Ancient history along the Camino?

[JillGat]

I want to learn more about the ancient - Roman or even Pagan - sites I will pass along the Camino Frances and Camino Invierno this spring. Any recommended reading?

 

[evanlow]

Book V of the Codex Calixtinus.

Someone has already posted the translation in this forum...

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...s-guide-book-5-of-the-codex-calixtinus.14903/

 

[Pelegrin]

Very important site is Las Médulas on Camino de Invierno, which is a Roman gold mine. There was a huge mining activity in the Roman period in NW Spain, in fact the city of León was built on the place where the Legio VI was located to protect the gold deliveries towards Rome. On internet there is quite a few information in English about Roman mining in Spain.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Read up on the city of Lugo. Only city in theworld left with an intact Roman wall. Also, Castro on the Primitivo has very interesting ruins of a Roman village, moat and massive leader's house, where you can still see the bath, oven and columns that jad to be brought in from what ks now Italy because thae type of stone they are made with is found there and not in Spain. It has a museum, so I'm sure you can find information on line about it. And yes, it's all about the mines.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I need some help remembering the name of a book.
It is an excellent book that goes through most of the villages along the Camino Frances and tells about their history.
It was popular 10 years ago.
It was quite popular before there were over SEVENTY PAGES OF BOOKS about the Camino on amazon.com
SEVENTY PAGES!
Enough already!

Anyway, I'm in the desert and I don't have my books with me.
The book is quite fat.
On the cover is a photo of a Camino dirt path going through green fields.
I think the woman walking is wearing red.

Does anyone know the book I'm talking about???

 

[mspath]

Annie,
That book is the Pilgrimage Road to Santiago by Gitlitz and Davidson which is a good overview of the CF route and is available on Amazon as both paperback and ebook.

MM

 

[Anniesantiago]

Yes! I just found it on one of your previous posts and I was coming to post it!
I think it is an excellent book for anyone wanting to know some history - I certainly enjoyed it.
THANK YOU!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

If Roman stuff is your passion, Astorga is your town, Via de la Plata is your trail.

 

[peregrina2000]

Annie,
That book is the Pilgrimage Road to Santiago by Gitlitz and Davidson which is a good overview of the CF route and is available on Amazon as both paperback and ebook.

MM

I carried that huge book on my first camino, and it was HEAVY (of course those were the days before chargers and electric coils ). Having an e-book option is fabulous. Though I personally may not have scrutinized the thirty pages or so dedicated to the cathedral in Burgos, having quick access to such in-depth information about each and every historically and architecturally valuable site was really a plus. I remember reading all about the little church in Eirexe and its engravings and learned about things I never would have seen or appreciated otherwise. Too bad there isn't a similar book for the Vdlp or some of the other caminos that are also chock full of amazing sites.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I do agree with what Rebecca said.
The Roman ruins along the Via de la Plata are spectacular, and nothing in my opinion compares on the Camino Frances.
You may want to consider walking the VDLP.

 

[Pelegrin]

Read up on the city of Lugo. Only city in theworld left with an intact Roman wall. Also, Castro on the Primitivo has very interesting ruins of a Roman village, moat and massive leader's house, where you can still see the bath, oven and columns that jad to be brought in from what ks now Italy because thae type of stone they are made with is found there and not in Spain. It has a museum, so I'm sure you can find information on line about it. And yes, it's all about the mines.

The Primitivo has two more Roman sites: The Roman gold mine A Freita in Hospitales, and the arqueological site in Santa Eulalia de Bóveda, near San Román da Retorta.

 

[peregrina2000]

The Primitivo has two more Roman sites: The Roman gold mine A Freita in Hospitales, and the arqueological site in Santa Eulalia de Bóveda, near San Román da Retorta.

I made the short detour to Santa Eulalia, well worth it, but people should make sure to check on opening hours in Lugo before setting out. I seem to remember that Kiwi-family made the detour only to find the site closed.

 

[JillGat]

Book V of the Codex Calixtinus is Christian history, right? Thanks for the other suggestions. And no, I'm not interested in Pagan mysticism, but I have seen mention of ancient stone markers (pre-Roman) that I'd like to be able to identify if I pass them.

 

[mspath]

JillGat,

For more info re those ancient pre-Roman stone monuments in the area near Roncesvalles monastery see this chapter from their website. Click on the top EN tab for the English account.

MM

 

[Tincatinker]

Pagan mysticism? Pagan mysticism! Next you'll be saying your not bothered about the roots of the trees

Pax @JillGat but there are still enough of us "pagans" around to take offence if we can find some. You might find some of this thread www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/pagan-takeover.19101/ uninteresting, or this www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/is-this-true.26343/#post-210386 or even this www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/pre-christian-tracks.21620/#post-168528

Just remember - we were there first.

 

[naplesdon]

You might find some of the books written by Mark Kurlansky about the history of the Basque people (and cod fish) interesting reads. A walk to the castle atop Castrojerez is very revealing too.

 

[peregrina2000]

A walk to the castle atop Castrojerez is very revealing too.

Ok, biarritzdon, spill the beans. I have never made it up to visit the castle, though I have thought about it. What did I miss???

 

[Kanga]

Another vote for the Gitlitz and Davidson book. I've had it for ages but it was always too heavy to take and dipping into it away from the Camino does not work all that well. I took it in ebook form for our walk in September and used it extensively, as I was standing in front of the objects they were talking about, and as we walked into each town. Really helped to fill in the gaps in my knowledge.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I made the short detour to Santa Eulalia, well worth it, but people should make sure to check on opening hours in Lugo before setting out. I seem to remember that Kiwi-family made the detour only to find the site closed.

The opening hours are now posted on the sign that sends you in that direction. Right?

 

[peregrina2000]

The opening hours are now posted on the sign that sends you in that direction. Right?

Not sure, but I remembered that Juanma had a post on that on his albergue's page (he runs the very highly rated Albergue in Ponte Ferreira). It is very informative, nice pictures, and lists hours.
Even has a good map for the detour.

http://www.ponteferreira.com/2015/02/primitive-way-santa-eulalia-de-boveda/?lang=en

You could always email him if you are unsure about current hours. Buen camino, Laurie

 

[SYates]

It can only be "The pilgrimage road to Santiago - The complete cultural handbook" by D Gitlitz and L K Davidson. 440 pages and also available as e-book.

And here is the link to the book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0312254164/?tag=casaivar02-20
Buen Camino! SY

 

[VNwalking]

Ok, biarritzdon, spill the beans. I have never made it up to visit the castle, though I have thought about it. What did I miss???

Ditto, Don. If you please?

 

[naplesdon]

Ok, biarritzdon, spill the beans. I have never made it up to visit the castle, though I have thought about it. What did I miss???

It is well preserved and has a spectacular view of the region. One can get a good idea of what life might have been like living there in 900 AD. There is an earlier Roman settlement site a short distance away and it is easy to imagine the movement of traffic in the region during Roman times. If you walk the road from the west end of town it is not that strenuous a walk up the hill.

 

[peregrina2000]

It is well preserved and has a spectacular view of the region. One can get a good idea of what life might have been like living there in 900 AD. There is an earlier Roman settlement site a short distance away and it is easy to imagine the movement of traffic in the region during Roman times. If you walk the road from the west end of town it is not that strenuous a walk up the hill.

Thanks! Did you also visit the Roman settlement?

 

[Tincatinker]

As I understand it (I may be wrong) the word "pagan" usually refers to a variety of different religions and not to the whole culture and way of life of the people who were there before the Roman conquerer came. Maybe that word let me astray a bit .

Actually 'pagan' is a Roman word. Paganus, the country dweller, the rural, rustic and therefore lacking the sophistication of the Urbanus those clever, clever people who needed some monotheistic authority to support and justify their belief systems. You are right that the monotheists have used pagan as a, usually derogatory, term for any one who does not subscribe to the Abramaic faiths. Please remember that in many cultures / languages the name people give to themselves is most readily translated into English is "the people" or "ourselves". Nor do they have an individual to name their belief system after; they are simply 'believers'. It is other impositious cultures that tend to label things and attribute validity.

Journey to Galicia by Meso and Neo-lithic peoples for the purpose of interring the remains of their dead is strongly suggested by the archeological evidence en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture. Though the internment of the remains of individuals originating in distant parts of Europe may be attributable to migration and not Pre-Roman and therefore pre-Christian pilgrimage to the end-of-the-world.

 

[VNwalking]

I'm enjoying this thread immensely, and curiosity sparked by Tincatinker's post also sent me here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)
A fairly broad brush, but Galicia's ancient Pre-roman history is fascinating.

 

[kelleymac]

Annie,
That book is the Pilgrimage Road to Santiago by Gitlitz and Davidson which is a good overview of the CF route and is available on Amazon as both paperback and ebook.

MM

I bought this book in paperback before walking, and then downloaded it onto my kindle paperweight (reader with no internet access). My son and I would read the sections in the evenings or when we took breaks from walking. I love history, and just wish I had had more.

 

[peregrina2000]

I'm enjoying this thread immensely, and curiosity sparked by Tincatinker's post also sent me here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)
A fairly broad brush, but Galicia's ancient Pre-roman history is fascinating.

I have visited the Castros at Santa Tecla/Tegra and they are pretty much jaw-dropping (a quick google reveals lots of pictures). A huge hillside settlement is there for you to walk through, with beautiful ocean views. It's a little remote for pilgrims on foot, though if you walk the coastal Portuguese route and cross into Spain from Caminha, you won't be far from it. Though it's in the province of Pontevedra, it is more than 100 km by car. They pre-date the Romans by a couple of centuries.

 

[Mikel Olivares]

Very important site is Las Médulas on Camino de Invierno, which is a Roman gold mine. There was a huge mining activity in the Roman period in NW Spain, in fact the city of León was built on the place where the Legio VI was located to protect the gold deliveries towards Rome. On internet there is quite a few information in English about Roman mining in Spain.

The city of Leon founded to protect the gold mines.
The Roman Legion VI had a lion skin on his banner.
The Legion of "Leon"

 

[naplesdon]

Thanks! Did you also visit the Roman settlement?

It is nothing more than an empty plateau about 1 km away from the Castle.

 

[REV]

Not sure how far back your "ancient" history interest may be, but I found this 1980 article interesting:
Ice-Age Subsistence in Northern Spain
A 12,000-year record of man's quest for food in Pleistocene times has been found in a cave near the Bay of Biscay. Changes in the use of resources suggest a response to increasing demographic pressure
By Geoffrey A. Clark, Jesus A. Ortea, Jesus Altuna and Lawrence Guy Straus

 

[JillGat]

I'm enjoying this thread immensely, and curiosity sparked by Tincatinker's post also sent me here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)
A fairly broad brush, but Galicia's ancient Pre-roman history is fascinating.

Great little overview, thanks! I was using the term "Pagan" because I thought it encompassed all the pre-Christian, pre-Roman civilizations there. So now I will ask just about Celts and Vizagoths!

 

[REV]

oops
forgot to say that article was in a 1980 Scientific American

 

[Pelegrin]

Great little overview, thanks! I was using the term "Pagan" because I thought it encompassed all the pre-Christian, pre-Roman civilizations there. So now I will ask just about Celts and Vizagoths!

About Celts in Spain there are tons of information. Regarding Galicia, there are authors who say that everything in Galicia is celtic whereas other defend that this influence was small. So, as far as I know there is no agreement on this point. Nevertheless, there are places (and rivers) in Galicia with similar toponomy to the British islands

The genetics shows similarities in all Western European countries from the British Islands to Portugal
Hoplogroup R1b (R-M269) is the most common Y in those countries . But that connection is from Neolitic period, so, previous to the Celtic invasion.

The Visigoths had a Kindom in Spain that lasted almost 300 years. In Galicia and North Portugal the Suabian Kingdom lasted 180 years independent and finally was absorbed by the Visigoths. There is a lot of Germanic toponomy in Galicia.

 

[Mikel Olivares]

The Visigoths were not great builders.They take advantage of what the Romans left.
The few Visigoth works -churches and hermitas- were destroyed during the Muslim invasion.

 

[Pelegrin]

I've been electrified when I read recently on the forum about "Santa María de Lara, a rare visigothic church of c650AD in the sierra de la Demanda, south of Burgos. It's an amazing building, just outside the village of Quintanilla de las Viñas. The walls are covered with intricate stylised carvings showing plants, birds, vines and dogs". I had NO idea!

All we learnt in history lessons is that the Visigoths roamed around, ended up in Spain and then disappeared ... And this is the first time I hear of the Suabian kingdom! Astonishing. Thank you!

I can't see myself walk to all these places so there will have to be a car trip one day, hopefully, but I wonder whether there is Visigothic art to be seen along the Camino Francés?

Along the Camino Frances there isn´t any church from the Visigothic period. The closest are Ermita de Santa María in Quintanilla de las Viñas (40 kms from Burgos) and San Juan in Baños de Cerrato (50 kms from Carrión de los Condes).

 

[REV]

For more background on the Visigothic era, I recommend Joseph F. O'Callaghan, A History of Medieval Spain, Part I, The Visigothic Era, 415-711, 1. The Visigothic Kingdom, 2. Visigothic Government, 3. Visigothic Society and Culture. This book was published by Cornell University Press in 1975 with a paperback edition in 1983. ISBN 978-0-8014-p264-8 (ppbck), available from Amazon. The introduction ("Hispanic") provides a good introduction to Spanish historiography and the ongoing debate about the Visigothic influence on the development of Spanish culture.

The introduction mentions Americo Castro's The Spaniards: An Introduction to Their History, which has been criticized for not sufficiently recognizing the Visigothic influence, but is a fascinating analysis of the influence of Muslims, Jews, and Christians in the development of a uniquely Spanish character.

O'Callaghan has a good bibliography and some good charts.

I also recommend the previously-mentioned The Pilgrimage Road to Santiago: The Complete Cultural Handbook by David M. Glitz and Linda Kay Davidson. I used the paperback copy during an earlier car trip through northern Spain. The 440 page book is bulky. I have not used the Kindle version. I did, however, take iPhone pictures of the diagrams in an appendix entitled "Art Styles of the Road" and the charts of rulers (which helped me sort out the Alfonsos, Sanchos, Ramiros and others I encountered in descriptions along the Camino Francés.

 

[peregrina2000]

Along the Camino Frances there isn´t any church from the Visigothic period. The closest are Ermita de Santa María in Quintanilla de las Viñas (40 kms from Burgos) and San Juan in Baños de Cerrato (50 kms from Carrión de los Condes).

Alansykes, a forum member, is currently walking, and recently took a detour off the Lana to visit Santa María. He describes in in this thread:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...thic-jewel-south-of-burgos.36974/#post-352293



See also post #14 on this thread: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/well-im-back.37146/#post-355729
It provides links to GPS tracks, etc.

One great way to do this would be to take the bus from Burgos to Santo Domingo de Silos, spend a night there (visiting the monastery, going to service, etc), and the next day start a two day walk back to Burgos, as Alan did, which would include a stop at Santa María in Quintanilla.

 

[GreatDane]

If once you are on the CF you have time in Burgos (after you tour the cathedral of course) go to both the Museo de la Evolución Humana for really ancient and the Burgos museum. Both south of the river and cathedral by a block. The area around Burgos has been inhabited by hominids for 800,000+ years.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Once you get to Santiago, you have a wonderful resource available on all things archaeological and historical on the camino and in Galicia. His name is Jose Suarez Otero, a researcher, historian and archaeologist whose father was the same before him. He did much of the excavation of the the tombs beneath the cathedral, he's in charge of excavating a hillside site near Pontevedra that sticks out into the Atlantic (like Finisterra, but south) used for thousands of years by different waves of cultures... he knows of pre-Santiago pilgrim routes north-south that link sites related to St. Andrew, altars to Astarte, Viking raids on the Pico Sacra, and how to get to and get inside just about anywhere.
Hire him for a day, and pay him well above what he asks, because he is unappreciated now that the university and Xunta is divesting itself of such historians. He will run you ragged showing you history you never imagined, and you will eat and drink at exquisite and seldom-seen farmhouses and drinking dens only a local boy knows.

I will let you track him down yourself. Be sure you get a good night's sleep beforehand. Jose speaks English, but you do a whole lot better if you speak Castilian, or Gallego!

 

[Pelegrin]

Once you get to Santiago, you have a wonderful resource available on all things archaeological and historical on the camino and in Galicia. His name is Jose Suarez Otero, a researcher, historian and archaeologist whose father was the same before him. He did much of the excavation of the the tombs beneath the cathedral, he's in charge of excavating a hillside site near Pontevedra that sticks out into the Atlantic (like Finisterra, but south) used for thousands of years by different waves of cultures... he knows of pre-Santiago pilgrim routes north-south that link sites related to St. Andrew, altars to Astarte, Viking raids on the Pico Sacra, and how to get to and get inside just about anywhere.
Hire him for a day, and pay him well above what he asks, because he is unappreciated now that the university and Xunta is divesting itself of such historians. He will run you ragged showing you history you never imagined, and you will eat and drink at exquisite and seldom-seen farmhouses and drinking dens only a local boy knows.

I will let you track him down yourself. Be sure you get a good night's sleep beforehand. Jose speaks English, but you do a whole lot better if you speak Castilian, or Gallego!

The excavation in the site near Pontevadra must be that one located in Monte Facho (Cangas de Morrazo). The arqueological site is very important and it was a worship center dedicated to god Berobreo.

 

[naplesdon]

About Celts in Spain there are tons of information. Regarding Galicia, there are authors who say that everything in Galicia is celtic whereas other defend that this influence was small. So, as far as I know there is no agreement on this point. Nevertheless, there are places (and rivers) in Galicia with similar toponomy to the British islands

The genetics shows similarities in all Western European countries from the British Islands to Portugal
Hoplogroup R1b (R-M269) is the most common Y in those countries . But that connection is from Neolitic period, so, previous to the Celtic invasion.

The Visigoths had a Kindom in Spain that lasted almost 300 years. In Galicia and North Portugal the Suabian Kingdom lasted 180 years independent and finally was absorbed by the Visigoths. There is a lot of Germanic toponomy in Galicia.

In my humble opinion, it was the Basque who pre-dated the Celts and were possibly the founders of that population.

 

[naplesdon]

Not sure how far back your "ancient" history interest may be, but I found this 1980 article interesting:
Ice-Age Subsistence in Northern Spain
A 12,000-year record of man's quest for food in Pleistocene times has been found in a cave near the Bay of Biscay. Changes in the use of resources suggest a response to increasing demographic pressure
By Geoffrey A. Clark, Jesus A. Ortea, Jesus Altuna and Lawrence Guy Straus

 

[naplesdon]

This is an interesting aspect about walking through Spain. There are many regions with "glacial till" a phenomenon of how the glaciers pushed dirt and boulders over the top of the existing landscape. I t is a geological formation that I an familiar with having grown up in the midwest of the US. I have seen many similar deposit of clay and small stones while I have walked along the Camino but never stories of how the Ice Age affected the Iberian Peninsula.

 

[VNwalking]

Here you go, Don (not the whole articles, unfortunately--you have ot pay to see those)
http://hol.sagepub.com/content/18/4/551.short
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...12000713https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk
But here is way more than you'd ever want to know; scroll down to page 353
/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1b4089&datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS.PDF

 

[Sheffield James]

Ok, biarritzdon, spill the beans. I have never made it up to visit the castle, though I have thought about it. What did I miss???

I'll try to answer for biarritzdon by saying you miss one heck of a great view.