Are "piropos" still common in Spain?

[Sparrow in Texas]

While traveling in Madrid 35 years ago it was common for young women to receive a number of "piropos" seemingly innocent flirtaceous compliments. It could be quite startling if you did not know what was happening. The best response was to simply ignore then and go on your way. Is this still done in Spain or has it gone out of custom?

 

[SabsP]

While traveling in Madrid 35 years ago it was common for young women to receive a number of "piropos" seemingly innocent flirtaceous compliments. It could be quite startling if you did not know what was happening. The best response was to simply ignore then and go on your way. Is this still done in Spain or has it gone out of custom?

It has gone a bit out of custom. I will leave it to others here to give more information ( my English is somewhat too limited to handle this,to me,delicate subject ).

I found this interesting link from a couple of years ago.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2011/03/30/inenglish/1301462442_850210.html

Not all piropos though are flirtatious or " catcalling a woman ". I remember a senior shopassistant in a bakery calling every customer " Amor ".
Like some people in the UK call you " Love ". In that case I find it quite endearing.

 

[peregrina2000]

I was also in Madrid many years ago, but I pre-date you by at least ten years Sparrow. And yes, I also experienced them. My experience was that they were not always innocent or what I would call flirtatious, but often gross and demeaning. And sometimes, even worse, accompanied by groping or grabbing.

I am no longer in the demographic that would be the object of most of this, but even so my sense is that it is much less frequent, maybe even rare. The young Spanish women I know would never tolerate the kinds of things we put up with. True, I was a foreigner and an easier target, but my Spanish female college friends at the time also had to deal with it.

As is always the case in a society, some things change slowly, and I am sure there are still men in Spain (and everywhere else for that matter) who think that objectifying a woman with a comment about her anatomy is somehow acceptable (I will here resist the urge to put forth recent evidence from my own country, in fear of violating forum rules ). But I can also say that this is in no way the norm in Spain anymore, and that most Spaniards, male and female, would be offended and upset to hear much of what used to pass for "normal" back in the 70s.

 

[amancio]

Piropo, from Greek "word of fire". Mostly a part of the past, you might hear the odd one, but they are part of the past by now, not socially acceptable any more. Of course, you can get compliments at places, but it would not be anything like wolf whistling, howling or somebody shouting at you.

 

[SYates]

While traveling in Madrid 35 years ago it was common for young women to receive a number of "piropos" seemingly innocent flirtaceous compliments. It could be quite startling if you did not know what was happening. The best response was to simply ignore then and go on your way. Is this still done in Spain or has it gone out of custom?

It is far less frequent and nowadays it is called sexual harassment and frowned upon by many. Buen Camino, SY

 

[timr]

Like some people in the UK call you " Love ". In that case I find it quite endearing.

I am not in a position to comment on the question of the OP.

What Sabine refers to in UK is still quite common though, and almost invariably innocent, and rather regional too. In different parts of the country, and always more commonly in the north than the south, people may be called love, or my love, pet, hen, duck, flower (in the south-west), chuck, sweetheart etc and it is very rarely seen as offensive, although I cannot imagine trying to teach a non-native speaker how or when to use them!

One of the large supermarkets banned the use of "love" by staff to customers a few years ago, I think in the north east, but I remember the ban was lifted fairly rapidly.

On the contrary, I find being called 'sir' usually not very complimentary. Police men and women do it, though I have had very little to do with them. A security guard in Stansted airport used it 'at' me on Monday in a way which I found rude and condescending, which is strange, as it seems like it should be a term of respect. He was being rude in a fairly indiscriminating way to everybody, which I found embarrassing on behalf of the many foreign visitors. It can be respectful, but is not universally so.

 

[Mark Lee]

I am not in a position to comment on the question of the OP.

What Sabine refers to in UK is still quite common though, and almost invariably innocent, and rather regional too. In different parts of the country, and always more commonly in the north than the south, people may be called love, or my love, pet, hen, duck, flower (in the south-west), chuck, sweetheart etc and it is very rarely seen as offensive, although I cannot imagine trying to teach a non-native speaker how or when to use them!

One of the large supermarkets banned the use of "love" by staff to customers a few years ago, I think in the north east, but I remember the ban was lifted fairly rapidly.

On the contrary, I find being called 'sir' usually not very complimentary. Police men and women do it, though I have had very little to do with them. A security guard in Stansted airport used it 'at' me on Monday in a way which I found rude and condescending, which is strange, as it seems like it should be a term of respect. He was being rude in a fairly indiscriminating way to everybody, which I found embarrassing on behalf of the many foreign visitors. It can be respectful, but is not universally so.

I'm in my 50's and I say "sir" quite often, even to men younger than myself. I say "ma'am" more frequently, and to women of all ages, even those much younger.
I grew up saying it, and it just never went away. More a thing of politeness, than respect. Of course, when I was in the military it was custom and courtesy when addressing officers. When I was a copper, it was part of dealing with the public. If I made contact with someone and did not know their name, I needed to address them in some way. I certainly would not say "hey lady" or "hey man", so the logical and polite thing to do is use sir or ma'am.

 

[C clearly]

Maybe getting a bit off topic, but here's another question for the Spanish language experts. I find that in Spain and also recently in Mexico, I have been referred to as "Senorita." (Although I am also offered discounts for being over 65, even unsolicited!) At first I wondered if it was a silly effort at flattery, which I didn't really care for. However, I've heard it enough now that I wonder if it is now the equivalent of "Ms" in English. Any comments?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

... in Mexico, I have been referred to as "Senorita." (Although I am also offered discounts for being over 65, even unsolicited!) At first I wondered if it was a silly effort at flattery, which I didn't really care for. However, I've heard it enough now that I wonder if it is now the equivalent of "Ms" in English. Any comments?

Let me share a senorita story: one day, I must have been 5 or 6, I went with my mother to Mercado de artesanias/Cuidadela with my mom. The men at the various kiosks where of course tryong to get our attention so my mom would buy something from them rather than at another kiosk. One of them called her "senorita" ... I still remember turning around and telling him in no uncertain terms "Mi mama no es una senorita, esta casada!" (My mom is not a Miss, she is married!"

Ms is a term used when wanting to be "mariage neutral", senorita is not. Also used is "seno", when buying your fruit at a stall or candy from the street vendor, not your Rolex that is. ;0)

Vulgar catcalling would be a nono, but there are wonderful piropos, alas this is a lost art. I'm sure that if you google you will find some. A relative, who would have been 90 today, and Canadian, met his wife on a blind date. When they were introduced she said to him "I could get lost in your eyes". Balsy girl for those days. 3 weeks later they were engaged, married in 6!

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Maybe getting a bit off topic, but here's another question for the Spanish language experts. I find that in Spain and also recently in Mexico, I have been referred to as "Senorita." (Although I am also offered discounts for being over 65, even unsolicited!) At first I wondered if it was a silly effort at flattery, which I didn't really care for. However, I've heard it enough now that I wonder if it is now the equivalent of "Ms" in English. Any comments?

I hope it's not the same as when ladies of a certain age begin to be called "young lady" by those younger than they are...the first time I get "young lady"d will be the last time at least one person uses the phrase.

although unmarried, not wearing a ring, and clearly alone, I was usually addressed as Senora. may just be the habit or expectations of the person talking. In the military, I was often addressed as "sir"

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

What Sabine refers to in UK is still quite common though, and almost invariably innocent, and rather regional too.

In Baltimore (maryland, US), women are traditionally "hon"

 

[C clearly]

I must have been 5 or 6, I went with my mother to Mercado de artesanias/Cuidadela with my mom.

I was there yesterday! Great place!

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

I'm in my 50's and I say "sir" quite often, even to men younger than myself. I say "ma'am" more frequently, and to women of all ages, even those much younger.
I grew up saying it, and it just never went away. More a thing of politeness, than respect. Of course, when I was in the military it was custom and courtesy when addressing officers. When I was a copper, it was part of dealing with the public. If I made contact with someone and did not know their name, I needed to address them in some way. I certainly would not say "hey lady" or "hey man", so the logical and polite thing to do is use sir or ma'am.

habits are hard to break. I say "sir" and "ma'am" all the time.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Police men and women do it, though I have had very little to do with them.

maybe for the reasons Mark mentioned, a part of police training. I know in the US many military veterans are being hired as security, police, etc...it is a lot harder to stop saying sir/ma'am than you would imagine....

 

[Mark Lee]

habits are hard to break. I say "sir" and "ma'am" all the time.

not like it's a bad habit to have....I say keep doing it
in the south it is quite normal, almost expected of someone "raised right", especially when you are younger

 

[Icacos]

.......it is a lot harder to stop saying sir/ma'am than you would imagine....

And I hope you Americans never stop saying sir / ma'am. I just love hearing it; it gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

I've been called recently 'Miss' and 'young lady' and it didn't bother me in the least. I've also been called / had this said to me, by a twenty-something male - and I hardly think I deserved it - "You wrinkled, grey-haired old lady. You are going to die soon so you may as well chill out and enjoy the few years you have left." Honest truth .... this happened in Starbucks.

On a more serious note, is it not the usual thing to call a Spanish man 'Señor'? My walking companion and I did so while on camino (we were taught that when learning Spanish at school - many years ago) but we never heard anyone else saying it in Spain.

 

[HeidiL]

Getting quite off topic, but I had an old, strict Spanish teacher from the upper class for a while, and after twenty years, I still have problems NOT saying Usted to people. As it is, I tend to start off saying Usted to all adults (except fellow pilgrims, if we have slept in the same room we're on first name terms!), then quietly modify to tu if THEY say it first.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Getting quite off topic, but I had an old, strict Spanish teacher from the upper class for a while, and after twenty years, I still have problems NOT saying Usted to people. As it is, I tend to start off saying Usted to all adults (except fellow pilgrims, if we have slept in the same room we're on first name terms!), then quietly modify to tu if THEY say it first.

My grade school Spanish teacher was very insistent about usted, and taught us with a Castilian accent. Which helped a lot in Southern California A college instructor, from South America, had unkind words about the use of usted and refused to teach it or allow its use in class.

 

[alexwalker]

"Usted" is used to address (politely, with respect) older people, I was taught in my Spanish class in Alicante this April. And, one day on the Camino, I passed an old man who said "Buenos dias", and I replied "Buenos dias, senor". He immediately replied, corrective: "Usted!"

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

"Usted" is used to address (politely, with respect) older people, I was taught in my Spanish class in Alicante this April. And, one day on the Camino, I passed an old man who said "Buenos dias", and I replied "Buenos dias, senor". He immediately replied, corrective: "Usted!"

my instructor felt the use of usted vs tu was a class distinction not appropriate for the modern day. She also probably voted socialist I have always had a hard time producing the correct sound of "rr" and in this class, listening to tapes of native South American speakers, began to question my ability with "ll". I asked her 'sometimes it sounds more like a "ya" but sometimes I think it sounds like an "lya" or even an "l" at the beginning of a word when they speak...which is it?"
she replied "it is like the animal" (here I assumed llama)...which really didn't clarify what I was supposed to do with my tongue, but did lead to a running joke with my friends about my (actual) desire to visit Peru, to pet the yamas.

 

[oursonpolaire]

I was at the edge of a conversation on this topic between a Brazilian and a US pilgrim-- the Brazilian said that she found Spain refreshingly free of the comments to which she had become accustomed in Rio. The US pilgrim, who had studied in Spain for a year, said that she encountered them on occasion in Madrid and, while she found them annoying, she had no feeling of menace or threat in the way she would feel in her own home town (in the midwest IIRC). I gather that the climate in Spain and the tolerance for street harassment has changed greatly in the past twenty years but, as a middle-aged bearded male, I don't have a lot of direct personal knowledge on the topic.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

"I passed an old man who said "Buenos dias", and I replied "Buenos dias, senor". He immediately replied, corrective: "Usted!"

Uh? Usted goes nowhere in "Buenos dias senor". Makes no sense whar so ever.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

my instructor felt the use of usted vs tu was a class distinction not appropriate for the modern day.
.

I think in a way it can be a class thing: first, it's the uneducated person not knowing anybetter (by uneducated I am translating litterally from French, meaning "rude" bit those lower classes who may not have been taught the basics of etiquette), but also the "beautiful people" ("gente bien" in Mexico) using to when addressong those serving them, at home, at the shops, etc. Using "tu" can show contempt. It's borderline.

Honnestly, when in Spain and speaking to an hospy, ordering a coffee, etc. it is unatural for me to use "tu"; I certainly would not do here at home.

Here at home you would not catch me using "tu" with a stranger, except a child.

Here at home I always smile when my nanny greets the handyman with a "Bonjour Monsieur" and he responds "Bonjour Madame". She does it to be polite of course, but also out of a very deeply rooted sense of inferiority which drives me mad as she has never thought thinking as herself as a "simple indigenous servant" - her words! This woman has more heart and dignity than anyone else I know, but it was drilled into her from her first job at 6 years old that she is just an "Indian servant" (she is from the region of Oaxaca and now 81). Drives me nuts! She deserves being called "Madame" and addressed as "vous" when she runs her errands.

And will not forget the day I learned the expression, in French, "we did not raise pigs together". It came from one of my uni profs, when a student addressed him as "tu" in class. Don't think that student ever tried "tu" with any other professor!

 

[alexwalker]

Uh? Usted goes nowhere in "Buenos dias senor". Makes no sense whar so ever.

Replace "senor" with "usted".

 

[Felipe]

The usage of "usted" versus "tú" has many nuances, and differs a lot between countries, cultures, social groups and group ages. Complicating things more, ¿have you noticed that the "usted" is grammatically a second person of singular, but the verbs associated are conjugated as being in the third? This usually makes things very difficult to non Spanish speakers.
About nuances...the "usted" is usually a polite form, but it can also used to stress social distances or admonishions. When I was a boy, I knew very well that when my dad turned to speak to me with "usted", I was into trouble.
"Tú" may be also used to show comptent or disrespect, not familiarity. I would never, never use the "tú" with the immigration officer at an airport.
I'd add that in some regions there is another variation: the "vos" (it is generally considered as an archaic reverential form, but it is still common usage in Centroamerica, Argentina and Uruguay; it works as "tú").
I think that in general you play safe when you use the "usted". But when you are obviously a foreigner trying to speak Spanish, you will be forgiven if you use the wrong forms. So, try your linguist abilities, it is not a big deal.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Well that would be an error, you do not say "buenos dias usted" or "good day you". You do say Buenos dias senor.

 

[C clearly]

"Usted" is used to address (politely, with respect) older people, I was taught in my Spanish class in Alicante this April. And, one day on the Camino, I passed
an old man who said "Buenos dias", and I replied "Buenos dias, senor". He immediately replied, corrective: "Usted!"

I think you misunderstood. He was not correcting you, as you were perfectly correct in saying "Buenos días señor." What the man said back was a contraction of "y a usted" which means "and to you." In English someone might say "Good morning" and get the reply "same to you".

 

[Sparrow in Texas]

Thank you all so much for your replies to my question. This spring while walking the Camino I met many wonderful Spanish people and thoughtful pilgrims from all over the world. It has been fascinating to watch how society and cultures evolve over a lifetime and still the character and beauty of the Spanish countryside endures.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Given the variety of answers to the OP I wonder if we all share the same understanding of what the word "piropos" means in English?

I think that closest definition is "chat up lines"

What do others think?

 

[SabsP]

Given the variety of answers to the OP I wonder if we all share the same understanding of what the word "piropos" means in English?

I think that closest definition is "chat up lines"

What do others think?

Well , for me, depending on the person and the style in which he makes the comments : flirtatious or flattering. Flattering I like , flirting not. Difficult to give an example what is what for me because it depends from the person and the situation.

 

[SYates]

Given the variety of answers to the OP I wonder if we all share the same understanding of what the word "piropos" means in English?

I think that closest definition is "chat up lines"

What do others think?

Actually not ;-) It is better translated as 'compliment' but one that a woman isn't supposed to answer if she is a 'honorable woman'. It all used to be a bit of banter/fun in ye olde good old times. Buen Camino, SY

 

[JohnnieWalker]

So... "flirting with a double entendre"?

I'm not sure "compliment" works!

 

[Pelegrin]

The last piropo reservation in Spain was the workers in building constructions . I think that this custom also finished there because the security rules.

 

[SYates]

Uh, it is different to explain.

Well dressed, good looking woman passed a man or a group of men and he/they would have called out something like "That blue dress really makes your eyes stand out." or "That green dress makes your red hair glow like fire."

The idea was/is that the men tried to make an intelligent compliment (to impress the woman) and not just a simple cat-call like "hi, beauty".

The woman would take note who said what (we are speaking Spain several decades ago) and perhaps be more inclined to chat if the same man approached her at the next fiesta.

So more a preliminary to a chat up line.

But now, the art of piropos has sadly declined to cat-calls ;-( (Now why are they called cat calls?)

Buen Camino, SY

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Ok - got it! Thanks.

Quite different from the terms of endearment still used (mainly) by older people such as "cariño", "rey" "corazón" etc.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Given the variety of answers to the OP I wonder if we all share the same understanding of what the word "piropos" means in English?

I think that closest definition is "chat up lines"

What do others think?

well, i think as usual we just got sidetracked.
I have the feeling that is is supposed to be what in the States is a pick-up line (so I would guess agree chat-up line), as @SYates says, something that should impress the object of desire, not chase her away. What I'm curious about is, the OP posed the question like she hadn't been to Spain recently, then said she had, without discussing if she saw it the same way any more...

 

[SYates]

Ok - got it! Thanks.

Quite different from the terms of endearment still used (mainly) by older people such as "cariño", "rey" "corazón" etc.

Yes, very! The later is more comparable to the (regional) English terms 'luv, duck or pet', BC SY

 

[SYates]

OK, quick pet story. An Anglican (CoE) bishop and that had recently changed diocese from the North to the Middle of England said to me (paraphrased from memory):

"At least people here people call me luv (love) and not anymore pet or duck!"

He said it with tongue in cheek ;-) SY

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Pick up line! Not a term of endearment.

 

[Sparrow in Texas]

As the OP, perhaps I should explain a bit. I lived in Spain as a child and later, as a young adult, visited Madrid before many of the changes in machismo and attitudes toward women slowly came about. I experienced many piropos, some less welcome than others. Now, after 35 years I returned to walk the Camino. I marveled at all the physical and social changes that have taken place in those years but also at other things like the villages that have changed very little, even in hundreds of years.

The link that SabineP included which I copy here
http://elpais.com/elpais/2011/03/30/inenglish/1301462442_850210.html
clearly explains what a piropo is and that it was deeply rooted in Spanish culture. Time produces many welcome changes in a society, not everywhere in the world is so fortunate. This just happens to be one thing that someone like me of a certain age would notice, or the lack of. A younger generation hardly knows what it is or means.

For the record, I did happen to exchange pleasantries with a few older gentlemen along the Camino and they were most graceous.

 

[navarro]

It has gone a bit out of custom. I will leave it to others here to give more information ( my English is somewhat too limited to handle this,to me,delicate subject ).

I found this interesting link from a couple of years ago.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2011/03/30/inenglish/1301462442_850210.html

Not all piropos though are flirtatious or " catcalling a woman ". I remember a senior shopassistant in a bakery calling every customer " Amor ".
Like some people in the UK call you " Love ". In that case I find it quite endearing.

ja ja ja.... The woman shopassistant in the bakery ever says me " Hola guapo" or "adios guapo" And I answer "gracias"

 

[SYates]

The one I like the best if when I turn up on the Camino and old Spanish friends greet me with an astonished "!Hombre!" and laugh and answer back "!No, mujer!" ;-) SY

 

[JohnnieWalker]

The one I like the best if when I turn up on the Camino and old Spanish friends greet me with an astonished "!Hombre!" and laugh and answer back "!No, mujer!" ;-) SY

Yes, it can surprise non native Spanish speakers that "hombre" and "señor" can be used for both genders depending on the context

 

[Lmsundaze]

Yes, it can surprise non native Spanish speakers that "hombre" and "señor" can be used for both genders depending on the context

Hey man, you gotta be kidding

 

[Icacos]

Yes, it can surprise non native Spanish speakers that "hombre" and "señor" can be used for both genders depending on the context

Yes, it does surprise me, but it's nice to know. Here, it's common to hear "you guys" or "buddies" in reference to both genders. But not "man," except as in "mankind" but even that has morphed into "humankind."

 

[JillGat]

Yes, it does surprise me, but it's nice to know. Here, it's common to hear "you guys" or "buddies" in reference to both genders. But not "man," except as in "mankind" but even that has morphed into "humankind."

"Dude" is now inclusive of both/all genders, too.

 

[JillGat]

While traveling in Madrid 35 years ago it was common for young women to receive a number of "piropos" seemingly innocent flirtaceous compliments. It could be quite startling if you did not know what was happening. The best response was to simply ignore then and go on your way. Is this still done in Spain or has it gone out of custom?

I was in Spain about 35 years ago and, for the life of me, I can't figure out why I don't get the constant catcalls from men now that I got back then I have to say that one advantage of aging is less harassment. It's also gratifying to hear that this behavior has gone out of style in general. It was a real pain back in the day.

In another safety thread, there were alarmed reports about an old man in Castrojerez (on the Frances) who would sidle up, compliment and then suddenly grope peregrinas. The advice nowadays is to report him to the police. He grabbed at me, too, and it never occurred to me to bring in law enforcement. That kind of thing happened at least on a daily basis to me in Spain in the 1970s. I just figured this guy was the same guy who groped me back in 1973, when he was 25 and I was 18.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

not referencing the catcalls, but rather the more courtly examples that were listed above, I wonder if it is less objectifying of women bringing about less piropos, or rather that it is the type of effort a young man had to put into getting the attention (and perhaps more) of a young lady has decreased in this age of friends with benefits, hooking up, Tinder, and Ashley Madison (I don't mean to offend anyone using either app).

 

[Pelegrin]

The one I like the best if when I turn up on the Camino and old Spanish friends greet me with an astonished "!Hombre!" and laugh and answer back "!No, mujer!" ;-) SY

¡ Hombre ! is just an expresion of surprise and can be also used with a pet that suddenly appears.