This is a very Negative Post. A Vent.

[newfydog]

I used to volunteer on the ski patrol at our local resort, helping tourists with everything from lost phones to broken backs. I had to spend an hour on call in a lift house with one of the full time paid patrollers who was clearly having a similar day. She went into a rave on how these tourists have no understanding or respect for the mountain, the weather, the sport, the outdoors, etc.

I felt the lady was in the wrong job. She shouldn't expect the tourists to be up to her level, she should be helping them with the expertise she had and they obviously did not. But after reading Annie's post, maybe she was just tired and needed to vent.

So Annie, you are unquestionably a Camino expert. Are you just burned out, or is leading tours not the best job for you? Do you take joy in bringing the Camino experience to others and are you the type of teacher they might emulate? Take a deep breath, rest up and decide if you love the Camino but do or don't love leading Camino trips.

In the interest of making you smile again, I'll repost some stuff. first, for the people with heavy packs:

1. Instead of packing 8 beers for your overnight backpacking trip, just take 6. Total weight savings: 1.5 pounds.

2. At the trailhead, open your pack and remove two or three pairs of shoes from it. Leave them in the car.

3. Instead of that old kerosene lantern, try a headlamp. This can shave several ounces off your pack weight. For example, by leaving your Coleman 1 Mantle Kerosene Lantern at home and replacing it with a Petzl Tikka headlamp, you’ll decrease your total pack weight by 4 pounds, 11 ounces.

4. If you notice you have a baby with you, run back into town quick and find someone to babysit it for the weekend. Babies are heavy and become awkward to carry after several miles. Plus they require lots of extra food and gear like diapers.

5. At the trailhead, set aside all your heavy stuff and ask your friend to carry it for you. Explain that you are trying to lighten your pack.

6. Try to limit yourself to three or fewer stuffed animals.

7. Portable video game consoles are heavy. Instead of your Playstation Vita (1 pound, 10 ounces), download a few games like Angry Birds Star Wars II, 80 Days, Asphalt 8, and NBA Jam to your iPhone and hope those will get you by for the weekend or week.

8. Instead of packing separate bottles of shampoo, conditioner, mousse, gel, detangler, and hairspray, try using a stylish but lightweight hat to hide your dirty hair for the weekend.

9. Buy all new stuff. If your stuff is from last year, it’s very likely way heavier than this year’s stuff. Go into a gear store and tell them to give you all new camping stuff, and enjoy the weight savings, plus the shiny newness. If anyone gives you any shit about it, such as your spouse, tell them your old stuff was too heavy and it was giving you back pain.

10. If you have some things that are troubling you, tell them to someone on the way to your hike, or to your friend when you meet at the trailhead. Even if it’s just a convenience store attendant or bartender, it can be very cathartic to just get your problems off your chest. This will lighten your pack, if only metaphysically.

And these Complaints:

A recent survey from Thomas Cook and ABTA reveals 20 of the most ridiculous complaints by holiday-makers made to their travel agent.

1. "I think it should be explained in the brochure that the local store does not sell proper biscuits like custard creams or ginger nuts."

2. "It's lazy of the local shopkeepers to close in the afternoons. I often needed to buy things during 'siesta' time - this should be banned."

3. "On my holiday to Goa in India, I was disgusted to find that almost every restaurant served curry. I don't like spicy food at all."

4. "We booked an excursion to a water park but no-one told us we had to bring our swimming costumes and towels."

5. A tourist at a top African Game Lodge over looking a water hole, who spotted a visibly aroused elephant, complained that the sight of this rampant beast ruined his honeymoon by making him feel "inadequate".

6. A woman threatened to call police after claiming that she'd been locked in by staff. When in fact, she had mistaken the "do not disturb" sign on the back of the door as a warning to remain in the room.

7. "The beach was too sandy."

8. "We found the sand was not like the sand in the brochure.Your brochure shows the sand as yellow but it was white."

9. A guest at a Novotel in Australia complained his soup was too thick and strong. He was inadvertently slurping the gravy at the time.

10. "Topless sunbathing on the beach should be banned. The holiday was ruined as my husband spent all day looking at other women."

11. "We bought 'Ray-Ban' sunglasses for five Euros from a street trader, only to find out they were fake."

12. "No-one told us there would be fish in the sea. The children were startled."

13. "It took us nine hours to fly home from Jamaica to England it only took the Americans three hours to get home."

14. "I compared the size of our one-bedroom apartment to our friends' three-bedroom apartment and ours was significantly smaller.."

15. "The brochure stated: 'No hairdressers at the accommodation’. We’re trainee hairdressers - will we be OK staying there?"

16. "There are too many Spanish people. The receptionist speaks Spanish. The food is Spanish. Too many foreigners now live abroad."

17. "We had to queue outside with no air conditioning."

18. "It is your duty as a tour operator to advise us of noisy or unruly guests before we travel."

19. "I was bitten by a mosquito, no-one said they could bite."

20. "My fiancé and I booked a twin-bedded room but we were placed in a double-bedded room. We now hold you responsible for the fact that I find myself pregnant. This would not have happened if you had put us in the room that we booked."

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

newfydog, you are my hero!

 

[Fearless0]

Annie, I so relate to your frustration. I was very frustrated everytime I came to a mojone and saw it scribbled on, or bridge underpass with graffiti, and all the toilet paper and garbage thrown around. Who does this and for what purpose? Why can't people just leave things alone?

In another vein I also relate. I have been an Elementary School teacher (1st grade) for 25 years. I LOVED working with the kids. I recently had to retire for reasons such as you suggest. Times have changed and children and parents have gotten rude, selfish and uncontrollable. It was time for me to leave. I spent a year retired, and walked my camino. This following year I decided to go back to the school system and help out as a teachers aide because I missed working with the kids. Bad choice. I realized I'd make the right decision to retire. Our youth are out of control! Sorry, that was my rant, but it so relates to Annie's in that its a shame you have to leave something that you love so much.

 

[Anniesantiago]

[QUOTE="Susan Detlefsen, post: 452768, member: 53552"

This confirms that it is not wise to walk in guided groups. And certainly not on a Camino, where everyone could easily find her/his own way. People have expectations from a paid guide and a paid trip. Walking on your own makes you feel more responsible for yourself and your Camino. As individual walker, it's not always a pleasure to encounter groups who can have a big influence on the atmosphere. I know from experience from both sides, I was a few times part of a group (not on the Camino)and as such sometimes, without realizing it, a source of irritation for others.[/QUOTE]

Believe me, much of what I have described has been seen and experienced in solo walkers. The man who punched the other pilgrim, for instance, was not in a group. The man who I met that had booked 3 rooms that no get with no intention of cancelling the two he didn't need was solo. The ones who broke the washing machine in Santa Celia were solo. The people blabbing as they walk down a village street at 5 am were solo walkers.

For the record, my groups stay in private lodgings except in Roncesvalles, so we don't take up Albergue space.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Of the outliers, I spoke to people who took 14 and 15 hours from SJPP and 12, 13 and 15 from from Orisson.

When "walking one's own Camino", I guess a group tour in which everyone else arrives by 2 or 3pm is not appropriate for very slow walkers.

I've walked that route many, many times alone and I've never met anyone who took 14-15 hours.
Not once.
Most I have met leave SJPP around 7 am and arrive in Roncesvalles no later than 4-5 pm. Most people leaving Orisson at 8 am have no problem arriving in Roncesvalles by 3 or 4 pm.

Just out of curiosity, how many times have you walked this route?

 

[Anniesantiago]

newfydog, you are my hero!

Mine too. The post made me laugh.

Seriously, I think I'm just experiencing burnout - as are many I've spoken to along the Camino.

I think I'm going to look for someone to lead Spring's camino and take another break.
We'll see how I feel in December.

 

[Mark Lee]

I've heard that one of the most stressful times for some people is when they are planning a vacation (and yes, walking the camino is a "vacation", no matter why or how you are walking it).
As absurd as that sounds, I would bet that is true. I cannot relate with that, nor do I ever want to relate with that, but I can see some people actually stressing themselves out while planning walking the Camino, and even while they are doing it.
If I ever got that way, I would have to take a long look at life, and what is important, and also remind myself how blessed I am.

 

[C clearly]

The distinction between pilgrims and tourists is just a variation on the "traveller vs. tourist" discussion of travel styles and the unpleasantness/idiocy of a few people when they are taken out of their home comfort zones.

There is no solution as long as so many uneducated/unaware people are able to travel around the world so easily and so cheaply. [ducking my head, but it's true!]

 

[RENSHAW]

@newfydog .... Great post thanx for the effort , it made my day!
I know we digress but do indulge me in one travel funny.

Qantas Airlines had an impeccable record up to pretty recently.
Apparently they had a log where pilots noted problems for maintenance crews to sort out.
Pilot: Auto landing a little rough on this aircraft
Maintance: This model was never fitted with the Auto Landing Function.

 

[SYates]

...
Pilot: Auto landing a little rough on this aircraft
Maintance: This model was never fitted with the Auto Landing Function.

OUCH!!! SY

 

[xin loi]

Don't agree with your comments on "Solo walkers". They are the BEST! Walked the Camino twice and met lot of great Solo walkers--can NOT say the same about the Camino-Lites who travel in small herds. If they can't hump a ruck and find lodging on their own, they should go to Disneyland.

Just finished last week--27 days from SJPDP to Santiago carrying 13 kilos. Met the woman from OZ carrying 17 kilos of sandles she bought along the WAY and The Swedish woman carrying 55 kilos of dog food in her pack and in the panniers on her two dogs. Definitely not Camino-Lite people.

 

[SYates]

I really don't think that the weight in your backpack determines your degree of being a pilgrim or not. Buen Camino, SY

 

[backpack45]

You must be much more patient than I am; I would not have lasted nearly as long as you have. As more services have become available on the Camino -- shuttles for baggage and people everywhere -- more people have been able to make the trip. Unfortunately, that means, by the sheer numbers, that one will run into more people who feel a sense of entitlement. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems like an example of "unintended consequences" that as hospitaleros and guides try to provide more conveniences, they are going to get an increasing number of people who demand even more services. (In all the Camino walks (14) we have been on, I could count on one hand the number of times that washing machines were available in an albergue; I still use the washtubs or sinks that are available.) On your future trips, I hope you will be able to focus on the considerate people and the rewarding experiences because you will find a way to reduce the number of spoiled travelers that you have to deal with.

 

[Thornley]

But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Have noticed on return camino's its never the same Annie ,
however
We are venturing to Le Puy again next year
Is the french side [ GR's] better behaved ?
Is the french side by way of more expensive accommodation avoiding the ratbags , inconsiderates or first time away from home brats ?
Are the french people more protective of their villages and homes with very strict rules for all pilgrims - walkers ?
Are the GR's more difficult thus avoiding the tourists ?
Are the GR's by not having a compostela at the end attracting the RIGHT kind of pilgrim/walker ?
Because there are fewer tourist companies operating on long distances in France does their absence create a better environment?

And lastly your article in my opinion is the very reason why we tell friends to just walk their own camino.
The myth about keeping up with my camino family ........we stayed together in Orrison is just that .......a myth.....now i'm in trouble Annie

 

[domigee]

Is the french side [ GR's] better behaved ?
Is the french side by way of more expensive accommodation avoiding the ratbags , inconsiderates or first time away from home brats ?
Are the french people more protective of their villages and homes with very strict rules for all pilgrims - walkers ?

1. I wouldn't bet on it! But I'll be very interested to hear of your experience
2. Buen camino

 

[Sixwheeler]

Sorry to hear this Annie but I'm afraid that when people are too lazy to do things for themselves and pay other people they assume a nasty sense of "entitlement" and superiority as they are paying clients. Can't blame you for feeling the way you do, this is one of the main reasons I tend to walk alone. Good Luck.

 

[dougfitz]

@newfydog .... Great post thanx for the effort , it made my day!
I know we digress but do indulge me in one travel funny.

Qantas Airlines had an impeccable record up to pretty recently.
Apparently they had a log where pilots noted problems for maintenance crews to sort out.
Pilot: Auto landing a little rough on this aircraft
Maintance: This model was never fitted with the Auto Landing Function.

That's been around for a long time without ever being attributed to a particular airline. Here are some more.

 

[dougfitz]

@Anniesantiago, there is nothing that I can say that hasn't been said already by others who are also sympathetic. I just want to add my voice to the chorus, and say your 'vent' is a wake-up call for us all.

 

[Felipe]

I have always (dis)organized my Caminos myself, but in some of my tourist travel I have taken tours, especially in countries and places where doing the travel solo was difficult, or possible only with (expensive) taxis. In my intermittent experience, unruly (in different degrees) tour customers are practically a built-in part of the situation. Guides deal with them in different ways: sometimes trying to be flexible and convincing; by social pressure (recruiting other customers as enforcers -I don't like this game); or enacting penalties that inevitably punish everybody, as as in saying loudly "as X did not arrive at ....hrs as agreed, we have run out of time, so we are not visiting x place).
Having to deal with unruly customers is not an anomaly, but an integral part of the guides job description. It is as it is. Every job has its quota of nuisances. You can deal with them...or not.

 

[Kanga]

I love your thread, Annie! Of course none of us think it applies to us. Because it can only be other people who are ignorant, obnoxious, bad tempered, selfish, disrespectful, inconsiderate, demanding, childish - oh dear, does this not include us all occasionally? But generally I think most of us are well intentioned and at least try to be good.
Sadly there are always a few bad apples in every crate of humanity and anyone who offers a service to the world at large is bound to strike one sooner or later. One friend who runs a tourist park says he now factors into his finances a projection that one group out of every ten will trash the joint. If he does better than that he is ahead.

 

[Thornley]

1. I wouldn't bet on it! But I'll be very interested to hear of your experience
2. Buen camino

Have walked from Mont St Michel and four GR65's from Le Puy Domigee and yes they are more protective of their accommodation and way of village life,
And the cost [ there are few alberques ] in my opinion stops many , especially the young groups.
Thats why we return to France and commence on that side of Pyrenees ,
I was a bit tongue in cheek when asking those questions

 

[alexwalker]

Maybe you bring the wrong people, the "Touristingrinos", people who just demand, to the Camino? Just a thought. A more careful screening of your customers might be appropriate, or?...

I have more to say about this but it is night here, and I need my beauty sleep now...

 

[Thornley]

Maybe you bring the wrong people, the "Touristingrinos", people who just demand, to the Camino? Just a thought. A more careful screening of your customers might be appropriate, or?...

I have more to say about this but it is night here, and I need my beauty sleep now...

Enjoy the 24 hours nap Alex

 

[Hal]

I've walked that route many, many times alone and I've never met anyone who took 14-15 hours.
Not once.
Most I have met leave SJPP around 7 am and arrive in Roncesvalles no later than 4-5 pm. Most people leaving Orisson at 8 am have no problem arriving in Roncesvalles by 3 or 4 pm.

Just out of curiosity, how many times have you walked this route?

I am not one of the aforementioned slow-walkers, nor have I ever started in SJPP. Nor am I inventing

I met various said walkers in Leon and Melide. Most preferred to leave after 8:30am to avoid walking in the dark. They had made it up to 3km/hr by this point.

As I said, outliers.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

I SO agree. However, I love the idea of walking independently at the same time as like-minded others.

Ahhh my C Clearly! You are a breath of fresh, cold air <3

 

[Pat Beals]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open and people stuffing more clothes in. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.
And I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. I state in the handouts "This is a budget trip, not a five-star vacation." "We are not a company, we are pilgrims helping pilgrims." But I've discovered that many do not bother to read the material I send out. That assumption is based on the constant questions I get about material I covered in the hand outs.

For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino (and there HAVE been more positive experiences than negative) in past years, I'm feeling "done."

It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I do know myself.

I have learned I don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.

So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::
*****
I also need to add that I have met and led WONDERFUL people on the Camino.
Many more of those than the negative type.
Most of the people in my groups have been polite, fun-loving, respectful, spiritual, and kind PILGRIMS who I have thoroughly enjoyed. It just seems there's always that one or two in each group that tries to ruin it.

I'm grateful for the conversation this has opened up.
I will leave the post up.

Today is a better day!
Thanks all.

You're incredible vent on everything you hate is amazing. I walked the Camino last year, and yes, there were things that I struggled with. People getting up before dawn, crazy People judging me, festivals in towns way after midnight. It was all the flavor. I don't know where your anger is coming from. My suggestion to you is....keep on walking. No one cares about your anger. Work it out for yourself

 

[Anniesantiago]

You're incredible vent on everything you hate is amazing. I walked the Camino last year, and yes, there were things that I struggled with. People getting up before dawn, crazy People judging me, festivals in towns way after midnight. It was all the flavor. I don't know where your anger is coming from. My suggestion to you is....keep on walking. No one cares about your anger. Work it out for yourself

I wasn't angry.
I was sad.
Nor did I ask you to help me work it out.

It felt good to know some cared, even if you did not.
The spirit of the Camino shone through the darkness that threatened to engulf me, and I felt its warmth.

I'm grateful for that support.

 

[Thornley]

I love your thread, Annie! Of course none of us think it applies to us. Because it can only be other people who are ignorant, obnoxious, bad tempered,

Then why have i had 10 warnings Kanga

 

[windswept]

Thank you, Annie, this us why I have walked my four Caminos solo and prefer the company of animals to people.

 

[handzondeck2]

Anniesantiago thanks for sharing. I have come across many people who have acted ungraciously towards other pilgrims. Perhaps they need to be re-educated in pilgrim etiquette and the true meaning of being a pilgrim. Walking solo next year from Madrid to Oviedo then on to Santiago so I'm bound to meet a lot of these people.

 

[Thornley]

Anniesantiago thanks for sharing. I have come across many people who have acted ungraciously towards other pilgrims. Perhaps they need to be re-educated in pilgrim etiquette and the true meaning of being a pilgrim. Walking solo next year from Madrid to Oviedo then on to Santiago so I'm bound to meet a lot of these people.

I think the 2 paths you are taking will avoid the un-educated .
Except for maybe Sahagan-Leon you are in the right zone.

 

[Ernesto.IT]

IMHO, the Camino de Santiago is not designed for organized tourist groups. It's a pilgrimage, a long, spiritual walk with lots of simplicity and introspection. Trying to fit a gang of deluxe tourists into those confines is going to be pretty impossible. You've brought the Mickey Mouse Club to an ancient holy site. No wonder you're frustrated.

I completely agree with you

 

[xin loi]

I really don't think that the weight in your backpack determines your degree of being a pilgrim or not. Buen Camino, SY


Actually it does determine it to many people. Just finished ten days ago, and heard many, many, walkers complain about the Camino-lites or the "little Bag people" pretending to be pilgrims.

Might be from the movie, "The Way" but it appears most first time walkers thought that EVERYONE would hump their own ruck and walk unassisted, finding accommodations by the grace of the gods. Lot of young walkers expected more of a serious spiritual experience , not a unruly crowd of day hikers using taxis and buses whenever the going got tough.

Big packs indicated "pilgrims" in their minds; little packs indicated "tourists". And everyone was in awe of the packs the German girls carried who slept in the fields most nights, washing their clothes and themselves in the nearby streams. Met our idea of "Pilgrims"

Sign of the times--what most recalled as the symbol of the Camino---The "Good Luck" Box on the mountain prior to going down hill in to Zubiri---sign on box said that if you placed an item of underwear in the box, you would find a husband or wife along the Camino--box was full of women's underwear--which I suppose says something about the wishes of the Pilgrims.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

the German girls carried who slept in the fields most nights, washing their clothes and themselves in the nearby streams. Met our idea of "Pilgrims"

meets the legal definition (and mine) of trespassers...and depending on the soap used, bad for other living things in and around the stream.
camping doesn't make you a pilgrim. carrying an over-packed back pack doesn't make you a pilgrim. God is not checking your lodging receipts or weighing your pack. and luckily for most of us (me included) He doesn't read what we write about others on this forum.

 

[MTtoCamino]

I really don't think that the weight in your backpack determines your degree of being a pilgrim or not. Buen Camino, SY


Actually it does determine it to many people. Just finished ten days ago, and heard many, many, walkers complain about the Camino-lites or the "little Bag people" pretending to be pilgrims.

Might be from the movie, "The Way" but it appears most first time walkers thought that EVERYONE would hump their own ruck and walk unassisted, finding accommodations by the grace of the gods. Lot of young walkers expected more of a serious spiritual experience , not a unruly crowd of day hikers using taxis and buses whenever the going got tough.

Big packs indicated "pilgrims" in their minds; little packs indicated "tourists". And everyone was in awe of the packs the German girls carried who slept in the fields most nights, washing their clothes and themselves in the nearby streams. Met our idea of "Pilgrims"

Sign of the times--what most recalled as the symbol of the Camino---The "Good Luck" Box on the mountain prior to going down hill in to Zubiri---sign on box said that if you placed an item of underwear in the box, you would find a husband or wife along the Camino--box was full of women's underwear--which I suppose says something about the wishes of the Pilgrims.

The box of underware is a new one on me, amazing the things people come up with! You sure it wasn't a refuse or donatin box full of Tracked undies??

 

[SYates]

The box of underware is a new one on me, amazing the things people come up with! You sure it wasn't a refuse or donatin box full of Tracked undies??

I saw that one the first time in 2014, my suspicion is that it was invented by the guy that runs the refreshment van. And no, it wasn't a leftover box, it was a rather tasteless "find a 'partner'" box. Buen Camino, SY

 

[MTtoCamino]

I saw that one the first time in 2014, my suspicion is that it was invented by the guy that runs the refreshment van. And no, it wasn't a leftover box, it was a rather tasteless "find a 'partner'" box. Buen Camino, SY

Yes, probably started out as trash & more than likely a male with a perminent marker. I would even venture to say the garments were cotton & chaffing related.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Please. Let's not mention the underwear box and underwear again. It will not lead us to a good place.

 

[Mark Lee]

I think some might be missing the point...it is not that groups are bad, it is about bad behavior. Frankly, I saw more bad behavior displayed by solo walkers, or walkers who had formed their own groups...not by organized tour members. Clearly, bad solo walkers exist as others above have posted about intervening with them. It is natural for us to put blame onto a group that does not include us, leaving us blameless. When we do this, nothing changes. Step one: examine your own behavior carefully, adjust as necessary. Step two: see how you can help others with their behaviors (as in translating example above, helping/thanking the hospitaleros, encouraging respect for the host nation, model good behavior) step three: repeat. I hope no one considering a tour (for whatever reason, we don't get to decide for them) gives up on a pilgrimage because some walkers don't want to share the road.

Yeah, agreed.
Pretty much most of the rude behavior I saw on the CF was from younger "party-grinos". Alcohol was involved, and the behavior was nothing harmful, just rude. Poor judgement enhanced by fermented spirits. Not judging. I imagine most of us who didn't spend our youth cloistered have done similar. Or I least I hope everyone has. No use doing a stretch on this earth without having done a few crazy things when younger....
Still, not amusing to observe after getting older and sharing communal space with those acting drunk and silly, and I can understand why.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

I started the morning out in a negative state of mind and it took much of the day to work through it. I'm trying to practice being positive and today, well, it just wasn't in me until evening.

My granddaughter is here now and I'm remembering just how much I have to be grateful for.

Thanks to all of you for your kindness and support. And thanks to those who gave me the swift kick I needed.

I love this forum, it's members, and I love the Camino.
Whether or not I'll continue with groups is something I need to ponder.
It's important to me to live life joyfully

Life is much too short to be grouchy.

Put me down as a charter member of the Anniesantiago fan club.

Annie made it possible for me to rise above my risk-avoiding personality and walk the Camino in 2012. And it was the experience of a lifetime! I will forever be in her debt. Like CaminoDebrita I'm now a peregrino for life.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Thanks Father. I'm your fan too! Now if I could just have a group of 'you' clones, I might do it one more time.

Put me down as a charter member of the Anniesantiago fan club.

Annie made it possible for me to rise above my risk-avoiding personality and walk the Camino in 2012. And it was the experience of a lifetime! I will forever be in her debt. Like CaminoDebrita I'm now a peregrino for life.

s

 

[alexwalker]

@Anniesantiago Your frustration and rant is highly in place, fellow pilgrim.

I have noticed more rude and disappointing behaviour on the Camino lately (2-3 years), yes.

I walked a couple of days to and from with an old, very nice, couple from USA this September. The woman developed big troblems with her back on the way.

I passed them a few kms before Carrion de los Condes and it had worsened badly for her. I walked fast by them into Carrion, for checking in at the Espiritu Santo albergue (I always "sleep with the nuns" there), with the intention to do a quick check-in and return to help her/them.

As I was standing in the line, with 3 young American women in front of me for a bed, a middle aged man turned up and accused me of having taken his place in the line. He insisted on getting in line ahead of me, and confronted me with "Do you have a problem with that?" showing me his fists. Right: I am a retired soon 63 years old, and I do not fight, at least not where beds are in an abundance...

I tried to tell him that I needed to check in as fast as possible, as I had to return to the camino, helping the old lady, a fellow countrywomen of his. He pretended to not listen.

Then he and the three young women spent 30 mins chatting with the nuns while I was waiting for my turn, with no regard for the old woman. He was more interested in impressing the 3 young ladies (also Americans) he had bonded with, than letting me check in so I could help the old woman. When I finally had gotten my bed (number 44 of 120, so no bed rush at all..) the old couple were coming into the monastery courtyard, quite broken, so no need for me to walk out to assist...

In hindsight, I should of course just have taken her pack on my chest and walked together with them into Carrion.

In the evening, he was dominating the town square cafe with his drinking, high noise jokes et all, in order to impress the young women... Luckily, I had a very long day's walk the next day, and never saw him again.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

Oh @Anniesantiago! So sorry that you have had such horrid, energy and soul exhausting experiences but so glad that you were able to vent safely on the Forum. That's what your compañeros here on our virtual albergue provide - for everyone - a safe place to fall.

I'm late to this thread (been a bit busy with the weather!) so it has made interesting and sobering reading... and in one of those synchronous moments, last night I came across a reference to this passage in a Science Fiction book that I would never have read otherwise:

But the world moves on, even when you don’t want it to, even when change feels like the end of everything. It never stops. That’s harsh and magical and somewhat comforting because nothing is immutable, however much we want it to be. Moments cannot be caught like fossils in amber, ever-perfect, ever-beautiful. They go dark and raw, full of shadows, leaving you with the memories. And the world moves on.
Ann Aguirre: Aftermath

I totally agree with everything that has been posted on this thread and, over the years, have experienced firsthand many wondrous, magical and spiritual places across the world consumed by the tourist tsunami. It hurts in so many ways at a very personal level and I deeply wish it were otherwise. Perhaps I am just falling to the vagaries of age and longing for what will not be again.

Popular culture has always drawn on religious and spiritual themes and the Camino, in particular the Francés, has become the latest in a long, long listing of such collateral damage. I see it more as indicative of ongoing social change and hope that it will eventually find its equilibrium and regain the awe and respect that is its due. One thing is certain, The Camino will survive us all!

In the meantime we can showcase this Way by our own example, walking gracefully and graciously so that no matter what happens, we can bear fair witness to a watching world.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

I don't know where your anger is coming from. My suggestion to you is....keep on walking. No one cares about your anger. Work it out for yourself

Hi @Pat Beals, Just wanted to say that I care about Anniesantiago's anger. I assume from your comments either that you did not read her OP in total and/or you are not aware of the length of time she has been a member of this forum, and of all the very helpful posts she has provided, for which she is held in our affections. As you will see from many other responses, Anniesantiago has helped 'new' pilgrims to build their confidence sufficiently to undertake walking the Camino despite their original trepidations. I have not been a member of the forum for nearly so long, but I value the contributions of the virtual 'friends' on the site and, on the rare occasions when someone posts that they are feeling low about something Camino-related, then others will make sure they receive the virtual hug they need, and when a member has seemingly got to the end of their tether about a problem, and wants to vent and share it with others to help them regain a perspective on the matter, then it seems only appropriate that as pilgrims past, present and future, we respond empathatically.

 

[Stefystar]

Yeah... you may be right. . . it CAN be like the Mickey Mouse Club, depending on the people in the group. I have had WONDERFUL groups of PILGRIMS, as well, and probably more of those than the others. Unfortunately, it is "the others" who leave the bad taste in one's mouth.

And I'm editing this post because you are SO right, but what can be done about it?
It is now a tourist destination, and some of that is the fault of people like me.
I long for a simpler Camino with fewer people who are grateful for what they get.

It was interesting serving at San Anton, Rebecca, because THOSE were the types of pilgrims we met. I would give them the spiel, " We have no hot water, (they'd nod), no heat (they'd nod), and no internet (they'd run out the gate!)" The ones who stayed longed for a quiet, simple rest. They were the ones meant for San Anton, and all appreciated its beauty and simplicity. It was a sweet sweet experience.

I think I need to go on pilgrimage to do penance for all these sinful feelings about others.
Or maybe I'll just go eat a bowl of ice cream and buy a paint gun.

Hi Anniesantiago,
It is always good to take it out of your system in a safe place like the forum...
Your camino spirit and personal experience, brought you to want to pass it on to others. It is commendable that you put yourself in the predicament ,as it has, to cope with this type of people.
Being honest, if anyone asks me , all others would hear is how wonderful my camino has been . I could not put into words how,to mention one, at the end, in Santiago, having lost my way to the obradorio, I asked God " please God no more walking". I had reached my goal, but still not there yet....every step were so hard to take ,but I had to complete it. The tiredness disappeared as I reached the cathedral...

I am sure there are hundreds of stories we could tell of efforts and pushing to the limit that only a purpose can fulfill and make it worthwhile.
Are we guilty not to open up on how difficult it may be, or the degree of adaptability it requires?
Maybe the camino journey is, whatever you want it to be,
But organising a group comes with the price of encountering the ones you have. I agree on a brief questionnaire to find out more their motivation and weed out the oddballs that can be dragged in to walk. Maybe inspire then in writing their journal, as breaking a washing machine would not be good reading,isn't it?
Still how people react in different situation , is unpredictable..
I wish you the best of luck with your future groups, and maybe same camino time for yourself too..

 

[Anniesantiago]

Thank you all, again, for your support. I'm feeling much better. I'm pet sitting for my son in Salt Lake City, giving me the opportunity to visit another wondrous place of worship and work on some genealogy. And with a three month old kitten wanting to sleep on my head each night it's hard to be grouchy.

Joe sent his blog post this morning about a sweet encounter he had with a first time pilgrim and I thought it was worth sharing.
......

At the sumptuous breakfast offered at the seminary of San Martin Pinario I joined another pilgrim for the buffet. Empanada, tortilla, tomatoes, tostada, bread, cheeses, meat, cereal, yogurt, fruit salad, milk, tea, coffee and juice are all there for the taking.
It is easy to linger there and sample as many of the delights as hunger demands. Later in the day outside in the plazas surrounding the Cathedral the queues are just beginning to form for entry into the much photographed house of worship.

Because of the numbers of visitors the free access of years past has been discontinued and there is entry thru the door facing the Plaza Platerias, exit thru the door of the Plaza Immaculada and a third entry from the Plaza Quintana to visit the crypt and embrace the sculpture of the Saint. All are guarded by friendly security personnel, yet the feeling of being herded into and out the Cathedral cannot be denied. Fortunately, one is still allowed to graze at will once inside.

At breakfast I asked the pilgrim if they had made their visit to the Cathedral and if it had been everything they had hoped to experience after so many walking miles of trial and joy. Here is the reply in the pilgrim's own words.

"I arrived the day before and was to tired to stand in the long lines I found there. Others in the group I had walked with were stronger and first made their way to the pilgrim office where the lines for compostellas were even longer. Later they would also queue with the many others at the Cathedral.

I was only able to afford the journey after saving credit card miles for 5 years to buy airfare, and my budget for food and lodging was very tight. I found a pilgrimage website that provided reserved lodging and some local transportation which I could afford. There was also assistance on the trail from a volunteer leader.

Others in the group were experienced travelers and much of the discussion was about comparing the Camino with the places all over the world they had toured. This was my first trip abroad and I had nothing to offer to these conversations but I enjoyed listening to a point.

Because of my inexperience I was, perhaps naively, overwhelmed by the simplest of things along the Way. I spent nearly half an hour once just admiring the deep red soil of a freshly ploughed field. I watched hawks circling the royal blue sky and so I often arrived last at our lodgings and missed group meals because I had laundry to do which I did by hand since I could not afford the cost of the machines.

My second morning in Santiago I decided to make my visit to the Cathedral at dawn before coffee or breakfast when there were no people to queue with and you could enter thru any of the many doors. I wanted to go there with the heightened awareness that an empty stomach brings. When one begins the journey to Santiago one never knows for certain if they will make it there, nor if they will ever return again.

First I wanted to embrace the likeness of St. James perched above the high altar since I had been told it was traditional. It was a fine feeling to hold the cool shoulders of the sculpture and rest my head for a moment at the nape of his neck. Since there was no one behind me, I could linger as long as I wanted without causing any inconvenience to another.

Next I walked the worn stone stairs down to the crypt of the Saint. There were two other pilgrims standing again the stone wall that faces the silver tomb holding the remains. A sparkling silver star floats above the small reliquary.

I was surprised to see three priests in red chasubles offering a mass in English there in the tight quarters of the inner crypt. They were making the offertory and I decided to stay for at least the consecration. Three of us pilgrims hugged the stone wall so the occasional others could come and go as they pleased. After the consecration we three joined the priests in exchanging the sign of peace. Then we were happy when the celebrant came to the iron gate separating us from the inner crypt, and offered us the Body of Christ.

After this Mass, I walked around the many chapels where 3 other Masses in Spanish, French and German were being offered. There were only small groups of pilgrims in each chapel and no botofumeiro, but I would not trade my quiet and lonely experience with the two other early risers for the crowded grandeur of the Noon High Mass.

If someone would ask me now, when is the best time of day to visit the Cathedral of Santiago, I would say early in the morning when you are hungry and have the compulsion to lay aside one appetite for another more profound. But my opinion should not influence another since wonder and spirit can be found everywhere at any time. A person should go, when they feel the desire to do so. As they say, there are as many Caminos as there are people who travel it."

Well, Annie and I have heard many marvelous tales of the things to find along the Way, that the "Camino provides". And yes the Camino provides both opportunity and challenge, but we remember mainly the opportunities and give short shrift to the sore feet and shared bathrooms that sometimes constitute the challenges. After this one pilgrim's story of the Mass with The Saint, I wondered what challenges they must have met over the many miles walking. But their tale of the spell of simple glory prevented me from asking. I had no more questions to ask or answer.

.....

To me, the pilgrim Joe met had the type of Camino I feel many of us long to return to; one of meaningful simplicity.

 

[David]

Annie - such a Brilliant!! post - good for you - vent away!

Some decades ago I was with a company that put on large scale charity fund raising bike rides from Lands End to John o Groats. We took marquees, carried their tents and bags, had a catering crew, musicians, nurse, etc. It was always top fun and the cyclists put up with bad weather and all sorts of problems cheerfully. Then we decided to try a commercial one where they didn't need to raise a certain amount for the chosen charity but would just pay to do the journey. It was a nightmare!! The attitude was completely different - so much moaning and abusive behaviour - we found that once you take their money they feel that they own you and can also do whatever they want - or it draws a different type of person perhaps. (not everyone of course, just a few).
So, Annie, it goes with your territory I think. On the other hand, were you to choose a charity and make it that they have to be sponsored for a certain amount and then get a % of that amount raised back from the charity for putting on the event (they still pay for their own travel) - then I think that you would find them all lovely.

As for "what is happening on the Camino?" "Hasn't it changed, for the worse" and so on that has been appearing quite a lot on the forum recently.... I have been struggling with this for some time. It is ten years now that I have been doing first aid on Camino and I get weary - no, not weary really, but rather .. I don't know .. there seems to be more wealth, more demand, more 'tourist walking' rather than pilgrimage ... but am I right?

Is it only that it is now more busy allied with that I have been doing it for so many years? Am I tired of it? Less committed? I went over in spring and only stayed a very short while as I didn't like it, didn't like offering free first aid to pilgrims dressed and accessorised with an outlay that would keep an African family happily well fed for three years .... so I went home.
After a while that feeling faded away and I went back August/Sept and it felt better but ... I'm not quite sure what it is ... I may be wrong but there seems to be less 'openness' in many of the people I meet.

This is balanced, of course it is, by the wonderful pilgrims I do still meet. And I try to remind myself that Lotus flowers grow out of pools of slimy mud. The beauty is still there (the beauty that radiates out from people) ,, it is still the Camino ... pilgrims still go because they are heart broken and are healed .... it is still the Camino to St James in Santiago, and in that sense, I think, All is Well.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I understand perfectly that feeling you are trying to describe, David. It's like you've got a nagging feeling you have lost something but can't quite figure out what it is or if you're even allowed to miss it.

 

[jbear]

Annie - such a Brilliant!! post - good for you - vent away!

Some decades ago I was with a company that put on large scale charity fund raising bike rides from Lands End to John o Groats. We took marquees, carried their tents and bags, had a catering crew, musicians, nurse, etc. It was always top fun and the cyclists put up with bad weather and all sorts of problems cheerfully. Then we decided to try a commercial one where they didn't need to raise a certain amount for the chosen charity but would just pay to do the journey. It was a nightmare!! The attitude was completely different - so much moaning and abusive behaviour - we found that once you take their money they feel that they own you and can also do whatever they want - or it draws a different type of person perhaps. (not everyone of course, just a few).
So, Annie, it goes with your territory I think. On the other hand, were you to choose a charity and make it that they have to be sponsored for a certain amount and then get a % of that amount raised back from the charity for putting on the event (they still pay for their own travel) - then I think that you would find them all lovely.

As for "what is happening on the Camino?" "Hasn't it changed, for the worse" and so on that has been appearing quite a lot on the forum recently.... I have been struggling with this for some time. It is ten years now that I have been doing first aid on Camino and I get weary - no, not weary really, but rather .. I don't know .. there seems to be more wealth, more demand, more 'tourist walking' rather than pilgrimage ... but am I right?

Is it only that it is now more busy allied with that I have been doing it for so many years? Am I tired of it? Less committed? I went over in spring and only stayed a very short while as I didn't like it, didn't like offering free first aid to pilgrims dressed and accessorised with an outlay that would keep an African family happily well fed for three years .... so I went home.
After a while that feeling faded away and I went back August/Sept and it felt better but ... I'm not quite sure what it is ... I may be wrong but there seems to be less 'openness' in many of the people I meet.

This is balanced, of course it is, by the wonderful pilgrims I do still meet. And I try to remind myself that Lotus flowers grow out of pools of slimy mud. The beauty is still there (the beauty that radiates out from people) ,, it is still the Camino ... pilgrims still go because they are heart broken and are healed .... it is still the Camino to St James in Santiago, and in that sense, I think, All is Well.

David- this is an important post. Something we all should consider. We must all be careful not to ruin what we love. I don't really have anything to add, but for some reason your post hit home for me.

 

[Orford girl]

Oh I understand your frustration. Last year in a BnB before the camino, my friend forced a washing machine door open and broke it. She did pay for the owner to repair it. I was mortified. Please everyone, if you don't know how anything works, ASK. Being a trip leader for many years, it is always amazing to me how much people DONT read the important stuff. Good for you getting it off your chest. Now smile and go forward. There are many kind, considerate, good people out there enjoying the caminos. I can not tell how many good people I've met. Buen camino.

 

[lovingkindness]

Hey, Annie friend... perhaps it's time for a little solitude or one-on-one hiking with a teen. Seuil are looking for Camino companions. With all that experience what a great granny-accompagnant you'd be.

http://assoseuil.org/

cheers

 

[lovingkindness]

.... And I try to remind myself that Lotus flowers grow out of pools of slimy mud....

...I like that...

 

[newfydog]

The fact that someone is more tourist than pilgrim doesn't excuse bad behaviour. I suppose my wife and i are in that category, with no religious motivation and a preferrence for upscale accommodation, but that does not excuse not respecting the others, the locals, and the washing machines!

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Hola Annie

I've organised Caminos for people in the past and in fact I'm helping the Camino Chaplaincy launch a couple of special group Caminos next year - more of that soon. To be honest personally I don't like walking with organised groups - particularly if I'm the organiser. It often feels more like being a firefighter than a pilgrim!

In saying that organised groups where accommodation is booked in advance and the group is accompanied perhaps with luggage taken forward makes the prospect of walking a Camino much less daunting for many people and therefore makes it more accessible.

Although I do what I do as a volunteer I recognise that many of the guided tour companies have been started by pilgrims, some on this forum, who see it as a way to be of service to others as well as perhaps sustaining themselves or their own Caminos financially. In the same way as Rebekah has written her forthright
"So you want to own an albergue?" advice for others - could you describe for us your own hints and tips, advice and warnings to people thinking of running organised groups on the Camino? I'm also sure there were many joys among the problems!

best regards

John

 

[David]

This breaking of washing machines by pilgrims isn't a new thing. Renoir painted such a scene on returning from Camino in 1863.

 

[SabsP]

This breaking of washing machines by pilgrims isn't a new thing. Renoir painted such a scene on returning from Camino in 1863.

View attachment 29567

Ah trust good old Auguste...

 

[Bala]

Thank you all, again, for your support. I'm feeling much better. I'm pet sitting for my son in Salt Lake City, giving me the opportunity to visit another wondrous place of worship and work on some genealogy. And with a three month old kitten wanting to sleep on my head each night it's hard to be grouchy.

Joe sent his blog post this morning about a sweet encounter he had with a first time pilgrim and I thought it was worth sharing.
......

At the sumptuous breakfast offered at the seminary of San Martin Pinario I joined another pilgrim for the buffet. Empanada, tortilla, tomatoes, tostada, bread, cheeses, meat, cereal, yogurt, fruit salad, milk, tea, coffee and juice are all there for the taking.
It is easy to linger there and sample as many of the delights as hunger demands. Later in the day outside in the plazas surrounding the Cathedral the queues are just beginning to form for entry into the much photographed house of worship.

Because of the numbers of visitors the free access of years past has been discontinued and there is entry thru the door facing the Plaza Platerias, exit thru the door of the Plaza Immaculada and a third entry from the Plaza Quintana to visit the crypt and embrace the sculpture of the Saint. All are guarded by friendly security personnel, yet the feeling of being herded into and out the Cathedral cannot be denied. Fortunately, one is still allowed to graze at will once inside.

At breakfast I asked the pilgrim if they had made their visit to the Cathedral and if it had been everything they had hoped to experience after so many walking miles of trial and joy. Here is the reply in the pilgrim's own words.

"I arrived the day before and was to tired to stand in the long lines I found there. Others in the group I had walked with were stronger and first made their way to the pilgrim office where the lines for compostellas were even longer. Later they would also queue with the many others at the Cathedral.

I was only able to afford the journey after saving credit card miles for 5 years to buy airfare, and my budget for food and lodging was very tight. I found a pilgrimage website that provided reserved lodging and some local transportation which I could afford. There was also assistance on the trail from a volunteer leader.

Others in the group were experienced travelers and much of the discussion was about comparing the Camino with the places all over the world they had toured. This was my first trip abroad and I had nothing to offer to these conversations but I enjoyed listening to a point.

Because of my inexperience I was, perhaps naively, overwhelmed by the simplest of things along the Way. I spent nearly half an hour once just admiring the deep red soil of a freshly ploughed field. I watched hawks circling the royal blue sky and so I often arrived last at our lodgings and missed group meals because I had laundry to do which I did by hand since I could not afford the cost of the machines.

My second morning in Santiago I decided to make my visit to the Cathedral at dawn before coffee or breakfast when there were no people to queue with and you could enter thru any of the many doors. I wanted to go there with the heightened awareness that an empty stomach brings. When one begins the journey to Santiago one never knows for certain if they will make it there, nor if they will ever return again.

First I wanted to embrace the likeness of St. James perched above the high altar since I had been told it was traditional. It was a fine feeling to hold the cool shoulders of the sculpture and rest my head for a moment at the nape of his neck. Since there was no one behind me, I could linger as long as I wanted without causing any inconvenience to another.

Next I walked the worn stone stairs down to the crypt of the Saint. There were two other pilgrims standing again the stone wall that faces the silver tomb holding the remains. A sparkling silver star floats above the small reliquary.

I was surprised to see three priests in red chasubles offering a mass in English there in the tight quarters of the inner crypt. They were making the offertory and I decided to stay for at least the consecration. Three of us pilgrims hugged the stone wall so the occasional others could come and go as they pleased. After the consecration we three joined the priests in exchanging the sign of peace. Then we were happy when the celebrant came to the iron gate separating us from the inner crypt, and offered us the Body of Christ.

After this Mass, I walked around the many chapels where 3 other Masses in Spanish, French and German were being offered. There were only small groups of pilgrims in each chapel and no botofumeiro, but I would not trade my quiet and lonely experience with the two other early risers for the crowded grandeur of the Noon High Mass.

If someone would ask me now, when is the best time of day to visit the Cathedral of Santiago, I would say early in the morning when you are hungry and have the compulsion to lay aside one appetite for another more profound. But my opinion should not influence another since wonder and spirit can be found everywhere at any time. A person should go, when they feel the desire to do so. As they say, there are as many Caminos as there are people who travel it."

Well, Annie and I have heard many marvelous tales of the things to find along the Way, that the "Camino provides". And yes the Camino provides both opportunity and challenge, but we remember mainly the opportunities and give short shrift to the sore feet and shared bathrooms that sometimes constitute the challenges. After this one pilgrim's story of the Mass with The Saint, I wondered what challenges they must have met over the many miles walking. But their tale of the spell of simple glory prevented me from asking. I had no more questions to ask or answer.

.....

To me, the pilgrim Joe met had the type of Camino I feel many of us long to return to; one of meaningful simplicity.

Thank you for posting this beautiful, poignant reflection, Anniesantiago. This pilgrim expresses so much of what to me matters in a pilgrimage, whether it be to Santiago or some simple, sacred place near home. Although this pilgrim was not one you accompanied, I feel certain, from reading your many posts over the past couple of years, that you have enabled many others to have similar experiences that might not have been possible without your support and guidance. Whatever your future holds, may your memories of them always be cherished.

 

[SYates]

This breaking of washing machines by pilgrims isn't a new thing. Renoir painted such a scene on returning from Camino in 1863.

View attachment 29567

You.Owe.Me.Another.Keyboard! AGAIN!! This one just died of having vino blanco all laughed over it ... SY

 

[SYates]

... and in fact I'm helping the Camino Chaplaincy launch a couple of special group Caminos next year - more of that soon. ...

Pricking up ears there! St.Christophers Fund? SY

 

[gerardcarey]

I've always found the best way to break the ice when staying in a third world village is to climb into the stream with the locals gals and do the bang slap washing thing on the rocks.
When I advise them that in the west men are expected to help with such chores about the house they are amazed and delighted, especially when I detail lurid punishments detailed to those men who don't contribute to the efficient running of the household.
I've wanted to have a go in one of those old communal washing areas often found in Spanish villages but haven't got around to it.
Gotta get one of those 'Round Toits'.
Regards
Gerard

 

[domigee]

I've wanted to have a go in one of those old communal washing areas often found in Spanish villages but haven't got around to it.
Gerard

Lol! I have never found one that was still in use, have you???

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

When I advise them that in the west men are expected to help with such chores about the house they are amazed and delighted, especially when I detail lurid punishments detailed to those men who don't contribute to the efficient running of the household.

When I was in Iraq the Iraqi pilots would often comment that American women seemed so educated and strong, so it amazed them that we would put up with working full time and raising children--both were considered full time work and their women would choose to do one or the other but woe to the man who expected them to do both. They would shake their heads and say "American women must be SO tired"

 

[Kanga]

@gerardcarey I think it is many years since women in Spain gathered together to wash clothes on the rocks - the last time I saw it was in the 1970s. I miss the donkey carts and horses ploughing the fields too. Our striving for ease always seems to have negative side effects - the social aspects of communal clothes washing, the tactile and emotional bonds with an animal instead of a car, the benefits of exercise instead of sloth - and so too on the Camino. Ubiquitous luggage transfer services and luxury booked accommodation, organised tours, brings many benefits, but also negative side effects.
I like to think of events in cosmic terms - spacetime. We humans can never re-visit a time and place but that intersection will always exist in spacetime. That gives me comfort.

 

[VNwalking]

@Anniesantiago, thank you.
I'm very glad you decided to keep your heartfelt post up there for us late-comers to see.
I have little to add to your heartfelt rant and to the many wonderful replies here, except to affirm your weariness over the behavior of entitled brats; it's completely understandable. As is your sadness about how things have changed.

Fortunately the Camino will outlive all of us, and at some point it's bound to become less popular with the trendy travel crowd who only want a cheap vacation or bragging rights. Until then...the question is how to learn patience and skillful means to confront (but not inflame) whatever idiocy we encounter. Inside and out, as @Kanga points out...

Very practically, I like the screening ideas that a few others have posted here. We do this for meditation retreats--so why not for your groups walking the Camino? A pre-registration form with a few well placed questions as to intentions for the walk would be one way you could screen out the chair-bangers, whingers, and small children in adult bodies.

And hopefully you can find a way soon to walk a quiet route, on your own, to recharge your camino batteries, and your heart....
Buen camino and ultreia!

 

[David]

One can look at their Facebook pages ?

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

amazingly, some of us refuse to join Facebook.

 

[Anniesantiago]

amazingly, some of us refuse to join Facebook.

I wish I was that smart. Joe refuses. I'm an addict.

 

[David]

New pilgrim washing machines being introduced next year

 

[bunnymac]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.

I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. I state in the handouts "This is a budget trip, not a five-star vacation." "We are not a company, we are pilgrims helping pilgrims." But I've discovered that many do not bother to read the material I send out. That assumption is based on the constant questions I get about material I covered in the hand outs.

For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino (and there HAVE been more positive experiences than negative) in past years, I'm feeling "done."

It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I do know myself.

I have learned I don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.

So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::
*****
I also need to add that I have met and led WONDERFUL people on the Camino.
Many more of those than the negative type.
Most of the people in my groups have been polite, fun-loving, respectful, spiritual, and kind PILGRIMS who I have thoroughly enjoyed. It just seems there's always that one or two in each group that tries to ruin it.

I'm grateful for the conversation this has opened up.
I will leave the post up.

Today is a better day!
Thanks all.

Have you read The Mosquito Coast (Paul Theroux)?

 

[Anniesantiago]

Have you read The Mosquito Coast (Paul Theroux)?

Nope. Should I?

 

[bunnymac]

Maybe. One of its many themes is the idea that to exist counter-culturally, the main protagonist has to introduce elements of the mainstream. Then he and his family have to deal with the consequences of that introduction.

 

[David]

Maybe. One of its many themes is the idea that to exist counter-culturally, the main protagonist has to introduce elements of the mainstream. Then he and his family have to deal with the consequences of that introduction.

I have absolutely no idea what that means!

 

[MTtoCamino]

I do hope all that are planning a pilgrimage read this thread. It should be required reading for any planning a walk.

 

[Hiawatha]

Do you want ice blocks with that Bunnymac

 

[Anniesantiago]

In the same way as Rebekah has written her forthright
"So you want to own an albergue?" advice for others - could you describe for us your own hints and tips, advice and warnings to people thinking of running organised groups on the Camino? I'm also sure there were many joys among the problems!

best regards

John

Hi John,
I will do this once I settle in. Right now I have my 83 year old mother with me in the desert and am spending quality time with her. I'm also contemplating what I will do this season - whether or not I will take a group this year, or if I'll look for another person to take my group, or if I might be able to sell or pass what I've created to an interested party to take over, someone fresh and with plenty of patience and a new perspective. Once mom is back home (about 2 weeks) I will revisit this thread and describe hints, tips, advice, and warnings

 

[Bradypus]

@gerardcarey I think it is many years since women in Spain gathered together to wash clothes on the rocks - the last time I saw it was in the 1970s. I miss the donkey carts and horses ploughing the fields too.

On my first Camino Frances in 1990 I passed by a number of communal lavaderos which were still in use. At one the ladies at work offered to wash my clothes for me - still not sure whether that was just a joke, a generous gesture, or a gentle dig at my dishevelled state. Much laughter at the time I also saw one small field in Galicia being ploughed with a pair of oxen. A very medieval scene. I got some funny looks from bypassers last October when I stopped to use the very prettily restored lavadero just west of Melide for its original purpose.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

On my first Camino Frances in 1990 ... I also saw one small field in Galicia being ploughed with a pair of oxen. A very medieval scene.

Still seen on the Primitivo in 2015. Such a contrast with life in large western cities.

 

[Dinkumdigger]

Still seen on the Primitivo in 2015. Such a contrast with life in large western cities.

Spoke with a farmer and his wife,who were ploughing with two hefty cows,in Portela de Valcarce on CF,April 2015.The cows were named Rubio y Marquesa.

 

[movinmaggie]

Annie I've so enjoyed your posts for the time I've been on the forum, but I must say, I often wondered 'why' you do these tours. I realize it's a paid service you provide. so yes, folks will make demands and having been in the hotel business for years, it's fair to expect that over a given period of time, there will be burnout. I know it's a personal question so am not looking for an answer. I just wanted to support your idea of taking a respite, then revisit the idea 'down the road'.

 

[kaixo]

I missed this post in October, I'm glad it's been resurrected, lots of great stories, opinions, and insight.
@Anniesantiago I have enjoyed and benefited from your posts over the years. So now that we are in the New Year, have you made any decisions?

 

[Anniesantiago]

I missed this post in October, I'm glad it's been resurrected, lots of great stories, opinions, and insight.
@Anniesantiago I have enjoyed and benefited from your posts over the years. So now that we are in the New Year, have you made any decisions?

Well, first, it's good I decided not to walk this season. My mother had a heart attack last month and is having angiogram and stents next week. I'm thinking I should probably stick close to home this season, although it will depend on how she does.

I have cancelled the "regular" walks for 2017. However, I do have a group of 5 who may book a private trip and perhaps we would take on an extra couple to fill things out.
I'm feeling more positive.
Haven't yet found affordable liability insurance that will cover me in Spain. That is still a concern.
Still munching on my options.

What I would REALLY like to do is walk alone one season, the entire Camino again.
But on a Disability income, that's probably not going to happen.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Annie I've so enjoyed your posts for the time I've been on the forum, but I must say, I often wondered 'why' you do these tours. I realize it's a paid service you provide. so yes, folks will make demands and having been in the hotel business for years, it's fair to expect that over a given period of time, there will be burnout. I know it's a personal question so am not looking for an answer. I just wanted to support your idea of taking a respite, then revisit the idea 'down the road'.

Hi Maggie. The reason "why" was originally so I could afford to do the long distance walking, which was prescribed by my specialist for Multiple Chemical Sensitivities.
There's no way I can afford to do it on $900 a month disability income.
Taking a group and splitting my own costs between them makes it affordable for them and me.

I also love the idea of helping people make this trip who are anxious or afraid to go alone.
So it's a mix of doing something for myself while doing something for others.

 

[David]

Hey, Annie - 900 dollars a month is just about equal to our full pension payment in the UK. Do without a car and cook real food (rather than buying so called food in cardboard boxes) and it is plenty to live on.
You need to get over here and marry a Brit - then you would also get rent paid for by the State, plus council tax, plus free opticians, plus free dental, plus free medical care - no limit, plus a free bus pass - you so need to fall in love with a Brit!!

 

[rappahannock_rev]

This non-risk taker walked with Anniesantiago on his first Camino, waaaaay back in 2012. It was a life enhancing, faith enhancing, experience. Thank you Annie!

I guess I'm what you might call 'a satisfied customer'. But 'customer' is an entirely inadequate word, in this context. And to describe me and my 2012 fellow walkers as "a gang of deluxe tourists" is inaccurate and completely unfair - to put it politely. That is not what Anniesantiago's organized group walks are about....

I've been back twice since then, (w/0 Anniesantiago, if you must know), and I will continue to go to Spain as frequently as I can. The next time I pass through Moratinos I'll drop by, and set you straight over a friendly glass of Don Simon!

Pax

 

[fraluchi]

[...] you so need to fall in love with a Brit!!

David, excellent advice. I did so 54 years ago with Annakappa and we're still going strong on a reduced budget.

 

[Stefystar]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.

I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. I state in the handouts "This is a budget trip, not a five-star vacation." "We are not a company, we are pilgrims helping pilgrims." But I've discovered that many do not bother to read the material I send out. That assumption is based on the constant questions I get about material I covered in the hand outs.

For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino (and there HAVE been more positive experiences than negative) in past years, I'm feeling "done."

It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I do know myself.

I have learned I don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.

So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::
*****
I also need to add that I have met and led WONDERFUL people on the Camino.
Many more of those than the negative type.
Most of the people in my groups have been polite, fun-loving, respectful, spiritual, and kind PILGRIMS who I have thoroughly enjoyed. It just seems there's always that one or two in each group that tries to ruin it.

I'm grateful for the conversation this has opened up.
I will leave the post up.

Today is a better day!
Thanks all.

Hi Anniesantiago,
I have gone through all the huge amount of replies your vent generated.
The way I see it (with my limited experience on walking the camino), it is about perspective of what the camino is..
Fundamentally a life changing experience.
The point you enter this experience..is the difference on how much longer is your journey, beside the miles themselves.
I joined to heal my pain of grief and never walked long distance before... I was compelled to do it.. I had a call, some say.
Some other join to please a loved one, I spoke to a woman that told me she was only doing it for her husband sake.

 

[Stefystar]

I used to volunteer on the ski patrol at our local resort, helping tourists with everything from lost phones to broken backs. I had to spend an hour on call in a lift house with one of the full time paid patrollers who was clearly having a similar day. She went into a rave on how these tourists have no understanding or respect for the mountain, the weather, the sport, the outdoors, etc.

I felt the lady was in the wrong job. She shouldn't expect the tourists to be up to her level, she should be helping them with the expertise she had and they obviously did not. But after reading Annie's post, maybe she was just tired and needed to vent.

So Annie, you are unquestionably a Camino expert. Are you just burned out, or is leading tours not the best job for you? Do you take joy in bringing the Camino experience to others and are you the type of teacher they might emulate? Take a deep breath, rest up and decide if you love the Camino but do or don't love leading Camino trips.

In the interest of making you smile again, I'll repost some stuff. first, for the people with heavy packs:

1. Instead of packing 8 beers for your overnight backpacking trip, just take 6. Total weight savings: 1.5 pounds.

2. At the trailhead, open your pack and remove two or three pairs of shoes from it. Leave them in the car.

3. Instead of that old kerosene lantern, try a headlamp. This can shave several ounces off your pack weight. For example, by leaving your Coleman 1 Mantle Kerosene Lantern at home and replacing it with a Petzl Tikka headlamp, you’ll decrease your total pack weight by 4 pounds, 11 ounces.

4. If you notice you have a baby with you, run back into town quick and find someone to babysit it for the weekend. Babies are heavy and become awkward to carry after several miles. Plus they require lots of extra food and gear like diapers.

5. At the trailhead, set aside all your heavy stuff and ask your friend to carry it for you. Explain that you are trying to lighten your pack.

6. Try to limit yourself to three or fewer stuffed animals.

7. Portable video game consoles are heavy. Instead of your Playstation Vita (1 pound, 10 ounces), download a few games like Angry Birds Star Wars II, 80 Days, Asphalt 8, and NBA Jam to your iPhone and hope those will get you by for the weekend or week.

8. Instead of packing separate bottles of shampoo, conditioner, mousse, gel, detangler, and hairspray, try using a stylish but lightweight hat to hide your dirty hair for the weekend.

9. Buy all new stuff. If your stuff is from last year, it’s very likely way heavier than this year’s stuff. Go into a gear store and tell them to give you all new camping stuff, and enjoy the weight savings, plus the shiny newness. If anyone gives you any shit about it, such as your spouse, tell them your old stuff was too heavy and it was giving you back pain.

10. If you have some things that are troubling you, tell them to someone on the way to your hike, or to your friend when you meet at the trailhead. Even if it’s just a convenience store attendant or bartender, it can be very cathartic to just get your problems off your chest. This will lighten your pack, if only metaphysically.

And these Complaints:

A recent survey from Thomas Cook and ABTA reveals 20 of the most ridiculous complaints by holiday-makers made to their travel agent.

1. "I think it should be explained in the brochure that the local store does not sell proper biscuits like custard creams or ginger nuts."

2. "It's lazy of the local shopkeepers to close in the afternoons. I often needed to buy things during 'siesta' time - this should be banned."

3. "On my holiday to Goa in India, I was disgusted to find that almost every restaurant served curry. I don't like spicy food at all."

4. "We booked an excursion to a water park but no-one told us we had to bring our swimming costumes and towels."

5. A tourist at a top African Game Lodge over looking a water hole, who spotted a visibly aroused elephant, complained that the sight of this rampant beast ruined his honeymoon by making him feel "inadequate".

6. A woman threatened to call police after claiming that she'd been locked in by staff. When in fact, she had mistaken the "do not disturb" sign on the back of the door as a warning to remain in the room.

7. "The beach was too sandy."

8. "We found the sand was not like the sand in the brochure.Your brochure shows the sand as yellow but it was white."

9. A guest at a Novotel in Australia complained his soup was too thick and strong. He was inadvertently slurping the gravy at the time.

10. "Topless sunbathing on the beach should be banned. The holiday was ruined as my husband spent all day looking at other women."

11. "We bought 'Ray-Ban' sunglasses for five Euros from a street trader, only to find out they were fake."

12. "No-one told us there would be fish in the sea. The children were startled."

13. "It took us nine hours to fly home from Jamaica to England it only took the Americans three hours to get home."

14. "I compared the size of our one-bedroom apartment to our friends' three-bedroom apartment and ours was significantly smaller.."

15. "The brochure stated: 'No hairdressers at the accommodation’. We’re trainee hairdressers - will we be OK staying there?"

16. "There are too many Spanish people. The receptionist speaks Spanish. The food is Spanish. Too many foreigners now live abroad."

17. "We had to queue outside with no air conditioning."

18. "It is your duty as a tour operator to advise us of noisy or unruly guests before we travel."

19. "I was bitten by a mosquito, no-one said they could bite."

20. "My fiancé and I booked a twin-bedded room but we were placed in a double-bedded room. We now hold you responsible for the fact that I find myself pregnant. This would not have happened if you had put us in the room that we booked."

 

[Stefystar]

Hi Anniesantiago,
I had not completed my post
Well I agree as a solo walker,I became a pilgrim on the way.
And I am, when I think of who I am, a pilgrim.
That is because I had walked my experience with intent, I seeked answers and healing.
I have also noticed commercial increased interest on organised group.. which it could allow some to access the camino experience..not everyone is a walker to start..
What is ultimately that we seek?
We believe camino changes life's. . We can also accept that to start for some is just a long walk, an adventure.
I for one, never sow it that way, is deep and religious undertaking, but we live in a modern society..
Maybe this experience is a unique way for some to reconnect to other human beings, and maybe end up pilgrims after all.
For anyone, regardless of motivation respect for others is paramount.. and you don't always get that, as modern society is very self centered and to a degree selfish.
So Anniesantiago, keep doing your groups, you may not realisee but you may help to change someone's life..
But you may never know..

 

[Anniesantiago]

Hey, Annie - 900 dollars a month is just about equal to our full pension payment in the UK. Do without a car and cook real food (rather than buying so called food in cardboard boxes) and it is plenty to live on.
You need to get over here and marry a Brit - then you would also get rent paid for by the State, plus council tax, plus free opticians, plus free dental, plus free medical care - no limit, plus a free bus pass - you so need to fall in love with a Brit!!

Looking for a husband... are you available? :::laughing:::

 

[David]

Looking for a husband... are you available? :::laughing:::

Well, I am single, have been for over twelve years now - apart from choosing not to engage again is possibly because I am a nightmare to live with, who knows (I have this terrible thing of demanding utter honesty )

 

[Anniesantiago]

Well, I am single, have been for over twelve years now - apart from choosing not to engage again is possibly because I am a nightmare to live with, who knows (I have this terrible thing of demanding utter honesty )

 

[MinaKamina]

..... (I have this terrible thing of demanding utter honesty )

How do you survive on this forum, David? Many will not even accept the gift of partial honesty, and then the moderators have to interfere...

 

[movinmaggie]

Well, I am single, have been for over twelve years now - apart from choosing not to engage again is possibly because I am a nightmare to live with, who knows (I have this terrible thing of demanding utter honesty )

Ditto David, I wouldn't have it any other way, especially when I think of the grief I'm saving some very fortunate fellow!

 

[Deleted member 43780]

Just finished my last Camino.
I will not walk another one!

Over ther last 14 years +/- Few, I have personally witnessed a decline in manners, respect, behavior... etc

People today are all about “ME.”

I personally have seen all of the things listed by OP and more!

The last few years have been the worse.

IMHO, good days walking a Camino are long gone.

 

[VNwalking]

IMHO, good days walking a Camino are long gone.

Unless you stay well away from the Frances.
Fortunately there are still places that haven't been overrun by selfish tourigrinos.

 

[David]

Just finished my last Camino.
I will not walk another one!

Over ther last 14 years +/- Few, I have personally witnessed a decline in manners, respect, behavior... etc

People today are all about “ME.”

I personally have seen all of the things listed by OP and more!

The last few years have been the worse.

IMHO, good days walking a Camino are long gone.

Marty - I had exactly the same strong anti feelings a couple of years back and for the same reasons .. I even complained that everyone seemed to be wearing only clothing and equipment that was designer label and expensive - rather put me off - and I came home (was a first aid outing) .... but ... I settled, thought about it .. realised that my first aid mission wasn't to do with judging people but to help pilgrims in need - regardless of how rude or visually wealthy they had become so went back again a few months later, but with Shakespeare's thoughts (in Hamlet) "there is neither good nor bad until the mind makes it so"- and I let go my judgemental thoughts, put them down like a heavy suitcase and walked away from them .. and on the next visit looked at pilgrims ... really looked, went beyond the surface, talked with the rude, talked with the silent, talked with the pre-occupied - and I found that all was well ... that my response to the earlier visit had all been in my head and that pilgrims are as they have always been - that rich mix of humanity .... so, Marty, give it time and maybe we will see you back on Camino again?

 

[Robo]

I don't know if this is a good idea or not but if you do do something like this you could say that it is to get a compatible group. Just don't say it is to get a group compatible with the camino ways.

Feeling for you Annie........

My dear departed Mother in Law had a lovely saying.

Sometimes you have to shoot the Chicken to train the Monkey!

Make it very clear what the expectations are, and if people misbehave..........BOOT THEM as an example.

Maybe in your material or on your website, in a nice way, give examples of what constitutes bad behaviour.

And as others have said, 'vet' the applicants. Make them feel like they won the lottery just to get onto one of your groups!

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Just finished my last Camino.
I will not walk another one!

Over ther last 14 years +/- Few, I have personally witnessed a decline in manners, respect, behavior... etc

People today are all about “ME.”

I personally have seen all of the things listed by OP and more!

The last few years have been the worse.

IMHO, good days walking a Camino are long gone.

I can well understand your feelings. After what happened to me on my 2nd Camino from SJPdP to Burgos -- and especially while I was in Burgos -- I almost quit right then and there. It took me a long time to get over the initial anger of the boorish behavior, and the rest of the way to Santiago I developed strategies to avoid the situations of indiscriminately being around others which exposed me to that nonsense.

I look back at that meltdown and it seems far removed from now. I look forward this Fall to walking the Aragones, and then with my wife on the Ingles.

My thoughts are with you.

 

[Deleted member 397]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.

I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. I state in the handouts "This is a budget trip, not a five-star vacation." "We are not a company, we are pilgrims helping pilgrims." But I've discovered that many do not bother to read the material I send out. That assumption is based on the constant questions I get about material I covered in the hand outs.

For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino (and there HAVE been more positive experiences than negative) in past years, I'm feeling "done."

It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I do know myself.

I have learned I don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.

So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::
*****
I also need to add that I have met and led WONDERFUL people on the Camino.
Many more of those than the negative type.
Most of the people in my groups have been polite, fun-loving, respectful, spiritual, and kind PILGRIMS who I have thoroughly enjoyed. It just seems there's always that one or two in each group that tries to ruin it.

I'm grateful for the conversation this has opened up.
I will leave the post up.

Today is a better day!
Thanks all.

Great post. The w ashing machines in France are similar..and a mystery so i left well enough alone. Ive posted mildly negative things in the past and been jumped on with platitudes like the camino provides..it doesnt...or in response to bad behaviour..its their camino..it's not,your selfish behaviour affects others. Just because its a camino doesn't mean you can't tell others to be considerate...about which it still amazes me that you have to tell these idiots that plastic bag rustling,shining those damn head torches around,talking on mobile phones...and putting alarms on!..WHY?!..got to go to work?! Etc etc.
Such a contrast with other routes..in france i was on one occasion driven the 300 metres (he insisted!)to proudly shown the refuge..with a fully stocked fridge and kitchen. At the time i thought this place would last 2 days on the cf before the rapacious thieves stole and trashed everything.

 

[trecile]

I don't look for rude and selfish people so I haven't really seen many of them.