Do I really have to suffer to be a 'real' pilgrim? - A Camino enthusiast's dilemma

[jefferyonthecamino]

cold showers, heavy backpacks, crowded dorms... does that make more of a pilgrim?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Yes.

 

[weekjchammings]

cold showers, heavy backpacks, crowded dorms... does that make more of a pilgrim?

You just need to get out of the house more often.

 

[LoneStar]

Getting to interact with interesting people from all over the planet, walking through northern Spain, having access to sit down toilets and showers every day, having mostly clean clothing and not having to carry a week’s worth of food in your pack, plus sleeping indoors…not really sure I would call that suffering. Some accommodations may be a bit more earthy than back home…stuff for interesting stories to share with friends. Suffering would be if they stopped serving café con leche, Spanish tortillas and vino tinto. Pouring down rain, muddy trails and some aches and pains are additional details for those interesting stories for back home. Have a wonderful time and Buen Camino.

 

[LoneStar]

Two, back to back nights of sleeping with a symphony of loud snoring may be classified as suffering...if the pilgrim refrains from yelling at the person snoring, mumbling rude things about their mother or thinking evil thoughts about them then this can be classified as true suffering.

 

[naplesdon]

No, walking for days in the cold Galician rain and never being able to dry out the contents of your overweight backpack due to the additional kilos of water it contains and then sleeping in a room full people who beat you there and left you no place to escape the dampness, odor and snoring; that's what makes you a true pilgrim. It will completely take your mind off taking that cold shower you are so worried about.

 

[xin loi]

You forgot to mention, "No Eating!" True Pilgrims don't eat on a pilgrimage! No drinking anything either!

 

[William Marques]

cold showers, heavy backpacks, crowded dorms... does that make more of a pilgrim?

No

 

[george.g]

Don't forget the sackcloth and ashes !

George

 

[wayfarer]

cold showers, heavy backpacks, crowded dorms... does that make more of a pilgrim?

No.

 

[newfydog]

The first documented pilgrim was Godescalc, the Bishop of Le Puy in 951. He travelled in style, with an entourage befitting a bishop. All the poor suffering beggars that followed were trying their best to emulate his trip.

A true pilgrim would stay in the historic paradors, not some albergue.

 

[mralisn]

Keep in mind absolute silence must be adhered to in order to be a real pilgrim.

 

[Mark Lee]

cold showers, heavy backpacks, crowded dorms... does that make more of a pilgrim?

Ha ha.......a resounding NO!!!!!!!!!!

How does that make you "more of a pilgrim"? Walk the Camino. Then you are a pilgrim. Does not matter where you stayed for the night along the Way, or what you ate for dinner or whether you got rained on. Walk your own Camino. For some I guess that entails some sort of self-imposed misery (why not just carry a set of lashes and flog yourself while you walk, ha ha) and for others it's just about the experience and enjoying it. I walked the Camino Frances last summer and it did not rain on me a single day. There was a little bit of rain a couple of nights, but that occurred after I was already in the albergue. Does that make me less of a pilgrim? No. Was I fortunate I stayed dry? Yes. And why carry a heavy backpack if you don't have to? That would be stupid to do so. Travel light. Enjoy the journey. Embrace it. It's beautiful and don't let the experience be fogged by stress fractures and sore knees and back.

Believe me, even the most basic of albergues on the Camino is not living primitive. Cold water when you shower is not austere. A bunk bed is not austere. Sharing toilets is not austere. As we said in the military, "three hots and a cot" and I'm happy. It's easy and cheap to always have "three hots and a cot" while walking the Way.

 

[Natasha Siemens]

I think honestly (and I am speaking purely out of anticipation) what will make you a true pilgrim is the inner journey you take. It's personal not some sweeping generalization. The snoring, the hostels, the rain, the suffering, are tiny details of what will surely be a grand adventure. Why not focus on all the growth and positive. Snoring means sleep, hostels mean shelter, rain means life, suffering means growth. There are alternatives to the crowded dorms. Embrace your inner hippie don't shower if you don't want the cold water, carry less if you don't want the weight. Its bound to be a great time! Enjoy yourself!

Buen Camino!!

 

[heidi1]

Haha I took a bus 3 km, may take one from Burgos to Leon too. Avoiding people who act like some kind of race and loud talkers. Stop and smell the roses. My vacation. I'm paying for it. It's whatever I want it to be. My Compostella will read the same as theirs.

 

[newfydog]

My Compostella will read the same as theirs.

The compostelle is the same for everyone, the credential full of stamps is all your own. I don't even know where that compostella is, but I love to look at all my credential books. I remember the great places, great trips going through them. Never intentionally tried to suffer out there.

 

[Tammi Murray]

cold showers, heavy backpacks, crowded dorms... does that make more of a pilgrim?

As always, I do have to disqualify my post by stating that I am still a would-be pilgrim [hoping for next year, but my own health issues (my doctor is tracking down the cause of my anemia) and that of my walking partner's father (she had to relocate to take care of him) post-poned our pilgrimage from being this year].

However, that said, I did just return from two weeks in Uganda last month. At no point did I consider my cold basin baths or simple accommodations "suffering". I was fortunate enough to hike an hour up the hills on two of the days to see the water tanks that I spearheaded the fundraising for. If you want to know about suffering, follow a bare-foot child in thread-bare clothes carrying a 5L jerry can of dirty water up to their mud and wattle home with a thatched or, if they are lucky, rusty tin roof.

Whatever choices one makes on the Camino are their own. A pilgrim travels for spiritual reasons. Some prefer a path of penitence, while others prefer a path of comfort. Some prefer to be around people, while others prefer solitude. Some appreciate, while others complain. Cold showers, heavy backpacks, and crowded dorms can all be avoided if one so chooses. And we do, after all, have the luxury of choice that many in the world do not.

 

[Natasha Siemens]

As always, I do have to disqualify my post by stating that I am still a would-be pilgrim [hoping for next year, but my own health issues (my doctor is tracking down the cause of my anemia) and that of my walking partner's father (she had to relocate to take care of him) post-poned our pilgrimage from being this year].

However, that said, I did just return from two weeks in Uganda last month. At no point did I consider my cold basin baths or simple accommodations "suffering". I was fortunate enough to hike an hour up the hills on two of the days to see the water tanks that I spearheaded the fundraising for. If you want to know about suffering, follow a bare-foot child in thread-bare clothes carrying a 5L jerry can of dirty water up to their mud and wattle home with a thatched or, if they are lucky, rusty tin roof.

Whatever choices one makes on the Camino are their own. A pilgrim travels for spiritual reasons. Some prefer a path of penitence, while others prefer a path of comfort. Some prefer to be around people, while others prefer solitude. Some appreciate, while others complain. Cold showers, heavy backpacks, and crowded dorms can all be avoided if one so chooses. And we do, after all, have the luxury of choice that many in the world do not.

This is absolutely stunning! I am in awe of your expression and experience! The luxury of choice is something all too many take for granted, myself included. Thank you for reminding me how lucky I am! I hope things work out for your postponed Camino! Best wishes.

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

no sarcasm was intended... just wondering.

i am guessing that back in the day, if you could afford it, you had hot baths (assuming you bathed) provided by servants, rode on horseback or carriage and ate well. now it seems as if you have to share a room with twenty snorers, not get that hot shower because the first 5 pilgrims made it to the albergue before you (hot water is important, helps me stay clean) and carry your own stove on your back. and if you couldn't, then you slept on the ground, hopefully with a roof over your head, went hungry, bred lice and prayed you didn't get assaulted. so where do we draw the line? do it in sandals, sleep on the ground, beg for alms and food? or with a support vehicle and stay at paradores?

for the record, i have done it both ways (no pun intended) and i am leaning currently leaning a bit more towards comfort, but then again, perhaps not...

 

[naplesdon]

To mralisn: the vow of silence includes not crunching plastic bags at 4 to 6am, unless you are trying not to be a true pilgrim

 

[Rebekah Scott]

you say "suffering" as if it is a bad thing!
Suffering is a key part of living. Striving to avoid suffering causes stress, a different kind of suffering.
If you´re in pain, if you are uncomfortable, if you are driven crazy by whatever, stop right where you are and step back for a minute and breathe deep. It may not go away right then. Let yourself really feel the pain or discomfort or rage for a minute, and then you will feel it start to fade. Let it blow through you like a big wind. And then you can get on with your camino.

Unless, of course, you have broken your leg, or someone is rifling through your backpack, or the toilet just keeps overflowing! Then you YELL!

 

[heidi1]

To mralisn: the vow of silence includes not crunching plastic bags at 4 to 6am, unless you are trying not to be a true pilgrim

I'm in puente le raine right now, I wish that guy I shared a room with here this morning would've been a 'true' pilgrim. Ha! I know, I know, true pilgrims don't use wifi.

 

[cherrys]

To mralisn: the vow of silence includes not crunching plastic bags at 4 to 6am, unless you are trying not to be a true pilgrim

I wonder what the equivalant of plastic bags was in 951?

 

[evanlow]

Absolutely no!

You job as a pilgrim (at least a modern one) is to eat, sleep, walk and do a bit laundry. Repeat this a few times and you won't even asking this question.

 

[tyrrek]

Realising that you're not suffering despite the absence of many things we consider ‘essential‘ is the way to go. I actually found myself enjoying it, and wondered if I should go to confession to apologise. Quite a few others seemed to be happy as well, though, so in the end I didn't bother.

 

[naplesdon]

As always, I do have to disqualify my post by stating that I am still a would-be pilgrim [hoping for next year, but my own health issues (my doctor is tracking down the cause of my anemia) and that of my walking partner's father (she had to relocate to take care of him) post-poned our pilgrimage from being this year].

However, that said, I did just return from two weeks in Uganda last month. At no point did I consider my cold basin baths or simple accommodations "suffering". I was fortunate enough to hike an hour up the hills on two of the days to see the water tanks that I spearheaded the fundraising for. If you want to know about suffering, follow a bare-foot child in thread-bare clothes carrying a 5L jerry can of dirty water up to their mud and wattle home with a thatched or, if they are lucky, rusty tin roof.

Whatever choices one makes on the Camino are their own. A pilgrim travels for spiritual reasons. Some prefer a path of penitence, while others prefer a path of comfort. Some prefer to be around people, while others prefer solitude. Some appreciate, while others complain. Cold showers, heavy backpacks, and crowded dorms can all be avoided if one so chooses. And we do, after all, have the luxury of choice that many in the world do not.

After living for more than 3 years in west Africa I appreciate your post and the work you are doing. My experience was the construction of clinics for SIDA and VVF in impoverished regions in the Sahel. I became extremely ill and discovered I was suffering from anemia after living in that inhospitable and harsh environment as a westerner for so long. It turned out to be pernicious anemia which is easily treated with a monthly injection B-12 but what almost killed me was finally diagnosed as hemochromatosis, a genetic blood disorder which doctors rarely test for even though it is prevalent in 0.05% of the population with Celtic and Basque roots.

 

[Mark Lee]

Realising that you're not suffering despite the absence of many things we consider ‘essential‘ is the way to go. I actually found myself enjoying it,

and wondered if I should go to confession to apologise

. Quite a few others seemed to be happy as well, though, so in the end I didn't bother.

Ha ha, good one......

 

[koilife]

If I watch "The Way" 500 times, doesn't that make me a pilgrim?

 

[koilife]

Realising that you're not suffering despite the absence of many things we consider ‘essential‘ is the way to go. I actually found myself enjoying it, and wondered if I should go to confession to apologise. Quite a few others seemed to be happy as well, though, so in the end I didn't bother.

I had the distinct advantage that I couldn't find an English speaking priest and therefore couldn't confess the extra glasses of wine, the extra mugs of beer, the nights I stayed in a private room, the extra minutes when the shower was piping hot and no one else was waiting, that I carried only a 5K backpack, and so on. In the end I rationalized it all away, and so I am now proud to declare, I'm a bad pilgrim!

 

[tpmchugh]

Well I have heard it said that John Paul ll was the most famous pilgrim and he flew in and rode in a popemobile . Of course I have heard him called the most famous touregrino lol

 

[tpmchugh]

I had the distinct advantage that I couldn't find an English speaking priest and therefore couldn't confess the extra glasses of wine, the extra mugs of beer, the nights I stayed in a private room, the extra minutes when the shower was piping hot and no one else was waiting, that I carried only a 5K backpack, and so on. In the end I rationalized it all away, and so I am now proud to declare, I'm a bad pilgrim!

Oh you truely awful person, you should be ashamed at taking only an extra glass of wine lol. I gained a bit of a reputation as the Irishman who would never leave if there was some wine still in the bottle be it mine or someone elses

 

[bystander]

"If I watch "The Way" 500 times, doesn't that make me a pilgrim?"
No it wouldn't.
But it might suggest you either suffer from OCD or else you are a masochist!

 

[tpmchugh]

If I watch "The Way" 500 times, doesn't that make me a pilgrim?

A masochist maybe lol

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

maybe there should be a level of difficulty Likert scale on the Compostela

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Is there a difference between a pilgrim and a tourist? Is there no sacrifice by a pilgrim? I am not talking hair shirt here, but doesn't a pilgrim give up something? Suffering may be a bit strong, because I avoid suffering like the plague. But a bit of discomfort, maybe? Fewer demands than on a vacation? If there is no difference, why not go on a cruise? Or go camping. Or just a long walk? Why call oneself a pilgrim?

 

[WanderingNotLost]

So when my snoring awakens everyone within a km, and they express anger for their suffering, I'm actually helping them become a true pilgrim. Glad I can help.

 

[Mark Lee]

Is there a difference between a pilgrim and a tourist? Is there no sacrifice by a pilgrim? I am not talking hair shirt here, but doesn't a pilgrim give up something? Suffering may be a bit strong, because I avoid suffering like the plague. But a bit of discomfort, maybe? Fewer demands than on a vacation? If there is no difference, why not go on a cruise? Or go camping. Or just a long walk? Why call oneself a pilgrim?

Tourist or pilgrim? Hmmm, Interesting question.

I guess I was both. I wanted to do the Camino, but I also wanted to visit Spain as I had never been there before and always wanted to go. My father traveled there for work and spent time there in the military and he would tell me how beautiful it was and my mother was Bolivian of Spanish descent.

Honestly, I did not experience or see anything that could be described as "suffering" on the Camino. One would have to deliberately make oneself suffer it seems and why would one do that?

I'm curious what one would consider "suffering" whilst walking the Camino? And please don't say bad wine, cold showers, people snoring, lumpy mattresses, blisters because you are wearing the wrong socks and shoes, overloaded pack with stuff you don't need, etc.....

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

Tourist or pilgrim? Hmmm, Interesting question.

I guess I was a both. I wanted to do the Camino, but I also wanted to visit Spain as I had never been there before and always wanted to go. My father traveled there for work and spent time there in the military and he would tell me how beautiful it was and my mother was Bolivian of Spanish descent.

Honestly, I did not experience or see anything that could be described as "suffering" on the Camino. One would have to deliberately make oneself suffer it seems and why would one do that?

I'm curious what one would consider "suffering" whilst walking the Camino?

cold showers...

 

[koilife]

maybe there should be a level of difficulty Likert scale on the Compostela

Is that like more points to start from SJPdP than Roncesvalles? More points for the Route Napoleon instead of Valcarlos? Extra points for sleeping on a top bunk? Extra points for walking a day in the rain and point multipliers for consecutive rain days? Do we lose points for the second bottle of wine or the fourth mug of beer?

Less than 100 points = A miserable excuse for a pilgrim
100 to 300 points = A pilgrim pretender
301 to 600 points = A lesser pilgrim
601 to 1200 points = A true and noble pilgrim
greater than 1200 points = A god among pilgrim Cretans

 

[Tincatinker]

Is there a difference between a pilgrim and a tourist? Is there no sacrifice by a pilgrim? I am not talking hair shirt here, but doesn't a pilgrim give up something? Suffering may be a bit strong, because I avoid suffering like the plague. But a bit of discomfort, maybe? Fewer demands than on a vacation? If there is no difference, why not go on a cruise? Or go camping. Or just a long walk? Why call oneself a pilgrim?

Perhaps we should consider the sufferings of the Tourist - the bus is late, they are sat next to someone eating garlic sausage sandwiches; the bus will only ever stop at restaurants where guide and driver will get a free meal or a kick-back. All historical, hysterical or high-street excursions will include costs not in the original quotation and your room at the end of the day will not even vaguely resemble the one in the brochure. With luck the plumbing will function at more or less the standard you get at home depending on whether you have invested your income in home improvements or "travel".

Koilife - lose points for the second bottle of wine - are we talking lunch or supper?

 

[koilife]

Is there a difference between a pilgrim and a tourist? Is there no sacrifice by a pilgrim? I am not talking hair shirt here, but doesn't a pilgrim give up something? Suffering may be a bit strong, because I avoid suffering like the plague. But a bit of discomfort, maybe? Fewer demands than on a vacation? If there is no difference, why not go on a cruise? Or go camping. Or just a long walk? Why call oneself a pilgrim?

Setting aside my (debatable) humor on the matter, I don't think being a pilgrim is about the accidentals, like blisters or pack weight or showers or slogging through torrential rain on trails streaming with cow-<stuff>. I think the difference is interior and rises from one's intention for the pilgrimage and ends with one's change as a result of the pilgrimage. My opinion is that two different people can walk the exact same path at the exact same time, experience the exact same things, and one finishes in Santiago as a pilgrim and the other as a tourist.

I think that the core issue of pilgrimage is the intention --- it is in what we're seeking, namely, something above and beyond ourselves. It could be a noble goal---raising money for some good cause, seeking interior healing and freedom, searching for insight into some great decision or change in life direction, or such like. It could be also be that we're seeking something that we cannot even name or express; as Augustine puts it, "Our hearts are restless O Lord, until they rest in thee." As a Catholic, I'll argue that, whether we're conscious of it or not, pilgrimage occurs when we seek to rest in God, for that is where we become our truest self. I don't think it's possible to enter this kind of search on a sustained basis and not be changed in the process. The process of making pilgrimage helps to intensify this search, to embody this search in a tangible way, but it's not the suffering or the journey that makes the the change, it's the consent of the pilgrim to that process that enables the change. Thus, pilgrimage could be an afternoon, a month, or a lifetime.

The tourist, on the other hand, emerges with very little change because his search was fundamentally oriented back into his own self. He may have a truly great and fulfilling walk, but any transformation is likely only at the level of his body, not his heart or soul or spirit. He is who he was before he started.

Then again, these might just be the musings of one too many glasses of Rioja red this afternoon . . .

 

[koilife]

Koilife - lose points for the second bottle of wine - are we talking lunch or supper?

I was thinking second breakfast; after all, it's always siesta somewhere.

 

[Alyssa]

Do I really have to suffer to be a 'real' pilgrim? - A Camino enthusiast's dilemma: cold showers, heavy backpacks, crowded dorms... does that make more of a pilgrim?

I guess I'd like to know..."more of a pilgrim" than whom or what? And...according to whom? What is a "real" pilgrim anyway? (And again, according to whom?) I decided to turn to the dictionary. (What can I say, the dictionary has always been my favorite book.)

The first two definitions of pilgrim in Merriam Webster's online dictionary are: 1) one who journeys in foreign lands, and 2) one who travels to a shrine or a holy place as a devotee. "Cold showers, heavy backpacks, crowded dorms," will not make anyone more of a pilgrim by either definition. By the same token, having hot showers, a light backpack, and single rooms won't make someone less of a pilgrim by either definition either.

And according to one of the definitions of suffer, "to experience something unpleasant", sounds like cold showers is suffering for you (when used as a transitive verb). (Personally, I love the dated definition of suffer, which is synonymous with "tolerate").

I couldn't resist looking up the definition of tourist also: "a person who is traveling, especially for pleasure." By dictionary definition then, I will be both tourist and pilgrim!

 

[Deleted member 22638]

Something I have read over-and-over in this forum the short time I have been here is, "It's your camino. Make it what you want it to be." .

Yes , yes and yes , but don't be shocked, or perhaps don't be surprised if after your Camino you experience an enormous commonality / sympathy with your fellow pilgrims ( and they are a thousand year old bunch. )

However one travels, travel one must, and after a millennia, I would be very surprised if " my way " doesn't have an echo with pilgrims past ... Now what might that mean?

 

[Mark Lee]

Is that like more points to start from SJPdP than Roncesvalles? More points for the Route Napoleon instead of Valcarlos? Extra points for sleeping on a top bunk? Extra points for walking a day in the rain and point multipliers for consecutive rain days? Do we lose points for the second bottle of wine or the fourth mug of beer?

Less than 100 points = A miserable excuse for a pilgrim
100 to 300 points = A pilgrim pretender
301 to 600 points = A lesser pilgrim
601 to 1200 points = A true and noble pilgrim
greater than 1200 points = A god among pilgrim Cretans

I sure hope not. I loved that Spanish wine and really love that Spanish beer.

 

[Alyssa]

Yes , yes and yes , but don't be shocked, or perhaps don't be surprised if after your Camino you experience an enormous commonality / sympathy with your fellow pilgrims ( and they are a thousand year old bunch. )

However one travels, travel one must, and after a millennia, I would be very surprised if " my way " doesn't have an echo with pilgrims past ... Now what might that mean?

Good point. I retract the statement.

 

[Kanga]

Why call oneself a pilgrim?

I don't think it has anything to do with performance or suffering or environment. On my first Camino I was definitely a pilgrim. I walked with a specific state of mind. And the rewards were inestimable.

Now? Aw sucks, I don't know. Too much pondering, not enough walking I say!

 

[koilife]

Oh you truely awful person, you should be ashamed at taking only an extra glass of wine lol. I gained a bit of a reputation as the Irishman who would never leave if there was some wine still in the bottle be it mine or someone elses

Good for you! Waste not and want not.

You made me think of an Irishman (who could be your twin) and his wife. My son and I came back to Santiago from Finisterre early in order to meet up with them and and an English couple who had arrived in Santiago the day before. We walked around the old city for over two hours looking into every bar and restaurant until we finally found them. It was all to hoist one last pint in camaraderie. On the first day out of SJPdP, we hid out under a tree from the hail with the four of them, and we walked with them through the whole mid section. Nothing then could be more appropriate than one final drink with our dear friends. If there is a hallmark of the pilgrim that stands out above all others, at least for me, it is the friendships that form.

 

[koilife]

Well I have heard it said that John Paul ll was the most famous pilgrim and he flew in and rode in a popemobile . Of course I have heard him called the most famous touregrino lol

Does that make him the Popegrino?

 

[obinjatoo@yahoo.com]

Pain is a part of life... Suffering is optional...

 

[newfydog]

OK, I don't often play the game of ranking "true pilgrimness" but I'll submit this lady as the gold standard.
She is Belgian, and actually Catholic.
Her husband died, and she packed up and headed for Santiago
She didn't worry about any SJPP vs. Sarria discussion, she started walking from the doorstep of her home.
She was a few days from finishing and while I'm sure she suffered, she had smiles and love for everyone on the trail (even Americans on mountain bikes)

 

[jayree]

But it might suggest you either suffer from OCD or else you are a masochist!

OCD is obsessive Camino disorder, right ?

 

[Tumbleweed]

Yes, suffer you shall. I wouldn't consider any pain or discomfort or lack of sleep suffering.......I call them and any other thing you encounter on the Camino that makes you uncomfortable - growing pains. Be greatful and feel blessed that you are given these challenges, because with them comes a better more awakened existence.

Peace be with you.

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

thanks to everyone for your contributions, there have been some quality posts on this thread and many thought provoking ones too; not that i agree with all of them nor have i found an answer (yet) to my dilemma. in any case, buen camino and if you are staying at an albergue, save some hot water for the stragglers.

 

[wawpdx]

The tourist, on the other hand, emerges with very little change because his search was fundamentally oriented back into his own self. He may have a truly great and fulfilling walk, but any transformation is likely only at the level of his body, not his heart or soul or spirit. He is who he was before he started.
.

I disagree with this either/or perspective of people.

The first time I ever saw anyone on a pilgrimage, I was a tourist. As a high school student, my itinerary of things to see in Mexico City was planned by someone else. I had barely heard of the Cathedral of Guadalupe. I arrived. I heard the story. I saw the church. I went away. But, from the comfort of my tourist bus, I saw arriving pilgrims who were inching their way along on their knees. I saw people who had saved or waited for years to reach this shrine, which was just another part of my day's agenda. I will never forget the contrast I felt between the deep intention of those pilgrims and my own experience of the exact same destination.

 

[roving_rufus]

Thomas Merton wrote about a trip he had made as a young man as being like a medieval pilgrimage of ninth-tenths tourist and one-tenth pilgrimage.
That comment struck me that actually the camino and Santiago de Compostela are much more complex because we ourselves are much more complex. At times I was more a tourist than a pilgrim last spring but at others tourist was none existence in my mind. Also someone who arrived on a bus could be as much a pilgrim as someone who has walked and gained blisters, had cold showers and slept in bunks or even under the stars - because pilgrimage is not so much about the externals it is the internal journey we are making spiritually (for me I have a Christain view of that but however you may define that idea of spiritually for yourself works too). We are complex beings - we are not really just one thing- either pilgrim or tourist but a mix- it may be more a question of proportions - even someone who is 99.99% a tourist may get that 0.01% of being a pilgrim and a spiritual glimmer- while someone else could well be 90% pilgrim and 10% tourist.

Also in Christianity pilgrimage is a metaphor for a life travelling with God - that brings troubles, hardships, sacrifices, sorrows and pain but also joy, celebrations, comfort, peace- highs as well as lows. So in terms of a physical journey made as a pilgrimage then it may well be that there will be tough times, sacrifices made and pain endured but there will be moments of pleasure, joy, peace and grace. So maybe its actually okay to let our tourist side come out - because that is part of pilgrimage too - that idea of travelling for pleasure is not entirely separated from pilgrimage, but pleasure is only one element of pilgrimage. So going to see a musuem, having a nice meal, sitting under a tree for most of the day, booking into a hotel to have a bath, laughing along the way, singing along the path, having the second bottle of wine, eating ice-cream on a scorching hot day, bring thrilled to find a beautiful wild flower, to making a new friend - all the little and big pleasures we enjoy walking on the camino those are all part of pilgrimage too. But it may be a question of when would the pleasure for each of us overwhelm the other elements of making a pilgrimage?

 

[wayfarer]

If pilgrimage is a life traveling with God then we are all pilgrims and always have been.

 

[StuartM]

I had a really good friend who had spent years in the military and lived in some very hostile environments for extended periods (including a winter spent in a hut in the middle of a minefield in the south Atlantic). His mantra was "any fool can be uncomfortable". I've never really seen any point in deliberately seeking discomfort, I don't see that it makes you any "better" than someone who deliberately seeks luxury. Roughing it is different, when you learn to rough it you learn to make the best of what you have. Seeking out discomfort (like the hair shirt wearing pilgrims of old) just strikes me as stupid. Do you need to have a cold shower? Do you need to not be able to sleep? Do you need to be cold? Usually the answer is no, there are alternatives (I'd rather skip a shower than be cold, no-one ever died from it). Make the best of things, don't make the worst of them.

For a lot of people the Camino is the trip of a lifetime. So what if they want to be comfortable and enjoy it? Their experience is neither better nor worse than anyone else's, it's just different.

On the Frances I met a woman who was one of the most devoutly religious people I've ever known. I remember meeting her in an albergue near Santiago, I'd spent a few days walking in the cold and rain, not seen a single person I knew, not met many people who fancied talking and done some long stretches so was starting to hurt (quite a lot). I'd told her I was starting to feel like a real pilgrim.

She looked at me quizzically and smiled. She asked me if I thought God wanted me to suffer (or something along those lines).

The first documented pilgrim was Godescalc, the Bishop of Le Puy in 951. He travelled in style, with an entourage befitting a bishop. All the poor suffering beggars that followed were trying their best to emulate his trip.

A true pilgrim would stay in the historic paradors, not some albergue.

This book http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0099565870/?tag=casaivar-21 is a wonderful insight into how the European religious leaders of the past lived. Suffering (at least by them) was not high on the list.

 

[Diogo92]

All that you talked about, you’ll get used to it. So, it’s not real suffering at all.

Somebody during my pilgrimage of this year said that if you choose to walk, you have to handle everything. It was your choice. BUT, pay attention that one thing is living to it and adapt to it, other is crossing the line and go for ultra-macho mode: not stopping to dry when it’s raining, not taking medicine to stop possible diseases and inflammations, not eating, not drinking, etc, etc.

“But pilgrims in the Middle Ages didn’t have almost anything, compared to what we have today”. Correct, but we live on the 21st Century, not on the 12th. Things are different, and we must adapt to every scenario.

For me, there isn’t a real “true pilgrim”. Everybody that goes to Santiago, either by foot, bicycle, horse, train, bus, car, helicopter, skydiving, etc, etc, they are doing their pilgrimage on the way that they can, and we shouldn’t minimize persons just because they haven’t done it by any kind of “painful” method.

When it comes to your health, on trips of any kind, you shouldn’t take any kind of risk. Be safe.

Best Regards
Diogo

 

[colinPeter]

... does that make more of a pilgrim?

I think to be a 'real' pilgrim (the term used in the title of this thread), you just need to consider yourself to be on a 'real' pilgrimage.
Buen Camino
Colin

 

[Deleted member 3000]

you just need to consider yourself to be on a 'real' pilgrimage.

Not on an allegorical one; it might make good poetry to say life is a pilgrimage as you sit in your easy chair, but for it to be a pilgrimage, I think you need some movement.

 

[weekjchammings]

Not on an allegorical one; it might make good poetry to say life is a pilgrimage as you sit in your easy chair, but for it to be a pilgrimage, I think you need some movement.

So that would be in your rocking chair old fella !!!!!!!!!

 

[koilife]

I disagree with this either/or perspective of people.

The first time I ever saw anyone on a pilgrimage, I was a tourist. As a high school student, my itinerary of things to see in Mexico City was planned by someone else. I had barely heard of the Cathedral of Guadalupe. I arrived. I heard the story. I saw the church. I went away. But, from the comfort of my tourist bus, I saw arriving pilgrims who were inching their way along on their knees. I saw people who had saved or waited for years to reach this shrine, which was just another part of my day's agenda. I will never forget the contrast I felt between the deep intention of those pilgrims and my own experience of the exact same destination.

I completely agree. I was describing what I think a pilgrim and a tourist are at some kind of definitional level, but I ran out of time to complete the second half of my thought because my wife and I were going to be late for the showing of Walking the Camino (great documentary, by the way). I didn't mean to imply that we exist (or walk/ride/whatever) in some either/or arrangement of absolutes. People are not binary. We're selfless and selfish all at the same time. We rest in God and we're absorbed in ourselves. @roving_rufus put it more more eloquently than I:

Thomas Merton wrote about a trip he had made as a young man as being like a medieval pilgrimage of ninth-tenths tourist and one-tenth pilgrimage.

That comment struck me that actually the camino and Santiago de Compostela are much more complex because we ourselves are much more complex. . . . We are complex beings - we are not really just one thing- either pilgrim or tourist but a mix- it may be more a question of proportions - even someone who is 99.99% a tourist may get that 0.01% of being a pilgrim and a spiritual glimmer- while someone else could well be 90% pilgrim and 10% tourist.

 

[colinPeter]

Not on an allegorical one; it might make good poetry to say life is a pilgrimage as you sit in your easy chair, but for it to be a pilgrimage, I think you need some movement.

No, I think a metaphorical pilgrimage can be just as valid.
I would consider that you could live your life as a pilgrimage, for example while being confined to a bed with a sickness.
But in this instance, I was referring to a specific journey, with the only proviso being that it seemed genuine to the person involved.
Colin

 

[koilife]

Not on an allegorical one; it might make good poetry to say life is a pilgrimage as you sit in your easy chair, but for it to be a pilgrimage, I think you need some movement.

Completely agreed with the need for movement, else there is no progress. But, is it possible that such movement can be interior rather than exterior? Is the camino (or any other pilgrim route) merely an external frame for an interior process?

 

[lynnejohn]

Wow - this discussion has been around since I joined the forum.
I think when Socrates (attributed) said "The unexamined life is not worth living", I'm pretty sure he meant that we should examine our own lives, not the lives of others.

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

the thing is, 'non-suffering' pilgrims may directly or indirectly hamper the experience for the rest, eg. tour buses and/or tour groups queuing for their photo and blocking the trail...

 

[indyinmaine]

Getting to interact with interesting people from all over the planet, walking through northern Spain, having access to sit down toilets and showers every day, having mostly clean clothing and not having to carry a week’s worth of food in your pack, plus sleeping indoors…not really sure I would call that suffering. Some accommodations may be a bit more earthy than back home…stuff for interesting stories to share with friends. Suffering would be if they stopped serving café con leche, Spanish tortillas and vino tinto. Pouring down rain, muddy trails and some aches and pains are additional details for those interesting stories for back home. Have a wonderful time and Buen Camino.

"Suffering would be if they stopped serving café con leche, Spanish tortillas and vino tinto." AMEN!

 

[CaminoKris2013]

If I watch "The Way" 500 times, doesn't that make me a pilgrim?

Actually, I have watched The Way many times, not for the story but for the scenery...so beautiful!

 

[Al the optimist]

No. Nothing makes you "more a pilgrim". You are there, you are doing it and you are changing inside - you are a pilgrim, end of.

 

[xin loi]

Are you all implying that I have it all wrong? I thought one was supposed to make others suffer while one was on a Pilgrimage. Why would I want to suffer?

 

[november_moon]

Perhaps we should consider the sufferings of the Tourist

And while we are at it, the sufferings of a business traveler I have been travelling quite a bit of work this past year - I usually do, but this past year it has been more. I just got back last night, in fact, and may be off again on Tuesday. I like travelling in general, so it isn't a big deal, but it does wear on a person sometimes. The constant time changes, the time spent in airports and on planes, meetings where you have to be "on" all day long and careful about what you say and what you don't, checking in and out of hotels that all look the same, trying to continue to get work done on the road with shoddy connections and mis-matched schedules with the people back in the office...

We have 2 months until our Camino and I find myself looking forward to it in a big way - and I am looking forward to the Camino type of "suffering".

 

[newfydog]

Actually, I have watched The Way many times, not for the story but for the scenery...so beautiful!

that was my review too....the scenery brought tears to my eyes, the tear jerking plot did not!

 

[mspath]

1. Who would true valour see,
Let him come hither;
One here will constant be,
Come wind, come weather
There’s no discouragement
Shall make him once relent
His first avowed intent
To be a pilgrim.

2. Whoso beset him round
With dismal stories,
Do but themselves confound;
His strength the more is.
No lion can him fright,
He’ll with a giant fight,
But he will have a right
To be a pilgrim.

3. Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Can daunt his spirit;
He knows he at the end
Shall life inherit.
Then fancies fly away,
He’ll fear not what men say,
He’ll labour night and day
To be a pilgrim.

John Bunyan. The Pilgrim's Progress, part II, written 1684

Valid in 17th century Anglican England and for many still valid today.

Margaret Meredith

 

[KiwiNomad06]

I don't think being a pilgrim is about the accidentals, like blisters or pack weight or showers or slogging through torrential rain on trails streaming with cow-<stuff>.

I don't think you can 'write off' things like blisters and slogging through torrential rain as 'accidentals'. Walking to Santiago is a very physical experience, and the rhythm of the feet, in whatever weather we find ourselves in, is in large part the essence of the Camino. No matter what layers of 'mind' you add to try and rationalise who is a 'pilgrim', and who is a 'tourist', walking remains the foundation.
Margaret

 

[KiwiNomad06]

OK, I don't often play the game of ranking "true pilgrimness" but I'll submit this lady as the gold standard.
.... she had smiles and love for everyone on the trail

Newfy, her quiet smile of some deep joy reminds me of the Frenchwoman I met in Cahors who was my inspiration to walk the Camino two years later. She radiated something special from inside after her three weeks of walking on the Le Puy route. I still remember her....
Margaret

 

[koilife]

. . . He’ll fear not what men say,
He’ll labour night and day
To be a pilgrim.

John Bunyan. The Pilgrim's Progress, part II, written 1684

Valid in 17th century Anglican England and for many still valid today.

Margaret Meredith

Margaret --- I always love your quotes from literature because they simultaneously capture and elevate the discussion. Thank you!

In response, I'd like to share my favorite "pilgrim's psalm." It was a daily prayer for me as I walked.

Psalm 84

How lovely your dwelling, O Lord of hosts!
My soul yearns and pines for the courts of the Lord.
My heart and flesh cry out for the living God.
As the sparrow finds a home and the swallow a nest to settle her young,
My home is by your altars, Lord of hosts, my king and my God!
Happy are those who dwell in your house!
They never cease to praise you.

Happy are those who find refuge in you, whose hearts are set on pilgrim roads.
As they pass through the Baca valley, they find spring water to drink.
Also from pools the Lord provides water for those who lose their way.
They pass through outer and inner wall and see the God of gods on Zion.

Lord of hosts, hear my prayer; listen, God of Jacob.
O God, look kindly on our shield; look upon the face of your anointed.

Better one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere.
Better the threshold of the house of my God than a home in the tents of the wicked.
For a sun and shield is the Lord God, bestowing all grace and glory.
The Lord withholds no good thing from those who walk without reproach.
O Lord of hosts, happy are those who trust in you!​

 

[koilife]

I don't think you can 'write off' things like blisters and slogging through torrential rain as 'accidentals'. Walking to Santiago is a very physical experience, and the rhythm of the feet, in whatever weather we find ourselves in, is in large part the essence of the Camino. No matter what layers of 'mind' you add to try and rationalise who is a 'pilgrim', and who is a 'tourist', walking remains the foundation.
Margaret

I didn't mean to suggest that we should write them off or that I want to rationalize them away. At a fundamental level, we are physical beings, and to pretend to the contrary makes no sense. But we're more than just physical beings, and the very physicality of the pilgrimage is a hugely valuable framework and catalyst to the deeper things that go on in the heart and soul, which to me is the truly important thing.

I can make good footwear decisions and walk without a blister, I can be lucky and have perfect weather, I can I pace myself so that I don't struggle with tendinitis, I can pack lightly and walk long and strong as a result --- but I don't believe the lack of these struggles in the process diminishes the interior journey. Yes, external struggle and hardship provide opportunities for the internal journey, but they don't guarantee it, and in my own experience, they're not necessary for it. Obviously, others may have different experiences.

 

[Alyssa]

No, I think a metaphorical pilgrimage can be just as valid.
I would consider that you could live your life as a pilgrimage, for example while being confined to a bed with a sickness.
But in this instance, I was referring to a specific journey, with the only proviso being that it seemed genuine to the person involved.
Colin

Speaking of metaphors, I just read the following quote on a site about pilgrimages, "Yet the essential nature of pilgrimage—making a transformative journey to a sacred center—remained a powerful metaphor for the spiritual life of Christians everywhere."

Jeffery, many thanks for creating this thread. It has been fascinating to read so many perspectives and is leading me to some profound contemplation about the pilgrimage I will make this June and July.

 

[thetravellingpen]

Not everyone walks the camino for religious reasons - some for a personal challenge and as a time to reflect. Spiritual is not the same as religious. I would never deliberately 'suffer', so I've chosen footwear well, have a blister prevention technique and am packing light. I really don't care if I'm not considered a 'pilgrim' by others. I think too many people here are worried what others think. Who cares if others think you are more or less of a pilgrim than them?
Why not just enjoy the challenge of walking several hundred KMs, enjoy the scenery and the personal reflection time. If we are supposed to 'suffer' during the camino, then close your eyes when you walk so you don't enjoy the views, add a stone in each sock and deliberately order bad food! My goodness! Just enjoy it!
For those that are doing it for religious reasons, would God not give you as much credit for doing the pilgrimage if you've used the time to sort out your head and find ways to improve your outlook on life? Does that not also make you a better person?

 

[Kanga]

And while we are at it, the sufferings of a business traveler I have been travelling quite a bit of work this past year -

Yeah, all those frequent flyer points, they just drag you down....

 

[Kanga]

1. Who would true valour see,
Let him come hither;
One here will constant be,
Come wind, come weather
There’s no discouragement
Shall make him once relent
His first avowed intent
To be a pilgrim.


John Bunyan. The Pilgrim's Progress, part II, written 1684

Valid in 17th century Anglican England and for many still valid today.

Margaret Meredith

My very favourite hymn. I've instructed that it, together with "Morning has Broken", is to be sung at my funeral. And that the blessing at the end is to be the old Irish "May the road rise up to greet you". Knowing full well that my dearly loved ones will completely ignore me and I'll be dead so quite powerless!

 

[colinPeter]

...Knowing full well that my dearly loved ones will completely ignore me and I'll be dead so quite powerless!

Testamentary trust, Kanga, testamentary trust.

ps. Hope you're feeling well.

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

Speaking of metaphors, I just read the following quote on a site about pilgrimages, "Yet the essential nature of pilgrimage—making a transformative journey to a sacred center—remained a powerful metaphor for the spiritual life of Christians everywhere."

Jeffery, many thanks for creating this thread. It has been fascinating to read so many perspectives and is leading me to some profound contemplation about the pilgrimage I will make this June and July.

Thank you, and hope to see you on the Camino this summer

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I think I have it now. Everyone who contemplates life is on a life pilgrimage. Any walk anywhere makes one a pilgrim. Anyone can walk a camino, so everyone is a pilgrim. "Camino de Santiago" is an anachronism because Santiago is not a necessary part of a pilgrimage through life. Tourists are pilgrims because they may, or may not, be walking, and may, or may not, be on any camino of Santiago. Anything, anywhere is a Camino de Santiago.

Pass the popcorn, and turn on the travel channel.

 

[naplesdon]

I wonder what the equivalant of plastic bags was in 951?

No doubt it had something to do with saddling up the horse and jingle-jangling the pack bags and harness while others were sleeping.

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

I think I have it now. Everyone who contemplates life is on a life pilgrimage. Any walk anywhere makes one a pilgrim. Anyone can walk a camino, so everyone is a pilgrim. "Camino de Santiago" is an anachronism because Santiago is not a necessary part of a pilgrimage through life. Tourists are pilgrims because they may, or may not, be walking, and may, or may not, be on any camino of Santiago. Anything, anywhere is a Camino de Santiago.

Pass the popcorn, and turn on the travel channel.

and the 'suffering'?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

and the 'suffering'?

Not even discomfort, or even inconvenience. Sherpas and Paradores all the way. In my dictionary words will mean exactly what I want them to mean, no more, no less. Irritation will become agony; indulgence will simply be "my way."

 

[Kanga]

Interestingly, the origin of "pilgrim" according to the Shorter Oxford Dictionary is the Latin "peregrinus", which means "foreign".

It gives four definitions.

(1) A traveller, a person who wanders from place to place,
(2) a person who travels to a sacred place as an act of religious devotion,
(3) a person regarded as journeying through life, etc; a person who travels in quest of something, or for respectful or sentimental reasons,
(4) in "Pilgrim Father" meaning a member of the Puritans who founded eg Plymouth, Massachusetts.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

John Wayne as Tom Doniphon: Whoa, take 'er easy there, Pilgrim.

Pilgrims or Pilgrim Fathers, is a name commonly applied to early settlers of the Plymouth Colony in present-day Plymouth, Massachusetts, United States. Their leadership came from the religious congregations of Brownist English Dissenters who had fled the volatile political environment in England for the relative calm and tolerance of 16th–17th century Holland in the Netherlands.

Unless you are a character in a John Wayne film or a Brownist English Dissenter, maybe you cannot be a pilgrim?

 

[koilife]

I think I have it now. Everyone who contemplates life is on a life pilgrimage. Any walk anywhere makes one a pilgrim. Anyone can walk a camino, so everyone is a pilgrim. "Camino de Santiago" is an anachronism because Santiago is not a necessary part of a pilgrimage through life. Tourists are pilgrims because they may, or may not, be walking, and may, or may not, be on any camino of Santiago. Anything, anywhere is a Camino de Santiago.

Pass the popcorn, and turn on the travel channel.

So, I CAN be a pilgrim if I watch "The Way" 500 times!

 

[pbucilla]

"I haven't lost my temper in 40 years, but pilgrim you caused a lot of trouble........" (John Wayne in McClintock.) Maybe you have to cause trouble to be a pilgrim. Hmmmm...... Ok, maybe not. I'm just trying to figure this out too.

 

[koilife]

Interestingly, the origin of "pilgrim" according to the Shorter Oxford Dictionary is the Latin "peregrinus", which means "foreign".

It gives four definitions.

(1) A traveller, a person who wanders from place to place,
(2) a person who travels to a sacred place as an act of religious devotion,
(3) a person regarded as journeying through life, etc; a person who travels in quest of something, or for respectful or sentimental reasons,
(4) in "Pilgrim Father" meaning a member of the Puritans who founded eg Plymouth, Massachusetts.

By #1, pretty much anyone is a pilgrim so long at they travel or wander. Thus, a travelling encyclopedia salesman is also a pilgrim.

Many, possibly most, who walk the Camino qualify for #2 and #3. These may not be their sole purpose, but these are at least present and possibly prominent.

#4 is not likely for anyone, according to Falcon's earlier posting.

 

[koilife]

Not even discomfort, or even inconvenience. Sherpas and Paradores all the way. In my dictionary words will mean exactly what I want them to mean, no more, no less. Irritation will become agony; indulgence will simply be "my way."

That would make you a post-modern pilgrim.

 

[cherie]

Some hours of the day I feel I'm a tourist, others I know I'm a pilgrim. What changes? the weather, the paths, the people you meet, the scenery, up hill or down, walking along a road or a forest floor, hot showers, cold showers….none of these lead to the ultimate answer, I think it depends on how you feel in that moment of time. Some of those moments we remember and treasure, others we don't give another thought to. Enjoy your Camino, every step of the way, for you and you alone. Beun Camino.

 

[koilife]

Not everyone walks the camino for religious reasons - some for a personal challenge and as a time to reflect. Spiritual is not the same as religious. I would never deliberately 'suffer', so I've chosen footwear well, have a blister prevention technique and am packing light. I really don't care if I'm not considered a 'pilgrim' by others. I think too many people here are worried what others think. Who cares if others think you are more or less of a pilgrim than them?
Why not just enjoy the challenge of walking several hundred KMs, enjoy the scenery and the personal reflection time. If we are supposed to 'suffer' during the camino, then close your eyes when you walk so you don't enjoy the views, add a stone in each sock and deliberately order bad food! My goodness! Just enjoy it!
For those that are doing it for religious reasons, would God not give you as much credit for doing the pilgrimage if you've used the time to sort out your head and find ways to improve your outlook on life? Does that not also make you a better person?

Is there necessarily a difference between spiritual and religious? I assume by "religious" you mean one who is part of an institutional religion, such as a Christian denomination. Can a Catholic, Anglican, Episcopalian, Lutheran, or a member any denomination also be spiritual? If one is religious and walking for religious reasons, are those necessarily different than using the time to sort out what is in one's head and heart, to improve one's outlook on life?

As a Catholic, the more deeply I have explored the faith, the more spiritual I have become. Nor do I deliberately seek out suffering just to confirm my Catholicism any more than an athiest would his athiesm. But, I might respond differently to it when it occurs, because I assign a different meaning to it than he does. Regardless, if an athiest is walking the Camino to be a better person, in my eyes, he's a pilgrim, and I'll gladly share a bottle of wine and tapas.

 

[mralisn]

Whoa. We sure do make things difficult to answer, don't we?

It is very simple....The most real/Jedi pilgrim will get us to 100 replies here.

 

[thetravellingpen]

Yes, all you say is true and yes I mean spirtual in that it might not be a specific religion or the goal of arriving to St James' final resting place.
Inner peace and acceptance of the universe and what it throws at us isn't religion but is spirituality perhaps.
Personally, I am exploring all options and no one religion fits as such. I live in Thailand and I do feel comfortable with many aspects of Buddhism but not all of them.
So yes... hard one to define.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

That would make you a post-modern pilgrim.

I have confessed to being a cheater and a rogue. I understand everyone doing the camino his/her way. I certainly do mine to please myself. I think I draw the line at making everyone and everything a pilgrimage. The route was established to reach the bones of St. James. A buddhist could find inspiration in walking it, but that does not make it a buddhist pilgrimage, even if he may be a buddhist pilgrim. An athlete can run it, but may not be a pilgrim on the route to St. James, but just a fan of fitness looking for a good place to run. I guess I may be a post-modern pilgrim observer.

 

[koilife]

Whoa. We sure do make things difficult to answer, don't we?

It is very simple....The most real/Jedi pilgrim will get us to 100 replies here.

Who did you have in mind?