A sad sign on the door at Grañon

[peregrina2000]

If you are on facebook, you can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6&set=a.1418027445598.57644.1079987357&type=1

If you're not, or if you don't read Spanish, it says:

11 Aug. 2015
Today: There will be no communal dinner
Tomorrow: There will be no breakfast

We are sorry that we cannot offer you our traditional communal dinner or morning breakfast. The donations we received are so trivial and the number of people who sit down to eat is so large, that we don't have the funds to provide it. We only have enough to pay for the cleaning products.

Thanks for understanding, and buen camino from the hospitaleros

Under the facebook entry, the Refugio Ocacio and Arietta posted this commentary, which I have roughly translated:

This is an example of of what the Camino is like these days. People come to the camino to abuse the albergues and hospitaleros who dedicate their time to the Camino and to the pilgrims. More albergues should react like this one did so that the abuse stops.

These people spend their money in bars and on wine but when it comes to the time to donate, they don't leave anything. We support this notice and think that all of us should do the same thing.

I know that change is inevitable with the huge increase in pilgrim numbers, but this is a sad development. Buen camino, Laurie

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Thank you Laurie for sharing this. Yet another example of what things have sadly come to. Acacio has had the courage to spell things out. I hope all those who see the signs in Granon learn something and start to question this business of "It's your Camino do as you please".

 

[C clearly]

Yes, that's sad but I'm glad the hospitaleros are being frank about the situation.Let's hope they leave a sign up, or something similar, to remind newcomers.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

If you are on facebook, you can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6&set=a.1418027445598.57644.1079987357&type=1

If you're not, or if you don't read Spanish, it says:

11 Aug. 2015
Today: There will be no communal dinner
Tomorrow: There will be no breakfast

We are sorry that we cannot offer you our traditional communal dinner or morning breakfast. The donations we received are so trivial and the number of people who sit down to eat is so large, that we don't have the funds to provide it. We only have enough to pay for the cleaning products.

Thanks for understanding, and buen camino from the hospitaleros

Under the facebook entry, the Refugio Ocacio and Arietta posted this commentary, which I have roughly translated:

This is an example of of what the Camino is like these days. People come to the camino to abuse the albergues and hospitaleros who dedicate their time to the Camino and to the pilgrims. More albergues should react like this one did so that the abuse stops.

These people spend their money in bars and on wine but when it comes to the time to donate, they don't leave anything. We support this notice and think that all of us should do the same thing.

I know that change is inevitable with the huge increase in pilgrim numbers, but this is a sad development. Buen camino, Laurie

Taking advantage of hospitality is really not okay.

I am certainly taking note.

 

[Robo]

Very sad indeed. Maybe Donativo Albergues should put up a sign saying........ Dinner, Bed and Breakfast e20 unless you are too poor to pay......

 

[Anniesantiago]

This is so sad. I'm sorry they have to resort to this, but I agree also, it's good to be frank.

 

[annakappa]

It's an unfortunate on-going discussion. Donativo or pay. I was hospitalera in a Donativo several years ago. I think that the daily average came to about €5 per person, which is crazy, also considering that breakfast was included in the stay. I watched someone put in a couple of euros! Then, there were some really honest and generous Pilgrims who would put in a larger denomination note, that would boost our daily income. We also had, on a couple of occasions, a Pilgrim saying that they had no money! We accepted them, but asked if they could do a few jobs around the albergue, that we hardly ever had time to do! At least they were open with their limitations, instead of slipping a couple of euro in the box! Some asked us a guide as to how much to donate and we simply said to consider a donation of at least as much as they would pay in a private albergue, plus breakfast.

 

[Icacos]

I'm ashamed to admit it but, had I stayed at the one donativo albergue I approached on the Francés [I was 'rejected and ejected,' but that's another story, which I can now laugh about] I would have donated what I now know is a trivial amount...simply because I didn't know, and did not appreciate the significance of it all. To be quite honest, I had so much going through my mind at the time, that I never gave it a thought, other than that it was a charitable organization offering shelter for just that - a donativo - for which shelter I was very grateful. It was only after I returned from my Camino and started really following this forum that I began to appreciate what these donativo albergues offered - a place to stay for pilgrims who could afford to pay, and a place to stay for pilgrims who could not afford to pay.

Obviously, what I needed on the Camino was a slap upside the head to make me appreciate how these donativo albergues actually operate. I'm sure it is not simply a matter of pilgrims not wanting to part with their money. Perhaps, as some members have already posted, some indication could be made of what would be a reasonable donation, and why, so that pilgrims could at least be made aware of what, and of whom, they are taking advantage.

Please don't anyone get on my case and say that I should have known better. Yes, I should have, but the fact is, I didn't.

(BTW, the reason I was rejected and ejected from that donativo albergue is that I 'fessed up to not having carried my pack that day, which is a no-no ... not the 'fessing up ... just the not carrying my pack, but that's another thread.)

 

[MichaelB10398]

Grateful that they have been frank in why their desires to serve cannot be fulfilled and a pox on every individual that has abused them by not donating when they could afford it and a blessing on those that donated generously. Karma is not something that can be avoided or hid from; I pity those that abuse the Way and all those who serve her.

 

[domigee]

Yes, that's sad but I'm glad the hospitaleros are being frank about the situation.Let's hope they leave a sign up, or something similar, to remind newcomers.

When I stayed at Grañon the hospitalera clearly explained to all of us that there was enough money for a communal dinner that night because of the previous day donations. The communal dinner for the following day pilgrims depended on OUR donations. If we didn't or couldn't , then there would be nothing for the others.
@Icacos The mistake or impossibility of one pilgrim to pay is normally offset by another leaving more so it balances out in the end.
What is horrible in this case is that no-one deigned leave a reasonable amount.
I am lost for words....

 

[Anemone del Camino]

In all sincerity, I would like to see Laurie's post, with the picture from Granon and Acacio' FB post, sent to each forum member or as a little "advert" square on line when we log in.

 

[domigee]

I don't think any members on this forum are ignorant of what donativo means, that's the beauty of discussing everything and anything at length on here.

 

[Kanga]

I recall that at the albergue in Guemes the hospitalero explained at length that we were not making a donation but by paying money we were participating in a co-operative venture. No set amount was requested.

@Icacos I think you have provided part of the answer. It is difficult for people to guess the unwritten rules of any society when they are new. That is why I think every donativo should have a poster or similar stating the actual cost of providing the stay for a pilgrim - with a request that people who can afford it pay extra to help those who could not pay.

This situation at Grañon is so sad. It supports my view that "donativo" is taken to mean "free".
For the last few years we have stayed in private gites, albergues and pensions because (a) we can afford to (b) it leaves the donativo beds for those who need them and (c) it supports the local economy. Perhaps people like me need to go back to the donativos and pay a decent amount to support the services they offer.

 

[GettingThere]

This is indeed very sad. I do wonder though, about the number of pilgrims who appear to be under the impression that some albergues are "free". Not so much on this forum really, as there has been plenty of discussion here about donativo and fair donations, but as we know most pilgrims are not on the forum. I have definitely seen and heard comments about "free albergues" and I don't know where this came from - it seems to be a myth that circulates among some people. I don't know the answer, but maybe there needs to be more signage (in a variety of languages) just explaining what it means when an albergue is donativo (and the very real consequences of trivial donations), to counteract the myth. Maybe a kind of glossary of camino terms (including donativo) could be handed out at some of the pilgrims' offices! It may be that this is made clear at some of the albergues and people just disregard it, and there are obviously plenty of people really taking advantage. "Suggested donation" signs or set fees could be the result, as could actual closure of some of these places, which would be a tragedy.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

On the Primitivo there are many donativos, with suggested donation prices. I wondered if it was a tax gimick: if it's a suggested donation they don't pay income tax, but perhaps they are just wise and hinting as to the cost of having a bed, hot water and a roof ready for us. I prefer my second, non machiavelich answer. I also remember on the Norte a young girl walking past the albergur at 7pm because it was not a donativo and she could not afford it. Someone who had met her before saw her and waved her in and paid the 8 euros. She then picked up her cell to tell her friend she was walking with that she was staying behind. For a Canadian who pays the highest cell phone rates in the world it was strange to see someone whipo didn't have 8€ for a bed whip out a cell, until I rememberd I pay the highest rate in the world for that priviledge.

 

[Sailor]

In reference to the note in Facebook, I like the comment by Refugio Acacio E Orietta --- "Gastan su dinero en bares, vinos, gañas ETC... pero na hora de colaborar con un albergue no dejan nada . . ."

 

[annakappa]

When I stayed at Grañon the hospitalera clearly explained to all of us that there was enough money for a communal dinner that night because of the previous day donations. The communal dinner for the following day pilgrims depended on OUR donations. If we didn't or couldn't , then there would be nothing for the others.
What is horrible in this case is that no-one deigned leave a reasonable amount.
I am lost for words....

I also remember that the hospitaleros in Grañon explained that.

 

[amorfati1]

I'm ashamed to admit it but, had I stayed at the one donativo albergue I approached on the Francés [I was 'rejected and ejected,' but that's another story, which I can now laugh about] I would have donated what I now know is a trivial amount...simply because I didn't know, and did not appreciate the significance of it all. To be quite honest, I had so much going through my mind at the time, that I never gave it a thought, other than that it was a charitable organization offering shelter for just that - a donativo - for which shelter I was very grateful. It was only after I returned from my Camino and started really following this forum that I began to appreciate what these donativo albergues offered - a place to stay for pilgrims who could afford to pay, and a place to stay for pilgrims who could not afford to pay.

Obviously, what I needed on the Camino was a slap upside the head to make me appreciate how these donativo albergues actually operate. I'm sure it is not simply a matter of pilgrims not wanting to part with their money. Perhaps, as some members have already posted, some indication could be made of what would be a reasonable donation, and why, so that pilgrims could at least be made aware of what, and of whom, they are taking advantage.

Please don't anyone get on my case and say that I should have known better. Yes, I should have, but the fact is, I didn't.

(BTW, the reason I was rejected and ejected from that donativo albergue is that I 'fessed up to not having carried my pack that day, which is a no-no ... not the 'fessing up ... just the not carrying my pack, but that's another thread.)

(as an aside:
one option for anyone who has experienced a similiar situation (and finds out afterwards), would be perhaps tucking sufficient euro notes in an envelope and addressing to that albergue you/they stayed and did not know about the 'donativo system'.
For e.g. I've severly underpaid something in the mid-80's in Bantry/Eire -- and whenever i thought of that incidence, i felt a twinge about it - so some years ago I finally dug up that address via the trusty ol' www. and placed 10$ in an envelope and send it off w/ a li'l note about the 'why'. veryyyy late action. but i always feel when we know better we do better
buen camino - saluti -

 

[Anemone del Camino]

(as an aside:
one option for anyone who has experienced a similiar situation (and finds out afterwards), would be perhaps tucking sufficient euro notes in an envelope and addressing to that albergue you/they stayed and did not know about the 'donativo system'.
For e.g. I've severly underpaid something in the mid-80's in Bantry/Eire -- and whenever i thought of that incidence, i felt a twinge about it - so some years ago I finally dug up that address via the trusty ol' www. and placed 10$ in an envelope and send it off w/ a li'l note about the 'why'. veryyyy late action. but i always feel when we know better we do better
buen camino - saluti -

I have done the same thing when reserving somewhere and staying elsewhere in the end. Great tip!

 

[mountaingoat999]

I have stayed in Granon a few times among other donativos and noticed the lack of donations, the last time a youngish women from Barcelona was walking with me . we helped a little with the food prep and we both did all the washing up, I donated on behalf of both of us.(this place needs serious cash to fund a safer gas installation than the current gas bottle job affair in the kitchen for cooking).

I noticed the open donation box had very little cash, and around 35 people stayed..most to be found in the bar drinking.
I noticed recently the small church in Burgos has a sign inside on the door"donativo " "6 euros ".??? I wondered why this had changed

last time passing EL BURGOS RANERO municipal I was told it was "completo" full. so I said I am camping on the grass and made it plain to see when collecting my sello I was donating 10 euro......a lot of people in the albergue looked away when I said in a loud voice how much has everyone donated..(the donation box is situated in the wall and difficult to view, so I used my small mirror I need for when wild camping to shave and could see a handful of coins only inside, considering the box is not emptied daily (the man comes from Sahagun every so often to remove the cash)..and apparently he had not be seen for a week
the volunteer then smiled, I looked around and could see a new new boiler had been installed since a few months before, and the same well clad pilgrims sporting the latest gear making full use of the kitchen etc etc every electric socket used to charge iphones and other expensive electrical gadgets.

pilgrims abusing the restricted free minutes your allowed on the computer,some on there for over an hour.

after pitching my tent I used the shower and in the morning..then I do something to help out before I leave, tidy the kitchen, throw out any food out of date from the kitchen, and this last visit helped the volunteer bring the spare washed sheets in of the line and folded away.

talking to the volunteer in this particular place(who was from Leon) he said the place needs only 2 euros from each person to maintain and help towards future upgrades....

a little respect for these places goes a long way
a little respect for the volunteer goes a long way, offer a vino or coffee etc.
euros pay for your shower and use of the kitchen- fuel and use of electric sockets.

I remember when your asked first for a bed (priority) and hot water was a luxury ...... now the first thing most ask for is Wi-fi..
The classic once was two pilgrims arrived ( same place 2014) and asked me how much it was, so I said its a donation..then the Male said do you get a meal as well...???.

I volunteered this year in Villafranca de bierzo twice this year. once for 8 days (took time out from one camino)then for two weeks I came back. one pilgrim said "oh you must get free food and a bed wink wink cheap holiday"

I paid for my flights, and I slept on the floor each night on my thermarest (reason for being there,so I could support the couple who own the place..cleaning taking out the rubbish)

we can donate in many ways....

 

[Albertagirl]

I find that, in a new and strange situation, it helps me to plan in advance where I have any information to help me plan. I have decided to give a 10 euro donation for my bed at any donativo albergue and the same for a meal. I wish that I could give more, but this is not possible for me at present. I plan on staying at Granon and if there is no food there, perhaps I shall remind myself of my many blessings and fast for one night. I shall try to keep my eyes and my heart open, so that when there is a kitchen I can share with the hungry. As a future pilgrim (leaving Sept. 28!) on a very limited budget, I find myself sympathizing with those who are tempted to regard "donativo" as a synonym for cheap (if not free) and a way to stretch tight resources. I am very sorry that this has happened at Granon and can only offer my sympathy/empathy for all concerned.

 

[Kanga]

@Albertagirl your attitude is honourable and if everyone had it we would not be in this pickle. Don't be apologetic - what you are suggesting is fair and reasonable. I don't like to think of someone on a tight budget, who has planned carefully, subsidising no-good freeloaders!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I am not surprised. There are too many questions in the Forum about finding the donativo albergues to not see that there are quite a few walkers looking for a free ride.

What surprises me is the sign. I am guessing that a couple of young volunteers were appalled by the stinginess of pilgrims. Their mandate is to take donations and get supplies for the day, one reason that the dinner is almost always lentils! I would be surprised if the next level of management would have posted such a sign. After decades in operation, it is not the first time the till is empty, so it cannot be a surprise to them. Was there no plan B other than to signal to the world inhospitality of a place known to be hospitable? Apparently.

Things change. Clinging to donativo takes a lot of work and patience. Even the Forum is getting more and more inquiries appropriate for travel agents, not for pilgrims sharing ideas on how to survive a long trek. The Resources section is filled with money making offers. Is it really surprising that Granon cannot fulfill its goal anymore in a world that is becoming more commercial? If they would accept backpacks from tourists looking for something quaint, they could solve their problem. The bad penny drives the good penny out. It always has. The Camino is for everybody? It can be if you add enough cash.

 

[Swinslow]

If you are on facebook, you can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6&set=a.1418027445598.57644.1079987357&type=1

If you're not, or if you don't read Spanish, it says:

11 Aug. 2015
Today: There will be no communal dinner
Tomorrow: There will be no breakfast

We are sorry that we cannot offer you our traditional communal dinner or morning breakfast. The donations we received are so trivial and the number of people who sit down to eat is so large, that we don't have the funds to provide it. We only have enough to pay for the cleaning products.

Thanks for understanding, and buen camino from the hospitaleros

Under the facebook entry, the Refugio Ocacio and Arietta posted this commentary, which I have roughly translated:

This is an example of of what the Camino is like these days. People come to the camino to abuse the albergues and hospitaleros who dedicate their time to the Camino and to the pilgrims. More albergues should react like this one did so that the abuse stops.

These people spend their money in bars and on wine but when it comes to the time to donate, they don't leave anything. We support this notice and think that all of us should do the same thing.

I know that change is inevitable with the huge increase in pilgrim numbers, but this is a sad development. Buen camino, Laurie

So true.
I heard people say it's a donativo so is free. Arg. I found that in a donativo I world leave as much as a privado simply for the bed, and an equivalent amt for any food so graciously prepared for me at a pilgrim menu in restaurant, sometimes more hoping it might provide a little financial relief to the albergue.

 

[musicagl]

I am so sorry to hear about Granon. It was one of my favorite stays on the Camino and I donated the same amount I would have paid at a private place. The forum this summer has been rather depressing with the stories of attitudes that are incompatible with pilgrimage.

 

[GreatDane]

I loved the little town of Granon because I had such a great experience there. I stayed at Sonrises, also a donativo (and I as others here have, donated what I would have spent at a private place plus added more euros after the great and filling dinner). I too had to make this pilgrimage on a reduced budget but I would have never ever thought of short changing the donativos I stayed at. This issue is making my blood boil!

 

[mspath]

During the past 10 years I have stayed in the parish albergue at Granon 10 times, sometimes as the only pilgrim and sometimes with several others. Of course I donated in the morning before leaving. Each time the Granon ambiance and caritas were so heartfelt and special. What a thrill it always was to climb those dark entry stairs and find the sign stating "welcome pilgrim make this is your home".

Now unfortunately our home is in trouble. What might we Granon veterans do to help? What are your ideas?

MM

 

[Deleted member 3000]

What are your ideas?

Charge.

 

[jpflavin1]

If you are on facebook, you can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6&set=a.1418027445598.57644.1079987357&type=1

If you're not, or if you don't read Spanish, it says:

11 Aug. 2015
Today: There will be no communal dinner
Tomorrow: There will be no breakfast

We are sorry that we cannot offer you our traditional communal dinner or morning breakfast. The donations we received are so trivial and the number of people who sit down to eat is so large, that we don't have the funds to provide it. We only have enough to pay for the cleaning products.

Thanks for understanding, and buen camino from the hospitaleros

Under the facebook entry, the Refugio Ocacio and Arietta posted this commentary, which I have roughly translated:

This is an example of of what the Camino is like these days. People come to the camino to abuse the albergues and hospitaleros who dedicate their time to the Camino and to the pilgrims. More albergues should react like this one did so that the abuse stops.

These people spend their money in bars and on wine but when it comes to the time to donate, they don't leave anything. We support this notice and think that all of us should do the same thing.

I know that change is inevitable with the huge increase in pilgrim numbers, but this is a sad development. Buen camino, Laurie

Laurie:

Thanks for making this post. Granon has been one of my favorite stops on the Camino and, imo, represents the ideal Albergue.

That said, Donativo, as we know it today, has to change. The time has come to run this place like a business. How much does it cost to run daily, per Pilgrim, and charge that amount.

That still leaves the issue of those who can not afford to pay. I would leave this as a judgement call on behalf of the Hospitalera/o.

Having to pay will not, imo, impact the atmosphere of this Albergue. Changing the Communal Pilgrim environment over an unwillingness to charge the true cost of it's operation is the wrong decision.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[annakappa]

Margaret....what can be done? My husband ( fraluchi) say charge for the stay! I'm not so sure, BUT I do think a special nicely worded sigh should be placed in a visible place explaining that donativo does not mean free! Also the donation box should be placed in a safe, but visible place.
Another poster could state the general running expenses of an Albergue: cleaning, electricity, gas, pest ( bed bug control), rotation laundry of bed linen, replacements in the kitchen, etc. etc!!!!!!!

 

[Bajaracer]

Margaret....what can be done? My husband ( fraluchi) say charge for the stay! I'm not so sure, BUT I do think a special nicely worded sigh should be placed in a visible place explaining that donativo does not mean free! Also the donation box should be placed in a safe, but visible place.
Another poster could state the general running expenses of an Albergue: cleaning, electricity, gas, pest ( bed bug control), rotation laundry of bed linen, replacements in the kitchen, etc. etc!!!!!!!

I totally agree, a sign in various languages would be perfect.

 

[jsalt]

The time has come to run this place like a business. How much does it cost to run daily, per Pilgrim, and charge that amount.

Hi, I have always understood that “donativo” means they are not allowed to officially charge set rates because they are not licensed as a business. Is this correct? So they have to operate with suggested “donations”. Once they are licensed to trade (in order to charge set prices) they are then subject to stringent rules and regulations regarding hygiene, fire exits, and everything else that comes under “health and safety” in the EU nowadays. While they remain “donativo” they can run their establishment however they wish, without being subject to governmental inspections. Jill

 

[annakappa]

Hi, I have always understood that “donativo” means they are not allowed to officially charge set rates because they are not licensed as a business. Is this correct? So they have to operate with suggested “donations”. Once they are licensed to trade (in order to charge set prices) they are then subject to stringent rules and regulations regarding hygiene, fire exits, and everything else that comes under “health and safety” in the EU nowadays. While they remain “donativo” they can run their establishment however they wish, without being subject to governmental inspections. Jill

I'm going to let Adrian ( fraluchi) reply to this, as he has much more information than me. However, he says that most of what you thought is not true. He'll get back to this thread a bit later!

 

[jsalt]

I'm going to let Adrian ( fraluchi) reply to this, as he has much more information than me. However, he says that most of what you thought is not true. He'll get back to this thread a bit later!

Happy to be corrected! Would like to know the official ruling on "donativos". Jill

 

[Rebekah Scott]

In Spain, if you run an establishment where a certain number of people are regularly fed and housed, you are subject to all kinds of health and safety inspections. Donativo albergues must have the same emergency lighting, proportion of beds to toilets, proportion of beds to square meters of room space, etc. as any commercial operation, as well as fire extinguishers, hot-enough hot water, and safe stairways. Some older places are "grandfathered in" to the new regulations -- you can't rebuild the inside of an ancient convent, after all -- but you will notice many rugged old albergues are moving house rather than refurbish the old place to remain competitive and meet the regs. (i.e. Calzada del Coto, Burgos).
Donativos have much of the same overhead cost as their "competitors." Today's "pilgrim" wants wifi, clean and hot showers, laundry facilities, and a charge for his electrical devices ... and Spain pays more for electricity than anyone else in Europe. The pilgrims demand "value for money." Which often means "everything, for as little money as possible."
So... if you look at the Camino as a financial enterprise, ideals are beautiful, but they won't pay the freight.
But the camino lives outside that world-view.
Twenty-five years ago in Hornillos del Camino, the first modern Donativo albergue was opened up on the camino. The woman who ran it continues to open her home (now in Fromista) to pilgrims, in exchange for a donation. She doesn't do it for the money. She does it for the love of God.
And she does it only in winter, when all the other albergues in town are closed down. They can't make enough money to make it worthwhile, so they allow that poor old donativo lunatic pick up the scraps. She does not complain about money. She doesn't judge the pilgrims by how much money they give her. Her hospitality is not a transaction. She has enough.
The camino has seen a whole lot of crime and abuse, freeloading and bureaucracy over its thousand years. This is only the latest wave.
Albergues come and they go, just like pilgrims, just like hospitaleros, just like the impoverished spirits who won't pay their share.
The simple generosity that is the camino spirit will survive us all.

 

[wayfarer]

Very well put Reb.

 

[Jane Erasmus]

This is so sad, as mentioned by other Pilgrims, my stay at Granon was such a memorable one, not just the meal together, but making it, washing up after and just the sharing of a slice of our lives together. In Cape Town South Africa, we have an annual Camino workshop where information is shared by past Pilgrims, hints and tips on walking etc and in all this valuable information is an explanation of the Donativo - and that is does not mean for free....and in fact more often than not Pilgrims are more generous when accommodated at these albergues. I do hope prospective Pilgrims take note.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

In Cape Town South Africa

Sixty percent of the pilgrims are Spanish, so I am not sure it is an English-language-country problem! The U.S., UK, and Ireland were in the top foreigner countries in August, but far behind European countries.

 

[pudgypilgrim]

Sixty percent of the pilgrims are Spanish, so I am not sure it is an English-language-country problem

Yeah, I'm walking the Voie de Tours next week and the latest update to the LePere list of hebergements there crosses off a surprising number of places that were either donativo gites or people who were willing to receive pilgrims into their homes, with the note that it's because of all the freeloading. And I think there are very, very few native English speakers on that route.

Such a pity.

 

[ricitosdeplata]

Thanks everyone for explaining how these donativos work and how we should not treat them as free.

 

[camino07]

Thanks everyone for explaining how these donativos work and how we should not treat them as free.

I vividly remember the one Albergue on the VDLP which was totally free and that was Casar de Caceres. The cafe across the road which holds the key refused to accept our donations although we were about 8 English speakers trying to give money.
I felt rather uncomfortable,not used to getting things for free!!
That was in 2012,perhaps things have changed.

 

[kaylfrazer]

I have very happy memories of staying at Granon in 2001. As we arrived we were told there was no sello .. the hospitalero told us, mainly using gestures, that they had no sello but lots of love. There was a donativo box, but we were also all given a piece of paper with a grocery item written on it and sent off the tienda to purchase it. The dinner was then cooked, served and cleared away, with help from all the pilgrims...it was a wonderful evening! I suspect that increasing numbers may have made this option no longer workable.. shame!

 

[bystander]

The camino has seen a whole lot of crime and abuse, freeloading and bureaucracy over its thousand years. This is only the latest wave.
Albergues come and they go, just like pilgrims, just like hospitaleros, just like the impoverished spirits who won't pay their share.
The simple generosity that is the camino spirit will survive us all.

Elegantly and succinctly put.
Thank you Rebekah.

 

[Deleted member 22638]

I think a donativo stop should be the expensive option.

They have the same requirements as other albergues so just donating what you would normally pay will not be enough because they carry the cost of those pilgrims who have nothing or little.

So we should donate to cover our costs, then add a further amount to help cover the cost of our less fortunate pilgrim friends.

 

[Kanga]

@jsalt no, they have to comply with exactly the same obligations and stringent rules as commercial providers of accommodation. This was brought home to us in Galicia where a new municipal albergue had just finished building entrance ramps and fitting railings and wide doorways into toilets and showers. This is because the law requires all providers of accommodation to be suitable for wheelchairs and the disabled.

 

[jpflavin1]

Albergues like Granon, Guemes, Miraz and others like Casa Belen, Pendueles and Santa Cruz be Bezana are true gems on the Camino. I believe we need to support these truly welcoming place, imo. I believe the minimum donations here should be 15-20 Euro's. In most cases you are getting a bed or sheltered place to sleep, dinner with the exception of Miraz, and some type breakfast. How much Cheaper can it be? I guess my definition is different.

I know Miraz they ask for an 8 euro donation, (is this considered expensive anywhere?)They also do not serve a dinner but have cooking facilities. Santa Cruz de Bezana, Pendueles and Casa Belen are people opening their private homes to Pilgrims. Guemes and Granon are two of the larger more communal serving dinner and breakfast. Sure you have to listen to Father Ernesto's History lesson but that is a small price to pay.

The problem here isn't people looking for a cheap vacation but those looking for a Freebie.

Rebekah is right when she says the Camino will survive and I know that change is a given in any environment. That said, if we lose these Albergues, many future Pilgrims will be deprived of some truly memorable stops along "The Way".

Donativo has to Change. At least to a suggested donation like they do in Miraz.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[domigee]

Margaret....what can be done? My husband ( fraluchi) say charge for the stay! I'm not so sure, BUT I do think a special nicely worded sigh should be placed in a visible place explaining that donativo does not mean free! !

My 1st ever night on the Camino was (unexpectedly) in a donativo albergue , la Kaserna in StJpdeP., newly opened. I had NO idea how much to give or what was expected so I asked the hospitalero, who had just arrived himself. He was brilliant :" let's say €10 for the bed, €10 for the meal so that'll be €20 and you get breakfast free "
I was very relieved he had been so straightforward and made it so easy.

BUT: and I hate to say this....Some (many!) of the pilgrims weren't happy! I was on duty to translate as neither the hospitalero nor his wife spoke anything but French and none of the pilgrims that night understood French.... LOTS of grumbling about 'this is way too much etc' . But they all paid up as he was -cheerfully- not having it any other way

It didn't mean much at the time for me (rabbit in headlights comes to mind!) but now I can see the larger picture. I think it needs a 'forceful' hospitalero/a to do exactly like he did. (Oh good, more stress for the hospitalero/a/s )

I don't know what the answer is... I'd like to think the people who can afford €10 for a bed will give that , there are many for whom it is a sacrifice, I'm thinking pilgrims from other countries.... I paid €12 or less for a (luxurious) whole house, many times, in Serbia, Bulgaria etc with people collecting the 'rent' for the owners apologising 'you sure you can afford this sort of money?' .... It is an eye-opener.

Even 'poor ' students in the West don't come anywhere close.

 

[Kanga]

I am minded of a comment made by Rebekah that albergues were flop-houses - I don't agree with her btw and I'm sure the owners, especially those who have invested heavily in upgraded facilities, would take great exception to that description. But it does seem as if that will be the eventual fate of donativo albergues that don't get sufficient funds to be properly run.

 

[Annette london]

If you are on facebook, you can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6&set=a.1418027445598.57644.1079987357&type=1

If you're not, or if you don't read Spanish, it says:

11 Aug. 2015
Today: There will be no communal dinner
Tomorrow: There will be no breakfast

We are sorry that we cannot offer you our traditional communal dinner or morning breakfast. The donations we received are so trivial and the number of people who sit down to eat is so large, that we don't have the funds to provide it. We only have enough to pay for the cleaning products.

Thanks for understanding, and buen camino from the hospitaleros

Under the facebook entry, the Refugio Ocacio and Arietta posted this commentary, which I have roughly translated:

This is an example of of what the Camino is like these days. People come to the camino to abuse the albergues and hospitaleros who dedicate their time to the Camino and to the pilgrims. More albergues should react like this one did so that the abuse stops.

These people spend their money in bars and on wine but when it comes to the time to donate, they don't leave anything. We support this notice and think that all of us should do the same thing.

I know that change is inevitable with the huge increase in pilgrim numbers, but this is a sad development. Buen camino, Laurie

What a shame that this should happen at this lovely albergue which we stayed at many years ago. We felt it right that 20euros each was given for a lovely meal and a place to sleep with a hot shower. This year we stayed in a casa rual because, thank the Lord we could afford it. I find it funny and rather sad that the self same people who do not support the albergue are well able to support the local bar! Would they ask for their drinks to be given in exchange for a donation? I think not. These so called pilgrims tat drink at the bars and have all the latest gizmos are beyond any respect.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

New albergues are built to code. Many of the old, traditional ones have not been required to renovate to code. When there is a renovation, usually the j/xunta requires it to be built to code. It is all but certain that the parochial in Granon is grandfathered. With only one egress, I doubt it conforms to fire codes. Without a major grant from the church, I doubt it will be renovated. Even stating a charge for staying, the revenue will not justify the cost of conforming to building codes. That is likely the problem at most donativo places, though some new ones that are conforming do it out of tradition and without complaining (which is why I was surprised by the door sign). I wish them well in being traditional. I don't think I could work for free, though. I am too prone to complain about cheapskates...

Twenty years ago, many places were the type where you dropped your pack and flopped down. I suspect that is the loose definition of a flop house on the Camino with no disrespect intended!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Just so everyone knows: The communal dinners and breakfasts are ongoing at Granon. That sign was a one-day deal. No mourning is warranted.

 

[fraluchi]

New albergues are built to code. Many of the old, traditional ones have not been required to renovate to code.[...]Twenty years ago, many places were the type where you dropped your pack and flopped down. [...]

That's how it was and is, where "donativo" is a choice of the owner(s). Eventually this may change, if and when the real "hospitalero" spirit is overruled by economical considerations.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Perhaps their should be a formula to figure what you pay: the more technical materials you wear and carry thr more you pay. You can afford a 75US$ Macabi, 300$ Northface sleeping bag and a 200$ Osprey backpack you pay 25€ a night! All cotton and old 5 pound army bacpack, welcome in!

 

[zzotte]

Good, about time they put a stop to free loaders all the albergues should do the same, it's a shame how so so many so called "pilgrims" brag how they get away with food and shelter for free shame on them. One evening I got so fed up I had a pow wow with a half dozen grown men and women too I vote to make all albergues pay as you go or move on none of this pay later stuff or donations let's keep the rift-rafts out.

Zzotte

 

[fraluchi]

Unfortunately there are "free loaders" who stick out like black sheep. Experienced hospitaleros usually can identify them. A diplomatic hint for a reasonable "donativo" does help. Personally I have always suggested a minimum amount to be donated. On rare occasions have I been disappointed.

 

[KinkyOne]

I really don't want to sound prejudicial, but especially this year on Levante & Sanabres I saw mostly Spanish walkers paid nothing in donativo albergues. I even got into conversation about that with one of them and he simply said to me that he's paying taxes already and doesn't feel he should pay anything for his sleep in donativo albergues. Vast majority of "foreign" walkers paid at least something as I could noticed...

 

[trevorcc]

A good thread to make one think, but I am disappointed at the finger pointing by some of the replies about certain country XYZ or such, I thought we were all just pilgrims, yes I have noticed those that short changed and felt sad but who am I to blame I do not know their story or how they see the world. Maybe a the old saying " he without sin cast the first stone" should apply or to those that have extra put it in and help, be it an Alburge or someone you meet on your Camino we will all feel much better helping. Oh believe me I am no saint and thats why I walk my Camino.

 

[Thornley]

My 1st ever night on the Camino was (unexpectedly) in a donativo albergue , la Kaserna in StJpdeP., newly opened. I had NO idea how much to give or what was expected so I asked the hospitalero, who had just arrived himself. He was brilliant :" let's say €10 for the bed, €10 for the meal so that'll be €20 and you get breakfast free "
I was very relieved he had been so straightforward and made it so easy.

BUT: and I hate to say this....Some (many!) of the pilgrims weren't happy! I was on duty to translate as neither the hospitalero nor his wife spoke anything but French and none of the pilgrims that night understood French.... LOTS of grumbling about 'this is way too much etc' . But they all paid up as he was -cheerfully- not having it any other way

It didn't mean much at the time for me (rabbit in headlights comes to mind!) but now I can see the larger picture. I think it needs a 'forceful' hospitalero/a to do exactly like he did. (Oh good, more stress for the hospitalero/a/s )

I don't know what the answer is... I'd like to think the people who can afford €10 for a bed will give that , there are many for whom it is a sacrifice, I'm thinking pilgrims from other countries.... I paid €12 or less for a (luxurious) whole house, many times, in Serbia, Bulgaria etc with people collecting the 'rent' for the owners apologising 'you sure you can afford this sort of money?' .... It is an eye-opener.

Even 'poor ' students in the West don't come anywhere close.

As someone who has walked the GR65 many times the hospitalero and his wife would have been well aware that 10e for food and 10e for bed would allow you about 3 places over the 800km from Le Puy. Good on him for sticking to his guns.

I like the way you are greeted @ Miraz on the Norte .
Its donation but you sit with the hospitalero at the desk and the tin is placed in front of you.
People are normally waiting in a queue to get in , its very popular and everybody helps with the cooking etc.
I noticed nothing under 10e being forwarded.
I can also remember the same morning 3 young girls were made to clean the windows.
They had arrived a Miraz @ 9am and indicated they were a few $ short. They were the same girls that woke the town [ dogs barking @ 5am ] when leaving that morning in the town prior . They were told it did not open till 12 and if they were short then a bit of manual labour would suffice.

 

[KinkyOne]

A good thread to make one think, but I am disappointed at the finger pointing by some of the replies about certain country XYZ or such, I thought we were all just pilgrims, yes I have noticed those that short changed and felt sad but who am I to blame I do not know their story or how they see the world. Maybe a the old saying " he without sin cast the first stone" should apply or to those that have extra put it in and help, be it an Alburge or someone you meet on your Camino we will all feel much better helping. Oh believe me I am no saint and that's why I walk my Camino.

Hola, Trevor!

Maybe you should use "reply" or even "+quote" function to be sure to which previous post your response is targeting. But I guess it was mine. All I have to add is that all that I wanted to say was already said.
I agree it was finger-pointing, but that was my experience!!! NOT the speculation! Regardless to their stories I know what I have seen!!! Or if I put that differently - if you're not my family/friend and I don't know your "story" (in full extent) I shouldn't post anything about your behaviour even if very bad etc.???


Ultreia!

 

[selebi51]

the idea of FREE donativos comes from FODORS travel Spain (and probably other guides). I was amazed to read this guide last week and it is the 2015 edition.

 

[trevorcc]

Hola, Trevor!

Maybe you should use "reply" or even "+quote" function to be sure to which previous post your response is targeting. But I guess it was mine. All I have to add is that all that I weanted to say was already said.
I agree it was finger-pointing, but that was my experience!!! NOT the specualation! Regardless to their stories I know what I have seen!!! Or if I put that differently - if you're not my family/friend and I don't know your "story" (in full extent) I shouldn't post anything about your behaviour even if very bad etc.???


Ultreia!

Kinkyone sorry if you were upset, but the point is nobody should judge without knowing the full story that you seemed to have missed, once again sorry to upset you.

 

[Thornley]

Hola, Trevor!

Maybe you should use "reply" or even "+quote" function to be sure to which previous post your response is targeting. But I guess it was mine. All I have to add is that all that I weanted to say was already said.
I agree it was finger-pointing, but that was my experience!!! NOT the specualation! Regardless to their stories I know what I have seen!!! Or if I put that differently - if you're not my family/friend and I don't know your "story" (in full extent) I shouldn't post anything about your behaviour even if very bad etc.???


Ultreia!

They tried the censorship on our papers a few years ago Kinky but she got rolled.
You are correct about the home country being the most abusive about donations , we have also been amazed with the use of cars by same......no guilt whatsoever when noticed.
The 3 kids I mentioned in Miraz came from a Baltic country I won't mention and by the time it came to sleep they were already snoring....it was an early start for them.

 

[peregrina nicole]

I've walked several Caminos and have stayed in some donativo places. I do admire them for keeping up the spirit of the Camino. However, I also think that along with an increase in numbers, particularly on the Frances, the typical peregrino has changed. Camino Bob and I both volunteered in the Oficina del Peregrino in Santiago this August. We both went over to Pilgrim House on separate occasions. When I went, there weren't any pergrinos there. When Camino Bob went, he said that a group of German pergrinos were asking about donativo albergues on the route to Finisterre so they could know where they could stay for free! Camino Bob was horrified as were the Pilgrim House volunteers and they explained that 'donativo' doesn't equal 'free'. I stayed at Miraz last year and appreciated the suggested donation of 8 euros and was happy to pay it. We also stayed at a lovely albergue donativo on the Primitivo. I can't remember the name, but it was run by an ex taxi driver from Madrid. We had a communal vegetarian meal and breakfast. He didn't give guidelines on what to 'donate' so we paid what we would in an albergue privado plus the cost of a typical menu peregrino and breakfast AND a bit more on top of that as we realised that not everyone would pay their cost. It does beggar belief that some people don't realise that sheets cost something, electricity costs something, dinner and breakfast cost something AND that it is an insult to hospitaleros to choose to go to the bar and spend their money on beer and chatting to friends on their smart phone rather than paying for the cost of their stay. I do know that there are impoverished peregrinos out there and that a donativo is a good option for them. These people, however, would ususally be the first to volunteer to do extra tasks to make up for the lack of euros in the pot. I agree that clearer multilingual messaging would be helpful in dispelling the myth that donativo=free. Perhaps something that listed the cost per peregrino might help as well as a statement explaining that these costs are not covered by other sources of funding. I volunteered with Julie who organises volunteers for Guacelmo in Rabanal. She felt that it was important to stick to the idea of keeping it a donativo albergue, but did note that there was increasing pressure from the Confraternity of St James UK branch (who also run Miraz) and hospitaleros to try to recoup the running costs. She noted that many of the hospitaleros were annoyed with 'impoverished' peregrinos who paid a few cents for their stay, but had expensive kit and spent money at the bars and restaurants in Rabanal. She also noted, as has some of the forum members above, that 'modern' peregrinos expect a lot more in terms of basic services. She said that she tried to explain to the hospitaleros that how much people pay as a donativo and how they choose to spend their money elsewhere is up to their individual conscious. She admitted, however, that this was not popular view with those who chose to give up two weeks of their lives to help fellow peregrinos by volunteering as a hospitalero. One of the volunteers I worked with this year in the Oficino, Pepe, has been a hospitalero in a number of donativo albergues. I mentioned the Germans looking for 'free' albergues and he exploded. He said what everyone above has said. Donativo does not equal free. The services that are offered have costs. He noted a family of peregrinos who only left 40 cents. He said that it was a complete insult for the hospitaleros and for the albergue. I asked him about the genuinely poor peregrinos. He said that these people were OK, but that they were easy to spot and usually offered to help out.

 

[Kanga]

When someone thinks an albergues is free, who do they think is paying for it? I get the impression some people think the Spanish government is.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Some think it is a charity freely and willingly given. Little do they know!

 

[Richard stead]

Thank you Laurie for sharing this. Yet another example of what things have sadly come to. Acacio has had the courage to spell things out. I hope all those who see the signs in Granon learn something and start to question this business of "It's your Camino do as you please".

Yes. If you read a Mr Barnards book some about a "ball breaker " he and his son actually boast about leaving either nothing or 2 euros for both of them.

 

[Icacos]

When someone thinks an albergues is free, who do they think is paying for it? I get the impression some people think the Spanish government is.

Some think it is a charity freely and willingly given. Little do they know!

Exactly! I explained all this in my post above although, thankfully for me, I did not get the opportunity to take advantage of this 'charity.' I knew beforehand that 'donativo' did not mean 'free,' but I did not appreciate that it meant 'cover your costs and then some, if you can afford it.' BTW it was while I was on the Camino that I was first exposed to the idea that donativo means 'free' so, as has been mentioned, that notion is out there. People need to be disabused of that notion. A little education is what is needed here.

 

[MaxfromMO]

We always paid two to three times what we would have paid at a private albergue because we KNEW that there were people staying there paying nothing because they weren't actually asked for money. They were very proud of staying at places that were "donativo" because they could have a cheaper "vacation". I thought that attitude was really sad.

 

[Kanga]

Like you, Laurie, I want my charity dollar to go somewhere it is needed. I understand and admire the saints among us but that is not me. There is also the rather murky ethical issue of the harm done by enabling bad behaviour. That's a discussion that needs a bottle or two of Rioja.

 

[thecatalanway]

I think you are very brave to tell this story and I totally agree with you that many people just don't think. The word 'donation' somehow makes them think it's not payment but more of an extra tip. I stayed in two donatiu albergues (and gave between 15 and 40 euros depending on whether I had eaten one meal or two or none) and I noticed that some people only dropped in a few coins. Of course being a 'good pilgrim' I didn't want to judge but I couldn't help noticing at The Albergue Verde where I stayed for two nights with an injury, there were people who ate a full breakfast as well as a delicious vegetarian dinner and stayed the night and they left 5 euros!!! These were not people who couldn't afford it - they just were takers. However, I also think that some people don't understand the system and they need to be given a guideline. People are funny aren't they?

I'm ashamed to admit it but, had I stayed at the one donativo albergue I approached on the Francés [I was 'rejected and ejected,' but that's another story, which I can now laugh about] I would have donated what I now know is a trivial amount...simply because I didn't know, and did not appreciate the significance of it all. To be quite honest, I had so much going through my mind at the time, that I never gave it a thought, other than that it was a charitable organization offering shelter for just that - a donativo - for which shelter I was very grateful. It was only after I returned from my Camino and started really following this forum that I began to appreciate what these donativo albergues offered - a place to stay for pilgrims who could afford to pay, and a place to stay for pilgrims who could not afford to pay.

Obviously, what I needed on the Camino was a slap upside the head to make me appreciate how these donativo albergues actually operate. I'm sure it is not simply a matter of pilgrims not wanting to part with their money. Perhaps, as some members have already posted, some indication could be made of what would be a reasonable donation, and why, so that pilgrims could at least be made aware of what, and of whom, they are taking advantage.

Please don't anyone get on my case and say that I should have known better. Yes, I should have, but the fact is, I didn't.

(BTW, the reason I was rejected and ejected from that donativo albergue is that I 'fessed up to not having carried my pack that day, which is a no-no ... not the 'fessing up ... just the not carrying my pack, but that's another thread.)

 

[Castilian]

When someone thinks an albergues is free, who do they think is paying for it?

The Holy Spirit. Now, seriously, I want to guess many of them don't bother to think about it.

Some think it is a charity freely and willingly given.

Does it mean they consider themselves needed of charity? Would they say in their neighborhood that they are needed of charity?

First, I think it's pretty clear that this is not an education problem.

I disagree. I think it's an education problem. Any educated person should be aware that people must be fairly rewarded for their job.

P.S.: I apologize that I arrived late to this thread and just read the OP and some of the posts.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Thank you for your reflexions Laurie. It got me wondering what your friends who want to open an albergue in Oviedo are thinking about this issue. I hope their project comes to fruition and becomes what they have b'dreamed it can be.

I gave this whole donativo issue a lot of thought this spring on the Primitivo. For starters it was the first time I encountered "suggested donativos", it was alos the first time I saw open, unsupervised refrigerators for pilgrims to help themselves and lay later. San Roman de retorta and San Jan de Villapana come to mind. And these places do make the Camino Primitivo in my opinion: not as many pilgrim masses and "Camino families" but such trust in others.

I for one do not see the suggested donativo as a way to shame people into donating. Same applies to, for those who work in philanthropy/fundraising as I do, always indicating to the donor a level of giving. In the direct marketing campaigns we get in the mail we are given a few suggested amounts. In face to face solicitations you also ask for a specif amount, or end up with a fraction of the donor's potential for this particualr project. I do cringe at talks like the one in Guemes though, where I really feel you are being either guilted into giving an being fed a story to increase your contribution.

As an active volonteer for my alumni association, the clincher to turn me into an active, professional fundraiser, was when it was explained to me what it cost for me to get profressors of the quality of the ones I had. Perhaps a run down of the costs to keep a place open could be an eye opener? Not a solution, but an eye opener.

While walking I was thinking of a possible network of hospitaleros observing behaviour and letting those ahead who might be truly "worthy" of a free bed and meal. In all my walks only twice have I come across people who teuly needed help, but perhaps others hid it well. But I have seen my share on of London based expats in their late 20s types who could drop hundreds a day and not blink walk out without leaving a cent. Where I work now we give bursaries so peiple can study. And there is no doubt we get people fudging numbers in thei applications. Interviews allow us to poke through stories, hence the referral thought I had. Or an "invitation to stay for free" based on a conversation of some sort, or as a reward for chipping in, all at the discretion of the hospitalero. But all this is just mind my racing as I walked.

Ironic that the values that have made the Camino what has attracte so many to walk it is what is now being destroyed by those who are now being attracted to it.

then there is the limited number of pilgrims per year, on fixed dates, pre-payd, etc., like the European Peace awalk or the one around my home town, but that would be such a pity, and change the core of the Camino so much.

The more I think about it tje more I like my idea of a reimbursment if you help, behave or when your attitude clearly shows who you are as a human being.

 

[KinkyOne]

... If the CSJ needs a minimum amount per pilgrim to keep going, they should just collect that amount from everyone and welcome donations.

This would definitely solve the problem from the financial aspect for electricity, water, gas, cleaning etc., but to get enough money for preparing communal meals is another problem.

 

[jpflavin1]

The Holy Spirit. Now, seriously, I want to guess many of them don't bother to think about it.



Does it mean they consider themselves needed of charity? Would they say in their neighborhood that they are needed of charity?



I disagree. I think it's an education problem. Any educated person should be aware that people must be fairly rewarded for their job.

P.S.: I apologize that I arrived late to this thread and just read the OP and some of the posts.

Castillian:

I am not sure I understand your education comment.

Are you saying only an uneducated person would not understand "Donativo". If that is the case, are they educable?

By the time you get to Granon an individual clearly understands what a daily bed, dinner and breakfast cost. Education through a repetitive action. Therefore, it should be clear what "Donativo" actually equates too. They choose to pay nothing because they can.

Someone made the point of a Spanish Peregrino saying he believed he should stay for free because he pays local taxes. If local taxes pay for the Albergue and it's maintenance and upkeep, I am understanding of that point of view but do not agree with it.

That said, my comment is based on my possibly misunderstanding your comment.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[HeidiL]

At three of the refugios on the Camino de Madrid this Easter they refused to accept donativos. At one place, we put money and a note in the mailbox (municipal youth hostel), at two other places, we cleaned everything in sight and made sure we spent some money in the village bars and tried to be friendly company for the people who gave us the keys.

It's going to be very odd walking the Francés again, if we ever do that - so many people...

 

[Thornley]

At three of the refugios on the Camino de Madrid this Easter they refused to accept donativos. At one place, we put money and a note in the mailbox (municipal youth hostel), at two other places, we cleaned everything in sight and made sure we spent some money in the village bars and tried to be friendly company for the people who gave us the keys.

It's going to be very odd walking the Francés again, if we ever do that - so many people...

You will not believe the change in 15 years Heidi.

 

[Jools]

I came across quite a few people camping on the primitivo and they were complaining about still having to pay to camp in the albergue grounds - we are talking about €6 here and they would expect to use all the facilities, showers/kitchen/laundry/wifi and these people had expensive tents/therm arrests/sleeping bags/iPads so couldn't have been that hard up . It's such a greedy mentality I don't understand it, when I stayed in a donativo I paid €20 as it was an amazing place and the meal was fantastic but it's sad that people will try to get away with as little as possible betraying the goodwill of the hospitaleros

 

[Thornley]

I have often asked how much is it in a YHA when travelling Jools to the above people you mention.
When they give the answer i ask is this accommodation better ?
Then i ask the obvious and mention volunteers and are they buying a wine for them from the village store.
They get the message eventually especially if not spanish.

 

[peregrina nicole]

I came across quite a few people camping on the primitivo and they were complaining about still having to pay to camp in the albergue grounds - we are talking about €6 here and they would expect to use all the facilities, showers/kitchen/laundry/wifi and these people had expensive tents/therm arrests/sleeping bags/iPads so couldn't have been that hard up . It's such a greedy mentality I don't understand it, when I stayed in a donativo I paid €20 as it was an amazing place and the meal was fantastic but it's sad that people will try to get away with as little as possible betraying the goodwill of the hospitaleros

We've paid to camp outside of albergues on the Primitivo. We were greatful to be allowed to camp outside of albergues because on the Ingles we were told for 'health and safety reasons' we wouldn't be allowed to do so. We were happy to pay a fee to camp as we were allowed to use the kitchen/dining room, laundry facilities, water and the bathroom. It is a amazing that people think that they can use facilities at an albergue for free. They wouldn't be allowed to stay at a campgroud for free. At the Albergue del Fin de Camino, where I volunteered as a hosptialera, we didn't allow people do camp, but we did have a separate fee for people who wanted to shower and wash clothes, but not sleep.

When people ask me what my favorite route is, I say the Frances in 2008.

 

[jbear]

Something that I would suggest to the hospitalaros, is to add a suggested donation amount. Then for those paying less, offer the option of doing chores to offset the lack of funds. Not everyone who is low on cash is a freeloader. Even people who have money sometimes have trouble accessing it. On the flip side, sometimes people with money are freeloaders, this would address both sorts.

Add to that, language/cultural issues that can cause people to think donativo=free. If you spell it out I think things will improve. I'm not saying it will be a perfect solution, but I believe it will help a lot.

 

[Castilian]

Some more comments now that I read all the posts of the thread.

(as an aside:
one option for anyone who has experienced a similiar situation (and finds out afterwards), would be perhaps tucking sufficient euro notes in an envelope and addressing to that albergue you/they stayed and did not know about the 'donativo system'.

I think that to send money on an envelope through the postal service is forbidden in Spain. An alternative might be a money order: www.correos.es/ss/Satellite/site/servicio-giro_nacional-envio_dinero_servicios_financieros/detalle_servicio-sidioma=es_ES?idiomaWeb=en_GB

I even got into conversation about that with one of them and he simply said to me that he's paying taxes already and doesn't feel he should pay anything for his sleep in donativo albergues.

That would be really hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

Are you saying only an uneducated person would not understand "Donativo".

To understand the meaning of donativo isn't education but knowledge. Someone may have world's greatest knowledge but be rude, selfish, haughty...; i.e.: uneducated.

You may ignore the meaning of donativo, you may be unable to ask about it (and about how they make the system work) but, IMHO, any educated person will appreciate the work made by the hospitalero(s) (or hospitalera-s-) and the services provided and reward him/her/them in some fair way. In an albergue you are face to face with the staff so you know who to reward and you don't have to go through any nightmare to make it so there's no room for not rewarding unless you lack of education.

 

[Saramago]

Interesting. I just finished hospitalero training with APOC in North Carolina (begin date Aug 28th). Our leaders just left their service in Granon in August and told our group there was always more than enough money. I wonder what could have happened in a couple of weeks to change this situation.

 

[Griffin57]

It's 2 years since I was at Granon, I will be there again in a few weeks. If I remember rightly the place to make your donation was an open basket/bowl and next to it was a sign saying that if you have need please take what you need??
I will be interested to see if there is still an open basket or other such container when I am there in the near future.

 

[Saramago]

It's 2 years since I was at Granon, I will be there again in a few weeks. If I remember rightly the place to make your donation was an open basket/bowl and next to it was a sign saying that if you have need please take what you need??
I will be interested to see if there is still an open basket or other such container when I am there in the near future.

I was told there is the open container. Extra money was deposited in an account. There was more than enough. It looks like a hospitalero leadership fail to me.

 

[Griffin57]

I was told there is the open container. Extra money was deposited in an account. There was more than enough. It looks like a hospitalero leadership fail to me.

 

[Thornley]

I was told there is the open container. Extra money was deposited in an account. There was more than enough. It looks like a hospitalero leadership fail to me.

You are a hard woman Sara ....................lol

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I was told there is the open container. Extra money was deposited in an account. There was more than enough. It looks like a hospitalero leadership fail to me.

I'm curious, when you do the hospitalero course, do they teach you how to make sure money comes in? Clearly these hospitaleros were frustrated, but perhaps they had a rather difficult group,the night before who believe that they pay taxes so life on the Camino should be free, or what have you. But other than the schpeel you get in places like Guemes, are hospitaleros trained for this? I recall a very unpleasant incident in Sto Domingo, being bullied by the hospitaleros as we came in, telling us how things were to be, barking out orders, and then implying we were going to be cheapskates and they were martyrs or just about. Talk about encouraging pilgrims to misbehave . Never had I encountered such behaviour, and never since either, thank heavens.

 

[Saramago]

I'm curious, when you do the hospitalero course, do they teach you how to make sure money comes in? Clearly these hospitaleros were frustrated, but perhaps they had a rather difficult group,the night before who believe that they pay taxes so life on the Camino should be free, or what have you. But other than the schpeel you get in places like Guemes, are hospitaleros trained for this? I recall a very unpleasant incident in Sto Domingo, being billied by the hospitaleros as we came in, telling us how things were to be, barking out orders, and then implying we were going to be cheapskates and they were martyrs or just about. Talk about encouraging pilgrims to misbehave . Never had I encountered such behaviour, and never since either, thank heavens.

There was no need in this couple's case to ask for money at Granon. But it can be suggested certainly. It can be overwhelming to cook for 60, and I can only guess this was the circumstance for why the note was put on the door. If you are serving with love, people give. There is a contact for hospititeros in Granon. After doing all the shopping, this couple deposited extra funds from the donative box into a bank account the contact person for Granon gave them. There was plenty of money. That is why I'm suspecting the new hospitaleros might have not been up to the task. I can think of no other reason why in two weeks they would have no money. It doesn't make sense to me in any other way. For all the talk about pilgrims thinking donatives are free - I'm sure they don't and actually take in more being a donative. If an albergue asks me for 10 Euro, I'll pay 10 Euro. If it's donative, I'd pay more most likely. I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed (just a guess). Our trainers had just served 15 days at Granon before departing to the states. But with having a designated banking account for extra cash, I can't envision a shortage so soon.

 

[Thornley]

There was no need in this couple's case to ask for money at Granon. But it can be suggested certainly. It can be overwhelming to cook for 60, and I can only guess this was the circumstance for why the note was put on the door. If you are serving with love, people give. There is a contact for hospititeros in Granon. After doing all the shopping, this couple deposited extra funds from the donative box into a bank account the contact person for Granon gave them. There was plenty of money. That is why I'm suspecting the new hospitaleros might have not been up to the task. I can think of no other reason why in two weeks they would have no money. It doesn't make sense to me in any other way. For all the talk about pilgrims thinking donatives are free - I'm sure they don't and actually take in more being a donative. If an albergue asks me for 10 Euro, I'll pay 10 Euro. If it's donative, I'd pay more most likely. I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed (just a guess). Our trainers had just served 15 days at Granon before departing to the states. But with having a designated banking account for extra cash, I can't envision a shortage so soon.

I love your comments Sara but if people are giving their hours , accommodation and also providing meals then i think they as a group can RECOMMEND what they like.

Lets be honest here and i don't need bleeding hearts.
A YHA is 20 euros a bed in a dorm
No Food , don' ask , get your own,
And we worry about requesting a few dollars to HELP for future pilgrims when requesting.

The people on this site who have walked , especially people like Sara and Heidi will give always as well as help but i know as everyone else does that the WAY is full of free loaders.
This will have few saying the opposite , but please
If you have not been there don't comment.

 

[Kanga]

I can only guess this was the circumstance for why the note was put on the door. ... I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed (just a guess).

Exactly. You are guessing.

 

[Thornley]

There was no need in this couple's case to ask for money at Granon. But it can be suggested certainly. It can be overwhelming to cook for 60, and I can only guess this was the circumstance for why the note was put on the door. If you are serving with love, people give. There is a contact for hospititeros in Granon. After doing all the shopping, this couple deposited extra funds from the donative box into a bank account the contact person for Granon gave them. There was plenty of money. That is why I'm suspecting the new hospitaleros might have not been up to the task. I can think of no other reason why in two weeks they would have no money. It doesn't make sense to me in any other way. For all the talk about pilgrims thinking donatives are free - I'm sure they don't and actually take in more being a donative. If an albergue asks me for 10 Euro, I'll pay 10 Euro. If it's donative, I'd pay more most likely. I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed (just a guess). Our trainers had just served 15 days at Granon before departing to the states. But with having a designated banking account for extra cash, I can't envision a shortage so soon.

As a hack @ 68 Yrs Sara i learnt 40 years ago in business / life ,to never assume
or presume.
My kids remind me of this too much .............but its for the better.

 

[TerryB]

There was no need in this couple's case to ask for money at Granon. . . . . . . . . . . . . ...
For all the talk about pilgrims thinking donatives are free - I'm sure they don't and actually take in more being a donative. If an albergue asks me for 10 Euro, I'll pay 10 Euro. If it's donative, I'd pay more most likely. I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed (just a guess). Our trainers had just served 15 days at Granon before departing to the states. But with having a designated banking account for extra cash, I can't envision a shortage so soon.

"There was no need in this couple's case to ask for money at Granon"
How do you know? Were you there at the time of the incident?

"For all the talk about pilgrims thinking donatives are free - I'm sure they don't "
Sorry - but I have heard it said on the Camino. (referring to the A1 donativo in Bodenaya)

"I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed . . . ."
They may well have been! It is one job that I could never do - too short a fuse

As my father would have said many years ago - "Some people are well educated but they are still ignorant!"

Blessings on all hospitaleros
Tio Tel

 

[peregrina2000]

I am surprised at the turn some of these comments have taken. Do people really think that the heart of this very widespread problem lies with the hospitaleros? The hospitaleros at donativo albergues are volunteers. Sure there may be a crank or two or an occasional leadership problem or a lack of loving spirit, but I think we all know that the real problem here is a huge increase in the freeloader-pilgrim. Sounds like blaming the victim to me.

 

[grayland]

Since none of us were there...unless the actual hospitaleros are on the forum..
speculating as to the motives or reasons for the sign are of no useful purpose.

It may be that this thread has been diverted onto an argumentive path that leads to closure of the thread.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Sounds like blaming the victim to me.

I see little of that, but you may be right. I think it is OK to criticize hospitaleros! Granon has been around a long time. I doubt that experienced hospitaleros would have reacted with the sign; I doubt that "management" would have approved of the sign. Pilgrims can be freeloaders, which is why I regularly suggest that donativos go away! Set a price, then be charitable when necessary. Particularly if it was a one day crisis, it was more likely panic than necessity. That is not blaming the hospitaleros for the pilgrims who are cheapskates; it is criticizing hospitaleros for not maintaining calm.

 

[peregrina2000]

Methinks this discussion has run its course. My point in posting it was to do the same thing that the hospitaleros wanted to do -- call attention to a big problem. It has served its purpose and I don't see the purpose in devolving into these little quibbles. Buen camino, Laurie