Camino de Santiago de Compostela

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

Congratualions all with this innovative developement and thank you, Ivar and your staff, for just doing it! Wonderful! A great day!

I'm searching for the historical sources describing how and when the Jewish Jacobus (was) converted (in his lifetime?) into a Catholic Saint. Could anyone give exact locations in texts?

Thank you very much!
Geerτ

PS: Continued in http://the-santiago-enigma-continued.blogspot.com

[TerryB]

The only 'historical text' that I know is Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, l Corinthians 15 verse 7. From the order given of the appearances by Paul it would seem that James had a 'revelation' all to himself. Tradition says that he 'came to faith' at this point. No other evidence that I know of.
That's the history bit!
The spirituality of the writing of St. Paul and St. James is more interesting! Being British I should naturally tend towards Palagianism, I can do 'good works' because the Spirit of God dwells in all - and doing good works leads to re-generation which leads to eternal life. The reality may be that Paul and James emphasise different sides of the same coin.
I await with interest the results of your question.

Terry

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

The only 'historical text' that I know is Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, l Corinthians 15 verse 7. From the order given of the appearances by Paul it would seem that James had a 'revelation' all to himself. Tradition says that he 'came to faith' at this point. No other evidence that I know of.
That's the history bit!
The spirituality of the writing of St. Paul and St. James is more interesting! Being British I should naturally tend towards Palagianism, I can do 'good works' because the Spirit of God dwells in all - and doing good works leads to re-generation which leads to eternal life. The reality may be that Paul and James emphasise different sides of the same coin.
I await with interest the results of your question.
Terry

Wonderful, Terry; it works! In a minute I'll take my tiny army bible from the sixties to the beach and start reading! Please give me more exact texts locations on your last paragraph!
You'll be the first to know if and when I find something really new!
Regards,
Geerτ

[TerryB]

I will try but I am not really a theologian!!
The Letter of James chapter verses 22 and 27. "Be doers of the word and not hearers only . . . . Religion that is pure and undefiled . . is this; to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world". All very 'Jewish' - keep the commandments and all will be well ? I believe that Luther called the Letter of James 'a right strawy epistle'!!
Paul is more interested in the 'how' rather than the 'doing'. The Letter to the Romans chapters 1 through 11 are about what God has done in Christ. The turning point is Romans 12 verse 1 and the word 'therefore'. Because God has done all this for us - therefore we should . . . .

I think James presumes that his hearers are Christian believers - Paul sets out to teach The Way to anyone who reads his letter.
The question as always for me as a pragmatic Yorkshireman is 'Does it work?'
Blessings
Terry

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

'Does it work?'

Yes, this shows it: you got me studying the Bible! Off now to the beach; need 2 reading glasses now for the small army bible print. Till tonight in a PM for detais. Thanks again!

[Br. David]

Don't forget that there were three with the name James - the letter of James was written by James the brother of Jesus, who took over and became the head of the original 'church' (if you can yet call it that) after the 'empty tomb' in Jerusalem - so he was an Aramaic Jew writing for mainly Jews in Jerusalem, (he was later murdered in Jerusalem at the order of the high priest during a short gap between Roman governors).
He was called 'James the Just' and was the one of which it was written "James was the brother of Christ according to the flesh" - he was not the James of spain.

Then there was James, son of Alphaeus, one of the disciples, and of whom almost nothing is known (linking with James the Just is erroneus and was done as a method of divorcing Jesus from any possible brothers and sisters).

'Our' James, James the Greater, was the first to be marytred (Agrippa 1 and by the sword). This James of Spain was James the Greater, son of Zebedee, one of the 'sons of thunder' with his brother John, and the first disciple of Jesus .. so the singular appearance recorded by Paul was most probably to the brother of Jesus, James, as the disciples have already been mentioned. Though it could have been to another James of whom we know nothing and who has since fallen through the net of history.

One of the problems of the Iberian mission before his return to Jerusalem and murder is that there are no early church references to it ... there are references to Thomas having a mission to India and so on but not James to Spain. This does not mean he didn't do it- absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence after all. I'm not sure but I think the first refrences are from the 7th century ..



(thinks: is this not history?)

[michael]

Have look in newadvent.org and search under St James.

regards
Michael

[TerryB]

If our James was brother of John and one of the first Apostles (which is the accepted tradition) then surely as all the Apostles are 'Catholic' (i.e. universal) saints there is no need for the question in the first place?

Terry

[Br. David]

Await an answer but I think he meant when did he become a Roman Catholic Church saint .. there wasn't a Roman church at the beginning and not for a long while after that either - (well, not one in supremacy anyway).

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

Don't forget that there were three with the name James

(thinks: is this not history?)

Thank you very much, Brother David! I'll collect all your comments and those of others, which are all very much appreciated, in an attached Word document. After a while we'll try distilling a short and simpel answer to the short and simple question.

Even a joint conclusion that there is no widely accepted explanation emerging from the mists of time could be good and respectable and then we could close this file in peace. At work that happened all the time. For now: the quest goes on.

Regards,

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

newadvent.org and search under St James

Thank you very much, Michael!
Your link * produced 10 hits so it will take some time to examine them all.
They'll be on the list and the quest goes on!
Regards,

* http://www.newadvent.org/utility/search ... ID%3A9#911

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

there is no need for the question in the first place?

That's a very clever one, Terry, and -to be honest- that's exactly what I've been thinking all the time but people kept arguing. Can we all agree on this? And if we do, would then the simple answer be: there is no answer? Or shall we try a little harder and continue our quest? Surprise me again!

PS: To disclose a little secret prematurely: I believe (for what it's worth) that this who's who gets a whole different perspective reading King. I would love to start that discourse with a few afficionados in perhaps another place when the time is right. It could be most rewarding!

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

Thank you again, Brother David, but why do I have this feeling that you already know a short answer...
Regards,

[Br. David]

Oh crikey - no .. no answers at all .. very deep and murky waters .. though I'm looking forward to seeing what sort of fish are pulled out of it ...

[Priscillian]

I got back from Santiago late last night and thought I'd take a quick look to see what you all have been up to, and I find this WONDERFUL GIFT of a sub-forum!
Am looking forward to see all that transpires...
Tracy Saunders
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com

[TerryB]

If we are looking at the 'enigma' of St. James as presented by the Portico de Gloria, should we not be thinking like those who designed and carved it? My reading of the background to the epistle of James points to the Corbey manuscript of the 10th Century. that says in a subscription to the Epistle 'Explicit epistola Iacobi filii Zaebedei'. It seems that a whole series of Spanish writers from the 7th. to the 17th. centuries were 'led by national patriotism to claim the Epistle for their Apostle and patron St. James'. The Council of Trent sat on the fence and merely insisted that the Epistle was the work of 'the Apostle James'. Is it too much to suggest that Master Mateo (or who-ever) thought of James as 'brother of the Lord' and carved the family likeness . . .
Maybe I am an Anglican heretic..
Blessings
Terry

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

Is it too much to suggest that Master Mateo (or who-ever) thought of James as 'brother of the Lord' and carved the family likeness

Good question! If we could find the iconographic program for the Pórtico de la Gloria -it must be resting in some library in the Vatican, at Cluny or in some monastry along the Camino- we would know whether Mateo's commissioners had that intention or that they left such a great and powerful message -with all due respect for his genius- to the architect. Could it simply be a coincidence? Time to take King back to the beach.
Nice stuff for a thesis!

[Priscillian]

While I was in Santiago I went to a bookshop called Follas Novas (OK in Castellano but sounds a bit rude in Castellano - it comes from a poem by Rosalia Castro)and there met the delightful author of El Pórtico de la Gloria: Autor e Interpretacion whose name is Rafael Silva Costoyas. Don Rafael was the Director of the Centre for Jacobean Studies in Burgos and also a professor at the Seminario Menor. He has studied in Salamanca and more laterly in Rome. He is now retired but spends his time amongst the wonderful stacks at the bookshop. I have an inscribed copy which I am gradually making my way through although as Master Mateo was somewhat after my area of research (1075 - 1150) I have not come across anything which answers our questions as yet. But if you read Spanish you might like to check it out. It is published by Follas Novas/Monte Casino, 1999
Tracy
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com

[Priscillian]

I am posting updates on this topic on my blog at http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com
Much as I would like to I doubt that I'll have the time to duplicate them here (I am busy working on the sequel to Pilgrimage to Heresy, tentatively titled just "Compostela") but if you would like to visit, I will put the kettle on!
Tracy Saunders