• For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here.
    (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation)

Bedbug Question! Settle our debate!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hamilton-Arvisais

New Member
Time of past OR future Camino
{2016}
Hello all,

My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?

Thanks!
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
I have spent more than 80 nights in May/June in around 70 different Albergues in the last 2 years. I prefer the Municipal, Parrochial and low cost Private Albergues and have never come across any bed bugs. Maybe they are a Camino myth. :rolleyes:
 
New Original Camino Gear Designed Especially with The Modern Peregrino In Mind!
Hello all,

My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?

Thanks!
Be careful. Permethrin is carcinogenic - if you ingest it. You would need to drink about five kg of the Saywers spray product to even start to get to the level required to be a concern. Provided you avoid it coming into contact with moist areas of your body, it is safe to use, so don't use it on underwear or gear that is likely to come into contact with you eyes, nose, mouth etc.

If you don't want to use a synthetic chemical such as permethrin, there are other preparations available using compounds such as pyrethrim and essential oils. These are generally not as effective or long lasting as permethrin.

As for silk - I don't think there is any evidence that silk has any repellent properties, and it is certainly not an insecticide.
 
As I'll be In The Camino In a few weeks today I went to thre exterminator to purchase permetryne. They once again advised against it. When I asked why could buy clothese pre treated with It the y basically said "The FDA" Will approve just about everything." I pushed saying that Canadian government websites mention It sprayed on clothes It was no, no, can't be. So here is one such link: http://travel.gc.ca/travelling/health-safety/insect-bite.

What I did learn is that the stuff that comes In a spray can, what I used last Time, is only for kill on contact and steps being effective within a few minutes after It is dry. Guess I got lucky last Time not being bitten. The stuff I bought, In a speak bottle, Will last about 3 weeks. I Will once again spray my backpack and The tule to cover The mattress.
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
Bedbugs love silk. It's so soft on their tiny feet. And it makes no noise so they can attack without waking you. :p

Permethrin is sprayed on the outside of your sleeping bag not on your skin. Yes, it is poison but so is sugar in the amounts most people eat it. And for cancer causing products look no further than your fragranced laundry detergents, perfumes, lotions, creams, and ingredients in the back of the fast food and packaged food you eat. And for heavens sakes, avoid bacon.

Learn to spot bedbug sign and if you choose, use permethrin as an extra precaution.

Those who say they have not been bitten have just won the lottery. Ask those who HAVE been bitten if there are bedbugs. For some it is no worse than a mosquito bite. On others I've seen welts the size of a quarter with itching that will drive you mad.

For me the biggest concern is taking them back home, an expense that can quickly run into the thousands of dollars.

Don't be paranoid but don't be ignorant. Learn to spot the little buggers and take precautions. They've already begun to hatch and bite and it's early in the season.

I'm on my phone and can't post a link but if you Google 'Annie's Simple Life Bedbugs' you will find my blog on how to spot them with plenty of photos.

Buen Camino.
 
€2,-/day will present your project to thousands of visitors each day. All interested in the Camino de Santiago.
Hello all,

My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?

Thanks!
I've successfully used tea tree oil as a bedbug repellent. A couple of drops in your pack and onto your sleeping bag before you pack it each day works like a charm. Tea tree oil also doubles up as an antiseptic for grazes and blisters.
 
Bedbugs love silk. It's so soft on their tiny feet. And it makes no noise so they can attack without waking you. :p

Permethrin is sprayed on the outside of your sleeping bag not on your skin. Yes, it is poison but so is sugar in the amounts most people eat it. And for cancer causing products look no further than your fragranced laundry detergents, perfumes, lotions, creams, and ingredients in the back of the fast food and packaged food you eat. And for heavens sakes, avoid bacon.

Learn to spot bedbug sign and if you choose, use permethrin as an extra precaution.

Those who say they have not been bitten have just won the lottery. Ask those who HAVE been bitten if there are bedbugs. For some it is no worse than a mosquito bite. On others I've seen welts the size of a quarter with itching that will drive you mad.

For me the biggest concern is taking them back home, an expense that can quickly run into the thousands of dollars.

Don't be paranoid but don't be ignorant. Learn to spot the little buggers and take precautions. They've already begun to hatch and bite and it's early in the season.

I'm on my phone and can't post a link but if you Google 'Annie's Simple Life Bedbugs' you will find my blog on how to spot them with plenty of photos.

Buen Camino.
Is it possible to buy permethrin in St Jean Pied de Port?
Also, thanks for your blog post. It's very informative. I wonder if it is trickier to see the signs of bedbugs on the plastic covered mattresses?
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
At the risk of stirring the hornet's nest: Hamilton, there are many non-toxic options on the market, as well. Google something like, "Non-toxic bed bug formula."

Buen Camino!
 
We had never encountered them ...or been in an albergue or or other accomondations that others reported them.
We always treat sleeping bag, liner, pack and sleep in clothes with permethrin.

We had become very lax in looking for signs when we arrived.

But...in mid January we saw them crawling on the sheets in two different places.
We were not bitten. Both had clean white sheets that made the bugs easy to spot.

We were not using sleep sacks or sleeping bags as one was a very nice hotel and the other a private room in a private albergue that did not want to open the dorm for few people.

Actually, I had thought that it was accepted that the critters hibernate in the winter.
Obviously this is not the case.
We will now continue to carefully treat everything and go back to investigating when we arrive.
 
A guide to speaking Spanish on the Camino - enrich your pilgrim experience.
Hmm... It's strange how many people have no contact with bb. at all. On my Camino in September and October I've been bitten frequently. There are some albergues where you can clearly see that the owners do nothing against bb.
I think the best advice is to learn how to spot them and the signs - and then leave that albergue.
As to sleeping bags: The bites I had were on face and arms up until the last few days, when I had some on my feet - so they obviously crawl into the bag.
I didn't use any chemical sprays but would certainly think about a treated sheet for my next time on the Camino(s).
See images for bb. + the "signs" :)

cu,
Volker0861.jpg 0862.jpg
 
I will happily use permethrin on my sleeping sheet, sleeping bag and backpack, secure in the knowledge that bedbugs prefer to bite those who put their faith in essential oils and magic incantations....

Not that permethrin is the be all and end all, there is increasing evidence of bedbug resistance. Direct application of heat is the best killer.
 
But let ask, keeping my conversation with The exterminator yesterday, do you use the spray van or The spray bottle permetryne?
 
St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
I finally--FINALLY!--saw a bedbug on my last trip, from which I returned three weeks ago. I immediately contacted @C clearly who was also walking to get advice!

Ultimately, I slept in tights and long-sleeves, with gloves and socks, after spraying down the bed with DEET.

I had also covered my bed with my trusty reflective emergency blanket. Slept like a baby after initial panic.

Oh, yes---packed my pack up and set it on the toilet (I was staying in a pension).
 
I soak my sleeping sheet and bag in permethrin (bought from a hiking store) and then hang them outside to dry. Once dry there is no smell or apparent residue. My backpack I spray with ant killer.....which happens to be permethrin.
 
Ideal pocket guides for during & after your Camino. Each weighs only 1.4 oz (40g)!
Has anyone ever asked the proprietors of the very clean, bug-free albergues if they do anything to keep their establishments bug-free? My guess is that we are being exposed to these chemicals whether we like it or not. Once when my walking companion and I emerged from our spotlessly clean private room with en suite, we encountered the hospitalero in the hall. He immediately took a canister, with nozzle attached, off the wall, went into the room we had just vacated, emerged two seconds later, closed the door to said room and replaced the canister and nozzle on the wall. I had to wonder what was in that canister.
 
.....................
Several major clothing manufacturers have lines of clothing that contain permethrin. If their lawyers thought there was a liability, they would drop the line. Properly applied, permethrin is safe!!..............
Our favourite clothing maufacturer has started putting 'Insectguard' (permethrin) in some of their garments. We will be looking carefully at their future products and will not be buying any that will have contact with sweaty skin which have permethrin bonded into the fabric . They might just have lost 2 customers.
Sheets/bags are a different issue.
 
Hello all,

My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?

Thanks!

I've been bedbug-bitten on each of the three caminos I've walked and have seen some terrible sights of infected bites. I wouldn't put permethrin next to my skin, but nor would I stay in an albergue again without a treated mattress cover.
 
3rd Edition. More content, training & pack guides avoid common mistakes, bed bugs etc
Hello all,

My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?

Thanks!

Mercifully no BB encounters on 4 wks of camino lodgings (albergue, pensao, hotel) - BUT .... if they are around, they leave horrid traces and I had to deal w/ many days/weeks of painful bites.
My successful low-tech solution was: sheets of newspaper between mattress and cotton sheet.
in my teens i travelled many months in ceylon where i first encountered those bb's (bloody buggers) - and i believe it was fellow traveller who clued me in w/ that newspaper trick. after that the problem ended.
They also hid in those rattan/wicker seat/furniture. So i always had a newspaper between bum/seat.
they are light-shy apparently, but will emerge from their hiding places and scurry in all directions when you remove/lift the mattress and perhaps shine a torch into the dark corners of bed frame.
if in doubt or finding any traces - i'd consider moving on to bb free lodgings.
buen camino!
 
As I have said on here before, be choosy in your choice of accommodations, be they an albergue of any type or private rooms. I always did and have over 100 days and nights on the CF with never having seen a bedbug or been bitten by one. Also I never heard stories of fellow pilgrims on the Camino at the same time encountering them in albergues I had just stayed at. There is a grapevine of sorts when you do the CF. Word gets around about everything and everyone, ha ha.
I only stay in albergues that pass my inspection, especially in regards to the mattresses (have to be rubber or vinyl covered/encased) and bed construction. I won't hesitate to go somewhere else if the place looks like potential bedbug heaven. I got no problem eating the 5-8 euros I dropped on the place.
 
secure in the knowledge that bedbugs prefer to bite those who put their faith in essential oils and magic incantations....
And where do you come by such "knowledge," pray tell?
 
Technical backpack for day trips with backpack cover and internal compartment for the hydration bladder. Ideal daypack for excursions where we need a medium capacity backpack. The back with Air Flow System creates large air channels that will keep our back as cool as possible.

€83,-
I have gotten to the point where I am entertained by the contrary statements in the bedbugs threads.

Bedbugs certainly are common but individual reactions are the critical factor. Anyone who claims extended periods on the Camino without encounters is simply not allergic to them or is not attractive to them. I seem to be both! I am bitten, on average, every 3 weeks on the camino even though I inspect every place and have never seen signs of them. Most of the places are immaculate. My companions do not get bitten but they have no other explanation when they see the nasty welts that I get.

So... treat your stuff (I am moving to DEET), use a big protective bag for your pack at night, and be very paranoid when you get home - whether you have "encountered" them or not. Silk is pointless since they will still get you on the exposed areas unless (maybe) you use DEET there.

If you turn out to be allergic to bedbugs, use antihistamine and continue the precautions.

I have to say that bedbugs are the single biggest negative of my Caminos, and I have no definitive solution.
 
I think the best advice is to learn how to spot them and the signs - and then leave that albergue.

Yes, my advice too. And I followed it on the VdlP last year and it worked.
Fingers crossed for this year ;)
 
A guide to speaking Spanish on the Camino - enrich your pilgrim experience.
But killing the bedbug? Wow....the ONE that I saw was doomed from the moment I saw it. I used my Brierley Guide and just totally walloped the chiton right out of it. Interestingly, it did not die easily, and believe me, I was in total kill mode....
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
Yes, my advice too. And I followed it on the VdlP last year and it worked.
Fingers crossed for this year ;)
It is good to inspect. I always do it. But you most likely won't see signs unless there is a serious infestation. I just resent (a bit o_O) the implication that I get bitten because I don't inspect properly.
 
I'm sure I have never even been bitten by one, and I would know if I had been whether I was "allergic" to them or not.
It may be because I have never carried a sleeping bag or liner on any of my Caminos, a lot of times just sleeping on top of the mattress with a small fleece blanket under me or I use the blankets provided by the albergue. I don't know. I just know that I have never been bitten by one.
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
It is good to inspect. I always do it. But you most likely won't see signs unless there is a serious infestation. I just resent (a bit o_O) the implication that I get bitten because I don't inspect properly.

You are clearly (ahem) ice cream as far as biting bugs are concerned. So am I, though I wasn't bitten on my first three Caminos, nor my last two.
 
I
Mercifully no BB encounters on 4 wks of camino lodgings (albergue, pensao, hotel) - BUT .... if they are around, they leave horrid traces and I had to deal w/ many days/weeks of painful bites.
My successful low-tech solution was: sheets of newspaper between mattress and cotton sheet.
in my teens i travelled many months in ceylon where i first encountered those bb's (bloody buggers) - and i believe it was fellow traveller who clued me in w/ that newspaper trick. after that the problem ended.
They also hid in those rattan/wicker seat/furniture. So i always had a newspaper between bum/seat.
they are light-shy apparently, but will emerge from their hiding places and scurry in all directions when you remove/lift the mattress and perhaps shine a torch into the dark corners of bed frame.
if in doubt or finding any traces - i'd consider moving on to bb free lodgings.
buen camino!
I'm not sure what newspaper would do? Are the bugs too interested in reading the news to bite??? :p
 
Join our full-service guided tour and let us convert you into a Pampered Pilgrim!
But killing the bedbug? Wow....the ONE that I saw was doomed from the moment I saw it. I used my Brierley Guide and just totally walloped the chiton right out of it. Interestingly, it did not die easily, and believe me, I was in total kill mode....
This made me laugh out loud. I can see you transforming, complete with Shogun outfit and a long sword!
 
It is good to inspect. I always do it. But you most likely won't see signs unless there is a serious infestation. I just resent (a bit o_O) the implication that I get bitten because I don't inspect properly.
Of course not. If someone has just brought the bugs in, there won't be much to inspect FOR. And they are often found in clean places because that is where infected pilgrims often run. A friend of mine manages a very upscale hotel chain and he says they are a regular problem.

I hate chemicals but will continue to spray my bag, my pack, to inspect for sign I can SEE , to spray my bed, and to pray the little pests stay away. That's all one can do.

And for those who believe many albergues don't spray the rooms and beds, you could be in denial. I imagine it's part of the routine in many. So you could be being exposed to insecticide whether you like it or not.
 
maybe this conversation is suitable for a small request: the use of protective chemicals (permethrin) means let us be considerate to others. I experienced one afternoon after walking and rest in albergue in my bed (half asleep). It came a group of pilgrims hung up things, very extensively sprayed his beds near my and quickly withdrew to fresh air. It took some time I noted that the cloud around me is poison. I would appreciate if I was warned to avoid inhalation permethrin in large quantity.
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
Permethrin is not usually in insect sprays (except for agricultural or horticultural use), it is more likely what he was using was pyrethrum (such as Clako).
 
and facts.
Kanga, Studying insects, and I suppose how to kill them, is indeed important work (unless you are the bug). I contend that non-toxic formulas are -- and shall remain -- an option for those people wishing to avoid carcinogens, such as Hamilton-Arvisais.
Additionally, I do take it personally when terms like "snake oil" and "magic incantations" are used to refute my perspective. Perhaps I should develop thicker skin, by applying carcinogens;-)
Then again, I've never been biten by a bed bug, a fact, never soaked my clothes in or sprayed my pack with carcinogens. Maybe my skin is already thick enough, at least for attacks of the bed bug variety.
Perhaps the best thing I have read in this thread is what C clearly said about some people not being allergic or attractive to bed bugs. Seems there may be some fact there too. I wonder why that is. Maybe I eat more garlic than others, or some other intake, or maybe it's just DNA. Who knows for sure? My wife has gone backpacking with me and been covered by ticks, when I had none. Begs the question, do I eat more garlic than her? does the fact that I drink red wine and she white wine make all the difference. God only knows.

The fact remains that there are options out there on the market (many of them), no matter where you studied. Use whatever your own sensibilities can handle.

Respectfully,
 
Permethrin has not been determined to be a carcinogen, so there are some errors of fact in some posts. It has been determined to be safe for humans when handled and applied as directed. It has not been shown to be a bed bug repellent, but has been shown to be a repellent for other insects. No homeopathic treatment has been demonstrated to be effective. Tea tree oil has been shown to kill bed bugs when directly applied.

Know the facts and the alternatives, and make your own choice. Check the internet for photos of those who have reacted to bed bug bites. If that might be you, take that into consideration in making your choice. There are no known diseases transmitted by bed bugs, so they are irritants, not killers. :)
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Kanga, Studying insects, and I suppose how to kill them, is indeed important work (unless you are the bug). I contend that non-toxic formulas are -- and shall remain -- an option for those people wishing to avoid carcinogens, such as Hamilton-Arvisais.
Additionally, I do take it personally when terms like "snake oil" and "magic incantations" are used to refute my perspective. Perhaps I should develop thicker skin, by applying carcinogens;-)
Then again, I've never been biten by a bed bug, a fact, never soaked my clothes in or sprayed my pack with carcinogens. Maybe my skin is already thick enough, at least for attacks of the bed bug variety.
Perhaps the best thing I have read in this thread is what C clearly said about some people not being allergic or attractive to bed bugs. Seems there may be some fact there too. I wonder why that is. Maybe I eat more garlic than others, or some other intake, or maybe it's just DNA. Who knows for sure? My wife has gone backpacking with me and been covered by ticks, when I had none. Begs the question, do I eat more garlic than her? does the fact that I drink red wine and she white wine make all the difference. God only knows.

The fact remains that there are options out there on the market (many of them), no matter where you studied. Use whatever your own sensibilities can handle.

Respectfully,

Speaking to one of your points, I don't think they like me either! A young woman I travelled with last year--might I mention a very courteous young woman, who I greatly enjoyed meeting--was absolutely devoured by bed bugs.

She had horrible, infected bites, and had a histamine reaction that was terribly uncomfortable. Fortunately, I was traveling with antihistamines, which I shared (some people seldom share, or must know a person for a duration, which is an unpleasant learning from walking El Camino--but fortunately, many of us do).

I was also able to get her to one of the excellent pharmacies in Spain, and they gave her a very good cream, with warnings (cover up from the Sun, etc.). She was more comfortable nearly immediately. I will mention that I noticed that she ate a lot of sugar; don't know if that is relevant.
 
I will mention that I noticed that she ate a lot of sugar; don't know if that is relevant.
The poor thing. I know this does happen, and that is why this is such a passionate topic. Thank you for sharing, Deb, both your story and the antihistamines;-)
And, you may be on to something there with the sugar. I've no doubt my wife is sweeter than I, whether from the white wine or not. But then, I have no data, experience or facts, so wouldn't want to speculate.

Cheers,
 
Technical backpack for day trips with backpack cover and internal compartment for the hydration bladder. Ideal daypack for excursions where we need a medium capacity backpack. The back with Air Flow System creates large air channels that will keep our back as cool as possible.

€83,-
Went in May/June of last year and took a silk liner and a 500g one season sleeping bag ... used the liner once or twice .. same for the sleeping bag rarely used both together ... never saw a single bedbug or any sign of one. We stayed mostly in private albergues but occassionally did the dorm thing as well. I was more or less sick the entire time with the worst bronchial infection I have ever had so spent every evening hacking my lungs out ... didn't want to force anyone else to have to listen to that while they tried to sleep so my husband and I mostly stayed in private double rooms ... we checked every bed and matress thoroughly as per Annie Santiago's excellent advice on the website but never saw any "signs" lucky us! Many beds were metal frames clean and fresh paint, mattresses were usually lined and well maintained ... I was actually a little surprised, not at all what I was expecting. My daughter, on the other hand also used the techniques Annie shared on her page while vacationing in Belize 2 years ago but in her case the precautions were entirely necessary and saved her several times from staying in an infested room ...
 
@falcon269 The EPA (and other sources) state -

"Permethrin does not present any notable genotoxicity or immunotoxicity in humans and farm animals, but is classified by the EPA as a likely human carcinogen, based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors."

@Anniesantiago In regards to the Cdn Government link about Insect Bit Prevention, although they note the use of permethrin, it also states that it is no longer available in Canada. If still on store stocks, it will not be replaced.

I personally would not use it, but it’s an individual decision.

Understand the situation, the actual threat in respect to you, and use what precautions you are comfortable with.

Diligence is your best advocate!
 
St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
Down bag (90/10 duvet) of 700 fills with 180 g (6.34 ounces) of filling. Mummy-shaped structure, ideal when you are looking for lightness with great heating performance.

€149,-
So... treat your stuff (I am moving to DEET)

Hi @C clearly,

I've been thinking of DEET myself. When we go hiking here in Toronto during bug season, I usually wear long sleeved shirts and on occasion, bug shirt and headgear. I use the headgear only when there are so many bugs. The rest of the time, I use DEET sparingly, and I find it to be effective, at least against the bugs on the trails here in Toronto.

Is DEET easily available on the Camino Frances? I can easily bring a can from Canada, but it would be nice to know that I can easily buy it on the CF if I run out.

Thanks.
 
Join our full-service guided tour and let us convert you into a Pampered Pilgrim!
Hi @C clearly,
Is DEET easily available on the Camino Frances? I can easily bring a can from Canada, but it would be nice to know that I can easily buy it on the CF if I run out.
If you ask in a pharmacy in Spain for insect repellant, they will sell you a pump spray (not aerosol) bottle of a product containing Deet.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
@falcon269 The EPA (and other sources) state -

"Permethrin does not present any notable genotoxicity or immunotoxicity in humans and farm animals, but is classified by the EPA as a likely human carcinogen, based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors."

@Anniesantiago In regards to the Cdn Government link about Insect Bit Prevention, although they note the use of permethrin, it also states that it is no longer available in Canada. If still on store stocks, it will not be replaced.

I personally would not use it, but it’s an individual decision.

Understand the situation, the actual threat in respect to you, and use what precautions you are comfortable with.

Diligence is your best advocate!

@DavidsRetired:
I have checked the Canadian government website above, and it does indeed say that permethrin is not available in Canada. This is not accurate. On Saturday (3 days ago) I checked out the pest control products at my local Home Depot to see what is in stock which does contain permethrin. Several types of spray cans containing permethrin were on the shelf in the new stock which has just come in for the summer season. The permethrin is in concentrations of .20% and .25%. I intend to purchase a can of the latter to spray my backpack and sleeping bag, which seems to have worked for me on camino last fall.
 
@DavidsRetired:
I have checked the Canadian government website above, and it does indeed say that permethrin is not available in Canada. This is not accurate. On Saturday (3 days ago) I checked out the pest control products at my local Home Depot to see what is in stock which does contain permethrin. Several types of spray cans containing permethrin were on the shelf in the new stock which has just come in for the summer season. The permethrin is in concentrations of .20% and .25%. I intend to purchase a can of the latter to spray my backpack and sleeping bag, which seems to have worked for me on camino last fall.
This is the type of procuct that is not long lasting. It only works when sprayed until it dries. At least that's what the exterminator said. I also don't know about the other ingredients in those cans. Do you?
 
Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
This is the type of procuct that is not long lasting. It only works when sprayed until it dries. At least that's what the exterminator said. I also don't know about the other ingredients in those cans. Do you?

@Anemone del Camino:
I assume that a can labelled "permethrin" contains permethrin. As for other ingredients, one can contains a preservative, which I will certainly check online before using that product. I used permethrin .25% on my backpack and sleeping bag for a six week camino last fall and took whatever other precautions I could. They seem to have worked, as I did not encounter any bedbugs. Of course, it may have been a happy coincidence.
 
@Anemone del Camino:
I assume that a can labelled "permethrin" contains permethrin. As for other ingredients, one can contains a preservative, which I will certainly check online before using that product. I used permethrin .25% on my backpack and sleeping bag for a six week camino last fall and took whatever other precautions I could. They seem to have worked, as I did not encounter any bedbugs. Of course, it may have been a happy coincidence.
I also used one of those sprays and did not het bitten, but then again I only did one 1 of 5 Caminos, so I don't know if I was lucky or if the product worked....
 
Word of defence here for @CaminoDebrita. She was not blaming the bedbug bites on the quantity of sugar consumed; she just mentioned it in passing, and she did say she didn't know if it was relevant. :)

Your loyalty is unwavering!

I have to say though, I can't get too worked up about @C clearly , seeing as she was my "go to" when I was in the PROCESS of seeing, identifying, killing the bedbug just a few weeks back, ha ha ha!
 
Technical backpack for day trips with backpack cover and internal compartment for the hydration bladder. Ideal daypack for excursions where we need a medium capacity backpack. The back with Air Flow System creates large air channels that will keep our back as cool as possible.

€83,-
I would add that you are all getting a great deal of mileage out of this thread! btw, REI sells a very nice small pump container of DEET that I took to Spain in March/April. Just enough to deal with a problem bed, with plenty left over. It is a 2-oz squirt container.
 
Last edited:
...I have to say though, I can't get too worked up about @C clearly seeing as she was my "go to" when I was in the PROCESS of seeing, identifying, killing the bedbug just a few weeks back...
That wasn't lost on me; @C clearly is a forum stalwart. But things can go sideways so quickly on this forum that I thought I'd be proactive. :)
 
That wasn't lost on me; @C clearly is a forum stalwart. But things can go sideways so quickly on this forum that I thought I'd be proactive. :)
Oh, yes! One moment, flavor of the month. The next moment – – food for bedbugs!
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
Hi @Albertagirl, I can only go by what the government site states. I called Health Canada yesterday, but spent far toooo long on an automated service. I checked locally, and found only DEET based products.

Again, as I mentioned prior, using such products is a personal choice and a risk management, pros vs cons decision. The risk of Bed Bugs transferring diseases to humans, although possible, has not happened; although there is the risk of itching and secondary infections to some. Therefore, they present an extremely low threat risk – just a terrible inconvenience.

In another thread, it was stated to some affect, that those suggesting to not use permethrin because of adverse health effects, were in essence Fear Mongers. I am becoming more of the opinion, that perhaps the opposite is the case. I worry that the liberal use and promotion of such products within this forum is of greater concern, as it instills fear.

Spain reported only 320 confirmed cases of bed bugs in a period of 12-months, while the US reported over 11, 347 for the same period. Even if factoring in those incidents not reported, and regardless of population size, it reflects a miniscule percentile overall.

In many ways, pilgrims using such products, might suggest more of a placebo effect, as permethrin is not necessarily the best product for killing bed bugs; despite it being labelled by some manufactures as such.

My choice is not to use it. I simply apply a routine of checking the bed, bed space and surrounding area and I’m happy with that. Nothing is a guarantee, but I personally see no value in applying chemicals, when the risk is so low. I saw several cases of food poisoning on each of my 3 Caminos, which is perhaps a greater threat then bed bugs. A quick search, indicated that Spain is the food poisoning capital of the world. Should we stop eating – or perhaps just be diligent and focus more on enjoying the journey!

Regardless, if one feels it eases their mind, then use it - or use whatever product you feel comfortable with.
 
So true! When I wrote my comment, I was thinking about how anecdotal evidence (sample of one, even) can morph into "fact".:(

I think those bedbugs know better than to mess with @CaminoDebrita! :p
My husband drinks like a fish and eats a ton of garlic. I don't drink and love a little something sweet. He gets bitten by all manner of little creatures and they tend to leave me alone (when we're together) I'd consider taking him along on the Camino with me solely that the bugs will munch on him and not me!:)
 
Join our full-service guided tour and let us convert you into a Pampered Pilgrim!
Again, as I mentioned prior, using such products is a personal choice and a risk management, pros vs cons decision. The risk of Bed Bugs transferring diseases to humans, although possible, has not happened; although there is the risk of itching and secondary infections to some. Therefore, they present an extremely low threat risk – just a terrible inconvenience.
@DavidsRetired:
David, I too am retired, and living on a low income and no work pension. This is something that I manage very well, but an infestation of bedbugs in my home could be financially disastrous and extremely uncomfortable to me and to my neighbours. To me, this is a risk which I cannot and will not take on. In addition, there is a risk of causing considerable discomfort and possibly illness to some of the vulnerable seniors who share my apartment block. I have had food poisoning and find it most uncomfortable, but I get over it and do not risk either taking it home or passing it on to others. Of course, there are always risks of travel, but I choose to minimize the risk of taking the pests home. I consider that to be more than an inconvenience.
 
@Albertagirl, I understand completely the necessity of mitigating one’s risk, while on the Camino. Bringing the critters home, is however, an entirely different matter; there is simply no guarantee, as you are in close proximity with a multitude of international travelers. This scenario is perhaps when you are at your greatest risk, and is unfortunately unavoidable.

My recommendation would be to have a game plan in place for your return, as many pilgrims do. I tend to wrap all my kit in a plastic garbage bag and leave it in the garage for a while, and/or place in the freezer, room permitting. Or I simply toss directly into the wash on high heat, then into a high setting on the dryer. My point is don’t rely on a 30 + day spraying of your kit to protect you.
 
@Albertagirl, I understand completely the necessity of mitigating one’s risk, while on the Camino. Bringing the critters home, is however, an entirely different matter; there is simply no guarantee, as you are in close proximity with a multitude of international travelers. This scenario is perhaps when you are at your greatest risk, and is unfortunately unavoidable.

My recommendation would be to have a game plan in place for your return, as many pilgrims do. I tend to wrap all my kit in a plastic garbage bag and leave it in the garage for a while, and/or place in the freezer, room permitting. Or I simply toss directly into the wash on high heat, then into a high setting on the dryer. My point is don’t rely on a 30 + day spraying of your kit to protect you.

@DavidsRetired:
You are quite right that trying to avoid picking up bedbugs is no guarantee that you will not do so. However, it is a good start. Examining your kit on return is another helpful activity. I do not have anywhere outside where I could leave a bag, as I live in an apartment, and my apartment fridge/freezer is not cold enough to freeze out the bed bugs. I wash my clothes in hot water and dry on hot after my return, but obviously the merino garments that are so much a part of the pilgrim's kit cannot be included. In short, I do what I can at every stage of my pilgrimage, including before I leave and on my return, to avoid being bitten by bedbugs and bringing them home with me. If the spraying helps, it is, as I have noted above, at a very low dosage: .25% permethrin. I do not believe, from what I have read, that this is harmful to me or to others. We all do what we can to avoid this nasty pest.
P.S.: I am very favourable to the camino plans which you are making for Canadian veterans and hopeful that this will provide good and healing experiences for them. We (Canadians) owe it to them.
 
A guide to speaking Spanish on the Camino - enrich your pilgrim experience.
Be careful. Permethrin is carcinogenic - if you ingest it. You would need to drink about five kg of the Saywers spray product to even start to get to the level required to be a concern. Provided you avoid it coming into contact with moist areas of your body, it is safe to use, so don't use it on underwear or gear that is likely to come into contact with you eyes, nose, mouth etc.

If you don't want to use a synthetic chemical such as permethrin, there are other preparations available using compounds such as pyrethrim and essential oils. These are generally not as effective or long lasting as permethrin.

As for silk - I don't think there is any evidence that silk has any repellent properties, and it is certainly not an insecticide.
Just as you correctly stated the toxic amount of Sawyer spray, I would go one step further and suggest that your concern regarding absorption thru the skin is not as concerning as you suggest. On my first Camino I sprayed everything using Sawyer spray, and using my own dip - both are 0.5%. I use permethrin mainly for protection against ticks and the diesease they carry. I prefer hiking in the mountain's so mosquitos are not a real concern as they dont like being above 2000 ft. If I am hiking and building up a sweat, my treated clothes are mosit/wet and in contact with my skin. But, I dont have a concern because of the concentration 0.5% and the fact that permethrin is poorly absorbed by the skin. Indeed, one research article stated that the reason you can not use permethrin directly on skin, is because it is inactivated by a enzyme (dont remember exact details now) on the skin.
Even the prescription creams of 2.5% and 5% permethrin are generally safe and have low absorption. That doesn't mean that you would want to take a bath in a tub full of 5% permethrin cream.
We should remember also that EPA data and other scientific research often conduct experiment's that use pemethrin concentration far in excess of 0.5%, and they FED it to lab mice! Folk's hear the word "carcinogen" but do not really consider how this data was obtained. Not negating the negative effects on the environment, aquatic life, cats, and humans if you inhale large amount's, drink liters of 50% permethrin, or eat your clothes that have sprayed been with high concentrations!
Janice
 
@MaidinBham Your information is rather questionable, which presents a pet peeve with me. Others will read your information and accept it unquestionably, then pass it along as factual. Welcome to the world of internet experts.

I would be very much interested on where you obtained your data and the validity of these sources.

When we conduct experiments on mice, there is a great deal of thought on the administration of such substances, right down to the selection of vehicle or solvent for delivery. The specific considerations are numerous and include factors such as weight ratios, absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion of therapeutic or chemical agents. We do not just administer excessive amounts and see what happens.

Also, associating a variety of permethrin based products in a lump application process is foolhardy. Individual products are designed for specific uses, and should not be compared as the chemical makeup is different.

Being glib in your remarks (“…if you inhale large amount's, drink liters of 50% permethrin, or eat your clothes…”) is irresponsible. Additionally, if a product has a warning label on it, do not suggest to others that it’s safe to disregard that warning (which in essence is what you’ve done), based of your usage of the product.

As an aside, recent studies of pyrethroids, have raised a cautionary red flag within the scientific community (which I am part of), which have deemed it not as safe as once considered. It has been demonstrated that it is more acutely toxic to children than to adults, but toxic nonetheless. Specifically, in regards to children, evidence is accumulating that pyrethroid exposure has shown markedly decreased neurodevelopment. These compounds are currently being reevaluated as more information is becoming available, and are being disused (in some applications) in a number of countries.

I’m not trying to persuade people one way or the other. However, I simply detest when misinformation is perpetually put forth as factual, usually with little real basis other than personal use or “internet claims”, Ugh

I suggest the forum would be better served if we all stuck to what we know about the Camino.
 
@MaidinBham Your information is rather questionable, which presents a pet peeve with me. Others will read your information and accept it unquestionably, then pass it along as factual. Welcome to the world of internet experts.

I would be very much interested on where you obtained your data and the validity of these sources.

When we conduct experiments on mice, there is a great deal of thought on the administration of such substances, right down to the selection of vehicle or solvent for delivery. The specific considerations are numerous and include factors such as weight ratios, absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion of therapeutic or chemical agents. We do not just administer excessive amounts and see what happens.

Also, associating a variety of permethrin based products in a lump application process is foolhardy. Individual products are designed for specific uses, and should not be compared as the chemical makeup is different.

Being glib in your remarks (“…if you inhale large amount's, drink liters of 50% permethrin, or eat your clothes…”) is irresponsible. Additionally, if a product has a warning label on it, do not suggest to others that it’s safe to disregard that warning (which in essence is what you’ve done), based of your usage of the product.

As an aside, recent studies of pyrethroids, have raised a cautionary red flag within the scientific community (which I am part of), which have deemed it not as safe as once considered. It has been demonstrated that it is more acutely toxic to children than to adults, but toxic nonetheless. Specifically, in regards to children, evidence is accumulating that pyrethroid exposure has shown markedly decreased neurodevelopment. These compounds are currently being reevaluated as more information is becoming available, and are being disused (in some applications) in a number of countries.

I’m not trying to persuade people one way or the other. However, I simply detest when misinformation is perpetually put forth as factual, usually with little real basis other than personal use or “internet claims”, Ugh

I suggest the forum would be better served if we all stuck to what we know about the Camino.
Well, I never claimed I was an expert, or a scientist. But as a user of permethrin, I have researched it and read the available scientific studies. I found my info on the internet, EPA, Manufacturers of permethrin products, Pharmaceutical manufactures etc. I can not give links as I appeared not to have bookmarked. I did try to search for link for comments I made in prior post, but was unable to locate. I believe it may have been a study cited by EPA - but EPA not the easiest to navigate. I do recall that the study citing permethrin as a LIKELY carcinogen was based on lab mice being FED permethrin - hence my remark "dont eat your clothes" The concentration of permethrin WAS NOT 0.5% (the usual concentration of factory treated clothing, and Sawyer's permethrin spray) I dont recall but believe it was >20% concentration. No wonder the mice developed liver and kidney tumors! Concentrations such as these, are not used in permethrin treated clothing, or prescription creams. Indeed, I don't believe that are any actual scientific research studies done on humans or lab animals for permethrin 0.5%
Not sure why you equate or compare pyrethroids and permethrin - they are different generations, with pyrethroid being more much toxic.
As with anything on the internet, including this forum and your post, I never accept anything as gospel. And for someone who claims to be part of the "scientific community" you certainly haven't cited sources for your arguments, and you didn't mention "bed bugs" once on a thread about bed bugs!
Janice
 
St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
I am not here to debate with you. You seem focused on justifying your position, without a basis of logical understanding or reasoning on the matter. To argue is fruitless, and detracts from the primary focus. I am here for the Camino journey, and not your personal beliefs on products. I will not be engaging you further in this thread. Buen Camino
 
As an aside, recent studies of pyrethroids, have raised a cautionary red flag within the scientific community (which I am part of), which have deemed it not as safe as once considered.
Can you provide a source for that? It would be useful to read the science. Thanks.
 
@falcon269 I’m currently a lead Biologist (researcher), whose primary function is in Genome Editing. Insecticides is not my focus, but am privy to current preliminary studies in some areas. Because of my position, I am unable to provide any links to current research; I would loose my job in a New York minute! In fact, I regret even making a comment in this regard within this thread.

Regardless, what I can say is the following; as you are probably aware, permethrin-impregnated bed nets for the prevention of malaria have been used for some time now in African nations, in the hope of reducing child mortality rates. The pre-treated nets use a dose of 0.5 g of permethrin/m2 per/of netting. Overall, this has been highly successful. Several early studies were done as a basis, with follow-up studies between 5 to 10-years. These studies showed acceptable tolerances for the continuance of the programs. In the mid 2000s some concerns were noted, but nothing outstanding. By 2010, 2012 the bulk of the initial group of children being studied, demonstrated a marked increase in developmental problems. It was determined on testing that bed nets showed persistence of permethrin residues, which were being handled by both child and adults. Soil and environmental factors were also tested.

Understanding the 1970s bulk studies on the nervous system of mice, demonstrated that permethrin affects the brain in the way that it was designed to behave. That is, it causes repetitive firing of the electronic signals in particular regions of the brain. These effects were found in laboratory animals used for predicting what might happen in humans. This was now being shown in the more recent studies in Africa.

As with the behavioral studies of rats and mice, which showed reductions in learned behavior, as well as impairments in balance, strength, and speed. With one study that found changes in motor activity and social behavior in the offspring of mice who were given permethrin prior to mating. This is important to understand, as permethrin was once considered safe for pregnant women and breastfeeding. However, this is now being contested, as new long-term findings demonstrate otherwise.

Furthermore, new preliminary studies have found a direct impact on the immune system, showing significant effects. Results indicated that permethrin led to the death and/or reduced production of blood cells necessary to fight bacteria and viruses and remove waste products from the blood. Varied physiological changes, including DNA damage, were reported in other systems.

One of the primary concerns, is recent research has demonstrated that permethrin exhibits the characteristics of an endocrine disruptor. Endocrine disruptors are chemicals that interfere with the communication system of glands, hormones, and cellular receptors that control the body’s internal functions. A relatively unique feature of endocrine disruptors is that they exert their effects at extremely low doses. Disorders that have increased in prevalence in recent years such as unusual male gonadal development, infertility, ADHD, autism, intellectual impairment, diabetes, thyroid disorders, and childhood and/or adult cancers are now being linked to prenatal exposure to endocrine disruptors.

Recent studies are also finding similar data in the US, Canada and throughout the EU. These studies are focused on children, as they are more susceptible. Urine samples have shown notable increases of pyrethroid insecticides, cis- and trans-permethrin. The primary route of the children's exposure to the combined isomers was through dietary ingestion, followed by indirect ingestion (air sampling from household sprays confirmed this, as well as dust samples within homes, as examples).

I will also add, that several studies have been shown the effects of combinations of chemicals used among U.S. military personnel during the Persian Gulf War (Gulf War Syndrome), which included permethrin-impregnated within soldier’s uniforms.

I don’t have a great deal of time to put forth to this discussion, but hope this provided some insight.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Technical backpack for day trips with backpack cover and internal compartment for the hydration bladder. Ideal daypack for excursions where we need a medium capacity backpack. The back with Air Flow System creates large air channels that will keep our back as cool as possible.

€83,-
@falcon269 The EPA (and other sources) state -

"Permethrin does not present any notable genotoxicity or immunotoxicity in humans and farm animals, but is classified by the EPA as a likely human carcinogen, based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors."

@Anniesantiago In regards to the Cdn Government link about Insect Bit Prevention, although they note the use of permethrin, it also states that it is no longer available in Canada. If still on store stocks, it will not be replaced.

I personally would not use it, but it’s an individual decision.

Understand the situation, the actual threat in respect to you, and use what precautions you are comfortable with.

Diligence is your best advocate!

Well, the Fluoride found in nearly every toothpaste that nearly all people put in their mouths twice a day or more is also dangerous and has been found by the FDA to cause cancer.

I'm more afraid of fluoride in my toothpaste and the horrible chemically perfumed laundry products that choke me and ,make my eyes water and my brain foggy and my head hurt, than I am of dried permethrin which does not touch my skin and to which I have no apparent reaction. I'm the canary in the coal mine and that's my choice. And you are right. We all must decide for ourselves.

Besides, I suspect many albergues are spraying insecticide routinely so you are being exposed anyway.:eek:
 
I bought some at the feed store in Kelowna. (Buckerfields).


@DavidsRetired:
I have checked the Canadian government website above, and it does indeed say that permethrin is not available in Canada. This is not accurate. On Saturday (3 days ago) I checked out the pest control products at my local Home Depot to see what is in stock which does contain permethrin. Several types of spray cans containing permethrin were on the shelf in the new stock which has just come in for the summer season. The permethrin is in concentrations of .20% and .25%. I intend to purchase a can of the latter to spray my backpack and sleeping bag, which seems to have worked for me on camino last fall.
 
@Anniesantiago I agree, there are a great many daily substances we use, which are probably more harmful. I can’t even walk down the soap isle in the store anymore without my eyes starting to burn. As my immune system is shot (over exposure throughout a career, so I am told) and for the last 10-years being hypersensitive to many things, I tend to push alternative options. I just worry that many over compensate with sprays on the Camino (and…everywhere else).

You are also correct in the Albergues. I suspect they use a great deal of chemical treatments; the question is, are they qualified and use the correct amounts, or just over-spray everything in sight?

I recall a few years back a couple of girls (tourist) in Cambodia (I believe) who were exposed in a hotel; one of the girls died, as the owner had over sprayed the sheets and pillow. Such a shame.

In regards to the Canadian government site saying that “permethrin is not available in Canada”, well, so much for trusting in our government for valid information! Lol

Cheers,
Dave

P.S. @Kelownagurl I love Kelowna. I almost married a German girl from there, whose parents wanted me to take over their vineyard so they could return to Germany.
 
€2,-/day will present your project to thousands of visitors each day. All interested in the Camino de Santiago.
@SunnyLife , some of the side effects you describe may explain the odd behaviour of a number of pilgrims on route, Forum members excluded of course! ;)

Seriously, I thank you for such a well informed post. I for one noticed this part: "The pre-treated nets use a dose of 0.5 g of permethrin/m2 per/of netting.". How many of us spraying know exactly how much we are spraying over a particular surface? If I am spraying 1% concentration over my sleeping bag, am I spraying 1gram, 0.1 gram? I don't know...
 
@falcon269 I’m currently a lead Biologist (researcher), whose primary function is in Genome Editing. Insecticides is not my focus, but am privy to current preliminary studies in some areas. Because of my position, I am unable to provide any links to current research; I would loose my job in a New York minute! In fact, I regret even making a comment in this regard within this thread.

Regardless, what I can say is the following; as you are probably aware, permethrin-impregnated bed nets for the prevention of malaria have been used for some time now in African nations, in the hope of reducing child mortality rates. The pre-treated nets use a dose of 0.5 g of permethrin/m2 per/of netting. Overall, this has been highly successful. Several early studies were done as a basis, with follow-up studies between 5 to 10-years. These studies showed acceptable tolerances for the continuance of the programs. In the mid 2000s some concerns were noted, but nothing outstanding. By 2010, 2012 the bulk of the initial group of children being studied, demonstrated a marked increase in developmental problems. It was determined on testing that bed nets showed persistence of permethrin residues, which were being handled by both child and adults. Soil and environmental factors were also tested.

Understanding the 1970s bulk studies on the nervous system of mice, demonstrated that permethrin affects the brain in the way that it was designed to behave. That is, it causes repetitive firing of the electronic signals in particular regions of the brain. These effects were found in laboratory animals used for predicting what might happen in humans. This was now being shown in the more recent studies in Africa.

As with the behavioral studies of rats and mice, which showed reductions in learned behavior, as well as impairments in balance, strength, and speed. With one study that found changes in motor activity and social behavior in the offspring of mice who were given permethrin prior to mating. This is important to understand, as permethrin was once considered safe for pregnant women and breastfeeding. However, this is now being contested, as new long-term findings demonstrate otherwise.

Furthermore, new preliminary studies have found a direct impact on the immune system, showing significant effects. Results indicated that permethrin led to the death and/or reduced production of blood cells necessary to fight bacteria and viruses and remove waste products from the blood. Varied physiological changes, including DNA damage, were reported in other systems.

One of the primary concerns, is recent research has demonstrated that permethrin exhibits the characteristics of an endocrine disruptor. Endocrine disruptors are chemicals that interfere with the communication system of glands, hormones, and cellular receptors that control the body’s internal functions. A relatively unique feature of endocrine disruptors is that they exert their effects at extremely low doses. Disorders that have increased in prevalence in recent years such as unusual male gonadal development, infertility, ADHD, autism, intellectual impairment, diabetes, thyroid disorders, and childhood and/or adult cancers are now being linked to prenatal exposure to endocrine disruptors.

Recent studies are also finding similar data in the US, Canada and throughout the EU. These studies are focused on children, as they are more susceptible. Urine samples have shown notable increases of pyrethroid insecticides, cis- and trans-permethrin. The primary route of the children's exposure to the combined isomers was through dietary ingestion, followed by indirect ingestion (air sampling from household sprays confirmed this, as well as dust samples within homes, as examples).

I will also add, that several studies have been shown the effects of combinations of chemicals used among U.S. military personnel during the Persian Gulf War (Gulf War Syndrome), which included permethrin-impregnated within soldier’s uniforms.

I don’t have a great deal of time to put forth to this discussion, but hope this provided some insight.

This is all scary and good information but the question remains, what to do to combat bedbugs for six weeks on the Camino?
 
@SunnyLife , some of the side effects you describe may explain the odd behaviour of a number of pilgrims on route, Forum members excluded of course! ;)

Seriously, I thank you for such a well informed post. I for one noticed this part: "The pre-treated nets use a dose of 0.5 g of permethrin/m2 per/of netting.". How many of us spraying know exactly how much we are spraying over a particular surface? If I am spraying 1% concentration over my sleeping bag, am I spraying 1gram, 0.1 gram? I don't know...

You are not so off base here as you may think, Anemone! I have been known to go from nice grandma to Mrs. Hyde in a matter of minutes after exposure to some chemicals. It's not only distressing but can lead to great embarrassment, which is why I often obsess with my environment.
 
A guide to speaking Spanish on the Camino - enrich your pilgrim experience.
This thread has made me think, that as more and more people use these products on the Camino, are we perhaps not creating a bigger problem, as insects are developing a resistance to them, by overuse.

A quick search produced several reports out of Australia, where patients reported ineffectiveness of the drug (permethrin) against mites. This certainly must be true for other insects, including bed bugs.

Maybe we are so worried about ourselves that we are not seeing the bigger picture. I know an above post mentioned in jest (I hope) about negating the effects on our environment, but it’s our environment, which keeps us alive. Just the impact on bees alone is incredibly worrisome – no bees, no pollination of crops.

Perhaps we continually demonstrate that we (as a race) are more self absorbed, and lousy at estimating real risk, by our actions; we are short term thinkers.

There must be a positive alternative.

Just thinking out-loud.
 
@SunnyLife I do not understand why you are not prepared to cite the research. Or how doing so could possibly endanger your employment.
 
@SunnyLife I do not understand why you are not prepared to cite the research. Or how doing so could possibly endanger your employment.
If he is talking about yet unpublished research, and research others are conducting, not him. I can see why leaking this info would displease many.
 
€2,-/day will present your project to thousands of visitors each day. All interested in the Camino de Santiago.
@Anemone del Camino, Exactly!

@Kanga I am unaware of your professional work policies, but I have absolutely no authority to release preliminary findings by other research facilities or scientist. That would be paramount to professional suicide.

Despite my first response, which was based more on frustration then any other reason, this is not my discussion, and as I said, regret jumping into it. I have responded, but am respectfully backing out of this thread.

My only wish is to participate in the Camino experience threads, and leave these topics to the masses to decide for themselves.

This is my much needed day off, so off to enjoy it.
 
@SunnyLife my professional work policy is to look for the evidence.

I don't say you are wrong; there is plenty of published research to show that (a) bedbugs are becoming resistant to permethrin and (b) we are always discovering new and unpleasant side effects of various substances, some of which were once thought harmless and are now known to be lethal. Tobacco, asbestos, DDT - the list is long.

But there is a risk/benefit ratio to be considered, and hence I would like to read the evidence.

In the meantime I don't like being bitten by bedbugs, I react badly to them, and I'll be using permethrin.

Keep researching, we need good scientists.
 
Devon Mike's suggestion that bed bugs are a Camino myth is not helpful. There are bedbugs on the Camino. And every peregrino has a responsibility to apprise him/herself of the problem and how to deal with it. Unfortunately, this forum is not a reliable source of information. Do yourself, and your fellow travelers, a favor - do an on-line search on how to deal with them, then develop a strategy to avoid spreading them.
I have spent more than 80 nights in May/June in around 70 different Albergues in the last 2 years. I prefer the Municipal, Parrochial and low cost Private Albergues and have never come across any bed bugs. Maybe they are a Camino myth. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
This thread "settle our debate" will NEVER be settled. Five years, ten years, fifty years from now the same questions will be asked about bed bugs and other "pests" that spread disease, and affect agricultural production of food. Not easy to navigate the universe amid the Big Corporations - many who act unethically and have pushed products such as teflon (C8, PFOA) for decades knowing they are carcinogenic and poisoning water in every corner of the earth.
@DavidsRetired I am not certain if you were referring to comments I myself made about the environment, but I think you misunderstand. I stated that my comments DO NOT negate the negative impact of insecticides on the environment.
I did find my bookmarks for info I previously posted, and will link here. I think the study "
Health Effects of Permethrin-Impregnated Army Battle-Dress Uniforms"
provides comprehensive overview of permethrin and scientific research that is the most current - although it is decades old.
The document is quite long, the first link discusses carcinogenicity of permethrin and cites several studies. Keep in mind the route and dose that lab rodents were fed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK231558/

Read the intro, summary and jump around as much as you like. It may be the most current (for USA anyway) info we have for permethrin treated clothing.
Janice
 
Hi @MaidinBham. I have seen this report and understand the focus on carcinogenic risk factors; but there are more recent reports in regards to military personnel. Nonetheless, I appreciate the link. Thank you.

My focus is in regards to myself and my own health issues; mainly my immune system, as my WBC count has been and continues to be extremely low. I do have personal medical reports, which state that the “suspected” primary cause has been environmental exposure. Proving that to Veterans Affairs is a very different matter, as it’s basically an insurance based system for us. I served 25-years, most of that in an infantry battalion, and we were forever dipping our uniforms. I just don’t want others to go through what I have.

From reading some of your post, I appreciate your position and why you choose to use these products. It is important that everyone makes their own decision in this regard. I just try to present an alternative opinion, as I worry that some new pilgrims, based off many of these threads, may feel overtly scared into using this or similar products.

Again, with my immune deficiency, I simply can’t use these insecticides. However, I understand why you choose to. I just wish there was a validated alternative.

Edited (Added after post): For what it's worth - I just did a quick search and found this small article on military uniforms: http://www.nature.com/jes/journal/v24/n6/full/jes201365a.html

Take care!

Dave
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've successfully used tea tree oil as a bedbug repellent. A couple of drops in your pack and onto your sleeping bag before you pack it each day works like a charm. Tea tree oil also doubles up as an antiseptic for grazes and blisters.
Tea tree oil was recommended to us at a Farmacia just past Burgos after my wife had an allergic reaction to bed bug bites. It should be diluted and feels great on your skin. You can also use it to treat the fungal infections that you may pick up in the shower.
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
Devon Mike's post (below) is irresponsible. There are bedbugs on the Camino. And every peregrino has a responsibility to apprise him/herself of the problem and how to deal with it. Unfortunately, this forum is not a reliable source of information. Do yourself, and your fellow travelers, a favor - do an on-line search on how to avoid transporting them to other lodgings, then develop a strategy to avoid carrying them with you.
So what is irresponsible? The point I was making was based on facts. I have spent more than 80 nights in May/June in around 70 different Albergues in the last 2 years and never came across any bed bugs. I always checked for signs of them when I arrived and never found anything. I never had a single bite. I regularly checked my kit and never found any infestation. When I got home I turned out all my kit in the garden and checked it again and never found any bugs. On both Caminos I talked with many pilgrims I met, and none of them mentioned being affected by bugs.

If I ever find signs of bugs I will deal with them in the proper way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top