Beggars and human trafficking in SdC

[MinaKamina]

If you still feel like giving money to beggars, first read this. Do you really want to support human trafficking and mafia with your gift?

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2018/10/28/galicia/1540732401_716646.html

Police liberate 10 immigrants forced by a Romanian mafia to beg and act as statues in Santiago.


The network targeted people with "physical and mental disabilities" and women were also forced into prostitution.

The criminal organisation investigated for alleged crimes of human trafficking for the purpose of begging and sexual exploitation "captured its victims in Romania, preferably with physical and mental disabilities", and brought them to Spain "under a false promise of work." These people in "vulnerable situations" were promised a decent future, with "housing and a job in the hotel sector." Disabilities, says the police, would be very "profitable" to this mafia "for the real jobs, such as begging, they were going to do here."

With these promises, the victims agreed to travel to Spain, sometimes accompanied by their families, and they were transferred to the province of A Coruña "where they were housed in substandard housing controlled by the organization. The buildings "had deplorable conditions of health, hygiene and safety" and they "remained overcrowded."

It didn't matter if it rained or if there was a heat wave: according to the agents, "the investigated forced the victims to beg in the streets of Santiago, begging on their knees during days that lasted all day regardless of the weather conditions." "They also acted as mimes or human statues, collecting money without time to rest or eat," and everything they got was handed over "immediately" to the bosses. The persons now arrested were "particularly violent" when some of their clandestine workers "became ill and could not go out into the street." The women, moreover, were "threatened and controlled at all times by the owner of the place" where they were pushed into prostitution.

Apart from the three people arrested in Santiago, the investigators aim to locate their contacts abroad. They have already requested three European arrest and extradition warrants for the gang members "who are residing outside Spain." The National Police Force recalls that there is a "trafficking telephone" (900 10 50 90) and an email (trata@policia.es), attended by specialized police and "at the disposal of the citizens 24 hours a day." Since October 2017 they have received "more than 2,000 communications in calls and mail. In the same period, "more than 1,200 people linked to criminal organizations of trafficking and sexual exploitation" have been arrested and "290 victims" have been rescued, mainly "of Romanian, Nigerian, Chinese and Dominican nationality."

 

[nidarosa]

I just came home from Santiago where we saw the silent beggars on their knees and talked about why anyone would do that, and what could be done to help them other than giving money - this is shocking news, but thanks for sharing. I hope the poor victims get well looked after and the help they need to start a better life.

 

[nycwalking]

Seems to be collective madness going on in the world.

Sorry, it rears fearsome head in a sacred space for millions.

Glad ringleaders, at least some, have been arrested.

 

[Saint Mike II]

I was in a similar situation to @nidarosa, one would see these people and not really know how to respond. However as I had seen similar "beggars" on the streets of Madrid in 2013 & 2015 and Rome in 2016 I chose to pass them by. Thanks to @MinaKamina I now know I chose the better path. That does not say that I did not have sympathy of the people begging, I chose an alternative method of assisting. Cheers

 

[VNwalking]

Since October 2017 they have received "more than 2,000 communications in calls and mail. In the same period, "more than 1,200 people linked to criminal organizations of trafficking and sexual exploitation" have been arrested and "290 victims"

1200?? The scale of this is mind-boggling.
And it is immensely sad.
The question that arises is what we as pilgrims can do to (if anything) by way of support - either for the ongoing investigations and to help the victims.
That there is a number to call is suoer, but our observations and whatever photos we could offer by way of evidence are likely useless. Surely the Santiago police are aware of who is doing what, and where - right?
And I wonder what has happened to the victims.

 

[Cybermum]

If you still feel like giving money to beggars, first read this. Do you really want to support human trafficking and mafia with your gift?

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2018/10/28/galicia/1540732401_716646.html

Police liberate 10 immigrants forced by a Romanian mafia to beg and act as statues in Santiago.


The network targeted people with "physical and mental disabilities" and women were also forced into prostitution.

The criminal organisation investigated for alleged crimes of human trafficking for the purpose of begging and sexual exploitation "captured its victims in Romania, preferably with physical and mental disabilities", and brought them to Spain "under a false promise of work." These people in "vulnerable situations" were promised a decent future, with "housing and a job in the hotel sector." Disabilities, says the police, would be very "profitable" to this mafia "for the real jobs, such as begging, they were going to do here."

With these promises, the victims agreed to travel to Spain, sometimes accompanied by their families, and they were transferred to the province of A Coruña "where they were housed in substandard housing controlled by the organization. The buildings "had deplorable conditions of health, hygiene and safety" and they "remained overcrowded."

It didn't matter if it rained or if there was a heat wave: according to the agents, "the investigated forced the victims to beg in the streets of Santiago, begging on their knees during days that lasted all day regardless of the weather conditions." "They also acted as mimes or human statues, collecting money without time to rest or eat," and everything they got was handed over "immediately" to the bosses. The persons now arrested were "particularly violent" when some of their clandestine workers "became ill and could not go out into the street." The women, moreover, were "threatened and controlled at all times by the owner of the place" where they were pushed into prostitution.

Apart from the three people arrested in Santiago, the investigators aim to locate their contacts abroad. They have already requested three European arrest and extradition warrants for the gang members "who are residing outside Spain." The National Police Force recalls that there is a "trafficking telephone" (900 10 50 90) and an email (trata@policia.es), attended by specialized police and "at the disposal of the citizens 24 hours a day." Since October 2017 they have received "more than 2,000 communications in calls and mail. In the same period, "more than 1,200 people linked to criminal organizations of trafficking and sexual exploitation" have been arrested and "290 victims" have been rescued, mainly "of Romanian, Nigerian, Chinese and Dominican nationality."

Terrible . Especially as everyone is in good spirits and people take advantage of this

 

[Stephen Nicholls]

I chose an alternative method of assisting. Cheers

Not quite sure what you mean by "an alternative method of assisting". I sometimes offer food rather than money. But I dread to think what the ringleaders might do to "beggars" who eventually took no money hoome. It's a sad world, and I pray for all of them - the 'beggars' as well as the ringleaders.

 

[notion900]

Begging is now endemic here in London. I never ever give money, no matter what the story or how maimed or bedraggled they are (yes we have maimed beggars, not many but a few). Sometimes I am approached by 2 or 3 people begging on the train and then a couple more on the 2 minute walk between the station and my home. I have also had aggressive beggars target me.

I know several ex homeless people through my work who support this stance, they say that money goes to mafias or drugs. By supporting the flow of money the unfortunate people never access support services, and the criminals thrive.

 

[t2andreo]

I am glad this has happened. However, others will replace them. It never ends...

 

[notion900]

Others only replace them if people keep giving money.

 

[jony jony]

I was in Santiago in 2015...2017 and in September this year and on all 3 occasions the same female was doing the " on the knees praying /begging thing " just round the corner from the cathedral square .This method of begging must be worthwhile for her or her handlers to still be doing it for what is now years .
Of course i don't know if this individual is one of the people referred to in the article, but now i suspect she is as last year i offered to buy her something to eat /drink and she refused .
When i passed this spot later in the evening , an older lady was in the exact same place ( in the rain )and again i offered to buy her some food and again she refused, she only wanted money .....she got none off me ...food yes..coffee yes...sympathy yes.......money no.
In the town where i now live i regularly buy homeless people coffee....sandwiches....a pair of gloves on one occasion ,but never money....i let them buy their own beer/ drugs .
Until we collectively stop giving money this problem will not go away ........just my opinion of course .

 

[mette]

If you still feel like giving money to beggars, first read this. Do you really want to support human trafficking and mafia with your gift?

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2018/10/28/galicia/1540732401_716646.html

Police liberate 10 immigrants forced by a Romanian mafia to beg and act as statues in Santiago.


The network targeted people with "physical and mental disabilities" and women were also forced into prostitution.

The criminal organisation investigated for alleged crimes of human trafficking for the purpose of begging and sexual exploitation "captured its victims in Romania, preferably with physical and mental disabilities", and brought them to Spain "under a false promise of work." These people in "vulnerable situations" were promised a decent future, with "housing and a job in the hotel sector." Disabilities, says the police, would be very "profitable" to this mafia "for the real jobs, such as begging, they were going to do here."

With these promises, the victims agreed to travel to Spain, sometimes accompanied by their families, and they were transferred to the province of A Coruña "where they were housed in substandard housing controlled by the organization. The buildings "had deplorable conditions of health, hygiene and safety" and they "remained overcrowded."

It didn't matter if it rained or if there was a heat wave: according to the agents, "the investigated forced the victims to beg in the streets of Santiago, begging on their knees during days that lasted all day regardless of the weather conditions." "They also acted as mimes or human statues, collecting money without time to rest or eat," and everything they got was handed over "immediately" to the bosses. The persons now arrested were "particularly violent" when some of their clandestine workers "became ill and could not go out into the street." The women, moreover, were "threatened and controlled at all times by the owner of the place" where they were pushed into prostitution.

Apart from the three people arrested in Santiago, the investigators aim to locate their contacts abroad. They have already requested three European arrest and extradition warrants for the gang members "who are residing outside Spain." The National Police Force recalls that there is a "trafficking telephone" (900 10 50 90) and an email (trata@policia.es), attended by specialized police and "at the disposal of the citizens 24 hours a day." Since October 2017 they have received "more than 2,000 communications in calls and mail. In the same period, "more than 1,200 people linked to criminal organizations of trafficking and sexual exploitation" have been arrested and "290 victims" have been rescued, mainly "of Romanian, Nigerian, Chinese and Dominican nationality."

I don’t give money, I gave them bananas and they seemed to be very happy. But none of those I saw where sitting on their knees. One of them had a dog. I don’t know if there is any different from the other beggars. But I never give money.
Buen Camino

 

[gittiharre]

The darkness in the world is so sad...and can so easily overshadow the joy...criminality thriving amidst the rising division of rich and poor...result of greed and entitlement and consumerism and non sustainable lifestyles. It is a global issue.
We can each do our small bit by living more sustainably, offering kindness and compassion.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Venturing out from my eyrie in Scotland recently I was In London and waiting outside Kings Cross station for the rush hour to subside before taking the underground to my BnB. While I was sitting on one of the concrete benches there eating a sausage roll I realised I had company and looked down to see a Staffordshire Bull terrier looking up at me soulfully, or to be accurate , looking up at my sausage roll. I asked his owner, a rough sleeper judging by his belongings, if it was okay to give his dog a sausage roll, which he said it was. The owner asked if I had 17p to help him buy a coffee, when I offered more he responded that 17p was all he needed he wasn't begging. I waited with his dog while he went to buy the coffee and on his return he was carrying a plastic cup plus a smaller one which he put down on the ground, it was full of milk which Tyson (the dog) hastily drank. In future I will make sure I buy coffee tokens from the outlets around stations to give to people who want them, then they can make choices. I am ashamed that I live in a country where despite their best efforts and the force of circumstances people are forced to live on the streets and to do their best to hold on to the dignity which an economy, seemingly designed to service greed, does its best to smash.

 

[SabsP]

I don’t give money, I gave them bananas and they seemed to be very happy. But none of those I saw where sitting on their knees. One of them had a dog. I don’t know if there is any different from the other beggars. But I never give money.
Buen Camino

There are the poor modern slaves like the Romani people mentioned in the article.
Then there are the " eternal " pilgrims sleeping rough on the different Caminos and time to time end up in Santiago , some of them suffering from PTSD. I know alot of ex military men are amongst them.
And not forgetting the bigger group of Spaniards who still have a house and even a low paid job but have to beg to survive.

Like @SEB said : the force of circumstances.

When you do not have dignity anymore it is so utterly depressing.
I do not have a solution...I really wish I had.

 

[chinacat]

Venturing out from my eyrie in Scotland recently I was In London and waiting outside Kings Cross station for the rush hour to subside before taking the underground to my BnB. While I was sitting on one of the concrete benches there eating a sausage roll I realised I had company and looked down to see a Staffordshire Bull terrier looking up at me soulfully, or to be accurate , looking up at my sausage roll. I asked his owner, a rough sleeper judging by his belongings, if it was okay to give his dog a sausage roll, which he said it was. The owner asked if I had 17p to help him buy a coffee, when I offered more he responded that 17p was all he needed he wasn't begging. I waited with his dog while he went to buy the coffee and on his return he was carrying a plastic cup plus a smaller one which he put down on the ground, it was full of milk which Tyson (the dog) hastily drank. In future I will make sure I buy coffee tokens from the outlets around stations to give to people who want them, then they can make choices. I am ashamed that I live in a country where despite their best efforts and the force of circumstances people are forced to live on the streets and to do their best to hold on to the dignity which an economy, seemingly designed to service greed, does its best to smash.

There but for fortune .....

Thank you @SEB .

 

[J F Gregory]

I was in Santiago in 2015...2017 and in September this year and on all 3 occasions the same female was doing the " on the knees praying /begging thing " just round the corner from the cathedral square .This method of begging must be worthwhile for her or her handlers to still be doing it for what is now years .
Of course i don't know if this individual is one of the people referred to in the article, but now i suspect she is as last year i offered to buy her something to eat /drink and she refused .
When i passed this spot later in the evening , an older lady was in the exact same place ( in the rain )and again i offered to buy her some food and again she refused, she only wanted money .....she got none off me ...food yes..coffee yes...sympathy yes.......money no.
In the town where i now live i regularly buy homeless people coffee....sandwiches....a pair of gloves on one occasion ,but never money....i let them buy their own beer/ drugs .
Until we collectively stop giving money this problem will not go away ........just my opinion of course .

Actually I saw a group of them sitting off of the plaza having a large picnic lunch together.

 

[Tincatinker]

Actually I saw a group of them sitting off of the plaza having a large picnic lunch together.

The residents of 'Bedlam' got 'three meals a-day'. Your point is?
For most of these 'teams' a stale bocadillo is a lucky break. You think the gang-masters give a flying s--t about the welfare of their assets? If they're breathing that will do. If they're not you can still charge the family for the outstanding loan and suggest that maybe the younger sister will do for the unpaid interest.
If you are doing the Camino on €50 a day plus air-fare then pay as little heed as you need to the lumpen who are trying to get by on €10 a day or less day-in, day-out, forever - never mind that rent is €# and new shoes are knock-off trainers bought from another desperado and that will break up in the wet; that their coats are about as waterproof as that paper napkin that you got with your €10 menu and that the last time they saw hot water and soap was the last time they got arrested and deported (apparently paying passengers have been known to object to the pong).

I am so happy that this particular gang has been busted. I am praying to my old guys that, please, just for once, someone takes care of the 'assets', gives them some hope of hope. But what I think is that what will happen is that they'll be photographed and finger-printed and sent 'home'. And they'll be 'home'; socially (sexually for some) compromised. Heavily in debt to gangs that have plenty more 'managers' and oh so many more assets...

For those who think I'm joking, or just Tinker banging on, again. I offer this:

It weren't no picnic
It weren't no picture post card
It was cold as 'taters in the mould
When the couple come lookin' for a room
Cold shouldered they were when the landlords looked at her
And saw the baby in her womb
Cold comfort they got
Was there a room? There was not
The town was crowded for a start
And it was cold, cold, cold, cold
Cold as a beggar boy's heart

It could have been in Jo'burg, Detroit. Chittagong, Calcutta
So long since it happened
I'm wrong! It happened yesterday
It happens now more and more...
Then somebody said he could lend them a shed
Crashing down on the floor
Just concrete and iron and a blanket to lie on
They'd been walkin' all day
And their home was such a long, long, long, long,
Long way away

They never heard no angels
Just the big police siren
When the light come fumblin' through the night
Her waters broke. The kid begun to come
"Is there a doctor?" "No fear,
Only poor people here
What would you pay him with, chum?"
There war ice on the door.
She sweated; he swore
He saw the head of his child
And then together him and her
Helped it into the world

There weren't no cattle watching
Just a rat and twenty cockroach
The kid cried. His dad soon had him washed and dried
When his mother woke she give him breast
He shared his parents' love
And he was heir to their poverty
It war all they possessed
And then the rumors got 'round
There were soldiers in town
With orders "Search and Destroy"
They didn't want to get wasted
They left town a bit hasty
The man, his wife and their boy, boy, boy, boy,
Young wife and new baby boy

He was theirs they made him
Out of love, hope, and suff'ring
God's son? Or just another one!
More like millions born to slave, starve, and die
Oh p'raps when he grows and sees how the world goes
He'll help to change it by and by
Let's hope the soldiers don't hang this new son of man
Like they done one before ...
Will he bring peace or a gun?
When his kingdom does come
It'll belong to the poor, poor, poor, poor.
The homeless and poor

from the singing of Frankie Armstrong and the blazing heart of John Pole.

Good journeys all. I'm to bed for the gods have laid me low.

 

[J F Gregory]

I understand what you are saying. I have been working in the Human Services ministry for 45 years and have helped the homeless, prostitutes, disowned and runaway children here in the U.S. I have testified in court against people traffickers, and help put them away and helped people who are victims reclaim their lives. I am glad the traffickers were caught also.

 

[Tincatinker]

@J F Gregory , my post really wasn't meant as personal criticism and I really hope you didn't take it as such. Respect to you for your labours.
I know my tribal roots and the stuff I handled as a kid run deep in my sensitivities. I grabbed your quote as a handy hook. And I guess that group you saw with the picnic was the masters, their mistresses and the minders who are all part of that exploitative web that you have worked amongst and against.

 

[MinaKamina]

Mafia tactics repeatedly denounced by EL CORREO GALLEGO

For years, EL CORREO has denounced over and over again the organized clans that use people to beg, mainly at the doors of churches, as well as at the entrances of supermarkets.

In fact, the beggars who tend to be at the entrances of food stores generally follow the same pattern: foreign women, on average 60 years of age, dressed in long skirts and headscarves and who spend many hours, sometimes the entire day in which the establishment is open, seated, practically without moving.

One of the favourite places for begging is the Cathedral of Santiago and its surroundings. In this area, it is even common to see these people begging, in positions of submission, barefoot or on their knees.

Behind many of these beggars, there are organized mafias, such as the one dismantled yesterday by the National Police, which are responsible for transporting beggars and distributing them through various points in the city. In the end, it is the networks that keep the money.



============================


Modern slavery


Slavery did not end with abolition in the 19th century. Instead, it changed its forms and continues to harm people in every country in the world.

Today slavery is less about people literally owning other people – although that still exists – but more about being exploited and completely controlled by someone else, without being able to leave.

You probably see people who are in slavery on a regular basis. They don’t have shackles, they might appear ordinary, but look closer and you might spot more worrying traits.

If you suspect that someone is in slavery, DO NOT confront them or cause a scene as this will likely lead to increased harm for them. Instead, inform relevant authorities or organisations working in the field.

 

[VNwalking]

For those who think I'm joking

You weren't, Tinca, and we know you weren't.
Your post was powerful. Thank you.

Instead, inform relevant authorities or organisations working in the field.

Who are? The police? These contacts? It would be good to know more.

"trafficking telephone" (900 10 50 90) and an email (trata@policia.es)

 

[MinaKamina]

Who are? The police? These contacts? It would be good to know more.

I include the links in my post. If it is blue, it is a link. 'Modern slavery' in my previous post goes to antislavery.org. The info there is not specifically about Spain, but it is a good starting point.

My modest objective is to warn against giving money to beggars. Giving money to beggars may feel like a good deed, but it probably isn't if you help to perpetuate slavery with your gift. Knowing about slavery may help to see the difference.

 

[Jodean]

They seem to be in every big city. Because I start my day in Frankfurt rather early, I often see the "cripples" strolling along, having their coffee sitting near rhe main square before heading off to their "positions" and becoming crippled. They are always begging in the same spot because these territories are strictly protected amongst the groups.
The city has very often given them areas to live and sleep, but within days, it is trashed. Even tho they set up portable toilets for them, they do their business every where, in front of offices, stores, on the sidewalks and throw their garbage and trash everywhere. Good neighbors, they aren't.
What is the solution? None of them look like they are starving with many of them obese, most have mobile phones. They pick pocket at the train stations and at festivals, with the young ones doing it mostly. They may get picked up, but are soon free because they are juveniles. The young girls that have to kneel all day make me the saddest.

 

[t2andreo]

I was in Santiago in 2015...2017 and in September this year and on all 3 occasions the same female was doing the " on the knees praying /begging thing " just round the corner from the cathedral square .This method of begging must be worthwhile for her or her handlers to still be doing it for what is now years .
Of course i don't know if this individual is one of the people referred to in the article, but now i suspect she is as last year i offered to buy her something to eat /drink and she refused .
When i passed this spot later in the evening , an older lady was in the exact same place ( in the rain )and again i offered to buy her some food and again she refused, she only wanted money .....she got none off me ...food yes..coffee yes...sympathy yes.......money no.
In the town where i now live i regularly buy homeless people coffee....sandwiches....a pair of gloves on one occasion ,but never money....i let them buy their own beer/ drugs .
Until we collectively stop giving money this problem will not go away ........just my opinion of course .

At the risk of incurring the moderators wrath (I do that from time to time, and have learned how to construct a post to avoid violating "the rules", at least I think so), the lady you mentioned, and the person who replaced her, are likely part of the same extended family who live in the Santiago suburbs. For the six years that I have journeyed to Santiago, several times annually, they are always there; the same people.

I have observed them closely from afar and can tell you that they even look (the the most part) like blood related family members, at least in my professional assessment. From my observation, I assess that there are at least three and possibly four generations working at the 'family business."

This said, I accept the input of those who state that this could be exploitation or some sort of coerced activity. But, I have watched this over perhaps 15 visits spread over six years. It is always the same people. A criminal pattern would see people in worse condition, serving only short periods of time in one place, before being moved on to another city or jobsite.

The only variation in the "staffing pattern" is when younger people join the group during the summer. In 2013, 2014, and 2016, when I walked from Sarria to Santiago on the Frances in May, I saw the young ladies and the "deaf / mute person" clipboard scam close-in to Santiago, but only in Saturday or Sunday. Then later, when I was volunteering at the Pilgrim office, I saw them again working the crowds in Santiago, almost daily. I have since seen them in Santiago each time I arrive after a Camino, and when I am working there several months later.

A male, evidently head of the family, drops them off in a van before 09:00 each morning in the area of Plaza San Clemente. I have observed this personally. Others, reliable friends in Santiago have told me that this fellow (the driver) has a normal job and the family lives in a nice home in the suburbs.

Each morning, they scurry to their preferred positions, always the same ones, surrounding the Cathedral. I chuckle as I watch the women complete dressing into their 'beggar outfits" as they scurry to their starting locations. They put on ratty sweaters. Put scarves on, and change footwear. Their good clothing, shoes, smartphones and jewelry goes into a soft bag.

Their kneeling pad comes out of that same soft cloth bag. Yes, most of those who kneel have well made pads to protect their knees.

Every two hours or so they change places, so as to give the impression that they are not there continuously. Only the most senior persons are assigned work locations involving a chair or stone wall to sit on.

During the summer months, or at peak tourist and pilgrim times, their younger family members (mostly college age females in my observation), apparently out of school for the summer months, join in the effort. In my observation and cursory investigation, these young ladies run the 'deaf - mute person / clipboard / petition scam' on pilgrims in towns near in to Santiago, especially on the Camino Frances. During the times of heaviest concentration of tourists at Santiago, you can find them on the street bordering the Cathedral to the south. That seems to be a main choke point that all tourists must pass through.

I am NOT passing judgment on any person or group. I am merely reporting my observations as reliable. I originally gave money, but only until my second trip, when I started to collect more data points and discern a pattern. Time has confirmed those early observations.

I even learned a new Spanish word..."estafa" (eh-staf-ah). It means scam. So, "esta la estafa" means "this is a scam." At least I think it does. If I mention it as I pass one of them, so they can overhear me, they always look startled at me with an 'uh-oh...busted' look. I smile back.

As someone who worked professionally for my government serving on federal level task forces for five years to detect, interrupt and recover missing and exploited children (see NCMEC.org), especially across international borders, I know what I am talking about. I know the signs and practices. I sincerely doubt if the family group I am referring to above was included in the round up mentioned in the news article above.

Could there be some connection between the crimes in the news story and this group? It is possible. But, I do not have enough information to make that assessment. I leave that to the currently-serving professionals.

All said, if you see someone in need, and can assess their need as authentic, be charitable. Personally, I confine my donations to places like Pilgrim House. They help any pilgrim in need. As regards other residents of Santiago who do not appear to be authentic pilgrims, I rely on the local social-welfare net and benefits to provide for their needs.

Hope this helps.

 

[Pelegrin]

There always have been beggars around the Cathedral. Some time ago a member put on the Forum some photos of Santiago from the 1920s. One of them (I coudn´t find it) showed a group of women, barefoot and badly dressed standing at Plaza do Obradoiro, who in my opinion were beggars.

 

[SabsP]

I
All said, if you see someone in need, and can assess their need as authentic, be charitable. Personally, I confine my donations to places like Pilgrim House. They help any pilgrim in need. As regards other residents of Santiago who do not appear to be authentic pilgrims, I rely on the local social-welfare net and benefits to provide for their needs.

Hope this helps.

I do not need to " assess " someone as authentic or charitable. For me a person in need is a person in need.
I am a great admirer of the French philosopher Emmanuel Levinas with his works on the Other with capital O who wrote some brilliant things about this theme.

http://braungardt.trialectics.com/philosophy/20th-century/emmanuel-levinas-1906-1995/levinas-face/

And trust me, even with the best social welfare system people in need can still get into serious trouble.
So even if I get " conned " sometimes by certain individuals I will always trust my empathy and compassion.

Another of my " guidelines " is the Parabel of the Good Samaritan.
A strong gospel indeed!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Good_Samaritan

 

[VNwalking]

What Sabine said.
There are bad people to be sure. So it's great that at least a few of the bad guys are (for the time being) out of circulation.
But without being naive, I try hard not to give in to the primal fear of people who are different, or less well off than I.
'Criminals' and 'different' are not at all the same thing.

 

[Kathar1na]

I applaud @MinaKamina to raise awareness about the issue of human trafficking and criminal networks who exploit their victims in the worst way. I, too, usually follow the often given advice to not give any money directly to a beggar on the street as I don't want to support the criminals who I suspect to be behind these beggars.

However, it is not as easy as it seems. I would certainly not call a Human Trafficking Helpline when I see a beggar in the street. And it has to be spelled out even when running the risk of being accused of ethnic discrimination: this concerns mainly beggars from Southeastern Europe and it has to do with the economic and social situation in mainly Bulgaria and Roumania, in particular the marginalised groups of the population, and with the limited or non-existant rights to receive support from public services if they make use of their freedom of movement and move to a more wealthy EU country. I have to agree with @sabine that there is no sure way to assess whether someone is "authentic" and "worthy" of our charitable deed - not even when this person fakes a disability. Below is an extract from a leaflet of a reputed German charity (Caritas) which I think is worth reading.

As to organised beggars from Southeastern Europe or the so-called "beggars mafia", there is just as little police evidence [...] as for the widespread accusation of "social tourism". At best, these are isolated cases. People from Southeastern Europe beg because they cannot find work in their homeland. They rely on begging as income for their families. The bitter poverty and the hopelessness in their homeland force them to do so. Their strong sense of family and group solidarity means that they travel together, live together and organise begging together. The equation of "organised" with "criminal" is not tenable. Nor do Porsche, Maserati or Mercedes belong to the means of transport of these beggars; rather it's the shopping cart or the bike.​

​

If you donate something to ten people and one of them is a criminal, then you can perhaps be ok with such a quota?​

​

So, in short, it's still up to you to decide.

BTW, the Caritas leaflet addresses also other issues and common questions. For example, that one should not be surprised when there is not much gratitude for other gifts than money. Maybe the person had already accepted 9 coffees and 5 bocadillos on that day ...

 

[Kathar1na]

As to what can we do: it's probably best to do something in one's home country and home town. Donate to charities or other organisations; volunteer; perhaps engage directly with people who beg in your street or near your place of work or where you shop. Where I live, it's not allowed to beg with infants or small children in tow. I know someone who regularly phoned the police when one of the begging women (there were several who regularly changed place with each other) was sitting in the street with an infant in her arm, especially when it was cold weather. She also gave the women toys that her grown-up kids no longer needed and she arranged for at least one of the kids of these women to be accepted in a local kindergarten and she paid for it.

 

[chinacat]

I have a real problem with the whole notion of ‘the deserving poor’ and even with the idea of ‘charitable’ deeds, at least in the sense in which it has been used in some posts in this thread.

If I meet another human being in need, and I am able to help by sharing what I have, once I have ‘given’ what I can, bearing in mind that this may be in any one, or more, of many different forms, not only material or financial ... it becomes the sole concern of the recipient. In other words, I neither desire nor expect any ‘control’ over how it is used ... giving anything, with ‘strings attached’, is not freely given, or shared.
I cannot be the judge of another’s choices. I don’t expect the ‘other’ to explain why they are in need, nor do I expect, or want, any ‘imbalance’ between us, for instance expressions of gratitude .. unless it is a quiet glance, in simple recognition of something passing between two human beings. (If the ‘other’ chooses to say a quiet, simple ‘thank you’, I would accept it as act of grace, in the spirit in which it was given.)

There are, of course, other times when we wish to ‘help’ ... for instance, natural disasters, the needs of those suffering from persecution or the effects of war, or drought, or any other ‘misfortune’ that we might be able to help mitigate, whether by direct action, financial help etc. Some organisations seem to be able to put the help they receive to immediate use; or perhaps there may be those already working, in small groups, with those seeking respite from the many and varied extremes that affect so many throughout our world.
Again ... any ‘help’ is best given directly to those who need it ... the ‘food aid’ shipped, amidst much publicity, to many areas, by western governments, is frequently old, surplus stock ... with the donor country’s name emblazoned on every bag/packet. Or ... money is ‘donated’ and doesn’t reach individuals in need of food, tools etc. because it has been administered by those in a position to divert it, or ‘dilute’ it.

There’s so much more, of course ... but what I’ve been trying to express is that in the act of ‘giving’ to those begging on the streets, (or in any of the other ways we ‘donate’) I feel that we are simply addressing an imbalance.
We have no ‘rights’ over how it is used, we give without any expectations, we make no judgements about whether or not it is ‘deserved’ and we are as conscious of the essential human dignity of the ‘other’ as we are of our own.

 

[gittiharre]

I agree. The whole thing is symptomatic of societies where the gap between rich and poor has widened. Based on greed and profits. Society should serve the population in an economic setting that is sustainable and nurturing.

 

[SabsP]

@chinacat : thank you.

Your sentence " simple recognition of something passing between two human beings ".

Yes. That!

 

[VNwalking]

If I meet another human being in need, and I am able to help by sharing what I have, once I have ‘given’ what I can, bearing in mind that this may be in any one, or more, of many different forms, not only material or financial ... it becomes the sole concern of the recipient. In other words, I neither desire nor expect any ‘control’ over how it is used ... giving anything, with ‘strings attached’, is not freely given, or shared.

Beautiful post, @chinacat. Thank you.

 

[notion900]

OK go to India, or Mexico, or Guatemala, or South Africa or a million other places, you will end up destitute yourself if every time you 'meet another human being in need and share what you have'.

 

[SabsP]

OK go to India, or Mexico, or Guatemala, or South Africa or a million other places, you will end up destitute yourself if every time you 'meet another human being in need and share what you have'.

Kindness , respect, empathy and acknowledging someone as a human does not cost anything.
I think it is clear by most of the posts on this thread that giving is not restricted by handing over money.

 

[VNwalking]

OK go to India, or Mexico, or Guatemala, or South Africa or a million other places, you will end up destitute yourself if every time you 'meet another human being in need and share what you have'.

@chinacat was not saying 'every time,' she said 'and I am able.'
That's different and implies discernment.
And she was including non-material generosity: respect and simple human kindness which do not cost a thing.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

OK go to India, or Mexico, or Guatemala, or South Africa or a million other places, you will end up destitute yourself if every time you 'meet another human being in need and share what you have'. Your statement shows that your exposure to poverty is extremely limited.

Or instead, don't 'go to India, Mexico, or Guatamala, or South Africa' but contribute to the ecological future of the generations after us by cutting back on unnecessary air travel and instead donate the money you would have spent to a charity that can work to alleviating poverty. @notion900, you do not know @chinacat's background, circumstances or experiences and your response seems extremely confrontational. @chinacat's post hit the button in terms of our common humanity, it is beautifully expressed, acknowledging difficulties and conflicts whilst avoiding the easy trap of cynicism. The old Quaker phrase of 'Live more simply, that others may simply live' might be idealistic but where would we be without ideals.
'We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.' Oscar Wilde.

 

[Kathar1na]

The whole thing is symptomatic of societies where the gap between rich and poor has widened. Based on greed and profits. Society should serve the population in an economic setting that is sustainable and nurturing.

This is not at all my view. It's impossible for me to back it up with hard facts but I'm convinced that globally as well as on national levels, people on the whole are better off than ever before. (I'm aware of the dangers of the growing gap between the very rich and the rest but that's a totally different story).

I also used think that here in Europe nobody has to starve and go without a roof over their head, and I think that is still true. As to the beggars from Southeastern Europe - because they are in a different category and they are the subject of this thread - it was only in recent years that I learnt to understand that they come from domestic situations of extreme poverty and often discrimination and utter hopelessness and that they can move to other EU countries but they have no right to get support from public funds (you have these rights only if you work, study, or have a pension or other funds to largely support yourself by your own financial means).

 

[William Marques]

Having lived in Africa I would defend notion900. It is an unpleasant lesson to learn but one learnt very quickly that you cannot support every person in need.

The OP's original point that organised and unorganised crime is involved in Santiago's begging etc is one not to ignore.

What organisations and charities we support are personal decisions based on our own history and outlook and I would not argue that my own choices are those that everyone else needs to follow.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

As the original post made clear 'exposure to poverty' is not confined to destinations reached by long haul flights. Here in the UK I have known families living in the basements of condemned buildings in Derby, no electricity, no water, no windows or doors. Or closer to home in very recent times, those 'sanctioned' (for those outside the UK this is when the benefits payable to a citizen are stopped, often for petty administrative reasons or to fill required quotas) and there is then no way of accessing payment for rent, electricity or heating. people are made homeless, their mental health suffers, they cannot get work because they have no permanent address, if they have an address at all. In winter in Scotland especially, being deprived of heating can be a matter of life or death but somehow the powers that be can sleep at night knowing this. There is never a time to limit our compassion for our fellow human beings. Of course we can rationalise why we are unable to help, but just to sit with someone and share eye contact and discuss the state of the world is a start to reconnecting as humanity. Friends who moved from London to New York remarked on how they frequently observed be-suited business men sitting down on steps and sharing a sandwich with a homeless person. No self-lacerating guilt attached to the disparity of economic position, simply a connection between one person and another.

 

[Kathar1na]

As the original post made clear 'exposure to poverty' is not confined to destinations reached by long haul flights. Here in the UK

True but isn't the question what do I do when I visit Santiago or New York or Delhi as a visitor where I'm not terribly familiar with local, regional or national policy and conditions, be it social or economic or otherwise.

At home, there is something else you can do: you can vote in local and national elections. Or even become a candidate perhaps. You don't have to aim for president straight away, local councillor (or whatever it's called where you live) might do to make a difference.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

True but isn't the question what do I do when I visit Santiago or New York or Delhi as a visitor where I'm not familiar with local, regional or national policy and conditions, be it social or economic or otherwise. At home, there is something else you can do: you can vote. Or become a candidate perhaps. You don't have to aim for president straight away, local councillor (or whatever it's called where you live) might do.

@Katharina it is a useful point to make and yes, I am involved in politics but my age is too great and my circumstances too limited to consider being a representative. For decades I have been involved in socio-political campaigns and elections, be they for women's rights or against nuclear weapons but right now envisaging how personally to make structural change defeats me, so I can only nibble at the edges and try to do my best in campaigning for and supporting those who might be elected on a platform of fairness and equality, the rest is down to me as a human being to make sure the many invisible gifts of the Camino that came home with me are shared with those other people I come into contact with.

 

[Kathar1na]

@SEB, I'm sure you know that my advice was meant as general advice, not addressed to anyone personally .

Plus it was cheap advice, I myself have never been a candidate for public office. But everyone can cast their vote, and, quite important imho, cast their informed vote. And not just in November.

 

[notion900]

Or instead, don't 'go to India, Mexico, or Guatamala, or South Africa' but contribute to the ecological future of the generations after us by cutting back on unnecessary air travel and instead donate the money you would have spent to a charity that can work to alleviating poverty.

A bit ironic posting this on a forum where pretty much everyone flies to and from their Camino, many long haul.

'We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.' Oscar Wilde.

What Oscar Wilde actually said about charity:

"The majority of people spoil their lives by an unhealthy and exaggerated altruism – are forced, indeed, so to spoil them. They find themselves surrounded by hideous poverty, by hideous ugliness, by hideous starvation. It is inevitable that they should be strongly moved by all this. The emotions of man are stirred more quickly than man’s intelligence; and, as I pointed out some time ago in an article on the function of criticism, it is much more easy to have sympathy with suffering than it is to have sympathy with thought. Accordingly, with admirable, though misdirected intentions, they very seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see. But their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it. Indeed, their remedies are part of the disease. They try to solve the problem of poverty, for instance, by keeping the poor alive; or, in the case of a very advanced school, by amusing the poor. But this is not a solution: it is an aggravation of the difficulty. The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible. And the altruistic virtues have really prevented the carrying out of this aim. Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good; and at last we have had the spectacle of men who have really studied the problem and know the life – educated men who live in the East End – coming forward and imploring the community to restrain its altruistic impulses of charity, benevolence, and the like. They do so on the ground that such charity degrades and demoralises. They are perfectly right. Charity creates a multitude of sins."

From The Soul of Man Under Socialism, 1891

 

[Albertagirl]

This is a beautiful and painful thread. Because I walk as a pilgrim and try to open my heart on camino, I sometimes find myself in a place recognized by @notion900 where the visible suffering of those around me and their demands to me that I should give them what they need become too much for me. I cannot heal the whole world, but I see those who put themselves forward as needy, especially in Santiago, which is a real attractant for beggars (and their minders). I want to say, "No! Enough already." Or even, "Too much." But I am not on pilgrimage to fulfill my desire to be comfortable. When I go again, I shall try to see all my companions as sharers of the Way, and to respond to their needs as I can, hopefully without being totally overwhelmed, as I sometimes felt on the Vdlp, where a local pilgrim was travelling to find a way to survive and considered me to be his best mark yet. Generosity to the desperate can put the giver in a very vulnerable position.

 

[Linainuk]

I was in Santiago in 2015...2017 and in September this year and on all 3 occasions the same female was doing the " on the knees praying /begging thing " just round the corner from the cathedral square .This method of begging must be worthwhile for her or her handlers to still be doing it for what is now years .
Of course i don't know if this individual is one of the people referred to in the article, but now i suspect she is as last year i offered to buy her something to eat /drink and she refused .
When i passed this spot later in the evening , an older lady was in the exact same place ( in the rain )and again i offered to buy her some food and again she refused, she only wanted money .....she got none off me ...food yes..coffee yes...sympathy yes.......money no.
In the town where i now live i regularly buy homeless people coffee....sandwiches....a pair of gloves on one occasion ,but never money....i let them buy their own beer/ drugs .
Until we collectively stop giving money this problem will not go away ........just my opinion of course .

In Sweden we have many, many, many beggars from Romania and Bulgaria. The reason they're here is that they are incredibly poor back home and they are desperate to provide for their families. Out of say... 10€ received, they send about 9€ home and spend 1€ on themselves. The more they spend on themselves, the longer they have to be away from their children, etc. They haven't come here in order to eat nice sandwiches that people give to them, or grilled chickens from the shop that cost say 8€ each. That could have fed their whole family for half a week back home.

Just trying to explain.

 

[MinaKamina]

One side of the coin of the form of slavery that happened (happens) on the Obraidoro is the exploitation of vulnerable human beings held in horrible conditions.
The other side of that same coin is the exploitation of the generosity of pilgrims, and the desire to do good.
There would be no slavery near the cathedral if the pilgrims did not part with their money. If they were forced to do so at gunpoint, everybody would recognize it for what it is. This crime comes disguised as charity, but it is still a crime, and a bigger one IMHO. The method used here is more vile, more cunning.

Evil is the word that comes to mind.

Realizing that your generosity and desire to do good are part of the problem and not the solution can be painful. Been there! It is my experience that beyond that pain liberty can be found and the energy to discover new ways.

 

[MinaKamina]

In Sweden we have many, many, many beggars from Romania and Bulgaria. The reason they're here is that they are incredibly poor back home and they are desperate to provide for their families. Out of say... 10€ received, they send about 9€ home and spend 1€ on themselves. The more they spend on themselves, the longer they have to be away from their children, etc. They haven't come here in order to eat nice sandwiches that people give to them, or grilled chickens from the shop that cost say 8€ each. That could have fed their whole family for half a week back home.

Just trying to explain.

There exists forced begging and human trafficking in Sweden too. If people are so poor in Romania and Bulgaria, how would they ever have the means to travel as far as Sweden? Would not happen without criminal organization.

 

[dany_yo]

Hello..I am from Romania.

Moderator Edit: Welcome @dany_yo.
It is good to have Romanian members of the Forum. I have enjoyed my visits to your country in the past.

However...some of your comments have been deleted. The Forum Rules prohibit any derogatory remarks directed at any ethnic or national groups as well as religion.

 

[SabsP]

Sorry to see some wonderful posts are deleted.
Time for me to rethink my position and posting on this forum.

 

[grayland]

The thread is closed now for further comments.
There have been numerous posts reported to the moderators. The moderators have attempted to keep the thread on an even keel....but then the moderators were reported..

Nothing further to be gained by keeping the thread open.