A very expensive day on the Camino

[Deleted member 43985]

5,800 Euro fine for those caught in the storm last week on the Pyrenees but helicopter charges are still pending. Expensive lapse of judgement...

http://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/soc...factura-5800-euros-dos-peregrinos-su-rescate/

 

[alansykes]

I am sorry that they got hit by such a big charge, but hope it stops others from being so irresponsible. A friend of mine in the local mountain rescue team where I live got badly injured helping to rescue a cretin who went up Blencathra in a blizzard wearing trainers. It's not just their own lives these people can endanger.

 

[dougfitz]

5,800 Euro fine for those caught in the storm last week on the Pyrenees but helicopter charges are still pending. Expensive lapse of judgement...

http://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/soc...factura-5800-euros-dos-peregrinos-su-rescate/

This doesn't appear to be a fine, rather the rescue service and other agency fees for mounting the rescue. There is still the service fees for the medical helicopter deployed by the health services to come, along with any fine.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

A bit of a 2x4 between the eyes for mules too stubborn to listen!

 

[domigee]

Not a fine. The 5360 € are to pay for : the use of the rescue helicopter and 12 hrs work for 11 people. The 450 € are to pay 4 people for 3 hrs work and the use of a land vehicle.
Still to come: fees for medical care and use of medical helicopter for both rescues.
This will be charged by the Health Dpt.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The 5360 € are to pay for : the use of the rescue helicopter and 12 hrs work for 11 people. The 450 € are to pay 4 people for 3 hrs work and the use of a land vehicle

That is about 25,000 Brasilian Real...

 

[marbuck]

Very pleased to see that the user pays system is alive and well in Spain. We could do with a bit more of it here in Australia. The Search & Rescue teams are always out rescuing fools who should not be out there. They put too many other lives at risk.

 

[Saint Mike II]

or at least a nominee for a coveted Darwin Award!

You beat me to the quote. Maybe we need a sign at the start of the Napoleon Trail inviting those attempting to cross when its closed to fill out their "Darwin Award" nominations.
Congratulations also to the local authorities for coming down real heavy on these *****. Cheers

 

[Saint Mike II]

Not a fine. The 5360 € are to pay for : the use of the rescue helicopter and 12 hrs work for 11 people. The 450 € are to pay 4 people for 3 hrs work and the use of a land vehicle.
Still to come: fees for medical care and use of medical helicopter for both rescues.
This will be charged by the Health Dpt.

So how insistent will the Spanish or provincial authorities been on enforcing the payments?? I ask just so that anyone else who reads this will know what they are really up for. I don't think travel insurance covers you for being a stupid fool!!

 

[dougfitz]

Congratulations also to the local authorities for coming down real heavy

@Saint Mike II, I don't see how seeking cost recovery for the rescue is 'coming down real heavy' - that is just business - a charge for the use of the resources consumed. What might give an indication of how the appropriate judicial authority see this will be the level of any fine, should it transpire that they have actually broken the law as well as being reckless.

 

[Deleted member 43985]

This doesn't appear to be a fine, rather the rescue service and other agency fees for mounting the rescue. There is still the service fees for the medical helicopter deployed by the health services to come, along with any fine.

Agreed, my wording was incorrect. I fully support pay per use fees as the Spanish people certainly don't deserve to pay for the mistakes of people who ignore their rules and laws.

 

[RobertS26]

But . . . but . . . but . . . it was "their" Camino. Shouldn't they be allowed to do it "their" way? [Please note the sarcasm.]

 

[VNwalking]

Not to defend the indefensible--and I'm glad there are consequences so as to deter others who stubbornly do what they want, regardless.
And........May this never happen to any of us...
(Speaking for myself, deluded stupidity sometimes doesn't seem that way at the time. I've been fortunate to have gotten away with doing some pretty risky things in my life, under the silly idea illusion of "It won't happen to me." It didn't. But fortunately now I know it could, if I'm not careful. Age is a blessing.)

 

[William Marques]

They did it "their" way and it cost them. [Please note lack of sarcasm]

 

[koilife]

What might give an indication of how the appropriate judicial authority see this will be the level of any fine, should it transpire that they have actually broken the law as well as being reckless.

That raises several interesting questions.

Did they actually break any laws?

If so, then 1) Are the laws consistent between Spain and France? 2) Is there an obligation on the part of the level of government passing the law to provide adequate notification in the form of language-independent signage?

Regardless of whether there is an actual law, I suggest that the various confraternities all contribute to supporting a set of signs that indicate whether the Route Napoleon is open or closed. When closed, these could redirect people towards the Valcarlos route. One set of signs would be on the road out of SJPdP, and another leading out of Orrison. If well designed, it would solve the problem of those who don't stop in the SJPdP pilgrim office, as well as those who have a language barrier (I recall a number of the 2013 rescues were South Korean and had a legitimate language barrier).

I for one would be willing to contribute to such a cause directly or through APOC.

 

[Deleted member 43985]

That raises several interesting questions.

Did they actually break any laws?

If so, then 1) Are the laws consistent between Spain and France? 2) Is there an obligation on the part of the level of government passing the law to provide adequate notification in the form of language-independent signage?

Regardless of whether there is an actual law, I suggest that the various confraternities all contribute to supporting a set of signs that indicate whether the Route Napoleon is open or closed. When closed, these could redirect people towards the Valcarlos route. One set of signs would be on the road out of SJPdP, and another leading out of Orrison. If well designed, it would solve the problem of those who don't stop in the SJPdP pilgrim office, as well as those who have a language barrier (I recall a number of the 2013 rescues were South Korean and had a legitimate language barrier).

I for one would be willing to contribute to such a cause directly or through APOC.

When I embarked on the CF in January the staff at the Pilgrim Office made it abundantly clear that Napoleon was closed and Valcarlos was the ONLY option. They backed this up by marking the route on the map they handed out to everyone with huge red X's along the Napoleon. Their final step was to literally stand at the last intersection where one could choose Napoleon vs Valcarlos in the morning as we left and gently guide everyone to the right road to head up the Valcarlos route. The French staff are really to be commended for their efforts in this. As such, if anyone purposely connived their way around all this warning and directives, I honestly don't believe another sign on the road would deter them. In the end we must all be responsible, morally and financially, for our own actions. In this instance it was a minor miracle for these people to be alive. Were it not for the skill and efforts of the SAR teams it would be well possible to read much, much worse news last week.

 

[koilife]

When I embarked on the CF in January the staff at the Pilgrim Office made it abundantly clear that Napoleon was closed and Valcarlos was the ONLY option. They backed this up by marking the route on the map they handed out to everyone with huge red X's along the Napoleon. Their final step was to literally stand at the last intersection where one could choose Napoleon vs Valcarlos in the morning as we left and gently guide everyone to the right road to head up the Valcarlos route. The French staff are really to be commended for their efforts in this. As such, if anyone purposely connived their way around all this warning and directives, I honestly don't believe another sign on the road would deter them. In the end we must all be responsible, morally and financially, for our own actions. In this instance it was a minor miracle for these people to be alive. Were it not for the skill and efforts of the SAR teams it would be well possible to read much, much worse news last week.

Agreed. But not everyone stops in the pilgrim's office.

 

[Jo Ann Rademacher]

That raises several interesting questions.

Did they actually break any laws?

If so, then 1) Are the laws consistent between Spain and France? 2) Is there an obligation on the part of the level of government passing the law to provide adequate notification in the form of language-independent signage?

Regardless of whether there is an actual law, I suggest that the various confraternities all contribute to supporting a set of signs that indicate whether the Route Napoleon is open or closed. When closed, these could redirect people towards the Valcarlos route. One set of signs would be on the road out of SJPdP, and another leading out of Orrison. If well designed, it would solve the problem of those who don't stop in the SJPdP pilgrim office, as well as those who have a language barrier (I recall a number of the 2013 rescues were South Korean and had a legitimate language barrier).

I for one would be willing to contribute to such a cause directly or through APOC.

There are already signs at the intersection where both routes begin outside of SJPP.

 

[koilife]

View attachment 24617


There are already signs at the intersection where both routes begin outside of SJPP.

But, if I don't speak/read English, French, or Spanish, that sign is useless to me.

And if one is not walking down that specific street, they'll miss it. I'm simply suggesting signage that is on the road that can't be missed as one leaves SJPdP and starts up towards Orisson, and that does not depend on familiarity with a limited set of languages.

EDIT: I looked up the map, and that location is pretty much a choke-point along the route. There's no easy way to miss that intersection.

 

[Mark Lee]

That raises several interesting questions.

Did they actually break any laws?

If so, then 1) Are the laws consistent between Spain and France? 2) Is there an obligation on the part of the level of government passing the law to provide adequate notification in the form of language-independent signage?

Regardless of whether there is an actual law, I suggest that the various confraternities all contribute to supporting a set of signs that indicate whether the Route Napoleon is open or closed. When closed, these could redirect people towards the Valcarlos route. One set of signs would be on the road out of SJPdP, and another leading out of Orrison. If well designed, it would solve the problem of those who don't stop in the SJPdP pilgrim office, as well as those who have a language barrier (I recall a number of the 2013 rescues were South Korean and had a legitimate language barrier).

I for one would be willing to contribute to such a cause directly or through APOC.

It doesn't appear to me that the fees for reimbursement are a criminal penalty. A fine. More like a civil matter. I suppose if the fees weren't paid, the matter could become criminal (contempt of court, etc) same as here in the US.
In the US to disregard a warning or detour sign like that could indeed be a criminal offense. A low end misdemeanor. On the level of a traffic ticket, but a criminal offense nonetheless. You see it all the time in the US in events where there is major flooding, yet people still attempt to cross flooded roadways in their cars and get swept away. Often times those roadways have been closed already and signs and barricades put up, yet sometimes people disregard them, drive around them and get swept away or trapped and a rescue is initiated. The fine for disregarding the barricade would be around $500.00 US maximum, but the reimbursement for the helicopter that plucked them off the roof of the car could be several thousand dollars. Those babies don't fly cheap.
I experienced it as an LEO in the US. We had very bad flooding once, and three major highways had swift water running over them from the rivers and creeks. So many people were disregarding the signs and barricades that we had to set up personnel at those points 24/7 until the waters receded and the roadways could be reopened. Unfortunately that would be the best option in SJPdP on dangerous weather days in the nearby Pyrenees. You can only truly control the situation by posting someone to redirect at the crossroads of the Napoleon and ValCarlos from about 5:00 am to about 1:00 pm.
Language barriers, naivety and irresponsibility are always a factor when dealing with large numbers of people in that situation.

 

[jmcarp]

5,800 Euro fine for those caught in the storm last week on the Pyrenees but helicopter charges are still pending. Expensive lapse of judgement...

http://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/soc...factura-5800-euros-dos-peregrinos-su-rescate/

Here's the Bing translation of the referenced article. Granted, automatic translators like Bing and Google Translate are not perfect, but in this case it's good enough to get the message across that it's a reimbursement of costs. Of course, that's not to say that a fine could not be imposed in addition to these reimbursements if "forbidden in winter" means an actual law were broken.

******************
Inside an invoice more than 5,800 euros two pilgrims for their rescue

Two pilgrims, of Brazilian origin, has entered into a variant of the Camino de Santiago, which is forbidden in winter.

The Department of Interior has invoiced costs caused by their rescue operations to Brazilian pilgrims who were rescued last week, with an amount of €5.360 in the case of woman and 450 in the man.

As reported by the Government of Navarra, in the case of the female 5.360 euros are invoiced by the use of a rescue helicopter and 12hours of 11 people, and at the man of the 450 euros correspond to a three hour operation developed by four effective and a land vehicle.

These amounts do not include health services or the use of the helicopter medicalized, used on the two bailouts, that also will be billed them by the Department of health.

The pilgrims, who were rescued in the area of Ibañeta, had taken this variant entry in Navarre of the Camino de Santiago by Iparralde, between Donibane Garazi and Roncesvalles, the of the Hill of Lepoeder, despite being forbidden in winter time.

This decision was "clearly reckless and reckless", according to the Civil protection service.

 

[domigee]

But, if I don't speak/read English, French, or Spanish, that sign is useless to me.

A small pocket dictionary would have the translation for the word FERMÉ I believe....

 

[Toreld]

5,800 Euro fine for those caught in the storm last week on the Pyrenees but helicopter charges are still pending. Expensive lapse of judgement...

http://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/soc...factura-5800-euros-dos-peregrinos-su-rescate/

Hola,
In Norway we have something called the 10 mountain rules.
Every year from kindergarden to last class in school you have to repeat them untill you know them by hearth.
1. Listen to the weatherforcast,
2. Always tell were you are going
3. There is no shame in returning.
And so on. The numbers might be wrong, but you get the picture ?

 

[domigee]

It doesn't appear to me that the fees for reimbursement are a criminal penalty. A fine. More like a civil matter. I suppose if the fees weren't paid, the matter could become criminal (contempt of court, etc) same as here in the US.
In the US to disregard a warning or detour sign like that could indeed be a criminal offense. A low end misdemeanor. On the level of a traffic ticket, but a criminal offense nonetheless. You see it all the time in the US in events where there is major flooding, yet people still attempt to cross flooded roadways in their cars and get swept away. Often times those roadways have been closed already and signs and barricades put up, yet sometimes people disregard them, drive around them and get swept away or trapped and a rescue is initiated. The fine for disregarding the barricade would be around $500.00 US maximum, but the reimbursement for the helicopter that plucked them off the roof of the car could be several thousand dollars. Those babies don't fly cheap.
I experienced it as an LEO in the US. We had very bad flooding once, and three major highways had swift water running over them from the rivers and creeks. So many people were disregarding the signs and barricades that we had to set up personnel at those points 24/7 until the waters receded and the roadways could be reopened. Unfortunately that would be the best option in SJPdP on dangerous weather days in the nearby Pyrenees. You can only truly control the situation by posting someone to redirect at the crossroads of the Napoleon and ValCarlos from about 5:00 am to about 1:00 pm.
Language barriers, naivety and irresponsibility are always a factor when dealing with large numbers of people in that situation.

I am just concerned now that the locals will be sued one day when the path is actually opened but there is bad weather...
A pilgrim hasn't listened to the local advice before setting off, either because he can't be bothered or because he doesn't speak French/Spanish/English....
He dies....
The family sues and wants compensation 'There was NO sign" "he or she didn't understand the language".
What next? "I fell into a ravine because there was NO sign actually warning me there was a ravine?

Sorry for the rant but I believe it's Health and Safety gone mad. (iMO)

 

[Toreld]

I am just concerned now that the locals will be sued one day when the path is actually opened but there is bad weather...
A pilgrim hasn't listened to the local advice before setting off, either because he can't be bothered or because he doesn't speak French/Spanish/English....
He dies....
The family sues and wants compensation 'There was NO sign" "he or she didn't understand the language".
What next? "I fell into a ravine because there was NO sign actually warning me there was a ravine?

You cannot sue anyone for bad weather. ???? And privat bad advices.

 

[dougfitz]

It doesn't appear to me that the fees for reimbursement are a criminal penalty.

When I raised the matter of whether or not they had broken the law, I wasn't contemplating that failing to comply with the regulation closing the pass would necessarily be a criminal matter. Certainly here is Australia there are a range of offences against regulations, etc that are not crimes.

 

[SabsP]

I am just concerned now that the locals will be sued one day when the path is actually opened but there is bad weather...
A pilgrim hasn't listened to the local advice before setting off, either because he can't be bothered or because he doesn't speak French/Spanish/English....
He dies....
The family sues and wants compensation 'There was NO sign" "he or she didn't understand the language".
What next? "I fell into a ravine because there was NO sign actually warning me there was a ravine?

Sorry for the rant but I believe it's Health and Safety gone mad. (iMO)

Domigee, sometimes it seems that common sense is a alien concept to some!!!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I am just concerned now that the locals will be sued one day

It is not the United States. A lawsuit is quite unlikely; a successful lawsuit nearly impossible.

 

[amorfati1]

They did it "their" way and it cost them. [Please note lack of sarcasm]

i might add - it not only "costs" them - it places well being and life at risk of others ! it's not always just about the cash involved ... [end of my 30 seconds on the soapbox]

 

[zzotte]

There you go Maybe if they post a big sign at the bottom with different price points for rescue work and double for dumb asses it would stop some from pursuing it.

zzotte

 

[Albertagirl]

I have been considering these posts, as a person who has gone alone into wilderness areas of national parks for most of my life - about 45 years. I carry a SPOT emergency beacon and have never gone into an area which was closed. I would suggest that persons travelling in dangerous or possibly risky areas do the following: 1. Be sure that you are informed of all regulations and possible dangers. 2. Follow the regulations, but consider a detour if this is a matter of safety when the route which you took is impassible. 3. Accept that you are responsible for any consequences of your actions. 4. If you risk your life foolishly, try not to take anyone with you but yourself.
The winter is not yet over in western Canada and nine snowmobilers have already died in avalanches, as well as some skiers. It does not surprise me that people risk their live in areas which are closed or have warnings up, especially on the camino. Many camino walkers have no experience in long-distance walking or its dangers. Most, I believe, die crossing busy roads. I had one or two fairly close calls where the route went back and forth across a road and I got confused as to the routing. Many walkers walk several abreast unless a vehicle appears. Be courteous and stay safe friends. The life which you lose could be your own.

 

[Jennifer from Colorado]

or at least a nominee for a coveted Darwin Award!

Darwin Awards are awarded posthumously, so hopefully the evacuees learned something, but also hoped they survived....

 

[Kathar1na]

Did they actually break any laws?
If so, then 1) Are the laws consistent between Spain and France?

As you can see on the left side of this message, I'm European. Your question made me giggle.

More seriously: the short answer to the second question is "no".

There are no legal restrictions on the track in France. The legal restrictions start at this point: 43°3'2,02"N and 1°16'6,04"W and they are fixed under Spanish law. If you walk there as a pilgrim on the camino during November-March, you can even be fined, up to 12000 EUR (on the basis of articles 60 and 61 of Ley Foral 8/2005 of 1 July). That's in addition to the risk of being billed for the cost of a rescue operation. Oh, and it's infracciones leves which Google Translate renders as minor offenses.

The Regional Navarra Government informed the French pilgrims' association in St Jean Pied de Port about the new rules and the potential costs to be paid and the potential fines, by way of a communication in Spanish. The association in turn put the information on their website in French and on a Facebook page in Spanish. It will take time before it reaches potential pilgrims around the globe who don't read French or Spanish (or Basque).

 

[alexwalker]

Norw. outdoor rules:

1. Plan your trip and let others know where you are heading.
2. Adapt your trip to your abilities and the prevailing conditions.
3. Pay attention to weather and avalanche predictions.
4. Be prepared for bad weatrher and cold climate, even on short trips.
   
5. Bring with you sufficient equipment to help yourself and others.
6. Make safe way choices. Recoqnise avalanche slopes and other dangerous terrains.
7. Use navigational aids. Always know where you are.
8. Turn back in time. There is no shame in going back for safety.
9. Save on your strengths and seek shelter if necessary.

Most Norwegians know them. Of course, each paragraph has a set of sub-sections. Many pilgrims have never seen snow...

 

[domigee]

Very good!
Apart from the avalanche bit, in 6, very like the guidelines for sailing.

 

[alexwalker]

Very good!
Apart from the avalanche bit, in 6, very like the guidelines for sailing.

Avalanche precautions are for mountains.

As for sailing, my teacher at my skipper school had a very good rule:

"If you are in doubt, act as if there is no doubt." It has avoided many accidents. Also:

And

"You are never wrong in slowing down."

Major rules at sea:

Rule 1: The captain is always right.
Rule 2: I the captain isn't right after all, then rule 1 automatically applies immediately.

 

[domigee]

Excellent

 

[dougfitz]

There are no legal restrictions on the track in France. The legal restrictions start at this point: 43°3'2,02"N and 1°16'6,04"W and they are fixed under Spanish law. If you walk there as a pilgrim on the camino during November-March, you can even be fined, up to 12000 EUR (on the basis of articles 60 and 61 of Ley Foral 8/2005 of 1 July). That's in addition to the risk of being billed for the cost of a rescue operation. Oh, and it's infracciones leves which Google Translate renders as minor offenses.

Thank you for clarifying this.

 

[Tincatinker]

€12000 for a minor infraction. Lets hope I never get caught dropping litter....

I'm minded that I posted a year or so ago on the distinction between the unlucky and the lucky. The unlucky set out on an expedition into challenging environments with the benefit of experience, good equipment and the knowledge of how to use it. An accident, an un-planned event, occurs and in consequence they need the good services of the brave volunteers who make up the backbone of the adventurous life. The lucky are those **** who set out ill equipped and in smug ignorance who are lucky that some poor sod will leave warm hearth and home and risk their own comfort and even life just because they feel they should. I always plan to be unlucky and hope not to be.

 

[alexwalker]

Good decisions come from experience.
Experience comes from bad decisions.

 

[Kiwi-family]

Good decisions come from experience.
Experience comes from bad decisions.

Understanding that experience does not have to be our own in order to be didactic. We CAN learn from others' bad decisions!

 

[alexwalker]

Understanding that experience does not have to be our own in order to be didactic. We CAN learn from others' bad decisions!

Indeed. If we had to learn only from own experiences, we would move veery slowly onwards. The persons responsible for this thread had obviously learnt nothing from others..., it was an accident based on stupidity/lack of knowledge, of course.

Edit: They were from Brazil, and obviously weren't prepared for snow in the Pyrenees. Had probably never seen snow. So we should not come down hard on them as such. But of course, they were putting other people (rescuers) at risk, and in my opinion, they should pay.

But I may be harsh and judgemental due to my knowledge of winter and bad weather; knowledge which people from other parts of the world do not possess.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Unless it is made mandatory for albergue to brief pilgrims, or for the pilgrim office to relocate to the junction point, Darwin misses will go up the dangerous way. But really, do we need to send all these people, and choppers, out to save such poor gene producers?

 

[domigee]

Edit: They were from Brazil, and obviously weren't prepared for snow in the Pyrenees. Had probably never seen snow. So we should not come down hard on them as such. But of course, they were putting other people (rescuers) at risk, and in my opinion, they should pay.

But I may be harsh and judgemental due to my knowledge of winter and bad weather; knowledge which people from other parts of the world do not possess.

You are absolutely right of course and very kind in your judgement. Much kinder than me the minute I realised they went through the closed path. All I can think is that they were so close to death for NOTHING and put other people' s lives at risk.

Buen - safe- camino to all

 

[alexwalker]

In the army, I was skiing on border patrols against the borders of Finland and Soviet Union. Staying in small tents a week at a time up in the mountain peaks. -30 C. Tough conditions, but we survived, due to our winter skills. Extreme knowledge, I know, but I come from a different world, and others are not so fortunate: They have no clue, and they create big problems, as in this case. Too bad. My thoughts are with the rescuers, risking their lives in order to save ignorants...

 

[dougfitz]

But really, do we need to send all these people, and choppers, out to save such poor gene producers?

Yes! It is something about our humanity, our generosity of spirit, and even perhaps our own sense of survival that we do these things, and even put ourselves at risk in the process. As for your assessment of their productive capacity, I am appalled you and others seem to have made such a damning assessment based on one incident. Many years ago, my nation spent perhaps millions of dollars finding and rescuing Tony Bullimore and Thierry Dubois from the Southern Ocean, two solo round the world sailors, putting at risk the many airmen and sailors involved in that operation. If you and others don't think that a single human life is worth saving, I cannot feel anything but that you have all lost some perspective on this matter.

 

[domigee]

Wonderful words, thank you for reminding us. (me)

 

[VNwalking]

Yes! It is something about our humanity, our generosity of spirit, and even perhaps our own sense of survival that we do these things, and even put ourselves at risk in the process. As for your assessment of their productive capacity, I am appalled you and others seem to have made such a damning assessment based on one incident. Many years ago, my nation spent perhaps millions of dollars finding and rescuing Tony Bullimore and Thierry Dubois from the Southern Ocean, two solo round the world sailors, putting at risk the many airmen and sailors involved in that operation. If you and others don't think that a single human life is worth saving, I cannot feel anything but that you have all lost some perspective on this matter.

Very well said, Doug, thank you.
If any of us have never made a stupid or selfish mistake then maybe we can criticize. Yes, it's irresponsible to do what those who know better say not to do. But there but for the grace of God go I.

 

[Jo Ann Rademacher]

But, if I don't speak/read English, French, or Spanish, that sign is useless to me.

And if one is not walking down that specific street, they'll miss it. I'm simply suggesting signage that is on the road that can't be missed as one leaves SJPdP and starts up towards Orisson, and that does not depend on familiarity with a limited set of languages.

EDIT: I looked up the map, and that location is pretty much a choke-point along the route. There's no easy way to miss that intersection.

Right under the word. "fermé" it says "closed"

 

[Urban Trekker]

Good decisions come from experience.
Experience comes from bad decisions.

I think the 7 Ps would apply

Proper prior planning prevents piss poor preformance

 

[Urban Trekker]

It is not the United States. A lawsuit is quite unlikely; a successful lawsuit nearly impossible.

Today if you ignore the rules or signs and have to be rescued, you will get a bill for your rescue and now days may face legal action by the authorities. Good luck with a law suit.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Avalanche precautions are for mountains.

As for sailing, my teacher at my skipper school had a very good rule:

"If you are in doubt, act as if there is no doubt." It has avoided many accidents. Also:

And

"You are never wrong in slowing down."

Major rules at sea:

Rule 1: The captain is always right.
Rule 2: I the captain isn't right after all, then rule 1 automatically applies immediately.

In the Navy you substituted The Chief for captain

 

[Mark Lee]

Unless it is made mandatory for albergue to breif pilgrims, or for the pilgrim office to relocate to the junccion point, Darwin misses will go up the dangerous way. But really, do we need to send all these people, and choppers, out to save such poor gene producers?

As a former public servant all I can say is that you just go out and do it. You don't think about why the person did what they did. The only thing you think about is the task at hand. Sure, the people are in that situation many times due to just plain stupidity, but that's not a factor in aiding them.

 

[Mark Lee]

In the Navy you substituted The Chief for captain

and add in coffee cup and cigarette....

 

[koilife]

I think a language-independent (translation: graphical/symbolic) sign is valuable. In 2013, one day after I went over, it snowed heavily and a number of Korean's ended up needing rescue. From what I understand, none of them spoke a language other than Korean. And trying to dig out a dictionary to decipher every sign along the way is a lot harder than following the yellow arrows. And, I'll bet many or most had never seen snow before.

There are some who clearly do not exercise common sense. There are others who genuinely start with a deficit of experience and communication. It is to these later that I suggest a different approach to signage would be of aid.

 

[Deleted member 43985]

Precisely the point of why I think a language-independent (translation: graphical/symbolic) sign is valuable. In 2013, one day after I went over, it snowed heavily and a number of Korean's ended up needing rescue. From what I understand, none of them spoke a language other than Korean. And trying to dig out a dictionary to decipher every sign along the way is a lot harder than following the yellow arrows. And, I'll bet many or most had never seen snow before.

There are some who clearly do not exercise common sense. There are others who genuinely start with a deficit of experience and communication. It is to these later that I suggest a different approach to signage would be of aid.

I understand your point @koilife but with some 6500 languages in the world, where and how can this be done? Do we analyse the demographics of who received a Compostella? What nationalities fly in and out of Spain? How could this really work? I agree with many of the posters here that these people likely just did not have the life experience to be out in the snow but shouldn't it still be the responsibility of a visitor to adequately prepare themselves? When I travel I do a lot of research about what the local conditions are, what vaccinations I may need, medicines, local customs, foreign language phrases travelers should know, etc. Brazilians may not have ever seen snow but surely the most basic search of walking the CF in March on the internet will find heaps of information about the danger of walking over the Napoleon route. I've lived too often in the glass house myself to throw stones but I feel more and more signs is a crutch that will get out of control.

 

[koilife]

Perhaps you'll disagree, but with simple symbols, almost all women find their way into women's restrooms and men into men's restrooms, and we don't need 6,500 words on each door.

With signage that doesn't require familiarity with the language or language dictionaries, even a very modest reduction of 10% in the number of rescues seems worth it, since the cost of the signage is almost certainly less than the cost of even one average rescue. I highly doubt the rescue teams are looking at rescues as a profit-driven business, which means the reduction would probably be very welcome, not to mention that it reduces the chance for serious injury or even death for them.

For the record, I'm not defending the Brazilians at the start of this thread, nor are they the ones that I am thinking of when I posted my suggestion about the signs. To go as a diabetic without sufficient nourishment, in my mind, speaks volumes about the carelessness of what they did. Moreover, they should have been able to read the signage that was up.

That being said, I think that it is a relatively simple thing to increase the effectiveness of the signage for those that would benefit from it. That was the point of my post; whether or not people agree with it is another matter. On the other hand, it would be easier and cheaper to simply nominate the lot for a Darwin Award and let God sort them out.

 

[Urban Trekker]

and add in coffee cup and cigarette....

New Navy. No smoking on ships anymore. Can't cuss or drink either.

 

[Deleted member 43985]

Perhaps you'll disagree, but with simple symbols, almost all women find their way into women's restrooms and men into men's restrooms, and we don't need 6,500 words on each door.

With signage that doesn't require familiarity with the language or language dictionaries, even a very modest reduction of 10% in the number of rescues seems worth it, since the cost of the signage is almost certainly less than the cost of even one average rescue. I highly doubt the rescue teams are looking at rescues as a profit-driven business, which means the reduction would probably be very welcome, not to mention that it reduces the chance for serious injury or even death for them.

For the record, I'm not defending the Brazilians at the start of this thread, nor are they the ones that I am thinking of when I posted my suggestion about the signs. To go as a diabetic without sufficient nourishment, in my mind, speaks volumes about the carelessness of what they did. Moreover, they should have been able to read the signage that was up.

That being said, I think that it is a relatively simple thing to increase the effectiveness of the signage for those that would benefit from it. That was the point of my post; whether or not people agree with it is another matter. On the other hand, it would be easier and cheaper to simply nominate the lot for a Darwin Award and let God sort them out.

I don't disagree at all with the idea or principle. In the right place for the right purpose, symbols are very effective for many purposes. In this scenario though, I'm struggling to think of a universal symbol that conveys so many ideas: closed from Oct-Apr, please check-in with the Pilgrim office if you are unfamiliar with the Camino and it's dangers, proceeding may put your life in unnecessary dangers as well as the lives of the brave people who will try their utmost to save you, deep snow ahead, etc. Please understand, I'm not trying to be flip in this subject at all, it's just that I don't see a simple sign or symbol that will stop the inevitable few that every year find themselves in this position.

As for the Darwin comment, I have removed it. I made an offhand comment in ignorance (I didn't realize one needed to die to win this 'award', I thought it was for the special individuals who did stupid things. Lesson learned as I know qualify by my previous understanding.) but that isn't an excuse so my apologies if you took offense and to anyone else who may have also been offended. It wasn't nor ever will be my intention.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Right under the word. "fermé" it says "closed"

If these people are able to find there way to the little village of SJPP, surely they are savvy enough, if not to know what this sign says, at least to wonder what it says and go "uhhmmm...". Or do we have to start seeing signs or the highway in 280 languages and dialects? I don't see that on immigration forms, airports, etc.

Plus, in this particular case, the woman is married to a Belgian and/or lives in Belgium, according to one of the articles. Now, let's not get into jokes about the Belgians, but when I lived there it was the center of the world, or just about, and 4 languages, and the one in large print being one of the 2 official languages of the country you live in, surely it can clue you in.

Again, they were able to find their way to SJPP...

 

[Kanga]

Any warning sign needs to be very clear. Looking at the photographs of the warning sign, I can imagine people noting the red sign on the top, with the arrow pointing towards the Refuge Auberge Orisson, and going that way.

I would favour a simple pictogram. Wrong way, go back. It would need to be in a frame or something similar, so it could be changed with the route is open and clear.

 

[Tia Valeria]

Last year the shell sign on the Camino had a large black cross through it in some places with the correct direction then signed. Obvious and easy to do and to remove/cover when the way is open if used for the route from SJPP, with an a 'danger' symbol alongside. Also it would help to cover over the signs to Orisson. Seems fairly simple to do all that without needing words.

 

[VNwalking]

(Or whatever...but a simple pictogram, perhaps with dates)

 

[mspath]

Since many pilgrims arrive in SJPdP by train from Bayonne multilingual closure notices/signs should be prominantly displayed in the Bayonne and SJPdP rr stations. Furthermore such signs should be at the camino gates, ie the Port St. Jacques and the Port d'Espagne.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

my teacher at my skipper school had a very good rule:

In aviation: there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

View attachment 24624

(Or whatever...but a simple pictogram, perhaps with dates)

Dates?! Another can of worms: what is 01/11/2016 to you? November first or the 11th of January?

 

[Sue Blue Mountains]

Very pleased to see that the user pays system is alive and well in Spain. We could do with a bit more of it here in Australia. The Search & Rescue teams are always out rescuing fools who should not be out there. They put too many other lives at risk.

As one of those involved in rescues in the Blue Mountains - agreed!

 

[Sue Blue Mountains]

Since many pilgrims arrive in SJPdP by train from Bayonne multilingual closure notices/signs should be prominantly displayed in the Bayonne and SJPdP rr stations. Furthermore such signs should be at the camino gates, ie the Port St. Jacques and the Port d'Espagne.

You'd think if anyone did an iota of research and stumbled upon this site they would have seen all the info about the closed route Napolean. But, you never know I guess. I'll be in SJPDP in a week and look forward to checking out any such signs.

 

[mspath]

You'd think if anyone did an iota of research and stumbled upon this site they would have seen all the info about the closed route Napolean. But, you never know I guess. I'll be in SJPDP in a week and look forward to checking out any such signs.

When I used the word should in the post above I meant ought to in the future, not that I knew such signs to be in place this winter. However I am curious as to what was in place and where at the time of the acident.

 

[amorfati1]

Dates?! Another can of worms: what is 01/11/2016 to you? November first or the 11th of January?

no can of worms: in europe and almost all other countries on this planet:
Day first , Month , Year

"While this European date format is unusual for visitors, it is actually the US date format which is different with the majority of the countries in the world using European date format over the American counterpart. The only countries that do not share the European date format in fact are the US, Philippines, Palau, the Federated States of Micronesia, Canada and Belize."

 

[jpflavin1]

Google translate is a free app you can download on your phone. Thirty years ago not understanding a sign might be excusable but not with today's cellphones and their capabilities. If I were traveling to a country to do a Winter hike, I would surely have this app or at least learn a few basic warning words. Also, please and thank you, where is the bathroom and how to order my favorite alcoholic beverage ;-).

Joe

 

[domigee]

I agree with the above, sorry Viranani, I walked through Hungary, Serbia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Cyprus, Israel....I struggled but spent many nights trying to understand/speak/read a few words....if only to decipher the signs only written in cyrillic once in Bulgaria. How else do you find your way?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

no can of worms: in europe and almost all other countries on this planet:
Day first , Month , Year

"While this European date format is unusual for visitors, it is actually the US date format which is different with the majority of the countries in the world using European date format over the American counterpart. The only countries that do not share the European date format in fact are the US, Philippines, Palau, the Federated States of Micronesia, Canada and Belize."

Well, as someone who lives in Montreal, a Canadian city where people,switch back and forth between English amd French, I can tell you from experience that writing dates like that does create a lot of confusion.

Edited by Moderator

 

[VNwalking]

I agree with the above, sorry Viranani

No apology necessary, domigee. Well, me too--in terms of travel I totally agree with you and Joe about sensible ways to prepare for travel to a place where language is a challenge. And...sometimes signage needs to cater to the 'lowest common denominator'

It's not that confusing. Just knowing that it's different (and one finds out pretty quickly) is all it takes...

 

[dougfitz]

I don't think it is unusual to expect the visitors to adapt to the conventions of the country they are in when it comes to linguistic and other conventions such as the presentation of dates and numbers. If that is a problem, then travel with a local guide who can assist decode these things, or don't travel. How sad would that be!

 

[Kanga]

A slanging match seems to have developed. Can I remind members that we are all members of a community and it is pure prejudice to denigrate a particular nationality. I've deleted and edited some posts and closed the thread, which seems to have run its course in any event.