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Bed bugs

Veverita

New Member
Time of past OR future Camino
plan for May 2019
I read some comments about bed bugs on Camino Frances which scared me.
I am planning to do it in May this year and I would like to know if bed bugs are a serious problem in albergues and hostels.
Appreciate any advise/informations.
Veverita
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
A blog post about signs of bed bugs:
http://caminosantiago2.blogspot.com/2011/06/dont-let-bedbugs-bite.html

Some bed bug infos:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/bug-bites.49942/

De-bed-bugging at the end of your camino:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/de-bed-bugging-your-camino-gear.40270/

If bed bug bites are a real pain for you depends if you show an allergic reaction. I did not react allergic as I was (probably) bitten by bed bugs (only in one albergue, but in the main season in August ). So it was not painful for me... 'only' the need of de-bed-bugging the clothes and the gear.

Normally at the beginning of the season (like May) bed bugs should be less a problem than later in the season.

And all the pilgrims who were not bitten do not write about it...

So may be this is more important than bed bugs that may scare you:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/calm-down.56386/

Buen camino!
 
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Dont let bedbugs put you off. You can prepare (douse your pack and sleeping bag in Permethrin),be vigilant (check for signs of bugs), and take medications with you to ease the symptoms if you are bitten.

Its likely you wont get bitten, in two Camino's I only got bitten once. and lots of people never get bitten.

If you do get bitten, yes it is a pain dealing with debugging your gear - but in the scheme of things, it wont spoil your camino (unless you have a severe allergic reaction).

What is likely to happen : you will most likely get blisters, sore feet, have trouble getting down from the top bunk, develop the Camino shuffle, put up with snoring at night and maybe even suffer a cold shower or two. In the course of a Camino, bedbugs wont seem that bad.

Read up on what to do if you do encounter them (you dont want to take them home to your house). And go out and enjoy your Camino.
 
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Camino Francés 2015: Never even saw a bedbug.
Camino Frances 2017: Never even saw a bedbug.
Camino del Norte (Oviedo-Sgo) 2018: Never even saw a bedbug.
Camino de Finisterre 2018: Never even saw a bedbug.

Driving to Florida 2018: Packed up and left a motel because several bedbugs jumped out of the phone cradle when I picked it up to call the office for the wifi password.
 
Fortunately, after two Caminos I have experienced no bed bug bites. I simply checked the mattress, as recommended above. I now do that here in the States whenever we stay at a hotel. Interestingly, on our first Camino, we met a fellow pilgrim and she encountered beg bugs in Paris.

Buen Camino
 
I read some comments about bed bugs on Camino Frances which scared me.
I am planning to do it in May this year and I would like to know if bed bugs are a serious problem in albergues and hostels.
Appreciate any advise/informations.
Veverita
Don't be afraid, bed bugs are domestic animals on any Camino. I have met with them on Camino Frances 2017 and on Camino Portuguese 2018. I suggest to you to sleep on up bed of the bed bunk if you want to avoid them😀.
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
There is certainly a chance of encountering bedbugs on Camino. The same is unfortunately true anywhere these days, but it is especially true of places that see a lot of people passing through. This could be albergues and hostels. It could be Casa Rurales and hotels. I never personally encountered any on my Caminos. I have heard that there are less of them in the spring than the autumn, if that's of any help.
 
I read some comments about bed bugs on Camino Frances which scared me.
I am planning to do it in May this year and I would like to know if bed bugs are a serious problem in albergues and hostels.
Appreciate any advise/informations.
Veverita

Hi Veverita, welcome to the forum. If Bedbugs are the only thing you are worried about on the Camino then you can relax.

Take the sensible precautions that other members have highlighted and you'll be fine. And if you do have an encounter be sure to also follow the sound advice already published here and to inform the Hospitalero/as.

And if you'd like a bit of balance try googling Bed Bugs New York Hotels, or Bed Bugs Airplanes, or Bedbugs London Undergound. And then remember how many people don't get bitten.

buen camino
 
I treat my sleeping bag, a thin fitted sheet I bring, and my backpack with Permathrin and I check the mattresses wherever I stay.
2015 Frances- never saw a bedbug
2016 Norte/Primitivo- saw 3 bedbugs
2017 Frances- saw 2 bedbugs
2018 LePuy- saw 1 bedbug
As of yet, never been bitten to my knowledge. I mostly walk in spring.
 
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I read some comments about bed bugs on Camino Frances which scared me.
I am planning to do it in May this year and I would like to know if bed bugs are a serious problem in albergues and hostels.
Appreciate any advise/informations.
Veverita


I walked in September 2017 and became infested with bed bugs, not just once, but like 6 different times. I would have to find a laundromat to launder my bag and every piece of clothing not to mention deal with the bites. Since then I've learned a few things.
1. Some people are allergic or sensitive to the bites, some don't react at all.
2. Bugs are attracted differently to each person. I was a bug magnet, my friend who stayed with me in each albergue never once got bitten.
3. There are more bed bugs on the Camino in September vs. May. Its at the end of the season so they've spread and bred for the last 6 months. You should be better off in May.
4. There are more bed bugs on the Camino that in other places. I traveled for 2 years, globally, and I never got hit so bad as when I was on the Camino. Think about it, you've got 1000's of bodies moving from bed to bed each day. Its a bed bug paradise.
5. Treat your bag with a pesticide and sleep in it. The bugs will not bother you. I wish I had done this 2 years ago.

Sleep tight, and don't let the bed bugs bite. And be sure to go! I am planning on doing the Camino again. One of the best experiences of my life.

Stacy
 
I read some comments about bed bugs on Camino Frances which scared me.
I am planning to do it in May this year and I would like to know if bed bugs are a serious problem in albergues and hostels.
Appreciate any advise/informations.
Veverita
Please do not be scared by some of the exaggerated postings that appear in this forum from time to time. When I first looked at this forum a year or so ago I thought I was glad I never read it before I walked my first Camino as I would have been quite overly concerned about matters like bedbugs, just to name one. It's best referenced to for tips on travel to and from the Caminos and equipment selection. Some nice photos of the Caminos on here, too.
I can only relate my experiences (and my cousin's and one good friend's) on the Caminos Frances and Portugues.
No bedbugs in any of the albergues we stayed in. Different paths, different years, different albergues.
Walk the Camino without fear of anything. Why would you?
 
Thanks for the informations, honestly I almost gave up the plans for Camino because there is nothing that could scare me except for an infestations with bed bugs. I will follow the advises and try to stay positive.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Please do not be scared by some of the exaggerated postings that appear in this forum from time to time. When I first looked at this forum a year or so ago I thought I was glad I never read it before I walked my first Camino as I would have been quite overly concerned about matters like bedbugs, just to name one. It's best referenced to for tips on travel to and from the Caminos and equipment selection. Some nice photos of the Caminos on here, too.
I can only relate my experiences (and my cousin's and one good friend's) on the Caminos Frances and Portugues.
No bedbugs in any of the albergues we stayed in. Different paths, different years, different albergues.
Walk the Camino without fear of anything. Why would you?

Hi, will all due respect some of the postings are not exaggerated. Some people get bitten so badly it's kind of traumatic for them. While it's great that you have not encountered them, please respect the experiences of those who have.

Veverita, don't let BBs put you off. While they're awful, the rest of the camino will be the most amazing experience :)
 
I read some comments about bed bugs on Camino Frances which scared me.
I am planning to do it in May this year and I would like to know if bed bugs are a serious problem in albergues and hostels.
Appreciate any advise/informations.
Veverita

Hi! You’ve already been given good advice above but you could also search the forum for previous threads on bed bugs, there are plenty!!! Mostly about how to deal with it if you are bitten and above all how not to bring them home. That’s the most important.
Check posts from @SYates and @C clearly (apologies to the others I have forgotten), I remember the advice was spot on.

I have walked many, many kms and I have only been bitten ONCE. OK, it was unpleasant (very!) - I discovered I was allergic to the bites - but .... it isn’t life threatening :) The other pilgrims I was walking with only suffered mild discomfort, just like from mosquito bites...

Those bugs can be found all over the world, not just on the Camino so....
my take on this is: take care but don’t worry! It may never happen ;)
 
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The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
Because of hearing so much about bed bugs in the albergues, in 2013 I chose to buy a sheet that I am comfortable using when I stay in albergues; it's called the InsectShield Silk Liner. There have been ample studies about the safe use of permethrin on clothing. On the https://www.epa.gov/insect-repellents/repellent-treated-clothing site there is plenty information on the use of permethrin.

Ultreïa!

I think it is important to distinguish between insects which are repelled by insect repellents and permethrin, vs the action of Permethrin as an insecticide. Given this thread, hopefully your post can be used to help with clarifying a few things.

The InsectShield link does not state what the effective ingredient is in their product, but given that it claims an effectiveness rate for up to 70 washings, it is likely Permethrin. The fact that the manufacturer claims that it is safe at all ages also supports that supposition. Also, it limits its claims of repellency effectiveness to only mosquitoes, fleas, and ticks, but does not include bedbugs, which also suggests, along with the other claims, that the ingredient is Permethrin and not DEET.

[Edit --- In another location on their website, Insect Shield does state that they use Permethrin for their products.]

As an aside, the website states that rather than silk, the product is 100% cotton and weighs just shy of 1 pound / 454 grams.

That is an important distinction, because while Permethrin will kill bedbugs, it does not repel them or keep them from biting, like it does for ticks or fleas -- although for ticks and fleas Permethrin is still not as effective as DEET. The killing action of Permethrin in bedbugs is not instantaneous. So, while it can be effective for bedbug control by an albergue or other lodging, for a pilgrim sleeping it will not kill a bedbug rapidly enough to keep the critter from its blood meal.

Before I retired from our local public health district, one of my fun (sarcasm) jobs was helping folks deal with things such as head lice and infrequently, bedbugs. Developing written protocols based on the most recent research, which would periodically change, was something I would do in order to give as handouts.

There is a saying that can help us all to understand a bit more why bedbugs bite some using certain 'treatments', while others seem to stay free from bedbug interactions using those same treatments, which includes Permethrin. "Correlation does NOT equal causation". Nor does correlation equal effectiveness.

While it is known scientifically that Permethrin does not act as a repellent for bedbugs, there are numerous anecdotal claims made by Camino walkers who say Permethrin was used and no bedbugs were encountered. This ignores the fact that far more folks, while NOT using Permethrin do not encounter bedbugs. So the most likely explanation to the seeming correlation of no bedbugs while using Permethrin is that there would have been no bedbug encounter anyway without the Permethrin.

This NCBI published study's abstract helps to underscore the above. One would need to subscribe to Medline in order to be able to access and read the full study.

I do not recommend folks use DEET, although it will repel bedbugs. I use DEET while backpacking with heavy mosquito swarms, but not under other circumstances. DEET is of limited durability, it can hurt eyes and mucous membranes with accidental contact, and can damage some synthetic materials. If it is to be used, it is best applied to clothing, and needs to be replenished every 6 to 12 hours.
 
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Veverita, don't let BBs put you off. While they're awful, the rest of the camino will be the most amazing experience :)

That sounds like being bitten by a bedbug is a guarantee. A 100% chance? As though being bitten by a bedbug is a side effect. Part of the price to be paid for walking the Camino.
Of course, we all know that is not true. Being bitten by a bedbug, encountering them in an albergue is a possibility, not even a probability.
 
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That sounds like being bitten by a bedbug is a guarantee. A 100% chance? As though being bitten by a bedbug is a side effect. Part of the price to be paid for walking the Camino.
Of course, we all know that is not true. Being bitten by a bedbug, encountering them in an albergue is a possibility, not even a probability.

TBH it's a pilgrimage so yeah maybe a price to pay, don't know really. As for probability? I've been bitten on both of my Caminos but i am a sample size of only one. Not really representative of the general population.

I'm just trying to keep it kind here.
 
I read some comments about bed bugs on Camino Frances which scared me.
I am planning to do it in May this year and I would like to know if bed bugs are a serious problem in albergues and hostels.
Appreciate any advise/informations.
Veverita


I have walked the French Camino 4 times staying in mostly Albergues and have never had bed bugs. Don’t worry about it.
 
There’s a big difference between worrying and being prepared. Anyone who says bed bugs are not a problem on the Camino Francés may be describing his or her personal experience, but is not describing the reality there. Apparently bed bugs don’t affect everyone, so if you haven’t had a problem, count your lucky stars but don’t suggest that that’s the norm. Bed bugs are an issue and a reality. I have been bitten at least three times over 20 years. And I have seen people with such bad reactions that they had to end their caminos. I am not worried about it happening again, but I will be prepared if it does.
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
I read some comments about bed bugs on Camino Frances which scared me.
I am planning to do it in May this year and I would like to know if bed bugs are a serious problem in albergues and hostels.
Appreciate any advise/informations.
Veverita
Bed bugs happen but not often. Once they've been located, the albergue is closed, cleaned and inspected before reopening. May will be my 7th Camino and I have yet to have a problem. Most importantly, when you arrive at your albergue, inspect your bunk especially around the mattress seems. Once someone has an issue with bed bugs, the word gets out quicker then the speed of sound.
I once met 2 gentleman who were eaten up by bugs but they got them from a hotel arranged by their tour group. Dont worry. Inspect your bunk before laying down and never put your backpack on your bunk.
Buen Camino. Maybe we'll meet in may!!
 
I believe in being prepared. I spray the outside of my sleeping bag and my back pack with Permithrin. I check every mattress that I am going to sleep on, this includes hotels.
Fortunately, a lot of the albergues are switching to metal frames and bedbug proof mattresses and pillows.
 
I read some comments about bed bugs on Camino Frances which scared me.
I am planning to do it in May this year and I would like to know if bed bugs are a serious problem in albergues and hostels.
Appreciate any advise/informations.
Veverita
I have walked on the Camino at many different times of the year ,and in the warm months have experienced bedbugs twice . Both times i bieve i got bedbugs in municipal albergues . My first experience ,i was agast.itch & creeping . I could put everything in the clothes dryer ,that kills them. I put everything in a black garbage bag and left it in the sun for an hour.i wore a nylon t shirt and commando shorts and ate a sandwich. Well i learned that if your spray everythin before you go with permethrin. Don't rince and when dry do it again.its natural ,smells ok and wull last 5_6 washings. Since then ,no problems. You can check around the bed frame before you unpack. If you see even one , move on. Darrell
 
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I have walked on the Camino at many different times of the year ,and in the warm months have experienced bedbugs twice . Both times i bieve i got bedbugs in municipal albergues . My first experience ,i was agast.itch & creeping . I could put everything in the clothes dryer ,that kills them. I put everything in a black garbage bag and left it in the sun for an hour.i wore a nylon t shirt and commando shorts and ate a sandwich. Well i learned that if your spray everythin before you go with permethrin. Don't rince and when dry do it again.its natural ,smells ok and wull last 5_6 washings. Since then ,no problems. You can check around the bed frame before you unpack. If you see even one , move on. Darrell

The heat treatment does work well for killing, and the Permethrin treatment will help to kill bedbugs that end up as passengers -- as long as they haven't developed a tolerance, which we are seeing much more frequently now than a decade ago. Much the same thing has happened with head lice treatments which in many parts of the world are next to useless.

Permethrin will not, however, repel bedbugs. Folks who have used Permethrin to spray sleeping bags and clothing can still be bitten.
 
Take all the necessary procedures prior to your trip, keep your bag off your bed. As a general rule of thumb, municipal albergues are usually proactive and on top of taking care of issues surrounding bed bugs (meaning closing off rooms/floors for sanitation; taking suspected pilgrim and cleaning their belongings and having them shower).

This past CF 2018, 5 of my companions got bit, I was fine.

I look at bed bugs like mosquitoes, not really a big deal unless you have severe reactions to the bites. It’s just a pain to take the time to wash all your things and throw them into a dryer. Some look at it like the plague... I myself not so much, just a nuisance, thats minuscule in the entire scheme of things.

HYOH
 
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I do not recommend folks use DEET, although it will repel bedbugs. I use DEET while backpacking with heavy mosquito swarms, but not under other circumstances. DEET is of limited durability, it can hurt eyes and mucous membranes with accidental contact, and can damage some synthetic materials. If it is to be used, it is best applied to clothing, and needs to be replenished every 6 to 12 hours.

Davebugg has pretty much nailed it, but I would like to comment about DEET a little more.

In the military we splashed on DEET like it was water, totally unaware of its risks (we were only 20 or so and, being immortal, did not care anyway.) I did notice that it 'dissolved' the plastic face of my watch and made plastic pens sticky if I had DEET on my hands. God knows what the DEET concentration was in the product we were using.

DEET is considered to be safe 'if you follow the instructions', but, as for many 'safe' products, the instructions are often bent in actual practice, thereby increasing the risk. I always cringe a bit when I see DEET over-applied, just to be sure.

There is a heap of information online (of unverified quality) about the use of DEET by women. It's worth reading to at least learn about the issues, but make up your own mind.

I am not anti-DEET in all circumstances, but one must weigh up risks and benefits. If DEET stops you getting malaria or dengue fever, the risks are definitely worth taking, but if there are no real risks apart from the temporary discomfort of insect bites in non-tropical environments, I personally would not use it.

Bob M
DEET Survivor;)
 
Thanks for the informations, honestly I almost gave up the plans for Camino because there is nothing that could scare me except for an infestations with bed bugs. I will follow the advises and try to stay positive.
Key thing is treating your sleeping items (bag, blanket and sheets) we stored ours in bottom of pack that was also treated. I’m glad you have more co fixence now. There are so many people along the way that will help you if something happens no matter what it is. How lovely the goodness of others supports pilgrims so well. Spend some time on YouTube learning about blisters and treatments too. Fear the hotspots and act immediately. We bought an ikea bag to pack our backpack in for our flight to and from the Camino. We treated that with permethrin spray too and everything went in stages from outside the house straight to the washer and dryer. Backpacks were placed in black plastic bags and kept in hot sun for a week. When on the Camino it doesn’t hurt to run your sleeping gear through the hot dryer once a week even if you don’t wash it. Heat kills the bugs.
 
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Davebugg has pretty much nailed it, but I would like to comment about DEET a little more.

In the military we splashed on DEET like it was water, totally unaware of its risks (we were only 20 or so and, being immortal, did not care anyway.) I did notice that it 'dissolved' the plastic face of my watch and made plastic pens sticky if I had DEET on my hands. God knows what the DEET concentration was in the product we were using.

DEET is considered to be safe 'if you follow the instructions', but, as for many 'safe' products, the instructions are often bent in actual practice, thereby increasing the risk. I always cringe a bit when I see DEET over-applied, just to be sure.

There is a heap of information online (of unverified quality) about the use of DEET by women. It's worth reading to at least learn about the issues, but make up your own mind.

I am not anti-DEET in all circumstances, but one must weigh up risks and benefits. If DEET stops you getting malaria or dengue fever, the risks are definitely worth taking, but if there are no real risks apart from the temporary discomfort of insect bites in non-tropical environments, I personally would not use it.

Bob M
DEET Survivor;)

DEET is wonderful stuff. In Vietnam it was appropriately and affectionately referred to as Jungle Juice :)
 
Statistics should be a compulsory subject at school. I often hear stuff like "I did X and did not experience Y, so X definitely was the reason I did not experience Y."

Maybe, maybe not.:rolleyes:

The Camino was my first really long walk, and it sometimes amazed me that I would be walking through a village and suddenly met a camino acquaintance coming out of a cafe or whatever. We would stop and gape at each other. A few moments earlier or later and we would have never met. "It's another camino miracle!":D

But I got to thinking (sometimes I reflect on philosophical and other such matters as I trudge along) and soon realized that camino coincidences like unexpected meetings are statistically to be expected.

We may think that our caminos are unique experiences - and they are in many important ways - but they are also highly regimented experiences if observed in the mass - like God looking down on the daily ebb and flow of countless people trudging along the same path, all on the same mission. We stop at the same towns because over the years all guidebooks have converged on similar daily stages. The route has become standardised as well. Our daily routines are basically the same and we set out at roughly the same time each day.

So it is hardly surprising that all sorts of marvellous coincidences will occur.

Sorry for the off-topic diversion. It has nothing to do with bed bugs - or has it?o_O

Bob M
 
St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
Don't be afraid, bed bugs are domestic animals on any Camino. I have met with them on Camino Frances 2017 and on Camino Portuguese 2018. I suggest to you to sleep on up bed of the bed bunk if you want to avoid them😀.


Sleeping in the upper bunk to avoid bed bugs is like being “a little bit pregnant” 🤣🤣🤣🤣. In seriousness, if you are worried, which isn’t unreasonable, do a bed check at each place you stay. I literally slept next to someone who was bitten and had an allergic reaction, I never got so much as a bite while everyone around me got bitten. I still “had” them though and took all the precautions as my friends. We washed all our stuff and dried it on high heat for 80 mins. The reality is that you can get them anywhere, they hop around easily. You can get them on a plane or at a luxury hotel. I’d say treat your bag, do bed checks, but you’ll probably tire of bed checks once you keep not finding them
 
I was ironic, due I have bitten by the bed bugs on both Caminos while I was sleeping on lower bunk. My wife choosen upper bunk and she never been bitten by the bed bugs. It seems that bed bugs prefer male peregrinos on lower bunk😀
 
St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
I was terrified of bed bugs before I went. I hoped and prayed that I didn't get bit. Alas I did get 3 rounds of bed bugs. The last bout was the last sleep before Santiago and I got over 100 bites! It was October 5th. My husband above me on the bunk didn't get one bite.

If you break it down: the itch is just a bit worse than a mosquito and lasts about 2xs as long. You can get an antihistamine from the pharmacy to help with the itching. It's a pain to have to wash and dry your clothes and treat your backpack (my backpack was accidentally thrown out in Leon when I put it in a black garbage bag in the sun and head to the laundromat).

You can't feel the bugs bite you because the inject an anesthetic (I believe) and this is what your body creates the itching sensation as a reaction to. So in a way that's good because it doesn't hurt. All in all it's just a total pain in the ass. Really nothing to be worried about. Definitely not something to stop you from going. Just pick a time when there should be less bed bugs (which it sounds like you are).
 
I read some comments about bed bugs on Camino Frances which scared me.
I am planning to do it in May this year and I would like to know if bed bugs are a serious problem in albergues and hostels.
Appreciate any advise/informations.
Veverita
Would advise the “not seriously bitten” thread.
It might not give you much useful advice but a few giggles to take your mind off it!
Why worry about something that hasnt happened...some people get a cold or sprain an ankle (and most don’t) on Camino! There is a lot of advice on this forum to minimise or mitigate any problem that might exist (I understand that lavender spray isn’t very effective..if at all).
Off topic a bit..I have found the quinine in tonic water quite effective in minimising mosquito bites (which I am susceptible to)..that’s my reason for a daily dose of gin and tonics..well that’s my excuse anyway!!!
And as one bed bug said to the other...the Camino provides!
 
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I personally see bedbugs as totally different than mosquitos. A mosquito flies around and lands on you quickly, sucks your blood in seconds, then takes off. A bedbug on the other hand, slowly comes out of hiding, looks around, smells your breathing, and slowly joins you in your sleeping bag, crawling around until he finds the sweet spot, then digs in deep for who knows how long, enjoying the feast. After a full tummy, and biting up to a dozen places, he can barely drag himself back to his hiding place, waiting for his next victim in 24 hours.
This is just my personal opinion of what I envision a bedbug to behave like. I speak for no one else.
 
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What about october, november? Should I do something to prevent their presence during fall? Thanks! :)
 
What about october, november? Should I do something to prevent their presence during fall? Thanks!

- Never put your pack on a bed
- Leave you boots / walking shoes in the lobby or shoe rack
- Check the mattress and pillow before you make up your bed

The presence of bed bugs has little to do with the quality of the albergue, and more to do with the habits of the people staying there.
 
What about october, november? Should I do something to prevent their presence during fall? Thanks! :)

If I were you, I would
1) Spray the outside of my pack with permethrin
2) Spray the outside of my sleeping bag with permethrin
3) Learn to recognize the signs of bedbugs (see my blog post and others on bedbugs)
4)Learn what to do IF you DO get bedbugs
5) Be sure you take precautions not to carry them back home with you

In my experience, you are more likely to see bugs in the autumn than in the spring, so yes, I would be concerned (but not paranoid) in October.
 
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