A message to groups of men, and to us all.

[Readey]

There has been word of solo women feeling intimidated by certain large groups of men walking together on the last 100km to
SdC. If you are in a group of men and passing a lone woman, please be aware of your behaviour and make an extra effort to make her feel safe and unthreatened.

Or, just as importantly, if you see a group of men in any way harassing a woman on the Camino (or anywhere for that matter), please support her by offering to walk with her. She may feel fine and not bothered by the situation, but it can make the world of difference if she feels unsafe to know that she’s not alone.

Thanks for reading x

 

[Former member 59618]

best post I've read today!

 

[deano5]

There has been word of solo women feeling intimidated by certain large groups of men walking together on the last 100km to
SdC. If you are in a group of men and passing a lone woman, please be aware of your behaviour and make an extra effort to make her feel safe and unthreatened.

Or, just as importantly, if you see a group of men in any way harassing a woman on the Camino (or anywhere for that matter), please support her by offering to walk with her. She may feel fine and not bothered by the situation, but it can make the world of difference if she feels unsafe to know that she’s not alone.

Thanks for reading x

Will always comply with this request, might make a great friend!

 

[Former member 102963]

There has been word of solo women feeling intimidated by certain large groups of men walking together on the last 100km to
SdC. If you are in a group of men and passing a lone woman, please be aware of your behaviour and make an extra effort to make her feel safe and unthreatened.

Or, just as importantly, if you see a group of men in any way harassing a woman on the Camino (or anywhere for that matter), please support her by offering to walk with her. She may feel fine and not bothered by the situation, but it can make the world of difference if she feels unsafe to know that she’s not alone.

Thanks for reading x

Good post, and whilst this would seem obvious and intuitive to 99.9% of us it is worth us considering our actions and how they might help the situation.

I remember reading a female walker who hated walking in the early morning dark, and always felt more reassured if she heard the noise of ‘trekking poles’ behind her. A main part of the reason I bought some (and the bad knees) and if was I behind a female would make the poles very noisy!

Also sometimes you do have to give it thought and be aware of your environment. For example in my old house I would often be on a late night train home. After getting off I had a long walk down a long road and there would also been single females walking too. When I first moved there I would often walk head down, looking at phone and you may be behind someone. I quickly amended by modus operandi, to ensure i was either a) first off the train and speed walk for the first part, or b)cross the road if a female was in front of me (very wide road) and overtake about 30 meters across road.

So always be aware. Being nice and upstanding is great but also be aware of your presence and how you can mitigate any concerns. Seemingly small things can make a difference!

 

[henrythedog]

With utmost respect to the op.

But its presumptuous to lump every man/men group walking together have illusory malintentions and to make special accomodations for every female peregrina

Seemingly casting shadows on every XY ...creating unreasonable fear, and suspicion where normal human instincts would allow sound judgement about situations.

Again, no offence intended

And therein lies the problem William, IMHO.

Forgive me for sticking to the old-fashioned ‘two genders’ paradigm; but it’s impossible for a male to truly and viscerally understand the situation in the same way as a female - especially a lone female. The best we can do, sadly, is try to show respect and behave as though we might be perceived as a threat until accepted as not.

That’s what Mrs Henrythedog tells me, anyway.

 

[Former member 102963]

And therein lies the problem William, IMHO.

Forgive me for sticking to the old-fashioned ‘two genders’ paradigm; but it’s impossible for a male to truly and viscerally understand the situation in the same way as a female - especially a lone female. The best we can do, sadly, is try to show respect and behave as though we might be perceived as a threat until accepted as not.

That’s what Mrs Henrythedog tells me, anyway.

I think it’s a valuable that we assess our behaviours on a regular basis whether it physical or language to see how we can be better. Whether gender, ethnicity, sexuality and so on. I saw no issue with the OP and didn’t feel that any judgement was handed down from females to males! It’s a fact that the vast majority of women feel fear in certain situations (there has been some very powerful threads on social media including one about how many women would like to take summer late strolls but are scared too). Anything we can do to mitigate that is a great help.

 

[William Garza]

I took down the post because i wont argue semantics.
I stand by what i said in the post
You can live in fear and thats fine
You can live fearless and thats fine

Ime sure most reasonable sane sober moral prudent adults can discriminate bad situations and avoid them.

Putting a-the onus on men RE...XY's per OP... to walk in eggshells, avoid saying,doing,acting in any number of ways smacks of a unconcious bias.

I am very sure there are absolutely many men who have acted a way that would make women fear.
These persons absolutely need to be called out and avoided..
But all groups are not like those...and lumping any and all into groups is reprehensable.

We can all share the road

 

[SabsP]

I thought long to reply here seeing my English might not be sufficient to explain myself correctly.

This article describes rather well what it means for a woman to walk alone.

Five women share their fears on walking alone at night

Five women speak about how they feel when finding themselves alone in public spaces after dark

www.theguardian.com

And yes even on a much safer Camino ( kindred spirits and all of that ) I encountered lots of situations that felt unsafe.
The creepy offer from a hotelowner to give me a massage and already touching me in an inappropiate way.
The retired French guy ( ex military btw ) whom I talked with during a certain coffeebreak and proclaimed later to his male friends that "I fancied him ". Little did he know that my French is better than he thought so I set him straight.
And I could give more examples...
The drunken guy vomiting from his upperbed on my backpack was just disgusting but that is another story...

On other threads I regularly talk about my gut feeling to get me out of akward and / or dangerous situations. It is a good guideline for me.

I am a cisgender female and of course my story is not unique and also M and X can be a victim. IMHO they even have it harder when they are the subject of harassment to tell about it.

 

[m108]

can discriminate bad situations and avoid them

Does this mean that it would be wise for women not to walk alone and not to walk after dark/early in the morning?
"bad situation" is statistically much more common for women when walking alone. It probably goes without saying that most men are physically stronger than most women. And that because of bad experiences with harassment, many more women are sensitive. And bad experiences bring sensitivity, sometimes even fear.

Living without fear is often not just a matter of decision. We can do a lot TOGETHER - men and women.
Sensibility and to hear, empathize with the other's situation (in this case it is a group of people - women who decided to walk alone) would help a lot - maybe it's not so funny if a group of men make inappropriate comments about a woman walking alone.
I like to walk alone, in the summer months on the Camino even early in the morning, in the dark. I would like it to stay that way, despite the fact that I had some unpleasant experiences.
As with so many things - awareness and compassion move mountains, little by little.

 

[mspath]

For other earlier bit still relevant posts on this topic see the thread Solo walking questions

 

[El Cascayal]

I took down the post because i wont argue semantics.
I stand by what i said in the post
You can live in fear and thats fine
You can live fearless and thats fine

Ime sure most reasonable sane sober moral prudent adults can discriminate bad situations and avoid them.

Putting a-the onus on men RE...XY's per OP... to walk in eggshells, avoid saying,doing,acting in any number of ways smacks of a unconcious bias.

I am very sure there are absolutely many men who have acted a way that would make women fear.
These persons absolutely need to be called out and avoided..
But all groups are not like those...and lumping any and all into groups is reprehensable.

We can all share the road

William, what women are telling you here (as well as men who have listened to the women in their life) is “walk a mile in my shoes”. I hope you take a look at this from a woman’s perspective and are able to understand. Buen Camino!

 

[Kitsambler]

You can live in fear and thats fine
You can live fearless and thats fine

To think that fear is a choice is the essence of privilege.

 

[JCarpenter]

I thought long to reply here seeing my English might not be sufficient to explain myself correctly.

This article describes rather well what it means for a woman to walk alone.

Five women share their fears on walking alone at night

Five women speak about how they feel when finding themselves alone in public spaces after dark

www.theguardian.com

And yes even on a much safer Camino ( kindred spirits and all of that ) I encountered lots of situations that felt unsafe.
The creepy offer from a hotelowner to give me a massage and already touching me in an inappropiate way.
The retired French guy ( ex military btw ) whom I talked with during a certain coffeebreak and proclaimed later to his male friends that "I fancied him ". Little did he know that my French is better than he thought so I set him straight.
And I could give more examples...
The drunken guy vomiting from his upperbed on my backpack was just disgusting but that is another story...

On other threads I regularly talk about my gut feeling to get me out of akward and / or dangerous situations. It is a good guideline for me.

I am a cisgender female and of course my story is not unique and also M and X can be a victim. IMHO they even have it harder when they are the subject of harassment to tell about it.

 

[JCarpenter]

I am a woman, and have been under attack, and I still don't think it is logical to assume a group of men is a threat. Some walk the camino work through such anxieties, and it takes a while, I understand. But nothing out of the ordinary non threatening behavior should be levied. Walk as a pilgrim would walk, and enjoy, I say.

 

[frank rawley]

There has been word of solo women feeling intimidated by certain large groups of men walking together on the last 100km to
SdC. If you are in a group of men and passing a lone woman, please be aware of your behaviour and make an extra effort to make her feel safe and unthreatened.

Or, just as importantly, if you see a group of men in any way harassing a woman on the Camino (or anywhere for that matter), please support her by offering to walk with her. She may feel fine and not bothered by the situation, but it can make the world of difference if she feels unsafe to know that she’s not alone.

Thanks for reading x

I thought that we were beyond making broad assumptions and stereotypes about the opposite gender

 

[SabsP]

I thought that we were beyond making broad assumptions and stereotypes about the opposite gender

It is not a broad assumption just common sense/ knowledge.
And of course most men are nice/ gentle and courteous.
But no reason to believe we live in LaIaland.
And yes also women can be predators btw.

 

[William Garza]

William, what women are telling you here (as well as men who have listened to the women in their life) is “walk a mile in my shoes”. I hope you take a look at this from a woman’s perspective and are able to understand. Buen Camino!

I listen to my own council.

They would not walk a mile in mine nor would I ask them..as i just wrote a long post sure to be mis quoted or compared to whatabout isms..
Implying that i cannot look at it from anothers perspective is not a good start.
It implys insensitivities and dullness.

Walk in fear or not
Walk with dangers or not
Walk with imagined dangers or not
Walk with inherent bias singular or plural... or not.
Its not hard.

Again
Asking every man on the Camino to defer to women is impossible..asking isnt..but as realistic adults what is expected to happen?
Nothing.
Outside of this thread,on this subject,on this forum..no one will know about it.

Do men of other cultures with differing sets of norms from every country imaginable care?
I would hope so.
I would hope every man...to be a man and respect others..but hope isnt reality.

This is no indictment of the op nor of you.

Her fears are real and valid
But members pointing out dust in others eyes need be aware of their lenses also.

 

[William Garza]

To think that fear is a choice is the essence of privilege.

It is.
As a disabled person i fear crowds and for my personal safety from jostles and accidents that will paralyse me.
I fear what people at work with nefarious ideation may attempt on my person.
I work anyway.
Living in fear is not living..its existing.

Tripping and falling are real dangers to me
So I choose to walk anyway.

To participate in life instead of coocooning myself against the world.

Any choice is a priviledge any adult male or female can make.
It seems your implying someone may be taking choices away from people?
Or its a socio-economic-pop culture inference?
Its a priviledge to walk a mile
Its a priviledge to not be in pain 24/7
Its a priviledge be able to work a minimum wage job living check to check
I look forward to crutches and wheelchairs before 70
So yes..everythings a priviledge..for now.

 

[J Willhaus]

Sadly, the reach of this forum is limited and the intended audience may never get the message. There have been several times when a woman walking alone has joined us to form a group of 3 or even 4. Not just on the Camino, but on hikes in National Parks here in the US as well.

Let's look out for each other whenever we can.

 

[Kathar1na]

There has been word of solo women feeling intimidated by certain large groups of men walking together on the last 100km to SdC. If you are in a group of men and passing a lone woman, please be aware of your behaviour and make an extra effort to make her feel safe and unthreatened.

Or, just as importantly, if you see a group of men in any way harassing a woman on the Camino (or anywhere for that matter), please support her by offering to walk with her. She may feel fine and not bothered by the situation, but it can make the world of difference if she feels unsafe to know that she’s not alone

@Readey, thank you for posting. I happened to notice that your first posts got over 40 likes. It certainly has an audience here. You pointed out two aspects: first, certain large groups of men walking together on the last 100km to SdC and solo women feeling intimated in this context. I note that you wrote "solo women" which I take to mean some and not all. "Certain large groups of men" - one does not have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that this does not mean "all men". You also tried to raise awareness about situations where "a group of men are in any way harassing a woman on the Camino".

I had not been aware of the first scenario (I walked this section in late autumn) but I can imagine it happening during the summer months.

I've walked about 1800 km to Santiago, all in all, and yep, of course, iffy situations, unsettling situations, and even once open verbal harassment, always involving small local groups - young males and even not so young ones ... it happened. Sometimes with effects that lingered on in my mind, sometimes just a feeling of being annoyed, and thinking "Really???" and quickly forgotten. Simply mentioning this does not mean that I live my life in fear - I'm soo tired of reading such trite platitudes and generalisations.

I was thinking about telling a little anecdote - a nice one - that showed that there is awareness and sensibilation "on the other side" in this context. But I won't. Honestly and regretfully, I hope that the thread will be closed soon. It's been hijacked and is beyond hope of recovering.

 

[Elizabeth Cheung]

Well that escalated quickly. I happen to like the original post. Unlike many of the responses, I took it as meaning that sometimes when you walk alone as a woman, there are groups of men or simply a man who have little if any spacial awareness and that is a pain in the a** . I don''t walk in fear. I doubt most if not all women walking solo do. I'd say we walk with the occasional annoyance and frustration that comes from men on bikes refusing to yield on the trail. men in communal sleeping places being noisy and disrespecting space because they simply take for granted that space means its theirs for the taking. Or simply dealing with men who see any request to alter their behaviour to make it more comfortable for others reacting as if they were just asked to sacrifice a limb for the cause.

 

[Former member 59618]

With threads like these it just never fails to amaze me how some folks completely miss the point, inappropriately centering themselves (when the post isn't about you personally). I can time these comments by the clock.

Stop metaphorically clearing your throat overly explaining our (women's experiences) when the appropriate response is to just accept and listen. No one is taking anything away from you.

 

[C clearly]

Well that escalated quickly.

It sure did! I don't think there is any point in continuing.