A Camino Race - Really

[MichaelB10398]

The commercialization of sacred places is a problem, in my humble opinion. The destruction of a sacred place does not happen all at once, but by very small steps or uses of the place that abuse (too strong a word, but it is all I could think of at the moment) its sanctity. It is not abused simply by large numbers as long as the overall purpose of the place is maintained. In this instance of the Camino, it is not that it is a public race of five people or 500 people, it is an abuse of a path that has been used for over a 1,000 years for a purpose of pilgrimage.

I don't find it sad that some voice their opinion publically. I hope that it at least makes people think about what is and is not appropriate. I hope that sacred places throughout the world - Christian and non-Christian alike - are maintained, respected, and valued. I don't see any value in degrading them by conciously ignoring their purpose.

I understand how it would be easy to have a race on a path that is already in use, but I wonder if there are not hundreds of other places that would be just as easy to use?

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I find myself agreeing with all sides of this coin, finding merit in most of the opinions! However, it does sound like many of us are treating the Camino as if we "own" the route. This reminds me somewhat of the same disdain many of us project toward the tour groups of organized walkers, who we feel "hog" much of the lodging options and bottleneck the trail at times...just an observation, I'm not being critical. For me, I'm just glad I'm not walking the Frances route on June 18-24!

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I'm hoping i can just garner enough/plenty of signatures and send them all in at one time but i'll find out. Seems like it will have more impact that way?

Done!

 

[nycwalking]

Signature, no, because all can walk camino. However, I still dislike idea. Growing up in Los Angeles, living in both NYC and LA as an adult, I look for sacred spaces: the chapel behind altar at St. Patrick's cathedral on 5TH avenue the one place in cathedral where no pics and talking is allowed, a quiet spot on Venice beach, the camino, and so on. Our world is so commercial trying to carve out a sacred moment is becoming a challenge. Climbimg Mt. Everest, has become a tourist trap, Ganges is polluted, and now the camino. No, this race will not impact pilgrims walking simutaneously. Yes, all are pilgrims even these racers. My point of contention: the monetary race continues to strip away just moments to be, to breathe, to slow down.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I find myself agreeing with all sides of this coin, finding merit in most of the opinions! However, it does sound like many of us are treating the Camino as if we "own" the route. This reminds me somewhat of the same disdain many of us project toward the tour groups of organized walkers, who we feel "hog" much of the lodging options and bottleneck the trail at times...just an observation, I'm not being critical. For me, I'm just glad I'm not walking the Frances route on June 18-24!

It's not a matter lf feeling ownership, but rather respect for a route that is nearly 1000 years old and for those who built it, walked it, allowed part of theor land to be used for a pilgrimage and for those today "who come to the tomb of the Apostle for religious and/or spiritual reasons", those who "Make the pilgrimage for religious or spiritual reasons, or at least an attitude of search".

I for one am more angry at the Cathedral giving credenciales for this than at a group of people doing this for PR, fun and money. I expect more from the religious authorities who set rules I obey and now disregard them for this event. The organisers and participants are just probably cluless about anything that has to do with the history and sanctity of these routes.

 

[Mike Trebert]

The organisers will be counting on the devotional pilgrim to be accommodating. For every other cheek turned, there's a money-changer. Sad, but in today's world, true.

 

[Ian and Helen Miller]

Need all pilgrims to please send emails of protest to CORREO@COE.ES This needs to be shut down

I am opposed to this, we d0 not own the Camino, God does and he works in many ways that are unknown us. He is the Master painter and only he knows what the picture is to look like. I know some people will not agree with me and that's ok, I just feel that protesting this planned event could be harmful to the Camino in may ways.

 

[Deleted member 61803]

The fact is for whatever reasons they have decided on this route. In a country whose economy was devastated by the financial collapse, where public spending has been decimated, there is not a lot of public funding for sports and the like. So when their Olympic Committee chose this route for their 100 runners I can only think it would raise the public interest in their plight and encourage folks to help in other more beneficial fundraising ways.

To state that this camino route in total is a sacred place is to not understand that the Camino is not tied into one geographical set of roads/paths. We are not allowed to discuss the religious dimensions in this forum but I will state that the land is NOT part of that dimension.

Ban this and you will get people who want a ban the non religious walkers, the , beer swilling walkers, or those who bus stages, or have their luggage transported. The whole thing is a can of worms.

 

[Deleted member 56069]

Well, it is only 6 days out of a possible 365 days of walking, so not like something we will have to deal with all year. Fortunately we are blessed with many alternative pilgrimage routes. Not getting too worked up about this quite frankly. Cyclists that treat the Camino as their personal off road race track are a bigger concern and we have to deal with them year round.
As an annual 'guest' in their country I would no more tell them how to run their country than having them tell me how to run mine.
All this said, the event is in poor taste, but truly not the end of the world.

 

[Mike Trebert]

Well, it is only 6 days out of a possible 365 days of walking, so not like something we will have to deal with all year. Fortunately we are blessed with many alternative pilgrimage routes. Not getting too worked up about this quite frankly. Cyclists that treat the Camino as their personal off road race track are a bigger concern and we have to deal with them year round.
As an annual 'guest' in their country I would no more tell them how to run their country than having them tell me how to run mine.
All this said, the event is in poor taste, but truly not the end of the world.

There's now. And there's also a future full of consequences.

 

[m108]

the organizer is a private travel agency, which has managed to get sponsors
whether the agency runners (pilgrim - runners hahaha) equipped with bells that rang us to quickly be out of the way?
This "instant pilgrimage" is somehow not compatible (definition of pilgrim /pilgrimage with "running / quickly). Race hahahaha

 

[Davie Blisters]

Is it also 1st April in Spain on Saturday???

 

[notion900]

Maybe we could all spread out four abreast across the path chatting and being utterly maddening for people faster than us, oh wait, we already do that

 

[grayland]

It's been done:

https://jennyjourney.wordpress.com/

I ran into a similar race in about 2012 while walking the LePuy route in France.
I do not recall the sponsoring group but the relay race was from near LePuy to Santiago.
It really did not interfere with walking as the runners were not bunched up and just occasionally one would come by. I believe we saw a few runners each day over a two day period.
One benefit to pilgrims was that a few watering/refreshment points were set up in vans offering water, coffee, tea, and other treats. These were in remote areas in the often very long distances between water and bars on the LePuy. There were few pilgrims walking and all were welcomed and served in the "race" water points.
No one expressed any resentment that I know of. It was very low key.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

This isn't just about what effect this race has on us, individually. It's about a supposedly cultural non-profit (the Olympic committee) using a sacred pathway as a promotional gimmick and fund-raiser. It is in very poor taste, and it's an abuse of Spain's cultural patrimony.
It's up to us, the people who give a damn, to speak up when we see something we love being pimped this way. We don't need to just lie back and let it go on. If we say nothing, the circus will be bigger next year.

A possible text in Spanish: El camino es un lugar sagrado, no es apropiado usarlo como un estadio deportivo, 0 una promoción para hacer dinero oportunistas. Su "carrera de camino" es una ofensa a la cultura española, el espíritu olímpico y el buen gusto. Por favor, tome su carrera en otro lugar.

 

[m108]

This isn't just about what effect this race has on us, individually. It's about a supposedly cultural non-profit (the Olympic committee) using a sacred pathway as a promotional gimmick and fund-raiser. It is in very poor taste, and it's an abuse of Spain's cultural patrimony.
It's up to us, the people who give a damn, to speak up when we see something we love being pimped this way. We don't need to just lie back and let it go on. If we say nothing, the circus will be bigger next year.

A possible text in Spanish: El camino es un lugar sagrado, no es apropiado usarlo como un estadio deportivo, 0 una promoción para hacer dinero oportunistas. Su "carrera de camino" es una ofensa a la cultura española, el espíritu olímpico y el buen gusto. Por favor, tome su carrera en otro lugar.

Yes, yes, yes and yes (I did not dare write "abuse", but I thought exactly that).

 

[cher99840]

I walk. It allows me to live in the present. It allows me to strip my life down to the basics of food and shelter and self awareness. Being in the present means I concern myself with my needs and the needs of others who enter into my present, and invite my concern. What others do, how and why they walk, run, ride----I don't care. What they are issued at the end of their journey, and by whom, I don't care.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

When they want to do this,let them.
Who cares , not me.

Wish you well,Peter.

 

[m108]

Let there be no misunderstanding. Pilgrims who feel that would run, it is their way of moving that suits them - with that is nothing wrong (considerate to other pilgrims) . However, this does not need a travel agency and even less race.

 

[SYates]

... If we say nothing, the circus will be bigger next year....

Sadly, I think you are spot on with this observation
Buen Camino, SY

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Great idea heading over to FB soon..

 

[grayland]

Be very careful not to use the name of the Forum in your protests outside or posts in other media.
Members are not authorized to express any opinion as coming from the Forum.

Thanks for understanding

 

[AbbyDee]

Seems like a strange choice of a location for a "run".

Never really thought of the Camino as a race track.

Well, when you consider the many. many times we have tried to ingrain in people that the Camino (in its many forms) is NOT a race, this is particularly ironic.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Since it involves the OC, perhaps,they will,be testing new performance enhancing drugs?

LOLOL too funny

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Be very careful not to use the name of the Forum in your protests outside or posts in other media.
Members are not authorized to express any opinion as coming from the Forum.

Thanks for understanding

Makes total sense..thanks for the reminder

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Maybe we could all spread out four abreast across the path chatting and being utterly maddening for people faster than us, oh wait, we already do that

I'm in tears here.

 

[SYates]

I just shared it on FB using the direct link to the article on the caminotraveler website and the petition itself, the forums reputation is safe ;-) BC SY

 

[tillyjones]

Wow! I really truly cannot believe that you are so concerned about approx 100 athletes on the Camino in their own country , on their own public paths and roads, that has so many thousand visitors on it yearly. I personally find that very sad. Clearly I will not be visiting that page.

Couldn't agree more. I find this whole movement very un-Camino. From my own perspective, I think that an adventure race that promotes physical activity and highlights this wonderful cultural phenomena is fantastic.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

The organisers will be counting on the devotional pilgrim to be accommodating. For every other cheek turned, there's a money-changer. Sad, but in today's world, true.

I seriously doubt as the olympic committee has considered the pilgrims point of view at all. There are plenty of venues where they could at least ask or take a poll to see if this race is really for the greater good as in keeping with the olympic spirit instead of "how much free PR can we get", ... how much can we make on this... etc. No it's like they decided to have this race period. So we're gonna have it. They'll have to make allotments for us. Did they even bother to research the races impact on this revered trail... i think you already know that answer.

 

[Jan_89]

This is joke, right? The worst idea ever! The organisers should walk El Camino and find out the real meaning.. Signed!

Sure, everyone can run or whatever, but what about the feeling at the end? HURRAY! I'm number one! That was the point of my journey! .. Funny!

Maybe I sound crazy for someone, but this is my opinion and I absolutely don't agree with this plan..

And one more thing - it should be in my time of El Camino, which scares me even more..

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Y

Well, I for one would like to know why I must walk the last 100km to earn a Compostela and these people get it for running 10km on that stretch? Is the criteria now for the Cathedral issuing a Compostela now based on how much one pays? (Sign up fee for the event is 600€, and includes hotels, a Compostela & Pilgrim Mass no less!)

Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during the Cathedral/Pilgrim Office meeting when this deal was negociated.

Nevermind a petition, I'm going to incite a new reformation.

you go Johnnie, a new reformation... long overdue!!

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

I just shared it on FB using the direct link to the article on the caminotraveler website and the petition itself, the forums reputation is safe ;-) BC SY

WTG ! Thanks for the help.

 

[SYates]

"for the greater good"...

I always cringe if I see this expression! BC SY

 

[domigee]

Lol, I really feel tempted to register and then to just walk 'my stage' really, really slowly, stopping at every corner to smell the roses and every church/chapel for a prayer ;-) BC SY

@SYates , shame on you!


Ps: shall we all do this?

 

[wayfarer]

One thread is sufficient to cover this topic, I have merged the threads.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Total

I always cringe if I see this expression! BC SY

total bummer man...this has been my mantra since the late sixties... i'm paranoid now... guess I'll have to find another for the greater good that is.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I ran into a similar race in about 2012 while walking the LePuy route in France.
I do not recall the sponsoring group but the relay race was from near LePuy to Santiago.
It really did not interfere with walking as the runners were not bunched up and just occasionally one would come by. I believe we saw a few runners each day over a two day period.
One benefit to pilgrims was that a few watering/refreshment points were set up in vans offering water, coffee, tea, and other treats. These were in remote areas in the often very long distances between water and bars on the LePuy. There were few pilgrims walking and all were welcomed and served in the "race" water points.
No one expressed any resentment that I know of. It was very low key.

That sounds really nice. However, in the USA, when I was walking a path that had a weekend run fundraiser going on (which I was not a part of) where I was not offered a bottle of their water in kindness, which was ok, cuz I did not pay to participate. It happened twice, but I think I would have left with a better feeling if I'd been offered "a cup of cold water" as the bible mentions.

 

[SYates]

Lol, I wasn't criticizing you at all! Please don't take it personally. Perhaps it just reminded me of the old Startrek theme of 'the needs of the many outweighs the need of the few' (Going seriously off topic here, sorry!) with which I never could agree. Oops, sorry again for the philosophical detour. But I do feel inclined to continue ...
The greater good - Is it greater for one person, greater for many persons, what is the greater good and who can weight what is greater for whom and for how many? Just food for thought ...

BC SY

 

[SYates]

Regarding 'running pilgrims' and another hospitalera story:

The albergue I was serving in was the parish one in Bercianos. Back in 2000 or 2001, sorry, don't really remember the exact year. Some biking pilgrims arrived and 'warned' me that a pilgrim on foot would be, most likely, arriving later that eve. A crazy one, a running one, one that ate kilometers, one that did at least 50+km/day.
I admit that I sighed, shook my head at his craziness and put an extra plate on the table.
Just as soup was served he turned up, exhausted. He didn't say much. He excused himself from pilgrims prayer/meditating the sunset from the top of the bodegas. He still had to shower and wash his clothes.
After I finished with preparing the breakfast for the next day (and cleaning the kitchen etc) I 'caught' him on the bench before the house. After a while sitting silently beside each other he told me his story.

He and his twin sister had dreamed to do the Camino together.
Then she was diagnosed with terminal cancer.
She asked him to do the Camino for the two of them.
He wanted to finish the Camino and go home before she died.
That was the reason he 'run' each day 50+km.

That evening I made a promise to myself - Never again to judge a pilgrim on how s/he does the Camino. I hope I kept this promise - mostly ...

BC SY

 

[dougfitz]

There will certainly be a lot of TV coverage - the goal of the whole thing would be to stir up as much publicity as possible to firmly establish the event. TV coverage means hundreds of crew, trucks, support, along each stage (remember, each stage is over 100kms long). Cameras also following the runners along the Camino, maybe on motorcycles like the Tour De France. Expect the intrusive worst. It's not going to be a nice fluffy tippy-toeing mobile knitting

My experience with endurance events (running and walking) is completely different. There isn't the Tour de France television blanket coverage, rather there is much more targeted news gathering such as at the start of events and at control centres, and rarely any capture of the event itself. Even when we have Olympic level athletes competing, media interest only lifts slightly. I certainly cannot see the scenario you suggest playing out in reality.

 

[domigee]

Oh... Thanks for this posting. I'll remember it each time I am tempted to 'judge'

 

[Luka]

Let there be no misunderstanding. Pilgrims who feel that would run, it is their way of moving that suits them - with that is nothing wrong (considerate to other pilgrims) . However, this does not need a travel agency and even less race.

This.

Of course, chacun son chemin. But these guys are imposing their way on others. By making an event of this. With sponsors, camera's and cultural events in the evening. It is a race. So the fastest team wins. And we know there are a lot of paths on the camino where it is hard to overtake one another. Wonder how polite those 'corregrinos' will be...

And I may not be a Spanish citizen, I am a pilgrim. And I would always help to protect the spirit of the camino.

 

[JulieandPeter]

All I ask, is that we are kind to the runners. We don't know why they are running whether they are part of the race or not.

 

[Mark Lee]

Although I doubt it will effect the average pilgrim on the Camino very much, it definitely does have a bit of a repulsive edge to it, and no doubt just another method to profit from the Camino. I'm not surprised, though. After seeing jugglers and acrobats and a pink elephant (no, I wasn't drunk) in the plaza and around the cathedral in SDC the last time I was there. You have to just accept people will be people.
You would never see a competitive race made of the Hajj, Shikoku 88 or say one of the various Hindu pilgrimages.

 

[AbbyDee]

Let there be no misunderstanding. Pilgrims who feel that would run, it is their way of moving that suits them - with that is nothing wrong (considerate to other pilgrims) . However, this does not need a travel agency and even less race.

The horse has long since fled that barn.

There are already travel agencies and tour groups on the Camino de Santiago as one can see by the advertising, Even the distinguished National Geographic offers a "Camino Experience":

http://www.nationalgeographicexpeditions.com/expeditions/spain-walking-el-camino/detail

Where for a mere $5,995 USD you can walk the Camino from Pamplona to Santiago de Compostela (air fare not included.)

As much as this race is not my proverbial cup of tea, I don't think it is really going to bother anyone. Who knows? It might inspire some of the sponsors to set people working to clear up some of the trash and soiled bits of tissue that abound.

 

[Mike Trebert]

The Tour De France telecast each year is the world's most colossal TV commercial. 21 days, 4+ hours per day. I and millions of others watch it for the wonderful pictures of the gorgeous French countryside. France is the world's most popular tourist destination. I wonder if someone is dreaming of turning hours of video of The Camino, daily for a week, into catnip for tourists. We all know it would work like a charm.

Also, I have no idea what the detailed plan is, but: 800 kms in 6 days is 130 kms per day. I doubt a single runner might be able to run a full marathon of 27 kms every day for 6 days, but let's assume so for a second. You'd have to have quite a few teams to make the pictures interesting - let's say 10 teams so there are 10 runners out there at any given time. 5 stages every day is about 26 kms each. So that's 50 runners per day if they all run every day - so probably 100 runners running 26 kms each every second day for 6 days. That's 100 runners and their trainers, support vehicles, food, administrators, hangers-on. Then there's the gang who's recording and/or broadcasting it, and all their road/trail vehicles, drones, cameras, technicians, food. And a bunch of journalists. And a bunch of cops traffic cops and government officials. And accommodation for everybody which would normally be used by pilgrims.

The whole circus will probably pass by any one spot on the Camino in about half an hour, I suppose.

Whatever the size and logistics of the whole thing, we won't actually know until it's already happening. However big it all is, it will get bigger, otherwise it's a financial failure.

I'm guessing all of the above, but it doesn't sound an unreasonable set of assumptions. Even if it isn't broadcast, it will be shown on it's own YouTube channel. Video is necessary these days or you don't exist.

Runners not picturesque enough for you? What if it starts as a run and after year or two it becomes runners AND bicycles? Am I terminally cynical and paranoid or is it: Where there's money there's fire.

What do you think, @dougfitz?

 

[nycwalking]

Some days you awaken to an awareness of self and the things we love. This thread is forcing me to get active. If I wish camino to remain sacred, a pilgrimage, blossom spiritually, a place for others to find solace, then I must: read Hospitalero newsletter from Asociaciones de Camino de Santiago, sitting unread in Yahoo inbox for several weeks, I must join APOC, CSJ, (with whom I also volunteered), I must get on camino action side of the aisle. And, I must make myself accountable to do said things by posting this missive. To race, or bike, or walk is not such a big deal. But, the spirit of said ventures is. I must get active.

 

[trecile]

No one can take away your spirit

 

[tillyjones]

I can't understand what the problem is. How is it different than any of the other great variety of people who are out there? One could argue that a film crew making a documentary shouldn't be there. Or a class of school kids who aren't 'appreciating the experience' shouldn't be there. Or any other types of people and activities. Most people commenting here seem to be forgetting that this is a public pathway. We haven't all purchased a private membership for an elitist private course. It is there for people to use and certainly Spanish people have far more a right to it than do we. We should all be grateful for the opportunity they provide to us. No-one ever declared it reserved for only certain people (in which case, what would the criteria be?? - I surely wouldn't pass the test). People also seem to be forgetting that a handful of pilgrims will probably, at a maximum, see any relevant goings on for a grand total of 5 minutes a day, for 6 days. Big deal. Perhaps the more healthy response than 'protesting' would be to embrace another showing of Spanish culture along the Way. Shall we also protest a parade that interrupts our Camino? I keep thinking, as a multiple Boston Marathon finisher (which is equally sacred and spiritual to me), how strange it would be for me to protest anyone doing anything else along the Boston Marathon route. But that's just me. And now I clearly need to 'unwatch' this thread as its driving me crazy!

 

[trecile]

I can't understand what the problem is. How is it different than any of the other great variety of people who are out there? One could argue that a film crew making a documentary shouldn't be there. Or a class of school kids who aren't 'appreciating the experience' shouldn't be there. Or any other types of people and activities. Most people commenting here seem to be forgetting that this is a public pathway. We haven't all purchased a private membership for an elitist private course. It is there for people to use and certainly Spanish people have far more a right to it than do we. We should all be grateful for the opportunity they provide to us. No-one ever declared it reserved for only certain people (in which case, what would the criteria be?? - I surely wouldn't pass the test). People also seem to be forgetting that a handful of pilgrims will probably, at a maximum, see any relevant goings on for a grand total of 5 minutes a day, for 6 days. Big deal. Perhaps the more healthy response than 'protesting' would be to embrace another showing of Spanish culture along the Way. Shall we also protest a parade that interrupts our Camino? I keep thinking, as a multiple Boston Marathon finisher (which is equally sacred and spiritual to me), how strange it would be for me to protest anyone doing anything else along the Boston Marathon route. But that's just me. And now I clearly need to 'unwatch' this thread as its driving me crazy!

Well said.

 

[Kathar1na]

Also, I have no idea what the detailed plan is, but: 800 kms in 6 days is 130 kms per day. I doubt a single runner might be able to run a full marathon of 27 kms every day for 6 days, but let's assume so for a second.

The website explains the organiser's concept actually quite well. It's a relay race. On most days, each runner does not even run 20 km; the runner's daily average over the 6 days is much lower (it's stated somewhere on the website). For the first day, the "hand over" stops are shown in the list below. The list illustrates, btw, that the Sacred Path is a very worldly path, as anyone knows who has walked it. Most of the stops are in towns or villages, in populated areas, where cars (or tractors) drive around. You can drive to each of these stops by car. And no, the teams don't stay in albergues.

Roncesvalles Tramo 1
A colegiata de santa maria
B bizcarreta ( plaza del pueblo )
bizcarreta Tramo 2
B bizcarreta ( plaza del pueblo )
C puente de los bandidos , larrasoaña
Larrasoaña Tramo 3
C puente de los bandidos , larrasoaña
D ayuntamiento de pamplona
Pamplona Tramo 4
D ayuntamiento de pamplona
E la posada de ardogui
zariquiegui Tramo 5
E la posada de ardogui
F puente la reina
puente la reina Tramo 6
F puente la reina, entrada del puente
G albergue de villatuerta
villatuerta Tramo 7
G albergue de villatuerta
H albergue hogar de monjardin
villamayor de monjardin Tramo 8
H albergue hogar de monjardin
I igleisa de santa maria
los arcos Tramo 9
I igleisa de santa maria
J plaza de los fuertos
viana Tramo 10
J plaza de los fuertos
K concatedral santa maria la redonda

 

[dougfitz]

What do you think, @dougfitz?

From my reading of the promotion site, this is a relay for 10 teams. So no more than 10 participants on the road at any one time. The longest individual leg seems to be 20 km, shortest 6 km, but on average about 13 km. Never a marathon. So one might expect to see the 10 support crews on average every 13 km, probably in or close to a convenient town or village.

Walkers and runners spread out quickly - unlike the peloton in road cycling races - so I would expect that it might take a little time for participants to pass any particular spot as the field will spread out. The press will find that pretty uninteresting - video footage of a sole walker not apparently competing with anyone just doesn't maintain viewer interest in the same way as competitive cycle racing does.

A lot of the event will take place at night if it is run as a walk. At about 130km/day, teams will need to be averaging about 5.5 km/hr to achieve the distance in 24 hours. I suspect that most teams will walk continuously, with team members walking their leg and then heading off somewhere to recover and rest before being shuttled to their next start point. This will probably look like a lot of movement, but teams will work up a system that works.

It is possible that there might be daily start points as a control, so there might be some point at which all teams have arrived early in the morning, and are able to rest as a team, but I think most would be expecting to work throughout the day and night for the duration of the event.

Support crews don't have to be large for runners and walkers, who don't have the challenge of keeping a bicycle in peak condition. I wouldn't expect they would need more than a small bus for the other walkers and their gear and another vehicle as a runabout. They might choose to use more vehicles, but I cannot see why right now if they can get the shuttling of walkers through their walk, recover and rest pattern working well. Much depends on how much support the crews will offer, particularly in the areas of team catering and medical support. I would expect there to be a catering element of the team to cope with the need to feed walkers throughout the day, and possibly each team will have a physio or trainer to help walkers recover when they have finished a leg.

There is likely to be an official media crew collecting video and audio of the event, but I equally wouldn't expect that to be large. And you might expect that it won't include motorcycle mounted TV cameramen with large ENG cameras. You might also expect some local television news coverage in the areas through which the event is travelling on any particular day.

I really cannot see a compelling argument for this not to go ahead. That is not to say that I don't think is a bit tasteless, but I am not just not convinced by the arguments that I have seen so far.

 

[OTH86]

I will be back on the Camino during the time of the race, and will try to time a rest day off-Camino at the point they pass me.
Buen Camino a todos ~
Terry

 

[long trails]

I'm with our Aboriginal people's philosophy - saying a place is "owned" by people is like saying that a dog is "owned" by the fleas on its back.

The Camino, those parts that are on Spanish land, belong to Spain. If the Govt can make some money out of it then good for them, after all, as a country with massive debts, they sure could do with the extra funds.

 

[kelleymac]

Just sent off my first protest letter. Please join in.

I wrote in protest just now.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

The issue is not that one cannot run as a pilgrim on the Way in the spirit of the Camino. The issue is that of a formal race being conducted on the Camino, who's sole purpose is for racing and the publicity and commercialization that it will garner; and then trying to use the aura of "pilgrimage" to enhance the public appeal of this endeavor. To me, this is a base and crass use of the meaning behind the Camino which has drawn pilgrims to it from past centuries on into the present.

There is nothing wrong with objecting to this Camino race. If one wishes to take a "live and let live" approach to it, that is fine. To me, the negative impact of incrementalism, which intrudes into the spirit of a tradition, eventually reaches a point where, if it doesn't impact one's personal sensibilities now, will eventually grow and expand until it eventually will reach that level of impact.

Unless a firm line is drawn.

Where do we want to draw that line? I don't have the answer, but if those who want the Camino to stay meaningful to its traditional origins don't figure where the line should be drawn, then those who wish to turn the Camino into a commercial arena and multi-use sportsplex, with a helping of Disneyland on the side, will gladly define what the Camino is and will be used for.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Although I doubt it will effect the average pilgrim on the Camino very much, it definitely does have a bit of a repulsive edge to it, and no doubt just another method to profit from the Camino. I'm not surprised, though. After seeing jugglers and acrobats and a pink elephant (no, I wasn't drunk) in the plaza and around the cathedral in SDC the last time I was there. You have to just accept people will be people.
You would never see a competitive race made of the Hajj, Shikoku 88 or say one of the various Hindu pilgrimages.

I think that this race can go through without hardly a hitch. I have heard those on this forum that disagree but are willing to turn their heads for a second. Do nothing and those that are outspoken and in favor of it say nothing about the future. What bothers me is that those pro or neutral don't seem to mind giving away one little piece of serenity, a minor little inconvenience just for a little while. But mark my words "if" this turns out to be a money maker, and i'm almost certain it will be a hit, then next time you can give in a little more, break off another little piece of your heart, until it can and very well may turn into a carnival type atmosphere. So go ahead and give in, make all kinds of excuses why you really don't care or mind, how lttle it will affect you and there will be trouble down the road. Am I just paranoid, if you think that then just write me off as a crazy man, rebel rouser then hide in the bushes, do nothing and wait. Look at this like a test case those of you who don't really care and those of you who support the race may not be looking down the road but I can guarantee the OC of Spain IS.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

God's Blessings on you and your son.

The issue is NOT that one cannot run as a pilgrim on the Way in the spirit of the Camino. The issue is that of a formal race being conducted on the Camino, who's sole is for racing and the publicity and commercialization that it will garner; and then trying to use the aura of "pilgrimage" to enhance the public appeal of this endeavor. To me, this is a base and crass use of the meaning of the Camino which has drawn pilgrims to it from past centuries on in to the present.

There is nothing wrong with objecting to this Camino race. If one wishes to take a "live and let live" approach to it, that is fine. To me, the negative impact of incrementalism, which intrudes into the spirit of a tradition, eventually reaches a point where, if it doesn't impact one's personal sensibilities now, will eventually grow and expand until it eventually will reach that level of impact.

Unless a firm line is drawn. Where do we want to draw that line? I don't have the answer, but if those who want the Camino to stay meaningful to its traditional origins don't figure where the line should be drawn, then those who wish to turn the Camino into a commercial arena and multi-use sportsplex, with a helping of Disneyland on the side, will gladly define what the Camino is and will be used for.

Very good post my friend. If you have the time please read my almost parallel post. I started a petition however you'll have to scroll back some to find the link.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

From my reading of the promotion site, this is a relay for 10 teams. So no more than 10 participants on the road at any one time. The longest individual leg seems to be 20 km, shortest 6 km, but on average about 13 km. Never a marathon. So one might expect to see the 10 support crews on average every 13 km, probably in or close to a convenient town or village.

Walkers and runners spread out quickly - unlike the peloton in road cycling races - so I would expect that it might take a little time for participants to pass any particular spot as the field will spread out. The press will find that pretty uninteresting - video footage of a sole walker not apparently competing with anyone just doesn't maintain viewer interest in the same way as competitive cycle racing does.

A lot of the event will take place at night if it is run as a walk. At about 130km/day, teams will need to be averaging about 5.5 km/hr to achieve the distance in 24 hours. I suspect that most teams will walk continuously, with team members walking their leg and then heading off somewhere to recover and rest before being shuttled to their next start point. This will probably look like a lot of movement, but teams will work up a system that works.

It is possible that there might be daily start points as a control, so there might be some point at which all teams have arrived early in the morning, and are able to rest as a team, but I think most would be expecting to work throughout the day and night for the duration of the event.

Support crews don't have to be large for runners and walkers, who don't have the challenge of keeping a bicycle in peak condition. I wouldn't expect they would need more than a small bus for the other walkers and their gear and another vehicle as a runabout. They might choose to use more vehicles, but I cannot see why right now if they can get the shuttling of walkers through their walk, recover and rest pattern working well. Much depends on how much support the crews will offer, particularly in the areas of team catering and medical support. I would expect there to be a catering element of the team to cope with the need to feed walkers throughout the day, and possibly each team will have a physio or trainer to help walkers recover when they have finished a leg.

There is likely to be an official media crew collecting video and audio of the event, but I equally wouldn't expect that to be large. And you might expect that it won't include motorcycle mounted TV cameramen with large ENG cameras. You might also expect some local television news coverage in the areas through which the event is travelling on any particular day.

I really cannot see a compelling argument for this not to go ahead. That is not to say that I don't think is a bit tasteless, but I am not just not convinced by the arguments that I have seen so far.

Thanks for writing all this but everything you mention is for now,correct. Nothing about future effects. So turn your head for now, encourage others to do the same and we'll see what happens next year or down the road...the chances of eradicating cancer are in the early stages. You continue to ignore signs in the early stages and you may be disappointed later on. Just saying. I do appreciate your well thought out input except for the mention of two things .. money and the future.

 

[PncessAmy]

May not be my kind of Camino, but who am I to judge the worthiness of other ways? I don't flog myself the whole walk, does that make me less worthy than some? If they sully my way, it's nice to know where to send comments to. Otherwise I wish them peace and success, however they define it.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

The Camino, those parts that are on Spanish land, belong to Spain. If the Govt can make some money out of it then good for them, after all, as a country with massive debts, they sure could do with the extra funds.

"If the Govt can make some money out of it then good for them," seems to be the American way too. I've seen it in action, not pretty in the end.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Very good post my friend. If you have the time please read my almost parallel post. I started a petition however you'll have to scroll back some to find the link.

I signed it already. Thanks for your efforts.

 

[Kanga]

Taking an entirely pragmatic approach, I wonder if commercialising the Camino Francés to this extent will eventually be counter productive.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Because some don't want a commercial venture on the path and think that a this is the wrong venue for a race does not mean we are "judging".

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Taking an entirely pragmatic approach, I wonder if commercialising the Camino Francés to this extent will eventually be counter productive.

I think it will be greatly counter productive. I surely cannot see it helping things.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Signature, no, because all can walk camino. However, I still dislike idea. Growing up in Los Angeles, living in both NYC and LA as an adult, I look for sacred spaces: the chapel behind altar at St. Patrick's cathedral on 5TH avenue the one place in cathedral where no pics and talking is allowed, a quiet spot on Venice beach, the camino, and so on. Our world is so commercial trying to carve out a sacred moment is becoming a challenge. Climbimg Mt. Everest, has become a tourist trap, Ganges is polluted, and now the camino. No, this race will not impact pilgrims walking simutaneously. Yes, all are pilgrims even these racers. My point of contention: the monetary race continues to strip away just moments to be, to breathe, to slow down.

Exactly, thank you.

 

[Mark Lee]

I think that this race can go through without hardly a hitch. I have heard those on this forum that disagree but are willing to turn their heads for a second. Do nothing and those that are outspoken and in favor of it say nothing about the future. What bothers me is that those pro or neutral don't seem to mind giving away one little piece of serenity, a minor little inconvenience just for a little while. But mark my words "if" this turns out to be a money maker, and i'm almost certain it will be a hit, then next time you can give in a little more, break off another little piece of your heart, until it can and very well may turn into a carnival type atmosphere. So go ahead and give in, make all kinds of excuses why you really don't care or mind, how lttle it will affect you and there will be trouble down the road. Am I just paranoid, if you think that then just write me off as a crazy man, rebel rouser then hide in the bushes, do nothing and wait. Look at this like a test case those of you who don't really care and those of you who support the race may not be looking down the road but I can guarantee the OC of Spain IS.

Well, it is ultimately up to the Spanish government and I suppose the church authorities who have say in Camino matters. If they got no beef with the race, it happens.
The overall enormous popularity that has enveloped the Camino comes from modern technology. The internet. This very forum. The movie "The Way". The many books and youtube videos about it. There are probably thousands of youtube vlogs about it, and thousands or regular web blogs. There will only be more. Also, travel to Spain has become cheaper and easier. None of that is going to lessen. It will only increase. Pandora's box when opened, cannot be closed. That race is just like any of the other things. Just less subtle.
I'm not going to shake my fist in the sky about it. For all I know, all manner of grifters, showman, etc trekked along the Camino in olden times. Trying to squeeze out a few bucks from pilgrims then. I know if I walk it again I know what makes me happy when I do, and I don't see that changing.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Well, it is ultimately up to the Spanish government and I suppose the church authorities who have say in Camino matters. If they got no beef with the race, it happens.
The overall enormous popularity that has enveloped the Camino comes from modern technology. The internet. This very forum. The movie "The Way". The many books and youtube videos about it. There are probably thousands of youtube vlogs about it, and thousands or regular web blogs. There will only be more. Also, travel to Spain has become cheaper and easier. None of that is going to lessen. It will only increase. Pandora's box when opened, cannot be closed. That race is just like any of the other things. Just less subtle.
I'm not going to shake my fist in the sky about it. For all I know, all manner of grifters, showman, etc trekked along the Camino in olden times. Trying to squeeze out a few bucks from pilgrims then. I know if I walk it again I know what makes me happy when I do, and I don't see that changing.

You make some really good points brother. Thanks

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I doubt a single runner might be able to run a full marathon of 27 kms every day for 6 days,

Read about Jennie Anderson. She did almost that.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

I doubt a single runner might be able to run a full marathon of 27 kms every day for 6 days,

Read about Jennie Anderson. She did almost that.

Scott Jurek could

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Scott Jurek could

Anderson DID!!

 

[koknesis]

I doubt a single runner might be able to run a full marathon of 27 kms every day for 6 days,

Read about Jennie Anderson. She did almost that.

actually full marathon is 42.195 km. but I guess yes, there are much tougher races than that. for instance des Sables in Sahara. anyway, having 100 runners + some spectators on camino for 6 days will be hardy noticeable among overwhelming number of rightful pilgrims. whether or not they will get any spiritual reward for their effort, is solely up to them and official bodies governing these issues.

 

[VNwalking]

Lots of people have done back to back marathons. Just like lots of people have climbed Everest or walked the Camino. These used to be absurd 'out there' challenges. Not any more.

whether or not they will get any spiritual reward for their effort, is solely up to them and official bodies governing these issues

It's certainly up to them whether to have the intention to treat what they are doing as a pilgrimage, or not. (It's a race, actually, and having done both I can attest that there's a universe of difference between the two--but OK, let's hypothetically say they do and not to quibble over language...)
But the official bodies? Pffffft. Spiritual reward has nothing to do with official bodies. Spiritual reward is a deeply private matter that's the result of sincere inner work--not something that can be negotiated, sold, or anything to do with a certificate that you can on a wall.

 

[Kathar1na]

Well, it is ultimately up to the Spanish government and I suppose the church authorities who have say in Camino matters. If they got no beef with the race, it happens.
The overall enormous popularity that has enveloped the Camino comes from modern technology. The internet. This very forum. The movie "The Way". The many books and youtube videos about it. There are probably thousands of youtube vlogs about it, and thousands or regular web blogs. There will only be more. Also, travel to Spain has become cheaper and easier. None of that is going to lessen. It will only increase. Pandora's box when opened, cannot be closed. That race is just like any of the other things. Just less subtle.
I'm not going to shake my fist in the sky about it. For all I know, all manner of grifters, showman, etc trekked along the Camino in olden times. Trying to squeeze out a few bucks from pilgrims then. I know if I walk it again I know what makes me happy when I do, and I don't see that changing.

@Mark Lee, I liked your down to earth comment so much that I quote it in full . Also, your earlier comment that this planned event has a somewhat repulsive edge to it resonated with me. I understand many of the counterarguments but I find it hard to make them my own. I wonder how convincing they sound to many of the locals.

From the side of the church authorities, I find very few postulates about the outer environment of a long foot pilgrimage. The claim that the whole Camino Frances is a scared space - often seen in messages and articles - surprised me when I first read it. I started to walk from my front door and through the length of France. Much as I try, when I look out of my window, I don't see a sacred space out there. When does it become sacred? In Paris, in Tours, in SJPP, in Roncesvalles, later?

The Unesco World Heritage status that was rewarded to pilgrimage ways in France and Spain refers to the cultural/historic material complex of specific roads to Santiago. Because many buildings, some bridges, some parts of the road are so well preserved and form a unique global entity that it should be kept this way. It does not refer to pilgrimage as such. I don't find the pilgrimage to the (presumed) remains of St James in Compostela on the Unesco's list of intangible cultural heritage although the Hopping Procession of Echternacht and the Holy Blood Procession of Bruges is on that list. Why is that so? Lots of talk of tradition in this thread. What kind of tradition? I regard the medieval pilgrimages as dead as doornails. They died with the Reformation, the Counterreformation and the Age of Enlightenment. Today's pilgrimage of the kind to which this forum is dedicated seems to flourish like algae in warm water and with too much fertilizer. But what I see is a young and amorphous tradition.

I understand that people feel that they have found a good thing and want to keep it that way. I'm just not sure how to do it. My first reaction would actually be this: stop making PR for it. PR for (more) peregrinos to come to walk. But there is no letting up on this, is there?

 

[Mark Lee]

@Mark Lee, I liked your down to earth comment so much that I quote it in full . Also, your earlier comment that this planned event has a somewhat repulsive edge to it resonated with me. I understand many of the counterarguments but I find it hard to make them my own. I wonder how convincing they sound to many of the locals.

From the side of the church authorities, I find very few postulates about the outer environment of a long foot pilgrimage. The claim that the whole Camino Frances is a scared space - often seen in messages and articles - surprised me when I first read it. I started to walk from my front door and through the length of France. Much as I try, when I look out of my window, I don't see a sacred space out there. When does it become sacred? In Paris, in Tours, in SJPP, in Roncesvalles, later?

The Unesco World Heritage status that was rewarded to pilgrimage ways in France and Spain refers to the cultural/historic material complex of specific roads to Santiago. Because many buildings, some bridges, some parts of the road are so well preserved and form a unique global entity that it should be kept this way. It does not refer to pilgrimage as such. I don't find the pilgrimage to the (presumed) remains of St James in Compostela on the Unesco's list of intangible cultural heritage although the Hopping Procession of Echternacht and the Holy Blood Procession of Bruges is on that list. Why is that so? Lots of talk of tradition in this thread. What kind of tradition? I regard the medieval pilgrimages as dead as doornails. They died with the Reformation, the Counterreformation and the Age of Enlightenment. Today's pilgrimage of the kind to which this forum is dedicated seems to flourish like algae in warm water and with too much fertilizer. But what I see is a young and amorphous tradition.

I understand that people feel that they have found a good thing and want to keep it that way. I'm just not sure how to do it. My first reaction would actually be this: stop making PR for it. PR for (more) peregrinos to come to walk. But there is no letting up on this, is there?

Popular, hip things to do come and go. Make a movie or write a book about something like the Camino, the AT or the PCT and a whole bunch of people gonna want to do it. That's just life and with mass, instant communications like the net and cheap travel more people than used to can do it. It's wrong to think they shouldn't because it infringes on an elitist thought that only those that knew about it before it became popular are worthy of the experience.
Do I wish that it wasn't becoming more of a circus atmosphere? Of course. I also shake my head at the partying young people on the Camino, smoking dope. Getting drunk. Couples knocking boots in the sleeping quarters of the albergue (get a room already ha ha). The throngs of noisy pilgrims and tourists shuffling by in the cathedral during mass. I'd prefer all that didn't happen, but it's not going away and I refuse to be an angry elitist, ha ha.
Will the Camino lose its popularity? Who knows? Who cares?

 

[Deleted member 61803]

Popular, hip things to do come and go. Make a movie or write a book about something like the Camino, the AT or the PCT and a whole bunch of people gonna want to do it. That's just life and with mass, instant communications like the net and cheap travel more people than used to can do it. It's wrong to think they shouldn't because it infringes on an elitist thought that only those that knew about it before it became popular are worthy of the experience.
Do I wish that it wasn't becoming more of a circus atmosphere? Of course. I also shake my head at the partying young people on the Camino, smoking dope. Getting drunk. Couples knocking boots in the sleeping quarters of the albergue (get a room already ha ha). The throngs of noisy pilgrims and tourists shuffling by in the cathedral during mass. I'd prefer all that didn't happen, but it's not going away and I refuse to be an angry elitist, ha ha.
Will the Camino lose its popularity? Who knows? Who cares?

Well said Mark Lee. I couldn't agree more. You Tube has many videos of people treating the Camino as a drinking fest. Forums such as this complain about the Camino bed race, other articles show the complete nonsense of people paying others to do their Camino for them (oops sorry that was in the middle ages, or was it?) , some go for a walking holiday in the company of others. In the UK we have the Duke of Edinburgh award which kids rightly use for CV purposes, in Spain kids get the certificate of completion purely for CV purposes, all these and more exist on the actual Camino trails. They do not stop individuals from making their own personal pilgrimage.

It is not the physical road, or the other people who make the pilgrimage, it is you , your mind and your conscience which makes that pilgrimage, however you do it.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Can we draw the line on commercialism of religion at Jesus McFries, flailed into strips, then crucified over flames of holy oil? Even if it were a fundraiser for the worthy McDonalds houses, I think I might be offended.

 

[AbbyDee]

Popular, hip things to do come and go. Make a movie or write a book about something like the Camino, the AT or the PCT and a whole bunch of people gonna want to do it. That's just life and with mass, instant communications like the net and cheap travel more people than used to can do it. It's wrong to think they shouldn't because it infringes on an elitist thought that only those that knew about it before it became popular are worthy of the experience.
Do I wish that it wasn't becoming more of a circus atmosphere? Of course. I also shake my head at the partying young people on the Camino, smoking dope. Getting drunk. Couples knocking boots in the sleeping quarters of the albergue (get a room already ha ha). The throngs of noisy pilgrims and tourists shuffling by in the cathedral during mass. I'd prefer all that didn't happen, but it's not going away and I refuse to be an angry elitist, ha ha.
Will the Camino lose its popularity? Who knows? Who cares?

The thing is, that none of the "extra curricular" activities that you mention above are, shall I say it, new to the pilgrimage. Historically speaking, with the possible exception of "committing herbicide" ain't nothing done today that wasn't done 600 years ago. Indeed, there was a saying that a woman "left as a pilgrim and returned a whore"

As for things going commercial, nothing new there either, after all where did the money come from over the centuries to build that grand cathedral in Santiago de Compostella? Sure, a lot came from endowments from kings, princes and other assorted royalty, but a lot came from.......... pilgrims.

Now this does not make the Camino, in all its forms, devoid of the spiritual experience because it is not. However, the experience comes from within the individual, not from a place, or a building. Its like an account of one woman who reached the Alto de Perdon and her only impression was "rusty metal cut outs that should be cleaned up" and her next notation was a complaint of the difficulty she was having trying to follow her trendoid fad diet. Personally, I have no idea what she thought she was going to gain from her (and I use the term loosely at this point) pilgrimage, but whatever floats her boat.

The popularity of the Camino has waxed and waned over the last 1000 years. and no doubt will continue to do so.

 

[Mike Trebert]

What a depressing end to this thread. Passivity, fatalism, cynicism, emptiness. But in a cool way (he said, from between clenched teeth). Is it so-called religious faith which breeds such intellectual and spiritual laziness? Do you folks just leave god to work his mysterious plan without seeking to participate in an active constructive way? Is it really all just way too difficult? Just wait and see shall we? Should we walk away if this particular camino starts to self-destruct? Maybe @Kanga was right - the OP was about a race, why not just wait and see if this potentially major PR exercise turns out to be counter-productive. Then we can all just wander off and ruin something else, is that the winning philosophy here? We can paddle our canoes around the ocean liners in The Grand Canal and dither off into the sunset.

Mike

 

[AbbyDee]

What a depressing end to this thread. Passivity, fatalism, cynicism, emptiness. But in a cool way. Is it so-called religious faith which breeds such intellectual and spiritual laziness? Do you folks just leave god to work his mysterious plan without seeking to participate an any active constructive way? Is it really all just way too difficult? Just wait and see shall we? Should we walk away if this particular camino starts to self-destruct? @Kanga was maybe right - the OP was about a race, why not just wait and see if this potentially major PR exercise turns out to be counter-productive. Then we can all just wander off and ruin something else, is that the winning philosophy here? We can paddle our canoes around the ocean liners in The Grand Canal and dither off into the sunset.

Mike

I respectfully have to disagree with you. I think the end message here is that nothing is happening on the Camino is just the most recent face of what has been going on for as long as the Camino has been in existence. There has always been commercialism in one form or another. Intellectual ad spiritual laziness? For some, maybe, but certainly not for all. Not everyone who has ever walked the Way of St. James were in a state of grace - some were criminals who given a choice in the days of yore: Prison or Pilgrimage, possibly in hope that the person in question might repent their wickedness. There are those, who found the Pilgrimage a convenient way to "get the hell out of Dodge" before something really inconvenient came to light. There are those who went on Pilgrimage as sore of a "get out of hell free" ticket. And there are those who see Pilgrimage as walking meditation to reevaluate their lives, build a closer connection with the Divine, as a promise made and kept for someone who has gone before. And others who go for the joy of celebrating this unique experience with like minded souls.

The Camino will not self destruct - It will endure -It has endured.

 

[Mike Trebert]

I respectfully have to disagree with you. I think the end message here is that nothing is happening on the Camino is just the most recent face of what has been going on for as long as the Camino has been in existence. There has always been commercialism in one form or another. Intellectual ad spiritual laziness? For some, maybe, but certainly not for all. Not everyone who has ever walked the Way of St. James were in a state of grace - some were criminals who given a choice in the days of yore: Prison or Pilgrimage, possibly in hope that the person in question might repent their wickedness. There are those, who found the Pilgrimage a convenient way to "get the hell out of Dodge" before something really inconvenient came to light. There are those who went on Pilgrimage as sore of a "get out of hell free" ticket. And there are those who see Pilgrimage as walking meditation to reevaluate their lives, build a closer connection with the Divine, as a promise made and kept for someone who has gone before. And others who go for the joy of celebrating this unique experience with like minded souls.

The Camino will not self destruct - It will endure -It has endured.

Hi AbbyDee,

I'm not religious, at least not in a "conventional" way, so my approach to this issue has been pragmatic and deliberately secular. I think that there's no excuse for not learning from nuts-and-bolts experience and for not taking real world, bread-and-butter action.

Mike

 

[simply B]

@Mike Trebert -

While the entire idea of this event is repulsive to me, I have to draw back to a larger view of the data.

Are 100 runners and maybe an equally sized support contingent really going to matter? I do not think so... I have crunched and attached the stats tabulated from the data available here:

http://caminomilenario.com/blog/estadisticas-peregrinos-3/

I have presented it both with and without the surge in the Holy Years.

These folks won't even be a blip in just the "normal" growth increment of recent years (~ 20K new pilgrims/year).

Also, the growth rate since 1970 is not exponential but still exceeds sustainability IMHO. This curve is probably due for a crash for whatever reason.

Will this "ruin" the Camino? Well, that's a pretty relative concept and individually perceived, I think. There were huge changes just between my first two walks. Pilgs were up almost 25%. The "society" on the Camino went from people chatting in the evenings to hours-long engagement with their devices.

I have to think that the experience I so enjoyed for the first time was probably a disconcerting repeat for anyone familiar with the Camino before 2006. And the same is probably true for their experience vis-a-vis those who walked 5 years before them.

I do not have an answer but that may stem from not understanding that there is a question beyond one of personal taste.

B

 

[Deleted member 3000]

A teenager with a can of spray paint "ruins" the Camino. They Olympic Committee, a commercial operation, merely despoils it.

 

[fenix]

.....I think that there's no excuse for not learning from nuts-and-bolts experience and for not taking real world, bread-and-butter action.

Mike

I can't disagree with that statement. Absolutely, learning from nuts-and-bolts experience and taking real world, bread-and-butter action are solid values. But, seriously, it is pretty weird and insulting to accuse those who are not overly concerned about this camino race of "passivity, fatalism, cynicism, emptiness" and "intellectual and spiritual laziness".

Maybe we just direct our bread-and-butter actions elsewhere. Maybe we just find there are a lot more significant battles in this life to fight.

The level of drama and hyperbole in this thread is mind boggling. So much of it is misunderstanding, misinterpreting, and hyper-romanticizing the rich and varied history, tradition, and experiences of both ye olden days pilgrimages and their modern evolutions.

 

[Mike Trebert]

@Mike Trebert -

While the entire idea of this event is repulsive to me, I have to draw back to a larger view of the data.

Are 100 runners and maybe an equally sized support contingent really going to matter? I do not think so... I have crunched and attached the stats tabulated from the data available here:

http://caminomilenario.com/blog/estadisticas-peregrinos-3/

I have presented it both with and without the surge in the Holy Years.

These folks won't even be a blip in just the "normal" growth increment of recent years (~ 20K new pilgrims/year).

Also, the growth rate since 1970 is not exponential but still exceeds sustainability IMHO. This curve is probably due for a crash for whatever reason.

Will this "ruin" the Camino? Well, that's a pretty relative concept and individually perceived, I think. There were huge changes just between my first two walks. Pilgs were up almost 25%. The "society" on the Camino went from people chatting in the evenings to hours-long engagement with their devices.

I have to think that the experience I so enjoyed for the first time was probably a disconcerting repeat for anyone familiar with the Camino before 2006. And the same is probably true for those who walked 5 years before them.

I do not have an answer but that may stem from not understanding that there is a question beyond one of personal taste.

B

This race is not being started with the hope that it will remain small, and small will have to be pretty big if it's to gain any momentum. I've worked with marketing and PR people way too often. There will be a long term plan. The first iteration will be small but it will cost money. If it costs money it will have to earn money somehow, initially via sponsorship, I guess. And if it's at all successful, it will absolutely, certainly, get bigger. If it runs at a loss for too long, it'll be cancelled. BUT, there will be lots of very smart, hardworking, greedy people aiming at something - some target called money. Pilgrims don't generate much cash. Look at San Fermin! That's a gold mine. Events generate money. But look at the population of Pamplona during San Fermin - it quadruples!! What will be the net result of this race? I have no idea. But it could be dangerous just waiting to find out.

 

[Mike Trebert]

I can't disagree with that statement. Absolutely, learning from nuts-and-bolts experience and taking real world, bread-and-butter action are solid values. But, seriously, it is pretty weird and insulting to accuse those who are not overly concerned about this camino race of "passivity, fatalism, cynicism, emptiness" and "intellectual and spiritual laziness".

Maybe we just direct our bread-and-butter actions elsewhere. Maybe we just find there are a lot more significant battles in this life to fight.

The level of drama and hyperbole in this thread is mind boggling. So much of it is misunderstanding, misinterpreting, and hyper-romanticizing the rich and varied history, tradition, and experiences of both ye olden days pilgrimages and their modern evolutions.

If its a battle it's worth fighting. "Elsewhere" doesn't cut it. If you're not concerned, OK. I'm talking about people who consider it, claim to value the camino and walk away justifying "elsewhere".

 

[simply B]

But it could be dangerous just waiting to find out.

But somehow not presumptuous in telling people in another country how to run their affairs with regard to their cultural resources?

Don't get wrong, you have all of my sympathy. My support is contingent upon knowing exactly "who" would be the effective target of making this go by the wayside. Unless the natives themselves find it abhorrent (and they may in time) I find it rude to interfere.

It would be like having someone invite themselves over for dinner and preferring to set the menu and wine list.

B

 

[Mark Lee]

Indeed, there was a saying that a woman "left as a pilgrim and returned a whore"

Wow....I guess the early pilgrims weren't as mundane as I imagined them to be. ha ha

 

[Mike Trebert]

But somehow not presumptuous in telling people in another country how to run their affairs with regard to their cultural resources?

Don't get wrong, you have all of my sympathy. My support is contingent upon knowing exactly "who" would be the effective target of making this go by the wayside. Unless the natives themselves find it abhorrent (and they may in time) I find it rude to interfere.

It would be like having someone invite themselves over for dinner and preferring to set the menu and wine list.

B

I'm speaking as a participant who brings cash into Spain. There were 280,000 of us last year, I believe. They let us set the menu and wine list. We're the customers. We all, I hope, respect the people of Spain. I know I do. But admit it - we "interfere"! With billions of dollars. A brutal way of putting it, but it's a fact.

 

[JulieandPeter]

We found ourselves “caught up” in a race on the Tour Mont Blanc in September. It was a 200 mile, seven day race over 23 summits and I think there may have been 700 participants. We saw 10 or 11 during the entire seven days. One in particular had a profound almost Camino like impact on us.


During the hike, which was definitely the hardest physical thing I have ever done, we came across the lone runner in this photo. He was only five hours from the finish, but he stood in this spot for at least an hour (I know this because we passed him twice because we were lost). A few other runners had passed us, thanking us in various languages for stepping aside so they could pass. However, this runner just stood there at this spot on the edge of the mountain in silence. If there was any circus like behavior happening, it was my husband and I because we were LOST. However, we said nothing to him, not even a “buona sera” because we did not want to disturb this moment he was in.

This runner seemed to be taking it all in, reflecting on what he had accomplished, and feeling grateful for the magnitude of beauty around him. I think he was realizing at this particular moment that although he was not going to win the race, that he had already won. Watching him interrupt his race to perhaps appreciate how small his accomplishment thus far had been in the scheme of his surroundings reminded me of one of the many lessons of the Camino.

This was a big race, however, with the exception of a few breathless men and women gratefully making their way along their own “camino” and this runner on the side of the mountain meditating or praying or perhaps just looking up, the only real indication there was a racing event were the little yellow flags (thank goodness for the little yellow flags, or we may have been hopelessly lost in the mountains all night).

The point I am trying to make is a lot of people in this thread, some of whom have yet to walk the Camino, are anticipating a worst case scenario about this race; lamenting and worrying that it may snowball out of control and forever ruin the Camino for all of the “rightful pilgrims.” We are all rightful pilgrims, we are all sharing this world, we are all on our own journey with peaks and valleys and hopefully a friendly voice nearby with an encouraging word or an act of kindness to help us along our Way. There is room for everyone and if we have faith in each other and not assume the worst, it will not only be okay, it will be yet another wonderful lesson of the flow of humanity along the Camino. I say, Welcome!

 

[fenix]

We found ourselves “caught up” in a race on the Tour Mont Blanc in September. It was a 200 mile, seven day race over 23 summits and I think there may have been 700 participants. We saw 10 or 11 during the entire seven days. One in particular had a profound almost Camino like impact on us.
View attachment 32810

During the hike, which was definitely the hardest physical thing I have ever done, we came across the lone runner in this photo. He was only five hours from the finish, but he stood in this spot for at least an hour (I know this because we passed him twice because we were lost). A few other runners had passed us, thanking us in various languages for stepping aside so they could pass. However, this runner just stood there at this spot on the edge of the mountain in silence. If there was any circus like behavior happening, it was my husband and I because we were LOST. However, we said nothing to him, not even a “buona sera” because we did not want to disturb this moment he was in.

This runner seemed to be taking it all in, reflecting on what he had accomplished, and feeling grateful for the magnitude of beauty around him. I think he was realizing at this particular moment that although he was not going to win the race, that he had already won. Watching him interrupt his race to perhaps appreciate how small his accomplishment thus far had been in the scheme of his surroundings reminded me of one of the many lessons of the Camino.

This was a big race, however, with the exception of a few breathless men and women gratefully making their way along their own “camino” and this runner on the side of the mountain meditating or praying or perhaps just looking up, the only real indication there was a racing event were the little yellow flags (thank goodness for the little yellow flags, or we may have been hopelessly lost in the mountains all night).

The point I am trying to make is a lot of people in this thread, some of whom have yet to walk the Camino, are anticipating a worst case scenario about this race; lamenting and worrying that it may snowball out of control and forever ruin the Camino for all of the “rightful pilgrims.” We are all rightful pilgrims, we are all sharing this world, we are all on our own journey with peaks and valleys and hopefully a friendly voice nearby with an encouraging word or an act of kindness to help us along our Way. There is room for everyone and if we have faith in each other and not assume the worst, it will not only be okay, it will be yet another wonderful lesson of the flow of humanity along the Camino. I say, Welcome!

Beautiful - Thank you!

 

[Mike Trebert]

Yes, I considered the "issue" of this race. I do value the camino. I've been a peregrina since 1999. And still, I walked away from this silliness - the silliness of this race and the silliness of getting this up in arms about it.

I have no idea what you mean by "Elsewhere" doesn't cut it". It sounds as if you are saying that the battles I do pick to invest my emotions, time, effort, and money into are just hollow "justifications" of my "laziness" for not caring overly much about this camino race. It sounds as if you are implying that the other things I do are either worthless, or of far inferior worth than this race crusade, or are a nonexistent lie.

But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not actually mean anything that insulting or absurd, and instead merely misspoke or spoke clumsily.

We disagree about the potential impact of the race. The issue is: why? I have presumed to suggest why and I'm not going to apologise. There are a few posts above my post #181(!) which prompted my comments.

Edit: You're taking my comments too personally. I wasn't addressing anyone in particular, but addressing an attitude which I think I see frequently on this forum when discussion about issues like this get heated. The heat is often generated by defensiveness, I think.

Also, I mean everything I say. I try to pick my words carefully. So I'm not backing out of anything.

 

[simply B]

I'm speaking as a participant who brings cash into Spain. There were 280,000 of us last year, I believe.

Well, there were 278,041 pilgrims in 2016, true enough. Based upon the Pilgrim Office's statistics, annual for 2015 being the most recent data (http://oficinadelperegrino.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/peregrinaciones2015.pdf) one can see that the Spanish themselves are close to 50% of the pilgrim population.

So, now we are at only 140,000 pilgs bringing "new money" into the Spanish economy. If we gave them all to spend the unreasonable amount of $4,000 USD (or equivalent) then we would be at a tad over HALF-billion dollars.

Of course, that itself is way over the top because, near as I can tell, most walkers from SJPP and equivalent points distant on other routes report getting by on maybe 30-35 euro/day which is consistent with my experience. So, now we would be at about $150 million?

Finally, I will not admit to "interfering". The cafes/mesons were selling something, by their choice and using their own risk capital. I was being provided for with what they had at the time, I had no control over their business model nor their range of choices available.

B

 

[Mike Trebert]

Well, there were 278,041 pilgrims in 2016, true enough. Based upon the Pilgrim Office's statistics, annual for 2015 being the most recent data (http://oficinadelperegrino.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/peregrinaciones2015.pdf) one can see that the Spanish themselves are close to 50% of the pilgrim population.

So, now we are at only 140,000 pilgs bringing "new money" into the Spanish economy. If we gave them all to spend the unreasonable amount of $4,000 USD (or equivalent) then we would be at a tad over HALF-billion dollars.

Of course, that itself is way over the top because, near as I can tell, most walkers from SJPP and equivalent points distant on other routes report getting by on maybe 30-35 euro/day which is consistent with my experience. So, now we would be at about $150 million?

Finally, I will not admit to "interfering". The cafes/mesons were selling something, by their choice and using their own risk capital. I was being provided for with what they had at the time, I had no control over their business model nor their range of choices available.

B

I for one, spent a lot more than $4K. I obviously didn't mean billions of dollars in one year. Whatever the total I think we can all agree that it's a lot of money. You're being too literal about the word "interfering" I was referring in an ironic way to the post I was answering. It was a joke. Their "business model" is to sell. To buy is to have control. Let's not split hairs.

 

[MichaelB10398]

View attachment 32808 View attachment 32809 @Mike Trebert -

While the entire idea of this event is repulsive to me, I have to draw back to a larger view of the data.

Are 100 runners and maybe an equally sized support contingent really going to matter? I do not think so... I have crunched and attached the stats tabulated from the data available here:

http://caminomilenario.com/blog/estadisticas-peregrinos-3/

I have presented it both with and without the surge in the Holy Years.

These folks won't even be a blip in just the "normal" growth increment of recent years (~ 20K new pilgrims/year).

Also, the growth rate since 1970 is not exponential but still exceeds sustainability IMHO. This curve is probably due for a crash for whatever reason.

Will this "ruin" the Camino? Well, that's a pretty relative concept and individually perceived, I think. There were huge changes just between my first two walks. Pilgs were up almost 25%. The "society" on the Camino went from people chatting in the evenings to hours-long engagement with their devices.

I have to think that the experience I so enjoyed for the first time was probably a disconcerting repeat for anyone familiar with the Camino before 2006. And the same is probably true for their experience vis-a-vis those who walked 5 years before them.

I do not have an answer but that may stem from not understanding that there is a question beyond one of personal taste.

B

I remember an old story from my childhood about a frog that was put in a pot of water. He swam about and had a good time. He never realized that the pot was sitting on the stover and the burner was turned on very low. The frong just ignored the temperature of the water because all was well and the pot was such a nice improvement and he never took notice of anything around him. He was content in his little bit of heaven. Of course, the water just continued to heat up until the frog never realized that he was boiled to death.

Things of beauty are destroyed in little tiny steps that many will say who cares it is just so insignificant that in the scheme of things it is nothing. Let us eat, drink and be happy and go about our own little lives and enjoy what we have.

Do I think we need to be up in arms and in the streets protesting? No! I am not that kind of person and have never participated in such an activity. However, what I will do, and have done several times in my life, is write a complaint to parties of influence.

I know in my own life that I can make decisions without consideration of others. I suspect that others are the same. This decision may be just such a thing. I don't think we need to excited or overly anxious, but I do sense that action is both needed and required.

I have heard the comments on scared spaces. I am a dim witted man, but even I can see that a sacred space is one that is acknowledged by the many. It is not the path out your front door; it is not the little part of the forest that only you find sacred. The Camino has been deemed sacred for a hundred years. Those years have known great activity and then been hardly remembered. That does not take away from the fact that the path - all of them - have been recognized as sacred pilgrimages leading to Santiago.

Yes, the Way is open to all and welcomes all that walk - the atheist, the spiritualist, the spiritual, and the religious. We now have the tourists, the athletes, etc., and they are welcome. They ride horses, donkeys, bikes, wheelchairs; they go barefoot, in shoes, and on unicycles. The piont is that we do not judge the pilgrim on the trail. The Way has spoken to them and they have responded. For me that is good enough.

It isrepugnant that this trail that is so valued by the world be abused for purposes that could easily be achieved in literally hundreds of different venues throughout Spain. I felt a need to voice my feelings and I pray that it makes a difference and stops this activity from growing. This little frong has felt the temperature and I will speak up.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I remember an old story from my childhood about a frog that was put in a pot of water. He swam about and had a good time. He never realized that the pot was sitting on the stover and the burner was turned on very low. The frong just ignored the temperature of the water because all was well and the pot was such a nice improvement and he never took notice of anything around him. He was content in his little bit of heaven. Of course, the water just continued to heat up until the frog never realized that he was boiled to death.

Things of beauty are destroyed in little tiny steps that many will say who cares it is just so insignificant that in the scheme of things it is nothing. Let us eat, drink and be happy and go about our own little lives and enjoy what we have.
<snip>........

Well and brilliantly stated

 

[Tincatinker]

Members are reminded to debate the topic of a thread and to avoid at all times comments that are intended or might be interpreted as personal criticism of other members.

I do not enjoy spending my evenings reading and editing petty squabbles on a forum that is dedicated to sharing knowledge, experience and aspiration.

 

[dougfitz]

Thanks for writing all this but everything you mention is for now,correct. Nothing about future effects. So turn your head for now, encourage others to do the same and we'll see what happens next year or down the road...the chances of eradicating cancer are in the early stages. You continue to ignore signs in the early stages and you may be disappointed later on. Just saying. I do appreciate your well thought out input except for the mention of two things .. money and the future.

Money and the future! I suspect we will never agree, but for what it is worth, I cannot see either being as big an issue as much of the hyperbole in this thread suggests.

No-one will make much money, and I suggest a lot will be ploughed back into the local economies along the way, perhaps more than the average pilgrim individually, but pilgrims collectively will probably have a greater impact.

The future - it took nearly 100 years of running the Njiemegen Four Days walks to reach about 40,000 participants. That would really disrupt the Camino - or anywhere else - to have that amount of people. Possible - yes. Likely in the near future - not really.

So about 10 extra people along the trail. I suspect no-one will know except where they come across a support crew - and will they look any different to the support crews that are already prevalent between Sarria and Santiago that support the many pilgrims on that stretch who walk light? I doubt it. Would you seek to ban them too?

 

[David]

Here is the first group going through Logrono ...

 

[dougfitz]

Here is the first group going through Logrono ...

My eyesight isn't good enough to read the race bibs, but more London that Logrono perhaps?