Action required to sexual harassment/ rape attempt on the Camino.

[camino4me]

Dear Ivar and the members of Camino de Santiago forum,
First of all I would like to thank Ivar for setting up this forum for all of us, the Camino lovers, to ask questions, exchange knowledge, share the support as well as the magic experience of the Camino.
Thank you for all the members of this forum to take the time and share their thoughts and advises to each other.
I'm a Canadian Vietnamese, living in Vancouver, BC. I love long walks and hiking and I am passionate about walking on the Camino. I walked 4 short routes of the Camino, and half of the French Camino on my own, mostly alone and I came out of it safe and sound. Regardless that I began my walk with the naivety that this road is a pilgrimage road and according to most comments I found on the internet and this forum that it is perfectly safe for a woman to walk alone. Moreover, I found peace, strength, kindness and camaraderie on this spiritual path and I long to come back to it.
In light of the recent missing of Denise Thiem and the increased reports of sexual harassment in the form of exhibitionists, sexual assaults and attempt rapes on the camino, I feel that all the advises and comments here in the forum are diverse and based on personal opinions. In some threads, I notice an air of ridicule , smirks and critics of spreading fears, which I am not agreed with. Sexual crimes are serious regardless where it happens. We should not take it lightly, especially on the Camino where the women walkers are double vulnerable because they are in a foreign country, lack of language and support. In fact, I read a few comments from the victims who said they didn't report the sexual crime happened to them, either to the police (due to the language barrier and their distrust to the authority in Spain) or to this forum(to avoid being ridicule because of spreading fear). Instead of just passively throw our opinions around here, I would like to see some meaningful actions. What can we do as a community to prevent and counteract with the sexual predators that attack woman on the camino?
I have the following questions/ suggestions:
1. Can we contact the pilgrim office in Santiago and all the associations of pilgrims associated with the Camino to request a communication to the local authorities along the Camino about the sexual harassment to have a formal acknowledgement of the police about this crime?
2. Can the pilgrim office request a clear guide from the Spanish police department of what to do, what number to call, where to report and what the procedure is. Is there a distress/ emergency line in English. Or what is the solution for non Spanish speakers. These informations are essential and accessible for pilgrims and posted clearly at all albergues.
3. On this forum, we need to have a thread for people who had been victims of sexual crimes to report/ alarm of their experience with full respect and support. We should encourage and show appreciation to the women who have the courage to report their frightening experience to alarm and to protect other women as well as all pilgrims who alert us about crimes happening on the camino. Safety and saving life is the utmost importance.
Supposedly, there is fear and if fear saves women's lives, or save them from the sexual violation, why not? Fear itself is not a negative thing, what one choose to do about it is where it shows positivity or negativity, and that remains a personal choice. I quoted it before and I repeat it here again, according to Gavin de Becker, fear is actually a gift that can save one's life! His book" The Gift of Fear", is widely known. Truly and importantly, raising the awareness is not spreading fear.
4. How can we raise this concern effectively to the pilgrim office, to the police?
5. How can we inform other pilgrims who are not on this forum? Non- English speaking pilgrim?
6. The Communication and guideline regarding this matter should be post at all albergues from starting points and along the way. Besides Spanish it should be translated a different languages including, English, French, German, Korean, Chinese and Japanese.
I don't know what can be done? What can I do? What can you do?
Please let me know.
Best,
Helen

 

[Anniesantiago]

Helen, if this is a project you'd like to spearhead, I'd say go for it.
However, I still believe when taken in perspective, the Camino is one of the safest places in the world for women to walk alone.

 

[camino4me]

Thank you Anniesantiago for your reply.

But I think you missed my point here.
I agree with you that crime happens everywhere, sexual crime included.
However your statistics of the reported sexual harassment on the camino is kinda subjective and might not be accurate as who knows how many cases went un- reported? You stated that you, yourself was a victim? did you report it?

Your statistic was based on Oregon, a city of 3.9 million, the percentage is quite small I think. Plus, sexual crimes are not taken lightly in United States or Canada. It should not be taken lightly in Spain either, regardless of the number.

Language barrier and lack of support prevent people to report of their crime and silencing it is a way of encourage this kind of crimes flourishing on our beloved Camino path. As a veteran walker, you know that there are many stretches of the Camino that are wooded, secluded areas where one can become vulnerable. As an experience traveler and walker, you may be knowledgeable, prepared and capable of defend yourself, others might not, especially unsuspected and inexperienced travellers . Women walking alone need to be inform of the risk even if it is 1% chance, and should not be lead to think it is completely safe to walk alone. That was what I was lead to think when I began to walk the Camino. They have the right to walk the camino being informed and the right to choose how they proceed.

Nevertheless, my questions are firstly, how to inform lone female pilgrim so they are aware of the risk and come prepared; secondly, the possibility of cooperation between Spanish authority and the pilgrim associations to provide clear guidance in reporting crime and lastly, language barrier should not be the obstruction to information for non spanish and non English speakers on the Camino.

This is not a task could be spear headed personally, I can not do it alone, it requires a unified voice and the concerns should be raised to the representative of pilgrims through Associations and the local authority. I agree that it is impossible for the police to patrol the whole camino but the police as well as the victim should have strategies on how to deal with the problem, should one arises.

I'm personally offended by your comment of "IF YOU ARE TOO AFRAID OF WALKING THE CAMINO ALONE THEN STAY HOME." I had walked my caminos alone but everyone has the right to walk the camino how they feel comfortable with.The Camino is not only for the tough and macho ones, Anniesantiago.

I didn't say I can or will do something. I just want to listen to others' voices on what we can do as a community to this problem. Everyone is entitled to one's own opinion. You can focus on peace, but others have the right to raise their concern on safety issue as well. Unless you want all safety concern thread to be deleted on this forum?!

Best,

 

[Gailsie]

Anniesantiago says IF YOU ARE AFRAID TO WALK THE CAMINO ALONE THEN STAY HOME.
What a lovely sentiment from a camino veteran for those of us who have realistic concerns. I have been following and am amazed by those who say just don't be afraid - sorry but it does not work that way in real life.

 

[Lise T]

Thank you Camino4me for posting this.

I am someone who felt uncomfortable posting what happened to me in 2013. So I requested that my recent thread be deleted.

I dont think people realize how hard it is to share what happened and how absolutely confused, shocked, and humiliated you feel at the time.....and after. I feel bad that I didn't report it my incident.

I haven't thought people sharing their experiences or concerns as negative at all. Or "campaigning for fear". I have seen it as empowerment or raising awareness.

The Camino is a safe place. But just like those people who think it will be all sunshine, friends and wine...like in the movie "The Way". The reality when you walk it ...is completely different.

It is pain, tummy bugs, sun burn, too cold, too wet, too slippery, to noisey, too crowded, broken bones, broken spirit, new relationships, ending relationships, shoes to big, shoes to small and blisters.

Its filled with moments of "this is the greatest thing I have ever done" followed by "what the hell was I thinking".

All of these points have been raised on this forum as discussion topics. I dont see that speaking about and raising awareness about sexual harassment on the Camino should be any different. It may make some feel uncomfortable but it shouldn't stop people from speaking up.

I think rather than adopt an approach of "IF YOU ARE TOO AFAID TO WALK THE CAMINO, STAY AT HOME."
I would say that its better to empower newbies by suggesting....

If you are concerned....then this forum is where you can talk about your concerns and we can offer suggestions to try and mitigate any concerns you may have....just like we do about shoes and water bottles and socks and accomodation.

Finally....thank you to those women who have been brave to share there stories.

 

[camino4me]

Thank you Camino4me for posting this.

I am someone who felt uncomfortable posting what happened to me in 2013. So I requested that my recent thread be deleted.

I dont think people realize how hard it is to share what happened and how absolutely confused, shocked, and humiliated you feel at the time.....and after. I feel bad that I didn't report it my incident.

I haven't thought people sharing their experiences or concerns as negative at all. Or "campaigning for fear". I have seen it as empowerment or raising awareness.

The Camino is a safe place. But just like those people who think it will be all sunshine, friends and wine...like in the movie "The Way". The reality when you walk it ...is completely different.

It is pain, tummy bugs, sun burn, too cold, too wet, too slippery, to noisey, too crowded, broken bones, broken spirit, new relationships, ending relationships, shoes to big, shoes to small and blisters.

Its filled with moments of "this is the greatest thing I have ever done" followed by "what the hell was I thinking".

All of these points have been raised on this forum as discussion topics. I dont see that speaking about and raising awareness about sexual harassment on the Camino should be any different. It may make some feel uncomfortable but it shouldn't stop people from speaking up.

I think rather than adopt an approach of "IF YOU ARE TOO AFAID TO WALK THE CAMINO, STAY AT HOME."
I would say that its better to empower newbies by suggesting....

If you are concerned....then this forum is where you can talk about your concerns and we can offer suggestions to try and mitigate any concerns you may have....just like we do about shoes and water bottles and socks and accomodation.

Finally....thank you to those women who have been brave to share there stories.

Thanks, Lise T. Well said.
I'm sorry for the bad experience you endured, I guess that after what happened you are still belonged to this forum meant that the Camino is somewhat meaningful to you. I wish more victims would fight back to this crime by speaking up about it. I am so disturbed by the victimisation of women in sexual crime. Women are not asked to be followed, to be harassed, to be groped and to be raped regardless where she is, what she wears; be with or without companion(s). There is no shame and humiliation about it. It is not your fault or your responsibility for others' violent behaviour.
Warmest regards,
Best.
Helen.

 

[Kathar1na]

So having said all that, asking the authorities in Spain to patrol the Camino would be like asking the authorities in the USA to patrol the Appalachian Trail. [...] Make yourself as inconspicuous as possible.

I am telling myself that I don't really want to get involved in another of these discussions but I am not quite there yet. I myself am actually not interested in any home made statistics or shaky probability statements or in the situation on the Appalachian Trail or in (insert any US city). That's not why I joined this forum. Some general advice can, of course, be universal. Making yourself inconspicuous on the Camino Francés ... now that is a novel idea. I remarked to my friends recently that local people only had to take a quick look at us, with our backpacks, hi-tech outdoor garments, and walking poles to know where we were going - it was written all over us.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Ok. I'm removing my posts and I will do my best to stay out of these discussions.
If anyone wants to know how to stay safe on the Camino, there are some good common sense rules given by the Forestry Service in regards to walking the Appalachian Trail. As I said, most of them apply to the Camino or any long-distance trail.

Those of you who want to be afraid, nothing anyone says will change that.

 

[Kathar1na]

Perhaps a word of explanation: It seems to me that part of the problem of "harassment" (for lack of a better word) is not that the paths are in very remote areas or go through urban megacities but rather that they are never far from populated areas and easily accessible by car. That's why I find some of the comparisons not really meaningful.

 

[Kathar1na]

Ok. I'm removing my posts and I will do my best to stay out of these discussions.

Annie, I apologise if you took offense at my contribution. As I said, we are so obviously recognisable and omnipresent, certainly on the Camino Francés, and it is widely known that we walk there in great numbers every day, so I just could not refrain myself from reacting.

But now back to the topic of this thread: a proposal for action and not a request for advice to walkers.

 

[Icacos]

@Anniesantiago, in one of your posts (now deleted) you made the suggestion to 'stay away from parked cars.' I was so glad to see that. When my companion and I walked the Francés we instinctively gave a wide berth to all parked cars / vans, even those offering food and drinks. It was only after I returned home that I read on this Forum about the 'Camino Angels' who offer sustenance to pilgrims along the way, and I felt bad about having treated these vehicles and their occupants with such scepticism. It probably sounds awful but, were I to walk the Camino again, I think I would still steer clear of these parked vehicles. It's just a habit of mine .... sort of like not stopping the car on a railway track.

 

[RobertS26]

Helen, if this is a project you'd like to spearhead, I'd say go for it.
However, I still believe when taken in perspective, the Camino is one of the safest places in the world for women to walk alone.

Based upon statistics you are absolutely right. The crime reported on the Camino happens all over the world--at significantly higher rates. For example, a woman in the Unites States is 2000 times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime at home versus the Camino.

 

[Sheesh]

[QUOTE, Anniesantiago wrote "Ok. I'm removing my posts and I will do my best to stay out of these discussions....Those of you who want to be afraid, nothing anyone says will change that.[/QUOTE]



I doubt anyone "wants" to be afraid. But fear is not as easily retractable as posts to the forum are.

 

[cherrys]

I walked maybe 70% of the camino alone, not something I had planned on, but I found I really enjoyed it. I felt a bit apprehensive at times, but having consistantly read how it's safer than most places in the world, I basically didn't worry. In light of what has been posted recently, if I were going tomorrow (and how I very much wish I was), I would be somewhat more apprehensive in certain areas, and probably walk in somewhat close proximity to some other people, with them knowing I was tagging along behind. This does not mean I would be afraid, merely being a little more cautious than I was two years ago. Given the number of people who walk it, it is obviously very safe, but.....occasionally things do happen. I think the idea of the albergues posting a notice telling pilgrims how to get in touch with local authorities/police, or this info being handed out either at St. Jean or at any of the other major starting points could be potentially very useful. I carried my iphone with me, cellular data turned off usually, but if I had needed to get help in a bad situation, it's occurred to me now I would have had no idea how to proceed. I am not an advocate of the "oh this has gone wrong, I need to be rescued" school (too many years of mountaineering under my belt), but in an all out emergency perhaps it would be nice to know where to turn or who to call. Perhaps some pertinent info could be added at the bottom of the list of albergues or the mileage/elevation sheet we were given. Both of those sheets I used a lot and kept with me almost the entire journey. Or much as I'm not sure I would want to see it there, but in small print somewhere on one's credential? We always have that with us.

 

[mspath]

To report any emergency throughout europe call 112. The switchboard operators speak many languages and will connect you with the nearest local police/rescue authorities. Your call can be made from most portable phones even when not connected to an active service provider.

 

[Stephen Nicholls]

Hey! Camino4me! Don't get stressed - I for one am 100% with you, and so are many others.
If I were with you now, I'd treat you to a coffee and a cream cake .

 

[camino4me]

Hey! Camino4me! Don't get stressed - I for one am 100% with you, and so are many others.
If I were with you now, I'd treat you to a coffee and a cream cake .

Stephen, thank you for your kindness, sir!

 

[ivar]

Dear all,

As a general rule, personal conversations should stay personal. If you feel you have been treated badly in a PM, please let me know and I will deal with it (in PMs).

This topic is important to bring up, but please let's not get personal. See our forum rules:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/forum-rules.20973/

Buen Camino!
Ivar

 

[dougfitz]

@camino4me, you ask some insightful questions, but they make me wonder what basic preparations you think need to be done before travelling abroad. It strikes me as naive to be travelling in a foreign country without a basic understanding of how to arrange emergency assistance (police, ambulance, etc) and just as importantly, how to contact your nation's embassy or consulates.

I know that the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs puts a lot of effort into ensuring that Australians travelling overseas have good information on a broad range of subjects including general advice to all travellers, specific country advice, and advice on specific issues, including sexual assault and for women travellers. It would surprize me if your own national government wasn't making similar information available. Making this information available doesn't mean that everyone reads it. I acknowledge that too.

Reinforcing these messages in albergues is clearly a decision that the individual managers or management committees need to be involved in. Really that is up to them. As for this forum, I am not against having the matters raised, but I wonder if this is really the best way for someone who has suffered a sexual assault to be supported. We are at best a range of amateurs, and not many of us would have the specialist professional skills needed. As I understand the Australian government's approach, consular staff and the other hot-line services will help sexual assault victims get in touch with specialist Australian based support organisations to help them deal with the trauma involved.

You ask what people can do. I think there are several things, starting with being prepared before you leave home. Know the basics, including how to contact emergency services, your embassy/consulates, and your travel insurance provider. Next, be aware of the risks, what to avoid, and what to do about them. A finally, whenever there is an incident such as theft, assault or sexual assault, whatever the nature of an incident, report it to the police. It is a cruel hard fact that the behaviour you don't object to is the behaviour that will persist.

 

[camino4me]

@camino4me, you ask some insightful questions, but they make me wonder what basic preparations you think need to be done before travelling abroad. It strikes me as naive to be travelling in a foreign country without a basic understanding of how to arrange emergency assistance (police, ambulance, etc) and just as importantly, how to contact your nation's embassy or consulates.

I know that the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs puts a lot of effort into ensuring that Australians travelling overseas have good information on a broad range of subjects including general advice to all travellers, specific country advice, and advice on specific issues, including sexual assault and for women travellers. It would surprize me if your own national government wasn't making similar information available. Making this information available doesn't mean that everyone reads it. I acknowledge that too.

Reinforcing these messages in albergues is clearly a decision that the individual managers or management committees need to be involved in. Really that is up to them. As for this forum, I am not against having the matters raised, but I wonder if this is really the best way for someone who has suffered a sexual assault to be supported. We are at best a range of amateurs, and not many of us would have the specialist professional skills needed. As I understand the Australian government's approach, consular staff and the other hot-line services will help sexual assault victims get in touch with specialist Australian based support organisations to help them deal with the trauma involved.

You ask what people can do. I think there are several things, starting with being prepared before you leave home. Know the basics, including how to contact emergency services, your embassy/consulates, and your travel insurance provider. Next, be aware of the risks, what to avoid, and what to do about them. A finally, whenever there is an incident such as theft, assault or sexual assault, whatever the nature of an incident, report it to the police. It is a cruel hard fact that the behaviour you don't object to is the behaviour that will persist.

Thank you sir for your kind reply and useful informations.
I would like to clarify though this thread is not about me not having enough information and preparation for traveling. Personally, I had the privilege to walk the camino on different routes and was lucky to go through it safely. I also backpacked across Europe for 18 months as a solo traveller, and learned most of my survival skills there. My concern is what we can do to inform others who probably don't know, sir! Not to mention the pilgrims who don't speak either English or Spanish, will they be properly informed?
I agree with you that as travellers we need to gather infos and prepare thoroughly for our trip abroad. I can attest that similarly Canadian government passport and immigration office offers a wealth of info and travel advisory to its citizens. The matter is how many people take the time to read it? In time of crisis how many people would remember the emergency number in Spain is 112?
I completely agree with you regarding the professionalism of this community in term of providing professional support to victims of sexual harassment. As far as I know, no victim approached this forum for professional support but some of them shared the experience as alert to other women. I feel that the least we can do as a community of fellowship is to respect and support the one who decided to share their bad experience and refrain from comments that further victimize them. That is my proposal and my hope!
It is also my hope that if there were enough people voicing concern on this problem then maybe the authority in Spain, the authority of the pilgrim body would do something to inform and ensure the safety of women on the camino to certain extent
Best regards,

 

[Me Fein]

To report any emergency throughout europe call 112. The switchboard operators speak many languages and will connect you with the nearest local police/rescue authorities. Your call can be made from most portable phones even when not connected to an active service provider.

In Portugal as well as the emergency no 112 ,Via Lusitania has an emergency Ph No (+352) 915 595 213 for people walking the Caminho Portuguese

 

[Deleted member 3000]

In light of what has been posted recently, if I were going tomorrow (and how I very much wish I was), I would be somewhat more apprehensive in certain areas, and probably walk in somewhat close proximity to some other people, with them knowing I was tagging along behind. This does not mean I would be afraid, merely being a little more cautious than I was two years ago. Given the number of people who walk it, it is obviously very safe

To me, that is the key current issue. An extraordinary event may have occurred, and no culprit has been found.

There is the garden variety harassment that women are familiar with. It does not make the Camino unsafe, and it will continue as long as some men are around! There is actual assault, and the authorities seem to react professionally to it. Knowing the emergency number, 112, will deal with it if you have a cell phone. If a killer is stalking the route, it does no good to quote statistics on road or aviation safety. There is a dangerous predator afoot. Sticking with a group probably reduces the danger to nearly zero, so a very minor adjustment, as you suggest, is all that is necessary. Not fear. Not panic. Not weapons.

Buen camino to all (though none of this is a problem that men have to deal with)!!

 

[rometimed]

Sorry where/what is the specific action?

I am on the Camino right now and people are aware of the American woman who dissapeared near Astorga... American women (in particular) have requested to stay by others just after Astorga (but really that is quite easy to do).

I haven't heard of anyone being aassaulted in the last couple of weeks in the days around me. A guy died of a heart attack, a girl got hypothermia in the pyrannes, a young Norwegian girl got very drunk one night and had to get her stomach pumped, someone we were with stabbed herself in the eye while taking a pee in a bush and had to go to hospital, multiple people cut open fingers and hands on pocket knives, I had a sliver of wood off a door frame go through my finger I had to pull out. I am not female but I would be far far far more concerned about getting hit by a car out here than being assaulted.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I would be far far far more concerned about getting hit by a car out here than being assaulted.

That is just so true for us men! I walk fearlessly watching for that next abrupt car maneuver completely confident that it is just another Spanish driver and not the start of a kidnap attempt.

 

[rometimed]

[QUOTwhat'slcon269, post: 311998, member: 3000"]That is just so true for us men! I walk fearlessly watching for that next abrupt car maneuver completely confident that it is just another Spanish driver and not the start of a kidnap attempt.[/QUOTE]

Is it that bad? I've heard lots complaining of almost getting smacked by cars... no one mentioning assaults. Only 3 women have mentioned any real fear of being assaulted and they are now in groups of 6-8 people at almost all times.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Is it that bad?

Not for me. With thirteen compostelas and five caminos in France, I have never been afraid of assault. I look at the data and my personal experience, and walk fearlessly. I think everyone should be able to look at honest data and make their own decision, just as I have. I don't take advice from anyone who has not walked a mile in my boots, though.

 

[MichaelB10398]

For those who are interested in this topic I would encourage you to create a summary of things that can be done in the case of emergency. Many of us walk the Camino as pilgrims without ever thinking or preparing for these type of events...and we don't prepare for them. It is not living in fear to be prepared; it is knowing who to call and what to do.

The Camino is a pilgrimage for many, but it is a path of humanity. Bad things will happen and will occur.

Almost all bad situations and events can be avoided by being aware of what is going on around you.

The challenge for Camino4me and others who are inclined is to cooperate together and produce a summary of things individuals should know to be prepared.

 

[rometimed]

For those who are interested in this topic I would encourage you to create a summary of things that can be done in the case of emergency. Many of us walk the Camino as pilgrims without ever thinking or preparing for these type of events...and we don't prepare for them. It is not living in fear to be prepared; it is knowing who to call and what to do.

The Camino is a pilgrimage for many, but it is a path of humanity. Bad things will happen and will occur.

Almost all bad situations and events can be avoided by being aware of what is going on around you.

The challenge for Camino4me and others who are inclined is to cooperate together and produce a summary of things individuals should know to be prepared.

Well I can say on the Camino some women are trying to stay with others for the part after Astorga, but again this is quite easy as if you are in am albergue and leave when most people leave you are just part of one big pack.

Aside from that I don't know what other steps one would suggest...

 

[whariwharangi]

I had a choice: I could walk the camino or I could go wander the hills of Afghanistan. I chose to walk the camino because I am allergic to lead poisoning.

Being a male I don't usually worry about sexual assault so I don't really have a reference to what fears women might have. I am becoming more worried about organ leggers ... but not enough to keep me at home.

Its the same choice you have to make. Decide where you want to travel, learn about the hazards, and determine how much risk you are prepared to take.

 

[Pruden]

Dear Ivar and the members of Camino de Santiago forum,
First of all I would like to thank Ivar for setting up this forum for all of us, the Camino lovers, to ask questions, exchange knowledge, share the support as well as the magic experience of the Camino.
Thank you for all the members of this forum to take the time and share their thoughts and advises to each other.
I'm a Canadian Vietnamese, living in Vancouver, BC. I love long walks and hiking and I am passionate about walking on the Camino. I walked 4 short routes of the Camino, and half of the French Camino on my own, mostly alone and I came out of it safe and sound. Regardless that I began my walk with the naivety that this road is a pilgrimage road and according to most comments I found on the internet and this forum that it is perfectly safe for a woman to walk alone. Moreover, I found peace, strength, kindness and camaraderie on this spiritual path and I long to come back to it.
In light of the recent missing of Denise Thiem and the increased reports of sexual harassment in the form of exhibitionists, sexual assaults and attempt rapes on the camino, I feel that all the advises and comments here in the forum are diverse and based on personal opinions. In some threads, I notice an air of ridicule , smirks and critics of spreading fears, which I am not agreed with. Sexual crimes are serious regardless where it happens. We should not take it lightly, especially on the Camino where the women walkers are double vulnerable because they are in a foreign country, lack of language and support. In fact, I read a few comments from the victims who said they didn't report the sexual crime happened to them, either to the police (due to the language barrier and their distrust to the authority in Spain) or to this forum(to avoid being ridicule because of spreading fear). Instead of just passively throw our opinions around here, I would like to see some meaningful actions. What can we do as a community to prevent and counteract with the sexual predators that attack woman on the camino?
I have the following questions/ suggestions:
1. Can we contact the pilgrim office in Santiago and all the associations of pilgrims associated with the Camino to request a communication to the local authorities along the Camino about the sexual harassment to have a formal acknowledgement of the police about this crime?
2. Can the pilgrim office request a clear guide from the Spanish police department of what to do, what number to call, where to report and what the procedure is. Is there a distress/ emergency line in English. Or what is the solution for non Spanish speakers. These informations are essential and accessible for pilgrims and posted clearly at all albergues.
3. On this forum, we need to have a thread for people who had been victims of sexual crimes to report/ alarm of their experience with full respect and support. We should encourage and show appreciation to the women who have the courage to report their frightening experience to alarm and to protect other women as well as all pilgrims who alert us about crimes happening on the camino. Safety and saving life is the utmost importance.
Supposedly, there is fear and if fear saves women's lives, or save them from the sexual violation, why not? Fear itself is not a negative thing, what one choose to do about it is where it shows positivity or negativity, and that remains a personal choice. I quoted it before and I repeat it here again, according to Gavin de Becker, fear is actually a gift that can save one's life! His book" The Gift of Fear", is widely known. Truly and importantly, raising the awareness is not spreading fear.
4. How can we raise this concern effectively to the pilgrim office, to the police?
5. How can we inform other pilgrims who are not on this forum? Non- English speaking pilgrim?
6. The Communication and guideline regarding this matter should be post at all albergues from starting points and along the way. Besides Spanish it should be translated a different languages including, English, French, German, Korean, Chinese and Japanese.
I don't know what can be done? What can I do? What can you do?
Please let me know.
Best,
Helen

Your are very wise person , I think you're right , fear is good if it's make people aware of certain danger.
I think one way we can help people is maybe ,letting know to everyone that enter an albergue , through the hospitalero or a piece of paper to be careful , and if any thing happens to report to the police trought a certain telephone number.
And I hope Ivar get a line in this forum for people to say their no so good experience or some kind or advise how to go and procedure in this cases!
Thanks !

 

[Brendan Dawson]

If anyone is all that concerned, just toddle along behind some others!
Simple solutions always work best !!!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

If anyone is all that concerned, just toddle along behind some others!
Simple solutions always work best !!!

Men don't even need a solution because there is no problem. They have the easy option of walking alone, a solution that is being denied women. So there is a problem that the simple solution does not solve! The simple solution for those who are anxious is "don't go." I think many would find that simple solution very unacceptable. At least to me, the purpose of this thread is to find the not-simple solution.

 

[Brendan Dawson]

Ah ! If only life were fair !

I guess a complex solution would be to assign a team of armed guards to all peregrines dequesting same ...or, perhaps, rule certain areas of the Camino "Only passable to mixed groups"

Meanwhile, I am looking at many smiling, but weary, peregrinettes walk by me here in Molinaseca !

 

[ricitosdeplata]

Almost all bad situations and events can be avoided by being aware of what is going on around you.

Michael, I agree with you. The rub is that all the awareness in the world can't keep you totally safe. I think this is why there is guilt when something bad happens and we question what we could have done to avoid it. Not that I'm expecting to ever be totally safe. I know that I will die someday but I have to live each day. Same with any possible danger. I do what I can and go on.

BTW, I read on this forum that 2 people walking together on VDLP were robbed by knife point by 2 men near Guillena. So even walking with another person isn't a guarantee of safety.

 

[camino4me]

Your are very wise person , I think you're right , fear is good if it's make people aware of certain danger.
I think one way we can help people is maybe ,letting know to everyone that enter an albergue , through the hospitalero or a piece of paper to be careful , and if any thing happens to report to the police trought a certain telephone number.
And I hope Ivar get a line in this forum for people to say their no so good experience or some kind or advise how to go and procedure in this cases!
Thanks !

Thank you for your positive comments. I wish Ivar'd review some of the comments and urge people to contribute according to the subject of the thread and to preserve a positive environment on this forum.
My purpose of creating this thread is a proposal to work together for strategies to fight against crime, not fighting, bullying and insulting your fellows pilgrims. I have been accused of spreading fear, "ridiculing fear monger" ( not my words), having irational fear and insulted by some of the veteran members of this forum as emotional and mental while I advertise neither fear nor advise people to stay away from the camino out of fear. My understanding is that courage is not without fear, it is being scared to death but saddling up anyway. As this forum is about inform, knowledge sharing, support and respect, it should be where those who have concern for women safety as well as victims voice their concern and bad experience freely. I wonder just because the number of reported case of missing person (1) exhibitionist, asault, rape is low that it makes victimization of women acceptable and irrelevant? How many more missing women to make women safety an issue? What statistic do we need to actually care? To me if the awareness raised here and on the camino would help prevent one woman from being harm by arming her with knowledge and caution to defend herself and ensure her safe return would be worthed trying!
Best regards.

 

[Gailsie]

Toddling along behind some others may not be a solution to me as a slow walker and slowing up all the time. I know that there are always a great number of pilgrims walking but I do remember sections where I did not see anyone for quite a time. I agree that a little fear is not a bad thing. In my fall 2009 camino I never had a concern about my personal safety, never even gave it a thought, but then again I was old, fat and ugly. By my next camino I will probably be close to 70 and will certainly be past running away from anyone stage. I will still make a camino if my health allows it.

 

[jpflavin1]

Based upon statistics you are absolutely right. The crime reported on the Camino happens all over the world--at significantly higher rates. For example, a woman in the Unites States is 2000 times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime at home versus the Camino.

This statement is totally out of context, imo. Crime, of all kinds, is based on a variety of factors and can not be summarized into a broad statement as above. If you want to make a comparison, at least use comparably sized cities. The largest city on the Frances is 200,000, with only two other cities over 100,000. The majority of cities, on the Camino, are very small. So it might be worthwhile to keep our statements in context.

Back to the topic. Helen is only asking for some type of guidance, from authorities, to be posted in Albergues. It could be as simple as call 112. I do not see this request as exhibiting fear or instilling fear in others. It is just a simple request, soliciting others view on this topic.

While supporting others ability to respond as to how they feel, I think telling people to stay at home is a pretty harsh response.

No-one, imo, by these types of statements is suggesting this safety issue is widespread or that the Camino is not safe to walk alone.

Hope this does not come off as to preachy and Buen Camino to all,
Joe

 

[camino4me]

For those who are interested in this topic I would encourage you to create a summary of things that can be done in the case of emergency. Many of us walk the Camino as pilgrims without ever thinking or preparing for these type of events...and we don't prepare for them. It is not living in fear to be prepared; it is knowing who to call and what to do.

The Camino is a pilgrimage for many, but it is a path of humanity. Bad things will happen and will occur.

Almost all bad situations and events can be avoided by being aware of what is going on around you.

The challenge for Camino4me and others who are inclined is to cooperate together and produce a summary of things individuals should know to be prepared.

Thank you for conveying my idea and offering positive feedback.

 

[Brendan Dawson]

Folks, last try.....as long as humans inhabit the earth, there will be those who spend their time operating outside the normal rules of decorum. That is a fact and publishing guidelines, establishing rules and enforcing laws will not change that.....for anyone, male or female !

Drawing on my background, a woman would not jog alone in Central Park (NYC), no white man would not drive his Cadllac with music blaring and windows down through Harlem and no black man would drive his 2015 Mercedes slowly through the streets of Greenwich, Connecticut.
In all cases they SHOULD be able to do it......but that is just not how the world works.

So, what to do ?

Employ a strategy that works.....and keep it simple !

Burn Camino

 

[camino4me]

This statement is totally out of context, imo. Crime, of all kinds, is based on a variety of factors and can not be summarized into a broad statement as above. If you want to make a comparison, at least use comparably sized cities. The largest city on the Frances is 200,000, with only two other cities over 100,000. The majority of cities, on the Camino, are very small. So it might be worthwhile to keep our statements in context.

Back to the topic, Helen is only asking for some type of guidance, from authorities, to be posted in Albergues. It could be as simple as call 112. I do not see this request as exhibiting fear or instilling fear in others. It is just a simple request, soliciting others view on this topic.

While supporting others ability to respond as to how they feel, I think telling people to stay at home is a pretty harsh response.

No-one, imo, by these types of statements is suggesting this safety issue is widespread or that the Camino is not safe to walk alone.

Hope this does not come off as to preachy and Buen Camino to all,
Joe

Hello Joe,
Thank you so much for your positive comments and accurate paraphrasing of my thread's subject and purpose.
The magic of the Camino and the valuable lessons on self, on humanity, kindness of strangers/ fellow walkers would be too precious for someone to miss it out of fear. I advocate for fighting against sexual crime on the camino and empowering women to walk fully aware of potential risk and prepare to defend themselves if needed be. I acknowledge that sometimes awareness and the companion of another might not guarantee us to be free from harm but it serves somewhat to prepare our reaction, taken during and after any crisis. Sometimes it will provide a chance to survive and a chance to inform the next fellows. I never advise women to stay home because of fear!
Buen Camino,
Best,
Helen

 

[Kathar1na]

An example that relates to Spain, not to places in Northern America where I have no intention of travelling to in the near future:

112 is a common emergeny telephone number that can be dialed free of charge from fixed or mobile telephones in order to reach emergeny services in any EU Member State (and a few other countries). It was introduced several years ago in the EU. However, it is not as universally known as 999 in the UK or 911 in the US, at least not to my generation because most of the EU countries had a different system and number (which are also still in operation).

In the EU country where I live there was a publicity campaign only last year to make the number 112 more widely known. If I see this number more frequently, for example in guidebooks or pamphlets or noticeboards, it may help to think of it quickly and automatically in an emergency or even perhaps just a panic situation. I assume it may be that sort of thing the initial poster had in mind.

 

[RobertS26]

Is like to empower everyone to walk the Camino by letting them know that statistically speaking it's safer than going to New York City or Las Vegas on vacation. I was actually hit by a taxi two Caminos ago. I was not seriously injured, the taxi driver was at fault, and profusely apologized. But that did not prevent me from going on a fourth Camino last month. Why? Because I know I stand a far greater chance of dying in an automobile/pedestrian accident in the Unites States than on the Camino. Life is not perfect. It comes with risks. You have to weigh those risks and make decisions. My comments about how safe the Camino is should not be taken to mean that I'm insensitive about safety along the Camino. I just want new people to this Forum to understand that the Camino is relatively far safer than other vacations you can take. So if you choose to live life, then the Camino is a great place to take the bull by the horns and have a life changing experience.

 

[whariwharangi]

Thank you for your positive comments. I wish Ivar'd review some of the comments and urge people to contribute according to the subject of the thread and to preserve a positive environment on this forum.
My purpose of creating this thread is a proposal to work together for strategies to fight against crime, not fighting, bullying and insulting your fellows pilgrims. I have been accused of spreading fear, "ridiculing fear monger" ( not my words), having irational fear and insulted by some of the veteran members of this forum as emotional and mental while I advertise neither fear nor advise people to stay away from the camino out of fear. My understanding is that courage is not without fear, it is being scared to death but saddling up anyway. As this forum is about inform, knowledge sharing, support and respect, it should be where those who have concern for women safety as well as victims voice their concern and bad experience freely. I wonder just because the number of reported case of missing person (1) exhibitionist, asault, rape is low that it makes victimization of women acceptable and irrelevant? How many more missing women to make women safety an issue? What statistic do we need to actually care? To me if the awareness raised here and on the camino would help prevent one woman from being harm by arming her with knowledge and caution to defend herself and ensure her safe return would be worthed trying!
Best regards.

The issue I am having with this is discussion is that it is somehow being transitioned into a camino problem when in fact it is a societal problem.

just because the number of reported case of missing person (1) exhibitionist, asault, rape is low that it makes victimization of women acceptable and irrelevant?

Go to the local police station. You will likely find a wall of paper showing missing persons. Literally thousands every year. Same goes for victimization of women; this is not a camino specific issue.

 

[Albertagirl]

I have never found statistics comforting. As an unmarried women (safe from domestic abuse and murder) not involved in crime (so safe from crime wars) I consider myself safe from two of the commonest causes of violence in my city. I don't drive a car (safe from mad taxi drivers and other road hazards). In short, I feel largely safe at all places and times in my own city. But I remain very concerned by the upsurge of news and reports about sexual violence recently associated with the camino. This is primarily because of the type of crime. Sexual violence is not the same as a traffic accident, although it is probably much less common among unrelated persons. Sexual violence and insults (flashing, public masturbation etc) disturb me in a very personal way, threaten my bodily integrity and the security of my person. I feel a disgust which somehow tarnishes the camino as a pilgrimage route. This has to be dealt with by me, psychologically and spiritually, but I am saddened by the necessity. I am not however afraid, as I shall certainly be if I need to cross a busy highway on the camino route. I am just disturbed. I shall be on the camino in the fall, God willing. I offer my support, if needed, to any woman insulted or threatened sexually, and I hope that it will not be needed on the camino.

 

[LizMo]

Helen. I tend to agree. Some comments (not all) on forum about men exposing themselves, harrassment, and unwanted assualts tend to be played down & not taken very seriously. Even if one person (male or female) feels unsafe while on their camino, that should be enough reason to be in high alert of these predators. My camino starts in September, if I experience an unwanted approach by any individual, I will take their photo and pass it on to an authority (police and/or town officials). I would also suggest that the forum take a lead on posting these individuals photos on a forum thread to alert all piligrims on whom they should avoid.

Safe Camino to All.

 

[GAUVINS]

When my companion and I walked the Francés we instinctively gave a wide berth to all parked cars / vans, even those offering food and drinks. It was only after I returned home that I read on this Forum about the 'Camino Angels' who offer sustenance to pilgrims along the way, and I felt bad about having treated these vehicles and their occupants with such scepticism

1. Fear has a cost. I read a couple of years ago that several old episodes of Sesame Street (a popular American TV show for preschoolers) could no longer be aired because of questionable content such as an old man buying an ice cream cone to a kid. Parents now teach their kids to avoid talking to strangers...

Fear of people is reaching alarming proportions. A few days ago, in a busy train station, I was trying to get rid of small change brought back from halfway around the world. Twice I asked a mom who had what looked like a 6 year-old in tow if she'd like to take the few Chilean and Argentinian pesos I had with me (but didn't want to carry all the way to Santiago). Twice I saw fear followed by no thanks. Somehow I had fantasized that the kid would have learned about conquistadors and the Andes and maybe even of the Cape Horn. But I guess it's been TV as usual.

I am saying this because raising the profile of regrettable incidents may kill the essence of the walk.

2. Even if such events are rare, I am in total agreement with the OP that they are unacceptable. I have been in parts of the world where educated men confided that women were treated like animals. I do not think this applies to Spain but correct me if I am wrong.

3. I very much doubt that shouting "I know the emergency number" to an aggressor is an effective strategy. There are sources of advice that could be used to create a Camino - specific resource.

 

[camino4me]

Helen. I tend to agree. Some comments (not all) on forum about men exposing themselves, harrassment, and unwanted assualts tend to be played down & not taken very seriously. Even if one person (male or female) feels unsafe while on their camino, that should be enough reason to be in high alert of these predators. My camino starts in September, if I experience an unwanted approach by any individual, I will take their photo and pass it on to an authority (police and/or town officials). I would also suggest that the forum take a lead on posting these individuals photos on a forum thread to alert all piligrims on whom they should avoid.

Safe Camino to All.

Thanks LizMo,

Enjoy a safe and magnificent Camino,

Buen Camino,

 

[Pabloke]

May be a good idea to learn some Spanish if you are planning to cross Spain. Language is like money, you can travel without it but you'll be more vulnerable. No problem, if you accept it, but you can't call it 'barrier' since it's your own decision.

Not everybody has the same level of concern so you have to expect a wide range of answers. Stay at home is not a bad advice if you're feeling the Camino as dangerous.

 

[dougfitz]

I would also suggest that the forum take a lead on posting these individuals photos on a forum thread to alert all piligrims on whom they should avoid.

Safe Camino to All.

This would be a travesty of natural justice. There is no place here for someone to stand accused without an opportunity to have their side heard in a proper and considered manner. If there is an issue, tell the police. We are not here to form a lynch mob!

 

[waveprof]

Fear is currently the biggest danger afflicting the camino. There are other very real dangers as well, and they likely do include those who would commit sexual assault, but the danger that the current fear-wave poses is the biggest threat. To quote FDR we have nothing to fear but fear itself. That isn't quite true here, but we are closer to that truth than the opposite.

 

[LizMo]

Dougfitz, no need to take this personal, not asking for anyone's opinion. Just a suggestion. This is my first post to forum, probably my last. Too much hostility for me.

 

[rometimed]

Helen. I tend to agree. Some comments (not all) on forum about men exposing themselves, harrassment, and unwanted assualts tend to be played down & not taken very seriously. Even if one person (male or female) feels unsafe while on their camino, that should be enough reason to be in high alert of these predators. My camino starts in September, if I experience an unwanted approach by any individual, I will take their photo and pass it on to an authority (police and/or town officials). I
would also suggest that the forum take a lead on posting these individuals photos on a
forum thread to alert all piligrims on whom they should avoid.


Safe Camino to All.

"Unwanted approach"

What does that mean? I've met many cool people on Camino through "unwanted approaches"....

 

[dougfitz]

Dougfitz, no need to take this personal, not asking for anyone's opinion. Just a suggestion. This is my first post to forum, probably my last. Too much hostility for me.

I am not taking this personally, although it appears that you might be! I have rebutted your suggestion, and said why. If you still think it has merit to 'name and shame' without any form of due process, you are entitled to say so.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The truth is that other than on this forum there is no fear or talk of fear. When I have brought up Denise's case it was rapidly dismissed other than for thoughts for her and her family. Even standing in front of the poster about her disappearance while waiting in line tongrt one's Compostela it does not raise an eyebrow.

This forum microcosm is distorting reality, a bit like when one of my American acquaintances was afraid for me comming to Spain due to the economic crisis: yes, there is food in the shops, and people have not resorted to ride donkeys rather than drive their cars.

Inhave discribed the Camino as summer camp for adults, but it is not an organised activity, with rules and regulstions, nor special measures to protect the client. All it is a a series of marked paths are linked together, nothing more, nothing less. To expect, and/or want tomturn this in an organisation of somesort with its own vigilantees is just such a rupture with the history of tjis pilgrimage, a ver personal and individual venture.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

"Unwanted approach"

What does that mean? I've met many cool people on Camino through "unwanted approaches"....

I suppose that also means not greeting people whose homes we pass, the lady at the veggie store, the bus driver, the old man working in his field. Ah, wait, silly me, wevdon't talk to these people either since we don't botherbto learn the language and then complain about not habing the sufficient skills to cope.

 

[rometimed]

I suppose that also means not greeting people whose homes we pass, the lady at the veggie store, the bus driver, the old man working in his field.

This is my problem. The PC crowd loves to do that these days... stretch a small issue into vilification. I had a tall Dutch woman approach me when I was eating last week. She wanted to ask me what I do since I pass her so often. I didn't want her approaching me... should I take her picture and plaster on the Internet with label "omg watch out!"?

 

[camino4me]

I suppose that also means not greeting people whose homes we pass, the lady at the veggie store, the bus driver, the old man working in his field.

Anemone del Camino and Rometime,

I think LizMo didn't mean unwanted approach here as you translated. I believe she refers to the sexual harassment if happened to her on the Camino. Please keep your comment positive and stick to the subject of this thread. If this thread does not share your point of view, please don't take it personal and unfollow it as well as allow people who share the view with this subject to contribute.

As Ivar did not adverse to the subject of this thread, in fact, he states, "this subject is important to bring up" please safeguard the positivity and the respect towards one another on this forum.

This is where the demonstration to the fellowship and generocity of the camino should be displayed, first and foremost. LizMo felt too much hostility here and resulted in her withdrawal, is this necessary? Is this kind of attitude the veterans of this forum want to display to new members? Is anything concern women safety discussed here is prohibited or downplayed and ridiculed?

I only repeat what Ivar reminded us here, Don't take thing personal. It is about inform and support on safety issue regarding the Camino we all love.

Thank you

 

[MendiWalker]

As some of you know I live in Bilbo which is on the Camino del Norte and my wife and I hike our mountains every weekend. Today we ended our hike in Markina. For those who have walked the Camino del Norte you may remember that as you leave Markina there is a small park that has 2 picnic tables and a fountain. As my wife and I walked towards one of them to have some lunch there was a German peregrino sitting at one of the tables resting and rubbing his tired feet before he continued on his Camino. When I took out a piece of Idiazabal cheese and offered him a piece he accepted it and thanked me with a smile and once tried he said it was really good. As we parted I said my usual "Ondo Ibili !" and left him there lacing up his boots while my wife and I walked towards the bus stop. Thank God he didn't jump up and run away in fear.

Good things and bad things happen everywhere on this planet even on the Camino. And all you can do if something bad does happen is exactly as you must do when you are at home. That is report it to the authorities in other words the police. Telling anyone else is a waste of time and a useless effort. If the police have no news of a crime ( big or small) they can't do a thing about it. And once it´s reported we should let them do their work and try to get on with our lives. Having said that a day does not go by that my thought go out towards not only Denise and her family but to any other person who suffers in this world.

Ondo Ibili !

 

[rometimed]

Apologies I thought it was an honest question. If you are assaulted yes go to the police... take pictures... plaster forums.

If someone won't leave you alone, Ditto.

Beyond that... what do you want to classify as an "unwanted approach"? Many won't know you don't want them approaching until they approach. I deal with this on Camino walking by sticking in earphones and walking by them.

 

[cher99840]

Let me make sure I understand. You have opened a topic in a forum, but the only people who are welcome to contribute are the people who agree with you. Did I get that right?

 

[camino4me]

Let me make sure I understand. You have opened a topic in a forum, but the only people who are welcome to contribute are the people who agree with you. Did I get that right?

Certainly not, I could not stop anyone to post on this thread regardless of their view. But I only remind everyone to remain positive and respectful. What negativity or fear exhibits to female pilgrims who walked alone by inform them of potential threat? If this subject and thread is offensive, you can bring it up to Ivar. No need to express hostility and shun others.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Anemone del Camino and Rometime,

I think LizMo didn't mean unwanted approach here as you translated. I believe she refers to the sexual harassment if happened to her on the Camino. Please keep your comment positive and stick to the subject of this thread. If this thread does not share your point of view, please don't take it personal and unfollow it as well as allow people who share the view with this subject to contribute.

As Ivar did not adverse to the subject of this thread, in fact, he states, "this subject is important to bring up" please safeguard the positivity and the respect towards one another on this forum.

This is where the demonstration to the fellowship and generocity of the camino should be displayed, first and foremost. LizMo felt too much hostility here and resulted in her withdrawal, is this necessary? Is this kind of attitude the veterans of this forum want to display to new members? Is anything concern women safety discussed here is prohibited or downplayed and ridiculed?

I only repeat what Ivar reminded us here, Don't take thing personal. It is about inform and support on safety issue regarding the Camino we all love.

Thank you

Information and tips, and support has been given nonstop for months. If you want to go ahead and create a document you feel can be useful, then by all means, do it and post it, just like ithers have regarding a particular Camino etc, but please do not try to make the Camino, or this forum, what it is not. Again, this poor horse have been flogged enough.

 

[Kim DeCelles]

Dear Ivar and the members of Camino de Santiago forum,
First of all I would like to thank Ivar for setting up this forum for all of us, the Camino lovers, to ask questions, exchange knowledge, share the support as well as the magic experience of the Camino.
Thank you for all the members of this forum to take the time and share their thoughts and advises to each other.
I'm a Canadian Vietnamese, living in Vancouver, BC. I love long walks and hiking and I am passionate about walking on the Camino. I walked 4 short routes of the Camino, and half of the French Camino on my own, mostly alone and I came out of it safe and sound. Regardless that I began my walk with the naivety that this road is a pilgrimage road and according to most comments I found on the internet and this forum that it is perfectly safe for a woman to walk alone. Moreover, I found peace, strength, kindness and camaraderie on this spiritual path and I long to come back to it.
In light of the recent missing of Denise Thiem and the increased reports of sexual harassment in the form of exhibitionists, sexual assaults and attempt rapes on the camino, I feel that all the advises and comments here in the forum are diverse and based on personal opinions. In some threads, I notice an air of ridicule , smirks and critics of spreading fears, which I am not agreed with. Sexual crimes are serious regardless where it happens. We should not take it lightly, especially on the Camino where the women walkers are double vulnerable because they are in a foreign country, lack of language and support. In fact, I read a few comments from the victims who said they didn't report the sexual crime happened to them, either to the police (due to the language barrier and their distrust to the authority in Spain) or to this forum(to avoid being ridicule because of spreading fear). Instead of just passively throw our opinions around here, I would like to see some meaningful actions. What can we do as a community to prevent and counteract with the sexual predators that attack woman on the camino?
I have the following questions/ suggestions:
1. Can we contact the pilgrim office in Santiago and all the associations of pilgrims associated with the Camino to request a communication to the local authorities along the Camino about the sexual harassment to have a formal acknowledgement of the police about this crime?
2. Can the pilgrim office request a clear guide from the Spanish police department of what to do, what number to call, where to report and what the procedure is. Is there a distress/ emergency line in English. Or what is the solution for non Spanish speakers. These informations are essential and accessible for pilgrims and posted clearly at all albergues.
3. On this forum, we need to have a thread for people who had been victims of sexual crimes to report/ alarm of their experience with full respect and support. We should encourage and show appreciation to the women who have the courage to report their frightening experience to alarm and to protect other women as well as all pilgrims who alert us about crimes happening on the camino. Safety and saving life is the utmost importance.
Supposedly, there is fear and if fear saves women's lives, or save them from the sexual violation, why not? Fear itself is not a negative thing, what one choose to do about it is where it shows positivity or negativity, and that remains a personal choice. I quoted it before and I repeat it here again, according to Gavin de Becker, fear is actually a gift that can save one's life! His book" The Gift of Fear", is widely known. Truly and importantly, raising the awareness is not spreading fear.
4. How can we raise this concern effectively to the pilgrim office, to the police?
5. How can we inform other pilgrims who are not on this forum? Non- English speaking pilgrim?
6. The Communication and guideline regarding this matter should be post at all albergues from starting points and along the way. Besides Spanish it should be translated a different languages including, English, French, German, Korean, Chinese and Japanese.
I don't know what can be done? What can I do? What can you do?
Please let me know.
Best,
Helen

These are well thought out ideas. Hopefully they can be implemented. Thank you .

 

[camino4me]

Dear all,

I would like to resume the comments received on this thread so far.

My advocate on ways to communicate to authority in Spain and to authority of pilgrims for the needs to alert and inform female pilgrims who walk alone of possible threat of sexual harassment on the Camino has failed. Though many of you share your views and support, there were no suggestion to take it further.

I still lay the question here for Ivar and those of you who reside in Spain if there is anything you can do.

I thank you all for contributing, the positive thing is some of you have offer valuable infos for others to pick up on. Things such as:

- A working phone with Spanish sim to call the police or emergency crew. Store the number in your phone quick dial.

- The emergency # in Spain and Portugal is 112

Via Lusitania has an emergency Ph No (+352) 915595 213 for people walking the Caminho Portuguese

-Small prints of emergency contact on the pilgrim credential or list of the albergues distributed to pilgrim.

- Announcement by word of mouth or posting on wall of the albergues of these infos

- Aware of your environment

- Walk in visibility of others if possible

- Always report to the police any incident of sexual crimes.

- Alert the next albergue of the incident.

I'm sure these basic measures could be valuable for many pilgrims on the way.
The questions still remain on how to distribute this info out effectively.


I keep my view on respect and take other concern for safety legitimate and respect victims' statement on this forum. I will continue to take the alert and warning of sexual crimes on the Camino seriously.
There are many of you supported my view and some of you who cloaked it as campaign of fear and accusing me of having irrational fear. I have never exhibited fear, or advocated fear! That is never my point of view. For those of you who insistently accused me of promoting fear, it simply expresses your skewed perception, nothing I say will change your mind. Yet, I am glad there are quite a few people who recognised my true intention and appreciated it.

I'm sure in the city where each of you live if there were incidents of sexual attacks or harassments and the perpetrator was at large, the authority of your community would issue warning to the women in your community of the risk. Is this act perceived and criticized as spreading fear to its citizens? Did it mean that women would stop their activities and remain inside? No, they proceed to live their lives, fully aware of the threat lurking in their community, they just have to take some extra precautions, if necessary. I advocate for the same alert system for pilgrims through the Spanish authority and the pilgrim office. Speaking of which I have to credit the Spanish authority and media on the alarm they sent out in the missing of Denise Thiem and the attempt kidnap of one local woman.

You have the right to express your opinion. However, I don't appreciate the insult and disrespect that some of you expressed towards me. It did not demonstrate the kindness and brotherhood I had experienced on the Camino. Certainly not what I anticipate to see on this forum.

I think this thread have been exchanged enough infos and views. Positive and negative, abusive and empowering . Regardless, I still think it is worthed to lay it out as a different view and as the opposite side of the conversation.

I think we should move on from here.
Thank you all for contributing,

Buen Camino

 

[amorfati1]

Folks, last try.....as long as humans inhabit the earth, there will be those who spend their time operating outside the normal rules of decorum. That is a fact and publishing guidelines, establishing rules and enforcing laws will not change that.....for anyone, male or female !

Drawing on my background, a woman would not jog alone in Central Park (NYC), no white man would not drive his Cadllac with music blaring and windows down through Harlem and no black man would drive his 2015 Mercedes slowly through the streets of Greenwich, Connecticut.
In all cases they SHOULD be able to do it......but that is just not how the world works.

So, what to do ?

Employ a strategy that works.....and keep it simple !

Burn Camino

spot on -
and i had to chuckle on the 'burn camino' typo.
this topic certainly did set something ablaze!

 

[camino4me]

spot on -
and i had to chuckle on the 'burn camino' typo.
this topic certainly did set something ablaze!

Hahaha, Agreed, thank you for pointing it out!

 

[rometimed]

Okay I don't mean to be negative as this seems to be coming from a proactive place but your analogy of a city having a sexual assualts crisis and getting the word out compared to an entire nation having a few incidents is quite drastically different.

Using Canada as an example that would be like saying "there has been 6 murders in Ottawa in the last month... Alberta residents be vigilant!"... places along the Camino and regions of Spain are quite distinct and different.

Just today in the Spanish paper we had at breakfast there was a half page on Denise and where she went missing and possible problem areas.

On the ground female pilgrims are made aware and told they can skip that section or walk with others... I have yet to meet one who is skipping...

 

[Ottawa123]

peregrinettes

There are called pilgrims, sir. Not peregrinettes.

 

[Ottawa123]

I will continue to take the alert and warning of sexual crimes on the Camino seriously.

The hostility in some of the posts is thinly veiled. So is the trivialization.

Some would rather keep talking about sleeping bags, foot creams, and how many grams a facecloth weighs...maybe it's a more comfortable horse to flog.

Glad you created this post. Keeping sexual harassment on the camino from being pushed in a convenient (and quiet) corner is important. Women have been quiet long enough about these things.

 

[Jacobus]

Let me make sure I understand. You have opened a topic in a forum, but the only people who are welcome to contribute are the people who agree with you. Did I get that right?

The obvious has finally been stated! thank you.

 

[Kathar1na]

I am saying this because raising the profile of regrettable incidents may kill the essence of the walk.

I doubt that the discussions on this board will make a noticeable dent into the ever increasing numbers of people walking in particular in Spain or on how they experience walking.

I very much doubt that shouting "I know the emergency number" to an aggressor is an effective strategy.

I am curious: did you walk from Amiens in Northern France to SJPdP or are you planning to do so? I walked from Saint Quentin which is not far away from Amiens and the comment I made concerning the EU wide emergency number 112 was meant as an illustration for the actual topic of this discussion which always seems in danger of veering into a general debate about how all women must feel about the Camino, but also based on my experience of walking this distance as a woman, on travelling frequently within the EU, on the problems with cell phone/mobile phone/GSM roaming and 3G net coverage etc. and on what made me feel safer (emphasis on feel) when I crossed empty stretches like Les Landes for example or (some) suburbs of larger towns along this 1000+ km chemin.

As to the references to home towns: I know the place where I live. I did not know most of the villages, towns and regions I crossed during my walk. It was only afterwards that I knew what they were like. And it was the first and probably only time that I walked through them, I have no plans to repeat the experience and become an eternal Camino walker. Makes a difference, at least to me.

 

[dougfitz]

The questions still remain on how to distribute this info out effectively.

None of the information that you suggest needs to be distributed more effectively is not already widely available on the internet and in other ways through national agencies like the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade Smartraveller site, travel oriented advice sites run by major publishers like Lonely Planet and a variety of other sources. Reminders of the basics in places like albergues might be a useful addition, but if travellers are not going to read the advice when it is almost put in front of them in other places, it is unlikely they will do so in albergues either.

I advocate for the same alert system for pilgrims through the Spanish authority and the pilgrim office.

And I will suggest that it is by and large an individual's responsibility to prepare themselves and manage their own safety and security. Trying to make organizations carry the weight of individuals' responsibility does not make sense to me, and I suspect many others.

Certainly contemplate that the message needs to get out to pilgrims. I suspect that the police and other authorities use the press extensively for this, and it might be you are asking for them to do something that they are already doing, and you just don't know it or haven't seen it. If you don't have the language skills to read the local papers, it might mean ensuring that you have internet access to those sources in your own language. Albergues and other places have vastly improved access to the internet since I first walked in 2010, and in most places wifi is available so that personal devices can be connected easily.

Create your own camino specific resources if you must, but be aware that there is already a wealth of readily accessible good advice out there that responsible travellers can access.

 

[Kathar1na]

I just want to thank you, Dougfitz, for staying on topic.

 

[Kathar1na]

Out of curiosity, I looked into one of the most popular guides (in English) on "St Jean-Roncesvalles-Santiago" which has this to say under Safety: "The camino offers a remarkably safe environment in an inherently unsafe world. Very few cases of unsettling behaviour are reported but it is wise to be cautious when travelling alone especially late in the evening or at night. Incidents of theft etc etc ...". Hm, unsettling behaviour ... ? The (male) author also advises to consider leaving one's mobile phone behind as "your experience will be enhanced by so doing".

 

[dougfitz]

The (male) author also advises to consider leaving one's mobile phone behind as "your experience will be enhanced by so doing".

Even as a bloke, I find that an odd piece of advice, both in guidebooks and on this forum. There are a whole host of reasons, not just the one under discussion, to be able to call or stay in contact with the 'outside world'. Being able to doesn't mean that you have to be in contact, just that you can be when needed.

 

[kellyz]

The statistics aren't comparable. We're talking about crimes or offenses committed against women on or near the Camino de Santiago. That's pretty specific. We're not talking crimes in Spain vs. the US. Even talking NY, we'd have to break it down by neighborhood, time of day, activity, to have any sense of who is in danger and when...
Anyway. I've walked five Caminos. I was never assaulted and no one ever exposed themselves. However, I certainly felt fearful at times. Why? Because I am a woman and I was occasionally very much alone, especially on non-Frances routes. This fear I felt was not specific to the Camino--it was just the general fear of being a woman alone in a remote area. However, the difference between being a woman on the Camino and a woman in _________ City, USA, is that I convinced myself that I was probably a lot safer on the Camino than in the US, as is its reputation, and that my worries were silly. Actually, I read that people in Spain treat Pilgrims with a special respect, casting a sort of safety net over them, and I took this to heart. With the many, many reports recently, I realize that I wasn't silly to feel the usual, occasional fear, and it is perhaps misguided of apologists to suggest the Camino is a crime-free/sexual-assault free haven for solo female travelers.
I think it would be both reasonable and helpful for their to be clear, factual information somewhere about the number of crimes or offenses against women that were reported, and where. Just as it would be helpful to know the number of robberies reported and where, or incidents of cars hitting pilgrims. In the US, I can read the crime reports for my neighborhood every week and make some informed decisions about locking my doors or being alert in particular situations. As a traveler on the Camino, there is no easily accessible information about crime statistics on the Camino--that I know of--just individual reports on the forum or stories in various local papers. I think it would be useful to have this info somewhere. Not sure why this is such a touchy topic. It sounds like people just want information, a useful tool for individuals to make their own choices.

 

[grayland]

Another appeal to keep the personal remarks out of the forum as per the ...."RULES."..

It is important for everyone to understand that this English language forum represents a very small fraction of the Pilgrim population on the Camino.
It is perfectly fine.. and a grand idea to share ideas to enhance the safety of our Lady Pilgrims. But in the real world we will have little impact on the conduct of other non-forum Pilgrims...the vast majority of which have never heard of us.

This forum and it's members really have no way to implement a Camino wide safety program. It is a shame...but there it is.

 

[rometimed]

Crime statistics specifically targeting pilgrims would be helpful but you wont ever have a very accurate account. Moreover any conclusions you draw outside of charges are guess work.

As an example the only crime I am aware of in the last 10 days (where I have walked) on pilgrims was a young woman who had her trekking poles stolen at a municipal albergue in Lagrono.

She didn't report it but put up signs in Albergues there and in the next town. But, as speculated by a Spanish women, it is likely they were stolen by some drunk parties as during the weekend the cities of that size are flooded with bachelor and Bachelorette parties.

An Albergue gave here poles someone else had left behind months before.

I don't know how you would get accurate data on your request.

 

[GAUVINS]

did you walk from Amiens

From Roissy.

(tried to get back through private conversation but couldn't)

 

[camino4me]

Okay I don't mean to be negative as this seems to be coming from a proactive place but your analogy of a city having a sexual assualts crisis and getting the word out compared to an entire nation having a few incidents is quite drastically different.

Using Canada as an example that would be like saying "there has been 6 murders in Ottawa in the last month... Alberta residents be vigilant!"... places along the Camino and regions of Spain are quite distinct and different.

Just today in the Spanish paper we had at breakfast there was a half page on Denise and where she went missing and possible problem areas.

On the ground female pilgrims are made aware and told they can skip that section or walk with others... I have yet to meet one who is skipping...

Thank you, you just made my point when pointing out the newspread and warning about missing of Denise and the information provided for women pilgrims on your camino. Did the news cause fear? Did it make them stop? No!!! It gave them option to choose how they want to proceed. Isn't that what I conveyed throughout my messages?


Regarding my example of alerting for crime, I think you misunderstood my idea. I meant to say that for sexual crime happened in a graphical area, local authority always informs women of that area to be vigilant and not necessarily alarming the whole nation. However, in the case of Denise's disappearance it has been proved otherwise, her missing has been alarming all over Spain on TV and newspapers, on the news in the US, on FB, in the age of technology, the news can be distributed faster than imagine.

As grayland points out it is ashame that not much can be done by this forum and its members to inform the crowd outside of this forum, yet from your report, and Doug's comment, I have hope that curently the Spanish goverment has done an excellent job of alarming the women pilgrims to be vigilant and be safe to the best in their ability. Then, my concern of this issue is answered.

Thx.

 

[tyrrek]

I wonder how many people may be put off contacting the police through fear of the language barrier or bureaucracy etc. I speak reasonable Spanish, but I still hate using it on the phone.

Would it be useful for pilgrims to have some kind of questionnaire-style form in English and Spanish that could be completed BEFORE going to a police station to outline the nature of the complaint right from the off? I"m thinking of key details (when, where, who, what), in a mix of tick boxes and open text. It would require a lot of thought and accurate translation to specify clearly (for example) whether an offence had been committed or attempted, or if behaviour had just been suspicious/threatening. Obviously this would not replace emergency contact numbers etc for serious and/or urgent cases.

Ideally something like this would come from the authorities themselves to get intelligence about any issues along the route as they emerge. However, even an unofficial version could be useful if it gave people the confidence to report.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Are we done yet on this thread?

 

[ivar]

I think most has been said about this topic. Let's move on...