• Get your Camino Frances Guidebook here.
  • For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here.
    (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation)
  • ⚠️ Emergency contact in Spain - Dial 112 and AlertCops app. More on this here.

Search 69,459 Camino Questions

A sad day on the Camino Frances today.

gregdedman

Active Member
Hi there everyone,

I just wanted to share with you all a disturbing incident I witnessed yesterday on the Camino Frances between Rabanal Del Camino and Manjarin.

I was in the middle of a snow storm but had fought through to lay my momento down at the Cruz de Ferro, like thousands of other pilgrims before me and like I had done once before, in 2007. That time it was a shell, from the Scottish beach where my late mothers ashes were scattered that I had collected and walked from St Jean to the traditional resting place on the mountain.

I was saddened to see that my shell, plus the hundreds of trinkets, keyrings, messages and personal items left on the cross back then have also dissapeared.
I though at the time, maybe the government do this, clear the cross for other pilgrims to leave their memories or worries, but what I witnessed next forced me into action.

I watched through the snow, a Spanish couple, in their 60´s pull up in their car, jump out to take a photo by the cross, then as I turned to leave the lady began ´collecting´ stones and a keyring.
She collected 4, disrespectfully threw one she didnt like the look of and came down the mound to her waiting husband in their luxurious 4x4.
I walked over to her to ask her what she was doing, but she didnt understand, I asked her husband, who spoke English and I asked if they were taking these itmes, he said ´yes´.
Shocjes, I asked him if he knew why these trinkets were here, and he told me the story of every pilgrim bringing a rock or something personal from their home to lay on the mound. So once I was sure he understood, I bluntly told them not to steal and to replace the items.
The woman returned to the mound and returned all but one of the items, my friend later telling me that she had seen the woman pocket the keyring.

I may have missed something here.
Is it tradtion for Spanish people to take a pilgrim momento from this place on the Camino? Do the government clear the items as a matter of health and safety or is this all down to pure human disrespect. My shell was a memorial to my mother, but it is gone forever and the hundreds of other very special items appear to have vanished also.

All day today I have been troubled by this incident, wondering if nothing is sacred anymore, where has the repect for one another gone in the world? The Camino for sure has its good and bad points, but for me, yesterday was a very sad day.
Your thoughts and comments on this would be much apreciated for me to maybe further understand the deeper aspects of what appears to be happening on certain parts of the camino Frances.

Kind regards
Greg Dedman
 
Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
I would so love to know what prompted them to do that! Personally, I'd have to say, besides the fact that it's almost like grave robbing....taking something someone put down to leave behind a sorrow or pain or ill...would simply be really bad karma! Who would want to pick up someone else's talisman of pain or guilt or whatever. In some small way I'd feel like I could catch it, almost like a cold. I know that's not logical...just an emotional response...

Very very creepy sort of behavior.
 
That was a great story- thanks for sharing it.

My initial reaction is that, there underneath the Cruz, you encountered what I often consider the central message of the Camino- our worldly expectations.

Think about how you felt the day you laid that shell on the Cruz in memory of your mother: the memories, the emotions, the intent you had in that gesture. Now that the shell is gone, though, you are upset and questioning what became of it. But does the fact that the shell is gone change anything about that initial moment? Does it change any of the great memories you have of your mother or what she meant to you? No matter if the shell is still on the Cruz three years later, broken or even in some thief's cache, it can't change what is inside of you regarding your mom.

I think I see the same principle operating when some peregrinos reach Santiago and feel somewhat let down- where are the choruses of angels? the new perspective? the change that they came seeking? Well, the Camino never promised anyone that, and one shouldn't be upset if it wasn't delivered.

On a separate note, thanks for confronting those folks on the mound- they should be held accountable for their actions and I'll bet many passers-by would not have stopped them. But even if they return the next day, you've done your part and you should feel good about that.
 
Technical backpack for day trips with backpack cover and internal compartment for the hydration bladder. Ideal daypack for excursions where we need a medium capacity backpack. The back with Air Flow System creates large air channels that will keep our back as cool as possible.

€83,-
This is a very unpleasant thing to have happened. I am sorry.
However, I would hesitate before thinking that it was a Spanish habit to do this, because of the actions of only two people.
 
Transport luggage-passengers.
From airports to SJPP
Luggage from SJPP to Roncevalles
This post gave me good "food for thought" for a whole day. Thank you Greg!

Your question I think explains why it´s rocks that people usually leave up there. Rocks are worthless to most casual passers-by.

The Cruz de Ferro is a dropping-off place for burdens, supposedly -- and expectations. You carry an object with you from home, it is charged with all the expectations or emotions pertaining to some personal issue or situation. You lay it down there, in a symbolic way you are laying that burden before the Cross. You are putting that situation in the hands of the Almighty, the Universe, the Camino, or whatever higher power you believe in. And then you WALK AWAY. You aren´t carrying that heavy load any more.

The object you leave there is just an object. The great meaning you attach to it on your Way has no meaning at all to the next jamoke who approaches the pile. Sanctifying objects that are left out in a public place, exposed to the weather, is a zero-sum equation.

So as a Buddhist in training, I think that if someone left his key ring or ribbon or shell behind at the Cruz de Ferro, it was his to leave behind. He´s let it go. He´s not going back to look for it, because the object has served its function and is now part of the past. If some wandering soul feels he needs to pick it up and take it home, well? Who is he stealing it from?

The Cruz de Ferro is indeed a holy place. But if you´re a souvenir-hunter, it´s just a big pile of rocks and rubbish with a few goodies mixed in. Or a photo-op for bus tourists. It´s not a place to leave any object with any value beyond the symbolic. More than anything, it´s not a place to go looking for stuff. It´s a place to leave stuff behind.
(Thus saith the Reb.)
 
I left a special memory there in the shape of a laminated photograph which I secreted within the cross in the hope that it would remain there in July 2006.

In January 2009 I passed that way again, in the snow and was intrguiged to see if it was still there?
Not to be, it had gone. I had not planned to go on this route again and had thus had no expectation when I left it, only sorrow and sadness and the feeling of wanting to let go and move on. I was neither disappointed or surprised that it was not there, but I took care not to touch or disturb anything left by someone else. There seems a kind of sacred reverence about what people choose and decide to leave there and I feel uncomfortable that others feel free to disturb the emotions and energy left by others.
 
Down bag (90/10 duvet) of 700 fills with 180 g (6.34 ounces) of filling. Mummy-shaped structure, ideal when you are looking for lightness with great heating performance.

€149,-
I do not know how many people that pass the cruz every year, but the amount of stones and all the things people leave there gets bigger and bigger for each year. I guess my stones from my visits will have been buried very quickly if 50000-100000 people walk up there and leave something each year.
ranthr
 
For me, this is just another wonderful lesson of the Camino.

Nothing really belongs to us.
Absolutely NOTHING.
We come into life wearing nothing, owning nothing.
We leave the same way.

The things we buy, make, use or claim are only loans.. temporarily with us.
We are mistaken when we claim ownership.

I'm just as guilty. I panicked when I thought my pacer poles might get stolen.
It's a lesson for everyone.
But you must choose...
Do you like feeling upset?
Or would you rather have peace?

Here is a parable from the Bhagavata Purana. I read it in The Song of the bird by Anthony de Mello:

A crow once flew into the sky
with a piece of meat in its beak.
Twenty crows set out in pursuit
of it and attacked it viciously.

The crow finally let the piece of meat drop.
Its pursuers then left it alone and flew shrieking after the morsel.

Said the crow, "I've lost the meat and gained this peaceful sky."


Let it go... and gain peace.
 
I agree that this is a good teaching moment for all. We are only stewards of this earth. We are to care not only for our selves, body, mind and soul but to help others to do the same. This includes objects we deem to be "valuable" in one form or another. We are including rocks return to dust.

Kim
 
Technical backpack for day trips with backpack cover and internal compartment for the hydration bladder. Ideal daypack for excursions where we need a medium capacity backpack. The back with Air Flow System creates large air channels that will keep our back as cool as possible.

€83,-
Whoever thought that such an apparently mundane event as this could spawn such a thought-provoking thread? When I read the initial post, I thought, a pox on that lady's house, how classless is that, to steal a keyring from the cruz? But leave it to Rebekah, Telluridewalker, Kim, Annie, and others, to draw a larger meaning, and lesson, from that simple event. I am such a nuts and bolts, here and now kind of person that I never would have thought of this in a bigger way without your incredibly insightful observations. You have given me a lot to think about, thanks so much.

Laurie
 
We humans have the tendency to get emotionally attach to material things, or to relate memories and feelings to an object, especially personal items, to do the Camino is to realize that we are more than that, when I passed the "Cruz de Ferro" last september, I though about all those things around the cross, I respect what other pilgrims believe, but I think is much better to leave just a stone, this tradition began with that simbolism (a stone from home, as big as your sins), but some people change it, leaving pictures and other personal items, its ok if some want to do that, but dont expect to find those items again, be ready to accept that, and accepting that sets you free.

Guillermo Llanes
From Mexico
 
This is a lovely insightful stream . . .. and one I've thought about a lot. I've carried little rocks from home and deposited them at different places.... the only place I've been back to even think about looking for the rock I left was Finisterre. I'd left my son's special rock on the arm of the cross at the Cabo, which was pretty crowded at the time. It was special! On returning...... the cross had been moved to a new position only recently, and of course, all the bits and bobs were gone, a new collection starting, and soon the arms of the cross would be full again. And so it goes on . . . .

There's no way, the thousands of items left can remain, as long a thousands more are coming along with yet more items to deposit, crosses would disappear under the mountains of 'stuff' ...... and nature takes its course, or I like to think, the authorities sometimes do a clear up and maybe use the rocks, etc to build more camino paths. I like that thought, helping to build the path. Dust to dust . . .. Life goes on . . .

Think about the Tibetan Buddhist mandala..... hours, days, weeks spent carefully and lovingly making the wonderfully coloured sand picture . . . such precision, such care . . .. then what happens?? When it's finished, it's destroyed, a sweep of the hand and it's returned to a pile of sand again. Nothing is permanent, life is change . . .. the camino teaches this. Let it go.
Carole.
 
New Original Camino Gear Designed Especially with The Modern Peregrino In Mind!
Actually, those rocks are pretty durable:
Atoms are almost as old as time; they got their energy from the Big Bang about 13.7 billion years ago. Sometime in the first three minutes of the Big Bang, all the basic stuff that atoms are made of got created.
I am curious where the "stackers" got their start. Pebbles now appear on top of virtually everything along the Camino, particularly the kilometer waymarks. Since these stones probably are not from home, when did the "tradition" of stacking begin? How much of a burden is left behind if you pick up a rock and move it two feet?
 
Stone cairns are as old as time. Every continent has a history of carrying stones from one place to another and adding them to a pile. The pre-Roman Celts marked the high mountains with piles of rocks and the pile at the Cruz - thought to have been a 'murias' in honour of Mercury - was Christianized by Gaucelmo who placed an iron cross on the top of the wooden stake.
Some sources say the Galician harvesters created the pile of stones to show travellers the way over the mountain. (Walter Starkie, who walked 4 pilgrimages between 1934 and 1954 never mentioned the Cruz de Ferro.)
In the Umfolozi Game Reserve (about 2hours from my home) there is an ancient stone pile called an isVivane. The cairns were used by Zulu people to mark a spot where a traveller had died. They continued to place a stone on the pile as a sign of respect and also because they believe that the spirits - umaDlozi - would protect them for the rest of their journey.
 

Attachments

  • Umfolozi Cairn 025.jpg
    Umfolozi Cairn 025.jpg
    78.6 KB · Views: 8,274
Down bag (90/10 duvet) of 700 fills with 180 g (6.34 ounces) of filling. Mummy-shaped structure, ideal when you are looking for lightness with great heating performance.

€149,-
sillydoll said:
Walter Starkie, who walked 4 pilgrimages between 1934 and 1954 never mentioned the Cruz de Ferro.

Sil - I was aware of that which made me wonder whether the practice of taking a stone on the pilgrimage and placing it at the Cruz de Ferro was a modern practice - the existence of cairnmaking generally notwithstanding. And where did the saying that is "meant" to be read out come from?

Regards

John
 
Starkie must have missed it; it seems to have been around since at least the early 17th century. I almost missed it in the fog once...

Una de las más antiguas referencias a la Cruz de Ferro se encuentra en la obra de Alonso de Castillo Solórzano: "Ellos que habían subido a la cumbre del áspero puerto del Rabanal, topáronse en el primero llano con la Cruz de Ferro, tan nombrada de los que caminan por aquella tierra, y hallando buena ocasión Marcos, que la había visto otra vez que se le ofreció ir a Astorga, dijo a su compañía: -Dominga; ésta es aquella Cruz de Ferro tan conocida de todos los de nuestra tierra, a quien las doncellas de allá, que pasan por aquí, hacen su oración, pero no el voto que dicen, de no volver como pasaron" Tardes entretenidas, Madrid, 1625. Novela tercera: El Proteo de Madrid.

"... en la tal información supo cuán cerca estaba de la Cruz de ferro, tan nombrada en aquella tierra; pasó por cerca della y hízola oración, sin tener cuidado de la promesa que todas las gallegas la hacen..." La niña de los embustes, Teresa de Manzanares, Barcelona, 1632. Cap. I.
 
Its always been there but I was trying to suggest that the tradition of bringing a stone from home and placing it there was'nt around 60 or 70 years ago. I don't think Georgiana Goddard King mentioned it either.
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
Hi everybody, let me tell you a lttle secret, or maybe is not a secret, nonetheless how old this tradition is, almost every stone there was originally taken from no more than 50 meters, because most pilgrims never heard about this place before they get there, they see this big pile of stones and rocks, then they choose some stone nearby and put it there....so no big deal...bringing a stone from home, just another burden (personal or spiritual), but like I said, I respect what each person believes...

Buen Camino Pilgrims !
 
I'm a geologist, and to me, that mound is fascinating. Those rocks really do come from all over the world.

Fortunately for me, one of our local rocks is pumice, from the explosion which produced Crater lake.
Nice light rock to carry--so light ot floats, which is good because I hauled it all the way from Le Puy.

If it ends up as someone's souvenir so be it, there ought to be some karma in that for me.
 
newfydog said:
Fortunately for me, one of our local rocks is pumice, from the explosion which produced Crater lake.
Nice light rock to carry--so light ot floats, which is good because I hauled it all the way from Le Puy.
Fortuantely for me too! I collected and carried our two little rocks from our local Volcàn Barva, which weighed next to nothing. Then the last time we went, I forgot the new additions. They're still at home waiting for still a next time! Anne
 
Down bag (90/10 duvet) of 700 fills with 180 g (6.34 ounces) of filling. Mummy-shaped structure, ideal when you are looking for lightness with great heating performance.

€149,-
newfydog said:
I'm a geologist, and to me, that mound is fascinating. Those rocks really do come from all over the world.Fortunately for me, one of our local rocks is pumice, from the explosion which produced Crater lake. Nice light rock to carry--so light ot floats, which is good because I hauled it all the way from Le Puy.
One of our local rocks is pumice as well- can be found mainly on beaches. Has floated down there via rivers after the Taupo Eruption. I had never thought of carrying it. If I am ever passing the Cruz de Ferro again, I will have to take some!!!
Margaret
 
Im still wonder how many people really knows about this tradition before they get there, because I saw many of them picking stones around the "Cruz de ferro" at the moment I was there. I know many of you are experts in recognizing in few minutes the geological origin of this pretty pile of stones, even when I know you dont have any special equipment to trace down the age of each particular piece in that place at the very moment you get there. I mean, is that important to know if those stones are from all over the world? think about it ! Are we reacting in some predisposed manner ? please dont think about the answer, think about the question.....

Buen Camino
 
Join our full-service guided tour and let us convert you into a Pampered Pilgrim!
Rebekah Scott said:
sometimes a rock is just a rock.


aaaack! To a geologist every rock is a work of art! With a long story.

I'll add that it doesn't take much geological knowledge to look at that pile and see that most of the artwork was picked up locally. The real masterpieces to me are the ones which obviously have an interesting last (but not final) chapter. If someone takes one of them, they are just adding one more episode.

By the way, has anyone EVER been there when it wasn't foggy and miserable? Even the coffee table books show it like that.
 
:oops: I agree with the geologist - but for more sentimental reasons!
Every walk I do, I collect a stone from the start and another from the finish. I have got a gallery of small, box picture frames in my guest bathroom with stones and a momento of each walk.
My favourite piece of camino jewellry is a leather cord with a small stone in a wire frame. I got it from Pepe on the Aragones trail last year and it is precious! Forget silver, gold or diamonds - give me a stone anyday!
 

Attachments

  • Stones 2004.jpg
    Stones 2004.jpg
    20.1 KB · Views: 7,157
  • Stones small.jpg
    Stones small.jpg
    20.3 KB · Views: 7,153
A selection of Camino Jewellery
newfydog said:
By the way, has anyone EVER been there when it wasn't foggy and miserable? Even the coffee table books show it like that.
I have seen photos on people's blogs with the Cross against a brilliant blue sky! (If I have time later, I will search and find one.....) But I know when I was there, I could barely see my hand in front of my nose....
Margaret
 
2007
 

Attachments

  • 2007 Cruz 3 003.jpg
    2007 Cruz 3 003.jpg
    37.2 KB · Views: 7,079
Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
Thanks for the pictures! It seemed unlikely that there could be a place in Spain where the sun never shines, but that cruz seemed to be a candidate.
 
newfydog said:
Thanks for the pictures! It seemed unlikely that there could be a place in Spain where the sun never shines, but that cruz seemed to be a candidate.

Margaret and Newfydog call me paranoid but I think those shots are photoshopped. Sil et al are just messing with our heads.... :lol:
 
sillydoll said:
Every walk I do, I collect a stone from the start and another from the finish. I have got a gallery of small, box picture frames in my guest bathroom with stones and a momento of each walk. ----- Forget silver, gold or diamonds - give me a stone anyday!
Sil, these look wonderful. What a great way to remember your walks, with stones!

And Nell, I do indeed think you must be right: Photoshop has to be the explanation! Here are some photos of the mist the day I was up there. http://chemincamino08.blogspot.com/2008/07/24-june-rabanal-to-molinaseca.html. In fact the mist was much thicker to my eyes than it appears here: somehow the camera was able to see better than I was....
Margaret
 
Very light, comfortable and compressible poncho. Specially designed for protection against water for any activity.

Our Atmospheric H30 poncho offers lightness and waterproofness. Easily compressible and made with our Waterproof fabric, its heat-sealed interior seams guarantee its waterproofness. Includes carrying bag.

€60,-
Margaret, congratulations on your blog, very nice story as well as your pics, I realize how diferent look the camino in that time of the year. Let me ask you, in Spain do you remember how many days of rain you had?

Buen Camino
 
Actually, in Spain in June I never struck very many wet days. (I had more in France in April/ May). But there are two 'key' very wet days I remember very well- the morning I was leaving Roncesvalles it was pouring down very heavily- and similarly the day I was hoping to reach Santiago the weather was so bad we called a halt for the day at Monte de Gozo.

There were a few days when there was some rain, but not generally a lot. A bigger issue for me was that it was, surprisingly, bitterly cold at times, especially around the Azofra, Granon region before reaching Burgos. I had posted home my good windjacket in Estella and quite a few days I had reason to wish I still had it with me! But I have since heard that June 2008 was the coldest June for about ten years.
Margaret
 
Hi all,

I just wanted to post a comparison photo regarding the topic of this thread, items being taken 'en-masse' from the Cruz de Ferro.

This photos was taken in the summer of 2007 where you can see plenty of personal items

4hpe9j.jpg


And the same spot in the winter of 2010 where you can clearly see it stripped

2utrg93.jpg


Now I know they are items left, let go of, thrown out into the universe, but still, it fills me with a little disappointment when I wonder why people still take.
 
Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
I wonder if this is not a question of "people taking" rather than government, or some other group, "cleaning up."

In my town we maintain a Free Box, a place downtown where people can drop off their unwanted stuff, and others can come pick it up for free. The idea is great but the execution requires more maintenance than you might think. About once a week the town employees come through and clean the entire box out, otherwise it will fill to overflowing with stuff (and junk and garbage). I wonder if someone or some organization is just doing regular maintenance to keep the Cruz de Ferro from becoming an unwieldy and unsightly mess.
 
This is what I was wondering however, my experience that day at the Cruz meant that all
I saw was a form of dis-respect, theft, greed whatever you want to call it.

I hoped that someone had knowledge of such a government system of removal but so far
noone seems to know of anything.
 
In Nancy Frey's book (1998) she comments on the stones, especially the elaborately marked stone, being removed - by whom she did not know.
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
This is incredibly sad as placing my trinket at the Crux de fero was the emotional climax of my pilgrimage. I had placed an amythest that my sons had found in a beautiful stream in the north of England.
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
Hey Lillian, you still had your 'Mermaid' locks!! You'll have to change your name now - maybe "Mama-Lill" after all the babas you've delivered!!
 
What happens there, reflects what happens in the universe, things and people are not meant to stay forever in the same place in the universe all the time, if that is a fact, with all due respect, what should be sad about this ? .. our mind, our spirit, its more than that ! "El Camino de Santiago" must make us remember that, if we really walked it. But to really walk the "camino" means that it is the "camino" that walks us.

Buen Camino Pilgrims !!!!
 
€2,-/day will present your project to thousands of visitors each day. All interested in the Camino de Santiago.
Life is about change. You are so right Mexicanpilgrim. To live well is to embrace change, to accept it, to always be prepared to learn something new.... I think "el camino" teaches this.... when we are prepared to listen.

.... and when the blisters are quiet!
 
I love change, because it is that one thing for sure in all processes of life, it is our essence and it is what it allows that new and good things happen, the problem is that our mindset its against it, we naturally prefer a state without changes. Our way of life have deceived us, and it has made us believe the opposite. "El Camino" has made me think that we need a new consciousness as human beings, it will inevitably arrive, in the near future, we cannot do nothing against it. We have to accept that !....
 
Sunrise at the cruz:




Very sunny indeed..giving nice depiction of the business in the sky... mid-Oct 2010.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_5269.JPG
    IMG_5269.JPG
    34.2 KB · Views: 5,708
  • _DSF8038.jpg
    _DSF8038.jpg
    33.5 KB · Views: 5,698
  • IMG_5274.JPG
    IMG_5274.JPG
    40.4 KB · Views: 5,696
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
[quote="newfydog... If someone takes one of them, they are just adding one more episode. /quote]

If adding interesting anicdotes or episodes is the objective, why not take the money from the donation boxes in the albergues? Better yet, if you see a nice rucksack, exchange it with your own when the pilgrim goes into the shower. You might be able to upgrade your rucksack two or three times between SJPP and Santiago. Just think of the nice equipment you will have, and the story you can tell when you get home.
 
Not everybody see it that way, that is the problem, the camino is there for all kinds of people, and there is nothing we can do about it, only to forgive those who do things against our will or against our way of thinking. Forgiveness is that one thing you get in your mind all the way until you reach that hill after Pamplona, in "El Alto del Perdon", for those who really walk through there, forgiveness is one thing to remember all the time, and not only to forgive other people, but to forgive yourself..
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
I would have been very surprised if you would have been able to find the shell you left in memory of your mother three years hence, with the tens of thousands of pilgrims who pass that way each year, each leaving some memento. You might have to dig down through a foot or two of stones to find where you left it.
Nonetheless, as others have said, you have your memories, and the shell was only a token for laying those memories at the foot of the cross ... the action of doing so was the important thing, not the token. Be blessed by your memories +
 
newfydog said:
Rebekah Scott said:
sometimes a rock is just a rock.


aaaack! To a geologist every rock is a work of art! With a long story.

I'll add that it doesn't take much geological knowledge to look at that pile and see that most of the artwork was picked up locally.

Surely a stone is NOT a work of art.

Beautiful objects are found in nature, but art is a consciously constructed object, and can only be made by man, not nature. A geologist may find a stone beautiful, but it is the opposite of art.
 
Cruz de Ferro a cairn that marks the highest point on the road. Its made of rocks that people have piled on it.

I was annoyed that people left other 'stuff'. It gave the site the resemblance of a rubbish heap.

A basic backpacking principle is that you take only pictures and leave only footprints. Leaving an extra rock on a cairn or waymarker such as Cruz de Ferro is acceptable; leaving other JUNK, no matter how sentimental, is not.

I am glad to see that some people are cleaning up the garbage being left behind.

Same same for many other locations where monuments have been 'adorned'. The 100 km marker is a good example.
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
whariwharangi said:
Cruz de Ferro a cairn that marks the highest point on the road. Its made of rocks that people have piled on it.

I was annoyed that people left other 'stuff'. It gave the site the resemblance of a rubbish heap.

A basic backpacking principle is that you take only pictures and leave only footprints. Leaving an extra rock on a cairn or waymarker such as Cruz de Ferro is acceptable; leaving other JUNK, no matter how sentimental, is not.

I am glad to see that some people are cleaning up the garbage being left behind.

Same same for many other locations where monuments have been 'adorned'. The 100 km marker is a good example.

Yes, The trash and grafitti are frustrating and we can all do our little bit to put it right. I quite like the Cruz de Ferro though, with its eclectic mix of 'stuff'. It's somewhere where pilgrims can let go and express themselves even if it isn't to everyone's taste. Buen Camino!
 
I respect art, and some "Graffiti" is really good and brings a smile to the face or evokes a train of thought. But I have to confess that seeing the thoughtless "Joe Bloggs 01/01/2001" or "Bill and Sue" type adornment add little to the environment.
allan
 
Jubilado said:
Surely a stone is NOT a work of art.

Beautiful objects are found in nature, but art is a consciously constructed object, and can only be made by man, not nature. A geologist may find a stone beautiful, but it is the opposite of art.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but in MY opinion, nature IS the Creator's work of art.
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
Anniesantiago said:
Jubilado said:
Surely a stone is NOT a work of art.

Beautiful objects are found in nature, but art is a consciously constructed object, and can only be made by man, not nature. A geologist may find a stone beautiful, but it is the opposite of art.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but in MY opinion, nature IS the Creator's work of art.

Thanks for your opinion AnnieSantiago but please consider two uncontroversial standard definitions;

Art - the expression or application of human skill and imagination.
Art -is a diverse range of human activities.

It must then be that from "nature" - storm, tsunamis, volcanoes, hurricane, flood, species extinction, disease etc - these are also your Creator's works of art?

I will happily change my views if you have evidence for what you say about a Creator producing art or anything.

Apart from all this -what's more important is - have a Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year.! :D
 
I am almost certain that I read somewhere that this site was periodically "cleaned up" by the local government to make space for future pilgrims. As stated - once you arrive and leave your memento - the task is accomplished - known only to you - God - and your fellow pilgrims. Once left - you move on to the next chapter of your life.

Buen Camino
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
I guess it's all relative. When I saw people on video walking over other peoples rocks(Momentos, prayer rocks) I thought that was disrespectful. Just to get theirs closer to the cross.
I plan on throwing mine rather than trying to get to the top.
 
zakosdad said:
I am almost certain that I read somewhere that this site was periodically "cleaned up" by the local government to make space for future pilgrims. As stated - once you arrive and leave your memento - the task is accomplished - known only to you - God - and your fellow pilgrims. Once left - you move on to the next chapter of your life.

Buen Camino

I saw a post today, forget where, which said that prisoners were sent to clean up rubbish and eliminate eyesores.

Sisyphus comes to mind. :|
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Dear Greg-- first off, thank you for posting. You may have opened many eyes today to the realities of The Camino. Now, let's attempt to recalibrate your expectations of humanity. :wink:

The moment you placed your item in la Cruz de Fierro it belonged no longer to you, hence the name, offering. What belonged to you was the thought, the preparation, the selection, the execution. What remains yours is the comfort (...or not) of the moment and the memories. The physicalities of an item placed by a cross is a reality that what while many hold significant it means nothing to just as many. I would expect that the vast majority of people would have and show some respect, but I am not surprised at all that someone would treat it as a Flea Market or a junk yard. After all, many pilgrims may have converted the spot into a junk yard, which locals may have a point if they complain about it.

I personally would not take anything out of a place like that, but certainly have no expectations whatsoever that once I am gone the one(s) behind me would have the same values I do. This experience you just witnessed was actually an offering to you; to help you realize people have their own realities. They will bear the consequences of their behavior. Find peace on that.
 
Eventually, things need to be removed. Take a look at the enormous pile of artwork that nature deposited in the Grand Canyon. Those layers accumulated grain by grain, shell by shell. The Cruz is a geologic phenomenon at high speed, deposition of rocks and mementos piling up ever higher.

I would hope that 100 years from now the Cruz would look much the same as today, rather than a massive pile of trinkets. Even the rocks will overwhelm it in time. If my rocks get hauled off and used as gravel somewhere along the way to preserve the nature of the spot, it will be fine with me.
 

Most read last week in this forum

When I hiked the Frances Route this happened. I was hiking in the afternoon just east of Arzua. I was reserved a bed at an albergue in Arzua, so I had already hiked all the way from San Xulien...
I am finalizing my packing list for Frances, and do not want to over pack. (I am 71) I will be starting at SJPdP on April 25th to Roncesvalles and forward. I was hoping on some advise as to...
First marker starting from Albergue Monasterio de la Magdalena in Sarria (113.460 km) Start: 2023.9.29 07:22 Arrival: 2023.9.30 13:18 walking time : 26 hours 47 minutes rest time : 3 hours 8...
A local Navarra website has posted a set of photos showing today's snowfall in the area around Roncesvalles. About 15cm of snow fell this morning surprising pilgrims on the way...
Hi! I’m a first time pilgrim. Is it possible to take a taxi from Astorga to Foncebadon? Thanks, Felicia
HI all, I will be starting my walk on March 31, taking the Valcarlos Route, and am having trouble getting in touch with the albergue in Valcarlos (tried email and what's app - no luck!). Does...

❓How to ask a question

How to post a new question on the Camino Forum.

Forum Rules

Forum Rules

Camino Updates on YouTube

Camino Conversations

Most downloaded Resources

This site is run by Ivar at

in Santiago de Compostela.
This site participates in the Amazon Affiliate program, designed to provide a means for Ivar to earn fees by linking to Amazon
Official Camino Passport (Credential) | 2024 Camino Guides
Back
Top