Donativo: A Dead Idea?

[Deleted member 3000]

The paradox of being donativo and resenting those who leave nothing mystifies me. It is as if they are trying to be seen as nice people, but really are not. If you want 8E to be able to keep a place open, then charge 8E up front. No one is expecting a donativo bocadillo. A bed should be the same. That is just my opinion; I could be wrong.

 

[peregrino_tom]

I'm told that if you are 'donativo' the authorities allow you to operate a simpler/friendlier system for financial affairs/taxes etc. This assists volunteer-run refugios that might not otherwise have the capacity/finance to operate. Many of these places wouldn't be able to afford to exist without explaining to pilgrims that there's a difference between 'donativo' and 'free'.

 

[oursonpolaire]

On more than one occasion, I have had to mention to fellow pilgrims that they were mistaken is saying that the albergues were free, and one did not have to pay. While this happened with only a few, I was perplexed to see the glee with which they said this. To be fair, they seemed to have no idea how the albergues were run or financed, and one was genuinely shocked when he heard that most of the hospitaleros were volunteers who had paid their own fare from other countries, or who were locals who had been donating their time for years.

 

[Tia Valeria]

Asking for a minimum 8€ donation seems perfectly reasonable to me. Apart from any registration/tax impications I think that charging 8€ would limit the amount received from pilgrims able to be more generous. Even more difficult if all costs then have to be factored into the amount charge which would no doubt rise fairly quickly. There will always be those who think they should receive everything 'free' without realising that actually some-one, some-where, has given time or money to make it possible.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

The paradox of being donativo and resenting those who leave nothing mystifies me. It is as if they are trying to be seen as nice people, but really are not. If you want 8E to be able to keep a place open, then charge 8E up front. No one is expecting a donativo bocadillo. A bed should be the same. That is just my opinion; I could be wrong.

And with this comment for me Falcon is absolutely right in his analysis. I realise this may be controversial but I have come to the conclusion the "donativo" operation in albergues is largely an outdated sham which serves the needs of those who operate it more than those who they seek to serve.

It is claimed that the "donativo principle" is a vestige of the medieval pilgrimage when monasteries and churches offered shelter to pilgrims and only ever expected a donation. This, they say, is the tradition they are trying to maintain. Laudable and altruistic in appearance and yet we find it isn't really "give what you can if you are moved to do so as a voluntary donation" it is: "Don't give and we will moan on pilgrim forums and facebook about how mean some pilgrims are."

How do you define a donativo? Some organisations like the CSJ instruct their hospitaleros on arrival to ensure that they ask (sorry - invite!) every arriving pilgrim to make a donation before they get into the albergue. Apparently in Miraz they are now suggesting a sum. Invitations, emotional pressure...call it what you want but in reality it is charging in disguise.

I believe in charging. The medieval system of donativo existed in a world where the Catholic Church was richer than many countries, where monasteries and churches were the economic centres of towns. The church was even more loaded then than it is now. Donativo was the medieval way, social enterprise is the contemporary way. This is where organisations provide goods and services to their market not for private profit but for the benefit of the community. They run like businesses but with a different ethos. To my mind this is how albergues should be run - charging what they need to provide decent services, being transparent about their finances and honest in their charging policy. Put up a sign: " Last year we accommodated XXX thousand pilgrims. We provided clean beds, hot water etc etc. This cost an average of xxxx euros per pilgrim - therefore our admission charge is xxxx euros" of course they can also ask for donations and support which pilgrims should consider if the service is good.

Donativo is often the excuse for shoddy, second best services. The Secretary of a leading pilgrim organisation is on record as saying, "If we charge they will expect hot water and complain if there isn't any." I rest my case.

Many a rip off is being perpetrated under the guise of good works. Take credenciales, Pilgrim Passports: the Pilgrims Office provides these for 1 euro each to associations then we find that some organisations charge 10 euros for the credencial or more if you have to take out a membership subscription to get a credencial. These organisations need to maintain themselves but I believe they should do so by attracting members because of the range and quality of services they provide not because they have a monopoly on credencial sales.

Anyway, my rant is over. I hope we can have a temperate discussion about this issue.

Regards

John

 

[Kanga]

I have some sympathy for establishments wanting to help those genuinely unable to pay. I can understand why they do not want to charge outright. But I agree, nominating a sum one is "expected" to pay is not really any different from charging and it's disingenuous.

A bit off topic, but we've been to a few weddings lately. Should the wedding present we give be worth at least as much as was paid for our meal and drinks? What if we can't afford it and would not normally choose to spend that? Sometimes these things are a minefield to negotiate.

I like things to be clear and unambiguous. Honest and open. I'm a great fan of the French system that requires every establishment to post up their charges (the real ones) for everyone to see.

 

[jpflavin1]

I believe I am in John's court on this one. Figure out what it costs to run the place appropriately and charge that amount. I do like having a hot shower.

That said, there are some who walk and can not afford to pay. There are also some routes so lightly traveled, (San Salvador, Vasco etc.) that would have to charge much more to cover their costs. One of the nicest Albergues I have ever stayed in was Cabanillas on the Salvador. It is only 16 km from Leon and I doubt 50 people stay there a year. The place is immaculate and has hot showers (pop. 20). They charge 5 euro's. This can not even begin to cover costs. The Albergue in Buiza is the same. The people in these towns are also very welcoming. A women in Cabanillas came to the Albergue and brought me to her house for dinner. She would not take any money from me. I tried to leave money under my plate and she came down to the Albergue to give me money back and wagged her finger at me. I left money in the Albergue when I left early that morning.

This issue, Donativo or not, falls into the 85% rule. Eighty-five percent of us can afford to pay the cost required to operate the Albergue on Camino routes like the Frances, Primitivo, Norte and maybe the VdlP and Portuguese. Fifteen percent will have difficulty doing so. Therefore, some accommodation can/should be made for them. How to determine who is eligible? Could they provide some small service? Could those who can afford to pay a little more do so?

The more remote routes potential solution could more difficult. The minimal number of Pilgrims makes the charge decision difficult. On both the Salvador and Vasco, I did not see another Pilgrim. While the Towns/Villages on these routes are very welcoming to Pilgrims, there is no way a 5 Euro charge can cover maintenance and upkeep. Most of these Communities, in my experience, take pride in having an Albergue and supporting Pilgrims.

I am not sure if my comments have helped or hindered this conversation. I just know I love walking the various Camino's and hope the infrastructure that is there will last another thousand years.

Thank you to the Spanish people and all who support the Camino.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[johns]

i met three guys on the lisboa to porto camino route in 2012 who stayed if poss every night with the bombeiros moaned about being asked for a donation by one fire station they felt it was there right to stay for free.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

JW, you cut me to the quick. This is a tough issue that could use a good hashing-out.

My house is donativo. We don´t ever tell anyone what it costs to keep them, because we honestly never figured that out. I do not feel like I am running a sham or a scam, although I am guilty as charged when it comes to moaning when obvioulsy well-off people take advantage of us.

It is pretty awkward, making it clear that indigent pilgrims are welcome to stay without paying anything, while the tourigrino in the next bed ought to put something in the box. I do not know how to do that gracefully. I don´t say anything to the pilgrims, and sometimes they take a free ride -- and then I am frustrated!

So... what do I do? (Aside from stop moaning when people take advantage.) It occurs to me that money is indeed a corrupting influence. I should just leave the albergue business to the professionals, or take a vow of poverty and accept only pilgrims who are obviously penniless.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Rebekah - My intention was to raise the issue for debate because I think the economy of the Camino routes is changing anyway. I recently walked the Via de la Plata from Seville 7 years after the first time I walked that route. Things were much different. Municipal albergues such as in Guillena now provide a really good facility but have changed from donativo to a charge of 10 euros. There has been a massive growth in private albergues - all with set charges and very good facilities. Then there are the municipal albergues with no toilet paper, no heating and no care for pilgrims. In Monasterio the new Parochial albergue has a set charge of 10 euros. And the hoteles and hostales are becoming more competitive - the Hotal Malaga is advertised in the Patoshial Albergue in Monasterio - it offers a 25 euros special for pilgrims in single or twin rooms - bed, (with private bath and towels and sheets), dinner and breakfast.

So let's debate the donativo issue - it isn't about individuals. I've told you privately and I'll say here publicly that I have the greatest admiration for the ministry to pilgrims you and Paddy provide. I could not do what you do. I could not answer the door of my own home and be prepared to offer, bed, food and a lot of care to whoever is standing on the doorstep. You are very special. But the issue isn't about that...it always boils down to, "what do we do about the pilgrim who has no resources?". The argument being we must keep donativo facilities for everyone because there might be people who can't afford to pay and we couldn't possibly discriminate.

My own experience is that I have met very few pilgrims who driven by a desire to follow the spiritual search have decided to make the pilgrimage even though they have no resources. Those few I have met have been inspiring. I think we need to change the ethos of the camino - people think they are entitled to a donativo bed no matter their personal resources. That can't be right - the "pay if you can" places should be cherished by all of us on the basis they are reserved for those who need them and we should create the expectation that those who can pay will pay and that it is ok for the very small number who genuinely can't to say so.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Charge everyone, then give back the money to the indigent (as you identify them)?

 

[Bajaracer]

Charge everyone, then give back the money to the indigent (as you identify them)?

I agree, charge everyone.
Charities are helped with MONEY
Schools are built with MONEY
Hospitals are built with MONEY
Albergues are built with MONEY, the maintenance, utilities, and the other costs all take MONEY!

 

[peregrina2000]

As someone who has been born and bred in a hard driving capitalist economy, I have always found the "donativo" albergues to be frustrating. I would hope that what I pay is enough to keep the albergue in business and making a decent profit. But I can't figure out what that amount is, and I rely on the owners to make that calculation. But if they are donativo, they don't do that for me, so I am left to have to guess what that might be. And, as a good capitalist, I don't like paying for someone else who can perfectly well pay his/her own way but is just too cheap to do it.

I have walked with many who don't give (or who give very little) in donativo albergues --some of them are freeloaders, but if they are told how much to give, they will give it.

I very much like having the freedom to give to my favorite charities, but I very much don't like having to try to figure out how much I should give when I sleep in a bed on the Camino.

 

[Deleted member 22638]

I was fortunate not to have financial issues on my Camino and the average low cost of a bunk and pilgrim meal helped in this regard

In donativos ; I would give what I took to be the normal rate for accommodation and food , which covered my expenses , I then doubled it so that it could cover another who could not ( or would not) pay.

The open money box at Granon. - "leave what you can, take what you need" was for me a statement of faith.

Not many donativos presented themselves on my pilgrimage and I would guess the total sum of my donations were approximately equal to the cost of my boots

Given that much of what the Camino shows us is the joy in providing and receiving small kindnesses, I considered staying in, and helping fund donativos , just one other way of experiencing this

 

[Tia Valeria]

.......................
Many a rip off is being perpetrated under the guise of good works. Take credenciales, Pilgrim Passports: the Pilgrims Office provides these for 1 euro each to associations then we find that some organisations charge 10 euros for the credencial or more if you have to take out a membership subscription to get a credencial. These organisations need to maintain themselves but I believe they should do so by attracting members because of the range and quality of services they provide not because they have a monopoly on credencial sales.

Anyway, my rant is over. I hope we can have a temperate discussion about this issue.

Regards

John

I can sympathise with this, but have to say that although CSJ UK does charge for membership and only gives free credenciales to members it offers much more. They produce their own (approved) credenciales which we love and there are very many other benefits of membership. If folk are charging large amounts for the 1€ credenciales then maybe the authorities should refuse to provide them with further copies? People can always choose whether to be members or not of an organisation/confraternity -personally we joined for reasons other than getting free credenciales, they are a bonus. However I would be upset if charged 10€ for the 1€ type - Oviedo Cathedral charges 1.50€, but then gives free access to the Cámara Santa (also free if you already have a credencial).
Donativo - I already commented..........
Happy ranting Johnnie

 

[jpflavin1]

I believe we have hijacked this thread. That said, this is one of the better discussions on a relevant topic. It is just under a heading that will not get as much feedback. Would it be possible to move the bottom 2/3's of this discussion to another heading?

Joe

 

[Susannafromsweden]

I believe we have hijacked this thread. That said, this is one of the better discussions on a relevant topic. It is just under a heading that will not get as much feedback. Would it be possible to move the bottom 2/3's of this discussion to another heading?

Joe

Actually I've been thinking about splitting the thread.
I will do it right now.

Update: ok now I have moved it. And the new thread title as suggested by Reb..

 

[Rebekah Scott]

How about "Donativo: a Dead Idea?"

 

[lynnejohn]

Donativo has never been my preferred way of paying for anything. It irritates me that I am subsidizing the service someone else receives when they are equally, or more capable than me of paying a fair price. I am never assured that I am also subsidizing those truly in need. Therefore the concept and original spirit of donativo is a false one with no useful function today.
These days there are too many people looking for a free ride anywhere they can get it because of the "more for me" attitude.
Charge a fair price to maintain adequate service.
Donativo: A Dead Idea is an appropriate motto for this change.

 

[Deleted member 22638]

The donativo model appears under pressure due to donations being insufficient to provide a modern service

Much of the pilgrim objection to donativos appears to be the risk that one's donation,which would sustain the Alberque, would then be taken advantage of later by individuals who could afford to pay, in addition to the genuine needy.

Perhaps a solution would be that all Albergues should charge and in addition add a % surcharge or a suggested additional donation to cover a % of individuals who cannot pay

That way all Albergues become open to the needy, who though, would no longer be able to be anonymous. Of course if one's understanding of the Camino is of a holiday trek then this might seem ridiculous.

My experience at Granon was that donations from pilgrims, and I assume the community itself must have covered those who gave little or nothing as it continues to thrive.

I would also bet that in Carrion the Sisters would not charge a genuine pilgrim in need though they happily publish a rate for the rest of us.

I do hope donativo accommodation persists as I have encouraged several young people to go on a Camino and answered the problem of cost with a cheery "pay what you can" at the donativos

 

[Pilgrim-S-414]

What would you suggest (particulary those of you who had experience with running albergues)
would be the fair donativo amount to leave for pilgirms on a budget?
5, 8 , 10 € ... ?
From the latest albergue list I found under resources the lowest cost for a albergue bed (those that charge) is 5 € and there are quite a few of those.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I also prefer to have someone tell me what they're charging.
And honestly, to say people without money would be shut out just doesn't compute?
If people can afford to fly to Spain, taking off time from work, I feel they could afford another €6-€8 per day x 33 days = about €200-€300 for lodging?
I've seen many homeless people on the Camino lately - one lady I met last year had been "living on the Camino" for 3 years, staying only in donativo places or her tent.
Maybe leaving the decision to the hospitalera/o as to whether or not to admit someone "donativo" might work?
Or maybe it would just open another can of worms.
I don't know the answer…
I guess that's the bottom line.

 

[jpflavin1]

The paradox of being donativo and resenting those who leave nothing mystifies me. It is as if they are trying to be seen as nice people, but really are not. If you want 8E to be able to keep a place open, then charge 8E up front. No one is expecting a donativo bocadillo. A bed should be the same. That is just my opinion; I could be wrong.

Falcon has a valid point.

JW, you cut me to the quick. This is a tough issue that could use a good hashing-out.

My house is donativo. We don´t ever tell anyone what it costs to keep them, because we honestly never figured that out. I do not feel like I am running a sham or a scam, although I am guilty as charged when it comes to moaning when obvioulsy well-off people take advantage of us.

It is pretty awkward, making it clear that indigent pilgrims are welcome to stay without paying anything, while the tourigrino in the next bed ought to put something in the box. I do not know how to do that gracefully. I don´t say anything to the pilgrims, and sometimes they take a free ride -- and then I am frustrated!

So... what do I do? (Aside from stop moaning when people take advantage.) It occurs to me that money is indeed a corrupting influence. I should just leave the albergue business to the professionals, or take a vow of poverty and accept only pilgrims who are obviously penniless.

I can also understand Rebekah's frustration. Opening your home to everyone and anyone is something I would probably have a difficult time doing. I applaud Paddy and you for your welcoming spirit. Your home, support of the Camino and hospitality are an oasis on the Meseta.


The problem here is not to throw the baby out with the bath water. There, imo, is a need for Donativo for some Pilgrims. There is also a need for education of those who can pay to pay.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[tomfriesen]

I have served as a hospitalero voluntario paying my own way to get to Spain and often for my food while I am on station for a half month in an albergue. All but one of the ten postings I have worked in have been donativos. I treasure the system of openly giving hospitality to pilgrims without regard to what they contribute to the donation box. The hospitaleros voluntarios service intentionally intends to be an exemplar of hospitality. We feel we have the opportunity improve the welcome everyone receives in all albergues across the Camino in this way.
Certainly there are issues of keeping albergues open when total donations are half of what they were before "la crisis". However, as a hospitalero I do not need to worry about this or even know who has contributed and how much. When I walk out of the albergue as a pilgrim and stay at the next donativo, I give what I would be charged for comparable service in a private albergue often 20 Euros or more. But that is just money, the experience found in donativos is priceless.

 

[indyinmaine]

Rebekah - My intention was to raise the issue for debate because I think the economy of the Camino routes is changing anyway. I recently walked the Via de la Plata from Seville 7 years after the first time I walked that route. Things were much different. Municipal albergues such as in Guillena now provide a really good facility but have changed from donativo to a charge of 10 euros. There has been a massive growth in private albergues - all with set charges and very good facilities. Then there are the municipal albergues with no toilet paper, no heating and no care for pilgrims. In Monasterio the new Parochial albergue has a set charge of 10 euros. And the hoteles and hostales are becoming more competitive - the Hotal Malaga is advertised in the Patoshial Albergue in Monasterio - it offers a 25 euros special for pilgrims in single or twin rooms - bed, (with private bath and towels and sheets), dinner and breakfast.

So let's debate the donativo issue - it isn't about individuals. I've told you privately and I'll say here publicly that I have the greatest admiration for the ministry to pilgrims you and Paddy provide. I could not do what you do. I could not answer the door of my own home and be prepared to offer, bed, food and a lot of care to whoever is standing on the doorstep. You are very special. But the issue isn't about that...it always boils down to, "what do we do about the pilgrim who has no resources?". The argument being we must keep donativo facilities for everyone because there might be people who can't afford to pay and we couldn't possibly discriminate.

My own experience is that I have met very few pilgrims who driven by a desire to follow the spiritual search have decided to make the pilgrimage even though they have no resources. Those few I have met have been inspiring. I think we need to change the ethos of the camino - people think they are entitled to a donativo bed no matter their personal resources. That can't be right - the "pay if you can" places should be cherished by all of us on the basis they are reserved for those who need them and we should create the expectation that those who can pay will pay and that it is ok for the very small number who genuinely can't to say so.

" . . . .people think they are entitled to a donativo bed no matter their personal resources. That can't be right -" is ABSOLUTELY right! The hospitality is certainly to be expected if they are genuinely offering shelter, but in return the pilgrim has to respect the Samaritan aspect and not walk by "on the other side." I did stay at a parrochialle albergue which on the one hand emphasized the need to make a donation but on the other hand, with NOTHING open in the town (no bar, no store, no nothing) offered nothing but a glass of water for those arriving at 2 PM with the temperature dancing around the 35C mark! That can't be right as well.

 

[JohnMcM]

Been musing this thread and it's sensitivity before replying. I would like to share my thoughts about Donativo's as far a I understand them.

I can easily see from some posts this is very personal area to comment upon, so, when you read this post please keep in mind I mean no offence and take no sides.

Foremost in my mind as I type this is my awareness I make an observation on something I am yet to personally experience.

Here are my thoughts;

In trusting for a respectful and fair Donativo = does that not manifest the spirit of the Camino?

In truly being unable to provide a Donativo = does that not manifest the spirit of the Camino?

In truly being able to yet not providing a respectful and fair Donativo = does that not manifest the personal change that might be found in the spirit of the Camino?

In promoting the Donativo tradition = does that not manifest the spirit of Camino?

In accepting the action or inaction of donation by a pilgrim at the time of Donativo = does that not manifest the spirit of the Camino?

Buen Camino

 

[freescot]

There are all sorts of people on the Camino and some who have no money do get turned away from albergues. The camino does need old-fashioned hospitality. What is essential is to avoid exclusion and I'm fear the Johnnie-Walker model, while reasonable, throws its weight behind our culture of "quality" and "standards" and "efficiency": it is a model which will succeed, but you need at least 200 euros spare in a month to be on such a Camino. In Spain just now there are many, often young people, who just don't have this. Rebekah's model is not a money-maker but, I suspect, comes from urgings of the heart that there must be ways of keeping the door open to everyone - and who knows who will walk through.

 

[peregrino_tom]

Dear friend
Well, I did it! I completed the Camino de Santiago and here I am in good old SdC! As you know it's been a long time coming. Well they finally awarded the Good Hospitality Kite Mark to an albergue in every major town and declared the whole camino network Quality Assured. So then I knew I was ready to go. It was really challenging as you'd expect walking so far every day in this strange country with amazing scenery. But I was really grateful for the new Kite Mark System. It meant I had no need to worry that I would not find a high standard of facilities and a hospitable welcome at the end of each long day. I was grateful to so many of the staff - and nearly all of them said 'You're welcome!' and 'Eres bienvenido!' as bilinguality is part of the Kitemark Standard. Mind, not everyone said it, so there's still a little room for improvement, but hey, it's just the first year!!

Funny, but I met quite a lot of old timers who walk this way a lot. They described the woeful state of the Way in years gone by. It seems that practically anyone could invite you into their home and there were quite a lot of places run by amateurs that weren't proper businesses! It seems they just asked you for a donation or 'donativo' - so you could stay the night there for free! But it was weird because no-one knew how much to give and sometimes you had to share the place with people who gave no money at all, even though they probably had some, which isn't fair. But all this has been sorted out now and there's a proper regulated system in place now, so you know exactly what you're paying for. And some of the old timers said they'd been campaigning for these changes for many years, but I guess they were too modest to accept any of my thanks and appreciation. The price deals are pretty good too, like a cheap small hotel and you can get great discounts from the chains. The old guys tell me that back in the day the camino was so cheap you got all sorts, like wandering people and penniless students and some that seemed a little bit crazee that didn't wash so often. Fortunately the new system seems to be keeping them away, so you can be pretty sure that you'll just meet normal people, most of whom know how to behave pretty well.

I have to tell you about this one old bird I met – she was a bit different, maybe a bit weird. She said she used to work in one of these donativo places (!!!). She was in this association that ran this place and each year she gave up some weeks from her summer to come over and look after the pilgrims that stayed. Sometimes she'd cook for the pilgrims and sing songs but a lot of the time it was cleaning everything every day and sorting out the pilgrim's feet and their other problems, but some of them became her friends.

I asked her why she did it and she said that one time on her first camino in a cold November she came to a little place to stay the night with no bar or shop. And it had a basket at the door which said 'Give what you can, take what you need'. And the night before the people had only left a few euros so the meal for the pilgrims was a soup made from one cabbage with some bread. But everyone took out all their precious reserve foods from their packs – even though they didn't know where the next shop was going to be - and loaded up the table for everyone to share. She said that the sign 'give what you can' had stayed with her – and with many of the others that night too. She felt something special that evening which changed her and something about the way she saw what was possible in the world. And since then she's tried, but not always succeeded, to 'give what you can'. And that led her in the end to volunteer to look after other pilgrims on the camino. I asked her if there were still places like that, but it seems not any more. But there's one place in Finisterre she said (where I'm going next) that used to be called Casa Miguel in the old days and now it's registered as an albergue. She says they still ask for a donation for the evening meal, that everyone sits on the floor holding hands in a circle and give thanks before they eat (LOL!!!). Still, I'm passing that way in a few days, so I might look in and see what it's all about. I'll let you know.

Ultreya! - it's what the old lady says.

 

[richeyboy]

I am finding that I am getting lost in following this thread. Number 1: If you don't like the idea of donativos, don't go to them. Number 2: what has what anybody chooses to pay got to do with anybody else- it is none of our business. Number 3: pay what you think it is worth irrespective of what anybody else pays; if you are rich pay a lot, if you are poor what you can afford (the rich will cover for you) and if you have nothing just give your presence as a pilgrim - what more could other pilgrims ask? Is there not a basis for the concept that leaving the customer to pay what is considered a fair price is the best way of pricing anything? If they pay too much so what and who knows they might even value more what they buy and if they pay too little there will soon be no product - just like donativos. Personally I think donativos are a great institutions because they make us all think about the issues of giving and supporting those less well off than ourselves (however little we have); in other words that part of out lives that involves giving rather than taking and receiving. And I also think that the being a hospitalero lies at the heart of pilgrimage and I hope to be able to do it myself one day soon.

 

[Kanga]

I find it hard to feel Christ-like towards free-loaders - and I'm not just talking about money. It's "the world owes me and I deserve it" that bugs me.

Facilities needs money to operate. Those who can afford it should at least pay for what they receive. In the spirit of the Camino, a little more. I favour set charges, with a notice somewhere to the effect that if you have no money approach the hospitalero for discrete help in waiving the fee.

If that is the case then try to give in other ways. I have no talents and am always delighted when someone pulls out a guitar and sings a song, or rushes out a quick sketch, or creates a delicious meal. To me that is just as valuable as money. Use your imagination and initiative to "give back" if you cannot pay with money. Everyone can do something; do the washing up, offer to clean the bathroom, weed the garden, paint the fence, be a shoulder to cry on, give your host a massage, keep your fellows amused with funny stories. Even the disabled kids I see in my work repay overwhelmingly with their glorious smiles and obvious joy. They can light up my day.

Reb, I don't know what you can do because I understand the spirit that underpins your hospitality. I guess the bottom line is that charity stops when the money runs out.

 

[lynnejohn]

The sad truth is that each person does not give according to his/her conscience. In many cases, there is no conscience. Many people are not kind, or magnanimous, or give according to their own gifts on the camino or elsewhere. Leaving the administrative and operational costs of running an albergue to this kind of selfish philosophy is just foolhardy.

 

[AJ]

My own experience is that I have met very few pilgrims who driven by a desire to follow the spiritual search have decided to make the pilgrimage even though they have no resources. Those few I have met have been inspiring.

I have met only one. An elderly Spanish gentleman who had walked from his home in Andalucía to Santiago and was continuing to Rome. I met him on the Via Francigena. He did not beg, but he did let his situation be known.

In my view donativo is for such people as he and not for those wanting a cheap holiday.

 

[freescot]

Dear friend
Well, I did it! I completed the Camino de Santiago and here I am in good old SdC! As you know it's been a long time coming. ....................................

Ultreya! - it's what the old lady says.

Thank you, Tom.

 

[lettinggo]

Hola

Personally the donativo system of the caminos was one of the highlights for me.
It is very rare to be offered something precious without cost and I understood it as being part of an old tradition where the provider would ask the pilgrim to pray for the provider or someone they knew, once the pilgrim reached Santiago.
To this day, it is one of the practices of Buddhist monks; to offer prayer for food.
It is not only the receiver who benefit from this arrangement, but as well the provider.
In many religions it will be seen as a sign of compassion and means to build bridges between people, by inspiration.

On my caminos I always payed for my stays at donativos, but I did meet pilgrims who was not able to, as they did not have the means. One of these pilgrims would plan ahead for donativos and monasteries, and at one occasion he asked the nuns for some leftover bread to eat, which was provide to him.
Needless to say, all the pilgrims at the dinner table shared their food with him which he gracefully accepted.
There is no shame in being poor.
The ascetic living is part of all religions.

Of course the majority of pilgrims I meet had sufficient funds and it is difficult to balance a system based on the few versus the majority.
Maybe some donativos could set a fixed charge, but be open to provide free shelter if a pilgrim asked for it?
That way each and everyone would have to state the need of assistance, but that may also result in shameful feelings for the one asking.
I think the subject is a difficult one to find an answer to, and therefor I choose to think of the ones who need the donativos to be able to complete their pilgrimage.

Buen camino
Lettinggo

 

[Metropolly]

Donativo is often the excuse for shoddy, second best services. The Secretary of a leading pilgrim organisation is on record as saying, "If we charge they will expect hot water and complain if there isn't any." I rest my case.
John

Services? When someone opens their home to you, they are not providing services. There are plenty of establishments along the Camino and elsewhere in the world where you can be guarantees excellent services. A donativo albergue is not one of them. Why should it be? That is not the point

 

[Kerstinh47]

Hi~
This is an informative and provocative thread for me - I did a possible-walking-map in anticipation of my first camino (beginning mid May 2014), and whilst doing that found myself wondering precisely what donativo means to the pilgrim and to the provider. Though there are competing opinions, ideas, and information expressed here, it all helps to clarify for me what it means to both pilgrim & refuge. I am anticipating a spiritual journey in which I hope (as well as many other facets) to give, grow, have gratitude, and get goose-bumps in my experience of being a human. So thank you.

Looking forward to getting started ~
Kerstin

 

[JohnnieWalker]

How do we keep the donativo ideal alive? Would have been my preferred title for this new thread and I thank everyone who has contributed so far for a really stimulating discussion.

My own position is that "the donativo ideal" however it is expressed in reality must be kept alive if the Camino is to remain open to everyone including those who are less well off, young people, free spirits and those colourful eccentrics who enrich the landscape.

My argument in favour of charging or moving to a different model is not about closing the doors of the Camino to those who can't afford to pay it is about struggling to understand and respond to the changing economic situation on and off the camino which it seems to me is placing the future of donativo facilities in doubt.

First off let me say I am not talking about the few individuals who open their homes to pilgrims on a donativo basis. It is their home and they can do what they want - and thank God for them.

But what we are seeing is that the organisations, churches and confraternities who run donativo albergues are struggling to survive financially. Traditionally donativo albergues have had to be subsidised by the members of these organisations because not all of the costs of refurbishment, care and maintenance can be paid out of the donations. This is becoming very difficult indeed and so what we are seeing is church albergues for example now charging and others that remain "donativo" actively soliciting donations and even suggesting how much should be "donated".

For there always to be places for those who cannot afford to pay I think the only way ahead must be to charge those who can afford to pay. I'd like to suggest a system of "cama pendientes" - like cafe pendiente where you pay for your coffee and you also pay for the coffee of someone else who you don't know who will come after you. Therefore when we arrive at an albergue those of us who can pay are invited to pay the charge of say 8 euros and we are also invited to make a minimum donation of say 2 euros to support those pilgrims who cannot pay.

Some will say this means that a pilgrim with no resources is going to have to ask for free admission or a reduced fee. What is wrong with that? All they have to do is ask to speak to the hospitalera privately and explain their position.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

In a world that has become a constant up-sell, it is refreshing for someone to offer a donativo anything. It is a quaint reminder that net profit is not everything, and of the Christian charity that once was a nearly universal part of the Camino. Until that last few decades, the Camino was not a tourist attraction; it was a religious pilgrimage. Virtually all the other "free" offers I get are designed solely to entice me to empty my wallet in some other way. I like the donativo albergues. I don't like the faux donativo albergues. They remind me too much of the free keychain I am offered if I will visit the Caribbean jewelry store.

 

[sillydoll]

After walking to Santiago 3 times and always seeking out the more up-market, modern albergues, I decided in 2007 to choose 10 of the most popular, spiritual, traditional albergues to stay in. Nearly all were donativo, many had no beds, some no electricity and a few no running water or toilets. They were all memorable!
I suspect that these are the 'soul of the Camino' (as described by Prof Rudolph Conrad) which still follow the Benedictine rule of welcome. (A good example is Jose Luis in Tosantos who is totally disinterested in the donation box!)
The majority of people, reading in the guide book that these albergues have 'no beds, no electricity, no running water' avoid them anyway.

"Donativo" has never meant "Gratis" but many guide books and websites still perpetuate the idea that there are 'free' albergues on the Camino routes in Spain. EG:
www.galiciaguide.com/Albergues.html
"Some but not many are free, some want a small donation, but most have a fixed rate..."

On one of the Camino Forums the advice was that: ".. to stay in the free albergues you will need a credencial"

The Way of St James by Alison Raju claims that ".... many [refugios] are free of charge but you should still offer to pay..."

Then you have the misconception that all hospitaleros are paid by the Spanish government. http://www.pnelsoncomposer.com/camino/albergues.html
The Hospitalero/a - Is paid by the Spanish government and runs the albergue. The hospitalero does everything from checking in pilgrims (and stamping credentials), to cleaning and handling emergencies.

Hospitlaeros serving in donativo albergues are not paid anything, don't expect anything, not even food.

I don't think I would serve, or encourage others to serve, in albergues that charge. If they charge, they can afford to pay volunteers to help out.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Sil - the reality is that many albergue who charge (including municipal and voluntary) use volunteers because they don't generate enough money to pay staff - unless they put their prices up to a level which is almost that of a hostal.

Some donativo albergues don't have sufficient income from pilgrim donations to pay the volunteer hospitaleros their weekly food allowance + the running costs + any refurbishment. That's my point!

 

[sillydoll]

I understand what you are saying John but I think there are two kinds of donativo albergues. There are the dwindling traditional, donativo albergues that were established when Don Elisa Valiña Sampedro was put in charge of refuges for pilgrims at the Jaca conference in 1987, and then there are the modern donativos that have been discussed here, set up to bypass restrictive regulations and red-tape. Perhaps there are too many albergues and permission is too easily given for new ones to be constructed?

This is not on subject, but last year, a wonderful albergue owner was in tears, crying on Adrian's shoulder, because a brand new albergue had been built almost on her doorstep in one of the smallest hamlets (wiki lists 13.48 residents) on the last 100 km stage to Santiago.
There are two albergues in the hamlet and after conducting a feasibility study in 2010 on the number of pilgrims and the required number of beds, they spent a considerable amount of money to improve their albergue and opened a new wing with two new dormitories, ablutions and a common room in 2011. Now with the new albergue opened right in front of them, they don't attract enough pilgrims to cover the mortgage bond they took out to pay for the new wing. If there aren't enough pilgrim stopping there in the high season (end of May) why was a new albergue allowed to open there?

Secondly, numerous people (many ex-pilgrims) move to Spain to live on the Camino. After a year or two of seeing pilgrims pass by their front door they decide to apply for albergue status, convert a room into a 5 or 6 bunk dorm, set a charge of €8 or €10, and start soliciting pilgrims as they pass by. A nice little bit of income in the season. But when the novelty wears off and they find the constant chores of caring for pilgrims a bit tedious, they appeal for volunteers to help them, claiming that they are providing a service to pilgrims. One such house owner asked me to send volunteers to his albergue and was quite pissed off when I told him that I train people to serve in the HOSVOL supported, donativo albergues, not in private homes. (Obviously Reb, you are not included in this scenario!)

 

[LTfit]

I have been following this thread with great interest as it is a topic that I hold close to my heart. I feel quite strong about maintaining the traditional, donativo albergues as the parrochial albergues in Viana, Grañón and Tosantos amongst others. Maybe that is why I have volunteered my time on two occasions and hope to do so again in the future. My fellow hospitalero Tom (#24) put it quite well. It is not my concern- or even business - how much is given. I actually do not even want to know because I find it irrelevant. I do my 'job' because I chose to do it and this has nothing to do with money. So How do we keep the donativo idea alive? Help by volunteering. Give back what you can and educate others. I don't have the answer but am not ready to give up on this tradition- not yet. But then again I do not invite pilgrims into my home as Reb nor depend on the income to stay open.

I have had this discussion on many occasions, also with fellow hospitaleros and most recently this past February on the Vía de la Plata. I had a few long talks with Antonio Mateo Puente of the albergue in Zafra who started the albergue as a donativo but just couldn't cover his fixed costs. He now asks 12 euros including breakfast which is the standard fee for private albergues along the Vía de la Plata. He was apologetic about this, almost embarrassed. I also talked with the young priest that runs the parrochial albergue in Monesterio. I mentioned to him my surprise that he was charging 10 euros and he shared with me the struggles that they were having covering costs, especially since the opening of a new municipal albergue and the fact that the ayuntamiento does not allow them to put up signs although the municipal can. They also do not receive money from the church. Renovations were made possible through parish donations. He did confess to me that although they charge, they will allow pilgrims without resources to stay with them when asked.

Thanks for keeping the subject alive.

 

[susanawee]

I have some sympathy for establishments wanting to help those genuinely unable to pay. I can understand why they do not want to charge outright. But I agree, nominating a sum one is "expected" to pay is not really any different from charging and it's disingenuous.

A bit off topic, but we've been to a few weddings lately. Should the wedding present we give be worth at least as much as was paid for our meal and drinks? What if we can't afford it and would not normally choose to spend that? Sometimes these things are a minefield to negotiate.

I like things to be clear and unambiguous. Honest and open. I'm a great fan of the French system that requires every establishment to post up their charges (the real ones) for everyone to see.

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments above Kanga..

 

[susanawee]

I believe I am in John's court on this one. Figure out what it costs to run the place appropriately and charge that amount. I do like having a hot shower.

That said, there are some who walk and can not afford to pay. There are also some routes so lightly traveled, (San Salvador, Vasco etc.) that would have to charge much more to cover their costs. One of the nicest Albergues I have ever stayed in was Cabanillas on the Salvador. It is only 16 km from Leon and I doubt 50 people stay there a year. The place is immaculate and has hot showers (pop. 20). They charge 5 euro's. This can not even begin to cover costs. The Albergue in Buiza is the same. The people in these towns are also very welcoming. A women in Cabanillas came to the Albergue and brought me to her house for dinner. She would not take any money from me. I tried to leave money under my plate and she came down to the Albergue to give me money back and wagged her finger at me. I left money in the Albergue when I left early that morning.

This issue, Donativo or not, falls into the 85% rule. Eighty-five percent of us can afford to pay the cost required to operate the Albergue on Camino routes like the Frances, Primitivo, Norte and maybe the VdlP and Portuguese. Fifteen percent will have difficulty doing so. Therefore, some accommodation can/should be made for them. How to determine who is eligible? Could they provide some small service? Could those who can afford to pay a little more do so?

The more remote routes potential solution could more difficult. The minimal number of Pilgrims makes the charge decision difficult. On both the Salvador and Vasco, I did not see another Pilgrim. While the Towns/Villages on these routes are very welcoming to Pilgrims, there is no way a 5 Euro charge can cover maintenance and upkeep. Most of these Communities, in my experience, take pride in having an Albergue and supporting Pilgrims.

I am not sure if my comments have helped or hindered this conversation. I just know I love walking the various Camino's and hope the infrastructure that is there will last another thousand years.

Thank you to the Spanish people and all who support the Camino.

Ultreya,
Joe

Joe, I echo your last sentence.....a HUGE thank you to the Spanish People....

 

[obinjatoo@yahoo.com]

This is such a great discussion. Not just because of the economics of operating a pilgrim's hostel. It opens up a whole can of words around issues like "faith", "entitlement", "privilege", even "penance" in some cases. Believe it or not for some folks this is a truly religious and/or mystical experience. I met some very poor and heart broken pilgrim's along the way looking for "something". I choose to believe that their journey is between them and their God, just as mine is. I also met wealthy cultural tourists who seemed to believe they deserve something because they had some money. Guess what folks, this scenario has not changed in 1500 years. It's not my place to judge any of them though I'd sure like to sometimes. What a waste of time and energy.
Did any body else meet David on that stretch between Leon and Astorga? The Spaniard had that old closed up red brick factory or farm. I don't know what it was but there he was cooking on a wood stove, providing free hot food, drinks, snacks and fruit and expecting NOTHING in return. He would not even touch the money donated in his basket. That is HIS journey. I was soaking wet and freezing that cold November day. I sat by his stove for hours drying off and warming up. What a gift!!! I'll never forget him or his kindness. It's my memory of that day that stands out not his ethic or what I ate but it was just in that moment that the Camino provided exactly what I needed in that moment... If that's not spirit and mystique of a pilgrimage then I don't know what is.

 

[mspath]

"If that's not spirit and mystique of a pilgrimage then I don't know what is."

How true, indeed. David is a very special man in a very special place. East of Astorga on the inland path after Santibanez de Valdeiglesias and before the Cruz de Santo Toribo is his simple place of perfection, the Casa de los Dioses. There on a vast plain with sweeping vistas west toward the last camino peaks David has set up a simple pilgrim oasis. Sheltered by a vast adobe barn partly covered with vibrant graffiti he offers a welcome seat and coffee, tea, juices, fruits and cookies to all who pass. All that he so willingly provides he has carried from the nearest village for there is neither water nor garden there. However what is most plentiful at David's is a special spirit and unconditional, selfless love.

Margaret Meredith

 

[naplesdon]

Wow, what a great thread my head is about to explode after reading some of these post.
I remember meeting a pilgrim who was robbed in Cizur Menor and he could not have been more thankful for the charity he received walking penniless to Logrono to collect money from the Western Union office. There was another guy I walked along side for several weeks in 2012 who was a retired Spanish solider and had an obvious issue with alcohol, I watched him start each day with a few drams of whiskey but then never saw where he spent his nights.
I have a great respect for the homeless in my town, they are the keepers of the stray dogs and live a simple, minimalist life and still somehow manage to buy a bottle of vin rouge every afternoon which reminds me of walking the Camino. When I returned last year, they bowed to me when they saw I was wearing a souvenir t-shirt from Finisterre.
My point being: there is a wonderful albergues on the Camino Portuguese in Lugar do Corgo at Casa Fernanda which is donativo. As I arrive at the home of Fernanda I was offer of a cold beer, there were 20+ pilgrims sleeping there that night, however she barbequed several of her chickens and poured us copious glasses of wine that she and her husband had made. We moved on to port and shared stories until late into the night. The next morning there was a hearty breakfast of eggs, etc.
How much?
No clue, but it was worth at least 50e. I hope most pilgrims left at least 20+.

 

[fraluchi]

How do we keep the donativo ideal alive? Would have been my preferred title for this new thread and I thank everyone who has contributed so far for a really stimulating discussion. My own position is that "the donativo ideal" however it is expressed in reality must be kept alive if the Camino is to remain open to everyone including those who are less well off, young people, free spirits and those colourful eccentrics who enrich the landscape.[...] But what we are seeing is that the organisations, churches and confraternities who run donativo albergues are struggling to survive financially. Traditionally donativo albergues have had to be subsidised by the members of these organisations because not all of the costs of refurbishment, care and maintenance can be paid out of the donations. This is becoming very difficult indeed and so what we are seeing is church albergues for example now charging and others that remain "donativo" actively soliciting donations and even suggesting how much should be "donated".

John makes a point which, whether we like it or not, is perhaps sadly true.
We can argue about what and how property owners should offer a "product" to pilgrims, but ultimately it's them who must face the bare truth of having to pay the operating costs. Today some "albergues" along the Camino Francés between Roncesvalles and Santiago are facing bankruptcy, not only because of "donativo" or "spiritual" issues. They lacked experience to calculate risks and financial factors involving the running of a "hospitality" operation.
As retired CFO of multinational hotel chains I have been amazed to see, in several instances, how emotions are dangerously opposing financial sense. And I am not referring to "profit"!
Additionally, as frequent Camino walker and past "hospitalero", I found that in "donativo" albergues the average daily "income" per head is less than what other "albergues" charge for similar facilities. I also notice that, as John rightly mentions, members of "donativo" organisations subsidise these "operations" with increasing difficulty.
We can't have the cake and eat it!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I have been contemplating this issue for a couple of days now. Big fun!

I am reminded of the meaning of the word "give." You give something to someone, you don´t follow him out the door to see what he does with it. You don´t snatch it back when the receiver is not looking. You don´t sit around later wondering if the person was worthy.
You hand it over. You let it go. The gift stops being yours, and becomes theirs.

Hospitality works that way too. When I attach conditions to my hospitality, I become judgemental and cranky. If I second-guess the motivations and conscience and behavior of the people who stay with me, I am signing up for frustration and bitterness. I cannot read peoples´ minds. I must take them at face value, and treat each one with equal dignity, no matter how much or how little he is worth by this world´s standards.

Giving is not an exchange. It is a simple handing over, one person to the other. I purport to be a Christian, and my model is a person who gave up his very life for me, and doesn´t attach conditions to his grace.

And so, if I expect something in return for my hospitality, it stops being a gift. It becomes a transaction.

If the person staying here demands I give him a price, he is copping out, IMHO... he does not want to do the mental or moral math that attaches a value to his experience. He wants me to do his judging for him. It´s his money. He knows what he paid for his dinner and bed the last few nights... He knows the going rates, he is the donor, this is his decision, not mine.

I need to let go of my judgemental self, and just let the pilg struggle with the unpleasant business of making up his own mind, and hashing out his own issues with "giving." I need to accept whatever gifts I am given with good grace.

Meantime, if and when it becomes unaffordable or unpleasant, I will stop taking in pilgrims.
If I did not enjoy it, I would not do this.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

If the person staying here demands I give him a price, he is copping out, IMHO... he does not want to do the mental or moral math that attaches a value to his experience. He wants me to do his judging for him. It´s his money. He knows what he paid for his dinner and bed the last few nights... He knows the going rates, he is the donor, this is his decision, not mine.

I have dozens of guests in my home each year. I would never expect compensation from them for my hospitality, and I would never have them second guess me as to the value of what I have given.

Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Flowers and fruits are always fit presents; flowers, because they are a proud assertion that a ray of beauty outvalues all the utilities of the world. These gay natures contrast with the somewhat stern countenance of ordinary nature: they are like music heard out of a workhouse. Nature does not cocker us: we are children, not pets: she is not fond: everything is dealt to us without fear or favour, after severe universal laws. Yet these delicate flowers look like the frolic and interference of love and beauty. Men use to tell us that we love flattery, even though we are not deceived by it, because it shows that we are of importance enough to be courted. Something like that pleasure the flowers give us: what ant I to whom these sweet hints are addressed? Fruits are acceptable gifts because they are the flower of commodities, and admit of fantastic values being attached to them. If a man should send to me to come a hundred miles to visit him, and should set before me a basket of fine summer fruit, I should think there was some proportion between the labour and the reward." A donativo albergue awash in roses and apples would certainly be a Christian place.

 

[Thomas1962]

Very interesting topic, thanks all! Was this all donativo?

Porto was in 2010 my first starting point of the camino, my first night was in Vilarinho. There were a few dressing rooms next to a communal sportfield. In one of these rooms were 5 bunk beds, there was a sink, a shower. It was all I needed to sleep. The key was at the pharmacy. No money was asked.
For the first time in my life I was in a place where a village made me feel welcome to pass and to rest, without seeing me as a potential paying consumer. No matter how much money I actually did have. It felt so rich to be in this world. Because it was my first camino night, it set my view on the camino. It made so much internal space.
I treasure this memory, ever since I walk the camino as a 'gifted' person. This start was being an 0-1 for the Camino. I owe the camino, no matter what other experiences I got later. I myself have been volunteering (still for only a small period) in an albergue in later years. I still feel gifted, also because 1000 of other camino experiences.

I'm aware that this might be a different donativo then the ones other people have in mind who have full food included.

I'm amazed by the storey of the priest mentioned before, especially by the fact that he was not allowed to put up a sign because other people/municipality had invested in another place to sleep. Free offering is made difficult by people who want/need money. So business has the first right of existence, before hospitality?

There is a weird thing in the present economic (state)model. If I make a simple shelter where people can stay and I ask for money, it will be a part of economic growth. If it is possible for me to make a simple shelter where people can stay for free, and a volunteer is helping me (and lets say all places in the camino will be like that), it is considered as economical downturn, just because the exchange of service is not counted anywhere in red tape. Back to my first night at the Portuguese, me feeling (and being) so rich did not add up any economic traffic and is therefore counted as an economic downturn compared with any paid service.
For me services we provide to each other and for ourselves (like writing on this forum) make me rich, but turns out to be an economic downturn. It prevents me from spending money in other places, I need less money, I need to work less for money (and can spend more time on the Camino...). I like economic downturns , I hope to cause it more.

All this discussion for me is about the fact that for any individual, giving and taking must be in balance. One simply cannot give more than one get. If we give more than we get, we burn ourselves down and come to a point of needing nourishment only. In the end, for anyone on the camino (pilgrim, hospitalero, beggar, volunteer) the matter is: leave what you can, take what you need.
Paying each other with money is a way to balance that, it prevents us from greediness and forces anyone to give. But it is also a system who leaves out many people who want or would like to contribute in any way (not the right permits, forbidden to put up a sign for donativos). The meanest thing about that system is that it needs a lot of people in it who have so much to offer but don't see a way to do so and are forced to take money from the community. It is called unemployment.

I can see the uneasiness of a donative system. How much can I take without giving back too little. Still, I love it, I believe that it makes us more rich all together, and rich we are.

 

[indyinmaine]

How do we keep the donativo ideal alive? Would have been my preferred title for this new thread and I thank everyone who has contributed so far for a really stimulating discussion.

My own position is that "the donativo ideal" however it is expressed in reality must be kept alive if the Camino is to remain open to everyone including those who are less well off, young people, free spirits and those colourful eccentrics who enrich the landscape.

My argument in favour of charging or moving to a different model is not about closing the doors of the Camino to those who can't afford to pay it is about struggling to understand and respond to the changing economic situation on and off the camino which it seems to me is placing the future of donativo facilities in doubt.

First off let me say I am not talking about the few individuals who open their homes to pilgrims on a donativo basis. It is their home and they can do what they want - and thank God for them.

But what we are seeing is that the organisations, churches and confraternities who run donativo albergues are struggling to survive financially. Traditionally donativo albergues have had to be subsidised by the members of these organisations because not all of the costs of refurbishment, care and maintenance can be paid out of the donations. This is becoming very difficult indeed and so what we are seeing is church albergues for example now charging and others that remain "donativo" actively soliciting donations and even suggesting how much should be "donated".

For there always to be places for those who cannot afford to pay I think the only way ahead must be to charge those who can afford to pay. I'd like to suggest a system of "cama pendientes" - like cafe pendiente where you pay for your coffee and you also pay for the coffee of someone else who you don't know who will come after you. Therefore when we arrive at an albergue those of us who can pay are invited to pay the charge of say 8 euros and we are also invited to make a minimum donation of say 2 euros to support those pilgrims who cannot pay.

Some will say this means that a pilgrim with no resources is going to have to ask for free admission or a reduced fee. What is wrong with that? All they have to do is ask to speak to the hospitalera privately and explain their position.

It's getting more difficult to do but several years ago here in the States when you went through a toll booth you could tell the toll collector you were paying for the car in back of you, not knowing who they were.

 

[Alyssa]

Very interesting topic, thanks all! Was this all donativo?

Porto was in 2010 my first starting point of the camino, my first night was in Vilarinho. There were a few dressing rooms next to a communal sportfield. In one of these rooms were 5 bunk beds, there was a sink, a shower. It was all I needed to sleep. The key was at the pharmacy. No money was asked.
For the first time in my life I was in a place where a village made me feel welcome to pass and to rest, without seeing me as a potential paying consumer. No matter how much money I actually did have. It felt so rich to be in this world. Because it was my first camino night, it set my view on the camino. It made so much internal space.
I treasure this memory, ever since I walk the camino as a 'gifted' person. This start was being an 0-1 for the Camino. I owe the camino, no matter what other experiences I got later. I myself have been volunteering (still for only a small period) in an albergue in later years. I still feel gifted, also because 1000 of other camino experiences.

Thomas, your post brings back happy memories of my childhood, when my parents and I lived in Burney, a small town that was a mail stop on the Pacific Crest Trail (2,663 miles from Mexico to Canada) in California. Every summer, my parents posted a flyer with our phone number on the bulletin board at the post office, inviting the backpackers to come camp on the grass in the beautiful backyard of our modest two-bedroom home, have a hot meal or two, shower, shave, and rest up before continuing their journey. The backpackers always played croquet or racquetball with me and shared their trail adventures with us all.

That lovely memory aside, not having yet done the pilgrimage, I cannot speak from personal experience about donativo albergues. But if they are truly meant to be "donations", my preference would be for the hospitaleros to post a sign to the effect of, "The cost of operating this albergue is approximately ___ € per pilgrim per night. Please contribute more if you can. No one will be turned away for lack of funds." (The "lack of funds" part, only if that is the case, of course.) Something along the line of JW's "cama pendiente" idea. There will be those who pay the exact amount, those who pay less (for whatever reason and which, I believe, is none of my business), and those who contribute a little bit (or a lot) more.

Basically, if there is an expectation of what each pilgrim should pay, just tell me what it is because the last thing I can imagine wanting to do at the end of a long day of walking is exercise my psychic abilities in an attempt to determine what it is is I am "supposed" to pay.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

the last thing I can imagine wanting to do at the end of a long day ... is exercise my psychic abilities

Isn't that an essential part of marriage????

 

[Saint Mike II]

It would appear that there are a good number of passionate pilgrims and they are roughly split for and against "donativo". Having not walked the Frances and only part of the VDLP its not something I can really judge in toto. But here is my E1 (in the old days it would have been 5c or 10c but inflation has caught up).
I respect the right of any/all albergue management to charge (or invite) a reasonable fee to cover their fixed costs. After-all they are providing a service and if that means a reasonable amount of hot water and clean beds then so be it.
As one who has to travel half way round the world to get to France or Spain, I would never use this to support an argument that I am entitled to a free clean bed and as much hot water for my shower as I want. On the section of the VDLP, that I walked, there are not many "donativo" albergue - the usualy fee was E10. So maybe the Frances is more in tune with the "donativo" tradition. Cheer and Buen Camino!

 

[Bajaracer]

I saw a posting from from another site, the Municipal Albergue in Santo Domingo de la Calzada is no longer a donativo albergue, it is now €7 for a bed. A great place.

 

[OzAnnie]

Thomas, your post brings back happy memories of my childhood, when my parents and I lived in Burney, a small town that was a mail stop on the Pacific Crest Trail (2,663 miles from Mexico to Canada) in California. Every summer, my parents posted a flyer with our phone number on the bulletin board at the post office, inviting the backpackers to come camp on the grass in the beautiful backyard of our modest two-bedroom home, have a hot meal or two, shower, shave, and rest up before continuing their journey. The backpackers always played croquet or racquetball with me and shared their trail adventures with us all.

That lovely memory aside, not having yet done the pilgrimage, I cannot speak from personal experience about donativo albergues. But if they are truly meant to be "donations", my preference would be for the hospitaleros to post a sign to the effect of, "The cost of operating this albergue is approximately ___ € per pilgrim per night. Please contribute more if you can. No one will be turned away for lack of funds." (The "lack of funds" part, only if that is the case, of course.) Something along the line of JW's "cama pendiente" idea. There will be those who pay the exact amount, those who pay less (for whatever reason and which, I believe, is none of my business), and those who contribute a little bit (or a lot) more.

Basically, if there is an expectation of what each pilgrim should pay, just tell me what it is because the last thing I can imagine wanting to do at the end of a long day of walking is exercise my psychic abilities in an attempt to determine what it is is I am "supposed" to pay.

Hi Alyssa
What a gem of a comment!
I think you are 'spot on' - often there is the queue on arrival at the albergue,to get stamped and bed etc, and while people are sorting out what to pay; If a short sign with just the words you quoted, was put in a prominent spot where the meaning could be digested, it would help.
I'm with you regarding not wanting to be a psychic and determining a 'right' amount.
I would never take 'donativo' to read free, but sadly some people do. I've read/heard people say it was 'free'. In a new situation, in a new country for some people; they may believe this. Therefore the sign would be a teaching aid also. The quote does include that no one would be turned away! , in any event.

Aside from the comment, your childhood memories sound great. Did your family have experience of the pilgrimage? You grew up in a 'Camino like' environment . I enjoyed reading your post.
Annie

 

[Theo]

Hi,

In some associations in France we now replace the word "Donativo" by the expressions "Libre participation" or "Libre participation aux frais" / " Contribution to the organization costs" or "Free contribution to costs" ...

... that allows to translate the true current meaning of "Donativo" ?

Théo

 

[Kanga]

my preference would be for the hospitaleros to post a sign to the effect of, "The cost of operating this albergue is approximately ___ € per pilgrim per night. Please contribute more if you can. No one will be turned away for lack of funds."

Good thinking Alyssa. I like it.

 

[Scaughdt]

JW, you cut me to the quick. This is a tough issue that could use a good hashing-out.

My house is donativo. We don´t ever tell anyone what it costs to keep them, because we honestly never figured that out. I do not feel like I am running a sham or a scam, although I am guilty as charged when it comes to moaning when obvioulsy well-off people take advantage of us.

It is pretty awkward, making it clear that indigent pilgrims are welcome to stay without paying anything, while the tourigrino in the next bed ought to put something in the box. I do not know how to do that gracefully. I don´t say anything to the pilgrims, and sometimes they take a free ride -- and then I am frustrated!

So... what do I do? (Aside from stop moaning when people take advantage.) It occurs to me that money is indeed a corrupting influence. I should just leave the albergue business to the professionals, or take a vow of poverty and accept only pilgrims who are obviously penniless.

I think I can safely speak for all the many "penniless pilgrims" you have taken in over the years, Rebekah, by offering a humble-yet-hearty THANK YOU! How fortunate I was back in 2008 that I was led to your gracious door and that you chose to let me stay with you ...

Much peace to you this day,
Scaughdt

 

[Felipe]

I have enjoyed the discussion, and, specially, its tolerant and well thought character, so unusual in our times.
I like movies about Camino, specially the old ones. Some days ago I saw -again- the classic Luis Buñuel´s "La via láctea" ("The Milky way"), a fascinating, entertaining and very complex film, in the tradition of "road movies", about two pilgrims doing the way from Paris to Compostela, full of symbolisms (ok, it was the 60s...), with allusions to Scriptures, heresies, schoolchildren reciting dogma, the apparition of a vengeful angel, some touches of surrealism....every time I see it, i discover more things. But what this time struck me is that the pilgrims openly begged on the streets for spare money, food and, certainly, received lodging as an act of charity. Apparently it was considered a normal thing. And I remembered reading that being a pilgrim meant putting oneself in a condition of poverty, as an exercise of humbleness or penance, regardless the usual means and personal resources.
Some time on the way (literally) this changed, for good or for bad.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

And I remembered reading that being a pilgrim meant putting oneself in a condition of poverty, as an exercise of humbleness or penance, regardless the usual means and personal resources.

I now will ponder the ennobling characteristic of faking a condition of poverty.

I wonder if faking disability to get a better parking place would be character-building?

 

[Rebekah Scott]

...But what this time struck me is that the pilgrims openly begged on the streets for spare money, food and, certainly, received lodging as an act of charity. Apparently it was considered a normal thing. And I remembered reading that being a pilgrim meant putting oneself in a condition of poverty, as an exercise of humbleness or penance, regardless the usual means and personal resources.
Some time on the way (literally) this changed, for good or for bad.

This certainly was the norm for many years. The people who live in my village remember well the pilgrims who passed this way, sleeping on threshing floors and in doorways, knocking on doors to ask for scraps... But back then there were only two or three pilgrims each YEAR! Locals were often struggling to feed their families, but sharing bread and board was not a hardship when the need was so occasional and the beggar so exotic and mystical. (I´m afraid the traveling gypsies and "drummers" did not fare so well.)
Today, with hundreds of pilgrims pounding through town every day, there is little time or patience for "poor pilgrims." It´s assumed that anyone who can afford to hike for weeks at a time obviously has holiday time from his well-paid job!

 

[dreamwalker]

I have been contemplating this issue for a couple of days now. Big fun!

I am reminded of the meaning of the word "give." You give something to someone, you don´t follow him out the door to see what he does with it. You don´t snatch it back when the receiver is not looking. You don´t sit around later wondering if the person was worthy.
You hand it over. You let it go. The gift stops being yours, and becomes theirs.

Hospitality works that way too. When I attach conditions to my hospitality, I become judgemental and cranky. If I second-guess the motivations and conscience and behavior of the people who stay with me, I am signing up for frustration and bitterness. I cannot read peoples´ minds. I must take them at face value, and treat each one with equal dignity, no matter how much or how little he is worth by this world´s standards.

Giving is not an exchange. It is a simple handing over, one person to the other. I purport to be a Christian, and my model is a person who gave up his very life for me, and doesn´t attach conditions to his grace.

And so, if I expect something in return for my hospitality, it stops being a gift. It becomes a transaction.

If the person staying here demands I give him a price, he is copping out, IMHO... he does not want to do the mental or moral math that attaches a value to his experience. He wants me to do his judging for him. It´s his money. He knows what he paid for his dinner and bed the last few nights... He knows the going rates, he is the donor, this is his decision, not mine.

I need to let go of my judgemental self, and just let the pilg struggle with the unpleasant business of making up his own mind, and hashing out his own issues with "giving." I need to accept whatever gifts I am given with good grace.

Meantime, if and when it becomes unaffordable or unpleasant, I will stop taking in pilgrims.
If I did not enjoy it, I would not do this.

I so wish that I could meet you and stay at you lodging! Read you are "retiring" and well deserved. Wishing you many blessings and loved reading your words here today and past posts! Thank you!

 

[dreamwalker]

I have enjoyed the discussion, and, specially, its tolerant and well thought character, so unusual in our times.
I like movies about Camino, specially the old ones. Some days ago I saw -again- the classic Luis Buñuel´s "La via láctea" ("The Milky way"), a fascinating, entertaining and very complex film, in the tradition of "road movies", about two pilgrims doing the way from Paris to Compostela, full of symbolisms (ok, it was the 60s...), with allusions to Scriptures, heresies, schoolchildren reciting dogma, the apparition of a vengeful angel, some touches of surrealism....every time I see it, i discover more things. But what this time struck me is that the pilgrims openly begged on the streets for spare money, food and, certainly, received lodging as an act of charity. Apparently it was considered a normal thing. And I remembered reading that being a pilgrim meant putting oneself in a condition of poverty, as an exercise of humbleness or penance, regardless the usual means and personal resources.
Some time on the way (literally) this changed, for good or for bad.

Buying all the gear for this trek makes me feel like a hypocrite. Started out thinking I wanted to put myself in a "condition of poverty", receive what the Camino gives me and be thankful, to "live minimally and exercise humbleness" and drink in all that I can, being very thoughtful of others, praying for repentance and having quiet time away for the secular world to listen to my inner Holy voice. The money I've saved and will spend could have helped a lot of needing souls.. Sad, but in my town, beggars are found to be drug users and not to be trusted - it's a scam. Hopefully, I will know the difference if I see a homeless person on The Way. God has got me this far and I will continue to put full trust in Him. This journey I am about to face was meant to be.

Be nice if "La via lactea" has English subtitles! I'd like to watch it.

 

[JoeNYC]

While the bulk of this discussion occurred some time ago, I found it quite interesting and offer a few of my own thoughts:

1) if you offer lodging on a donativo basis, there will always be those who take advantage of your hospitality.

2) most people (including myself) have no idea what it costs an albergue to house a person for the night, so I have no reference point to gauge how much I should leave.

I provide professional services. Sometimes I provide them to my close friends and offer them gratis, but they insist on paying. In such a case I will tell them what I normally charge and let them know I don't expect the full amount and leave it to them to decide how much to pay.

I think it would be helpful if there was a sign (as someone earlier suggested) which advised what it cost to house a pilgrim. That way I would make sure I was giving the proper donation.

 

[Felipe]

Buying all the gear for this trek makes me feel like a hypocrite. Started out thinking I wanted to put myself in a "condition of poverty", receive what the Camino gives me and be thankful, to "live minimally and exercise humbleness" and drink in all that I can, being very thoughtful of others, praying for repentance and having quiet time away for the secular world to listen to my inner Holy voice. The money I've saved and will spend could have helped a lot of needing souls.. Sad, but in my town, beggars are found to be drug users and not to be trusted - it's a scam. Hopefully, I will know the difference if I see a homeless person on The Way. God has got me this far and I will continue to put full trust in Him. This journey I am about to face was meant to be.
Be nice if "La via lactea" has English subtitles! I'd like to watch it.

Well, in the 11th century the “esclavina” (or pellegrina), staff, and broad hat, were not used by most people in daily life, so they were probably an expensive, “high tech” equipment. So, buy the better equipment you can afford -it is a good investment.
You are probably to meet many people who have spiritual (not necessarily religious) motivations, who are “looking for something”, even when they (or maybe I should say, "we") are not sure what it is. Not that pilgrims are talking all the time about this; sometimes the issue comes after three or four days of walking with a more or less permanent group, "a family", as it happens frequently. And, obviously, many people are doing the Camino just for the fun of it, to know rural Spain, or meeting new friends from many countries. I have had very good walking friends, even a Spanish couple of marriages whose main motivation was gastronomic (they knew every advisable restaurant, and the good local wines; I went always to dine with them, until it became too expensive....)
Buen camino!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I so wish that I could meet you and stay at you lodging! Read you are "retiring" and well deserved. Wishing you many blessings and loved reading your words here today and past posts! Thank you!

I think the retirement is just from training hospitaleros. You probably can still arrange to stop!

 

[backpack45scb]

Thomas, your post brings back happy memories of my childhood, when my parents and I lived in Burney, a small town that was a mail stop on the Pacific Crest Trail (2,663 miles from Mexico to Canada) in California. Every summer, my parents posted a flyer with our phone number on the bulletin board at the post office, inviting the backpackers to come camp on the grass in the beautiful backyard of our modest two-bedroom home, have a hot meal or two, shower, shave, and rest up before continuing their journey. The backpackers always played croquet or racquetball with me and shared their trail adventures with us all.

A medley of thoughts on this issue. First, we have rarely stayed in donativos, only doing so when there was no other choice. Our thought has been that if we stayed in a donativo, we might take a bed from someone who really needed it and could not afford an alternative. We have also hiked the Pacific Crest Trail Alyssa speaks of, and there those who provide donativo like facilities, are essential, perhaps life saving. Nothing else is usually available. In recent years this trail has experienced tremendous growth, as has the Camino. With some of the newer hikers, there is a sense of entitlement. They may brag that they stayed at someone's place several days and didn't contribute anything to the donation box. However, I don't think anyone staying at a place with a donation box has any problem with what would be an appropriate amount. Those who don't contribute look at it as getting away with something. I think that same attitude is found on the Camino in most of those who don't donate.

I have had a fair amount of recent experience with kids in the pre teen age range, and my observation is that a sense of fairness is a fundamental feeling, established early in life and staying with us. Pay what is fair. If you have nothing, pay nothing, do something else, empty the trash, play the guitar, etc. You certainly know what you would pay in a pension in the next village. Look it up in your CFSJ guide. Compare the services, reduce/increase the donation appropriately. Come on!

Perhaps the donativos should have a standardized sign such as "Pay what is fair. Only God will judge you."

 

[Leaningforward]

Pardon if this question has been asked and answered in this thread.

If one wanted to make a donation at some future time after one completed the camino -- to supplement what one was able to leave on the date one departed a donativo -- is there a mechanism to do so?

I am thinking in particular of Granon, which was a remarkable stay for me in February.

 

[kmrice]

A medley of thoughts on this issue. First, we have rarely stayed in donativos, only doing so when there was no other choice. Our thought has been that if we stayed in a donativo, we might take a bed from someone who really needed it and could not afford an alternative."

If no one stayed at donativos except those who could not afford an alternative, they'd really go broke fast. We stayed in some and liked to think our donation helped those who could not afford to pay. No need for a sign about what the donativo's costs were; we contributed what we had at the last non-donativo and added what we wanted to contribute.

Karl

 

[Monk Moses]

Karl, that makes perfect sense to me!

 

[William Garza]

If i could add a Question, so please forgive my ignorance on the subject.

Is not the purpose of charity , to seek the "Fruits of charity .. Joy. Peace and Mercy? fostering reciprocity and remaining generous..it is friendship and communion."
Would not the folks who are providing these wonderful acts of charity, be receiving some inner joy at the giving back of the fruits of which their labors provide?
isn't it a cultural pillar there in Spain, socio-religiously, to..

To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To shelter the homeless
and
To counsel the doubtful
To instruct the ignorant
To comfort the sorrowful
To forgive all injuries
To bear wrongs patiently

have you all fortunate enough to have gone before, met ,felt or done the acts in kind?

"Give what you can, take what you need"
by reading the comments, sadly it looks like some providers of services have chosen to capitalize on a flow of income
while others look to keep the spirit of the Camino alive

I look at it like this
the magnitude of the gift
is proportional to the sacrifice
if the poorest of men, share the last scrap of bread
or give me the last of water
it is a gift without price

if those who have much, give with heartfelt sincerity
it is without price

if the gift is given as part of a job or obligation
then a fair price is paid

I see the Donativo system as being part of an older culturally ingrained tradition

too many uneducated questions i have given, again, please forgive my ignorance on the subject

 

[JohnG]

David

This is such a great discussion. Not just because of the economics of operating a pilgrim's hostel. It opens up a whole can of words around issues like "faith", "entitlement", "privilege", even "penance" in some cases. Believe it or not for some folks this is a truly religious and/or mystical experience. I met some very poor and heart broken pilgrim's along the way looking for "something". I choose to believe that their journey is between them and their God, just as mine is. I also met wealthy cultural tourists who seemed to believe they deserve something because they had some money. Guess what folks, this scenario has not changed in 1500 years. It's not my place to judge any of them though I'd sure like to sometimes. What a waste of time and energy.
Did any body else meet David on that stretch between Leon and Astorga? The Spaniard had that old closed up red brick factory or farm. I don't know what it was but there he was cooking on a wood stove, providing free hot food, drinks, snacks and fruit and expecting NOTHING in return. He would not even touch the money donated in his basket. That is HIS journey. I was soaking wet and freezing that cold November day. I sat by his stove for hours drying off and warming up. What a gift!!! I'll never forget him or his kindness. It's my memory of that day that stands out not his ethic or what I ate but it was just in that moment that the Camino provided exactly what I needed in that moment... If that's not spirit and mystique of a pilgrimage then I don't know what is.

As of June this year David is still there and many were the Pilgrims that left with full hearts and welling eyes.

 

[belladonna]

This certainly was the norm for many years. The people who live in my village remember well the pilgrims who passed this way, sleeping on threshing floors and in doorways, knocking on doors to ask for scraps... But back then there were only two or three pilgrims each YEAR! Locals were often struggling to feed their families, but sharing bread and board was not a hardship when the need was so occasional and the beggar so exotic and mystical. (I´m afraid the traveling gypsies and "drummers" did not fare so well.)
Today, with hundreds of pilgrims pounding through town every day, there is little time or patience for "poor pilgrims." It´s assumed that anyone who can afford to hike for weeks at a time obviously has holiday time from his well-paid job!

That is not a good assumption.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Most donativo albergues I stayed at were parochial, and a few private. All of them were my favorites, and all of them seemed to me to be donativo with spiritual rather than financial goals. I think it should be emphasized (in forums, guides, and books) that donativo IS NOT FREE. Pilgrims should assume that a going rate is about what is being charged at the other albergues in town. Add in a bit more for food. This does not take mental effort--we all know what we paid the night before, or what we'd have to pay if this place is full. If you are in true financial straights then donate a bit less--a bit. NOT nothing. Be honest, if this place were closed or full, you'd find a few euros for a bed elsewhere. If you can afford it, and you appreciated the spirit of the place, donate more. I paid as much at them as I did at a parador --and had a much better time.

 

[SYates]

For me the answer how much to give is easy. Most donativos offer bed, dinner and breakfast, so I give what I would normally spend on bed, dinner and breakfast in other places/albergues plus 'a bit extra' to help to keep the altruism alive and kicking ;-) Only one sad point - many times I really wish I could leave a really huge donation - sadly I am called Yates, but not Gates Buen Camino, SY

 

[sillydoll]

In Don Elias Valina's 'Pilgrim Guide to the Camino de Santiago'(1985 and 1992) there is a list of accommodation in the back of the book.
The first few pages list hotels, pensions, posadas, fondas etc.
Thereafter are a couple of pages with REFUGIOS OF THE CAMINO DE SANTIAGO. From Roncesvalles to Santiago there are 94 refugios of which about 43 are Parochial.
Shortly after the Spanish Federation of Friends of the Camino [AMIGOS] was formed, the Hospitaleros Voluntarios (HOSVOL) was started to train pilgrims to serve as volunteers in the donativo albergues in Spain.
I presume that most of the parochial refugios in Don Elias' book were donativo, the oldest being at Santo Domingo del la Calzada. When they started charging pilgrims a few years ago, HOSVOL no longer sent volunteers to serve there (ditto the monastery at Leon).
As of 2015, there are only 18 donativo albergues on the HOSVOL list. There are a handful others run by other organisations but I suppose one can say that they are dying out.

 

[KinkyOne]

.. the oldest being at Santo Domingo del la Calzada. ...

There are a handful others run by other organisations but I suppose one can say that they are dying out.

Well, in 2011 I remember that Dutch lady wouldn't let me in that albergue before I put (at least) 5€ in the box and that was supposed to be donativo I was quite excited about that at the time but when thinking of it now I kind of understand it. Althought it wasn't the right way to do it because donativo is donativo and it might be 2 or 13€. And I never eat communal dinner or breakfast...

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

three of my best memories ever: Domus Dei Foncebadon, San Miguel Estella, and Monastario Zenarruza (Ziortza)... does anyone know if they are still there? Are they still donativo? So sad if they are gone, or their spirit changed...and the communal meals were some of the best parts *for me*.

 

[MichaelB10398]

And with this comment for me Falcon is absolutely right in his analysis. I realise this may be controversial but I have come to the conclusion the "donativo" operation in albergues is largely an outdated sham which serves the needs of those who operate it more than those who they seek to serve.

It is claimed that the "donativo principle" is a vestige of the medieval pilgrimage when monasteries and churches offered shelter to pilgrims and only ever expected a donation. This, they say, is the tradition they are trying to maintain. Laudable and altruistic in appearance and yet we find it isn't really "give what you can if you are moved to do so as a voluntary donation" it is: "Don't give and we will moan on pilgrim forums and facebook about how mean some pilgrims are."

How do you define a donativo? Some organisations like the CSJ instruct their hospitaleros on arrival to ensure that they ask (sorry - invite!) every arriving pilgrim to make a donation before they get into the albergue. Apparently in Miraz they are now suggesting a sum. Invitations, emotional pressure...call it what you want but in reality it is charging in disguise.

I believe in charging. The medieval system of donativo existed in a world where the Catholic Church was richer than many countries, where monasteries and churches were the economic centres of towns. The church was even more loaded then than it is now. Donativo was the medieval way, social enterprise is the contemporary way. This is where organisations provide goods and services to their market not for private profit but for the benefit of the community. They run like businesses but with a different ethos. To my mind this is how albergues should be run - charging what they need to provide decent services, being transparent about their finances and honest in their charging policy. Put up a sign: " Last year we accommodated XXX thousand pilgrims. We provided clean beds, hot water etc etc. This cost an average of xxxx euros per pilgrim - therefore our admission charge is xxxx euros" of course they can also ask for donations and support which pilgrims should consider if the service is good.

Donativo is often the excuse for shoddy, second best services. The Secretary of a leading pilgrim organisation is on record as saying, "If we charge they will expect hot water and complain if there isn't any." I rest my case.

Many a rip off is being perpetrated under the guise of good works. Take credenciales, Pilgrim Passports: the Pilgrims Office provides these for 1 euro each to associations then we find that some organisations charge 10 euros for the credencial or more if you have to take out a membership subscription to get a credencial. These organisations need to maintain themselves but I believe they should do so by attracting members because of the range and quality of services they provide not because they have a monopoly on credencial sales.

Anyway, my rant is over. I hope we can have a temperate discussion about this issue.

Regards

John

John, this is a loaded topic and it is a good one to discuss honestly.

First, I believe in the concept of Donativos is perfectly appropriate for a pilgrimage such as the Camino. The concept directs that we serve the pilgrims and ask for a donation. Every pilgrim has stayed at other commercial types of Albergues and each knows the average cost of the service provided. A donativo is NOT and should never be confused with a free service. I have never met an imbecile walking the Camino, but I have met many a cheapskate. No one is so stupid as to think a donativo is free UNLESS you simply cannot afford it and then it is given freely, compassionately, and lovingly.

If someone is providing a donativo service on the Camino that does not mean that it should parade as viable service when the services are a pallet on the floor, no water, and no electricity - the shoddy service as you have rightly called it. That is another type of service - "Folks, if you want to sleep out in the garage or the barn, have at it" - that is not a donativo. That is a free service take it or leave it.

Some may call their service a donativo and it is only a rip off. This is not a Donativo.

A true Donativo demands that those providing the service are doing it in the Spirit of the religious Camino pilgrimage. As you have rightly identified , Rebekah Scott provides such a service. Yes, it would be ideal that these types of services could close their eyes completely to the pilgrims' donations and never comment on them.

Maybe a Donativo should list their expenses on the wall for dunderheads that really think that it is a free service. It is not and never has been free. There is a great deal of expense to running a donativo and every thinking pilgrim knows it. Give, give liberally, and give joyfully is the ideal. Serve, serve blindly and without reserve is the ideal.

I hope that there will always be places where the Donativo concept operates on the Camino. Maybe we need to have a more formal approach to raising funds to assist these operations? I will give this some thought. My career was in investment management and there are several viable instruments that could be created to do this. Maybe we form a work group to discuss this concept? I would be interested in participating and I believe, I think, I could actively raise funds for this purpose.

 

[VNwalking]

I missed this thread early on and am very happy it's been bumped, because it's an important topic.
And as one of those 'colorful eccentrics' who @JohnnieWalker was talking about, generosity is something I reflect about a lot. So please forgive what may be a long-ish post.

I live on faith and donations, and live a lot of the time in a Buddhist monastic setting that is supported by gifts. The context is very different-- people are taught generosity from infancy and it's a fundamental spiritual practice that everyone understands and does. There is no confusion or uncomfortable second guessing--people just give as generously as they are able. Some quite a lot, some only pennies.

But we in the West come from a different culture (capitalist, individualist, quid pro quo), hence the experience of discomfort in giving (and receiving but that's another story) that manifests in the many ways articulated on this thread.

So I think a big part of the answer to this question that JW poses:

How do we keep the donativo ideal alive?
...what we are seeing is that the organisations, churches and confraternities who run donativo albergues are struggling to survive financially.

Is not about the economics but about our own hearts and about educating ourselves and other pilgrims about generosity, because if everyone who could be was generous, there would be no issue.
And the issue is us--not the economy, nor the albergues.
As you said, @JohnnieWalker:

Some donativo albergues don't have sufficient income from pilgrim donations to pay the volunteer hospitaleros their weekly food allowance + the running costs + any refurbishment. That's my point!

This is sad--and perhaps a manifestation of the entitlement embedded in the mycaminoyourcamino attitude. But also perhaps it's just a lack of education--and a reflection that the culture of the Camino is changing under our feet:

In a world that has become a constant up-sell, it is refreshing for someone to offer a donativo anything. It is a quaint reminder that net profit is not everything, and of the Christian charity that once was a nearly universal part of the Camino. Until that last few decades, the Camino was not a tourist attraction; it was a religious pilgrimage.

This certainly was the norm for many years. The people who live in my village remember well the pilgrims who passed this way, sleeping on threshing floors and in doorways, knocking on doors to ask for scraps... But back then there were only two or three pilgrims each YEAR! Locals were often struggling to feed their families, but sharing bread and board was not a hardship when the need was so occasional and the beggar so exotic and mystical.
Today, with hundreds of pilgrims pounding through town every day, there is little time or patience for "poor pilgrims." It´s assumed that anyone who can afford to hike for weeks at a time obviously has holiday time from his well-paid job!

My heart agrees 100% with @sillydoll's observation about donativos (in bold below)--but can well imagine the communal generosity fatigue that Reb alludes to above.

I suspect that these are the 'soul of the Camino' (as described by Prof Rudolph Conrad) which still follow the Benedictine rule of welcome. (A good example is Jose Luis in Tosantos who is totally disinterested in the donation box!)

Here's the thing, and why I get passionate about keeping this tradition alive.
That soul of the Camino can wake anyone out of the slumber of entitled self-interest that our culture has lured us into--not only those walking for spiritual ends. Once people learn from their own experience the happiness that comes from sharing, another kind of self-interest takes hold--enlightened rather than entitled. It's self-interest that gives rather than takes. The camino is so good at teaching this--because when we walk, we begin to 'get it' that we're here to serve each other.

Taking generosity on as a spiritual practice (rather than an economic exchange) is one thing that does that so beautifully.

So here are some reflections for those of us who have taken on generosity as practice but struggle with the question, "How much???" (The answers are much more about us than about the external conditions: It's a practice, with no cookie-cutter right and wrong answers. This drives some people crazy. .)

• When you come to a donativo albergue you are staying in a place that has been created and is supported by the generosity of those who have been there before you. Your offering is 'paying forward', rather than a 'paying for.'
• Give what you are moved to offer--being generous, but not so much that you don't take care of your own budgetary needs.
  
• Asian teachings emphasize the joy of giving. It's not meant to be burdensome. Give what you are able to offer, and notice how it feels. If you notice fear that you might not be able to afford it, give a little less. If you know you can afford it but are hanging on...give a little more. That edge between holding back and letting go will shift the more you play with it.
  
• A very practical reflection: how much can you afford to pay for something non-essential, like entertainment (e.g., a round of wine and tapas, or the like)? Give at least that much.

Thanks for your indulgence everyone--this has been a long post!

 

[VNwalking]

And @Albertagirl just posted this elsewhere...a moving and beautiful testament to the worth of donativos (the bold is mine):

For me, walking the camino, as with most other things in life, was a learning experience. I learned most of what I know about the practical aspects of walking the camino from this forum. But I learned almost all of what I know about being a pilgrim from the parochial albergues. Some really poor pilgrims at Granon taught me what it is to travel in need and to receive in gratitude. An elderly hospitalero at the San Francisco de Asis albergue in Tosantos demonstrated joy in poverty by rejoicing at the large basket of small, bruised windfall apples which a local had donated that day, as he worked away at preparing them so the pilgrims could have a desert that night. If I could, I would stay at a donativo every night, and sleep on the floor, and eat the very basic fare, and cultivate a grateful heart.

 

[SYates]

... As of 2015, there are only 18 donativo albergues on the HOSVOL list. There are a handful others run by other organisations but I suppose one can say that they are dying out.

I did a bit of digging around yesterday and made a list of all the donativos on the Camino Francés and found 29 for 2016. Granted not all of them are open all year round, but still.
Buen Camino, SY

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Interesting this thread revives at this moment. In the last two days I've heard of one dearly treasured donativo albergue that's evidently "going municipal" under a new mayor, whose relatives want to run it; and
An initiative by private albergue owners and their friends in government to quietly pass legislation that legally FORBIDS those who offer pilgrim accommodation in Castilla y Leon to do so without charging a fee. Donativos are "desleal" competitors, they say. Ask your private albergue keeper if he is part of this initiative. They need to know we are aware of what is going down, and that "the common foreign pilgrimage clientele" really does care, that they're not just walking wallets.
As more wealthy tourists take to the trail, the hunger for their money is evidently reason enough to choke out whatever remains of the giving spirit that resurrected the camino in the first place. The rich get richer, the poor are sent back out to sleep in the streets.

We're checking into these rumors. Will let you all know if/when you can do something about it, if you are interested.

 

[SYates]

Yes please! Keep us up to date! Trying to make Donativos illegal is such so wrong in so many aspects. SY

 

[Vagabond Vieiras]

JW, you cut me to the quick. This is a tough issue that could use a good hashing-out.

My house is donativo. We don´t ever tell anyone what it costs to keep them, because we honestly never figured that out. I do not feel like I am running a sham or a scam, although I am guilty as charged when it comes to moaning when obvioulsy well-off people take advantage of us.

It is pretty awkward, making it clear that indigent pilgrims are welcome to stay without paying anything, while the tourigrino in the next bed ought to put something in the box. I do not know how to do that gracefully. I don´t say anything to the pilgrims, and sometimes they take a free ride -- and then I am frustrated!

So... what do I do? (Aside from stop moaning when people take advantage.) It occurs to me that money is indeed a corrupting influence. I should just leave the albergue business to the professionals, or take a vow of poverty and accept only pilgrims who are obviously penniless.

Hi Rebekka,
We purchased a large house on the Camino in la Portela de Valcarce just before the climb to Ocebreiro. There are a couple in the town before us and a few between us and the summit at Ocebreiro, but none in our immediate area. We hear from many pilgrims in the high season that everything is full and in winter that everything is closed between October and Semana Santa.
Our idea would be to install bunk beds and open up our upper 6 bedrooms on a donation basis to wayward pilgrims that are unable to find a traditional place to stay.
My question is... are there laws, regulations or norms attached to donativos or is it based on local rules? Where can I get information on this?...
Any help would be greatly appreciated!

David Vieira
Vagabond Vieiras Spain

 

[Rebekah Scott]

David I sent you a PM.