Cruz de Ferro Equivalent on the Camino Portuguese?

[Snowgen]

One of the scenes that really spoke to me in The Way was the scene at the Cruz de Ferro. That, of course, is on the Camino Frances.

Is there any equivalent customary location of symbolic unburdening along the Camino Portuguese?

 

[Diogo92]

Probably Cruz dos Franceses, in the stage between Ponte de Lima and Rubiães, almost in the top of the Labruja mountain.

 

[Diogo92]

This place:





This cross has the name of Cruz dos Franceses (French Cross). It’s an homage form the people from Ponte de Lima to the shepherds and french soldiers who died during the invasion of Portugal by the French Army (during Napoleon Bonaparte time).

The history says that, after the french troops suffered a defeat nearby Porto, they started to retreat north. A group of Portuguese shepherds waited for them on the hill, and entered in conflict with the troops. It was mostly a hand to hand fight, and man to man also, since the french soldiers didn’t had a lot of space to use their muskets. A lot of french soldiers died, and this it’s a way to honor them.

 

[Camembert]

This place:

View attachment 11779

View attachment 11780

This cross has the name of Cruz dos Franceses (French Cross). It’s an homage form the people from Ponte de Lima to the shepherds and french soldiers who died during the invasion of Portugal by the France Army (during Napoleon Bonaparte time).

The history says that, after the french troops suffered a defeat nearby Porto, they started to retreat north. A group of Portuguese shepherds waited for them on the hill, and entered in conflict with the troops. It was mostly a hand to hand fight, and man to man also, since the french soldiers didn’t had a lot of space to use their muskets. A lot of french soldiers died, and this it’s a way to honor the.

My friend. In Lisbon I started with two Nike sport gloves to protect my hands during walking with the poles. Not far from Santarèm I lost one. The left over one I left underneath this cross but now I see it has disappeared. Did you clean the place up ?

 

[Diogo92]

My friend. In Lisbon I started with two Nike sport gloves to protect my hands during walking with the poles. Not far from Santarèm I lost one. The left over one I left underneath this cross but now I see it has disappeared. Did you clean the place up ?

Yes we did. It was a mess, and a shame. People don't understand that by putting stones, clothes and other things in there (mainly trash! There was even a piece of underwear in there when they cleaned it), they are, first of all, almost destroying the Cross. Second, they are putting pressure on the terrain, with things that don't belong in there. And third, they are creating the perfect tinder for a forest fire to begin.

Don't get me wrong, I also laid one stone in there last year, but hey, imagine the following: the constant weight of small rocks, Tshirts and other things, made the top section of the cross separate from the T part. Now imagine that this would fall under someone. Who would be blamed?

 

[peregrino_tom]

Diogo - thanks for the back story.
This is how it looked in 2012.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/peregrino_tom/8220933182/in/set-72157632102494309
PS The brass plaque is in memory of an Australian pilgrim, Michelle Kleist, RIP.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/amgirl5/6282001229/in/photostream/
tom

 

[Magwood]

Yes, this place did feel special, and it was a day of beautiful walking. When were your photos taken Diogo? This is what it looked like in May.

 

[ranthr]

Yes we did. It was a mess, and a shame. People don't understand that by putting stones, clothes and other things in there (mainly trash! There was even a piece of underwear in there when they cleaned it), they are, first of all, almost destroying the Cross. Second, they are putting pressure on the terrain, with things that don't belong in there. And third, they are creating the perfect tinder for a forest fire to begin.

Don't get me wrong, I also laid one stone in there last year, but hey, imagine the following: the constant weight of small rocks, Tshirts and other things, made the top section of the cross separate from the T part. Now imagine that this would fall under someone. Who would be blamed?

Wish more pilgrims would think like that! The Cruz the Ferro often seems to me like a dump of garbage. Last time I went past it had been cleaned up. But people put all sorts of belongings there.

 

[Diogo92]

Diogo - thanks for the back story.
This is how it looked in 2012.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/peregrino_tom/8220933182/in/set-72157632102494309
PS The brass plaque is in memory of an Australian pilgrim, Michelle Kleist, RIP.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/amgirl5/6282001229/in/photostream/
tom

The plate was also removed. Since this it's considered a Monument of National Interest, such kind of thing could not be putted in there.

View attachment 11784

Yes, this place did feel special, and it was a day of beautiful walking. When were your photos taken Diogo? This is what it looked like in May.

Late March/Early April of this year. Last year pictures of June and July are even worst. And I see that we have to do a new clean up.

 

[Snowgen]

Probably Cruz dos Franceses, in the stage between Ponte de Lima and Rubiães, almost in the top of the Labruja mountain.

Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for!

Yes we did. It was a mess, and a shame. People don't understand that by putting stones, clothes and other things in there (mainly trash! There was even a piece of underwear in there when they cleaned it), they are, first of all, almost destroying the Cross. Second, they are putting pressure on the terrain, with things that don't belong in there. And third, they are creating the perfect tinder for a forest fire to begin.

Wait. Now I'm confused. Based on this statement, I feel like I shouldn't leave a stone behind.

 

[Diogo92]

Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for!



Wait. Now I'm confused. Based on this statement, I feel like I shouldn't leave a stone behind.

It's your choice. You do what you want to do. Nobody will forbid you of doing it. Just think about the consequences.

 

[whariwharangi]

Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for!



Wait. Now I'm confused. Based on this statement, I feel like I shouldn't leave a stone behind.

Take only pictures ... Leave only footprints.

With all the obsession with light packs ... why would you carry a rock from your garden (which is where it should stay)?

I walked the Camino Frances and I found myself being very annoyed at the memorabilia (aka garbage), piles of stones, and paint that do nothing but desecrate the place.

 

[amorfati1]

It's your choice. You do what you want to do. Nobody will forbid you of doing it. Just think about the consequences.

Amen to that Diogo ---- Just think about the consequences! (that would be valid off-caminho as well as on-caminho )

 

[Snowgen]

Take only pictures ... Leave only footprints..

That is, of course, hyperbole and not expected of any pilgrim. It is expected that I will take food and drink. It is expected that I will leave money and, um, "used food and drink". They say that pilgrims often leave things behind at albergues for pilgrims following behind. It is expected that such things will be taken (and left).

And, of course, on the Camino Frances, it is 100% acceptable, if not expected, to leave a stone at the Cruz de Ferro.

With all the obsession with light packs ... why would you carry a rock from your garden (which is where it should stay)?

That's like asking "Why would you want to walk to Santiago de Compostela? Just take a bus there."

In this case, it is a metaphor. A linkage of the physical to the spiritual. You burden yourself physically to represent a spiritual burden that you are carrying. Then, when you unburden yourself of the physical object, the spiritual burden is metaphorically left behind.

I walked the Camino Frances and I found myself being very annoyed at the memorabilia (aka garbage), piles of stones, and paint that do nothing but desecrate the place.

That seems very understandable. That's why I was asking is there's a generally accepted place on the Camino Portuguese for such a thing, as opposed to just imposing my wants onto the rest of the universe.

As it seems that there really is no such place, I think I shall scribe my burdens onto a piece of paper or some such thing, and carry that with me throughout my journey, eventually burning it in Finisterre (where I understand there a steel bowls set up for such burnings).

 

[Urban Trekker]

I used to tell my Boy Scouts, when you leave a camp site or picnic site leave it cleaner than it was when you got there. Leave Mother Nature right were it is, be it a rock, pine cone, or a stick , it's there for a reason. Leave nothing behind but foot prints and then only on the trail. Take only memories and pictures. If you must have a souvenir buy it at a gift shop. We are loving our parks and other national treasures to death. The Camino's are no exception.

Happy Trails.

 

[whariwharangi]

That is, of course, hyperbole and not expected of any pilgrim. It is expected that I will take food and drink. It is expected that I will leave money and, um, "used food and drink". They say that pilgrims often leave things behind at albergues for pilgrims following behind. It is expected that such things will be taken (and left).

And, of course, on the Camino Frances, it is 100% acceptable, if not expected, to leave a stone at the Cruz de Ferro.

That's like asking "Why would you want to walk to Santiago de Compostela? Just take a bus there."

In this case, it is a metaphor. A linkage of the physical to the spiritual. You burden yourself physically to represent a spiritual burden that you are carrying. Then, when you unburden yourself of the physical object, the spiritual burden is metaphorically left behind.

That seems very understandable. That's why I was asking is there's a generally accepted place on the Camino Portuguese for such a thing, as opposed to just imposing my wants onto the rest of the universe.

As it seems that there really is no such place, I think I shall scribe my burdens onto a piece of paper or some such thing, and carry that with me throughout my journey, eventually burning it in Finisterre (where I understand there a steel bowls set up for such burnings).

It is inexcusable to purposefully leave evidence of your passing through the land. Cruz de Ferro is a cairn that marks the height of land of the camino and nothing more. There is no historical evidence that leaving a rock there has any religious or spiritual significance whatsoever.

There is no metaphoric comparison linking the burdening with rocks with reasons for walking the camino.

I don't understand why people need to carve their initials or otherwise leave their mark (such as making piles of rocks on every flat surface) on the land.

I saw no steel bowls at Finisterre. I saw instead many fire pits scarifying the hillside where people have burned their garbage as if in some sacrificial rite. It took away from the exhilarating power of the place.

Leave the rocks at home. If you feel constrained through some pagan ritual to burden yourself, carry the rock and bring it home with you.

Or give us your address and I'll mail you a weeks worth of my household garbage and have a tire burned at the foot of your driveway. I'll just tell the fire department that its spiritual unburdening (or rather venting) of my spleen.

 

[Leaningforward]

With all due respect, this seems an obvious juncture for a moderator to announce this thread no longer provides valuable discourse. For my part, I will report that I carried a stone for a friend (who has an inoperable genetic malady that could strike her dead without warning), a scripture verse for a family member (going through a life-changing ordeal), and a stone for the mother of a hotel owner in Poblacion de Campos (who cared for me, while suffering herself from debilitating leg pain). As one who lives near the Appalachian Trail, and who is aware of and respects the "leave no trace" practice with respect to pristine wilderness, I do -- emphatically -- disagree with your assessment of pilgrims who leave stone and other items at Cruz de Ferro, which, to me, was a sort of living prayer. Choose yourself to leave there no footprint, but please refrain from judging others for following their conscience and best judgement.

 

[whariwharangi]

Its not about judgement ... its about education ... the science is in ... leave the place as you find it and quit trying to justify your poor choices by the actions of others who have acted improperly before you.

It shows a complete lack of consideration for others who will encounter your detritus forever.

If you can't refrain from defacing a place even by as simple an act as leaving yet another stone then perhaps you should stay home.

 

[MichaelSG]

Nonsense whari. I suppose you got to cast that first stone because you walked to Santiago from Canada without flying in one of those polluting airplanes. You drew your moral line in the sand in a slightly different place than the majority of others do. Whoop-di-do. It's still drawn in the sand and leaves a mark.

 

[Diogo92]

Guy's guy's, please stop. The thing is that the Cruz de Ferro it's a place with nothing around. No trees, no anything (except for the grass), very different from the Cruz dos Franceses, which is considered a National Monument, and which it's located inside a forest. But this don't mean that you can still put a stone in there, and walk way with your conscience clean.

I understand all the aspects that have been written in here, but think really in this: if you really care for somebody, pray for them. If you really care for something, pray for it, It's not because you travel with a stone, a t-shirt, a sign, a flashlight or whatever, that will help those people (although it might help you to remember them) in what they need.

Your faith it's enough for that. Not all the "cultural" and trendy practices are healthy. And do you think that, if it was really something important, that somebody would clean it? Do you really think that, if the church give it a religious meaning, that the stones would be removed every 2 or 3 years?

 

[Pelegrin]

From Wikipedia: When the Galegos went to Castille to reap, they put a stone in Cruz de Ferro asking for protection in their journey (heat, hard work) , following the milladoiro tradition in Galicia. That's why it's called Ferro (Galego) and not Hierro (Spanish) or Fierro (Astur-leonés).

 

[Diogo92]

Just to clarify the things, and I hope that this it’s the last time that I have to write something in here:

Has I’ve explained on the early part of this thread, Cruz dos Franceses it’s an homage from the people in Ponte de Lima, to the dead shepherds and French soldiers, who died in a fight that took place in that hill. The only connection that it has with the Caminho is that the Caminho pass 0,5m away from the cross.

Nobody knows who started this idea of depositing rocks and other things in there, but everybody agrees that this it’s a copy cat from what happens on the Camiño Francês, in the Cruz de Ferro. Once again, this is homage to dead soldiers and dead shepherds, not homage to pilgrims, nor a Cruceiro that marks the Caminho Português.

I will also warn you again, that Cruz dos Franceses it’s considered a monument to the views of Patrimonial Portuguese Law, and that all kind of action like depositing rocks, t-shirts, underpants, bottles, rosaries, etc are considered destruction and violation of state property, a crime punished by law with a fine. The Town Hall of Ponte de Lima had to pay a restructuration of the cross this year, from their pocket, because the top part was getting separated from the T part. Investigations made by the History Department of Ponte de Lima, say that the pressure made in the monument with all the rocks put on the top, made this.

If a forest fire begins because of the trash left behind, pilgrims will be blamed, you are warned!

Now that you know this (again!), take time, make your own considerations, and choose what you want to do. It’s your decision, but you are warned of the possible consequences.

 

[Camembert]

From Wikipedia: When the Galegos went to Castille to reap, they put a stone in Cruz de Ferro asking for protection in their journey (heat, hard work) , following the milladoiro tradition in Galicia. That's why it's called Ferro (Galego) and not Hierro (Spanish) or Fierro (Astur-leonés).

So he who is without sin ,casts the first stone !

 

[whariwharangi]

Nonsense whari. I suppose you got to cast that first stone because you walked to Santiago from Canada without flying in one of those polluting airplanes. You drew your moral line in the sand in a slightly different place than the majority of others do. Whoop-di-do. It's still drawn in the sand and leaves a mark.

So this kind of crap is okay with you ...


Figure 1. 100 km


Figure 2. Stone hut Poyo Roldan


Figure 3. Cairn at Cruz de Ferro

Fortunately these are worst case examples but unfortunately not the only sites where people have 'unburdened their souls'.

If I wanted to view a garbage dump, urban blight, or a gravel quarry I don't need to travel to Spain.

I'll suggest that you have a responsibility to prevent it from deteriorating further. So adjust your 'line in the sand'. Just cuz most of us don't have a problem with this crap doesn't make it alright.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Yes, except the spray paint.

 

[MichaelSG]

I say yes to #3 and you know what? I don't think that it's up to me to say that Falcon's opinion is wrong or "inexcusable" because he and I drew lines in a different place. Whari, I know you are allowed to ride a horse while doing your Camino but be careful of falling off the high one you are on.

 

[Diogo92]

I will start to leave my underpants in every Cruceiro that I found along the way. "In memory of the big chulleton of yesterday".

 

[Leaningforward]

Once upon a time we are told a small group of people disturbed the landscape to bury the remains of one whom they revered. Others came later and stacked stones on the site. Others came later and stacked many more stones to mark the site. The stacked stone could be seen for kilometers in all directions, and attracted still others -- millions of others, guided in recent history by arrows painted on trees, rocks, and other surfaces -- and in some places by new stacks of stones. Here is a recent picture of the stacked stone:

 

[Diogo92]

Once upon a time we are told a small group of people disturbed the landscape to bury the remains of one whom they revered. Others came later and stacked stones on the site. Others came later and stacked many more stones to mark the site. The stacked stone could be seen for kilometers in all directions, and attracted still others -- millions of others, guided in recent history by arrows painted on trees, rocks, and other surfaces -- and in some places by new stacks of stones. Here is a recent picture of the stacked stone:

View attachment 12020

So we should build a chapel, church or cathedral in every place where people deposit stones? Or, in that order of ideas, we could violate every old patrimony that exists, and don't give a damn about it.

For that way of thinking, we could open a new Wax Museum in Fátima, or build a cathedral with Wax, such is the amount of burned wax everyday in there. Since it's peoples way of thinking about somebody or something, we shouldn't clean it. Let all the wax stay in there.

Could somebody please stop talking about Cruz de Ferro, and speak about Cruz dos Franceses? It's what matters to here. This is about Caminho Português.

Thank you very much

 

[Leaningforward]

Diogo,

No one is advocating erection of new structures or shrines along the various ways to Santiago. Some, including me, are pushing back against the notion that no one ought to move or stack a stone along any of the ways to Santiago -- and the notion that one who would do such a thing is somehow thoughtless or reckless. The irony is that there would be no caminos or forum if people had not stacked stones to mark a site.

If one is concerned about the weight of stones stacked on the cross on the Caminho Português, then one may move those stones to the ground.

 

[Diogo92]

Diogo,

No one is advocating erection of new structures or shrines along the various ways to Santiago. Some, including me, are pushing back against the notion that no one ought to move or stack a stone along any of the ways to Santiago -- and the notion that one who would do such a thing is somehow thoughtless or reckless. The irony is that there would be no caminos or forum if people had not stacked stones to mark a site.

If one is concerned about the weight of stones stacked on the cross on the Caminho Português, then one may move those stones to the ground.

Or maybe nobody should do it, since it's forbidden. I’m saying this almost since the beginning of this post.

I don't have any problem for people to make those small piles, or has the one that the Town Hall of Ponte de Lima made with the stones that were over the Cruz dos Franceses (see the second picture above), I'm against people who do it on the top of a Monument, and that also lay trash and other things in the middle of that forest, that in the last 10 years, has already burned down 4 times. That's it.

For me, they could even do more piles every 50m. It would be a wonderful thing to recognize the Caminho in that zone. But don't leave stones in Cruz dos Franceses, neither trash.

 

[Diogo92]

Diogo,

No one is advocating erection of new structures or shrines along the various ways to Santiago. Some, including me, are pushing back against the notion that no one ought to move or stack a stone along any of the ways to Santiago -- and the notion that one who would do such a thing is somehow thoughtless or reckless. The irony is that there would be no caminos or forum if people had not stacked stones to mark a site.

If one is concerned about the weight of stones stacked on the cross on the Caminho Português, then one may move those stones to the ground.

And one other thing: you should see the comments from people when they know that the Cruz has been cleaned. Has if we were touching their souls, has if something that belonged to them, was taken from them.

 

[grayland]

Geeez...another thread closed because some could not respect the opinions of others.