An unholy year on the Camino Frances

[gregdedman]

I've been mulling over writing this post for a long time now, weighing up both the plus and negative points, as far back as November when I found myself in the middle of my second Camino Frances, just three years after my 1st.

What prompted me to begin scribbling notes, details, thoughts and photographs was a deep, ingrained belief for this magical path that enriched my life so very much back in the summer of 2007 and the desire to provide a little handful of balance to the hundreds of rightly positive postings on forums like these.
Please don't take me for a moaner, groaner or somewhat grumpy fellow, but I feel with the WHOLE story, others are able to make informed choices and maybe positive actions can be discussed and implemented to rectify what has become a major issue on this particular route.

So please do take a few minutes of your day to hear my thoughts and feelings and I apologise for the length in advance!

If you are a little squeamish then I would warn you to read with caution, and if at any point you begin to feel a little uncomfortable with what you are reading, then maybe you have, at some point, in some tiny way, contributed to this problem.

In 2007, sure, there were a fair few stand-out negatives, but that is normal with any trip. What I do not recall were the mountains of litter, decescrated ancient ruins and religious artifacts, pointless graffiti and pile upon pile upon pile of human excrement complete with used toilet roll.
From the beginning of the Camino Frances all the way to Santiago, the aformentioned became an unfortunate constant and the more I saw this complete disregard for others, the more upset and angry I became.

What I want to do is to firstly lay out, in plain speak, what I saw at different points along the Camino and provide photos of these issues. With these photos, please don't assume I've chosen the 'worst case scenario', the photos I've uploaded are typical of what I saw. The photos show no exageration or 'set up'.

Litter

Throughout the 800km of the Camino Frances litter was a constant eyesore.
Theres a whole other argument here for some people regarding whos responsibility is is to clear litter. Numbers of pilgrims in the peak months are sky high and waste bins are few and far between, what bins there are are sometimes woefully overflowing. However, on a very basic level, walking anywhere in the countryside, should mean that you 'take out what you take in' or 'take only photos, leave only footsteps'. Whatever happened to that mantra?

For information a glass drinks bottle will take around 2 million years to decompose.
A metal drinks can will take anywhere between 1-1000 years to decompose.
A plastic bottle will NEVER decompose.
Even a banana peel will take a month.

The beautiful Meseta, before San Bol.

Toilet litter beside the beautiful canal before Fromista.

The utterly disgraceful scene in a ditch beside the wooded path after Gonzar.

A wayward celebration (one of three bottles) 100km before Santiago.

The Camino passes through hundreds of small villages, towns and cities for pilgrims to dispose of their rubbish properly. Many places now have recycling facilities right on the path which should ensure there is no excuse to just drop it when you feel. You are never far from a place to dispose of litter so please pack it away (you packed it in the first place) and carry it out.

The truly stunning woodland out of Portomarin was where I chose to start counting. I walked several kilometers counting how many drinks containers I could see just from the path (sad man I hear you say). Not including what went unseen, and the various other types of litter, In just 1km (between km posts 88 and 89) I happened upon 226 plastic water bottles and drinks cans. It may not sound a lot, but add that up over 800km and its a hefty sum! (181,000). This was a random section I chose to count but the figures spoke for themselves. What made it worse was in these places there WERE half full litter bins dotted along the path!

Graffiti

Now graffiti is someti seen as an art form and on the Camino there are indeed wonderful works of art adorning the walls of underpasses, houses and albergues but for most people it is seen as anti-social. The hard fact of the matter is that graffiti is illegal vandalism in the eyes of the law and if you feel the desire to get creative then there could be a better time and a better place.
What I did see thoughtout, especially on official Camino signage were 'Tags', names of people passing by and also, from time to time even notes to fellow pilgrims on where to meet in the town ahead. Seriously, if you need to leave a note for someone behind you, try writing on a piece of paper and placing it under a rock, if no-one picks it up, its classed as litter, but surely its better than scribbling on someone elses property?!

If anyone wants to come forward and identify themselves as 'Sergio' or 'Denis and Ocean', I felt like I really got to know you.

Did you ever catch up with them Laura?

Human excrement

I saved the worst for last. I am at a loss to explain simply WHY I and every other pilgrim who walked the Camino Frances after this summer had to be witness to such a disgusting site, time after time. One pilgrim said she read a forum post somewhere (not necessarily here) that advised going to the toilet in the outdoors and not worrying about it as the waste decomposes...ill come back to this in a moment.
On day two of my Camino, between Roncesvalles and Larasoana I could not find a nice spot off the track for lunch. At every single break in the brush, I nipped through to find piles of used toilet roll and human excrement. I darent sit anywhere nearby for the urine soaking the grass.
This was a constant problem the whole way along the Camino, watch out behind bales of hay in particular. Before Los Arcos, there is a little stream, small bridge and a large pile of bales, lovely spot out of the wind for a rest....but for the excrement.

On the Meseta things took a turn for the worse. Yes, villages are more spread out here but still, if you do hear the call of nature there are proper ways of disposing of the waste not only to make the way prettier, but also to prevent disease to your fellow pilgrims and other living creatures. As for the toilet roll, come on guys!!!

For information on how to properly toilet outdoors see this link

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/proper-outdoor-defecation/

Ironically, before my Camino this time, I jokingly posted a link to a document that light-heartedly addressed this issue.

http://www.caminodesantiago.me/board/el-camino-frances/topic9487.html

For information...
It can take 2-3 years for toilet paper to decompose (they are designed to decompose quicker in septic tanks, hence putting them down our toilets)
The time it takes human faeces to decompose can vary drastically!
What is for sure is that it doen's magically disappear.

One hard and fast tip I'd suggest if you just must go is BURY IT away from the path! Animals sometimes prefer this method, its a shame some pilgrims don't.

On the Camino Frances before San Bol. Fields both sides, however, this pilgrim thought they'd leave a present for all behind them. Thank you.

Inside the beautiful old stone toll house along the Fromista canal.
The smell of urine in here was overpowering!

This photo was taken at the base of the beautiful red cross that stands just before San Bol. Not even sites like these escape some pilgrim's disrespect.

So there we have it.
I apologise if my post has bored you or offended you, I have attempted to write it as I, and my fellow pilgrims saw it during the months of November and December 2010. I have been scarcastic in places but I never felt like I wanted to be light hearted about a subject that I passionately feel needs addressing.
There seems to be millions spent on new albergues or refurbishments along the way but if anything, there were less litter bins than 2007 and speaking to several locals I gathered that funds over the years had been woefully spent in places...even wasted.

I am willing to start something to get a solution rolling but I need your help.
whatever skill or situation, I believe we can all make a difference.
This path we get attached to, the path that teaches us and gives us so much has taken a severe battering this holy year and if something is not done soon, it will deteriorate even further.
I would love to hear from anyone who feels like they would like to help with some sort of clean-up and firstly people who can speak other languages to help translate these issues and to post them on foreign forums to get the message spread further.

Always wanting to hear both sides of the story, I also welcome those who know they have littered or defecated and left remains or drawn graffiti to comment on their reasons why and if they would like to help or are they a new breed of pilgrim who never frequent forums like this?

Let us all remember....
The Camino de Santiago is a 'European route of cultural importance' but the disrespect some pilgrims are showing this sacred route beggars belief.

I don't want to start a revolution but I do want to hear your opinions, thoughts and ideas on what we can do as a collective.

Please spare a thought for those who follow. You are not the only person in the world and when you drop a piece of litter, use the toilet or draw graffiti won't you please THINK...the path will remain the way you leave it until someone comes along and cleans it up.

 

[CaminoGen]

You are not the only person in the world

This sentiment could be applied in regular life, not just the camino life.

 

[Mexicanpilgrim]

Some people behave like pigs, or even worst...

 

[robertt]

Good on you for speaking out, Greg. If they can pack it in, they can pack it out. No excuses.

I'm surprised how litterers and vandals are often fastidious about their own property and homes, which leads me to suspect that there's more to it than mere thoughtlessness.

Needed saying. Great post.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Thank you.
Well.. maybe. Your post riled me ... again!

This is one of HUGE pet peeves - piggy pilgrims!
I can't tell you how many times I felt so disgusted by human behavior it almost ruined my day.
I think there should be mandatory training before people walk the Camino...which should include basic manners -- I wish there were cameras and we could post photos of these gross people squatting and replay it to the world... maybe they'd be embarrassed?!

BURY YOUR EXCREMENT and CARRY OUT YOUR PAPER!
Don't poop within 100 feet of water or of the trail!

Every time you squat, ask yourself, "How would I feel if someone did this in MY front yard?"

Sad...

 

[skilsaw]

An important message.
Each picture worth a thousand words.
Good pictures of a gross subject.

I must confess, I tossed orange peels along the way.
They could have just as easily been carried to the next town.

Another camino no-no in my books is stealing the roll of toilet paper from an albergue, or bar.
As hospitalero in Granon, we went through 6 rolls per day in 3 toilets...

You can buy those little packages of Kleenex tissues. About 10 tissues to a package. I couldn't buy a single package so bought a bundle of 6. Kept two, and gave 4 away.

Best wishes for a sanitary camino.
David, Victoria, Canada

 

[sillydoll]

"How to Shit in the Woods" by environmentalist and conservtionist Kathleen Meyer should be standard reading for Camino pilgrims, along with the Guide books and pilgrims' stories. She called it a 'lost art' that needs to be re-taught.
Shit happens, so perhaps every pilgrim who is given a credencial should, at the same time, be given a packet of biodegradable poop bag kits like "Gotta-go" waste bags or "Go Anywhere" toilet kit so that they can pack and carry their waste until they reach a proper place to flush it away or dispose of it. If people walking their dogs can use doggie poop-bags why can't we?

http://www.cleanwaste.com/go-anywhere-toilet-kit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGfljmeRKNQ

 

[Caminando]

Good post, not in the least boring nor revolutionary.

Your justified complaint assumes that pilgrims are better than others, and will behave better - not so. Although the mess is disgusting, it shouldnt be surprising. I'd suggest too, that Southern Europeans are more likely to foul the environment than Western Europeans, based only on (unreliable) observation. The Camino Portugues, seen last November, was used as a dump by local builders, in many areas which were out of sight. There was some of the human filth you describe, but as numbers are less, so is the problem less acute.

My experience of the CF was some time ago, but I did not see the amound of filth you report. I'd hazard a guess that the hordes of teenage Spanish kids might be a major factor in the messmaking. Given their behaviour in albergues this wouldnt be a surprise. Not that nonSpanish teenagers are any better.

The grafitti is unacceptable. I've often felt in a minority of one here. I detest it, especially the inarticulate cretinous tagging stuff. It has nothing to say. If it did, I wouldnt mind it, in the right place, and not on a camino, among other places.

I'd guess that the situation was no different in earlier centuries, except that they had less to throw away, and what they did leave behind was quickly degradable.

Solutions are the difficult bit. Some have said that pilgrims should do this or should do that. Easily said, and not helpful. I don't think anything will improve till there's a change in attitudes in general society. People transfer their habits to the camino. I remember the UK in the 70s - people chucked rubbish everywhere. Then there was a change of awareness(I dont know why, tho' there was a campaign against rubbish throwing) and this stopped. I believe it was the same in France.

Picking up the rubbish by those who dont cause the problem is a temporary solution which may even prolong the problem; for it can be thought that because places are cleaned up, there's no problem.The cause of rubbish (attitudes) is not addressed, and the nonpolluters will collect rubbish for ever. It may even embitter the caring people who clean up after the vandals.

 

[gregdedman]

In my experiance during November and December it appeared that pilgrims followed suit, where one had dropped a bottle, so another thought i'll do the same, and then another and then another. That drain I pictured was a classic example. Its boggles my mind to imagine how someone would think because one person has dropped a bottle, then its ok, the pile just grows and grows.

The same goes for the graffiti.
Nothing escaped the tagging, and where one had tagged, so another has tagged.
I even saw an incredibly old tree, in the forest leaving Sarria, that had a sign on it pleading people not to mistreat it....but alas some cretin felt it necessary!

The now common act of souvenir hunting also riles me up. Money is spent on maintaining the concrete marker posts through Galicia but again, three years ago I dont remember seeing so many missing directional markers, battered posts and missing distance plagues. why on earth would someone do this but for a momento?!
This marker post sits on the 'quiet' Camino Muxia. This pilgrim didn't quite manage the ceramic shell tile, but appeared content with the distance plague.

Sure the hoards of Spanish tourist pilgrims could have taken this issue to new heights but we just don't know for sure....the one thing that I never saw, was someone in the act of toiletting littering or defacing.
With increased numbers of course comes more waste and the clear-up has to happen....180,000 bottles along the route can't remain there for the next 1,000 years right?, someone has to physically pick them up or the entire route will remain a dump for 400 generations.

The filth along the way in just three years since I last walked has reached an unacceptable level. A level that, on this very day is a disgrace, and tomorrow will be even worse.

I don't think anything will improve till there's a change in attitudes in general society.

I disagree somewhat simply because something has drastically changed in three years, from one Camino to the next. What could that be? If attitudes of pilgrims now, whatever nationality, have changed so much in three years, then it should only take 3 years to change back?....Doubtful, but its possible.

The sad fact of a clear up is that to clear the one single kilometer from marker posts 88-89 before Santiago would take a small team an entire day. The logistics are immense but someone has to start somewhere right? Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

All these things, and probably more, irritate me, but I remind myself that I can only control my own actions. Irritation at others is pointless. I was griping about graffiti at dinner along the Valcarce, and a Spaniard pointed out that it only takes one Spanish youth to paint thousands of tags. The Spanish are as irritated as we are, and equally at a loss for a solution.

More than half the pilgrims are Spanish. I would not be surprised if they accounted for 75% of the litter. I followed a Spanish school group from a vending machine after Sarria. Every wrapping ended up on the ground. I picked up a few, but did not chase the ones already moving with the wind. I can recall being on Boy Scout outings with my sons and watching a styrofoam cup turn into hundreds of little pieces of styrofoam. Scouts teach a lot of environmentalism, but often the lesson takes a while to sink in.

French trails are cleaner than Spanish, but I think it is mostly because crowds are smaller. I would not underestimate the subtle anger that builds from competing for resources along the overly popular Camino Frances. With that rising anger about the bed race, snorers, others' litter, etc. comes some acting out. Pilgrims who never litter might just give up and toss a water bottle out of sheer alienation. Trash containers are infrequent. Toilets are even rarer. Raging against people going to the bathroom is a fruitless battle. If you ever have had the bad meal hit bottom in the middle of a walking stage, you know what is inevitable. There are 6.5 billion humans going to the bathroom each day, so the disposal problem is far wider than trailside on the Camino. I am revolted every time a TV documentary talks about drinking the water from the Ganges!

I love this Forum because it allows a lot of people to share thoughts, some of which are just to get things off their chest. Occasionally, though, I think that someone has ruined the experience of the Camino by being too distraught by the irritations. Change what you can (I have carried and tried six different cleaning solutions for the 100km marker, and none has worked; I am taking two more on my next walk!), but accept what you cannot change.

And, of course, share thoughts on the Forum. It is beneficial to reader and writer alike.

 

[sillydoll]

The CSJ of South Africa is still handing out small green garbage bags to members and asking them to help pick up litter on the Camino. Unfortunately, our hopes of encouraging other countries to do the same was thwarted when American Pilgrims chair, Jim Eychaner mentioned the possibility of them doing the same to Ignacio Santos at the Pilgrim's Office. This was his report in 'La Concha' - the magazine of the American Hospitaleros.

"Mr. Santos and I agreed that litter is a problem on the Camino, and I mentioned that we were considering mailing small plastic trash bags with our pilgrim credentials to encourage Americans to pick up trash along the way. Mr. Santos was appalled. Spain has too many plastic bags, he said, which is a major environmental concern. So, no plastic trash bags!"

Rightly or wrongly, our group of pilgrims will be expected to pick up trash on the camino next year and all of them will be given 5 plastic bags to carry with them.

 

[gregdedman]

I remind myself that I can only control my own actions. Irritation at others is pointless.

Of course you can control the actions of others, if something ittitates you and you are bold enough to say something then maybe that person will pick up the piece of litter they just dropped and think twice next time, or maybe they will just tell you where to get off! The fact is that you tried.

The idea of accepting this as part and parcel of Camino life now and forever more is a little defeatist in my opinion. As caminando points out, the UK back in the 70's had a real problem with litter. If no one tried to change attitudes then the country in which I live would resemble a rubbish dump. There were initiatives here to educate children on the antisocial act of littering and councils spent millions on a clean up. Nowadays, if you drop a banana peel you are fined, if you do not clear up after a picnic you are fined and if you are caught urinating you are fined.
To litter here is a massive taboo and the countryside remains beautiful and the towns bearable. :?

Ill never agree that people cannot change. We all learn our habits, some more disgusting than others, but all bad habits can be unlearned over time.

If just one person reads this post before they go and thinks twice about dropping a tin can then the ball is rolling and the post worthwhile.

Honestly, I wouldn't say that my camino was ruined by my irritations, more so my emotions were fired to the point of taking action, the first step being to lay out what I saw along the way as i've said as a small ounce of balance to the countless positives of the Camino de Santiago.

 

[gregdedman]

Sil thats a fantastic idea.
The increase in popularity of the routes and the increasing number of groups mean that a lot more can be achieved in a single day than one pilgrim acting alone.

Hopefully when a group of 10 pilgrims is seen to be collecting litter, other people may follow suit or at the least, think twice about dropping something knowing that good fellows are having to pick it up.

I would be happy to put together a small information sheet about toileting and disposal if you thought it would be useful?

 

[sillydoll]

We won't be taking poop-scoops so I don't think much poo is going to be collected! But we will certainly collect papers, bottles, packets, wrappers etc that we see on the paths.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I would have to say that the establishment reaction to plastic bags sounds more like a reaction to someone else having a good idea! Trash bins are labeled for use exclusively for trash IN PLASTIC BAGS (emphasis added). It would be nice to re-use the plastic bags discarded along the Camino to collect Camino trash, but they are in disrepair, soiled, etc. I love the SA idea, but everyone can collect trash in the plastic bags they get with every mercado purchase, and deposit it in the next, probably private, trash bin.

As to those who discard banana peels in Great Britain, is there no caning there? Look to Singapore, part of the British empire from 1819 to 1963, as your role model. Caning for littering. Banishment for criticizing the government. It is the cleanest city in the world. That is the upside. I will leave the downside open for contemplation.

People do change, but the Camino crowd is sufficiently mature, that I expect only slow change. I don't expect any change during the month I take to walk it. I pretty much have to accept it as it is! I certainly don't think that angrily confronting everyone who offends me will make it a better place. I could be wrong.

 

[gregdedman]

Well of course, angry confrontation will only lead to angry defence.
If someone is acting in an antisocial way I will always think about saying something, not only for myself but for everyone elses benefit too, this goes for not only the Camino, but mountains I climb, streets I walk down, and the neighbours I live next to.

People who act antisocial, or indeed break the law require a word in their ear and fear of approaching people acting up is something we should all do if we feel the need.
Angrly, this will lead to trouble.

 

[sillydoll]

Trash and littering isn't just a problem on the Camino. This report last month on the Jesus Trail:

On November 9, 2009, international volunteers and hundreds of local school children picked up trash along the Jesus Trail as part of “Clean Up the World Day,” sponsored by the Jewish National Fund.
Middle School students from public schools in Nazareth, Cana and Mash’had thronged the streets of their towns armed with trash bags and gloves to clean up their neighborhoods. International volunteers from the US, Russia, South Africa and Germany participated as well, forging friendships with the enthusiastic and curious children.
Trash is a major environmental problem in Israel, where over 90% of the country’s waste is buried in landfills, which are reaching maximum capacity. Only about 5% of Israel’s waste reaches recycling facilities.
The Jesus Trail and Jewish National Fund plan to make this trash pickup activity a monthly ritual, hoping to instill in these youth a sense of pride in caring for the environment and making the Jesus Trail a clean and pleasant place for locals and international visitors alike.

 

[pat.holland]

There are a lot of fundamental values and hard realities bouncing off each other here. Some people will litter and others will follow. But are there litter bins anywhere to leave rubbish along the way? Are people educated not to litter?

More fundamentally (sic!) is the toilet issue. People have to go somewhere. Nature will call, sometimes when least wanted. Which of us has not be visited by a desperate need along the way sometime, somewhere. The numbers of people and the degradeablity or not, of what they use, will determine how bad it is.

One of the bottom lines (sic) is that there are no toilets along the way except maybe in the villages. there is an opportunity here for some community development. If, in each village, some one was encouraged to provide a toilet for pilgrims as they walk along, in return for a modest charge, this would both relieve (sic) the walkers and give someone a modest income. After all, there's 'brass in muck'!

What we dont want however, I add in a hurry, is a local government scheme to build toilets along the route. I can imagine a succession of regularly spaced bunker-like architect designed loos, expensive to put up, highly expensive to maintain, monotonous to look at (like those concrete pillars all along the way on the middle of the Camino) and probably getting neglected and vandalised in time.

 

[newfydog]

What kind of a fool would be opposed to plastic LITTER BAGS? Plastic recycles quite well, and someone who picks up litter might just actually do that.

Given the option of stashing their TP in some orgo cloth bag rather than a zip-lock plastic bag, many would leave it by the trail.

 

[grayland]

My wife (Ellie) picking up litter with a South African litter bag just past PortoMarin in the forest. A real mess.

We have been impressed with the proactive efforts of the South Africans to combat the problems.
We joined the SA Confraternity to support their efforts on behalf of the Camino. Thanks to Sil and the rest of South Africans.

But....I believe we are preaching to the choir here as most people on the this forum (as well as most others) are not the offenders in either the litter or graffiti problems. They are also not the ones who set alarms and turn on the lights....or steal the toilet paper.
I don't really know how it would be possible to communicate with the culprits.

edit: Having a hard time sizing the picture..but I will get it done.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

If I had a rocket launcher....
But realistically, if you have a plastic shopping bag at the start of the day, and you just pick up trash along the path as you see it, just enough to fill one bag, and you put that bag in a trash bin, well. You´re DOING something about the problem. Enough people do this simple thing (which also gives you a good morning warm-up stretch), and the problem would be on its way to solution. People will see you doing this. Some will smirk at you. Others will be careful not to drop their junk on the ground when you are around. Some might actually start picking up trash,
too.

Counting the plastic bottles and cans and doing the math on how bad it´s going to be in 2020 and getting steamed at the idiots who do these things will only make you peevish and ill. Getting mad and assigning blame does not help anything.

It´s very rare to actually see someone throwing trash on the ground. When this happens, I ALWAYS pick up the trash (unless it´s doodoo) and I run up to the person who threw it and I say "Hey! You dropped this trash on the ground! I know you didn´t mean to, right?" And I hand it to him. (This has only happened twice, but it was very gratifying. Until one of them just dropped the trash on the ground again. So I reported him to the guardia for littering.)

I am not usually such a weenie, but this is my pet peeve. You go to all the trouble to come to Spain to walk this extraordinary path, and then you literally shit on it.

Anyway, the best thing we can do is just pick stuff up when we see it. Simple, effective, and practically free.

 

[dalech]

What an interesting thread about such an unfortunate topic. I, like all of you, have experienced the litter and waste left behind by fellow pilgrims on the camino. I walked the Frances in winter last year when the trail is often deserted and pilgrims are few and far between. You wouldn't think there was enough of us to even make a mess. But still there was often litter and other unpleasant surprises (ie: poo!) on the trail itself. I was staggered at the lack of consideration for both the environment and other pilgrims. I do think it's getting worse though. When I first walked the camino in 2003 I really didn't notice the litter so much. Last year

This is not just a problem on our camino though. When I walked the Inca Trail in Peru I was constantly seeing litter on the trail. You can't walk the Inca Trail without a guide and because of the high altitudes we decided to hire porters to carry our luggage. I felt guilty about this and would often give the porters sweets (pathetic compensation, I know) when they jogged past us...only to find the wrappers on the ground a little further up the trail. I guess if we all do our bit and pick up a little rubblish as we go, it will make a difference. Shame we can't just stop people doing it in the first place though.

 

[sillydoll]

The worst litter I've seen in Spain is in the bars.
Grown men and women throwing papers, crusts of bread, cigarettes, ash etc onto the floor. By the end of the day I've seen the owner sprinkle sawdust on the floor to sweep away the spilled alcohol, ash and cigarette butts. When I asked one fellow why people did this he just shrugged. If people are comfortable littering inside someone's cafe-bar, its only natural that he would also litter outdoors.

PS: Just a thought, if any other organisation or individual would like to produce litter bags, we would be happy to share the design with you. They have this message printed on them in 9 languages:

"Dear Pilgrim,
Please help to spring clean the camino. At some point on your journey, fill this bag with litter you find along the way and put it into the efficient Spanish garfbage system. Thank you and Buen Camino!"

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I asked asked about litter in bars in Spain. The same Spaniard who talked about a handful of taggers desecrating the entire country, answered this way. Bar owners prefer one sweep of the broom across the floor at the end of the day to picking up counter-top trash all day long. I agree that it may breed contempt for neatness, but the answer seems to indicate a cultural difference, not hostility toward the environment.

 

[MermaidLilli]

I do suspect that in years past, when there was no such thing as indoor plumbing and toilets were not invented and pilgrims walked by the tens of thousands, that poo was found all along the route. Can you imagine how nasty that must have been back then?
I don't know what the answer is but I would like to see the Spanish be involved in keeping the routes clean by creating an anti-litter campaign. It is their country and they must create these rules and enforce them somehow. Now the question is how to motivate them.
In the states I remember how litter was very common. Between anti-littering advertisements and fines for those that got caught, people changed. Consciousness changed. We care more now about our immediate environment. I have not seen anyone throw anything (other than cigarette butts) out the window in years.
Yes, we in this forum are conscientious people and would be caring pilgrims but how can all others be motivated to be so? One answer can be the hospitaleros doing a daily educational sermon about the importance of keeping the caminos clean. They could offer these bags we speak of and ask they be given to some designated places where they can be emptied and reused. I do hate the idea of more plastic but surely they can be reused.
Peace & Love
Lillian

 

[ksam]

It's everywhere! We've gone for really remote hikes in the NJ Pine Barrens..and come out with bags and bags of beer, water and soda bottles and cans...to say nothing of other items found along the trails. I agree w/Rebekah...just gotta take it one litter bag at a time. It takes time, but like grains of sand in an hour glass...eventually they are all moved. You have to have faith in little steps.

Now that's for litter...human waste...your worse than a pig...pigs and animals don't mess in their own environs...unless absolutely necessary!

 

[grayland]

I think that it is pretty certain that most of the worse offenders will be staying in albergues for the most part.
Wouldn't it be good if it were made a requirement of checking in at every albergue to sign an "pledge" or "acknowledgment" concerning litter, graffiti, and proper toilet/toilet paper procedures. It would not have to be long...just a pledge not to do it and to protect the Camino.
Maybe after signing this every night it may sink into the majority of the walkers (I hesitate to call the offenders Pilgrims).
Maybe someone with enough connections can some day get behind this.

The albergues are the only direct contact source I know. I don't think signs hanging on the wall would have any effect.....however if we could make some posters with the pictures that gregdedman started this thread with and hang that in all the albergues along the way..it may have the desired effect. :wink:

 

[CaroleH]

Good idea Grayland. Albergues maybe best place to instruct about litter and especially about how to manage ''calls of nature", which are inevitably going to happen . We tend to beat around the bush and not talk about this..... and we don't all know the correct procedures. Long term experienced walkers may know, but so many camino walkers are inexperienced and really have no idea what to do. Truly!

Maybe a set of instructions given out, and something signed to prove we have read it .... when and wherever we obtain the credencial. Who can organise this??

 

[elzi]

OK, I'm going to be a bit controversial here but there are so many different people on the camino that all kinds of opinions exist.

Firstly I'm with you on the litter I have no idea why people drop litter, some people are idiots but they do it everywhere not just on the camino. I would be happy to pick some up on the way and have done often enough. Don't just moan about it and photograph it walk over there pick it up and carry it to the next bin.

Secondly the graffiti - I LOVED the graffiti on the camino. Yes I did seriously. Honestly it makes the journey special for me, I love reading all the little messages, I've got some photos or some stunning art work or even little funny saying or sketches. I even like the tagging, it's nice following people - oh look Carlos has been here again etc... I think the camino would be a poorer place without the graffiti - i'm sorry you don't feel that way but people have been leaving graffiti for much longer than the camino existed and it seems to be a natural human urge to leave a mark of oneself behind. I also like how it changes en-route, some of the writing on the back of the toilet door in the albergue in Fisterra was the most profound philosophy I've ever read, truly, my life would've been different if it wasn't there!!

Now to the most unpleasant the toilet roll. Again controversially.. on a purely personal note the toilet roll is kinda useful. Let's face it people are going to go to the toilet en-route. The only good thing about the unpleasant and unsightly toilet roll is that at least it lets you know WHERE they've done it! As someone who not only likes to sit by the trail but occasionally wild camp by it I would say the toilet roll piles are an excellent indicator of where NOT to go. It would be a whole lot harder to know where to plonk myself down if the toilet roll patches were missing. I agree they're horrible but if the alternative is sniffing the ground and checking whether I've sat down or slept on something damp and smelly then I'm not that keen on that either. Of course in an ideal world we'd all be burying it or taking it away but this is not an ideal world...

Also before you vilify me, i've always cleaned up after myself, often cleaning the camping spot of other people's litter as well but I'm not going to promise I haven't graffitied!

 

[sillydoll]

About 30 different organisations fall under the umbrella of the Spanish Federation of Camino Associations. All of their members are volunteers and if you subscribe to any of their newsletters you will see that the problem of litter, collecting litter, cleaning up after pilgrims, is a never ending function of the volunteers on the camino.
Maybe the different confraternities in the world need to encourage their members to go on specific 'camino-clean' up walks! How cool would that be!

 

[Caminando]

Make them sign a pledge every day- make them hear a lecture - give 'em mandatory training - put CCTV all over the caminos to film them taking a leak - post pics of those guilty - get the hospitaleros to harangue them in tongues each morning as the pilgs line up, heads bowed - send out commando trash parties with green plastic bags to clean up- don't let 'em take a dump till in an approved pilg toilet - fine them... and so on :shock: :roll: .

You couldn't make it up.

 

[ksam]

Good one Cominando! Esp. the speaking in tongues! I don't think there eve will be a single answer...Just each of us taking the time to do our own best...and as such set an example. If we each do so...like drops of water in a bucket or grains of sand in an hour glass...it will change...you just have to have faith in the tiny small things to effect change.

Meanwhile..as the pilgs hold their heads bowed, with Hospitalero's speaking over them in tongues...wave a long thin switch...with the threat of a canning if compliance is not met! :roll: Or worse...you don't bring in a bag of trash from along the way...no bed at the next stop!

Karin

 

[grayland]

.......SNIP......Secondly the graffiti - I LOVED the graffiti on the Camino. Yes I did seriously......... but I'm not going to promise I haven't graffitied!.........snip...

Wow! I don't think I have ever heard anyone who "enjoyed" graffiti. ( except taggers and those who do the graffiti)
Some of the "art" under the underpasses are really good and can be appreciated.
However, the persistent tagging of every monument, KM marker, way marker is a real bummer to me. I try to ignore it but it does take away from the spirit of the Camino for me.
I don't think I am alone in this. :wink:

 

[Deleted member 3000]

There is something about tagging that is just too needy -- everyone must know that "I have been here."

 

[Sagalouts]

I agree graffiti is horrible,there is someone going round the Camino painting yellow arrows all over the place-roads walls trees,people's houses-nowhere is safe!!
Ian

 

[gregdedman]

Don't just moan about it and photograph it walk over there pick it up and carry it to the next bin.

Thank you for the advice elzi, I did do just that, however I also wanted to inform people about the levels of abuse the Camino has been subject to during this busy Holy year.
The tonnage of 'waste' along the path is incredible, I'd suggest taking more than a few rubbish bags next time you go.

Interesting you say the graffiti is a good thing along the Camino, but on people's private property including the walls of their home? Tables turned, is your opinion different?

Im glad this post is getting a fair crack, its the reason I posted it. To get a collective opinion on what I saw on my camino and get some ideas flying around for ways to begin rectifying, restoring and preventing for those walking behind us.

on a purely personal note the toilet roll is kinda useful.

.

Surely that means whatever excrement free areas will soon also be tarnished. Spain is a westernised world, with plentiful facilities to prevent you from just going to the toilet wherever you need. I walked for 43 days, good tummy and bad and did not need to defecate on the path once....there are ways and means to do this in sociably acceptable way.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The statistics are out for 2010. Over 69% of the 272,313 pilgrims were Spanish. We guests should not feel guilty about more than 30% of the litter, and probably much less. We might find it difficult to impose an "outside" solution on the litter problem. I cannot imagine that the Spanish are unaware of it. My personal solution will continue to be picking up after myself and a few others, and ignoring the rest.

 

[sillydoll]

Stats are elusive! Especially when the great majority of Spaniards only walk the last 100km. Greg's photos were taken all along the Camino not just the last 100km so we can't sit back and blame it all the crap on the locals!

 

[SabsP]

I hope I will act like I act here in my own country or when I'm on " a normal " holiday. Recycling is not that spectacular : just using my common sense. Avoiding plastic bottles as much as necessary, always taking a reusable plastic bag with me. Biodegradable liquid soap. Speaking my mind when people tend to make a mess : although this got me into kind of a wordfight a while ago here in Belgium when I pointed out to a lady that I wasn't amused when she was emptying her car ashtray in a local park.
I strongly believe in giving a good example.
BTW I love graffiti but not the "Killroy was here" type but give me a Banksy graffiti anytime...
http://www.banksy.co.uk/outdoors/outuk/horizontal_1.htm

 

[sillydoll]

Leaving Logroño

 

[Anniesantiago]

There is graffiti that is "artful" and there is graffiti that is destructive.
When the graffiti is on YOUR house or YOUR garage or YOUR car or YOUR grandmother's gravestone, you might feel differently.

And the destruction.. well.. it just makes me sad that people have become so self-centered.
That's an entire sermon though, and I hate sermons...

 

[grayland]

There is graffiti that is "artful" and there is graffiti that is destructive.
When the graffiti is on YOUR house or YOUR garage or YOUR car or YOUR grandmother's gravestone, you might feel differently.

And the destruction.. well.. it just makes me sad that people have become so self-centered.
That's an entire sermon though, and I hate sermons...

Well said Annie. Tagging every marker, statue, wall, grave, is not remotely art.

My big surprise here is those who defend it. :shock: I guess I thought that most people here would be offended by the increasing problem and thought that the taggers, etc. were young sophomoric
people who just did not have any real connection to the meaning of the Camino.

There was a dramatic increase in the mess and graffiti from 2009 and 2010.

 

[annakappa]

This posting is getting more interesting by the day! Gregedman wrote after his return from the Francés in November. By that time of the year, obviously the situation had most certainly become worse, than say walking in April/May, when, hopefully the local muni's have had time to clean up. I have walked in areas, especially where there have been "picnic" areas, where the rubbish/garbage containers were overflowing and waste was everywhere. I really wonder how often they are cleaned up. Day, week, month - or at the end of the season? Frankly, if you have carried your full plastic bottle for several hours and then, once empty, there is no reason why you can't carry it on to the next village and deposit it correctly. Personally, I have never seen anyone deliberately dropping waste, but yes, there is certainly a lot around. Are the Spanish Pilgrims to be blamed? I would guess that the youth groups probably are one of the prime culprits (but that is also because they are in the majority). Here, it's up to the leaders to give them a pep talk before they leave and, why not, have them sign a pledge.
I love the idea of making a pledge. Don't know how many albergues would be in agreement to have pledge sheets ready for the Pilgrims to sign in on arrival. In the high season, the hospitaleros are often under stress and have to process one load of people who only want to get their bed, plus dealing with the important bed bug problem. Signing a pledge when receiving the Credential at the beginning, as suggested by Carole is a reasonalble possibility. Printing in the Credential a "set of rules" concerning behavour could be another possibility. I think that the Confraternities could definately help there when issuing their own Credentials.
Graffiti: Unless it's a kind of "art work" as the case in the tunnel under the road outside Logroño, which presumabely has been done to brighten up the concrete, other graffiti is just a question of bad education. We followed and met a Spanish couple in 2009. His mother died after they had just begun their Camino. After the funeral, they returned and continued, but he was obsessed by writing "Mami, 11/9/2009" on just about everything. (I would say, about 3 times for each km walked). That's one load of "Mami's! I wonder if they had been cleaned, because I didn't see any when I walked from Astorga to Rabanal to take up duties there this September.
The defacation problem is something different! It's disgusting to see but often it's not something that you plan to do - it could unfortunately happen that you have to "go" when there is no village in sight. Bury the offensive sample and take your kleenex/toilet paper with you, I think is the only advice and solution.
The S. African green plastic bag initative is another good way of calling attention to the problem. I will certainly look for them this year if we walk again. All in all, each and everyone of us has to be very much aware of our actions. For the great majority, I find that Pilgrims are a very well mannered group of people and my 18 days as hospitalero only confirms this impression. Anne

 

[richeyboy]

Well done gregdeman for exposing, at last, the elephant in the room. And now that we can talk about it we can also start to deal with the issues raised because unless we do the situation can only get worse. Setting a personal example always helps. So we must all carry our own rubbish with us, bury our excrement and no defacement (drawings, piles of stones etc)and then we may not even need to start that nasty little english speaking habit of blaming foreigners.

 

[gregdedman]

Hi everyone,

Firstly im sorry for 'bumping' this post to the top again but I just wanted to do so before the pilgrim numbers along all Camino routes begin to rise into the warmer months.

I am hoping that more people get to read this post and maybe think twice when they are walking.
More opinions are of course always fun to hear

Regards

 

[dewzy]

Nice to feel like we weren't the only ones who felt strongly about this issue!!!! Very sad actually. :cry:

 

[Soliwo]

What I remember from Spain is that there usually is very little roadside litter. Asturias is very clean (but might be an exception has it has the strictest environmental laws), the semi-dessert of Bardenas Reales, the fields around Segovia and the woods of El Escorial as well. This news simply disgusts me and seriously impedes on my enthusiasm to walk the Camino. Yes, I might even choose another route because of this. Not because I expect a completely pristine landscape, but I do not care much for the smell of human excrements where I eat.

I just want to say one more thing. For many of us it is quite the same at home. Carrying your own waste should not just be the rule when you are a guest, but also when you are at home. Never throw something on the streets. Never drop stuff in the woods. Never throw stuff out of your windows while driving on the free way, even if you think your landscape is ruined already. Not here not anywhere. It is not just the Camino that should be sacred.

 

[Abbeydore]

Crickey.........I have not done a Camino yet & I have this too look forward too.......Oh dear!

Well first on this forum:
1. Add to everyones packing list....lacky bags to pick up rubbish.
2. Ask the Spanish how we can help!
3. Ask Ivar to put a header, take a bag, pick up some rubbish everyday!(& everyones 'blog')
4. Ask Google to have a header too........
5. Collect/deposit a bag for every stamp!
6. Print across the credential some words about rubbish.
7. We need to do our bit......have we done it today!

Sorry but this subject is more important than being under the carpet, if our toilet are blocked, we are not happy, sounds like we need to help to un-block our next Camino :arrow:

 

[Soliwo]

I will definitely bring plastic bags with me and help out, but I won't pick up anyone's shit. I mean the literal shit. :wink:

 

[GunnarW]

I think many peregrinos don't know that the big containers you see in the villages/cities are waste containers FREE TO USE. You see at least one in small villages.
That's the system in Spain. Everyone needs to throw their garbage in containers. Easy!!!!
The green ones are general purpose. Just open the cover and throw.
The yellow containers (plastic bottles, tins,..) have a hole on top, you don't have to open the cover. If there is no yellow container, throw your bottle in the green one. Better then to throw it on the camino.
In big cities, there are more specific containers (brown ones, I don't remember) to sort your garbage.

 

[Abbeydore]

I think many peregrinos don't know that the big containers you see in the villages/cities are waste containers FREE TO USE. You see at least one in small villages.
That's the system in Spain. Everyone needs to throw their garbage in containers. Easy!!!!
The green ones are general purpose. Just open the cover and throw.
The yellow containers (plastic bottles, tins,..) have a hole on top, you don't have to open the cover. If there is no yellow container, throw your bottle in the green one. Better then to throw it on the camino.
In big cities, there are more specific containers (brown ones, I don't remember) to sort your garbage.

That's it:
Green Bin General Purpose
Yellow Bin Plastic Bottles, Tins

If full close bag & leave beside bin, hopefully it's collected before dogs get there!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

No one misses the frequent disposal bins. Litterers do it consciously. It is a nice thought to pick up after others, but I do not have the extra energy to bend down constantly, and filling a trash bag while using trekking poles is quite difficult. I pick up after myself, and will grab the occasional water bottle someone else has dropped, but it is too much a losing battle to clean up after everyone. As you say, there are garbage cans everywhere, so the absence of disposal is not an explanation for the litter. We probably need to look to human nature and education.

Not to attack Spain, but France is much cleaner along the roads and paths than Spain. Except on busy roads, the litter is mostly tissues from drippy noses. It is an eyesore, but biodegradable.

 

[Soliwo]

As a general rule, usually roads get cleaner as you travel northwards in Europe. Though I though Spain was pretty clean compared to for example Italy. And Dutch people go further downhill each year. Germany might be the cleanliest on the mainland. And France looses points because of its public toilets. But truly, Asturias is a really nice and clean, but of course, most people do not follow me to Cudillero. There were no other (foreign) tourists but me in early June.

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

The second photo was taken in December 2010. How did I know to take the 2005 photo while the monument was new? Nowt more certain than graffiti would appear.

In 19th century Stoke on Trent, England, an Anglican vicar said in a sermon that the working class should not be taught to write because they would write nasty things on walls. Sadly, not just the working class are responsible for this.





I would like to think that none of this graffiti came from pilgrims, but I expect some of it did.

 

[HDrider]

Comparing my attached photo of the same marker taken in May 2009, it would appear that graffiti either, fairly quickly fades away, or is removed on a regular basis. Either way it seems to be replaced fairly quickly as well!

 

[Abbeydore]

OK, now the positives, can we think about plastic bags: the supply, the carrying of; the picking-up of rubbish & disposing of :!:

The graffiti :?: , having a cloth with a solvent on it........... :?:
sounds a bit dodgy for a pilgrim to get involved with.......

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I was contemplating this problem lately, and I think maybe Advent is a good time to DO something.

Pilgrims who are walking NOW (November-Dec. 2011) please let me know what stretches of Camino are particularly littered or nasty, and I will figure out something to alleviate the problem... maybe a trash-bag camino?

reb.

 

[lynnejohn]

I think it's a wonderful idea, but I don't think folks who wouldn't pick up trash that they walk by at home on a regular basis are going to pick it up on the camino. It's "not their trash".

Call me cynical.

lynne

 

[Abbeydore]

I think it's a wonderful idea, but I don't think folks who wouldn't pick up trash that they walk by at home on a regular basis are going to pick it up on the camino. It's "not their trash".

Call me cynical.

lynne

NEVER,

I think it's an infectious action, 'you' will not want to be left out.............once others a doing it!
I'm taking a bag for every day in April for 2 weeks

 

[Rebekah Scott]

It´s not a matter of whose it is, whodunnit, or why. It is there, it is offensive, and it needs to be removed. It is that simple, Just talking and writing and photographing and complaining about it is not dealing with the problem.

Let´s deal with the problem.

 

[sillydoll]

On both of my amaWalkers Camino walks I have given the group members a few of the South African litter bags and asked them to choose one day to pick up litter. Some used the bags for their own litter, some used them to carry damp clothing! Most spent part of a day picking up litter.
Maybe every pilgrim should be given a small Camino litter bag before they start walking?

 

[Abbeydore]

Maybe every pilgrim should be given a small Camino litter bag before they start walking?

Totally agree, given with every credential & during the Camino with stamps.....

 

[renegadepilgrim]

If you think the CF is bad, try walking down the street in Bangalore, India where you have to dodge human feces, cow pies, and garbage all at the same time!

In parts of Oregon we have inmate crews do litter patrol. I wonder if Spain does too....

 

[sillydoll]

The Camino associations in the different regions go out on regular litter patrols but they must feel like they are fighting a losing battle.






This is a photograph from the newsletter of the Camino association in Leon:

 

[Rebekah Scott]

cool. that was taken outside the albergue in Sahagun, so it figures these good people, being Leonese, cleaned up the trail from there to at least mansilla (one hopes.) I am thinking of starting in Burgos and just walking home from there with the South African trash bags I still have on hand. Got a couple of truly horrific spots around Carrion de los Condes to deal with. Anyone who wants to join in just say the word, I will buy dinners and maybe haul mochilas.

Reb.

 

[tyrrek]

When are you planning, Reb?

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Soon as the weather clears up, sometime in the next two weeks I hope!

 

[tyrrek]

I'd be up for it. I need a walk. Just let me know if/when there are plans. My ulterior motive is seeing a bit of the Camino in winter. I'd only have about a week to walk, because I have to squeeze in a trip to my parents before Christmas. Otherwise they'll visit me :shock: and be shocked by the horrific state of my house.

Buen Camino!

 

[Kialoa3]

I must confess that I did not experience the piles of trash and the used toilet rolls during our Camino last Dec-Jan. Sure there was some occasional litter, but nothing that screamed abuse (and I like things a bit tidy). The graffiti was bad, but unfortunately you see that everywhere. Maybe I was too focused on simply enjoying the walk, and missed it. I have a habit of doing that.

 

[tyrrek]

Hi Kialoa

Reb and I started litter-picking today and I was horrified by what I saw. I´m sure I never saw anything as bad as one of the picnic areas we visited today when I was walking in spring. A huge pile of trash by a picnic bench. Nobody would want to eat there. It´s better now!

Keith

 

[Abbeydore]

Hi Kialoa

Reb and I started litter-picking today and I was horrified by what I saw. I´m sure I never saw anything as bad as one of the picnic areas we visited today when I was walking in spring. A huge pile of trash by a picnic bench. Nobody would want to eat there. It´s better now!

Keith

Well Done Keith, gosh you were only talking about it the other day.......& now you are on the job :!:

David

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Keith´s now gone down with a cold and fever, but I am proud to say we have litter-picked the Camino Frances in Palencia from Itero de la Vega to San Nicolas del Real Camino. We probably missed a few things, and we did not handle anything biohazardous, but we are proud of ourselves. Many thanks to the South African Confraternity of St. James for the many green trash bags, and to an anonymous donor who paid for our lunches on the road.

That only leaves Navarra, La Rioja, Burgos, Leon, and Galicia! Who´s next?

 

[Arn]

I applaud Reb, Sil, Keith for taking action, gregdedman for starting this thread, and the many Forum members that have shared your views and solutions.

I've taught wilderness education for over thirty years and have watched the solutions change with the times, some very basic (pick up and remove your trash), to the drastic (this popular camping ground is no longer safe for camping...it's closed). The reasons some people are trashy are legion though there's no solid proof that any one factor stands out...except: poor parental direction as a youth. That is, there being no consequences for bad behavior.

Our home was seldom a mess...at least in the common areas, personal space was just that... personal. If my daughter wanted to sleep above a two months old disintegrating leftover pizza, well! But, the rule in the kitchen was: when you have friends over anything in the fridge is fair game...just clean up after yourself. No dishes in the sink!

I came home one evening, rather late and the kitchen sink was full; my son and his friends were long gone. I loaded the items into a heavy trash bag and deposited it in his bed...under the covers. I know he came home at exactly 03:06.

Things were good for several months, then one night...

I again put the offending items in the trash bag, though this time I dumped the contents into his bed. He arrived at 04:23. He never left the house a mess again. Not just the kitchen, but the entire house...his bedroom included.

My point being, if you constantly pick up after someone, or many others...and, there's no consequence to their actions...you are hired for life, while they just carry on, rather than carry out.

The larger point is how are we personally going to deal with this situation:

1. Some of us will continue to write about the problem.
2. Some will tisk, tisk.
3. Some will demand new laws...where just enforcing the current laws would probably work.
4. Some will take charge, organize and make a difference by picking up the trash and properly disposing of it. See you again next week, month, year...same time, same problem.

I can honestly say that having taken part in many clean up actions the one article no one wants to pick up is crap. That said, in the twenty three years I spent in the Marine Corps, I can attest to an evolutionary approach to trash removal from my earliest years to recent times. In earlier times we would bury the C-rat cans and cartons, and dig cat holes to relieve ourselves. Today, we carry out ALL our personal and unit trash; yes, including crap. We now spread a plastic sheet on the ground, tie the ends and put into a Ziploc bag for proper disposal. Does this work every time and do all Marines always follow the rule? I'm not that naive; but I did have a solution that I shared with my staff. If they, or I saw someone take a dump and leave it behind...the first time we sent them back to pick it up. The second time, we put it into a proper Ziploc and deposited it into their sleeping bag and the third time...well, ya know, don't you! We seldom got to step three.

In case you're curious on how to properly dispose of feces should you need to make an emergency deposit, here's a good article:

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/ ... defecation

Do your part to the best of your abilities and resources. Doesn't do any good to get pissed off, though it is better than getting pissed on!

Buen "a trail flower by any other name...will never smell sweet"* Camino

Arn

* with apologies to Shakespeare "Romeo and Juliet"

 

[tyrrek]

Arn, wisdom from experience is always the best!

Reb and I were limited in what we could do due to our resources. There were loads of 'toilet paper' locations that we weren't really able to tackle, but only one that really made me wretch. (That was on an otherwise pretty clean stretch, surprisingly!)

I can understand the argument that there's no point clearing up because it will all come back again soon. I've adopted that argument myself when it comes to cleaning my house and my dishes. Nobody comes to dinner at my house any more though! :lol:

Seriously, though. If everyone reading this forum who is planning a Camino next year dedicated 5km over their whole Camino to clearing litter when they see somewhere where it might be becoming a problem that would make a huge difference. Not only would it stop areas reaching the 'critical mass' whereby they are no longer, say, a picnic area but rather a dumping ground, but it would be a visible reminder to other pilgrims that it's not 'the authorities' that are clearing up their mess but their fellow pilgrims.

Enough said, apart from thanks to Reb, Paddy and their menagerie for the wonderful hospitality, generosity and good fun in doing what needs done. (Or doing what needs 'to be' done, in Reb's unholy North American language. :wink: )

 

[lynnejohn]

Thanks to you, Keith, Reb and the support team at the Peacable for doing this work. I am humbled by your dedication to this basest of all endeavors.

You have encouraged me to redouble our efforts on our next camino. Please know that your initial work in this important work will, I'm sure, multiply with the rest of us, and let that be your reward and peace.

Good work, eh? (from another unholy North American vernacular).

lynne

 

[fraluchi]

I applaud Reb, Sil, Keith for taking action, gregdedman for starting this thread, and the many Forum members that have shared your views and solutions..........
My point being, if you constantly pick up after someone, or many others...and, there's no consequence to their actions...you are hired for life, while they just carry on, rather than carry out.

I entirely endorse both statements!
A solution would be to educate those "who just carry on, rather than carry out", but this challenge is well beyond this forum.
Unless concerted action is undertaken by municipalities, associations and other interest groups, to organize and finance both prevention and maintenance, the Camino risks to be an increasing stream of litter.
Active people on the spot are needed.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The trash is a pilgrim problem. The defecation is a junta problem. When 100,000 people get a permit to gather in the U.S., sanitary provisions are made by the government or the group. Spain knows it is getting a mob of pilgrims each year, yet it does nothing to provide toilet accommodations for them. The burden is on the bars and the restaurants, and it is an unfair burden. The 175,000 pilgrims will spend 30 Euro daily for 33 days. That is about $175m Euro with a lot of VAT and local levies included. Would it kill them to put up and service portable toilets with some of the proceeds?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

There are many rare photos from the Camino, but I would like to offer this nearly-clean 100km marker photo. As with many photographs, timing is everything! The cleaning crew must have been there the day before.

 

[julianeb]

Thank you very much for starting this thread. I only found out about the Camino over the last year, and haven't decided if I am ever going to attempt to walk it. This thread alone makes me think "No thanks." LIttering? On a pilgrim trail? Tagging all over markers? Really? and human excrement left out in the open...It's too depressing to even contemplate. What do people undertake this huge physical effort for, only to despoil the environment? Is it really that easy to do this huge walk, that people are so careless that they are callous to what they are doing? I mean, just the physical EFFORT of getting there and starting would seem to weed out the non-committed...

I really appreciate everyone sharing their recent experience on the Frances Camino. It's the route I would choose IF and at this point, it's a LARGE IF, I do the walk some day. I wish I could travel back in time to where the road was not so well-known. I supposed the movie "The Way" will bring even more people to this Camino....

 

[tyrrek]

Hi Julianeb

I hope this thread hasn't put you off too much! I walked the Camino this spring, and litter wasn't too much of a problem. Going back to help clear up a section last week it was worse than I remembered, but maybe that's because I was actively looking for trash!

Hundreds of thousands of people walk/cycle parts of the route each year, and not all will have travelled a long way to do so, or planned a long time in advance. With the population of a major city and a wide variety of motivations for being there, the Camino is bound to attract its share of inconsiderate people (and those suffering the effects of 'foreign' food!). However, bear in mind that the Camino from SJPP is 500 miles long and crosses a large European country. For every fouled up place there are miles of beauty.

Brouse through the other threads on this forum and see the many, many positive experiences of this pilgrimage. The reason this thread is so popular is probably because the Camino means so much to people who have experienced it. The behaviour of a minority is frustrating and opinions on the causes and solutions are obviously varied.

Buen potential Camino!

Keith

 

[johnnyman]

The Camino Frances is an amazing and wonderful experience. I walked from Pamplona to Santiago last summer, and I still think about it every day. And I plan to go back in 2013.
Yes, there was a little litter and other disgusting-ness, but certainly not enough to spoil it ...

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Even paradise has its faults. There are no "pristine" trails in the world, at least not any that people and animals use. The camino is on Earth, and it is used by humans. So of course it´s not going to be perfect, or anything close to it.

The camino and many of its facilities and users are pretty grubby sometimes. That is a fact.
Camino users can exert themselves and make the trail a little nicer for those coming along behind them. That, too, is a fact.

Pilgrims who expect unending loveliness and superb sanitation are going to be disappointed.
Yet another reason to leave your expectations at home.

 

[annakappa]

There are no "pristine" trails in the world, at least not any that people and animals use. The camino is on Earth, and it is used by humans. So of course it´s not going to be perfect, or anything close to it.

Pilgrims who expect unending loveliness and superb sanitation are going to be disappointed.
Yet another reason to leave your expectations at home.

the Camino is bound to attract its share of inconsiderate people (and those suffering the effects of 'foreign' food!). However, bear in mind that the Camino from SJPP is 500 miles long and crosses a large European country. For every fouled up place there are miles of beauty.

So much has been written on this subject on this thread. In the world you just cannot expect everyone to think or behave like you. As previously mentioned, the Camino attracts hundreds of thousands of Pilgrims each year. Some are simply walkers enjoying the benefits and challenge of what the Camino offers (and why not). Others take the Pilgrimage seriously, and behave decently. Some would throw rubbish on the floor even in their own enviroment at home. Some find themselves kms and kms before the next village and simply "have to go". There are some large stretches on the Camino, several between 12 and 17 kms (the longest). Apart maybe a few bushes there, you can't expect to find a toilet! I challenge anyone who writes on this forum who can honestly say that at least once on their walk, they didn't have to "go". The main point is that what you have done should be covered up!!
As far as people simply discarding their bottles, plastic bags, etc. etc. along the Way, well they are simply badly educated, because it doesn't take much to carry an empty bottle or bag to deposit it in the next container.
The other problem is graffiti. It seems that some people just can't resist leaving their "mark" on each convenient surface they come accross - at home, abroad, on a train, on a bus, on Camino markers - you name it - they do it! Anne

 

[julianeb]

I have only recently found out that a lot of people just do the last 100 km of the trail so they can get the compostela - I guess there is a regular traffic jam into Santiago in the summer...And perhaps more litter along that part of the trail?

How physically difficult/dangerous is it to do the trail in winter? I am not now in shape to do much at any time of year, but I would rather train for winter than experience hordes of people along the way...I would not be walking the camino for socialization, but for a true pilgrimage...lots of solitary quiet time...prayer, talking to God, etc. Is the weather completely miserable in winter?

Well, not to hijack the thread...I will go look around and see if there is a thread for walking in winter and being alone on the road. Thanks to the veterans who encourage the potential future walkers!

( a very long time ago, I had plans to walk across the US using a mule as baggage help...it was fun to dream about but life happened instead...)

 

[Deleted member 3000]

It is stressful to walk the camino if you are highly sensitive to the actions of others. There are many other activities in life where you can better control the surrounding environment, so they are more suited for the sensitive. People really get in your way on the pilgrimage unless you eschew them. They will want the bed you want, take the restaurant table you want, snore, talk, use a cell phone, hog the internet computer, force you off the path as they ride by on a bicycle, clog the counter for coffee, smoke, block your Kodak moment, leave earlier than you do, dine later than you want, toss litter, speak some foreign language, sing, pray, etc. Bothersome is an understatement.

The crowds are part of the charm of the last 100km. Stay in hostales, and there is no bed-race pressure.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Sad to say, the camino in winter has people on it too. Some of them unpleasant.
People, litter, poo, inconvenience and miserable days are an inevitable part of any pilgrimage anywhere. Especially a spiritual ones. I second what you say, Falcon.
Like Sartre said, "Hell is other people." But heaven is, too. Angels.

And I say it again: You want to have a "real" camino, you cannot bring too many expectations with you. No matter what you expect, this path is going to come at you from out of left field. Even if it´s not baseball season.

Just so you know. If you just let the camino be what it is, and don´t compare it with anyplace else, it will amaze you.

Reb.

 

[tyrrek]

Julianeb

I've never walked a winter Camino so others will advise better, and there will be posts on the subject already. You sound like a relatively experienced walker, but for an inexperienced walker like me (walking April-May) I liked the fact that others were around in case of any injury/accident etc. Most of the Way is on farm tracks or minor roads (fine, but possibly muddy), but there are places where you're scrambling down a hill across rocks, which if dark, wet or icy could be a bit hazardous. Walking in winter I'd like to have a phone with me, but then I've never been known for my spirit of adventure!

Keith

 

[sillydoll]

If you want a truly medieval pilgrimage experience you should consider walking it in August when it is as it busiest! The Camino might have been a solitary trail for a couple of centuries after the hey-days of the 11th to 14th centuries, but I still don't think its reached the level of popularity it enjoyed in those first few centuries after the claim that the relics of the apostle had been discovered.

In her book The Way of Stars and StonesWilna Wilkinson arrives at the Cruz de Ferro in the heart of a February hurricane. She describes her disgust as she reaches the top of the great mound of stones to find cigarette packets, used syringes, broken bottles, chewing gum wrappers, bras, condoms, a cast from a broken arm and other 'sacrifices' left at the foot of the cross.
I have never walked in winter, only from May to September, and I've neve seen such junk up there. Maybe it is cleaned away more regularly in spring and summer.

 

[annakappa]

I forgot to mention that the Camino is no bed of roses. If it was, it wouldn't be a Pilgrimage - at least that is my opinion. My husband Adriaan,was VERY sceptical about certain aspects of doing this Pilgrimage, including possible bad hygiene conditions and sharing dorms - (sharing with others or "convivencia" in Spanish). We have now been back every year since 2007! There are soooo many rewarding aspects to this Journey. There can be unpleasant aspects too, especially those mentioned on this thread. All in all, Pilgrims are incredible well behaved and disciplined people, very, very considerate for their fellow Pilgrims. There will always be an inconsiderate person in your life, who doesn't live up to your standards. I think that the Camino is one incredible way of learning, accepting, enjoying meeting and sharing these few weeks with all sorts of people. Your type of person and the others! Anne

 

[letendre]

You have the conviction to be right, you think it is imperative you see your past accomplishments and future on the way to Compostela, you argue that tourists have no place on the way, you can not stand snorers or not hikers or promiscuity or in shelters or in the cathedral of Santiago, which you condemn commercialism of all providers who work with and for walkers.
But your message talk about details without importance.
The way of st james is not as you write

 

[jennysa]

There are many rare photos from the Camino, but I would like to offer this nearly-clean 100km marker photo. As with many photographs, timing is everything! The cleaning crew must have been there the day before.

How wonderful to see it looking so white and it is totally unrecognisable now. The picture that I took of it in May this year shows it covered in grafitti.

 

[William Marques]

You mean like this from 2006

 

[nonieconnor]

I have done hiking around the world, and this is definitely a cultural thing. In the US it took about 40 years to change people's attitudes, starting with Lady Bird Johnson and "Keep America Beautiful." Seems to me that one should carry a litter bag, pick up a few extra bottles along the way that were left by others, and try not to let it ruin your own camino and make you angry and judgmental--sort of defeats the purpose, I would think.

 

[sillydoll]

When we walked into Rome after walked the Via Francigena we were horrified by the litter everywhere, and the grafitti on ancient monuments, Roman walls, new buildings, buses and trains.

By contrast, the underground in Moscow could be mistaken for the interior of a world class museum with beautiful tiled floors, arched ceilings, statues and wall paintings and not a piece of litter in sight.

 

[tyrrek]

You have the conviction to be right, you think it is imperative you see your past accomplishments and future on the way to Compostela, you argue that tourists have no place on the way, you can not stand snorers or not hikers or promiscuity or in shelters or in the cathedral of Santiago, which you condemn commercialism of all providers who work with and for walkers.
But your message talk about details without importance.
The way of st james is not as you write

Hi Letendre

I don't really understand your post, but it is passionate so I would like to. When you say 'you cannot stand snorers...etc', who are you talking to? Are you talking to all of us, or a specific post? I love the way that this forum argues both for and against many aspects of the Camino including the presence of 'tourists' (however defined), and the role of commerce etc.

We'll never all agree, obviously!

Buen Camino and a happy, peaceful Christmas to you and yours.

Keith

 

[annakappa]

You have the conviction to be right, you think it is imperative you see your past accomplishments and future on the way to Compostela, you argue that tourists have no place on the way, you can not stand snorers or not hikers or promiscuity or in shelters or in the cathedral of Santiago, which you condemn commercialism of all providers who work with and for walkers.
But your message talk about details without importance.
The way of st james is not as you write

Hi Letendre

I don't really understand your post, but it is passionate so I would like to. When you say 'you cannot stand snorers...etc', who are you talking to? Are you talking to all of us, or a specific post?

Keith

Hello Letendre, I also didn't understand your post. I read it about 10 times, but still haven't arrived at any enlightenment! As Keith asks, are you referring to us as Forum, to a specific post, or to your own thoughts? Anne

 

[Deleted member 3000]

My wife and I walked for 65 days. You can read our hiking written in broken English on my blog
http://alaquarelle.wordpress.com/category/saint-james/
or in french on another blog
http://carnets-de-croquis.blogspot.com/ ... ompostelle

Too literal in reading, or looking for nuance where there may be none? My French should be so good.

 

[Abbeydore]

Alt,
Yes you have a lovely blog, thank you & a merry xmas

not sure about the smiley, when the sun's out but then it's a watercolour :lol:

David

ps love the avatar too, very Camino, thanks.

 

[letendre]

Alt,
Yes you have a lovely blog, thank you & a merry xmas

not sure about the smiley, when the sun's out but then it's a watercolour :lol:

David

ps love the avatar too, very Camino, thanks.

Thanks David !

We will walk again the camino francès on june.
We have only three months for hike training and learning spanish language.

Alt

 

[nc6000]

Is there still as much of an issue with litter on the Camino Frances?

I see that this thread was started in 2010 and that various groups have made efforts to clean up the route since this discussion started. I'm starting my Camino in April and am horrified at the thought of walking the route while surrounded by piles of litter and excrement etc.

I would have thought in general that the type of person attracted to the Camino would respect the route and their environs.