Is permethrin carcinogenic?

[pvh]

I've just treated my sleep liner backpack and clothes with lifesystems ex 4 permethrin spray which I've had to bring inside and allow to dry in my hall (just outside my bedroom). Having to do that I Googled any hazards associated with permethrin and according to us epa it is a known carcinogen! Eek! Now I really am worried. Anyone here able to offer any perspective on this to help ease my anxiety?

 

[Anniesantiago]

First, you'll only be using it for a few weeks.
Second, the small amount you use for such a short time is unlikely to cause harm, in my opinion.
I personally would not have treated my clothing; just the outside of my pack and the outside of my sleeping bag.
I'd probably wash my clothes to remove it.

Based on studies in laboratory animals, permethrin could possibly cause cancer in humans. However, the cancer occurred in animals only after being treated with very high levels of permethrin over very long periods of time.

 

[pvh]

Many thanks for the reassurance.

 

[Pelgrimpaul]

Why would you expose yourself to a carcinogen, even for a short amount of time?

 

[Kanga]

I've read the research, i.e. the evidence, and the risks appear negligible. Crossing the road is much more likely to kill me, and I do that all the time.

 

[Pruden]

Un Spain is well known as a carcinogen, but still use for few things !
I would recomend to be carefull!

 

[grayland]

There have been many threads on this subject.
All have been controversial.
Do a search on "permethrin" to see the threads.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

It is not on the list of cancer causing chemicals. Cosmetics have more toxic ingredients.

 

[newfydog]

Why would you expose yourself to a carcinogen, even for a short amount of time?

`
Well, my wife got some kind of insect bite at a jungle wildlife lodge in Nepal. It would not heal, so she finally went to the dermatologist. It had turned into a form of skin cancer and the entire irritated area was promptly removed.

The health benefits of some carcinogens outweigh their risk.

 

[ricitosdeplata]

Weighing the risks vs the benefits, I'm wondering if it's worth it. I'm undecided. Has anybody had good results (no bedbugs) by treating your backpack?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Has anybody had good results (no bedbugs) by treating your backpack?

I am sure that it has helped me keep the hitchhikers out of my home, but the treatment of my sleeping bag is what has kept me from being bitten. I did have one drop from the upper bunk in Pamplona, evading my permethrin measures. I squished him.

 

[Pelgrimpaul]

`
Well, my wife got some kind of insect bite at a jungle wildlife lodge in Nepal. It would not heal, so she finally went to the dermatologist. It had turned into a form of skin cancer and the entire irritated area was promptly removed.

The health benefits of some carcinogens outweigh their risk.

Jungle in Nepal!
We're talking about Spain, and the chance you'll contact an albergue infected with bedbugs (and not beforehand be informed by other pilgrims) isn't that big. Yes, there is a chance.
But, as on issues like type of shoes, type of raingear, etc. it's each pilgrim's own decision.
My opinion is just another opinion ;-)

 

[Tessera]

If you use permethrin anywhere near pets, be aware (read the label) that it is very toxic to cats, and can cause nerve damage. Cats apparently lack an enzyme that breaks it down.

 

[Kanga]

@ricitosdeplata yes. One year when we were walking in France the gites were having a real problem. I bought and used "Clako". And had no problems. Others did. If you are getting your bags carried be aware than cross contamination can occur when the bags are nestled up beside each other.

 

[newfydog]

Jungle in Nepal!
We're talking about Spain,-)

Actually, we weren't. I was answering a question on permethrin... "why would anyone expose themselves to the stuff".

However, you don't have to go to Nepal to get a bad reaction to bites. Look around on this forum and you'll find people who were hospitalized or had to quit their trip because of reactions to bites. I've had just a few bedbug bites, and they swelled up dramatically. If I ever got a lot of them, it would be serious.

 

[Kanga]

I would prefer to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. For that reason my equipment will all be treated with permethrin so than I don't unwittingly become a carrier.

 

[newfydog]

Here's a nice one:

am on the Camino now and was bitten hundreds of times by something in los arcos. Bubbly intensely itchy blisters and swelling of hands, ankles, head, and neck. A traveling dr. saved my life with antibiotics and steroids.
Turning in bed trying not to let blistered legs touch, i twisted my knee.
Walked for a few days but now cannot stand.
Very sad my Camino is over.

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/bedbugs-a-rocky-road.29511/#post-249035

 

[pvh]

My goodness, what a response! I suppose I was originally looking for a little perspective over the US EPA advice. I am from the UK and can't actually seem to find any UK or EU based advice, so really what I would be interested in is some context for the US research, ie is it quite frequent that such advice, as in "May cause cancer in humans", is given over everyday items or items that can easily be purchased. I mean I just walked into a major high street outdoors shop in the UK and bought it, without any restriction or advice. Is the US EPA advice more of a covering all bases in case of litigation and given over many everyday things or is it something that really should be taken notice of? I am in no way passing any judgement but just want to gain some perspective and context.

 

[edandjoan]

We used it on our backpacks and sleeping bags for our 3 weeks from Leon to Finisterra/Muxia in September 2012. I had a few "bumps" on one arm, no itching, maybe bug bites if my arm had slipped out of my bag one night. We used in on our packs and bags for 3 weeks in Ireland in September 2013; for 2 weeks in Israel on the Jesus trail in May 2014; and again in Aug/Sept 2014 for 6 weeks from SJPP to Leon and the Primitivo and no bug bites. We sprayed our packs and bags again for our Le Puy walk starting next week. We are comfortable using it.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The EPA and FDA do a decent job. Several lines of popular clothing are treated with permethrin. It is approved by the Canadian military for its soldiers. It has been shown to be effective, if not perfect, as an insecticide and repellent.

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/REDs/factsheets/permethrin_fs.htm

 

[DavidBoise]

Why would you expose yourself to a carcinogen, even for a short amount of time?

You mean, such as solar radiation or eating food out of plastics lined steel cans? ;-)

Seriously, though, the EPA documents state that permethrin (a pyrethroid class pesticide) is a "weak carcinogen" with the greatest threat coming from direct ingestion and at high levels (moral: don't eat your clothes). There are more serious environmental threats to fish (from applications at high agricultural levels), so don't wash your permethrin clothes in local streams or lakes).

Summary below is from the EPA website.
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/REDs/factsheets/permethrin-facts-2009.pdf

From page 5 of that document:
Risks
Dietary
Acute, chronic non-cancer, and cancer dietary (food and drinking water) risks from permethrin were below the Agency’s level of concern (LOC).

Residential
All handler scenarios (cancer and non-cancer) assessed were below the Agency’s LOC.
The non-cancer post-application risk estimates for adults, youth aged children, and toddlers exposed to an environment treated with permethrin were below the Agency’s LOC. All post-application scenarios for adults, youth aged children, and toddlers were below the Agency’s cancer LOC. However, the combined oral and dermal exposure for toddlers to indoor broadcast surface spray is below the Agency’s cancer LOC.

The Agency considered post-application exposure to both outdoor residential misting systems and permethrin treated clothing. All scenarios were below the Agency’s non-cancer and cancer LOCs.

Aggregate Risks
The acute aggregate risk non-cancer and cancer estimate from food and drinking water does not exceed the Agency’s LOC.

Page 8: With regard to the treatment of fabrics, permethrin is the only pesticide registered to pre-treat fabrics,...

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Weighing the risks vs the benefits, I'm wondering if it's worth it. I'm undecided. Has anybody had good results (no bedbugs) by treating your backpack?

It's hard to say if the chemical sprayed in the bag was the reason for not getting bitten or if you simply did not come in contact with them. Talk on the Camino is that the chinches we get are wild and collected intially when putting your bag down in the ground for a lunch break, potty break, photo break. And yes, from there from bedding and mattresses. Hence the spraying of the outised of the bag.

I also spray sleeping bag and liner, and always leave my stuff paked away in pack or on sleeping bag to get the help of the chemical. Finally I spray a peice of tule I bring to cover the mattress, think wedding veil material, so this way even if the arms stick out or sheet of paper the Xunta gives, I am fine.

Actually, my liner was pretreated by the manufacturer and I treated my thicker sleeping bag. I prefer the idea of the sleeping bag as the product is outside of it whereas on the thin liner it's probabltpy in contact with my skin. I certianly would not spray my clothes, just want might come in contact with the chinches.

 

[C clearly]

the chance you'll contact an albergue infected with bedbugs (and not beforehand be informed by other pilgrims) isn't that big.

I would strongly disagree. The chances are quite high. I have encountered them on 2 out of 2 Caminos. Once we caught and examined a live specimen and the second time I had a very distinctive reaction.

 

[pvh]

I did spray the straps and back support sections of my backpack too so these will probably get repeatedly sweaty and wet, so anyone think that's actually an increased risk?

Also is the consensus here that the US EPA risk advice is on a par with PET plastic bottle reuse or clingfilm or sun bathing etc. IE in theory its possible but in every day usage its so ridiculously unlikely that's its actually no risk at all in real terms?

Even if one does get the treated items regularly in touch with myself wet with sweat and friction?

Sorry to sound paranoid, just not sure how to put this in perspective and context.

Don't want bed bugs, particularly at home but equally don't want to put my or any of my family's lives at risk.

 

[grayland]

I always treat pack, sleeping bag, and liner. I have walked eight Caminos and never had a bedbug bite despite being in albergues where others were bitten.

Did the treatment keep me safe?? Impossible to know..but I have absolutely no hesitation to continue to treat my gear every time.
The EPA report is clear that the danger is nearly non-existent.
Those who are strongly anti-chemical activists will no doubt continue to advise others to avoid treating gear.
Read the EPA articles and Canadian government reports and make your own decision.
Just be a bit cautious about internet articles that are posted by groups with an obvious agenda.

 

[grayland]

If you are concerned about using Permethrin....just don't use it and take your chances with the critters. No one here is trying to convince others to treat their gear.
Use your own judgement.

 

[dougfitz]

You might want to check out http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html, which suggests it might be carcinogenic if you eat it! Otherwise it doesn't seem to be a concern.

Treating outerwear is generally not a problem, but I would ask why if your concern is bedbugs. Unless you plan to wear your outerwear while sleeping, treatment won't protect you from them.

If you have treated underwear or items that might come into contact with moist areas such as eyes, nose or mouth, it might be worth washing those items a few times to reduce the level of residual permethrin.

 

[Phillypilgrim]

Okay, two Caminos, no treatment of gear, and bedbed bites both times. My bites were not too bad though, but the ongoing concern about carrying them on my gear is stressful. I have seen up close, pilgrims who are clearly allergic to the bedbug bites and my heart breaks for them. The welts are awful. Next Camino I will treat my gear.

 

[viajero.ken]

Question for the members who chose to treat with permethrin, how much time in advance should I spray my stuffs? I suppose treating too early will cause it to lose its effect sooner. Thanks.

 

[ricitosdeplata]

@viajero.ken, I have the same question. Sawyer permethrin says the application is good for 42 days.

 

[wesojourn]

I always treat pack, sleeping bag, and liner. I have walked eight Caminos and never had a bedbug bite despite being in albergues where others were bitten.

Did the treatment keep me safe?? Impossible to know..but I have absolutely no hesitation to continue to treat my gear every time.
The EPA report is clear that the danger is nearly non-existent.
Those who are strongly anti-chemical activists will no doubt continue to advise others to avoid treating gear.
Read the EPA articles and Canadian government reports and make your own decision.
Just be a bit cautious about internet articles that are posted by groups with an obvious agenda.

Greetings grayland, Excited about my first Camino, beginning on 2 September, I am readied, by your post! I will use the permetherin at this start.

 

[mdelag]

Hi !! How much time in advance do we have to treat our stuff before leaving for the Camino ?

 

[paul.ferris]

The EPA and FDA do a decent job. Several lines of popular clothing are treated with permethrin. It is approved by the Canadian military for its soldiers. It has been shown to be effective, if not perfect, as an insecticide and repellent.

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/REDs/factsheets/permethrin_fs.htm

You are on shaky ground if you assume that what the Canadian military approves for its soldiers is any kind of guarantee of safety.

 

[zzotte]

The EPA and FDA do a decent job. Several lines of popular clothing are treated with permethrin. It is approved by the Canadian military for its soldiers. It has been shown to be effective, if not perfect, as an insecticide and repellent.

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/REDs/factsheets/permethrin_fs.htm

Ya, so was agent orange right? DDT and etc. No thanks I will continue to take my chances, keep your stuff of the floors, and don't let your body touch
directly on the mattress, pillows etc always use your on cover or sleeping bag I know people will think you are a germophobic but who cares what other people will think.

Zzotte

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I won't get into paranoia and fantasy here; I get a disability check for exposure to Agent Orange, so I am quite aware of its history. I believe those who test products, not those who have opinions about them.

 

[Kanga]

In making your decision about whether or not to use permethrin please include thought of the harm caused by bedbug carriers. Herd immunity is an important consideration.

 

[Bogong]

Look a hundred, maybe fifty (in my case probably about ten) years ahead and it won't matter.

I have advice that diesel is a Class 1 carcinogen, yes, the same category as asbestos, and people don't seem to worry about slopping it into their cars. And some of the aromatics used to boost octane ratings in unleaded petrol are carcinogenic as well.

Don't worry about permethrin. Be happy!

De colores

Bogong

 

[dougfitz]

I have advice that diesel is a Class 1 carcinogen

Off topic warning! Diesel fuel is not a listed carcinogen, but diesel exhaust is. Slopping diesel fuel into your vehicle won't be an issue, but driving it afterwards will!

 

[grayland]

Please stay on topic. Take a discussion on other potential carcinogens to another forum...it is not a camino topic.

The discussion here is moving into the "opinion" area without facts to back them up.
I wonder if there is any further gain to be had on this subject.

A search of previous Permethrin threads will show that the discussions/arguments are all the same.

Thanks.

 

[newfydog]

Enough on the carcinogens. I did read it affects the brain and renders one argumentative though.....

 

[zzotte]

This is direct from EPA long paper
Additionally, the Agency classified permethrin as “Likely to be Carcinogenic to Humans” by the oral route. This classification was based on two reproducible benign tumor types (lung and liver) in the mouse, equivocal evidence of carcinogenicity in Long- Evans rats, and supporting structural activity relationship information.

Zzotte

 

[dougfitz]

Additionally, the Agency classified permethrin as “Likely to be Carcinogenic to Humans” by the oral route.

I did some quick calculations based on the NPIC technical fact sheet and the Sawyer product information page for their spray and it would appear that you would need to consume about 5kg of this product to achieve the lowest LD50 oral dose.

I couldn't find a risk level for permethrin as a carcinogen, and would be interested to know what you have been able to find out in your literature reviews.

I did note that IARC suggested in 2014 that further research should be a high priority following the release of the 2012 NCI Agricultural Health Study. That study identified five pesticides of interest - chlorpyrifos, coumaphos, fonofos, phorate and permethrin - in relation to increased incidences of prostrate cancer identified in the (quite large) study population, and permethrin may also be associated with increased incidences of multiple myeloma. Previously (1991) IARC had assigned it to Group 3 (not classifiable as to its carcinogenicity to humans).

It seems to me that regular exposure to permethrin and other insecticides in an agricultural setting is likely to be quite different to the sorts of exposure to consumer permethrin based products on the camino. I am not suggesting that one should ignore taking precautions when applying this product. Follow the directions, take care disposing of any waste and clean up properly. But the evidence that I have seen does not suggest to me that one should stop using it as part of other arrangements to prevent bed-bug bites.

 

[Davis Baltz]

I did some quick calculations based on the NPIC technical fact sheet and the Sawyer product information page for their spray and it would appear that you would need to consume about 5kg of this product to achieve the lowest LD50 oral dose.

I couldn't find a risk level for permethrin as a carcinogen, and would be interested to know what you have been able to find out in your literature reviews.

I did note that IARC suggested in 2014 that further research should be a high priority following the release of the 2012 NCI Agricultural Health Study. That study identified five pesticides of interest - chlorpyrifos, coumaphos, fonofos, phorate and permethrin - in relation to increased incidences of prostrate cancer identified in the (quite large) study population, and permethrin may also be associated with increased incidences of multiple myeloma. Previously (1991) IARC had assigned it to Group 3 (not classifiable as to its carcinogenicity to humans).

It seems to me that regular exposure to permethrin and other insecticides in an agricultural setting is likely to be quite different to the sorts of exposure to consumer permethrin based products on the camino. I am not suggesting that one should ignore taking precautions when applying this product. Follow the directions, take care disposing of any waste and clean up properly. But the evidence that I have seen does not suggest to me that one should stop using it as part of other arrangements to prevent bed-bug bites.

I've just treated my sleep liner backpack and clothes with lifesystems ex 4 permethrin spray which I've had to bring inside and allow to dry in my hall (just outside my bedroom). Having to do that I Googled any hazards associated with permethrin and according to us epa it is a known carcinogen! Eek! Now I really am worried. Anyone here able to offer any perspective on this to help ease my anxiety?

 

[Davis Baltz]

My advice would be to avoid contact as much as possible with permethrin or any other potentially carcinogenic chemical. We are exposed daily to multiple chemicals that are either known to be harmful or unstudied.

My experience traveling in many countries with potential bed bug exposure is to carry a plastic sheet to cover the mattress and create a layer between the mattress and yourself. The bed bugs cannot penetrate the plastic so you are protected even if the mattress is infested.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Question for the members who chose to treat with permethrin, how much time in advance should I spray my stuffs? I suppose treating too early will cause it to lose its effect sooner. Thanks.

I spray the OUTSIDE of my pack and the OUTSIDE of my sleeping bag about a week before I go.
I do not spray anything else.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Why would you expose yourself to a carcinogen, even for a short amount of time?

Because you are going to be on a trail for 6 months where bedbugs are rampant.
The permethrin is not touching your skin and your body is made to deal with such things in light doses, otherwise we'd all be dead from (fill in the blank of toxins we're exposed to on a daily basis).

If you were going to carry the pack for the rest of your life, maybe not.
But for a few weeks, I'd rather take the chance with permethrin than get eaten alive by bedbugs.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

My advice would be to avoid contact as much as possible with permethrin

You would want to avoid this (and several other) line of clothes:

Ex Officio
Why BugsAway Clothing?

BugsAway® apparel with Insect Shield® technology is a revolutionary tool to aid you in the battle against insects that can carry insect-borne diseases. With odorless and invisible insect protection, the only way to tell it’s there is that the bugs aren’t biting. The built-in insect repellent Permethrin provides a carefree outdoor experience, letting you focus on your adventure, not the bugs.


Their lawyers do not seem concerned with permethrin properly used.

http://www.exofficio.com/

 

[Anniesantiago]

Jungle in Nepal!
We're talking about Spain, and the chance you'll contact an albergue infected with bedbugs (and not beforehand be informed by other pilgrims) isn't that big. Yes, there is a chance.
But, as on issues like type of shoes, type of raingear, etc. it's each pilgrim's own decision.
My opinion is just another opinion ;-)

I have never walked the Camino and NOT seen people with horrific bedbug bites.
I've been lucky and was only bitten on my first Camino (and that's a maybe) but I always see other pilgrims with bedbug bites.
I've seen bites that swell up the size of a half-dollar and larger, huge welts, and know of several people who have ended up at the hospital with the bites.

You're right, it's each pilgrim's decision.
But my opinion, based on my experience, is that if you are walking between the months of May and October, and if you are staying in albergues, you might want to spray the outside of your pack and your sleeping bag.

I'm chemically sensitive. In fact I'm on disability for it.
I balked for years about spraying my stuff.
But after seeing and dealing with the damage (psychological as well as physical) by bedbug bites in one of my clients as well as many other pilgrims,
I've decided the possible danger of carrying a pack or sleeping with a bag sprayed with permethrin on the outside is worth not being bitten.

I'm not sure if you've walked the Camino yet, PilgrimPaul, but do as you wish, and may the Force be with you.

 

[zzotte]

The interesting thing about all this is that permethrin has been used to "prevent bed bug from attacking you" Mosquitoes yes and a bunch of other stuff but bed bugs it's not one of them. A mattress cover and box spring cover its more effective.

Zzotte

 

[MaidinBham]

I have no hesitation using permethrin on my gear after researching prior to Camino - didn't get bitten or see any sign of bedbugs. I camp/ hike a lot, and use it on all walking clothes and gear to deter deer ticks. It is safe, has no odor and I have made my own (much cheaper than Sawyer brand)
It is safer than suntan lotion - no toxicity when put on skin - you just can't use it that way because it is inactivated when in contact with skin. Some research suggests bedbugs are becoming resistant to permathrin, so may not be effective depending. Do the research and follow directions esp. around cats fish. If making your own check out tutorials on web, you can make a big batch and reuse over and over. And as one poster stated don't eat your clothes!

Janice

 

[Sally Forester]

I spray the OUTSIDE of my pack and the OUTSIDE of my sleeping bag about a week before I go.
I do not spray anything else.

I sprayed my backpack, bedsheet and sleeping bag last night with the Sawyer permethrin pray. It says it is completely odorless, but in my opinion everything now reeks. Did you find this as well with your use of this product? It's been 14 hours and things still smell. I've got everything in the yard to air out, but worried this smell will stick around and give me headaches/make me sick. Any advice?

 

[Tincatinker]

Sawyer state that their product is odourless when dry. https://sawyer.com/products/permethrin-premium-insect-repellent/ Depending on how thoroughly you wetted your gear, and also depending on local current humidity, your gear may not be dry.

You could always sue...

 

[Sally Forester]

Sawyer state that their product is odourless when dry. https://sawyer.com/products/permethrin-premium-insect-repellent/ Depending on how thoroughly you wetted your gear, and also depending on local current humidity, your gear may not be dry.

You could always sue...

LOL- I'm not the litigious type. Everything is definitely dry, but still smelly. I'll just leave it out in the yard for a few days to air out. Hope it fades.

 

[Tincatinker]

Best of luck and a Buen (Bug-free) Camino

 

[Anniesantiago]

I sprayed my backpack, bedsheet and sleeping bag last night with the Sawyer permethrin pray. It says it is completely odorless, but in my opinion everything now reeks. Did you find this as well with your use of this product? It's been 14 hours and things still smell. I've got everything in the yard to air out, but worried this smell will stick around and give me headaches/make me sick. Any advice?

I first of all would never spray my bed sheet if it will touch your skin.

I can smell the UPS man coming 2 miles away (no joke) and I can't smell Sawyers when it dries so I don't know what to tell you. Sorry. Let it air out?