Real Pilgrims

[BillyB]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

 

[Mark Lee]

Yeah, it is frustrating at times and tests the patience. Thing is, it's something that is only going to increase in popularity so one must accept it if one is going to walk the CF during the peak months. Last September as I approached Santiago the numbers increased dramatically and a lot had to do with my arrival to Santiago on a weekend (I was actually about to arrive there late on a Friday afternoon, but the pilgrims were thick, so I crashed at Monte del Gozo for the night and walked into the cathedral plaza almost alone on a cool and beautifully clear Saturday morning). I can only suggest timing one's Camino to arrive in Santiago between Sunday and Thursday during the peak months.
Nonetheless...congrats.

 

[good_old_shoes]

Congratulations to your completed pilgrimage BillyB! I hope you and your son had a great time


To the people passing by in taxis - yes, they might have been the kind who were simply too lazy to walk or didn't want to get wet because they found it too uncomfortable.

Or, they might have been sick or injured and in pain, maybe crying their eyes out because they couldn't walk, and recognizing the pilgrims their taxi passed, feeling ashamed because they knew how badly those would think about them.

You simply can't know who belongs to the one group, and who to the other.

So, don't judge – just enjoy your walk, other people's business is other people's business, you won't change it anyway. It is as it is.

Buen Camino (it never ends).

 

[Davey Boyd]

Were the pilgrims in the taxis cheating? They were not cheating you, or me, or the Camino. Cheating themselves, maybe, but probably not.

I walked every step from Geneva last year, only because I was lucky I could. I really don't care if someone gets a cab, its up to them. And good luck to them too. Who are we to judge?

I arrived in Santiago from the Primitivo arriving on July 25th. Everyone and his donkey were trying to arrive for that special date. When we arrived at Melide the Frances was rammed, and I loved every single minute of it. Traveling carnival, yes, but why not? There were no beds in Santiago at all either (there was at Mt. Gozo), I got my compostella then just carried on walking to Finisterra.

Davey

 

[michael heitzman]

Technically your Camino starts from your front door, or so I've read. I was planning on getting a ride to the airport and taking a plane over to Paris. From there a train to Le Puy-en-Velay. Will I not be considered a real pilgrim?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Technically your Camino starts from your front door, or so I've read. I was planning on getting a ride to the airport and taking a plane over to Paris. From there a train to Le Puy-en-Velay. Will I not be considered a real pilgrim?

Don't forget to swim the Pacific first.

 

[michael heitzman]

Don't forget to swim the Pacific first.

That's the long way...I was considering the Atlantic.

 

[Davey Boyd]

That's the long way...I was considering the Atlantic.

Give it a go Michael, 'The Camino provides'! you will be fine. You wont need a tent though, and I hope your boots are waterproof! Beers on me in santiago, I only have to swim the channel.

Btw, is swimming allowed? Crikey, we might be cheating....

 

[Anemone del Camino]

That's the long way...I was considering the Atlantic.

That would be cheating!

 

[Phillypilgrim]

Ay Caramba! As Bart Simpson would say.

 

[Bradypus]

Btw, is swimming allowed? Crikey, we might be cheating....

Definitely not. Only walking on the water is acceptable.

 

[Anniesantiago]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

And how do you know they were getting Compostelas???

How do you know they were not receiving certificates of distance??

And even if they DID get a Compostelas, how does that cheapen your own??

 

[Davey Boyd]

Definitely not. Only walking on the water is acceptable.

Thats that plan out of the window then. Couldn't possibly cheat. (maybe a peddalo, donkeys do swim too)?

And anyway, where would you get your credential stamped in the middle of the pond? I suppose you could flag down a passing private alberque and use the bar?

Confused
Davey

 

[Nanc]

I once had a biology teacher who noted a number of students who were copying classmates' notebooks to turn in at the end of the year. Those of us who struggled to create a good piece of work were resentful.
The teacher's attitude?
He acknowledged it happened. Said they had cheated only themselves. BUT in the process of doing what they did, they were learning something. Different than the rest but still learning

 

[Icacos]

Okay, you guys, I know you're having a bit of fun. But can't we go gently on a little slip-up?

 

[PEI_Heather]

That's the long way...I was considering the Atlantic.

Yes, do the Atlantic; you can stop in here to PEI for a hot cuppa tea before you jump in. I'll even take you to the beach myself; will wave at you until I see your backpack disappear in the distance...If you wear an emergency vest, Michael, I'll be able to wave at you longer... Bwahahahahah!

Walking from Le Puy; I am jealous!

 

[Davey Boyd]

I once had a biology teacher who noted a number of students who were copying classmates' notebooks to turn in at the end of the year. Those of us who struggled to create a good piece of work were resentful.
The teacher's attitude?
He acknowledged it happened. Said they had cheated only themselves. BUT in the process of doing what they did, they were learning something. Different than the rest but still learning

I agree.

I was in the British army once (for my sins). If we cheated on an exercise and got caught we got hammered. If we cheated, and they could not figure out how we got rewarded. It was called using initiative. We only cheated ourselves is the point.

I think the OP should just let go and not get hung up on this issue too much. It is a tiring discussion and very emotive. It does not take away from his achievement at all, so why get stressed about it? It is another lesson the Camino teaches you, tolerance, surely?

Davey

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

apparently then i am not a real pilgrim

and i haven't taken a taxi yet, but i would if i had/wanted to.

assuming these 200 false pilgrims did not leave you without a bed in the evening, what difference did it make to your pilgrimage?

 

[paul.ferris]

It is when they take the taxi, not out of necessity, by choice and get the last bunk, or all the bottom bunks, or use up the last hot water in the shower. That is what bothers me about 'taxi pilgrims', (also referred to as 'stamp collectors').

 

[Davey Boyd]

It is when they take the taxi, not out of necessity, by choice and get the last bunk, or all the bottom bunks, or use up the last hot water in the shower. That is what bothers me about 'taxi pilgrims', (also referred to as 'stamp collectors').

Yes but long ago bandits hunted us pilgrims. A little discomfort is slightly different I think. A tourist expects and a pilgrim is thankful. We should not judge, its not easy, but be be thankful for what you do receive. A cold shower is a shower, A bed is a bed. A church porch is a bed and a learning experience in being humble. If you don't expect you will receive. And you will be a better person if you don't judge others.

Ok, rant over (sorry).

I lived on the streets from when I was 17. I'm 50. I have lived indoors only for five years since I was 17. It was a hard life. I was a beggar, could not receive benefits, spat on, humiliated by society, judged by my refusal to die and be quiet/unseen, not even allowed to vote. But everyone in the world is my brother and sister, rich or poor, and many people of the world are poorer than a beggar in England. I was lucky my friend. Don't judge, don't expect, just be thankful.

On my first Camino I met a lady from Belgium who had been walking non stop for 8 years. She was 76 years old. She is called Anita. When I asked her why she has been walking so long she said "because of you". I did not understand until she added "Pilgrims, you are the best society in the world, you keep me alive" Please don't let her down.

Respect

Davey

 

[C clearly]

i can't help feeling angry...

Sorry to hear that. Perhaps walking back would help.

 

[Felipe]

At least, your "taxigrinos" made the queue for getting their compostelas. This implies some effort -maybe half an hour, or more, frequently under sun or rain.
People in "organized Caminos"apparently buy the right not only for vans waiting them at next road intersection in case of rain, fatigue or just boredom, but also for a "queue free" compostela or certificate. I saw the young and smiling employees from "Camino companies", with cute logos on their t-shirts, going into Pilgrim's bureau and leaving moments later with plastic bags full of compostelas -maybe twelve or fifteen each.
Well, it is as it is. Just don't let this ruin your experience. It is unique, it is yours.

 

[zzotte]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

I just walked the Camino del Norte and I venture to say the 70% of so call pilgrims use trains, buses and taxis, and here is the quicker they would take the whatever transportation of choice and stop about 5k from the albergue (like the hospitalero really gave a rats a*&) about it I asked once if "you" are getting the compostela and the answer was " I would not walked" if it was not for the compostela hahaha ok whatever makes you happy

zzotte

 

[James R B]

Would Fred Flintstone be cheating since he did have to use his feet to get power and to brake?

 

[Deleted member 34316]

Would Fred Flintstone be cheating since he did have to use his feet to get power and to brake?

Good point! This is the only kind of vehicle [IMAGE] that should be available to taxigrinos!

I just got 200th "like" for my posts, Senqu fellow Pilgrims

 

[Ahhhs]

Taxis, trains, and busses are there for those who need or want them for whatever reason. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using them. (Just as the early pilgrims may have used a little help from a donkey or horse cart if available).

The problem with accepting a Compostela is that it states right in the "stamp collecting" credencial that one must walk at least the last 100km of one's pilgrimage. If you need or want to take a taxi, that's fine but then don't accept a Compostela.

 

[PEI_Heather]

Good point! This is the only kind of vehicle [IMAGE] that should be available to taxigrinos!

I just got 200th "like" for my posts, Senqu fellow Pilgrims

(201 now! )

 

[Mark Lee]

I saw the young and smiling employees from "Camino companies", with cute logos on their t-shirts, going into Pilgrim's bureau and leaving moments later with plastic bags full of compostelas -maybe twelve or fifteen each.

That is just so strange. I do not understand that, nor do I ever want to understand that.

 

[Maryimelda]

Taxis, trains, and busses are there for those who need or want them for whatever reason. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using them. (Just as the early pilgrims may have used a little help from a donkey or horse cart if available).

The problem with accepting a Compostela is that it states right in the "stamp collecting" credencial that one must walk at least the last 100km of one's pilgrimage. If you need or want to take a taxi, that's fine but then don't accept a Compostela.

I agree.

 

[SYates]

... we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

It happens and when I see it, I just pity them, poor pilgrims what they have missed!

... People in "organized Caminos"apparently buy the right not only for vans waiting them at next road intersection in case of rain, fatigue or just boredom, but also for a "queue free" compostela or certificate. I saw the young and smiling employees from "Camino companies", with cute logos on their t-shirts, going into Pilgrim's bureau and leaving moments later with plastic bags full of compostelas -maybe twelve or fifteen each.
Well, it is as it is. Just don't let this ruin your experience. It is unique, it is yours.

That is strange, I saw the opposite happen when I picked up my last Compostela. Somebody tried to pick up Compostelas for members of their group (that were not present) and the pilgrim office staff was very strict and refused to give out Compostelas for pilgrims that weren't present. Perhaps somebody like @JohnnieWalker oder somebody that has volunteered there could clarify the different procedures? Buen Camino, SY

 

[gersevink]

Technically your Camino starts from your front door, or so I've read. I was planning on getting a ride to the airport and taking a plane over to Paris. From there a train to Le Puy-en-Velay. Will I not be considered a real pilgrim?

Yes!

 

[lovingkindness]

...in the end, what does it matter which mode of movement or transport a body takes to reach a holy site? Are’nt all who arrive there pilgrims? Some of us walk, that’s all….

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

That is strange, I saw the opposite happen when I picked up my last Compostela. Somebody tried to pick up Compostelas for members of their group (that were not present) and the pilgrim office staff was very strict and refused to give out Compostelas for pilgrims that weren't present. Perhaps somebody like @JohnnieWalker oder somebody that has volunteered there could clarify the different procedures? Buen Camino, SY

For the record, the Pilgrim Office not only encourages but will try to enforce 'fast track' Compostelas for tour groups if they identify them in the queue. Give it half a thought and it makes sense, 10 to XX pilgrims (yes, pilgrims) less in the queue; and as they all have started in the same place and there is some one 'in charge' of their group, then the Office can sort them out. And no, they don't get the Compostelas in a jiffy, but have usually have to return several hours later to collect them.

Buen Camino and happy queuing

 

[Anemone del Camino]

It happens and when I see it, I just pity them, poor pilgrims what they have missed!



That is strange, I saw the opposite happen when I picked up my last Compostela. Somebody tried to pick up Compostelas for members of their group (that were not present) and the pilgrim office staff was very strict and refused to give out Compostelas for pilgrims that weren't present. Perhaps somebody like @JohnnieWalker oder somebody that has volunteered there could clarify the different procedures? Buen Camino, SY

There is most definately a second queue for "groups". At the old place it ised to be the little office to the right of the main entrance. Now singles queue to the right while "groups" are taken elsewhere. The collector can be the tour orgaiser who then hands them out at mass, like I saw yesterday. And I put " group" in " " because it is a lossly used word: for paid organised trips but also bunches of people who met each other on the tral and who walk in together. I don't get it either.

BUT... the priest at pilgrim mass said it himself: prayers for those pilgrims who come to Santiago BY FOOT .

 

[SYates]

So application has to be made by every single member of a group but collection can be made by one person, does make sense to me! Thanks, SY

 

[Anemone del Camino]

So application has to be made by every single member of a group but collection can be made by one person, does make sense to me! Thanks, SY

I don't know what you call "application". One man walks in the office with a pile of credenciales and walks out with Compostelas.m

 

[Pingüigrino]

Congratulations to your completed pilgrimage BillyB! I hope you and your son had a great time


To the people passing by in taxis - yes, they might have been the kind who were simply too lazy to walk or didn't want to get wet because they found it too uncomfortable.

Or, they might have been sick or injured and in pain, maybe crying their eyes out because they couldn't walk, and recognizing the pilgrims their taxi passed, feeling ashamed because they knew how badly those would think about them.

You simply can't know who belongs to the one group, and who to the other.

So, don't judge – just enjoy your walk, other people's business is other people's business, you won't change it anyway. It is as it is.

Buen Camino (it never ends).

Hello. I became sick when hearing the words "dont be judgemental". It could be very difficult to accept this when you are observing year after year how so many of those "injured souls" whom are traveling by taxi day afther day, can party all nigth long, walk all the streets of Santiago , and wait for hours at Pilgrims Office´s queue to get a piece of paper they don´t deserve. Yes, you are rigth, some of them are injured, sick, elder people, whom are been trying to do the best they can. Bravo for those valiants, hardworking Pilgrims. They know who they are. But for those cheaters, those who want to savor the honey of succes, but dont like to pay the price of pain, sweat and efforts...For those ( they know who they are) only shame is what they deserve.
And yes, I will be judgemental sometimes, because sometimes I know who they are too, and I like to feel they are paying with shame every time we exchange glances.
Is it making me a bad person? Maybe, but this is the way I think, the way a feel.
Buen Camino to you all, honest people.

 

[Magwood]

I have to admit to feeling similar to the OP during my first Camino. Walking the Camino has taught me many things about myself and about others. I have learned over four caminos to be more laid back, less judgmental and just get on with my own journey without worrying too much about how others are doing theirs. But it took a while.

Don't be too hard in the OP for being honest about his feelings. The first time I walked I was surprised that not everyone was completing their journey in the same way. It wouldn't bother me now, but in did in those first few weeks of my first Camino. Be as kind and non-judgmental towards the OP as you would to taxiing pilgrims.

 

[Bogong]

...in the end, what does it matter which mode of movement or transport a body takes to reach a Holy site? Are’nt all who arrive there pilgrims? Some of us walk, that’s all….

peregrina a pie...pèlerine à pied...pilegrim til fots...pilgrim fods...Pilgerin zu Fuß...Walking pilgrim...peregrino a pé...pellegrina a piedi...προσκυνητής με τα πόδια...pelgrim te voet...romar peš...zarándok gyalog...poutník pěšky...pielgrzymujący pieszo...pilgrims fots...צליין הליכה ....etc......

You're absolutely right!

There is nothing in the Compostela which says, or even implies, that you have to get there by walking, riding, flying, swimming or any other way. It's simply a recognition that you have visited the Cathedral in an act of worship and respect. In a sense even if you live right next door and worship there as an act of piety you meet all the conditions specified on the Compostela itself. It's hard, very hard, for me to express what I feel, but tying issuance of a Compostela to a requirement that people should have walked, cycled, or ridden on horseback a certain distance to qualify in a way debases the concept of pilgrimage, although it may have a basis in tradition. I don't think we are in any position to judge a person's motives in paying homage at the Cathedral, or to tie a judgement of them to how the person arrived there.

Possibly the most devoted pilgrim I met, at the Cruz de Ferro, was a frail German gentleman in his eighties who was retracing, in a camper van, the walk he had made decades earlier. Stopping at the various sites on the way was a very emotional experience for him, and a moving experience for me. I sincerely hope he received a Compostela, if he indeed wanted one, even though he would have scarcely walked a single kilometre on the whole trip. And two lovely ladies accosted me as I was leaving Puente de la Reina, pointing out that there was no need to punish myself in this way, as salvation was a gift of grace and couldn't be earned by us. They were right of course.

The Camino has provided emotional, even life-changing experiences for many, but it's really an individual thing. For me, it was basically just a long walk along an historically significant route, meeting wonderful people and seeing wonderful things. But the purpose was not the walk itself so much as to reach the Cathedral and pay homage there. It wasn't really much different to the walk/run I do nearly every morning, only a bit longer.

De Colores

Bogong

 

[Felipe]

Well, it is the Pilgrim’s bureau issue, but I would suggest it should consider charging a fixed amount to commercial tour operators for the delivery of every compostela. And for their customers, well, if they want a “queue free” certificate, they should pay for the privilege.
I am not talking, obviously, of groups coming from a parish or brotherhood. I guess tour operators are well known to volunteers –they should go to the office regularly and actually both seemed to be in friendly terms.
Not that I am against “Camino companies” –they are probably good for the local economy. But times are changing, and principles that were right and sound in older times does not apply anymore.

 

[Waka]

Think I'll throw my two zenith into the pot.
On my camino last year I came across a coach driver or guide (not sure which one) soon after Sarria getting 50 or 60 credentials stamped in the lunch stop I was at.
I was more surprised than anything because I didn't know this went on
Was I angry, no.
Did it hold me up, no.
Did I care, no.
Should they still get a Compostela, I don't care.

The bottom line is, why waste energy on worrying about how other people are doing their thing. The most important thing is, how you do it and how comfortable and proud you are of succeeding in your own journey, however you got there.
This doesn't always happen to me, but I try to go through life thinking of the positive things in life, and put the negative ones in the bin. As I said it doesn't always work, but I try, or as some would say I'm very trying.

 

[Pabloke]

You're absolutely right!

There is nothing in the Compostela which says, or even implies, that you have to get there by walking, riding, flying, swimming or any other way. It's simply a recognition that you have visited the Cathedral in an act of worship and respect. In a sense even if you live right next door and worship there as an act of piety you meet all the conditions specified on the Compostela itself. It's hard, very hard, for me to express what I feel, but tying issuance of a Compostela to a requirement that people should have walked, cycled, or ridden on horseback a certain distance to qualify in a way debases the concept of pilgrimage, although it may have a basis in tradition. I don't think we are in any position to judge a person's motives in paying homage at the Cathedral, or to tie a judgement of them to how the person arrived there.


De Colores

Bogong

Let me correct you. This is what the Pilgrim's Office says:

In the 20th century the growth of pilgrims arriving in Santiago by vehicular transport gave rise to a concern that the aspects of effort and sacrifice previously characteristic of the pilgrimage may be lost or diminished. It was also the case that there was a growth in certificates issued by other bodies which sought to imitate the traditional Compostela. Therefore the Cathedral of Santiago decided that to gain a Compostela a pilgrim had to provide evidence on a credencial that they had walked or travelled on horseback at least the last 100kms of their journey to Santiago and, if travelling by bicycle, the last 200kms. That rule still stands today.

http://peregrinossantiago.es/eng/pilgrimage/the-compostela/

No choice, here. This is how it is supposed to be done. Then, everybody is free to observe it or not.

 

[Annette london]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

We have recently finished the via francegina in Italy and it was a wonderful journey. Did we walk every step? No we didn't as on 2 occasions we had to get a bus. Due to time constraints,we were walking long distances and on one occasion I was almost "done in" and could not walk another step. In fact I was asked if I needed a hospital.!! I didn't think I looked that bad!! The second time was a long Tarmac section which plays havoc on the feet. Did we feel guilty? Certainly not! On a few occasions we met a 92 year old lady journeying from Lucca to Rome with her daughter. She would walk about 12-14 km a day and then get a bus. She was pulling a heavy case on wheels behind her(heavens knows what was in that case but it was heavy!!) I felt it a privilege one day when she let me pull it for a km or so. A deeply religious woman--- did she deserve her compestelas?? Certainly she did.
Further along we met a German family walking with 2children aged 3 and 5 doing the same thing. Did they deserve their compestelas--- have you ever walked with 2 small children for 15km a day!!! They deserve a medal and more!!! Perhaps a knighthood!!
My only gripe about so called pilgrims are those who call themselves pilgrims and get their credentials stamped each day just to get a cheap bed in an albergue or worse-- equate a donitivo bed with a free bed. This does a disservice to all pilgrims.
We are not pilgrims so stay in cheap pensions or hotels but on one occasion we did stay in a donotivo albergue.
I swear that we were the only ones out of 15 people to put money (what a room would have cost us) in the box.
I know that because we were the last to leave and I shook the box(mea culpa) and there was nothing in it. NADA.
What must the lovely volunteers who give of their time and effort think of us? I know what I would think,but it's unprintable here. Anyway Bueno Camino whatever way you get there.

 

[IngridF]

Hmm,so why were you all so upset when I told you I used my Unicorn

 

[Rich1]

Good thoughts by all.

I travelled from SJPDP to Santiago last year. I covered every inch by foot - that was a personal thing. I loved every second on my Camino.
However, My compostera is still its original tube.
When I arrived at Santiago, it was a real anti-climax. I was totally under-whelmed for 24 hours. It made me realise that it is the journey that's so important, not the destination. A bit of paper isn't the important thing - it's the memories, the experiences, the joy and the sheer sense of wonder that I experienced. That is makes the Camino such a wonderful thing. This year, my wife & I walked from SJPDP to Burgos - and she felt it too

 

[DeadFred]

Congratulations to your completed pilgrimage BillyB! I hope you and your son had a great time


To the people passing by in taxis - yes, they might have been the kind who were simply too lazy to walk or didn't want to get wet because they found it too uncomfortable.

Or, they might have been sick or injured and in pain, maybe crying their eyes out because they couldn't walk, and recognizing the pilgrims their taxi passed, feeling ashamed because they knew how badly those would think about them.

You simply can't know who belongs to the one group, and who to the other.

So, don't judge – just enjoy your walk, other people's business is other people's business, you won't change it anyway. It is as it is.

Buen Camino (it never ends).

Well said .. This is my second attempt , first one on 2014 put me in los arcos with bone spur on L 5 and a slipped disk . I had to go home
Im back now in Viana started in Los Arcos and have a bursa on my left knee . Can hardly walk . Im resting for a couple days in logrono .. if it doesnt improve i might have bus/taxi part or all of it. Maybe I should keep my head down case I get judged?

 

[grayland]

A gentle reminder to respect the opinions of all posters here.

All are entitled to feel as they wish....even if it sometimes is at odds with others.
Each one is welcome to have their own feelings as to what constitutes a proper Camino without being labeled "judgemental" by others who disagree.

The Camino has (sadly) changed greatly over the past few years and the discussions of this sort are an expression of this.
Let everyone have an outlet for their thoughts...even if you disagree.

Thanks for keeping the conversation civil (to this point).

 

[good_old_shoes]

DeadFred, I hope your knee heals well and you will be able to walk all the way. If not, that's just the way it is. You'll surely make the best of it anyway Buen Camino, however you get there!

 

[Pingüigrino]

Good thoughts by all.

I travelled from SJPDP to Santiago last year. I covered every inch by foot - that was a personal thing. I loved every second on my Camino.
However, My compostera is still its original tube.
When I arrived at Santiago, it was a real anti-climax. I was totally under-whelmed for 24 hours. It made me realise that it is the journey that's so important, not the destination. A bit of paper isn't the important thing - it's the memories, the experiences, the joy and the sheer sense of wonder that I experienced. That is makes the Camino such a wonderful thing. This year, my wife & I walked from SJPDP to Burgos - and she felt it too

You are speaking for me. I have walked many caminos, only have one credencial, and it is sleeping in their tube since the very moment I got it.

 

[Pingüigrino]

Well said .. This is my second attempt , first one on 2014 put me in los arcos with bone spur on L 5 and a slipped disk . I had to go home
Im back now in Viana started in Los Arcos and have a bursa on my left knee . Can hardly walk . Im resting for a couple days in logrono .. if it doesnt improve i might have bus/taxi part or all of it. Maybe I should keep my head down case I get judged?

I think if you are doing what you honestly can, you are a very respectable person. Keep you head up, Peregrino. Take care of your knee, enjoy. Buen Camino.

 

[Felipe]

The Arzúa / O Pedrouzo stage is a favorite of pilgrims –very picturesque, with little green paths, trees, farms, cows. Everybody is in a good mood and already a bit nostalgic, because the Camino is almost over.
Last year I walked this stage with many, many walkers, almost a continuous line. But after A Brea, suddenly half of them disappeared. Many vans were waiting for them here, at El Empalme, apparently because the “best part” of the stage was over (the rest is a long walk along a highway, with only a short path by a eucalyptus wood). So, no need to be weary and tired at the end of the day, especially when there was the beginning of a light rain.
Make no mistake, I quite enjoyed the company. They were polite, respectful, and I was asked many times about the Camino, how tough it had been, etc., and some were even talking about doing the way on his own account next time. It was a merry company, and actually I felt a bit lonely after they had left.

 

[Rick M]

Hello. I became sick when hearing the words "dont be judgemental". It could be very difficult to accept this when you are observing year after year how so many of those "injured souls" whom are traveling by taxi day afther day, can party all nigth long, walk all the streets of Santiago , and wait for hours at Pilgrims Office´s queue to get a piece of paper they don´t deserve. Yes, you are rigth, some of them are injured, sick, elder people, whom are been trying to do the best they can. Bravo for those valiants, hardworking Pilgrims. They know who they are. But for those cheaters, those who want to savor the honey of succes, but dont like to pay the price of pain, sweat and efforts...For those ( they know who they are) only shame is what they deserve.
And yes, I will be judgemental sometimes, because sometimes I know who they are too, and I like to feel they are paying with shame every time we exchange glances.
Is it making me a bad person? Maybe, but this is the way I think, the way a feel.
Buen Camino to you all, honest people.

My wife and I completed the CF from SJPP last week, it was glorious. We were surprised when we learned how many pilgrims were having their baggage shipped ahead for them, while we carried everything on our backs. Lots of snarky comments from our fellow pilgrims when we started encountering the large groups of "touregrinos" in the last 100 km. Many felt the way you do, but for my part, I just felt amusement at their worried, hurried antics.

When I still had brown hair, I learned a great deal about business (and life!) from a mentor who was much wiser than I. One day, we walked out of a negotiation and I found myself furious that, while we had gotten what we wanted, we realized that the other guy had come out of the deal very handsomely indeed. I railed about this for some time in the car since I felt we had been fools and had been cheated - even though we got what we asked for. He listened patiently until my anger cooled. He then said: "Rick, you will have a much happier life if you can concentrate on counting your own money, and never mind counting someone else's".

I believe these words to be true in this case as well.

 

[TaijiPilgrim]

Lessons from my two caminos that I have been trying to learn include acceptance and being less judgmental. I am still working on these! I still admit to mixed feelings about those on the camino using taxis, van service, etc. and for my own mea culpa of using the bus twice and a taxi once. And I ponder the question of who is a "real" pilgrim. What I do realize is that each person who walks the Camino knows in their own hearts why they are walking and if they consider themselves a pilgrim. And it does not matter what I might think of them.

 

[Pingüigrino]

Hi all. From my point of view, it could be importantless the way anyone is doing the Camino, it could be not the problem of no one. The problem with the "orde" of turi-grinos ( called it the persons who are saying they are pilrims, but cheating, not true tourists, nor true pilgrims) is that they are killing the sense of the Camino. The Camino is what it is becaouse the effort, the sacrifice, the pain, the sweat, the discomform, the cold the heat etc and the rewards we recibe is beating those feelings.
When somebody fight agains the temptations of quiting, and at the end of their daily stage arrives at the albergue to join their companions pilgrims, is the sense of this small victory what makes the camino diferent from others itineraries. To be there, inside an albergue, resting, relieving your pain, your heat, your cold,,,this is the reward you have daily. But then, you arrives to a town where there are two buses of Tourist-grinos wearing clean dry clothes, occupying the tables of the only restauran there is in this town, disturbing your rest because they are no tired and is sooo nice to talk a talk till midnight in those woooonderful gardens, sharing laugs and one or maybe a dozen of bottles of wine with their fellow "pilgrims"... ( nor to say when arrivinmg to a town, all the albergues are full, going to a private albergue, hotel, casa rural, etc to find its full of those tours operators clients. No problem you can always walk for one or two more hours).
When you finally arrives to Santiago with your muddy boots, your dirthy clothes, and a BIG smile on your face, to find them with their Compostelas in their hads, lets try not been judgemental.
When a soldier receives a medal, this medal means he did their duty, and he wears his medal with pride and honour. If this same soldier knows this medal is been given to everybody who can pay for it, he will not valorate this medal means, nobody will, no matters the way each one have acquired it, no matter what it means.
This is the reason why I dont like turigrinos or tour operatorsgrinos.
I know due my bad english is very dificult for me to express the full sense of what I want to transmit, and difficult to you to understand my bad grammar, incorrect expressions and mistakes, but I´m trying to improve.
What I´m traying to say is the Camino is a blessing for us, just for the sense of pilgrimage in a modern era without the comfort whe are used to have.
If we let the comfort contaminate the Camino, the Camino will die.
Buen Camino to you, all honest people.

 

[vlebe]

I lived on the streets from when I was 17. I'm 50. I have lived indoors only for five years since I was 17. It was a hard life. I was a beggar, could not receive benefits, spat on, humiliated by society, judged by my refusal to die and be quiet/unseen, not even allowed to vote. But everyone in the world is my brother and sister, rich or poor, and many people of the world are poorer than a beggar in England. I was lucky my friend. Don't judge, don't expect, just be thankful.

On my first Camino I met a lady from Belgium who had been walking non stop for 8 years. She was 76 years old. She is called Anita. When I asked her why she has been walking so long she said "because of you". I did not understand until she added "Pilgrims, you are the best society in the world, you keep me alive" Please don't let her down.

Respect

That was Brilliant Davey! :-D

Loved it!



Buen Camino to you all.

 

[Pabloke]

on foot or riding for one hundred thousand meters,

I'm a bit dislexic.

I've read for one hundred thousand kilometers.

I was thinking I have no time enough.

 

[grayland]

100,000 km @ 25km average per day would only be 4000 days ( if you did not take any rest days).
Piece of cake.
Give you something to do for the next 10.95 years

Unless...I got a decimal in the wrong place.

 

[Castilian]

Since 2015 or even some time in 2014,

Since sometime in 2014.

 

[Pingüigrino]

This is no longer true. Since 2015 or even some time in 2014, the Latin text on the Compostela mentions perfecto itinere sive pedibus sive equitando post postrema centum milia metrorum, birota vero post ducenta which means: on foot or riding for one hundred thousand meters, by bicycle for two hundred thousand meters. Nobody has bothered to update the text and its translations on their website ... is this perhaps a sign of how little it all matters?

I would not compare a Compostela to a medal for a soldier. It's more like the medal you get when you complete a marathon - and where you are among the rank and file and not the elite runners who are professionals. It's a private thing.

Yes for sure, good example. I will run next marathon by taxi, running only when arriving near a check point. Hope nobody would be judgemental when I hang this medal on my "I love myself wall". It will be a private thing. ( Just joking)
But I think the point I am trying to state is understanable for everybody here.
Buen Camino to you, all honest people.

 

[Nanc]

100,000 meters not kilometers

 

[Pabloke]

. I have no idea how modern Latin works. When I had figured out what the text means, I verified at least three times that I had got it right and, yes, one hundred thousand meters is the same as 100 km.

I remember I learnt all the latin declensions but now I'm not able to recall a simple word.

100,000 km @ 25km average per day would only be 4000 days ( if you did not take any rest days).
Piece of cake.
Give you something to do for the next 10.95 years

Unless...I got a decimal in the wrong place.

Eleven years walking without a break.

Well, I could become the best buttocks model.

Is it allowed to say buttock?

 

[obinjatoo@yahoo.com]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

Well done you! I wouldn't waste time fretting over who did what. It is their loss. It was bucketing down rain for my last few days into Santiago and it was great! It is between me and God, we both know what I did and did not do. I wouldn't change a thing. I stayed 3 or so days in Santiago then went on to walk first to Muxia and then down to Finisterre. It was like a vacation. One of the most satisfying experience of my life!
I hope it is for you too.

 

[Bogong]

Let me correct you. This is what the Pilgrim's Office says:

In the 20th century the growth of pilgrims arriving in Santiago by vehicular transport gave rise to a concern that the aspects of effort and sacrifice previously characteristic of the pilgrimage may be lost or diminished. It was also the case that there was a growth in certificates issued by other bodies which sought to imitate the traditional Compostela. Therefore the Cathedral of Santiago decided that to gain a Compostela a pilgrim had to provide evidence on a credencial that they had walked or travelled on horseback at least the last 100kms of their journey to Santiago and, if travelling by bicycle, the last 200kms. That rule still stands today.

http://peregrinossantiago.es/eng/pilgrimage/the-compostela/

No choice, here. This is how it is supposed to be done. Then, everybody is free to observe it or not.

Thanks, but you have in a sense confirmed exactly what I said. The Compostela, in Latin, welcomes as pilgrims all who visit and worship in reverence and piety. It says nothing about distance,or the need to produce a signed credencial. The rule you referred to is a stricture imposed for administrative purposes , but in no way is it a definition of who is or isn't a pilgrim. The idea of effort or sacrifice as a means of earning salvation, or getting an indulgence, is medieval and to my knowledge not current theology of any branch of the catholic (small "c") church. They all follow the dictum that salvation is by grace, through faith, and not of human works or sacrifice.

If the distance rule was taken to define who was or was not a pilgrim it would run counter to the wording of the Compostela.

And the rule doesn't work anyway. The Camino is an important business, and the economy, and to a significant extent I would venture, the stamping of credencials, is oriented to this. I walked mainly in winter and crossed paths from time to time with about twenty other pilgrims. I caught up with a fair number in Santiago. The last two days I saw only one other pilgrim.

But there were still numbers walking out of the Pilgrim Office with Compostelas, claiming to have walked in from Sarria that morning. Some were decked out in brand new looking clean dry hiking gear, boots with no dirt or wear - after six days of constant rain, mud, paths like running streams? Well, so what, they are there, and I've no reason to question their commitment as pilgrims.
A Swiss lady whom I walked with from time to time said she had on one or two occasions bumped into a busload of tourists. The bus stopped near a bar, the bus driver hopped out, got a fistful of credentials stamped and off they went again. They would have travelled around visiting the sites, probably stayed in a posh hotel that night and had their credencials stamped there as well. Again, so what? Similarly in Granada there was a notice on a community board from a bus company advertising a full tour with a Compostela at the end. It's an important source of tourism revenue to a community which, particularly in winter sorely needs it, and such patronage in a sense provides a means of Christian outreach.

Who are we to judge the motives of anybody else, because we think they haven't done things the way we think they should have been done? One of the most pious ladies I know did the trip by bus; her health at the time rendered her incapable of doing it any other way.

Indeed if we pass judgement on others because we have walked a distance and they perhaps haven't we are unworthy to regard ourselves as pilgrims, and our Compostelas have been obtained dishonestly.

De Colores

Bogong

 

[Bogong]

I was referring of course to the Compostela I received early in 2014. A change in the Latin wording compromises the whole idea of pilgrimage. But it remains unenforceable, and sadly runs the danger of rendering the whole thing a falsity.

 

[capecorps]

Ecstasy is a harsh mistress.

Forget comfort, pleasure, fame, fortune, contentment or even happiness; they are as dust blown in the wind. Some, if they’re lucky may have five minutes of her company in an entire lifetime. Others never meet her. A moment of her time passes in the blink of an eye and lasts a thousand years. She is the innocence of your first kiss on a moon lit summer’s night; she is the birth of your first child. We have climbed the highest mountains, descended to the deepest depths of the ocean, composed achingly beautiful music, made wondrous scientific discoveries, conquered the world, stretched out our hand and reached for the stars: for just one moment of her time. Alexander wept because there were no more worlds to conquer.

The way to ecstasy is a vale of tears. The road is paved with hardship, pain and suffering; through the darkest night of the soul.

She awaits you in the Cathedral in Santiago.

 

[Irish Bernie]

Hmm,so why were you all so upset when I told you I used my Unicorn

YES i was upset when yer unicorn ate my socks off the washing line !!!!!

 

[vgen5122]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

In the the brigade of the 200 pilgrims that passed you, there probably were people that had started their journey walking the same as you did from SJPDP to Sarria. Then these people decided to take a taxi to Santiago for some reason or another. Many pilgrims just walk the last 100km and that is it. Is it fair that they get the same certificate that I would get? The answer is probably not, but I did not come on this pilgrimage to pay attention to someone else's journey. I wanted to concentrate on what I would get out of the experience.
During my journey did I learn anything about myself, life, Spain, or other people from other cultures? If someone were really hot to get a certificate, a person could buy one from the store across the street from the pilgrims office in Santiago. It is not official but it is a certificate.
The real tale of your journey in carried in your 800 km experience, memories you have and the people that you met. It is followed by your sore feet, and your healing blisters all the way home.
I really hope you had a meaningful journey with your son.
Buen Camino

 

[Bradypus]

Is it allowed to say buttock?

I hope so, considering some of the alternatives we might have to use instead

 

[Bradypus]

The last time I tried to find out in how far the sola fide sola gratia concept is part of current Catholic teaching (it is a major element of the Reformation) the thread was shut down so I'm not trying to address this anymore. Ignorance is bliss, they say.

Didn't Martin Luther marry an ex-nun called Katharina? Obviously something deeply heretical about the name

 

[Felipe]

Pilgrimage as a penance was a well established practice, I think. I don't know about recent Church teachings on the issue, but the venerable Catholic Encyclopedia has some interesting readings. It quotes a canon from the times of King Edgar (959-75): "It is a deep penitence that a layman lay aside his weapons and travel far barefoot and nowhere pass a second night and fast and watch much and pray fervently, by day and by night and willingly undergo fatigue and be so squalid that iron come not on hair or on nail". (If you are interested, you can read also the entry for "Salvation" (i.e "Grace").
Pilgrimage, as many authors have noticed, used to be also a canonical sentence for some crimes; hence the need for the Compostela. This tradition has not entirely disappeared, because in Spain you can eventually share the Camino with inmates from some jails (read here, sorry, only in Spanish).

 

[William Marques]

Even when pilgrimage was undertaken as a penance plenty of pilgrims undertook pilgrimage, which was mostly relatively local (i.e. within ones own country), for many other reasons as today.

 

[bunnymac]

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

As frustrating as you found this, try not to let it interfere with your experience. People approach the Camino in different ways and it's not for you or me to judge them. A couple of years ago, I took a week out of my very busy life to walk from Logrono to Burgos. One of the days I got talking to a guy en route and explained that I was (unfortunately) there for just a week but hoped to return to finish at a later date. To which he replied ' Oh you're one of THOSE'. I have to admit, it really stung. I felt judged. Here was someone who didn't know me or anything about my journey deciding to become judge and jury. Funnily, he claimed to be a travel writer, despite much googling I have yet to come across any published works by him.

 

[Castilian]

The last time I tried to find out in how far the sola fide sola gratia concept is part of current Catholic teaching (it is a major element of the Reformation) the thread was shut down so I'm not trying to address this anymore.

www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[Pabloke]

Thanks, but you have in a sense confirmed exactly what I said. The Compostela, in Latin, welcomes as pilgrims all who visit and worship in reverence and piety. It says nothing about distance,or the need to produce a signed credencial. The rule you referred to is a stricture imposed for administrative purposes , but in no way is it a definition of who is or isn't a pilgrim. The idea of effort or sacrifice as a means of earning salvation, or getting an indulgence, is medieval and to my knowledge not current theology of any branch of the catholic (small "c") church. They all follow the dictum that salvation is by grace, through faith, and not of human works or sacrifice.

If the distance rule was taken to define who was or was not a pilgrim it would run counter to the wording of the Compostela.

De Colores

Bogong

I think you are wrong about the meaning of the Compostela. I don't think it is a welcoming for visiting and worshiping, it's a diploma, a certificate, for doing something in the way they're asking for. And that's the main point in this debate, in my opinion. There are some established rules to gain a Compostela and if we want to get one we should observe and respect them.

We can make the Camino the way we want to, for the time and distance we want to and for the reasons we want to, that has nothing to do with the fact of getting a Compostela. But there are some rules, even if they are not written (actually they are in the official pilgrim's credential).

Why do we want a Compostela if we don't accept the rules? Is a Compostela really needed?

Being or not a pilgrim depends on many factors (technically, pilgrim means foreigner), I could say I am a real one and others could say the opposite, but the Santiago's Cathedral's rules are clear on this matter.

 

[Bradypus]

To which he replied ' Oh you're one of THOSE'. I have to admit, it really stung. I felt judged. Here was someone who didn't know me or anything about my journey deciding to become judge and jury.

Over the years I have lost count of the many different ways in which I have been told I have failed to be a "real pilgrim". I walk too fast. I carry too much gear. I am not Catholic. I walk routes other than the One True Camino. I walk alone (mostly). I have been known to drink alcohol on rare occasions. I sometimes choose my own path rather than follow the yellow arrows. I do not walk all the way from my doorstep (which is tricky as I live on a small island off the coast of France). I wear boots rather than walk barefoot. I like to sleep indoors most nights. I carry money rather than allow the Camino to provide my needs (ie. sponge off others who are self-evidently even less genuine pilgrims than myself). I read maps and guides before I set off rather than be guided entirely by the Spirit of the Camino..... Most of the time these criticisms pass like water off a duck's back. I like to think of myself as serene, tolerant and liberal. It can be difficult at times. When my patience is very severely tested I try to remember the maxim usually misattributed to Voltaire: "I think you are talking out of your **** but I will defend to the death your right to do so." (my own loose paraphrase)

 

[Irish Bernie]

Over the years I have lost count of the many different ways in which I have been told I have failed to be a "real pilgrim". I walk too fast. I carry too much gear. I am not Catholic. I walk routes other than the One True Camino. I walk alone (mostly). I have been known to drink alcohol on rare occasions. I sometimes choose my own path rather than follow the yellow arrows. I do not walk all the way from my doorstep (which is tricky as I live on a small island off the coast of France). I wear boots rather than walk barefoot. I like to sleep indoors most nights. I carry money rather than allow the Camino to provide my needs (ie. sponge off others who are self-evidently even less genuine pilgrims than myself). I read maps and guides before I set off rather than be guided entirely by the Spirit of the Camino..... Most of the time these criticisms pass like water off a duck's back. I like to think of myself as serene, tolerant and liberal. It can be difficult at times. When my patience is very severely tested I try to remember the maxim usually misattributed to Voltaire: "I think you are talking out of your **** but I will defend to the death your right to do so." (my own loose paraphrase)

Shocking, if you received a compostela could you please send it back to the pilgrims office, you fraud you, as for drinking alcohol, you should be ashamed !!!!!

 

[Sangar]

My husband and I are starting "our camino" from Sarria on June 4th. We were so excited that we got the opportunity to do what we can. My excitement faded as I read some of the comments on this forum about "who the real pilgrims are" But now I decided, I don't care what the judgmental people say. I will enjoy this and make the most out of it. It is not how far you walk and how you carry your things along the camino, it is what you get out of it. Life is too short, it may the the first or the last for me but this is going to be my best for now. Thank you for all the information and for the encouragement. God bless us all!!!

 

[Felipe]

I generally avoid contentious issues, but this thread has been as interesting as respectful. So, here there are, my opinions (which has been evolving, since my first pilgrimage), for what they could be worth.
In the Camino there are rules, and there are opinions. When I ask for my credential, I implicitly accept the conditions (meaning, it is for pilgrims doing the Camino on foot, bicycle or horse). If I ask for my Compostela, I should have done the last 100/200 km the same way.
Yes, there are and there will be always situations where exemptions are allowed to the general rule; that is why persons in charge (as hospitaleros, or the volunteers at Casa del Peregrino) should have some leeway and flexibility (as they usually have). That does not mean that general rules are just “suggestions”.
On the other side, there are opinions about traveling alone or in organized groups, big or minimal backpacks, with or without technical gadgets, staying in public albergues or five stars hotels, organizing communal diners or frequenting only Michelin-approved restaurants, resorting or not to baggage carrying services. They can be more or less accepted but they are just that –opinions. I think they are better left to social consensus or personal decisions.
But not everything is “optional” in the Camino.

 

[C clearly]

I read some of the comments on this forum about "who the real pilgrims are."

I hope you didn't just focus on those unhappy comments, and also noticed that the tolerant posters far exceed the number of harshly judgemental ones. This is an internet forum; there are always a few (or more) angry posts on any open forum, on any topic.

I will enjoy this and make the most out of it.

You will! Buen camino!

 

[William Marques]

This thread seems to have kept on topic and as long as the posts are respectful of each others opinions it will not be locked. If it takes a direction which is personal and insulting which I sincerely hope it does not, it will be shut down.

 

[Felipe]

My husband and I are starting "our camino" from Sarria on June 4th. We were so excited that we got the opportunity to do what we can. My excitement faded as I read some of the comments on this forum about "who the real pilgrims are" But now I decided, I don't care what the judgmental people say. I will enjoy this and make the most out of it.

Actually, this kind of discussions is rather unusual in the Camino. Besides some casual and rare remarks, people are helpful and cheerful. And there are so many walkers in the Sarriá-Compostela stages that you can choose your company (this does not happen in more isolated ways, where you meet the same people again and again, for good or for bad).
On the other side, hospitaleros (especially those who have been in the Camino for many years) tend to have strong opinions about modern pilgrimage and "the older times". They are usually interesting people, and I enjoy talking with them, when they have the time and are in the mood; but they decidedly have vehement opinions.

 

[J F Gregory]

My wife and I walked our Camino March 17 - April 25. I don't recall where we were but came across a bus load of Pilgrims riding their Camino. They were physical, emotionally and mentally handicapped. My wife and I had walked about 20 km that day when we met them. They were so excited to meet walking pilgrims and we had lunch with them. They left on their bus about the same time we started walking again. They were not walking, but truly making pilgrimage to Santiago. God bless them.

 

[SYates]

I posted this in another, related, thread but I think I post it here again

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrinus_(Roman) Peregrinus lat. means the (free) stranger that comes over the fields. The original meaning makes no reference so ever to the method to cross those fields used. Buen Camino, SY

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I think it goes deeper than people cheating on requirements to get a meaningless paper souvenir.

I think what really bothers some of us is this: We know the Camino de Santiago was held sacred for hundreds of years, by millions of people -- the same people whose footsteps and hoofbeats made the trail a sacred place.
We feel honored to join those past travelers along the trail, we marvel that we can take part in this holy journey, stripped-down to minimum possessions, passing through places where our basic needs are met for minimal costs; a social infrastructure built over years to support the pilgrims' journey of transformation. We put our own blood and sweat into the journey.

So we are upset, seeing this sacred place and holy itinerary turned into a low-budget holiday hike, or a backdrop for attention-seeking stunts. "Fellow pilgrims" are self-absorbed trend-chasers who have no clue what the camino is about and not much interest in finding out -- because being a pilgrim often means personal sacrifice, change, pain, and thinking beyond one's self, possessions, addictions, and preconceptions.

It's not the Camino to the tomb of St. James any more. It's "the journey." It's "My personal inner path." It's MY Camino, done MY way, and don't you dare offer advice or counsel or anything outside what I've decided, because that would be "judging." The Camino is no longer about a silly, idealistic community of holy travelers. It's about Me, Me, Me, getting my needs met.

And of course the marketers, hucksters, cab drivers, gurus, and hoteliers swarm like flies to this consumer honey-pot. Bunkhouse beds meant for low-income hikers are full of middle-class freeloaders. Newer, shinier, costlier bunkhouses eventually replace them. The poor are sent back into the streets to sleep.

None of us is poor -- a truly poor pilgrim doesn't post on internet forums. But when we see short-haul tourists zipping past in taxis, collecting the rewards meant for "true" pilgrims -- it violates our sense of justice.

We see something we honor and love being desecrated. That's why it rankles.

 

[Mark Lee]

Rebekah Scott
Couldn't have said better myself....

 

[Icacos]

I think it goes deeper than people cheating on requirements to get a meaningless paper souvenir.

I think what really bothers some of us is this: We know the Camino de Santiago was held sacred for hundreds of years, by millions of people -- the same people whose footsteps and hoofbeats made the trail a sacred place.
We feel honored to join those past travelers along the trail, we marvel that we can take part in this holy journey, stripped-down to minimum possessions, passing through places where our basic needs are met for minimal costs; a social infrastructure built over years to support the pilgrims' journey of transformation. We put our own blood and sweat into the journey.

So we are upset, seeing this sacred place and holy itinerary turned into a low-budget holiday hike, or a backdrop for attention-seeking stunts. "Fellow pilgrims" are self-absorbed trend-chasers who have no clue what the camino is about and not much interest in finding out -- because being a pilgrim often means personal sacrifice, change, pain, and thinking beyond one's self, possessions, addictions, and preconceptions.

It's not the Camino to the tomb of St. James any more. It's "the journey." It's "My personal inner path." It's MY Camino, done MY way, and don't you dare offer advice or counsel or anything outside what I've decided, because that would be "judging." The Camino is no longer about a silly, idealistic community of holy travelers. It's about Me, Me, Me, getting my needs met.

And of course the marketers, hucksters, cab drivers, gurus, and hoteliers swarm like flies to this consumer honey-pot. Bunkhouse beds meant for low-income hikers are full of middle-class freeloaders. Newer, shinier, costlier bunkhouses eventually replace them. The poor are sent back into the streets to sleep.

None of us is poor -- a truly poor pilgrim doesn't post on internet forums. But when we see short-haul tourists zipping past in taxis, collecting the rewards meant for "true" pilgrims -- it violates our sense of justice.

We see something we honor and love being desecrated. That's why it rankles.

My gosh, Rebekah, you have outdone even yourself with this post. I think you will be sending a lot of people, myself included, scurrying off to do some soul-searching. Thank you.

 

[alexwalker]

I think it goes deeper than people cheating on requirements to get a meaningless paper souvenir.

I think what really bothers some of us is this: We know the Camino de Santiago was held sacred for hundreds of years, by millions of people -- the same people whose footsteps and hoofbeats made the trail a sacred place.
We feel honored to join those past travelers along the trail, we marvel that we can take part in this holy journey, stripped-down to minimum possessions, passing through places where our basic needs are met for minimal costs; a social infrastructure built over years to support the pilgrims' journey of transformation. We put our own blood and sweat into the journey.

So we are upset, seeing this sacred place and holy itinerary turned into a low-budget holiday hike, or a backdrop for attention-seeking stunts. "Fellow pilgrims" are self-absorbed trend-chasers who have no clue what the camino is about and not much interest in finding out -- because being a pilgrim often means personal sacrifice, change, pain, and thinking beyond one's self, possessions, addictions, and preconceptions.

It's not the Camino to the tomb of St. James any more. It's "the journey." It's "My personal inner path." It's MY Camino, done MY way, and don't you dare offer advice or counsel or anything outside what I've decided, because that would be "judging." The Camino is no longer about a silly, idealistic community of holy travelers. It's about Me, Me, Me, getting my needs met.

And of course the marketers, hucksters, cab drivers, gurus, and hoteliers swarm like flies to this consumer honey-pot. Bunkhouse beds meant for low-income hikers are full of middle-class freeloaders. Newer, shinier, costlier bunkhouses eventually replace them. The poor are sent back into the streets to sleep.

None of us is poor -- a truly poor pilgrim doesn't post on internet forums. But when we see short-haul tourists zipping past in taxis, collecting the rewards meant for "true" pilgrims -- it violates our sense of justice.

We see something we honor and love being desecrated. That's why it rankles.

I am very much with you on this one, Rebekah; For example, when I was walking 30+ kms. to get some assistance from Reb & Scotty (30 is a bit out of my comfort zone...) , I paused in St. Juan de Ortega, at the albergue Jaques de Molay. I had a good rest there, knowing I had a place to stay a further 6 kms away, so I asked the ""pilgrims" there if they knew the importance of the name of their albergue for the day: "Jaques de Molay". Noone knew the meaning or background. Interesting, to say the least: have pilgrims become clueless, or are they simply tourists?

I do not mean this to be any form of criticism: It is only sad that some people do not understand what a fantastic country, countryside and history they are walking straight through.

FYI: Jaques de Molay was the last Grand Master of the Knights Templars, hit down by the Pope and the king of France on Friday sept. 13, 1107, which is the reason why Friday 13 is considered a bad day. Much more to this story, but I refrain:Takes too much time to write. It didn't turn up good for the Pope and the King of France, though... When Jaques de Molay was burnt at the stake in 1312 (I think), after severe torture from the Church, his last words was that he swore that they would both die within a year. The French king died within three weeks later, and the Pope within a year after...

 

[C clearly]

I think it goes deeper than people cheating on requirements to get a meaningless paper souvenir.

I think what really bothers some of us is this: We know the Camino de Santiago was held sacred for hundreds of years, by millions of people -- the same people whose footsteps and hoofbeats made the trail a sacred place.
We feel honored to join those past travelers along the trail, we marvel that we can take part in this holy journey, stripped-down to minimum possessions, passing through places where our basic needs are met for minimal costs; a social infrastructure built over years to support the pilgrims' journey of transformation. We put our own blood and sweat into the journey.

So we are upset, seeing this sacred place and holy itinerary turned into a low-budget holiday hike, or a backdrop for attention-seeking stunts. "Fellow pilgrims" are self-absorbed trend-chasers who have no clue what the camino is about and not much interest in finding out -- because being a pilgrim often means personal sacrifice, change, pain, and thinking beyond one's self, possessions, addictions, and preconceptions.

It's not the Camino to the tomb of St. James any more. It's "the journey." It's "My personal inner path." It's MY Camino, done MY way, and don't you dare offer advice or counsel or anything outside what I've decided, because that would be "judging." The Camino is no longer about a silly, idealistic community of holy travelers. It's about Me, Me, Me, getting my needs met.

And of course the marketers, hucksters, cab drivers, gurus, and hoteliers swarm like flies to this consumer honey-pot. Bunkhouse beds meant for low-income hikers are full of middle-class freeloaders. Newer, shinier, costlier bunkhouses eventually replace them. The poor are sent back into the streets to sleep.

None of us is poor -- a truly poor pilgrim doesn't post on internet forums. But when we see short-haul tourists zipping past in taxis, collecting the rewards meant for "true" pilgrims -- it violates our sense of justice.

We see something we honor and love being desecrated. That's why it rankles.

I appreciate what you are saying. But I have to admit that I am shrinking back into a corner trying to stay invisible. I doubt that I qualify as a true pilgrim although something about it has certainly captured my interest. I hope that, as a middle-class traveler, I do not detract from the experience of others, whatever their class or motives may be.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

It's not the Camino to the tomb of St. James any more. It's "the journey." It's "My personal inner path." It's MY Camino, done MY way, and don't you dare offer advice or counsel or anything outside what I've decided, because that would be "judging." The Camino is no longer about a silly, idealistic community of holy travelers. It's about Me, Me, Me, getting my needs met.

I "liked" your post Rebekah but I wanted to answer the above with a comment. Ages ago I read a book with the title of something like "If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him." The title came from a Buddhist saying and its meaning was essentially that one must find one's own path.

That said, I was often annoyed on the camino by pack forwarding, etc. The annoyance would pass fairly quickly for two reasons: I would realize that I wasn't a judge and that I was walking because The Way was a "good walk" and there were probably plenty of "real pilgrims" annoyed at me for taking up bed space on a religious pilgrimage.

 

[Pabloke]

I posted this in another, related, thread but I think I post it here again

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrinus_(Roman) Peregrinus lat. means the (free) stranger that comes over the fields. The original meaning makes no reference so ever to the method to cross those fields used. Buen Camino, SY

Later, in the Middle Ages, in the southern Europe, the term was gradually replaced by frank, that's the origin of Camino Francés and Via Francigena names; routes used by franks, foreign people from the north. Also, franks were free men as they use to be common people with no obligations towards local lords. This status was extended to the towns they founded or they settled in, that's why there are many Villafrancas both in Spain and Italy.

It is supposed that peregrinus remained as a cultured form related to those foreigners in a religious travel, and frank emerged as a more popular form.

 

[amorfati1]

It is only the second time in a year that I notice that someone mentions this.

For many people - and according to the assorted vast Camino literature - pilgrimage, at least pilgrimage on foot, needs an element of hardship, pain, effort, sacrifice, otherwise it's not a proper pilgrimage. Hence the disdain for those who opt for a more effortless pilgrimage (why doesn't English have a single verb for 'going on a pilgrimage'?)

The last time I tried to find out in how far the sola fide sola gratia concept is part of current Catholic teaching (it is a major element of the Reformation) the thread was shut down so I'm not trying to address this anymore. Ignorance is bliss, they say.

hm... lets invent one, or two:
pilgriming ?
pilgrimaging?

german is simple: "pilgern"
saluti

 

[trecile]

I appreciate what you are saying. But I have to admit that I am shrinking back into a corner trying to stay invisible. I doubt that I qualify as a true pilgrim although something about it has certainly captured my interest. I hope that, as a middle-class traveler, I do not detract from the experience of others, whatever their class or motives may be.

I'm the same as you. I'm not Catholic, or Christian, or religious in any way. I won't be asking for a Compostela because I'm not walking for religious reasons. I am walking to walk, and experience the culture, landscape and people of this part of Spain, and hopefully make some friends along the way. I have respect for everyone walking the Camino regardless of their reasons. I'm sorry if my existence on the Camino offends any "real pilgrims".

 

[Peregrinopaul]

My excitement faded as I read some of the comments on this forum about "who the real pilgrims are"

I sincerely hope that you will not let this discussion dampen your enthusiasm. I have, from time to time, had to come to terms with the fact that I am regarded by some as a second-class pilgrim because I camino on a bike. Like me, you will feel great admiration for those you meet who have walked great distances to get to Santiago. That does not diminish my own experience and effort. The distance travelled is irrelevant, except in terms of the Compostela rule, and that is not supposed to be the definition of a pilgrim. It is your motivation that will determine the personal (and frequently spiritual), benefit you gain.

 

[VNwalking]

Ages ago I read a book with the title of something like "If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him." The title came from a Buddhist saying and its meaning was essentially that one must find one's own path.

I tend to avoid these discussions but now I must chime in.
Rick, with respect, I beg to differ because that's not quite the meaning of that quote. It's much more subtle.
It's not that we have to find our own path but we have to overcome an preconceptions of what that path might be and what it might hold. So whatever idea we have of the Buddha--or 'enlightenment,' it’s only an idea. And whatever we imagine, the truth is ever other than that. So it's necessary to kill that idea and keep practicing.
The whole quote, from Zen Master Linji is this "If you meet a Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet a Ghost, kill the Ghost".
Ideas...ghosts...same.
There's a similar teaching in Taoism: “The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.”

So it's not about my path and your path, and finding our own path...but more about the experiential wisdom and compassion that arises through the walking of it.

In the larger context of the Buddhist teachings, there is definitely a place for respecting convention and skillful action. True practice is always rooted in respect for others and deeply ethical conduct, because without speaking and acting truthfully, how can we know the truth? So faux pilgrims sow their own karmic seeds--and true pilgrims sow theirs.

We know the Camino de Santiago was held sacred for hundreds of years, by millions of people -- the same people whose footsteps and hoofbeats made the trail a sacred place....we see something we honor and love being desecrated. That's why it rankles.

These bookends of Rebekah's post say a lot.
As a Buddhist, I walk the Camino as a guest, and am honored and deeply touched by the welcome I receive along the way. And I try to be a good guest, to walk with respect of this most sacred of paths--it is important to me to honor that, because the Camino is not mine.
And I'm very sorry when I see others doing otherwise--because they're taking something that is not theirs to take.

When people take what is not actually offered to them, it harms them, and it harms others.
And it's not a 'judgement' to say that's wrong. That's merely naming harm as harm.
We should not be afraid to say that.

So it's not about groups or taxis or what religion we follow (or don't)--or however we define a true pilgrim. That's not the crux of the issue.
Rebekah nailed it--it's about honesty, respect, and attitude.

 

[C clearly]

it's about honesty, respect, and attitude

I'd agree wholeheartedly with that!

 

[Maryimelda]

I think it goes deeper than people cheating on requirements to get a meaningless paper souvenir.

I think what really bothers some of us is this: We know the Camino de Santiago was held sacred for hundreds of years, by millions of people -- the same people whose footsteps and hoofbeats made the trail a sacred place.
We feel honored to join those past travelers along the trail, we marvel that we can take part in this holy journey, stripped-down to minimum possessions, passing through places where our basic needs are met for minimal costs; a social infrastructure built over years to support the pilgrims' journey of transformation. We put our own blood and sweat into the journey.

So we are upset, seeing this sacred place and holy itinerary turned into a low-budget holiday hike, or a backdrop for attention-seeking stunts. "Fellow pilgrims" are self-absorbed trend-chasers who have no clue what the camino is about and not much interest in finding out -- because being a pilgrim often means personal sacrifice, change, pain, and thinking beyond one's self, possessions, addictions, and preconceptions.

It's not the Camino to the tomb of St. James any more. It's "the journey." It's "My personal inner path." It's MY Camino, done MY way, and don't you dare offer advice or counsel or anything outside what I've decided, because that would be "judging." The Camino is no longer about a silly, idealistic community of holy travelers. It's about Me, Me, Me, getting my needs met.

And of course the marketers, hucksters, cab drivers, gurus, and hoteliers swarm like flies to this consumer honey-pot. Bunkhouse beds meant for low-income hikers are full of middle-class freeloaders. Newer, shinier, costlier bunkhouses eventually replace them. The poor are sent back into the streets to sleep.

None of us is poor -- a truly poor pilgrim doesn't post on internet forums. But when we see short-haul tourists zipping past in taxis, collecting the rewards meant for "true" pilgrims -- it violates our sense of justice.

We see something we honor and love being desecrated. That's why it rankles.

Thank you Rebekah, your summing up about the true feelings of many of us on this issue is perfect. I confess that I have never physically walked the Camino but I have travelled along it by bus and train in support of people doing it on foot who are very dear to me. I will be back in SDC on July 13 to greet a very close friend when he arrives in the square (God willing). This will be the third time that I have done this. I would give anything to be able to have the physical requisites to do it myself but as I have limited mobility I can't see that ever happening (but who knows? Where there's life there's hope!) I guess what I am trying to verbalise very poorly here is that I have an all consuming respect for the Camino and its history, so for that reason even though I have travelled along the CF twice already from SJPP to SDC mechanically, I would never even consider trying to get a compostela because to my mind, by doing so, I would be disrespecting the Camino de Santiago de Compostela. I feel honoured to have had the experience of sharing the journey with others especially those who are walking in the footsteps of the historical peregrinos of so many centuries gone by. This is what the Camino means to me so yes, Rebekah it certainly does rankle when I, like you, see this sacred journey as being just that-a sacred journey when every new year brings hordes of travellers who don't. What can be done to bring back that great respect that the Way of St James has earned since its inception? Very little I fear, sadly we have no choice other than to accept the status quo.

I hope I have made myself clear (though I doubt my ability to put into words exactly how I feel). Rebekah has expressed my feelings perfectly, so thank you again.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

No one said you have to be a Christian to walk the camino. Just be respectful, is all. Don't expect the Camino to conform to your wishes. Conform your wishes to the camino. Honor the people around you, even the scruffy ones.
If you are not utilizing the holy path for a holy reason, give way to those who are. If you are not homeless, don't take a bed in a homeless shelter.
"Judging" has become a dirty word, but good judgement is needed when you're a secular person in an overtly religious place.

 

[VNwalking]

No one said you have to be a Christian to walk the camino. Just be respectful, is all. Don't expect the Camino to conform to your wishes. Conform your wishes to the camino. Honor the people around you, even the scruffy ones.
If you are not utilizing the holy path for a holy reason, give way to those who are. If you are not homeless, don't take a bed in a homeless shelter.
"Judging" has become a dirty word, but good judgement is needed when you're a secular person in an overtly religious place.

Amen.
Rebekah, you know how to say a lot in a few words.

 

[VNwalking]

Are you saying that the Camino de Santiago is a holy place, holy space, a sacred journey, and no longer a cultural heritage route?

Can it not be both, Katharina? It's not so black and white as that, I think.
But whatever--in either case, respect and sensitivity and good judgement are necessary. And the busier it gets, the more necessary these simple virtues become.

 

[William Marques]

I think what really bothers some of us is this: We know the Camino de Santiago was held sacred for hundreds of years, by millions of people -- the same people whose footsteps and hoofbeats made the trail a sacred place. We feel honoured to join those past travellers along the trail, we marvel that we can take part in this holy journey, stripped-down to minimum possessions, passing through places where our basic needs are met for minimal costs; a social infrastructure built over years to support the pilgrims' journey of transformation. We put our own blood and sweat into the journey.

So we are upset, seeing this sacred place and holy itinerary turned into a low-budget holiday hike, or a backdrop for attention-seeking stunts. "Fellow pilgrims" are self-absorbed trend-chasers who have no clue what the camino is about and not much interest in finding out -- because being a pilgrim often means personal sacrifice, change, pain, and thinking beyond one's self, possessions, addictions, and preconceptions.

It's not the Camino to the tomb of St. James any more. It's "the journey." It's "My personal inner path." It's MY Camino, done MY way, and don't you dare offer advice or counsel or anything outside what I've decided, because that would be "judging." The Camino is no longer about a silly, idealistic community of holy travellers. It's about Me, Me, Me, getting my needs met.

And of course the marketers, hucksters, cab drivers, gurus, and hoteliers swarm like flies to this consumer honey-pot. Bunkhouse beds meant for low-income hikers are full of middle-class freeloaders. Newer, shinier, costlier bunkhouses eventually replace them. The poor are sent back into the streets to sleep.

None of us is poor -- a truly poor pilgrim doesn't post on internet forums. But when we see short-haul tourists zipping past in taxis, collecting the rewards meant for "true" pilgrims -- it violates our sense of justice.

We see something we honour and love being desecrated. That's why it rankles.

I think what bothers some of us is this:

We do not see that pilgrimage is necessarily a hair-shirted self denying experience, some may wish to undertake it in that manner but others will not.

We understand that all pilgrimage routes and destinations are "tainted" by merchants seeking to provide what pilgrims want.

We understand that in history pilgrimage was not always the "holy" experience one might wish it had been and the church, like the merchants, took advantage of this by selling indulgences.

There is no pride on the Camino; whether we walked 1000 or 100 km does not matter, whether we walked or rode a bike or horse does not matter, whether we spent more or less than another pilgrim does not matter, whether we walked in balmy sun or freezing wind and rain does not matter, whether we carried a heavier pack than the next man does not matter. What is in our hearts matters and nobody but ourselves can know what that is.

We see people trying to impose their own definition on the Camino and that rankles