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1648 Camino map showing pilgrims

David

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Moissac to Santiago Spring 2005 was the first foray.
Hi all (nope, not about the Coronavirus) .... a friend who lives out in the country in a large farmhouse (built 1645) has in the downstairs toilet (rest room?) a framed print of the Camino routes, originally printed in 1648.

What I find fascinating is that there are contemporary pilgrims depicted on it, in the corners ... pilgrims who seem to be travelling super-light, horses, a dog (so they went then too), and the first depiction I have seen of a late medieval pilgrim wearing a backpack (which strangely perhaps I found rather exciting), plus, of course, St James himself - but no trailers and no bicycles (no idea why ............... ;) ). Serious crowds in one pic!!!

I find them fascinating .... and thought you might like to see them - apologies for the quality but the map is under glass.

map 1.jpg

map st james and horse.jpg

map pilgrims.jpg

map backpack.jpg

map backpack (2).jpg
 
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David

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Moissac to Santiago Spring 2005 was the first foray.
I believe that illustration is modern, your second photo shows the signature: D. Derveaux (Daniel Derveaux, a French artist who died in 2010). Still great fun to look at though!
Dang and double dang!!!!! I should delete it really, no longer relevant.
 

Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
I believe that illustration is modern, your second photo shows the signature: D. Derveaux (Daniel Derveaux, a French artist who died in 2010). Still great fun to look at though!
Thank you.
There is a "Ponte de Orbigo" that made think if in 1648 they said in Leon "Ponte" instead of "Puente".
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
It is likely to be a "reconstruction" from an actual 17th Century map (the place names and the handwriting script used for them are rather accurate), and it can be the case (the rarity of old maps and their copyright value being what they are) that there may be an original that inspires it that may be completely unavailable anywhere except physically at one single library.

Anyway whilst your detail images are great in themselves, the very fact that they are so crisp and clean attests to the modern origin of the map.

But yes, it's a great one !!
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
It probably says "ponte" since the artist was French.
It probably says "ponte" because it was a 17th Century Leonese spelling.

Similarly elsewhere "Castrogeriz".

Anyway, 17th Century orthography was variable -- see anything by Shakespeare (original spelling editions).
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
Interestingly, some analysis of 15th Century pilgrim accounts and of "Saint Jacques" street & road names in France suggests that the routes through France that "most" (allegedly) followed were these :



The Le Puy and Arles routes are clearly there, and the Rhône river route (most likely by ferry) then the coastal route via the Perthus Pass and then likely Montserrat and the Catalan Way makes a very good deal of sense, as does the avoidance of the Landes in the Paris/Tours route.

The suggested route of the Paris/Tours Way after Poitiers is quite interesting.

As is the clear reliance on various waterways.

But I would nevertheless suspect this as being yet another modern "reconstruction", in this case because of the paucity of surviving direct source material of mediaeval pilgrim accounts.
 

Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
It probably says "ponte" because it was a 17th Century Leonese spelling.
Nope,
Ponte/puente, fonte/fuente, corpo/ cuerpo, etc. are isoglosses Galician/Leonese-Spanish
that already existed in that century.
The only Ponte that I know in the Leonese speaking territory is Pon(te)ferrada because it's just in the limit with the Galician speaking area of EL Bierzo.
So, I became baffled when I saw "Ponte de Orbigo" on the map.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
Nope,
Ponte/puente, fonte/fuente, corpo/ cuerpo, etc. are isoglosses Galician/Leonese-Spanish
that already existed in that century.
The only Ponte that I know in the Leonese speaking territory is Pon(te)ferrada because it's just in the limit with the Galician speaking area of EL Bierzo.
So, I became baffled when I saw "Ponte de Orbigo" on the map.
hmmmmm, I can find no non-modernised text of Pero Rodríguez de Lena's descriptions of the famous jousting there.

But I can see -- https://www.romaniaminor.net/gramatiques/gramatica_asturiana.pdf -- that in old Asturian-Leonese (spoken in that area 'til it was displaced by Castilian), it is "ponte". And I've seen elsewhere that in mediaeval Castilian, "ue" and "o" were in competition and could vary locally.

And more directly see here - https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a87a/371872311b1990877aeb4655d3153706867d.pdf - p. 18 on Mediaeval Leonese, showing that "ponte" could also be found in the westerly dialects, and Puente de Órbigo is more westerly in the province than not.

So not "nope" ... but I do agree that it's intriguing.

It seems to be called "Pont de la Reina" on this late 16th Century map : https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rcELo74Bj68/Rm_QPZhIUCI/AAAAAAAAALk/tMemclZu8JE/s1600/1560-1600.jpg -- Detail : http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/985/1442/1600/3.0.jpg
 

Peregrinopaul

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
VdlP(2012) Madrid(2014)Frances(2015) VdlP(2016)
VdlP(2017)Madrid/Sanabres/Frances reverse(2018)
Dang and double dang!!!!! I should delete it really, no longer relevant.
Don't berate yourself David. It's a striking piece of artwork, and the subsequent discussion has been very interesting. I'm thinking of ordering a copy.(Thanks for the reference, Glenshiro).
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
Oh well, David.
You win some, you lose some.
I bet a bunch of us were just as fooled as you, but are now angelicly quiet about it.
I was, hook, line, and sinker.:oops::rolleyes:
Regardless, it's a cool map. I liked the appearance of the Via de Bayona...now it's not so well known, but once it was a highway, and the map seems to affirm that. So I got all interested... 🤣
 

NorthernLight

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy to Santiago via the Frances 2012-2013. EPW2015
Aragonese & Frances 2016
Burgos to Muxia 2017
It’s showing a route that enters Viana from the north ... seemingly from Irun. Am I seeing correctly?
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
It’s showing a route that enters Viana from the north ... seemingly from Irun. Am I seeing correctly?
The route does in fact exist -- Basque Way to Agurain/Salvatierra, then tarmac to Viana via Santa Cruz de Campezo (though the modern hiking path through there actually ends up at Los Arcos).

It would be fascinating to see which historic map(s) this beautifully designed and astonishingly informative "1648" artefact was made from, but the historic map specialists tend to keep their secrets and the tricks of their trade close to the chest ...
 
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NorthernLight

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy to Santiago via the Frances 2012-2013. EPW2015
Aragonese & Frances 2016
Burgos to Muxia 2017
You are a true font of knowledge. Thank you.
 

Jeff Titelius

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (León to Santiago) 2018
Hi all (nope, not about the Coronavirus) .... a friend who lives out in the country in a large farmhouse (built 1645) has in the downstairs toilet (rest room?) a framed print of the Camino routes, originally printed in 1648.

What I find fascinating is that there are contemporary pilgrims depicted on it, in the corners ... pilgrims who seem to be travelling super-light, horses, a dog (so they went then too), and the first depiction I have seen of a late medieval pilgrim wearing a backpack (which strangely perhaps I found rather exciting), plus, of course, St James himself - but no trailers and no bicycles (no idea why ............... ;) ). Serious crowds in one pic!!!

I find them fascinating .... and thought you might like to see them - apologies for the quality but the map is under glass.

View attachment 70497

View attachment 70498

View attachment 70499

View attachment 70500

View attachment 70508
Fascinating!! Do you have a pic of the whole map in one shot? Thanks!
 

NorthernLight

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy to Santiago via the Frances 2012-2013. EPW2015
Aragonese & Frances 2016
Burgos to Muxia 2017
I’d guess a version of a moccasin like shoeboot.
 

AlwynWellington

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
please see signature
@David , I knew they were not from 1648 because they did not show the inscription on the western edge "Here be dragons" with suitable images.

PS: When I was at the Faro de Fisterra at sunset on 29 October 2017 I saw the bright eyes of two dragons patrolling the darkening skies about 10 kilometres to the west. Which also suggests, to me at least @David , the latter day artist is not someone of faith. Or, worse, is someone lacking in tradition in these matters.
 

longwalker60

Member
Camino(s) past & future
09/2018
Hi all (nope, not about the Coronavirus) .... a friend who lives out in the country in a large farmhouse (built 1645) has in the downstairs toilet (rest room?) a framed print of the Camino routes, originally printed in 1648.

What I find fascinating is that there are contemporary pilgrims depicted on it, in the corners ... pilgrims who seem to be travelling super-light, horses, a dog (so they went then too), and the first depiction I have seen of a late medieval pilgrim wearing a backpack (which strangely perhaps I found rather exciting), plus, of course, St James himself - but no trailers and no bicycles (no idea why ............... ;) ). Serious crowds in one pic!!!

I find them fascinating .... and thought you might like to see them - apologies for the quality but the map is under glass.

View attachment 70497

View attachment 70498

View attachment 70499

View attachment 70500

View attachment 70508
and still very cool. Great piece of memorbilia.
 

SusanH

Member
Camino(s) past & future
Walked 2014
Hi all (nope, not about the Coronavirus) .... a friend who lives out in the country in a large farmhouse (built 1645) has in the downstairs toilet (rest room?) a framed print of the Camino routes, originally printed in 1648.

What I find fascinating is that there are contemporary pilgrims depicted on it, in the corners ... pilgrims who seem to be travelling super-light, horses, a dog (so they went then too), and the first depiction I have seen of a late medieval pilgrim wearing a backpack (which strangely perhaps I found rather exciting), plus, of course, St James himself - but no trailers and no bicycles (no idea why ............... ;) ). Serious crowds in one pic!!!

I find them fascinating .... and thought you might like to see them - apologies for the quality but the map is under glass.

View attachment 70497

View attachment 70498

View attachment 70499

View attachment 70500

View attachment 70508
Wow!!! Love it!
 

MikeyC

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF - September 2016
CF - April May 2017
Shikoku - October 2017
Kumano Kodo - October 2017
CF - 2019
I have two early 17th century maps of Northern Spain and they are nowhere near as attractive as this.
This one is of the Kingdom of Navarre.
The axis is rotated - many early maps were oriented towards Jerusalem though this is oriented with west to the top.
I have highlighted St Jean, Valcarlos, Pamplona and Estella in red.294a.jpg
 

AlwynWellington

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
please see signature
@MikeyC , thank you

Is that Logrono I can see on the western edge at 42 degrees and 37 minutes north?
Can you describe the irregular diagonal line from bottom left of the image. It seems to be more than a boundary as elsewhere they have been picked out in green (Parte de Francia) and orange (Parte de ? Gulius).
 

NorthernLight

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy to Santiago via the Frances 2012-2013. EPW2015
Aragonese & Frances 2016
Burgos to Muxia 2017
@MikeyC
Can you describe the irregular diagonal line from bottom left of the image. It seems to be more than a boundary as elsewhere they have been picked out in green (Parte de Francia) and orange (Parte de ? Gulius).
The boundary between Castile and Navarra?
 

MikeyC

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF - September 2016
CF - April May 2017
Shikoku - October 2017
Kumano Kodo - October 2017
CF - 2019
@MikeyC , thank you

Is that Logrono I can see on the western edge at 42 degrees and 37 minutes north?
Can you describe the irregular diagonal line from bottom left of the image. It seems to be more than a boundary as elsewhere they have been picked out in green (Parte de Francia) and orange (Parte de ? Gulius).
It is indeed Logrono with Viana just before it.
 

alexwalker

Forever Pilgrim
Camino(s) past & future
(2009): Camino Frances
(2011): Sevilla-Salamanca, VdlP
(2012): Salamanca-SdC, VdlP
(2014): SJpdP-Astorga
(2015): Astorga-SdC
(2016) May Pamplona-Moratinos; Sept.:Burgos-SdC
(2016): August/Sept: Camino San Olav (Burgos-Covarubbias), Burgos-Sarria
(2017): May: Portuguese; Sept: Pamplona-SdC
Dang and double dang!!!!! I should delete it really, no longer relevant.
Do you have some relics for sale, David?
 

MikeyC

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF - September 2016
CF - April May 2017
Shikoku - October 2017
Kumano Kodo - October 2017
CF - 2019
... and whereas old maps go into frames, old pilgrims go into Zimmer frames!
 

alexwalker

Forever Pilgrim
Camino(s) past & future
(2009): Camino Frances
(2011): Sevilla-Salamanca, VdlP
(2012): Salamanca-SdC, VdlP
(2014): SJpdP-Astorga
(2015): Astorga-SdC
(2016) May Pamplona-Moratinos; Sept.:Burgos-SdC
(2016): August/Sept: Camino San Olav (Burgos-Covarubbias), Burgos-Sarria
(2017): May: Portuguese; Sept: Pamplona-SdC
Nah, gave the last one away 13 years ago and have been single since :)
Me too. Have been married to two of those higher powers.
 
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