Asian women on the Camino?

[Daniel L]

I walked from La Virgen del Camino to Santibanez today and I must say these parts of the route definily aren't very welcoming to Asians. At least in Navarre or in La Rioja people asked me if I was Korean (and give a confused stare back when I tell them I'm Canadian), here most locals don't even speak any English, and they clearly aren't very fond of non-whites. I could name a few, like how even in small villages people don't respond to your greetings and give a blank, alarmed stares back, being totally ignored and served very last at bars, etc., but I know all too well it varys from person to person and all I'm saying is that the vibe I get in general clearly indicated racism against Asians and the past few days of the Camino Frances wasn't so great for an asian(compared to first ten days or so starting from SJPP, which were great!).

Of course some of you might point out that this quasi-racism thing has very little to do with Denise's disappearance, but I just got "Ching-cheng-chong!"ed from some local thugs hanging at a bar in Villares de Orbigo few hours ago, and not only was it extremely unpleasant, I don't think I would've felt very safe if I was a 40-year old woman travelling alone.

The atmosphere here is very different from the first few days of Frances, which was much more pilgrim-friendly. And for those who say they'd feel safe sending their 16-old daughters alone on Camino, well, good for you sir/maam, but I wouldn't send mine.

Tomorrow I'll be passing the part where Denise went missing. I'll pray for her and her family.

PS- didn't see any missing person posters in Santibanez albergue.

 

[BethC]

This will initially sound unpleasant, but I was in SE Asia as a farang recently and was literally taken LAST out of hundreds of Asians no matter how early I arrived on many occasions, and the transportation officials were often very rude. SE Asia is, of course, not the Camino and I would have expected better treatment of you as a peregrina.

That said, I am truly sorry for your experience and am not looking forward to walking through places with bars and local thugs myself. I'm also concerned because although it is what I'd imagined could be the case, people tend to minimize those things related to the Camino - walking as a female is a totally different thing when it comes to offensiveness/harassment/predatory behavior and taking liberties. You probably know this, but Koreans are doing the Camino in droves related to a book about the Camino that is popular there. Still no reason to assume, though.

I'll be thinking of you during your walk tomorrow and wishing you every happiness for the rest of your Camino. I've thought about completely bypassing that entire area around Astorga. Please post again and say what your experiences are, if you have a moment!

 

[Gladys Ann Graham]

Thank you for this post Sunik. I'm a Filipina, my husband is a Canadian. We will be traveling together. Your post made me think a lot about Denise.
Please post more after you pass by Astorga. I'll keep you in my prayers. Stay safe.

 

[Kanga]

I'm really sorry to hear this @Sunik Lee. Prejudice is so ugly. I'd walk with you, if I could.

 

[William Marques]

The first two post were taken from the Denise Thiem thread and placed here as they do not directly concern Denise but raise a possible problem which warrants discussion.

 

[oursonpolaire]

A Black friend of mine from Montréal was twice told that she was not Canadian, but must be from the Dominican Republic, as that would explain her accent in Castilian. She is still trying to figure this out. Her theory was that small-town Spain's dealings with diversity were reminiscent of small-town Canada a half-century ago; if they could not figure out what box into which they could classify one, they just really didn't know what to do. That might explain the loutish behaviour Sunik Lee ran into.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

I walked from La Virgen del Camino to Santibanez today and I must say these parts of the route definily aren't very welcoming to Asians. At least in Navarre or in La Rioja people asked me if I was Korean (and give a confused stare back when I tell them I'm Canadian), here most locals don't even speak any English, and they clearly aren't very fond of non-whites. I could name a few, like how even in small villages people don't respond to your greetings and give a blank, alarmed stares back, being totally ignored and served very last at bars, etc., but I know all too well it varys from person to person and all I'm saying is that the vibe I get in general clearly indicated racism against Asians and the past few days of the Camino Frances wasn't so great for an asian(compared to first ten days or so starting from SJPP, which were great!).

Of course some of you might point out that this quasi-racism thing has very little to do with Denise's disappearance, but I just got "Ching-cheng-chong!"ed from some local thugs hanging at a bar in Villares de Orbigo few hours ago, and not only was it extremely unpleasant, I don't think I would've felt very safe if I was a 40-year old woman travelling alone.

The atmosphere here is very different from the first few days of Frances, which was much more pilgrim-friendly. And for those who say they'd feel safe sending their 16-old daughters alone on Camino, well, good for you sir/maam, but I wouldn't send mine.

Tomorrow I'll be passing the part where Denise went missing. I'll pray for her and her family.

PS- didn't see any missing person posters in Santibanez albergue.

Hello, too bad that those things happened. Let we hope that the rest of your journey will be more pleasant for you. I wish you well and a Buen Camino, Peter.

 

[Gailsie]

I would have thought that with the tight economic situation in Spain, that all pilgrims would be welcomed, no matter what race, religion and/or skin colour. The Spanish people along the Frances route should be used to the variety of peoples crossing the landscape over the last few years since the numbers increase each year. It is hard to read the OP comments. I hope that the remainder of the camino is more pleasant than this.

 

[Sophia W]

Thanks for the heads up!

I'm planning on hiking alone next spring and have been curious about this particular topic as a petite Asian American (Filipina) in my early 30s. It will be my first time on the Camino, but I've spent a lot of time in Spain to know how the reception to Asians can be. And I can definitely relate to the stories of the dreaded "where are you from"/"de donde eres" questions. I have picked up from most of my travels that saying you're from the U.S. or Canada when you're not Caucasian often has a befuddling reaction that leads you to explaining your life story. (Where you live, where you were born, where your parents are from...) For the most part, it's all innocent curiosity. But with the combined influence of calling Chicago home and studying abroad in Madrid, I think I've got an arsenal of sassy, potty-mouthed comebacks in Castellano in case I hear any variation of "Ching chong" or hostile comments about "la china" or "chinita" or whatever beef people have with Koreans on the pilgrimage.

...but just in case, I think I will buy a whistle. And make sure I've made friends I can walk with by the time I've crossed into Castilla-Leon.

I hope the rest of your journey will be safe and free of distractions like these! Buen camino.

 

[Anamya]

Her theory was that small-town Spain's dealings with diversity were reminiscent of small-town Canada a half-century ago; if they could not figure out what box into which they could classify one, they just really didn't know what to do.

That happens in a looooot of places, not only Spain Over there, I lost count of how many times I had this conversation:

- Where are you guys from?
- Australia.
- Oh, but your Spanish is so good!
- Gracias, I was born in Brazil, makes it easier.
- Brazil? But you are so pale!
- I am, indeed. Could me and my husband have some "naranja natural, por favor"?
- Oh, is the Chinese guy your husband?
- He's Australian.
- 2 euros, please. (*very confused look*)

It happened almost everyday at the Camino, but it also happens almost everyday when we travel anywhere. I suppose people are not used to deal with other people that are different, or don't fit the stereotypes. Sometimes they are just curious, sometimes completely clueless. It's sad that it tainted your Camino experience, Sunik. Hope it gets better in the next cities! It shouldn't matter at all where pilgrims come from, they are all pilgrims!

 

[Stephen Nicholls]

It certainly doesn't matter where pilgrims come from - we are a wonderful global community.
However, although the conversation with the shop-keeper may seem rather intrusive, at least they had a conversation with you . I think that's better than just "Two euros!"
....... just my opinion ....

 

[Anamya]

However, although the conversation with the shop-keeper may seem rather intrusive, at least they had a conversation with you . I think that's better than just "Two euros!"
....... just my opinion ....

Oh, I agree with you! Don't even think it was that intrusive, actually, and I liked to talk to people on the Camino. As Sophia W also commented, it seems "innocent curiosity".
I was just pointing out how people are not used to those who look different from their own community, sorry if I sounded cranky!
As long as respect is kept, it's fine!

 

[Kanga]

@Anamya I loved your story! It did make me laugh. And such a good illustration of how silly is the whole race thing.

 

[NualaOC]

I walked from La Virgen del Camino to Santibanez today and I must say these parts of the route definily aren't very welcoming to Asians. At least in Navarre or in La Rioja people asked me if I was Korean (and give a confused stare back when I tell them I'm Canadian), here most locals don't even speak any English, and they clearly aren't very fond of non-whites. I could name a few, like how even in small villages people don't respond to your greetings and give a blank, alarmed stares back, being totally ignored and served very last at bars, etc., but I know all too well it varys from person to person and all I'm saying is that the vibe I get in general clearly indicated racism against Asians and the past few days of the Camino Frances wasn't so great for an asian(compared to first ten days or so starting from SJPP, which were great!).

Of course some of you might point out that this quasi-racism thing has very little to do with Denise's disappearance, but I just got "Ching-cheng-chong!"ed from some local thugs hanging at a bar in Villares de Orbigo few hours ago, and not only was it extremely unpleasant, I don't think I would've felt very safe if I was a 40-year old woman travelling alone.

The atmosphere here is very different from the first few days of Frances, which was much more pilgrim-friendly. And for those who say they'd feel safe sending their 16-old daughters alone on Camino, well, good for you sir/maam, but I wouldn't send mine.

So sorry you had this experience, Sunik Lee. I hope that the remainder of your journey is trouble-free. Buen Camino.

 

[Icacos]

.......people asked me if I was Korean (and give a confused stare back when I tell them I'm Canadian

........that saying you're from the U.S. or Canada when you're not Caucasian often has a befuddling reaction that leads you to explaining your life story.

When you tell someone where you are from and you get a confused stare back, why not simply smile and say, "We come in all colours." That's what I do. I find often people simply don't know, and just need to be educated.

You see, I am Caucasian, but I come from the West Indies, where the population is predominantly dark skinned. When I meet people (even English speaking people), and because I speak with "an accent," the conversation often goes like this:

"Where are you from."
"The West Indies." (puzzled look). Explain further, "The Caribbean."
"Oooh! How long did you live there?"
"I was born there."
"And where were your parents born?"
"They were born there too." (I can trace my ancestry there back to 1792.)
This is where I smile nicely and say, "We come in all colours."

Often, if I'm feeling mischievous and someone asks where I'm from, I'll say, "I'm a West Indian." You should see the confused face then!

 

[Daniel L]

Thank you everyone for your kind words.

And thank you, moderator person, for moving my initial post from Denise thread to this one. (God my phone battery died and everything I wrote are gone. Oh well) What I was going to say was, at the time of my original writing, I was bit emotional, a little scared even, and thought about what Denise might've gotten through before her disappearance. Her story was the first and just about the only thing I read online before coming to Spain - I'm between jobs(lots of free time), and made a snap, spur of the moment decision a week before my starting date(my little brother did the Camino three times so that helped) - so naturally I've been thinking about her a lot.

To be clear, the beginning part of Camino Frances was fantastic; receptive and friendly locals, finding someone who speaks Engish was easy, and few even taught me some Spanish(and kindly corrected me when I say something wrong). After Burgos and beginning around Leon(a day after Fromista, I think), atmosphere was different. The best treatment was folks acting as if I was an invisible man. Not responding to greetings just minor disappointments. Three or four times I was given totally wrong directions, like when I asked for bar, tienda or fuente they'd point in the direction that turned out to be the exact opposite of actual direction(didn't think it was intentional at first, but after few in a row you begin to have doubts). Incidentally the part where Denise was last seen was fast approaching, and the day before I was supposed to pass through said area, "ching chong!" happens.

Anyway the next day I realized my little "episode" in fact had nothing to do with finding a missing person, so I was going to write an apology and remove my original post from Denise Thiem thread. I'm very glad forum moderator beat me to it!

As for my trivial "hardships", I decided to take it as is and don't let it bother me anymore. Of course, that "ching cheng chong" was pretty bad, but I quickly realized it's like trying to avoid stepping onto horsecrap on the road and ending up twisting your ankle. Stuff happens, regardless of your particular location on Earth.

As for some locals(very few I might add, but varies between different regions) not returning greetings or staring at you funny, well, they might've had some bad experience with Asians in the past, maybe? Who knows. Nothing I can do about it. Still must be way better than what african-Americans had to endure in pre-civil rights America so I shouldn't complain.

What I've learned from my travelling experiences is that you get much friendlier reaction from the locals if you speak their language, even if it's only rudimentary or functional. Had I more time to prepare, I definitely would've studied Spanish language more, but I only had five days to prepare, so.. oh well.

Carrying a whistle doesn't sound like a bad idea but I doubt how effective it would be if in one in a million chance you do come into contact with a person with malignant intents. There are few lengthy stretches in the countryside where depending on the time of the day(mostly in the afternoon) you don't see another person for hours at a time. Walking with other people would be the safest bet. Although I mostly agree with the general consesus that the Camino is extremely safe, and retract my original statement that I wouldn't send my daughter alone on Camino, the least I can say is that the area around Leon-Astorga is more pleasant when you have company.

 

[Anamya]

Sunik, it's so good to hear that you feel better! Still sorry that you went through some bad stuff, but thanks for sharing with the forum. I believe we all can learn somethin from your story and make our caminos better.

Buen Camino!

 

[Anniesantiago]

Often, if I'm feeling mischievous and someone asks where I'm from, I'll say, "I'm a West Indian." You should see the confused face then!

This made me smile, as my eldest son is Cruzan, born in St. Croix.
When people there are rude to him, he can just switch into a nice Creole patois, "Heeeeeey, mahn! YOU mad sick! I Cruzan! I eat fish and fungi undah da jumbi tree! I bahn heah!"

Regarding the OP, I'm so sorry this happened to you with the rude ruffians!
Those come in all colors and nationalities!

I have taken several asian folks on the Camino and their experience was quite different.
They were treated very pleasantly.

One thing I thought of was that by August, the locals are often pretty burnt out on ANY pilgrims.
We're like locusts to a lot of them.
We damage the land, leave our trash all along the pilgrimage, and also can be quite rude and demanding.
They probably just wish we'd all go home by now.

Anyway, sorry this happened to you.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

To infer that the country after Fromista is more racist than other parts of Spain is making a generalization, painting hundreds of people with a negative presumption based on a few isolated incidents. That kind of generalization is not far afield from the thinking of the knuckleheads who assume all Asians are Chinese, or that giving someone bad directions and "ching chong" comments are funny.

I live in the area where you felt badly treated. It's true, there are some rude, poorly-educated and xenophobic people here in this very conservative and relatively isolated area -- I was insulted by an old lady just a couple of days ago, for just growing up outside this area!

There is no excuse for racism or xenophobia. There are reasons for it, however: ignorance and fear.
And the final answer to both of those is compassion. With our own positive behavior in their midst, we can give ignorant, fearful people personal experience of the intelligence, patience, kindness, and decency of "those people." Unfortunately, ignorance and fear are addictive, and a whole lot of people will cling to their beliefs despite all evidence to the contrary.

All we can do is walk softly and do our best.

 

[William Marques]

A number of posts not directly related to the question under consideration have been deleted.

 

[Icacos]

This made me smile, as my eldest son is Cruzan, born in St. Croix.
When people there are rude to him, he can just switch into a nice Creole patois, "Heeeeeey, mahn! YOU mad sick! I Cruzan! I eat fish and fungi undah da jumbi tree! I bahn heah!"

Folks do get a lot of mileage out of speaking in the vernacular. Most will admit to understanding it, but many of us would not admit to being able to speak it.

 

[Pelegrin]

I had no idea about this bad behaviour in this area. Sorry to hear abaout that. I wish that in Galicia things are different.
About prejudices, many times I has been as a Spaniard associated abroad to guitars and flamenco and other spanish clichés.

 

[BethC]

I appreciate your sharing your experiences, Sunik, and surely understand why you felt a little fearful and badly treated. I was under the impression from all that I've been reading that there are people fairly predictably within eyesight, but this sounds not to be the case at all if there are stretches where you were alone for hours. I hadn't understood that I'd be trying to predict where those stretches might be and finding people to attach to for long periods. It sounds like what's required is heading out at the same time as everyone else AND doing that from one of the larger albergues (I also hadn't counted on staying every night in a large albergue). This also sounds like there might be a problem stopping to sightsee because it leaves you out-of-phase with the bulk of others on that stretch that day.

 

[Icacos]

When I walked the Francés, I was at any one time with either one, two or three other pilgrims. If I were to walk again at some point, it is likely that I would be doing so alone. I would imagine that, were I to stay behind in a town to sightsee and found myself still alone when it was time to hit the trail again, I would, if I were fearful of continuing on my own, wait at the outskirts of town for some one to walk with. I think most everyone can appreciate the concern some pilgrims have of walking alone, and still other pilgrims have very kindly offered to walk with those who are fearful. I think it might just be a matter of asking another pilgrim if you might accompany him or her or, better still, ask to join a group of pilgrims walking together. I think if you head out of town at a reasonable hour, there is bound to be someone who will be heading out after you.

Once a few summers ago, my daughter and I were heading out on a hike in our local mountains. A lone foreign woman, visiting by herself and wanting to hike too, approached us in the parking lot and asked if she could tag along. She stressed that we didn't have to talk to her, that she just wanted to keep us in sight. We were happy to have her along with us. She also said something about not wanting "to be eaten by wild beasts," which made us laugh.

 

[C clearly]

I was under the impression from all that I've been reading that there are people fairly predictably within eyesight, but this sounds not to be the case at all if there are stretches where you were alone for hours.

I believe Sunik was referring to the Camino del Norte. And she said "There are few lengthy stretches" where you might not see someone for hours. So I doubt that you will have much problem staying within sight of others on the Camino Frances in September-October.

 

[ricitosdeplata]

@Sunik Lee, I'd like to add like others that I regret how you have been treated on the camino. But I do have to say I'm glad you posted this thread. As I have often found, talking about my concerns on the forum may not change my situation, but I have felt better able to face the challenge. How does that saying that go? "A problem shared is a problem halved." I hope this will be true for you and the rest of your trip will be un mejor (better) camino.

 

[BethC]

I believe Sunik was referring to the Camino del Norte. And she said "There are few lengthy stretches" where you might not see someone for hours. So I doubt that you will have much problem staying within sight of others on the Camino Frances in September-October.

Where are you getting that? She's on the Camino Frances as we write.

 

[C clearly]

Where are you getting that?

I looked on the left under her gravatar, where it says "Camino(s) past & future: Camino De Norte (July-Aug 2015)." But now when I check the places she referred to, it does appear that she is on the Camino Frances.

 

[BridgeMan2050]

When you tell someone where you are from and you get a confused stare back, why not simply smile and say, "We come in all colours." That's what I do. I find often people simply don't know, and just need to be educated.

You see, I am Caucasian, but I come from the West Indies, where the population is predominantly dark skinned. When I meet people (even English speaking people), and because I speak with "an accent," the conversation often goes like this:

"Where are you from."
"The West Indies." (puzzled look). Explain further, "The Caribbean."
"Oooh! How long did you live there?"
"I was born there."
"And where were your parents born?"
"They were born there too." (I can trace my ancestry there back to 1792.)
This is where I smile nicely and say, "We come in all colours."

Often, if I'm feeling mischievous and someone asks where I'm from, I'll say, "I'm a West Indian." You should see the confused face then!

"We come in all colours" I really like that!

 

[Simon Shum]

Hi Sunik Lee, I am glad you feel so much better and able to see the various faces of humanity! As an older Chinese living in Canada for over 40 years and travelled different parts of the world, I had my share of similar incidents like what you experienced (instead of calling my name, I was being called “chinito” by an American staff in the American Embassy in Venezuela in the waiting room with 50 other locals, go figure!).

I have walked the Camino Frances, the Porto route, the San Salvador, and the Primitivo in the last three years, and I never did experience anything negative. Anybody that I came across the Camino, I always mentioned where I came from, that I am a Buddhist, walking the Camino, and saying prayers in every church that I came across, and that I teach meditation for free as my volunteer work!

A lot of people wrote about their camino experience as “awakening”, and some other would say the camino experience is “not real”, that soon we will adjust to the real world after we went home, and yet most would say “the real camino begins when the camino ends”. For me, the camino is real, it is like the “utopia”, but the real world is also real as a “dog-eat-dog-world” – exactly the way we make it to be. It I up to us to make heaven, here and now, on earth!

These days, I live my life the same as life in the camino – kind to people, kindness every seconds, respect life and the environment. I try not to have even one negative thought or un-kind thought in my mind. I could feel people around me are doing the same to me. Together we make all of us happier! It really is up to us!

Glad you are positive and hope you have a great Camino experience!

 

[Galuh]

There is only one race, and that is the HUMAN RACE (Baba)

Buen Camino!

 

[Anne C]

I must say Im smiling to myself reading the confusion between color and nationality, Im Irish, My adopted darkskinned Romanian daughter is Irish, her African partner, born in Nigeria is an Irish citizen now and both their children, very dark skinned are Irish. So, it can lead to some confusion at times as you can imagine, particularly when I converse a little with my grandchildren as Gaeilge! I cant resist doing that just to see the look of confusion on peoples faces. Racism exists because of fear and ignorance, as someone already said. My family have been exposed to that at times too.
Im so sorry for your experience Sunik Lee and Im glad you feel better now and hope you enjoy the rest of your Camino

 

[sulu]

I can't comment on the part about being called names, that is unpleasant and only done by ignorant, unpleasant people, unfortunately they can exist anywhere.
Being asked where you are from is very Spanish, it is always the first question they ask; this is because they hold very tightly to where they are from, that being the region their family originated from. They find it very difficult to understand that many of us have mixed roots and can't claim to come from anywhere except a country. I claim to be English, the next question is always 'Where from?' and I cannot answer this, it seems that Spaniards find this very difficult to understand, they are first Spanish (unless they're Catalan) and then they are Galicians or Andaluz or whatever.
I live in a small village in Galicia with a winter population of 25, who are all very welcoming. In August the population is over 100, they come from cities all over Spain and they tend to look at me as if I have just landed from outer space and then they virtually ignore me.
I'm afraid that August does not bring out the best people, many of the people you meet are not resident in the area you are walking through, they are people from the cities who bring their city prejudices to the countryside. Even my local Spanish friends recognize that they are looked down on.
Bars!! I've always been invisible in a bar or pub, ever since I was old enough to go into one, but here I can be invisible in the market or shops, I just assume that the people pushing past me are ignorant and uneducated, a shame for them really.
I hope you can put this behind you and enjoy the rest of the camino.

 

[rgutena]

I was very surprised as I was reading the original post above. Perhaps things have changed considerably over the last 2 years, or perhaps the specific area mentioned by the OP (where I have never been) is, or was, just particularly bad, but as an Asian female pilgrim walking alone, I felt very welcomed in France (last year), Portugal and Spain (this year). Definitely no 'ching cheng chong'. The locals were so kind to me that I actually attributed that to my novelty value! Yes, I lot of people asked whether I was Korean or Japanese, which I am not, but I was not offended by that. When I told them I am Australian, their typical response was surprise but not confusion. Perhaps a little disappointment because I was not as exotic as they thought I was.

 

[Annapolis]

We are Asian (Filipino) but now citizen of USA I want to present an opposite experience in that area that the OP Cited. We were walking from Hospital de Orbigo to Astorga last 16 June 2017 taking the alternate route to Villares de Orbigo when somehow we took a wrong turn and ended following the white arrow all the way to top of the mountain. We don't know where we are but on the end of the trail a car is idling with a young local driving, I asked for directions to Astorga and he was very helpful, despite that after walking 3 km without seing the cathedral I decided to stop in a farm and a local farmer gave me an assurance that 5 km more and we are in Astorga. Taking a break in a town called Santa Roman, 3 km to Astorga the owner of the house came out to greet us and asked if we need any water, reaching the railroad track a local old guy gave us directions on how to go about it, so generally we had a good experience in that area. We are a senior couple doing our second CF, we do get some negative vibes but generally the Locals are very hospitable.

 

[Panzerchua]

This will initially sound unpleasant, but I was in SE Asia as a farang recently and was literally taken LAST out of hundreds of Asians no matter how early I arrived on many occasions, and the transportation officials were often very rude. SE Asia is, of course, not the Camino and I would have expected better treatment of you as a peregrina.

That said, I am truly sorry for your experience and am not looking forward to walking through places with bars and local thugs myself. I'm also concerned because although it is what I'd imagined could be the case, people tend to minimize those things related to the Camino - walking as a female is a totally different thing when it comes to offensiveness/harassment/predatory behavior and taking liberties. You probably know this, but Koreans are doing the Camino in droves related to a book about the Camino that is popular there. Still no reason to assume, though.

I'll be thinking of you during your walk tomorrow and wishing you every happiness for the rest of your Camino. I've thought about completely bypassing that entire area around Astorga. Please post again and say what your experiences are, if you have a moment!

I am SE Asian. You were obviously in Thailand. I am Singaporean. What is obvious to me is that the language barrier impaired your experiences/expectations. I speak rudimentary Thai and Spanish. I confess my Spanish is better. Both countries are open to foreigners if you embrace their language and culture.