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COVID A likely scenario of things to come

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pepi

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
2013, 14, 16, 17, 18
(Excuse if I picked the wrong forum)

The mountain refuges in Switzerland, -a business very similar in kind, size and economic importance as the albergues along the caminos-, are currently preparing for the summer season; the first refuges opening on forthcoming ascension.
The obvious challenge is to observe the distance of 2 m or 6 ft between berths in the dormitories. Indispensable separations diminishing substantially the capacities. Quoting the today's Sunday newspaper Sonntags Zeitung: The Monte Rosa lodge in the Valais is reopened at Ascension Day with 70 instead of 120 overnight accommodations. "We must remain flexible," says lodge keeper Kilian Emmenegger. He has decided to open the hostel one week ahead of June 19, the official date indicated by the government, "to hopefully cushion the impact the great losses during the lockdown." Another lodge, Bluemlisalp with 38 dormitory beds is cutting the number to half. According to Swiss Alpine Club SAC, the mountain lodges will have to cope with a decrease of 50% in the season, about 130'000 less overnight stays and equivalent of a CHF 12 million at least. Many lodges may be forced to keeping closed because they cannot operate profitably under these circumstances, which also concern the losses in providing dinners and breakfast; the dining areas in a majority of lodges being too cramped for distancing, customers will be forced to carry their own food and eat on the way.

Hospitaleros and peregrinos are well advised to prepare for the same scenario as there will be no alternatives.

Screenshot 2020-05-10 10.31.58.png
 
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dougfitz

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Spain: Mar 2010, Apr 2014, May/Jun 2016. Norway/Sweden: 2012, 2018. Other: 2011, 2019. CP (tbc)
Hospitaleros and peregrinos are well advised to prepare for the same scenario as there will be no alternatives.
I wonder why anyone would think that albergues, hostels, hotels, bars, cafes and the like aren't already doing their planning about how to open.

As for pilgrims. We seem to be a mixed bag. Some are ready to go back as soon as it is open. For Spanish pilgrims, that might be quite soon. For others, it still appears some way off.

As for the assessment that there will be no alternative, let me ask 'to what?' Albergues, which appears to be the subject of you post, have never been the only form of accommodation. Or is your point that everyone will be facing the same reduction in numbers? I am not sure that this is true either. Certainly there were places where my wife and I stayed in private accommodation in 2016 where there would be no reduction in bed count, even if access to common areas had to be restricted. So yes, there will be less accommodation, but how much less still seems pretty indeterminate.

The other effect will be on prices, and how much these will go up. I am probably in a position to be able to afford private rooms for most of the time, even if in the past I have also used albergues. If prices do go up, even at albergues, it will be much more difficult for those without such financial resources to afford a bed outside of the albergue network. I think that we will have a moral dilemma here about how we encourage those who can afford to pay more and not stay at donotivos or other cheaper albergues to make that choice. It seems intrinsically unfair not to do so, and to take a less expensive bed from someone who might be in greater need, but equally difficult to have positive measures to make that happen.
 

pepi

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
2013, 14, 16, 17, 18
I wonder why anyone would think that albergues, hostels, hotels, bars, cafes and the like aren't already doing their planning about how to open.
Because Spain is unfortunately well behind in reopening in comparison to some other European countries....with cause of course after having been hit most severely. And quibbling about "alternatives", I obviously meant the albergue-hospis in the first place; we too have alternative ways to the network of lodges in Switzerland btw.
We all know that you are 'in a position to be able to afford private rooms', @dougfitz, you've mentioned it before.

The point of my post simply is to inform of what is currently implemented in very similar conditions elsewhere, to those who have been wondering about the likely camino reopening-conditions on this forum, and btw, English is not my mother tongue in case my post was not phrased appropriately as such.
 

Marc S.

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Since 2012: CF, CdN, CP, Salvador, Aragones, Via Regia, Elisabethpfad, Jakobsweg NRW, Jakibspaad.
Thank you for informing us about these developments in Switzerland, I am curious how it will work out.

Actually I just read that in the Netherlands the youth hostels run by the YHA will gradually re-open. However, it will only be possible to stay in private rooms and not in shared rooms. Their communal spaces (bar & restaurant) will also be open as apparently they think it is possible to keep social distancing rules in place. - I was actually surprised by this step as the youth hostels in our neighbour countries Belgium and Germany are still closed.

I am curious how this will develop - without wanting to make any predictions or speculations about future developments in Spain, I think it is at least interesting to see how developments are in other European countries.
 

dougfitz

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Spain: Mar 2010, Apr 2014, May/Jun 2016. Norway/Sweden: 2012, 2018. Other: 2011, 2019. CP (tbc)
We all know that you are 'in a position to be able to afford private rooms', @dougfitz, you've mentioned it before.
You miss the point. Whether or not your assessment of the preparedness of Spain is correct, to suggest that it is not planning seems vaguely ridiculous, and out of our control in any case. While we can be doing other, perhaps more practical things, I am suggesting that we would be able to prepare ourselves in other ways. One is that I think we should be pondering on what moral obligation we owe when walking the camino to those who have greater need of albergues. I understand it was, after all, why the albergue movement started - to give those who could not afford the cost of conventional accommodation the opportunity to walk the camino.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
CF SJPdP to SdC
(May 2015)
CF Sarria to SdC
(May 2016)
CF SJPDP-SdC
(Apr/May 2018)
VdlP (2022)
I wonder why anyone would think that albergues, hostels, hotels, bars, cafes and the like aren't already doing their planning about how to open.

As for pilgrims. We seem to be a mixed bag. Some are ready to go back as soon as it is open. For Spanish pilgrims, that might be quite soon. For others, it still appears some way off.

As for the assessment that there will be no alternative, let me ask 'to what?' Albergues, which appears to be the subject of you post, have never been the only form of accommodation. Or is your point that everyone will be facing the same reduction in numbers? I am not sure that this is true either. Certainly there were places where my wife and I stayed in private accommodation in 2016 where there would be no reduction in bed count, even if access to common areas had to be restricted. So yes, there will be less accommodation, but how much less still seems pretty indeterminate.

The other effect will be on prices, and how much these will go up. I am probably in a position to be able to afford private rooms for most of the time, even if in the past I have also used albergues. If prices do go up, even at albergues, it will be much more difficult for those without such financial resources to afford a bed outside of the albergue network. I think that we will have a moral dilemma here about how we encourage those who can afford to pay more and not stay at donotivos or other cheaper albergues to make that choice. It seems intrinsically unfair not to do so, and to take a less expensive bed from someone who might be in greater need, but equally difficult to have positive measures to make that happen.
Good points @dougfitz .

Additionally, if Albergues were to reopen and keep beds 2 meters apart, I still don't think I would use them.
Maybe the virus hasn't heard about the 2 meter rule?

I'm not one who wants to play Russian Roulette with such arbitrary measures I'm afraid.

Happy to wait for the 'all clear' whenever that might come.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I for one appreciate the information about the situation in the Swiss Alpine huts provided by @pepi. And if I am pondering the financial situation of others at all at this moment in time then it's not whether they could afford private rooms on a Spanish camino or not, or how my personal choices of camino accommodation would affect them. It's whether the economic situation in the immediate future will be such that they have a job.
 
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Telboyo

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
I intend to leave the UK the day Before Brexit and walkMarch -April 2019 Camino Frances
I think that camping (in dedicated, organized sites) could be a suddenly interesting proposition for the future. More hassle, but not so expensive and still preserving the basic idea of sharing spaces with other pilgrims.
The problem with camping is keeping social distance in the ablutions, camo sites in the Netherlands are opening to only self contained units with their own toilets and showers.
 

Marc S.

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Since 2012: CF, CdN, CP, Salvador, Aragones, Via Regia, Elisabethpfad, Jakobsweg NRW, Jakibspaad.
The problem with camping is keeping social distance in the ablutions, camo sites in the Netherlands are opening to only self contained u it's with their own toilets and showers.
Actually, it has just been decided that from 1 July onwards campings in the Netherlands are also allowed to open their shared facilities (showers, toilets, etc.), providing that the current decrease in the number of infections will stabilize - it is important to add this.

I am not posting this because I am particularly in favor or against this (in these issues, I more or less trust the assessment by my government). I have to come to realize though that all currently planned relaxations of the lockdown in my country (such as the opening of campings) may turn out to be temporary, that there is (by lack of a better word) an element of trial and error, and certain relaxations may be reversed again if the number of infection cases will rise. I am bit worried about how people will react to such setbacks.

Back on the topic of this thread : a likely scenario of things to come. While it is encouraging to read what is slowly starting to get possible in different countries, I think we should also include the scenario that some things will be possible for a while, but then will be reversed. Which is one of the reasons why I do not bother planning a camino abroad for this year, while hoping though to walk in my own country.
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
Hope we can avoid the spiralling down into insults, and that people can disagree without being rude. Where I come from, saying that a person’s response is ”ridiculous”, even if only “vaguely ridiculous,” is rude. Especially when the words are written, not given with the benefit of our voices and gestures. I am not saying that people are intending to be rude, but that is how some of the comments may come across.

But anyway, back to the point of the thread, I am wondering how social distancing is going to solve the transmission problem in confined spaces. If you look at some of the contact tracing that has been done, when people are confined together for sustained periods, it doesn’t seem like social distancing has any effect on dampening the transmission. The examples of the Washington choir detailed in this article (which I’ve posted in another place as well, sorry for the duplicate) and the call center suggest that the sustained contact is the culprit, and the spread seems to well exceed the social distance. I’m sure that there is still a ton to learn about this virus and its transmission, but I for one don’t think I want to be one of the test cases.

 

judithrubenstein

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
(2020)
the phrase, "my own country" seems to come up a lot. I probably am so unwelcome; not only am I from the United States, with a gov't that is not as thoughtful as some of yours, but I'm from New York City. I feel pretty unwanted. But here in Brooklyn, one of NYC's outer boroughs, I keep jogging up and down the sidewalks (the parks are too crowded) in preparation for someday, somewhere, being welcomed.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
the phrase, "my own country" seems to come up a lot. I probably am so unwelcome; not only am I from the United States, with a gov't that is not as thoughtful as some of yours, but I'm from New York City. I feel pretty unwanted.
Welcome to the forum, @judithrubenstein. I think you may misunderstand the use of "my (own) country" in this context. It is actually quite useful when someone specifies about which country's Covid-19 measures und which country's Covid-19 situation they are talking (as far as Europe is concerned) where we have quite some diversity (as usual). And we usually know best about the country where we live. In fact, at least in my experience, "what's it currently like where you are" has become a favourite topic in a number of my (often international) Zoom meetings. It's not political. It's about how many km can you walk from your home, what kind of shops are open, where did you buy this facemask. Or are the Alpine huts open yet? (Many huts are not yet open because it is still too early in the year for the Alps).
 

Felipe

Veteran Member
The problem with camping is keeping social distance in the ablutions, camo sites in the Netherlands are opening to only self contained units with their own toilets and showers.
I am not considering camping in the immediate future, but only after most restictions are lifted. Note that, also, private rooms in albergues and "pensiones" rarely include bathrooms.
Not that I be a camping enthusiast....I did in the remote times when I had little children. And the idea of waking up every morning with a stifness in the back does not actually entice me too much. But I can do it again, as an intermediate way between crowded albergues (which I like usually) and costly, nameless private rooms.
 
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C clearly

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016), VDLP (2017), Mozarabe (2018), Vasco/Bayona (2019)
this article (which I’ve posted in another place as well, sorry for the duplicate)...
Very interesting article and helpful, at least for those of us who live in mild climates.
 

RJM

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
A few times
Seeing multiple threads started on here of this same subject I still cannot help but think there is a lot of almost wishful thinking in regards to more private (and expensive) accommodations on the Camino, more specifically I am sure the Frances. A way, by force via the Covid-19, of gentrifying the Frances. Keep away all those poor hobby pilgrims. No more long queues for wonderful cafe con leche and those delightful croissants in the morning. No drunkards at night disturbing everyone. Will chase away all those noisy young pilgrims etc...
My own theory is that in just a few short years things will normalize of sorts after the smoke clears and people will be hungry to travel and experience different things again and the Camino routes will fill up again.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Seeing multiple threads started on here of this same subject
This made me scroll back to the beginning of the thread which started in this way:

The mountain refuges in Switzerland, - a business very similar in kind, size and economic importance as the albergues along the caminos - , are currently preparing for the summer season; the first refuges opening on forthcoming ascension. The obvious challenge is to observe the distance of 2 m or 6 ft between berths in the dormitories.
All I read in this message was the fact that the technical adaptation of dormitory like accommodation is a challenge. I found it interesting. It is the first time that I read about practical adaptation measures taken by owners or tenants of such accommodations, not speculations about what may or may not happen. That's what I read ....

BTW, for those not familiar with our calendar: "forthcoming ascension" refers to a public holiday in many countries including the Alpine countries. It falls on Thursday, 21 May 2020, this year.
 
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C clearly

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016), VDLP (2017), Mozarabe (2018), Vasco/Bayona (2019)
I still cannot help but think there is a lot of almost wishful thinking in regards to more private (and expensive) accommodations on the Camino, more specifically I am sure the Frances. A way, by force via the Covid-19, of gentrifying the Frances.
I see no evidence whatsoever of this wishful thinking. Sure there is an occasional rueful recognition that there could be smaller crowds, but that is not the same as wishing that prices would go up and force out pilgrims with less money! Rather, concerns have been expressed about how the lower cost options can be preserved.
 

pepi

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
2013, 14, 16, 17, 18
Thank you @peregrina2000, @Katharina and others. My point exactly: Spain is part of Europe, with common lifestyle, infrastructures etc. and I am sure, hospitaleros are interested to obtain info about how others in very similar circumstance but fortunate enough to be further down the road are coping.

Spain is very dependent on tourism, but the government's biggest problem are the mediterranean regions and the islands with their robust lobby. In comparison, the hardly organised camino albergues in the north have no voice to speak of.
They are not organised like the Swiss Alpine Club SAC with 160 full member lodges and many additional private associated refuges and a powerful presence in parliament. (Austria and other countries having comparable organisations of course)
Would it not be helpful for an ad-hoc camino representation to present the SAC's specific "after Covid-19" agenda for albergue-type lodges in an almost identical situation, to the national tourist board? I'd volunteered to ask to obtain a agenda-copy, but to whom to send it if I'd get one?

A camino without the albergue infrastructure is unthinkable and we peregrinos have a foremost interest to see that it remains intact,-regardless of wether we personally use it. But hospitaleros, especially the independent owners are a proud lot and for them to beg for support is the very last resort. We need to assist Ivar's efforts with better ideas of how to donate without humbling the recipients.
I am not competent in these areas, but would a donation of 100€ to a centralised collection in return for a decorative compostela-type document, along perhaps with a virgin credencial for the next walk, not be more effective? The collected amount would be distributed equally to all participating (private?) albergues.
And please, no post-Covid-19 discounts on already tiny tariffs as recompensation, such will only prolong the agony IMHO.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
CF SJPdP to SdC
(May 2015)
CF Sarria to SdC
(May 2016)
CF SJPDP-SdC
(Apr/May 2018)
VdlP (2022)
Hope we can avoid the spiralling down into insults, and that people can disagree without being rude. Where I come from, saying that a person’s response is ”ridiculous”, even if only “vaguely ridiculous,” is rude. Especially when the words are written, not given with the benefit of our voices and gestures. I am not saying that people are intending to be rude, but that is how some of the comments may come across.

But anyway, back to the point of the thread, I am wondering how social distancing is going to solve the transmission problem in confined spaces. If you look at some of the contact tracing that has been done, when people are confined together for sustained periods, it doesn’t seem like social distancing has any effect on dampening the transmission. The examples of the Washington choir detailed in this article (which I’ve posted in another place as well, sorry for the duplicate) and the call center suggest that the sustained contact is the culprit, and the spread seems to well exceed the social distance. I’m sure that there is still a ton to learn about this virus and its transmission, but I for one don’t think I want to be one of the test cases.

Like you, happy to wait and not be a test case!

Interesting article. Particularly the call centre. I have a small one in the Philippines, a region which has very strict lock down laws. Many weeks ago, all the staff were required to either move out and work from home, or stay in the office. Quite literally! Live there. Not allowed outside for any reason.

For a variety of reasons 10 staff decided to move into the office (long commutes, lack of internet, hard to work at home etc). So one of the managers volunteered to join them. We all thought it would be for a couple of weeks......

We managed to rent an additional apartment above the office (the 'girls' dorm), and the meeting room is now the 'guys' dorm.

Food has to be delivered in. They have great Spirit, keep each other sane with games and exercise (the manager teaches yoga), and have become an inspiration to us all. We call it the 'Big Brother' House.

They are all safe and well, as are those at home. I give thanks everyday that it may remain so.

We're in no rush.......
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
The Spanish government has now published the protocols / guidelines for hotels, for restaurants, for campings, for museums etc.

The new rules for albergues and hostels are published in this document:
https://www.mincotur.gob.es/es-es/COVID-19/GuiasSectorTurismo/Albergues.pdf

It’s a document of 25 pages. These rules were drawn up in collaboration with, among others, the Spanish network of youth hostels and S.A. Xacobeo which is a Galician government organisation dealing with Holy Year 2021 events and with the management of the public pilgrim albergues in Galicia.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Translation of an extract from the Spanish guidelines for anti-Covid measures for dormitories in albergues:
  • The beds in the dormitories must be arranged in such a way as to respect the minimum safety distance or the legally accepted social isolation distances.
  • In dormitories, guests should be encouraged to make their own beds, and to not touch other guests' beds or bunk beds. The albergue should provide each guest with bagged or packaged bedware, thus guaranteeing that it is clean for the guest and contamination is avoided in case other clients use or touch the bunk bed prior to the guest's arrival.
The safety distance is defined as 2 metres. Compliance with the safety distance is also required for the breakfast and dining area in albergues. Quote: For the dining area, a maximum number must be defined for available seats so that the safety distance between guests is respected.

The guidelines emphasize the importance of cleanliness and cleaning, more than once per day.

The importance of ventilation of the rooms of the albergue as a preventive measure against contamination and transmission of the virus is also emphasized in the document.

 
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pepi

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
2013, 14, 16, 17, 18
While having been rudely discouraged by some to pursue this thread, I have taken the trouble to translate the checklist for the Swiss mountain huts and lodges, issued on May 08 by the SAC (Swiss Alpine Club) into English as well as in Spanish (Google translated with all its deficiencies, but understandable with a bit of good intent)

As mentioned previously, the SAC is one of the largest Swiss sports association, it has 150’000 members and is composed of 111 local sections owning and operating some 155 SAC huts (lodges) very similar in kind and concept to the camino albergues; I would imagine that the list attached may be of interest to the latter.

This list is intended for Albergues. Perhaps someone in this Forum has access to a body or organisation of Albergues and would take care to pass it on.
For peregrinos, this general SAC advise may of equal interest when prepping for their next walk hopefully possible again soon:

Quote:
With the help of the SAC sector concept, the hut teams and sections define, implement, communicate and control the protective measures for their hut. The measures must be documented in a protection concept for each individual hut.
The conditions in the huts are very different and so will the protection concepts. They will ultimately decide on the number of guests who may be accommodated and catered for in a hut. Before each planned hut visit, it is therefore essential to consult the hut's website or contact the hut team.
In all mountain huts in Switzerland (and in neighbouring countries), the following basic rules for a visit apply with immediate effect:
• Visit our huts only when in good health.
• Reserve your sleeping place - without reservation no overnight stay.
• Bring your own: Sleeping bag, pillowcase, disinfectant, towel (protective masks if necessary).
• Take your rubbish with you for disposal at dedicated deposits.
Of course, the mountain huts cannot return to complete normality. However, thanks to the responsible implementation of the protective measures by the hut teams and the strict adherence to the guidelines by the guests, nothing stands in the way of an eventful excursion to one of the countless Swiss mountain huts, even in summer 2020.
Unquote

The last sentence unfortunately will not apply to the camino, but with the proper measures in place at the albergues, hostals and amongst disciplined peregrinos....in fall perhaps? Lets hope.
 

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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
All of these precautions are great.......but.......wouldn't you just prefer to wait until they are no longer necessary?
Is your question addressed to potential pilgrims or to the owners and tenants of the pilgrim albergues? ☺
 

Rj7797

Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2017
All of these precautions are great.......but.......wouldn't you just prefer to wait until they are no longer necessary?
Yup. Especially when I am not even close to convinced we understand as much about the virus as we think we do. The amount of noise surrounding it (and almost every other topic these days) is enough to drive a person mad. I do the best I can to keep myself and others safe and practice a lot of paitence. Hope everyone stays healthy until they can get back to the camino!
 

Marc S.

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Since 2012: CF, CdN, CP, Salvador, Aragones, Via Regia, Elisabethpfad, Jakobsweg NRW, Jakibspaad.
While having been rudely discouraged by some to pursue this thread, I have taken the trouble to translate the checklist for the Swiss mountain huts and lodges
Thank you for your effort @pepi. I liked the topic of this thread and your intention to inform of what is currently implemented in very similar conditions elsewhere. But maybe we have to start a new thread on this sometime - as some people seem determined to continue derailing and sabotaging this thread.
Rather sad, particularly as I just remember a recent thread about how welcoming our forum is for new members, and how much we value this.
 
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C clearly

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016), VDLP (2017), Mozarabe (2018), Vasco/Bayona (2019)
@Marc S. has a good point about this thread going astray. Some off-topic posts have been deleted. Please stay on topic and avoid personal comments, so the moderators don't need to get heavy-handed.

Those who wish to discuss how albergue accommodations are trying to adapt to new requirements, can also check out a couple of existing threads that discuss how albergues and pilgrims are preparing for likely scenarios. For example:
Spain's new government guidelines
Designing an albergue for the post-COVID world
 

Faye Walker

Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
@Marc S. has a good point about this thread going astray. Some off-topic posts have been deleted. Please stay on topic and avoid personal comments, so the moderators don't need to get heavy-handed.

Those who wish to discuss how albergue accommodations are trying to adapt to new requirements, can also check out a couple of existing threads that discuss how albergues and pilgrims are preparing for likely scenarios. For example:
Spain's new government guidelines
Designing an albergue for the post-COVID world
Not sure where this would go, but it might be useful too:

 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
First came some attempts at gentle nudging, then came some minor moderator tinkering, which was in turn followed by some major moderator surgery to delete posts. But still the sniping continued. When this happens, the best course of action is to close the thread, because the seeds of discontent are always there under the surface and just keep popping up. What started as a sharing of factual information about how one country is proposing to deal with covid in albergue-like structures for some reason led to off-topic insults. I apologize to those who would like to continue this discussion, because I think there is going to be a lot of opportunity for discussion on how albergues can adapt to what are now the proposed regulations issued by the government of Spain. I am sure the topic will surface again in another thread, in response to new developments, and maybe its trajectory will be more positive.
 
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