Bikes and Graffitti

[1elantra]

Hello all. Before I write, this post is not intended to start a huge brawl, so please bear with me !
Currently on the Camino and would like to know why bike riders do not find it neccessary to warn pilgrims that they are coming up behind or aside them. Nearly been bowled over a couple of times now. Riders PLEASE use a bell, shout out or scream, whichever works for you, but please show some courtesy.

2nd point: as pilgrims we are very lucky to have well marked trails, and markers with milage. Last few days the markers have been writen on by those who think its ok to take for granted and deface those markers. If anyone recognises the names on this marker, please let them know its not ok, and ask if they would like to retrace their steps to scrub them clean.....

Rant over and beun camino

 

[Grousedoctor]

As a cyclist, let me say that it is incumbent upon us to warn walkers that we are approaching from behind. At home or on a Camino, a bell or a verbal warning of the approach is required to ensure the safety of both the walker and the rider. Not to announce my approach to a walker would be irresponsible. Like you, I, too, have experienced riders not announcing themselves. Most dangerous! I will note, for the bike that I am renting this fall in Spain, a bell is included. However, it still has to conscientiously and regularly be used. With some walkers listening to music using listening devices, if I get no response to my bell warning, I always shout my approach. There’s room for everyone on the Camino, but cyclists need to exercise care not to surprise a walker and be the cause of an accident or someone’s injury. Walkers need to be alert, but a stealth approaching bike from behind them can be very difficult to detect until they are right on top of them. But, the bottom line is that the cyclist MUST announce their approach for everyone’s safety. Buen Camino to all!

 

[Pafayac]

A good manner for cyclists to warn their approach is to shout: "Buen Camino !!!" when arriving.

 

[wayfarer]

Most of the cyclists you will encounter on the Camino are not pilgrims but local cyclists out cycling their own trails, that is not excusing their behavior. I found that staying in the middle of the path forced them to call out or stop. Some come so fast that you cannot hear them in time. For the most part I rarely had problems with them.

 

[1elantra]

Most of the cyclists you will encounter on the Camino are not pilgrims but local cyclists out cycling their own trails, that is not excusing their behavior. I found that staying in the middle of the path forced them to call out or stop. Some come so fast that you cannot hear them in time. For the most part I rarely had problems with them.

You would think that would do it, but 2 days ago I was in the middle and 1 cyclist came each side of me. They dont even say sorry or acknowledge at it and in the month Ive been walking has continued to be a huge problem

 

[dbier]

Kinda like a few local non thinking cyclists in the US...the Mt Vernon trail can be exciting. It's pretty narrow in parts.

I always politely thank any cyclist that warns me...and coming from the Estados Unidos, I stay on the right pretty exclusively. Which drives the UK and Japanese cyclists crazy, I know...

I'm sorry that your experience has been so negative.

Buen Camino

 

[Former member 92300]

Most of the cyclists you will encounter on the Camino are not pilgrims but local cyclists out cycling their own trails, that is not excusing their behavior. I found that staying in the middle of the path forced them to call out or stop. Some come so fast that you cannot hear them in time. For the most part I rarely had problems with them.

Yes - many are not pilgrims and they often approach at a much faster pace which is even scarier when you don't hear them coming in advance. That said - I would never purposely stand in the middle of the path because then if they don't slow down or stop in time I am more likely to be injured (cyclist too - but if they didn't call out or slow down that is on them).

I will say a majority do alert you. And the locals said "Buen Camino" more often than the pilgrims.

 

[1elantra]

Kinda like a few local non thinking cyclists in the US...the Mt Vernon trail can be exciting. It's pretty narrow in parts.

I always politely thank any cyclist that warns me...and coming from the Estados Unidos, I stay on the right pretty exclusively. Which drives the UK and Japanese cyclists crazy, I know...

I'm sorry that your experience has been so negative.

Buen Camino

Seems to be cyclist mantra the world over.

 

[Skinnybiker]

Spoiler Alert: reply from a biker.

Complaining about cyclists on a hiking forum makes about as much sense as complaining about hikers on a bike forum - don't you think? The cyclists who are the source of this type of complaint are not on this forum and certainly don't read it. Respectfully I'd say you just gotta learn to live with it but if it's any consolation I for one will not ride the CF again; there are just too many peregrinos.

Now from a bikers POV we do not ride out of control, aiming for as many peregrinos as possible; no we ride under control avoiding every one on the trail. One of the big difficulties I found was the unpredictability of each & every peregrino when they heard the ting-ting of a bike-bell - which way would they jump? I have written this before but like vessels on the high seas the stand-on vessel (you) should maintain a steady course & speed while the give-way vessel (the bike / biker) should keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. So maintain a steady course and the bikers will go around you or slow down if there's insufficient room to pass.

PS Anyone know of any Spanish forums complaining of hikers on the trail, I'd love to read it?

Ting, ting y buen camino. Richard

 

[1elantra]

Spoiler Alert: reply from a biker.

Complaining about cyclists on a hiking forum makes about as much sense as complaining about hikers on a bike forum - don't you think? The cyclists who are the source of this type of complaint are not on this forum and certainly don't read it. Respectfully I'd say you just gotta learn to live with it but if it's any consolation I for one will not ride the CF again; there are just too many peregrinos.

Now from a bikers POV we do not ride out of control, aiming for as many peregrinos as possible; no we ride under control avoiding every one on the trail. One of the big difficulties I found was the unpredictability of each & every peregrino when they heard the ting-ting of a bike-bell - which way would they jump? I have written this before but like vessels on the high seas the stand-on vessel (you) should maintain a steady course & speed while the give-way vessel (the bike / biker) should keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. So maintain a steady course and the bikers will go around you or slow down if there's insufficient room to pass.

PS Anyone know of any Spanish forums complaining of hikers on the trail, I'd love to read it?

Ting, ting y buen camino. Richard

Actually its a camino forum, and it was a courteous request, not a complaint, but anyway great to hear there will be one less high speed biker to worry about.

 

[VNwalking]

Complaining about cyclists on a hiking forum makes about as much sense as complaining about hikers on a bike forum - don't you think

Venting has its uses.

from a bikers POV we do not ride out of control, aiming for as many peregrinos as possible;

Bicigrinos are a generally courteous bunch. So yes. From that POV. But having been run off the camino by local mountain bike groups several times, I have the distinct feeling that they really don't give a...you know. In fact sometmes their riding feels distinctly aggressive.

So maintain a steady course and the bikers will go around you or slow down if there's insufficient room to pass.

Very good to know - thanks @Skinnybiker. I tend to jump out of the way.

 

[Flatlander]

Actually its a camino forum, and it was a courteous request, not a complaint, but anyway great to hear there will be one less high speed biker to worry about.

Can I ask where you have read in @Skinnybiker 's post that they are a high speed biker?
Is there any chance that when you have arrived in Spain with a negative view of cyclists (or as I prefer to call them, people on bicycles)?

Can I ask what they have said that is so disagreeable to merit your pretty uncharitable response?
There is some very sound advice such as to keep a steady course.

Seems to be cyclist mantra the world over.

I reported that post because can only see negativity in it. The mods disagree.
What is this "mantra" the world over? Please. Spell it out for me.
Where in the world, specifically, does this apply?
Can you provide some evidence for it?

I ask because I've travelled a bit (on my bike) and my experience is that outside of the English-speaking World the attitudes to people on bikes can be very, very different. The Dutch, for example don't have one word to describe people on bikes - they have two. Their language allows them to differentiate between more performance cyclists and those who are more utilitarian or recreational. It's a pity that English can't. Therefore, we should perhaps be more careful in our use of it.

I note that you are from Australia, a beautiful and wondrous country but one with a stong bent against cycling. You are travelling in a country that is beautiful and wondrous in very different ways but with a very strong focus on sustainable travel and shared spaces. (Have you not noticed the "Scooter lBitz"? )

Perhaps you have brought one thing in your "mental pack" from home that is not serving its use?

 

[Flatlander]

Venting has its uses.

While venting can have its uses and can be healthy there is always the matter of context and audience. I left this forum for several years due to a constant, low level disdain shown towards people on bikes.

I particularly object to the term "cyclist" because in the English Speaking World it is normally accompanied by a negative. "---------- cyclists". Fill in the blanks yourself.
There are jackasses and ignoramuses all over the place, and yes, some of them are on bikes. When that gets flipped, it can be dangerous because then everyone on a bike is a jackass and ignoramus.
I have received abuse, had things thrown at me, had a window wound down so a dog could have a go at my head and been been deliberately run off the road several times for no other apparent reason than I was travelling by bicycle. (Interestingly, all in one country)

Those people didn't know me, where I was from, where I was going. The only thing they could tell about me was that I was a "cyclist".

Forgive me, but I will continue to call out ill-placed venting.

I have the distinct feeling that they really don't give a...you know. In fact sometmes their riding feels distinctly aggressive.

You're probably right. And it may be understandable.

I'd imagine there are a lot of folk who see much of the Camino (the Frances, at least) as for Pilgrims - and by that I mean on foot. Therefore, a lot of normal roadsense goes out the window, aided by a normal lack of traffic.
However, most of the route is public road and subject to the same rules as busier road and the Camino is open to all, even "cyclists".

Not all the people following the routes to Santiago behave well. Some "pilgrims" display an attitude of "Oh, but I'm a Pilgrim, I can do what I like because my travel is so much better", most notably evidenced by the long line of Pilgrims I passed, armed with plastic bags, sporting fresh looking shoes, heading to the lighthouse at Finisterre for a ceremonial burning despite all the signs and pleadings not to.

Last year, as a bit of an experiment, I rode some of the CF backwards. I recall one chap who made a point of walking on the "wrong" side of the road. Why, I don't know, but when I stopped to let him past I detected a glint of triumph. Another girl I had to wave my arms in front of her to advise her that she was blocking a car.

The point is, that from a local's point of view these are their roads. To be brutally honest, I'm quite surprised at the welcome wanderers do get in Spain! I'm coming to the conclusion that they have the ability not to paint the many with the same paint as the few.

If there is one lesson to be taken from a Camino might I suggest this as a very useful one?

 

[VNwalking]

I have received abuse, had things thrown at me, had a window wound down so a dog could have a go at my head and been been deliberately run off the road several times for no other apparent reason than I was travelling by bicycle. (Interestingly, all in one country)

Those people didn't know me, where I was from, where I was going. The only thing they could tell about me was that I was a "cyclist".

Forgive me, but I will continue to call out ill-placed venting.

...My reaction to the abuse.
Sadly believable.

The point is, that from a local's point of view these are their roads

Yes, roads of course.
Any walker who's in the road thonking it's theirs to hog has left their brain at home. Unfortunately all too common.

But where I have been run off the path was in each case off-road. On paths originally meant for feet, not wheels. Mountain bikers don't easily mix with anyone in such places.

Of course those trails are Spanish, too. Not that we pilgrims own them. But we are the majority. So why do some mountain bikers assume they should have the right of way when they are 'invading' paths that were neither desghed nor meant for them? (Please note the bolded qualifier. It is not everyone. And I realize this debate isn't strictly a camino debate, but is elsewhere too. So the topic is bigger than thus limited thread.)

I'm coming to the conclusion that they have the ability not to paint the many with the same paint as the few.

If there is one lesson to be taken from a Camino might I suggest this as a very useful one?

Yes. And very true.

 

[Bradypus]

But where I have been run off the path was in each case off-road. On paths originally meant for feet, not wheels. Mountain bikers don't easily mix with anyone in such places.

When the off-road sections of the Camino were chosen and marked in the 1980s there were very few mountain bikes. The ratio of cyclists to walkers travelling to Santiago then was higher than today but there was little conflict because cyclists mostly used lightweight road touring bikes which could not follow the rough paths. The problem more recently is that the type of bike now favoured allows cyclists to make use of paths which previous generations avoided. And numbers of walkers have increased massively. A bad combination.

 

[VNwalking]

A bad combination

Very.
Especially when the bikers feel entitled to own said path.

Honestly, it puzzles me that they come on camino paths at all given the volume of foot traffic, and the many available alternatives for off-road rides where there are few or no walkers.

 

[Flatlander]

It's not nice to be run off the road. You have my sympathy, genuinely.

But where I have been run off the path was in each case off-road. On paths originally meant for feet, not wheels. Mountain bikers don't easily mix with anyone in such places.

It's interesting and I don't want to jump down the road of what is legal and what isn't nor the purpose of a path or not but I'd encourage some reflection on what the bolded part means. (And I think you missed "some" )

There are a lot of vehicle drivers who assume (wrongly) that I have no right to be on the(ir) road. I'd be surprised if there aren't some people on bikes who think that way too. People are people.

Perhaps the trick is not to think about who has a right, or not, who has a priority, or not, but instead to figure out the best way for each of us to do what we want to do in the best way for us and others.

If I'm struggling to sleep, every noise is a problem, every noise raises my heartbeat and takes me further from sleep. Another night I'd sleep through a riot. Why? Why is my brain processing the same things differently on different nights?

But we are the majority

"We" may be a majority, but a majority of that majority are guests and visitors.
It is only fair to attempt to understand local customs and habits, no?
I also wonder if we may be the "majority" at certain times of the day or year?

So why do some mountain bikers assume they should have the right of way when they are 'invading' paths that were neither desghed nor meant for them?

Going back to the careful use of language, "invading" is pretty strong, wouldn't you agree?

Unfortunately, there are many styles of bike (and bike riding) and many of the offroad routes in Spain are perfectly suitable for them. In fact, there are competitions on some of those very trails. The World Cup in CX biking is currently taking place in the south.

The fact is, to the best of my knowledge (and I've travelled quite a bit in Spain on my bike) there are very, very few prohibitions for bikes.

Now, none of my points are addressing the negative behaviour of some people on bikes, but it would help if some people who decry bikes on the same paths as them try to understand that the bike has as much right to be there as they themselves do. They may not like that fact, but it's a fact.

In regards to addressing the poor behaviour of some people on bikes, it would be helpful to understand that there are at least two types of people on bikes (and possibly more);

The first, are the actual bicigrinos, those doing the Pilgrimage towards Santiago. Just like their pedestrian brethren, some are more interested in the "holiday & tourism" side while others take a different view.
Fora, like this one, can be a useful way to communicate with them. Not lecture them. Not berate them. Not insult them. Communicate with them.

I am on record here as being very much in favour of a type of code of conduct for bicigrinos. (One for some foot pilgrims wouldn't go amiss either ). Just to cover some things that may be new, even for experienced people on bikes. A discouragement of groups riding together perhaps, (in my experience groups of people often exhibit the worst forms of behaviour in public - nothing to do with riding a bike), or a suggestion for a maximum speed, a minimum passing distance, suggestions to ride later as simple, unexpanded examples. A standard way to warn of an advancing bike. (And a standard way for walkers to respond!). Not everyone would be aware of it, not everyone would follow it, but it would be a start.

As an aside, people from different cultures have different reactions to bicyle bells. For some it's a friendly introduction and for others it's a declaration of war. I've met one man who has trained his dog to react (and not in a good way!) to bicycle bells. Communication between people on bikes and those not can be difficult. Yet I managed to overcome a snarling dog and have an interesting chat.

The second group are locals. I don't think many read these fora so there is little hope for any of us reaching them from here.
To be quite honest, I can think of very few countries in the world where foreigners demanding that locals moderate how they behave, or where they relax to satisfy the visitors will go down very well.

It speaks a little of entitlement, another word often used against people on bikes.

I have had one negative interaction on the road in Spain when a VW campervan pulled out in front of me. I know the driver (foreign to Spain) saw me because he gave me the finger as he did it. On a heavily loaded bike on a quiet road he nearly caused me a nasty fall.

Why did he do this? I have no idea. But I'm pretty sure that low level, anti cyclist language played its part.

You may not like it but I have just as much right to be in most of the same places as you on my bike.
Please refrain from suggesting that I don't and that I'm "invading" if we happen to meet.
Thank you.

 

[Flatlander]

Apologies, it seems some cross posting occurred

Especially when the bikers feel entitled to own said path.

Entitled to be there? In most cases, yes.
Entitled to own? No. Not at all.

Honestly, it puzzles me that they come on camino paths at all given the volume of foot traffic, and the many available alternatives for off-road rides where there are few or no walkers.

It's puzzling for some people on these fora that so many want to do the CF this year when according to some, it's threatening to break under the numbers of travellers.

It's well and good not to understand someone's motivations. In fact, it's pretty normal. I'd suggest a little effort to try to understand wouldn't go amiss.

For myself, I followed as much of the "walker's path" (I hate that term) as much as possible.
I was already on the road for several weeks when I arrived in St, Jean and while I'd planned to take the road to Roncevalles, on the morning I couldn't resist the lure of (mainly pushing) my bike along with that exciting, hopeful and totally inspirational rag tag bunch of Pilgrims.
I used my bell, I called out, I pushed and walked and I spoke to many different foot pilgrims along the way. I shared water and food (jellybeans mainly). I even passed messages along from one person to another. When the path was beside the road, I took the road. When the path was busy I often waited. I was in no rush. I berated one group of people on bikes for going too fast and I was attacked (well my bike was) by one frustrated pelegrina who seemed to be of the opinion that all people on bikes are the same.
I sometimes rode the road in the morning, doubled back and took the path later in the day. Or explored the area around where I was before setting off in the pedestrians footsteps.
After Sarria, I took to hiding out in the woods with my book and some food until the worst had passed.

I wanted to be on the path, I imagine, for many of the same reasons most of the people there were - to be walking in a kind of communion with all those who did similar for centuries and for the human camaraderie. That is not available on the road. I know. I did some of the road.

I was most amused to be referred to as a cheat by a lady availing of pack transport and using a taxi to supplement her daily 5km walk. My journey was in excess of 7000km and I did it all with pedal power (except for a horizontal stretch in France to get out of Paris).

Interestingly, I loved my wanderings around Spain on my way home after my Camino in a very different way. Albergues, communal meals, Pilgrim menus are only one aspect of that part of Spain. There is a whole lot more. A bike is a great way to see, taste, smell and feel it all.

 

[VNwalking]

It's puzzling for some people on these fora that so many want to do the CF this year when according to some, it's threatening to break under the numbers of travellers.

@Flatlander, just to be clear.
What puzzles me is not that bicycling pilgrims would want to follow the marked camino. That makes total sense to me. And the way you managed that is commendable.

The camino is a pilgrimage route, by usage and designation. Most of us are on foot, some of us are on bikes, and a few have horses or donkeys.

So I have no quarrel with pilgrims on bicycles and can see both sides having once been a triatlete and avid cyclist myself. It's just that the mixed use does not work out well when the cyclists are not careful. In my experience, bicigrinos are quite sensitive to foot pilgrims. It's the local mountain bikers who can create 'interesting' experiences.

These are the ones who have run me and others off the camino - in places that are narrow dirt paths. They can ride lots of places - but choose to go to the one trail guaranteed to have throngs of walkers?
Yeah. I'm just puzzled by that.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I think we are discussing more about human nature here then about bicyclists and walkers.

Some people will bend over backwards to be considerate of their fellow humans and some people are oblivious or purposefully aggressive.

 

[David Tallan]

Complaining about cyclists on a hiking forum makes about as much sense as complaining about hikers on a bike forum - don't you think?

Except this is a pilgrim forum, not a hiking forum. You aren't going to see a lot of threads here discussing the many non-pilgrimage hiking routes of the world. I wouldn't come here to discuss hiking the Bruce Trail, our local 890 km trail. If you see more people talking about walking than cycling, that's because there are more pedestrians than cyclists on the Caminos, so it shouldn't be surprising that there are more of them posting here. But folks are certainly welcome to start and contribute to threads on the advantages, challenges, and logistics of cycling a Camino.

 

[Flatlander]

It's not my intention to keep throwing fuel on a fire but......

It's just that the mixed use does not work out well when the cyclists are not careful.

There's an assumption in there -the cyclist is not being careful. That's taking someone's behaviour and putting a motivation to it.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure most people on bikes are pretty careful. They don't want to crash nor fall off. From experience a fall on one of those gravelly roads can be very, very painful.

There's a perception issue at play here, I think.
A cyclist passing too close feels dangerous to a pedestrian.
Our brain gets a fright.
We don't like feeling frightened so our brain looks to (quickly) alter that feeling.
"That cyclist doesn't give a damn about me" is often a common response (and no-one likes feeling like that)
Anger can often be the result.

As a person on a bike I have had that experience many, many times, generated both by vehicles and other cyclists.

More than once I have been passed on all sides by groups of maybe 20 cyclists.
It's scary and not very pleasant, at all.
But, the thing is (and I appreciate its not the easiest to process) these guys'n'gals are used to riding in such close proximity and most of the danger exists only in my head.
It is still far from pleasant though.

They can ride lots of places - but choose to go to the one trail guaranteed to have throngs of walkers?
Yeah. I'm just puzzled by that.

Trying to understand the "why" of people's actions can be a frustrating task. Hell, I don't know why I do some of the things I do.

The only way we'll know why someone does something is to ask them. Anything else is just projecting our own thoughts, feelings and experiences onto them.

I've learned over time to divert my energy from wondering why someone is doing something and diverting it towards finding a solution or mitigating the harm.
It's not easy.

Off the top of my head some reasons could be:
It's a route, or part of a route used in a race and therefore is used for practice.
It has a sufficient level of services in terms of water or food (after all, that's why we're there!)
It has a particular profile or feature or features that the cyclists want to master.
It is a nice part of the country to cycle through.
And I wouldn't be surprised if some got some kind of a thrill out of scaring the bejaysus out of pedestrians.

As a practical step in the right direction is there anything to be said for reaching out to the relevant cycling organisations and local clubs to find out what they favour certain sections and then looking to see how more harmony could be achieved?

Ultimately, most of us should be conscious of the fact that we are visitors.

 

[VNwalking]

these guys'n'gals are used to riding in such close proximity and most of the danger exists only in my head.

I've ridden in pelotons. This was...if I didn't jump out of the way damn fast there would have been a crash. The danger was not perceived.
I actually do think some of this may be happening - scattering pilgrims like chickens:

And I wouldn't be surprised if some got some kind of a thrill out of scaring the bejaysus out of pedestrians.

But of course I have no idea. Because you're very right about this -

Anything else is just projecting our own thoughts, feelings and experiences onto them.

Bottom line is we all need to share the way. Even if some parties seem to be dangerous maniacs. Whether they are or not actually doesn't change that need, but it does make it harder to be charitable.

I think you have a very good point. Anger is often on top of unacknowledged fear, for all of us. Process the latter, and the former isn't an issue.

After my close calls, whenever a cyclist passes too fast and too close for comfort, I notice the clear and sharp desire to push them over. Obviously, I would never do that...but it's worth watching. Because always under that is shakiness that needs to be felt.

 

[Flatlander]

This was...if I didn't jump out of the way damn fast there would have been a crash. The danger was not perceived.

Apologies. I was speaking in a more general sense, not attempting to diminish or reclassify your experience.

Bottom line is we all need to share the way.

In a nutshell, yes.

We're all different, we all have different ways of coping and dealing with things. What works for me may not for another.

The thing is, someone who behaves arrogantly or selfishly on a bike most likely behaves in the same manner off the bike. A bike is incidental to the behaviour. (Mind you, I can think of people whose personality can change depending on what they are doing )

I would ask anyone who has made it this far on the thread to consider that the behaviour of one is not the behaviour of all and that grouping all the different people and types of people that travel by bike under a negative stereotype is not only unhelpful and counterproductive but can be dangerous for people on bikes.

I notice the clear and sharp desire to push them over.

A perfectly understandable and human reaction.
I recall being confronted by an angry peligrina near the end of my own Camino who approached my bike and proceeded to attack it with one of her hiking sticks!
She'd had a scary experience with some bikers earlier, saw me pull up at a fountain, got up from her seat on a terrace, picked up her pole and went for my poor bike. Thankfully, she did no damage so we were able to talk it out.
I have no idea where my calmness came from on that occasion but it's a lesson I refer to frequently. I haven't always been so calm.

I have enjoyed teasing out the points here in a respectful exchange.

Thank you.

 

[Stivandrer]

I, for one, do not know exactly what is expected of me, when I am shouted at from behind.
Good traffic logic is for cyclists to use the bell, which not many seem to use/ or to have as the case might be.

What is being shouted?
"coming on your left"?, if it is in English
- but cyclist are also French, Spanish or Italian and I cannot for the life of me get a meaning of a shout in such a small span of time.
So, What I am forced to do is to stay Exactly where I am, in order Not to walk into the line of whichever route the overtaker is heading. Even if it is in the middle of the track......
Sometimes I get a scolding in passing, but not often.
If I turn around to see who is coming, I´ll waste precious time And will present a double sized silhouet looked sideways, and double likely to be hit...

 

[good_old_shoes]

I, for one, do not know exactly what is expected of me, when I am shouted at from behind.
Good traffic logic is for cyclists to use the bell, which not many seem to use/ or to have as the case might be.

What is being shouted?
"coming on your left"?, if it is in English
_ but cyclist are also French, Spanish or Italian and I cannot for the life of me get a meaning of a shout in such a small span of time.
So, What I am forced to do is to stay Exactly where I am, in order Not to walk into the line of whichever route the overtaker is heading. Even if it is in the midlle of the track......
Sometimes I get a scolding in passing, but not often.
If I turn around to see who is coming, I´ll waste precious time And will present a double sized silhouet looked sideways, and double likely to be hit...

Yep, that's the problem. Shouting doesn't help if you don't have enough time to react and / or don't know how you're expected to react to begin with.

I do like the cyclists just like any other people on the trail, and found most of them to be very respectful. On longer walks outside of Spain I often walked on the bike paths because they were easier to walk and more direct than the hiking paths. I'm sure some cyclists were annoyed but most were really nice and I tried to step aside when someone wanted to take over. With some respect and common sense we can share the same paths I think.

I'm a bit traumatized now, though, because just what you described happened to me on the last few meters before walking into Santiago last year. We were two pilgrims walking next to each other on a path that was not very wide, both with giant monster backpacks with camping gear, and I was also carrying a cat in a pet carrier, so the bike could not pass without at least one of us stepping aside, and we couldn't move very quickly.

The cyclist shouted, I tried to turn around to look where he was coming from exactly and jump to the side at the same time, but of course it didn't work because he only shouted but didn't slow down at all, and I jumped to the wrong side, too. So he ran me over at full speed and we both ended up on the ground. The cyclist got hurt. He apologized, and I didn't have a scratch, but it was still scary. Now when I'm walking and I hear a bike coming from behind I always feel the urge to jump off the path into the bushes!

 

[VNwalking]

recall being confronted by an angry peligrina near the end of my own Camino who approached my bike and proceeded to attack it with one of her hiking sticks!
She'd had a scary experience with some bikers earlier, saw me pull up at a fountain, got up from her seat on a terrace, picked up her pole and went for my poor bike. Thankfully, she did no damage so we were able to talk it out.
I have no idea where my calmness came from on that occasion but it's a lesson I refer to frequently. I haven't always been so calm.

Woah. That's intense. I'm sorry that happened to you @Flatlander. She'd clearly lost it. (My desire to push people over is instantaneous when they pass me too close and fast and goes away just as fast.)

What I am forced to do is to stay Exactly where I am, in order Not to walk into the line of whichever route the overtaker is heading

This is exactly what @Skinnybiker suggested above. Was news to me as a tactic when being overtaken on a reasonably wide path.

But then there's @good_old_shoes's awful experience. If they'd not jumped, might they have missed a collision? It's not easy to know what to do.

I have enjoyed teasing out the points here in a respectful exchange.

Thank you.

Same! Gracias.

 

[WGroleau]

Hello all. Before I write, this post is not intended to start a huge brawl, so please bear with me !
Currently on the Camino and would like to know why bike riders do not find it neccessary to warn pilgrims that they are coming up behind or aside them. Nearly been bowled over a couple of times now. Riders PLEASE use a bell, shout out or scream, whichever works for you, but please show some courtesy.

This is not the first such complaint that has puzzled me in this forum.

1. In my 500+ kilometers walking on Camino (and even more on other trails), this has NEVER happened to me (and I've been passed by many cyclists).

2. In my 500+ kilometers biking on Camino (and even more on other trails), when approaching a walker or another cyclist, I used my bell and announced my approach loudly in two or more languages. Usually, there is no indication that I was heard, even from people not using headphones/earbuds. I always slow down and pass them at close to their speed, and half the time they jump aside quite startled.

 

[WGroleau]

… the unpredictability of each & every peregrino when they heard the ting-ting of a bike-bell - which way would they jump? …

Which is why in addition to warnings (usually ineffective), I slow down to their speed before passing.

 

[WGroleau]

I have received abuse, had things thrown at me, had a window wound down so a dog could have a go at my head and been been deliberately run off the road several times for no other apparent reason than I was travelling by bicycle. (Interestingly, all in one country)

My experience in USA is that there is some hostility by motorists toward cyclists. And in my opinion, much of that is inspired by the sizable minority of people on bicycles who seem to believe they are exempt from all traffic laws—not even slowing down at red lights or intersections, and riding on the wrong side of the road (or on sidewalks when clearly marked bike lanes are available).

I said "minority" because many of us do not behave that way. So no one should accuse me of stereotyping.

 

[Flatlander]

So don't accuse me of stereotyping.

Wouldn't dream of engaging.

 

[Karl Oz]

Can I ask where you have read in @Skinnybiker 's post that they are a high speed biker?
Is there any chance that when you have arrived in Spain with a negative view of cyclists (or as I prefer to call them, people on bicycles)?

Can I ask what they have said that is so disagreeable to merit your pretty uncharitable response?
There is some very sound advice such as to keep a steady course.


I reported that post because can only see negativity in it. The mods disagree.
What is this "mantra" the world over? Please. Spell it out for me.
Where in the world, specifically, does this apply?
Can you provide some evidence for it?

I ask because I've travelled a bit (on my bike) and my experience is that outside of the English-speaking World the attitudes to people on bikes can be very, very different. The Dutch, for example don't have one word to describe people on bikes - they have two. Their language allows them to differentiate between more performance cyclists and those who are more utilitarian or recreational. It's a pity that English can't. Therefore, we should perhaps be more careful in our use of it.

I note that you are from Australia, a beautiful and wondrous country but one with a stong bent against cycling. You are travelling in a country that is beautiful and wondrous in very different ways but with a very strong focus on sustainable travel and shared spaces. (Have you not noticed the "Scooter lBitz"? )

Perhaps you have brought one thing in your "mental pack" from home that is not serving its use?

There are quite a few rhetorical questions here Flatlander. Appreciate you are exercised by this issue but there are less grating ways of pursuing this discussion.

By the way, I am also from Australia, and a former cyclist. In my opinion there is no 'strong bent' against cyclists. In fact, cycle paths are being created increasingly frequently. There is certainly occasional antagonism between motorists and cyclists (and it goes both ways) and this is due to the often clumsy division of thoroughfares into car and bike lanes. Holland, like Denmark, is a flat country and is in the fortunate situation of having a long-established and well-developed discrete system of bike paths. Lucky them, I say.

 

[Flatlander]

There are quite a few rhetorical questions here Flatlander.

There is one question that could be considered rhetorical. The others are genuine questions asked in earnest.

Appreciate you are exercised by this issue but there are less grating ways of pursuing this discussion.

Exercised? I have been run off the road, nearly been seriously injured and had dogs set on me for no other reason than I was riding a bicycle. Stereotyping is a huge factor in that.

As for grating?
I was replying to:

Seems to be cyclist mantra the world over.

Stereotyping at its finest.

I can't change anyone's opinion. Only they can.
From my own experience, changing my opinion comes from thinking about a subject. One of the best ways of thinking about a subject is to answer questions on it.

In my opinion there is no 'strong bent' against cyclists. In fact, cycle paths are being created increasingly frequently.

Unfortunately, I wasn't referring to cycling infrastructure.
Perhaps this reading will explain my point of view a bit better (2022 Ipsos International Survey on attitudes to Cycling

Holland, like Denmark, is a flat country and is in the fortunate situation of having a long-established and well-developed discrete system of bike paths. Lucky them, I say.

I'll probably grate again, but there is nothing lucky about the attitude to cycling in NL. The cycling attitudes and infrastructure of today was something fought for in the 70's and voted for consistently up to the present day.
It is a complex discussion and being flat is only one aspect of the overall picture. Believe me, it can be extremely cold, wet and windy.
Personally, I'd rather climb mountains on my bike than attack a Dutch headwind.
There are no helmet laws in NL, yet checkpoints are regularly set up to check on lights. In the case of a collision, a car is presumed at fault unless there is compelling evidence otherwise - the same applies in reverse to cyclist and pedestrian. Like cars, the use of a mobile phone is prohibited when in motion and enforced. Take your bike onto a road where it is not supposed to be and you will know about it in no uncertain terms!
More reading here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands

I have yet to go off on an adventure on my bike and not meet people who look at me wistfully and express a wish to do something similar.
For every single obstacle they can think of I can offer a solution;
Not fit? Train or travel short days
No navigation skills? GPS can be a wonder
No mechanical skills? YouTube is a wonder for the basics, besides, there are bike-shops everywhere
No money? Cycling does not have to be expensive
No time? A weekend overnighter can be a lot of fun with the right attitude and many, many people live a second life exploring the world on their bikes after they retire. Covid has been a boon for many to rediscover the areas close to home.
Except one.
The only, absolutely only, obstacle, I cannot offer an answer for is the intangible fear so many have of getting on a bike in the first place.

How many people on this forum had similar doubts before their first Camino?
Imagine if there was a constant, low level narrative in the world in general about how dangerous the Camino was? Having done various Caminos how would you respond to that?

I will say it again because it is worth repeating.
In my experience an anti-cyclist "mantra" is very much an English language thing and possibly a developed-world thing too.
Tell most people in the US that you are cycling across their country and they will certify you insane. Cross the border into México and their eyes will fill with delight and wish you a good journey.

Removing the human from "cyclist" is not a good thing.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

Tell most people in the US that you are cycling across their country and they will certify you insane

No, we won’t.

 

[Flatlander]

No, we won’t.

With respect, that is my experience.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

With respect, that is my experience.

You’ve spoken to over 330 million Americans and we all said the same thing - incredible.

 

[Flatlander]

You’ve spoken to over 330 million Americans and we all said the same thing - incredible.

Of course I haven't.

But I have taken a meandering course across the US and every day encountered shock at my plans.
Not from everyone, but from most people.

I wasn't trying to be perjorative.

In comparison to other countries it is a different attitude. In places like France or Spain, the "average Joe or Josephine" has been more exposed to long distance bike travel than their US cousins. In NL, I'm considered something of a "fake bike traveller" because I haven't gone to China and have no desire to go.

We have all seen on the Camino how something can happen (a movie, a book etc.) and the popularity of the Camino is raised in a particular country because a nebulous idea has been made real. The more people who do it and return, the more the knowledge grows and the more the participation rises. It's an ever increasing circle.
Imagine if there was a constant, low level message of hostility towards Pilgrims to counteract that.
Many, many people on these fora and elsewhere would never have discovered a Camino for themselves.

P.S: I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth

 

[dick bird]

Are we getting anywhere with this? The topic seems to have been thoroughly aired and it seems established beyond doubt that many cyclists behave very well although others do not and that pilgrims and walkers do not always know how to react when warned of the approach of a bicycle and some also behave unreasonably. Also, there are motorists who behave aggressively towards cyclists but the majority don't (although this, while true, has little or no relevance to the camino). It is also pretty clear that no-one is going to move from their firmly entrenched position in the face of the most persuasive arguments and evidence. So, unless there is something new to add, I am going to close this thread, but not just yet. I will leave it open if anyone can give me a good reason to.

 

[Flatlander]

I agree with your proposal to shut the thread unless there is something new to discus and I don't wish to appear to be wanting the last word but....

Also, there are motorists who behave aggressively towards cyclists but the majority don't (although this, while true, has little or no relevance to the camino)

I think it has some relevance to the camino.
When it is suggested that people on bikes should always take the road it should be remembered that that does carry some risks for those people on bikes.

It's not that long ago that a person on a bike was killed and another seriously injured on the CF road route.

Admittedly, Spanish roads are generally populated with considerate drivers, well aware of the laws. However, the most popular tourist routes are more heavily populated with drivers from other jurisdictions who may not have the same attitude and certainly lack familiarity with the route. And a Camino route is usually a popular tourist route. It can be a bit of a double whammy. In my experience, it is less of an issue on the open road, far more of a one approaching urban areas.

I have seen "new" campervan drivers attempting to park up in generous spaces and it has freaked me out to think that I might be sharing the roads with people who are so unaware of the size of their vehicles.


Also:

It is also pretty clear that no-one is going to move from their firmly entrenched position

When I first moved to NL I was virulently anti-cyclist. My cough has softened, somewhat, in the meantime
Nobody needs to change their opinion but a respectful exchange of views is the only way to foster understanding.

 

[Karl Oz]

Are we getting anywhere with this? The topic seems to have been thoroughly aired and it seems established beyond doubt that many cyclists behave very well although others do not and that pilgrims and walkers do not always know how to react when warned of the approach of a bicycle and some also behave unreasonably. Also, there are motorists who behave aggressively towards cyclists but the majority don't (although this, while true, has little or no relevance to the camino). It is also pretty clear that no-one is going to move from their firmly entrenched position in the face of the most persuasive arguments and evidence. So, unless there is something new to add, I am going to close this thread, but not just yet. I will leave it open if anyone can give me a good reason to.

Well, it's mildly amusing for a start!

 

[dick bird]

Thanks to everyone for your input, but it is time to close the thread now.