Camino Phrases and Titles

[Leibniz]

I have never heard “Jimmy” before.

 

[Kathar1na]

You can know the name of that bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird.

Ah, Feynman. Great scientist, great teacher, great raconteur. I found a video where he tells this anecdote about the brown-throated thrush. It goes on a bit further:

So, I had already learnt [from my father] that names don't constitute knowledge. What he forgot to tell me was that the knowing of names is useful if you want to talk to somebody else so you can tell them what you are talking about.

 

[Icacos]

Though (oddly enough !!) the phrase "the Le Puy route" is correct !!

Please elaborate.
And does the same apply to “the Del Norte”?

 

[Icacos]

I have never heard “Jimmy” before.

I’ve heard it first hand, as in “ ..... going to give Jimmy a hug.”

 

[Kathar1na]

Please elaborate.

I am bit slow ... only now that I saw your comment did it occur to me that terms like "the Del Norte" or "the El Camino trail" grate mainly on the ear of those who are more or less familiar with the language from which these expressions are taken, without any modification or adaptation to English usage. All is forgiven as of now.

BTW, he who says "the Del Norte" must also say "the Du Puy".

 

[Dorpie]

Ah, Feynman. Great scientist, great teacher, great raconteur. I found a video where he tells this anecdote about the brown-throated thrush. It goes on a bit further:

So, I had already learnt [from my father] that names don't constitute knowledge. What he forgot to tell me was that the knowing of names is useful if you want to talk to somebody else so you can tell them what you are talking about.

Yeah, I really like that whole story and far too often enjoy a thing for itself without any thought of how to articulate it later.

 

[wisepilgrim]

When I was a kid growing up we always had two cars. When it came time to go somewhere my mom would say 'Let's take the Lumina', or my dad would say 'We can take the Blazer'.

Now, reading this thread, I wonder how difficult it must have been for other children growing up in a household which owned a Chevy El Camino. I mean it's a rad car and all but the grammar of it all would have wrecked some kids.

 

[David Tallan]

Please elaborate.
And does the same apply to “the Del Norte”?

I think "the Le Puy route" is correct because the name of the town where it starts is "Le Puy" not "Puy". So saying "the Le Puy route" is functionally the same as saying "the Arles route" or "the Vezelay route". If I were to drop the definite article in French, out of fear of duplication, and just say "Puy", that would not be the correct name of the town.

I don't think it is the same with the Norte. Del Norte is not itself a place name. It is either a description or part of a longer name.

 

[Icacos]

I think "the Le Puy route" is correct because the name of the town where it starts is "Le Puy" not "Puy". So saying "the Le Puy route" is functionally the same as saying "the Arles route" or "the Vezelay route". If I were to drop the definite article in French, out of fear of duplication, and just say "Puy", that would not be the correct name of the town.

I don't think it is the same with the Norte. Del Norte is not itself a place name. It is either a description or part of a longer name.

Thank you for your clarification. I did not appreciate that Le Puy was the name of a town. I could have at least checked that out.

 

[Kathar1na]

Just curious (I have an assumption about it): how do you say "I'm in O Cebreiro" in Spanish and in Galician?

 

[Pelegrin]

Just curious (I have an assumption about it): how do you say "I'm in O Cebreiro" in Spanish and in Galician?

Spanish: Estoy en O Cebreiro
Galician: Estou en O Cebreiro. The expresion "Estou no Cebreiro" would be confusing because Pedrafita do Cebreiro.

 

[JabbaPapa]

BTW, he who says "the Del Norte" must also say "the Du Puy".

Endless grammatical vandalism afoot ...

 

[JabbaPapa]

Just curious (I have an assumption about it): how do you say "I'm in O Cebreiro" in Spanish and in Galician?

You say :

I've found a bed to sleep in at the O Cebreiro albergue.

In either Castellano or Gallego.

Whoops-a-we're-back-where-we-started !!!

 

[JabbaPapa]

If I were to drop the definite article in French, out of fear of duplication, and just say "Puy", that would not be the correct name of the town.

No it wouldn't.

The composite words "au" Puy, and "du" Puy are BTW definite articles, even without the "Le" in front of "Puy".

 

[J F Gregory]

hmmmmm, well IMO people do sometimes overemphasise their "Camino Families" to the detriment of the pilgrimage as such, but to each his own, people can and do have their own purposes on the Camino that won't be in line with my own ideas. No probs.

The second is not wrong, but it's VERY frequently both misunderstood and misused -- it refers to those sorts of weird occurrences where things that you absolutely need just appear to come together for or on a Camino of their own volition, as if spontaneously or through some Hand of God. It does NOT refer to completely mundane and ordinary stuff like getting the last bed in the albergue hours after several people told you it was completely full !!

Again, the third is not wrong, but it's also VERY frequently both misunderstood and misused -- it refers to those other strange occurrences when likely the ONLY person who can help you in some sudden and unexpected distress, for miles and miles around, just pops up seemingly out of the blue at the exact right instant and with the exact right equipment or disposition to provide the exact assistance you need. If it's not seriously weird in that manner, then it's not a "Camino Angel" -- it's just a simple, ordinary, helpful person ....



Yeah, this one seriously annoys me --- just for starters, because no it isn't ; It's our Camino.

But mostly because it's become the trite go-to "excuse" for those wanting to "do the Camino", but without necessary patience to pure and simple walk the Camino.



This one's wrong, sorry -- I've alternately used "the Way" since LONG before that film was ever released, alongside such other expressions as "the Camino", "the Way of Saint James", "the Francès", and so on and so forth ... it's NOT just the title of a certain film.



That one actually amuses me rather than annoys, and I've a lot of forbearance with it, after all not everyone has a knack for foreign languages, and some people can have great difficulties with them through no fault of their own, so one should sympathise and perhaps kindly correct their mistake, with a smile and good will.



Yeah, this is another one of those that's VERY frequently both misunderstood and misused (spoiler alert, there's a FAR larger number of "real pilgrims" than most people realise) -- to be a bit tongue-in-cheek though, could I suggest that you're not a real pilgrim unless you've rid yourself of that sort of judgmentalism ? (which doesn't prevent jokes about busgrinos and taxigrinos and tourigrinos etc)

Perhaps the Camino Angel reference was made as like in the U.S. the long distant trails: the Appalachian, the Pacific Crest Trail and the Continental Divide Trail have people who volunteer their time, their gas and even homes to help out, give shelter and feed hungry hikers. These people are called Trail Angels. They are very helpful to backpackers.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Perhaps the Camino Angel reference was made as like in the U.S. the long distant trails: the Appalachian, the Pacific Crest Trail and the Continental Divide Trail have people who volunteer their time, their gas and even homes to help out, give shelter and feed hungry hikers. These people are called Trail Angels. They are very helpful to backpackers.

Nice theory, but the term "Camino Angel" predates the arrival of the PCT crowd on the Camino by about 10 years at least.

It is a superficially similar concept though, and thanks for drawing attention to that !!!

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Nice theory, but the term "Camino Angel" predates the arrival of the PCT crowd on the Camino by about 10 years at least.

It is a superficially similar concept though, and thanks for drawing attention to that !!!

This doesn't tell us anything definitive but I did a Google books search for "trail angel" and "Camino angel" on 20th century books and I got nothing for "Camino angel" but a 1994 use of "trail angel" that didn't even need defining.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rp6RywISXngC&pg=PA138&dq="Trail+angel"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijzojygdDfAhXFwFkKHdgfBxUQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q="Trail%20angel"&f=false

 

[Bristle Boy]

Personally, I dislike the modern trend of starting a sentence with “so” and a politician who answers a question with the starting word “listen”. Nothing to do with “Camino speak”!

 

[trecile]

Personally, I dislike the modern trend of starting a sentence with “so” and a politician who answers a question with the starting word “listen”. Nothing to do with “Camino speak”!

So... why exactly does it bother you?

 

[Bristle Boy]

So... why exactly does it bother you?

Listen...because it irritates!

 

[Kathar1na]

This doesn't tell us anything definitive

I had a look at Pacific / Appalachian "trail talk" and noticed that they use "The trail provides". It also occurred to me that I hear "Camino angels" and "The Camino provides" mainly in English, so I would not be at all surprised that that's where the phrases originate.

Of course, there was "The Universe provides" which came probably earlier.

For a pilgrimage trail, though, I'd expect Matthew 6:26 to be a more appropriate quote.

 

[timr]

Immediately reminded me of this famous flowchart explaining how either duct tape or WD40 are the solution to most engineering problems
View attachment 50327

There is an apocryphal textbook of Dermatological Therapeutics. "If it's wet, dry it. If it's dry, wet it." That covered pretty well everything.

 

[Marbe2]

@rector, Pilgrims who say the three things you have listed I believe are being sincere and not trite. What better place to express such phrases than while walking these amazing pilgrimages. They most likely have...
1. Had a "camino family" they walked with and gotten to know, thus enriching their personal experience
2. Had the "camino provide" for them in a small way, possibly as small as some chocolate given to them when they'd run out of food
3. Have had some person come to their aid in a helpful and sincere fashion, thus becoming a "camino angel" to them. (There is a "David" on this forum who is literally a walking first aid kit to anyone who needs assistance. I would call him a camino angel.)

My honest appraisal is that I personally am not annoyed by these phrases.

I too believe in Camino Angels...based upon personal experience, these are people who extend themselves above and beyond and, quite honestly, have come to our aid or others at just the right time! I think saying the Camino will provide, is another way of saying that there are wonderful people, whether you call them angels or not, who will go out of their way to assist you when you are in need.

We walk slow! Just about everyone passes us! And to each and everyone of them, I try to greet them with an enthusiastic “buen Camino”...so I am not at all annoyed when folks greet us, or engage us.

So, Camino Chris I’m with You!

 

[C clearly]

I just wish that people would learn to pronounce albergue properly.

One reason they don't pronounce "albergue" correctly is because they think that it is spelled with a "u" in the middle (alburgue" . I see it misspelled frequently here on the forum.

Regarding the pronunciation of foreign words in an English sentence, I agree that it can sometimes sound pretentious. For example, I never refer to "Roma" or "Sevilla" in an English sentence. However, I would always put the stress on the first syllable of Mérida, even though English-speakers have a natural tendency to put it on the second syllable. In the case of "albergue", there is no adequate translation to English, so we must use the Spanish word. It is entirely possible for an English-speaker to pronounce "Al (as in Al the Optimist) - bare - gay" without sounding pretentious.

 

[tomnorth]

When heard my first “Buen Camino” I knew I had arrived. I never tired of it. When I hear “Buen Camino” again I know that I will have returned. I will never tire of hearing it.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

@C clearly, I pronounce albergue like you are showing at the end of your post. Is this incorrect? One time I asked some local men outside a bar where the albergue was in Guemes on the Norte. They were confused at my pronunciation until I mentioned "Ernesto"...they all knew who he is and pointed up the hill.

 

[trecile]

When you pronounce albergue remember that the stress is on the second syllable. So it's al-bare-gay, not al-bare-gay. It's pretty easy to know where the stress should be in Spanish words. Unless there is an accent mark, words that end in a vowel, an S or an N have the stress on the second to the last syllable. Words that end in any other letter have the stress on the last syllable. If there is an accent mark, for example in pensión, the stress is on the accented syllable. And in @C clearly's example of Mérida, the accent mark is showing us to stress the first syllable, not the penultimate syllable.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Thanks, trecile, that should help me a little.☺

 

[David Tallan]

Listen...because it irritates!

Like, you need to accept the fact that English speakers quite enjoy adding words that, er, don't exactly add a lot of value but, well, they give us time to think what we are going to say next, you know what I mean. Spanish speakers have their own words that fulfill the same function, in a manner of speaking.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Like, you need to accept the fact that English speakers quite enjoy adding words that, er, don't exactly add a lot of value but, well, they give us time to think what we are going to say next, you know what I mean. Spanish speakers have their own words that fulfill the same function, in a manner of speaking.

Or in the case of politicians...patronises and the use of the word strengthens (in a psychological way) for the “listener” to agree...but, listen, I agree with your point about the English.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I have never heard “Jimmy” before.

Me neither.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Me neither.

Not Jimmy Bond (007)

 

[JabbaPapa]

Personally, I dislike the modern trend of starting a sentence with “so” and a politician who answers a question with the starting word “listen”. Nothing to do with “Camino speak”!

So when Shakespeare sang or laughed
The world with long, sweet Alpine echoes thrilled
Voiceless to scholars' tongues no muse had filled
With melody divine.

C.P. Cranch, Shakespeare.

 

[Leibniz]

Personally, I dislike the modern trend of starting a sentence with “so”!

A recent(ish) episode of the excellent podcast Lexicon Valley was dedicated to the history of that trend and the reasons behind it. Very interesting. Great podcast in general, I recommend it!

 

[trecile]

A recent(ish) episode of the excellent podcast Lexicon Valley was dedicated to the history of that trend and the reasons behind it. Very interesting. Great podcast in general, I recommend it!

I love that podcast too

 

[Kathar1na]

Personally, I dislike the modern trend of starting a sentence with “so” and a politician who answers a question with the starting word “listen”. Nothing to do with “Camino speak”!

So there are no other threads on this forum for stuff that has nothing to do with the Camino?

 

[Kathar1na]

Spanish: Estoy en O Cebreiro
Galician: Estou en O Cebreiro. The expresion "Estou no Cebreiro" would be confusing because Pedrafita do Cebreiro.

Thank you. I had noticed that a Galician speaker was following the thread and hoped you would reply.

But there goes my theory. I expected it to be no Cebreiro.

When I first noticed that there are place names starting with O in Galicia, like O Cebreiro or O Castro, I thought it means at or in, like the French word au. I know now that it denotes the definite article the, similar to French place names starting with the definite article le, such as Le Puy-en-Velay.

PS: Ooh, we can add something to the "annoyance" list: people who use an apostrophe and write the name of the village as O'Cebreiro. I was once one of them.

 

[KinkyOne]

Like, you need to accept the fact that English speakers quite enjoy adding words that, er, don't exactly add a lot of value but, well, they give us time to think what we are going to say next, you know what I mean. Spanish speakers have their own words that fulfill the same function, in a manner of speaking.

As a non-native (English) speaker I would say that native English speakers are adding "sounds" to foreign words. Same as in word Albergue. I call it "singing" and pronouncing "al-bear-gay" (or even al-bear-gee) is just that. This "gay" ending should be pronounced something like "hate" but you have to stop before the "...te". It's not G, it's almost H which is not pronounced as H in English. Hard to explain

On the funny side: Is Al really gay bear?

 

[Bristle Boy]

A recent(ish) episode of the excellent podcast Lexicon Valley was dedicated to the history of that trend and the reasons behind it. Very interesting. Great podcast in general, I recommend it!

Thanks for the info. Anyone on here know the title of the podcast?

 

[Pelegrin]

Thank you. I had noticed that a Galician speaker was following the thread and hoped you would reply.

But there goes my theory. I expected it to be no Cebreiro.

When I first noticed that there are place names starting with O in Galicia, like O Cebreiro or O Castro, I thought it means at or in, like the French word au. I know now that it denotes the definite article the, similar to French place names starting with the definite article le, such as Le Puy-en-Velay.

PS: Ooh, we can add something to the "annoyance" list: people who use an apostrophe and write the name of the village as O'Cebreiro. I was once one of them.

Yes, I' m here in charge of Galician issues
Ok, If I am doing the Camino and call a friend who knows it , if I say "Estou no Cebreiro" no problem, otherwise, he probably would ask "En Pedrafita do Cebreiro ?" which is much more known.
And yes O´Cebreiro is incorrect but so widely used on this Forum that doesn't bother me.
As you said O is an article (masculine), so O Cebreiro means The Cebreiro.
Nothing to do with Irish O´ Hara because , as far as I know, it comes from "Of Hara" (Of Hara family).

 

[Kathar1na]

Hard to explain

Do this: go to Google Translate, set-up as shown below, enter albergue into the box for English and click on the loudspeaker icons in the English box and in the Spanish box. Endless fun guaranteed ... ;-).

 

[Bristle Boy]

I love that podcast too

Did find the title...will listen with interest!
The electricity went off and so...the internet.

 

[Marbe2]

Anyone who teaches a foreign language will tell you that the goal of language is to communicate! So I would not worry too much about whether the accent is in the wrong place. Speak slowly and folks will likely get it in context. While I do applaud anyone who inquires about the precise pronunciation of an important word (albergue) for someone walking on the Camino...do not let “correctness” hold you back from using whatever Spanish words you can articulate! I am sure most Spanish speaking persons appreciate your attempts.

 

[Kathar1na]

Anyone who teaches a foreign language will tell you that the goal of language is to communicate! So I would not worry too much about whether the accent is in the wrong place.

Just to be clear about it: this thread is not about accents or mistakes when speaking or writing in a foreign language. It's about language use and pronunciation in one language only (i.e. one's own language or a language one is reasonably fluent in). Perhaps it's difficult to explain why this can be a funny / intriguing / interesting / educational topic of conversation ...

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Thank you. I had noticed that a Galician speaker was following the thread and hoped you would reply.

But there goes my theory. I expected it to be no Cebreiro.

When I first noticed that there are place names starting with O in Galicia, like O Cebreiro or O Castro, I thought it means at or in, like the French word au. I know now that it denotes the definite article the, similar to French place names starting with the definite article le, such as Le Puy-en-Velay.

PS: Ooh, we can add something to the "annoyance" list: people who use an apostrophe and write the name of the village as O'Cebreiro. I was once one of them.

O'Dang it! I'm not supposed to use an apostrophe like that any more?

 

[Bristle Boy]

And now (for a bit of fun) officer crabtree who thinks he speaks French.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Just to be clear about it: this thread is not about accents or mistakes when speaking or writing in a foreign language. It's about language use and pronunciation in one language only (i.e. one's own language or a language one is reasonably fluent in). Perhaps it's difficult to explain why this is can be a funny / intriguing / interesting / educational topic of conversation ...

I suppose this whole area of conversation could be a new thread in and of itself. You launguage buffs are O'so smart and I get completely lost. Hey, I'm having fun using apostrophes inappropiately, seriously! I was at least able to learn to do that!

 

[Bristle Boy]

 

[Camino Chrissy]

BB, you always come up with such hilarious comics and videos!

 

[Bristle Boy]

BB, you always come up with such hilarious comics and videos!

Can’t help it...I can’t be serious!

 

[David Tallan]

I suppose this whole area of conversation could be a new thread in and of itself. You launguage buffs are O'so smart and I get completely lost. Hey, I'm having fun using apostrophes inappropiately, seriously! I was at least able to learn to do that!

I've been using apostrophes inappropriately ever since the 60's.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I've been using apostrophes inappropriately ever since the 60's.

Ive’ been using apostrophes’ even more inappropriately since the 50s’

 

[Former member 49149]

O'Dang it! I'm not supposed to use an apostrophe like that any more?

Smart cookie, CC!

 

[Former member 49149]

I've been using apostrophes inappropriately ever since the 60's.

Sir, you must be the one who set them all loose one day. I nearly choked when I saw: Soup’s, sandwiche’s, tea’s. I now still grimace, but it is not the end of the world, far far from it!

 

[Albertagirl]

One reason they don't pronounce "albergue" correctly is because they think that it is spelled with a "u" in the middle (alburgue" . I see it misspelled frequently here on the forum.

Regarding the pronunciation of foreign words in an English sentence, I agree that it can sometimes sound pretentious. For example, I never refer to "Roma" or "Sevilla" in an English sentence. However, I would always put the stress on the first syllable of Mérida, even though English-speakers have a natural tendency to put it on the second syllable. In the case of "albergue", there is no adequate translation to English, so we must use the Spanish word. It is entirely possible for an English-speaker to pronounce "Al (as in Al the Optimist) - bare - gay" without sounding pretentious.

@C clearly
I have been working on learning correct Spanish (of Spain) pronunciation for some years, but how I pronounce, or write, Spanish names in English seems to depend on my familiarity with the name and with the English version of it. I would never refer to Roma in English, but I have found myself referring to Sevilla in either the Spanish or English form, with no particular reason that I can determine, except that Seville was never a significant place for me before I walked the VdlP last year. The place names on the VdlP, and their pronunciation, have largely slipped into my Spanish vocabulary/pronunciation, even when I am speaking English. I have wondered myself why I use one or the other, but I really don't know. I am certain that it has nothing to do with being pretentious, but it is a curious inconsistency.

 

[Icacos]

Sir, you must be the one who set them all loose one day. I nearly choked when I saw: Soup’s, sandwiche’s, tea’s.

I think that's often autocorrect. I've experienced it myself.

 

[Dorpie]

A recent(ish) episode of the excellent podcast Lexicon Valley was dedicated to the history of that trend and the reasons behind it. Very interesting. Great podcast in general, I recommend it!

Thanks for the tip. I love an interesting podcast.

 

[DonnaS18]

People who call the Camino "the way" after the film. No reason, it is the direct translation I guess, but it just annoys me.

I guess.... except the movie “The Way” came out several hundred years after the Camino was called “The Way” ...... of St James or The French Way, The North Way
Jesus reckoned he was “The Way, The Truth..” Dont be annoyed.. just go for another walk.

 

[DonnaS18]

"the El Camino"
Or in extreme cases "the El Camino trail"

Haha I heard that one yesterday and just chuckled and shut up.

 

[C clearly]

but I have found myself referring to Sevilla in either the Spanish or English form, with no particular reason that I can determine,

I am certain that it has nothing to do with being pretentious, but it is a curious inconsistency.

I agree that I get inconsistent as well, find it hard to decide how to pronounce some Spanish place names in an English sentence.

Regarding the pronunciation of foreign words in an English sentence, I agree that it can sometimes sound pretentious.

I should clarify - I don't think it is pretentious in most cases, but it can sometimes "sound" a bit so.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I don’t think it’s pretentious at all! Everything doesn’t have to be Anglicised! I like a coq au vin...but don’t pronounce the vin as in bin!
Perhaps it’s a case of when in Rome..

 

[Albertagirl]

Perhaps it’s a case of when in Rome..

Or would that be "Roma?"

 

[Bristle Boy]

Or would that be "Roma?"

Touché ....Oh! Here we are again!

 

[JabbaPapa]

I don’t think it’s pretentious at all! Everything doesn’t have to be Anglicised! I like a coq au vin...but don’t pronounce the vin as in bin!
Perhaps it’s a case of when in Rome..

hmmmm, there are some traditional "English pronunciations" (and spellings) that it might be silly not to use though, even though in principle there's never anything wrong with using a correct pronunciation.

In English, I'd almost never use the correct native pronunciations for Barcelona or Paris or Rome for instance, nor would I type "Lyons" or "Marseilles" any differently, even though in French they have not the "s".

There's actually a general Grammar rule about this (valid in all languages BTW) -- if the standard dictionary has a particular pronunciation or spelling for a foreign word, use those instead of the more correct foreign ones. (of course, the rule will have its occasional exceptions too)

 

[Bristle Boy]

Just as an aside, many years ago I was lucky to go on a foreign exchange and spent a month in Paris. Whilst there I couldn’t speak English with my French family (and the French boy couldn’t speak French when here).
I couldn’t explain it and it wasn’t contrived but for a few days when I returned I spoke English with a slight French accent.

 

[Kathar1na]

I guess.... except the movie “The Way” came out several hundred years after the Camino was called “The Way” ...... of St James or The French Way, The North Way

It reinforces the idea that there is, and always was, one narrowly defined way, the one marked by yellow arrows. I know how much many people love the yellow arrows but following them sometimes gave me the feeling as if walking in a hamster wheel ... but then for a huge first part of my walk to Santiago I did not follow any arrows or any "official" way or Way whatsoever.

I once tried to find out when it became common usage to call that long sequence of roads from SJPP - or from Puente la Reina - the Camino Frances, or its Latin equivalent, but failed. You know more, @DonnaS18?

 

[Kathar1na]

@C clearlyI have wondered myself why I use one or the other, but I really don't know. I am certain that it has nothing to do with being pretentious, but it is a curious inconsistency.

Same here, and strangely enough, I noticed that I do this with the name of Sevilla in particular, like you do. This reminds me that, initially, I knew the monastery in the Pyrenees only as Roncevaux and it took me a while to think of it as Roncesvalles. I noticed that the English Wikipedia has an entry on the location of Roncesvalles but calls the (real or fictive) Charlemagne battle the Battle of Roncevaux Pass.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I once tried to find out when it became common usage to call that long sequence of roads from SJPP - or from Puente la Reina - the Camino Frances, or its Latin equivalent, but failed.

Blimey, a thousand years ago ?

It's probably not possible to pinpoint an even roughly exact date, and anyway the route of the Francès has varied over the course of the Centuries, and some routes today that go by other names would in some cases have been called the Francès as well ... in the most traditional sense anyway, the Aragonès down from Somport is still a part of the Francès.

According to Unesco -- https://whc.unesco.org/fr/list/669 :

"The almost 1500-km-long network of four Northern Routes (Primitive, Coastal, Interior of the Basque Country-La Rioja, and Liébana) are at the origin of the Jacobean pilgrimage. They are directly linked to the discovery of the Apostle’s tomb, and to its promotion by the Kingdom of Asturias. It was not until the 11th century that the Northern Routes were surpassed by the 738-km-long French Route, which was less difficult to traverse and became the primary Way of Saint James across the Iberian peninsula to Compostela."

I knew the monastery in the Pyrenees only as Roncevaux and it took me a while to think of it as Roncesvalles. I noticed that the English Wikipedia has an entry on the location of Roncesvalles but calls the (real or fictive) Charlemagne battle the Battle of Roncevaux Pass.

English uses "Roncevaux", which it took from the French after 1066 etc, and the Chanson de Roland.

 

[Kathar1na]

As to geographical names etc., I'm not trying to argue some point or other. I'm just idly curious. I'm not a language buff, btw, it just happened that I've lived most of my life in multilingual environments of various kinds, and sometimes it's fun to talk about this kind of stuff. At other times, I find it utterly boring.

I've also become interested in some aspects of how things were earlier, especially how these people saw their world and beyond.

I happened to read something today which I liked: The assembly [of the CoE] was inspired by the pilgrimage but recommended the promotion of routes for which it created a special emblem. The first is symbolic, the second material. The pilgrimage is unique, routes are multiple. The pilgrimage is unifying, routes are a vehicle for political and economic interests.

 

[Devereaux]

I'm trying to find out when the "100 kilometer requirement " began.
Is the year 1993 correct?
Truly...was it a Galician marketing gimmick?
And, what does the cathedral have to do with that requirement? Nothing I'm guessing.
In older writings on the Camino, I don't see any reference to a "Compostela" or certification other than a shell, which I believe was received at the finish, not the beginning.
Correct?
Thanks!

 

[JabbaPapa]

I'm trying to find out when the "100 kilometer requirement " began.
Is the year 1993 correct?
Truly...was it a Galician marketing gimmick?
And, what does the cathedral have to do with that requirement? Nothing I'm guessing.
In older writings on the Camino, I don't see any reference to a "Compostela" or certification other than a shell, which I believe was received at the finish, not the beginning.
Correct?
Thanks!

The Compostela has existed since the Middle Ages, and it was (and technically still is) a legal document stating that X has accomplished his Pilgrimage (and so been to Confession and prayed before the tomb of the Apostle) -- this served to show among other things that those required by a Church Court to undergo a penitential pilgrimage, or some criminals bound as punishment to accomplish one, etc had properly fulfilled their obligation, and so were no longer under that charge. But it could sometimes also serve to show that the conditions for the lifting of someone's excommunication had been fulfilled.

When the rules for excommunications started to be modernised and simplified from the 15th Century onwards though, the need for such sinners to obtain such a Compostela for a remission started to decline, so I'd guess that it started to become the more nostalgic and symbolic document that we have today from about after the Council of Trent onwards, as that was when the old penalty of "minor excommunication" was formally abolished (though it had already fallen into disuse from the 15th Century onwards, and all references to it were only removed from the Canon Law in the 19th Century).

Of course, it didn't take the form of a printed document until modern times.

But here for example is one from 1733 :

As to the 100 kilometer rule, offhand I'm not sure when it started, but I do remember it as having been a quite recent change in 1993.

According to this, though : http://amawalker.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-manifesto-of-villafranca-de-bierzo.html

--- the Compostela as we know it today had its origins in the 14th Century ; the first Credenciales were printed in the 1954 Holy Year, but the model of the one that we use nowadays was created in 1963 ; and "The only reason that I have been able to find for the 100 km requirement, which was imposed by the church for the earning a Compostela (not by Galician tourism), was to ensure ".. effort and sacrifice in expiation of sins.." (El esfuerzo y sacrificio en expiación de los pecados...") ", and according to Rebekah Scott here https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...-the-100-km-rule-to-300-km.39220/#post-391375 that 100 km requirement was indeed introduced in 1993.

A major reason why the Cathedral did that is because the number of pilgrims arriving in Holy Years was starting to be a burden on the Pilgrims Office, and so they put this 100K/200K condition in place, as well as issuing an "official" Credencial, to both limit the numbers (the rule) and help finance the work of the Pilgrims Office (the Credencial, and the contribution in Pesetas, later Euros, to obtain one).

 

[Walli Walker]

When someone says they are going to do the “full Camino”.
What the?!?

 

[JabbaPapa]

When someone says they are going to do the “full Camino”.
What the?!?

heh -- from my "purist" perspective, that's of course in the most literal sense from home to home via Santiago (a lot easier to do if you live in Spain ), though it would be rather churlish to point any "superior" fingers at those "only" (ahem !! ) doing home to Santiago ... or indeed anyone else, for that matter !!

 

[Kathar1na]

In older writings on the Camino, I don't see any reference to a "Compostela" or certification other than a shell, which I believe was received at the finish, not the beginning. Correct?

The certificates that preceded the contemporary Compostela were not called a Compostela but they have been in existence for hundreds of years. As you can see in the image of one of these certificates shown in an earlier post, there's a fundamental difference between now and then: the earlier certificates usually confirmed that the pilgrim had visited the Cathedral ("the most holy church"), had made confession, had been granted absolution and had taken the Holy Eucharist. The pilgrimage certificate was given to Christians only, and after the Reformation to Catholics only, who qualified and had fulfilled their religious obligations. Today, to receive a Compostela, you don't have to be Catholic, you even don't need to be baptised, you just have to (tacitly) confirm that you made the pilgrimage with "at least an attitude of search" and "for spiritual reasons". I'm not sure that it's clear to everyone what they mean. It isn't to me.

The 12th century Codex Calixtinus talks already about shells that pilgrims bring back from Compostela. What they also brought back in great quantities were pilgrim badges made from lead alloy or other materials, depicting the venerated saint or some attributes like keys, shell etc. It is believed that they were more than a souvenir: they had been in the vicinity of the saint's sanctuary and carried some of its protecting or healing power.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

@rector, in skimming through your replies on this thread, I conclude your wit is so dry you could cut it with a knife. You definately get a 9.5 for your super dry one liners.

 

[Thom]

I have to say that I never tire of hearing or saying "Buen Camino". I just wish that people would learn to pronounce albergue properly. And I almost hit one pilgrim over the head with my hiking poles when he kept calling the Meseta the Masada.

 

[Jacobus]

The solution to the "click clack" of unsheathed walking sticks is to buy and hand out inexpensive rubber tips (gomas de bastones). I usually carry a half-dozen spares for this purpose, and to replace the one that is usually always sacrificed to the 'mud god' on each of my Caminos so far...never fails.

In most China Bazars and outdoor stores in Spain, you can usually find them near the cash register, in a bowl and CHEAP, like a euro or so each. Compare that to 2 for maybe USD 10 at REI.

The size is fairly standard, 12 mm inner diameter IIRC. So, anyone can use them. The very few times that the tips have been too large, I recommend a turn or two of Duck tape to fill the gap. Works every time...

WHAT, you don't carry a small roll of Duck tape or Gorilla Tape? Get thee to thy nearest DIY or office supply store! You can find a variant of duck tape in 1 inch or less widths. I was able to get 1/2 inch Duck Brand tape at a office supply store. My DIY stores typically do not have less than 1" widths. It is all good. There is no end to the clever stuff you can do with this tape.

You might do this out of simple consideration for others. If picking up other folks rubbish is considered a good thing, then giving out noise-pollution silencing rubber tips is as good, at least IMHO.

This is a great icebreaker at a rest stop too. If you follow someone who does the 'clicky-clacky' thing, just introduce yourself and give them tips. It is a win-win. You meet someone new. They might buy you a beer. That could balance out your original investment...

Pay it forward pilgrims...

In deference to those who dislike the “click clack” of walking sticks I Always put mine away when walking thru cobbled or paved areas. It annoys me too espwcially at 5:00 a.m. as the early risers get up and get clacking

 

[E V Waight]

What annoys me is annoyance over annoyance that ought not to be annoyed about.
These days seems a lot of people get annoyed over anything. It's like starting the day with:
"Well, let's see what I can be annoyed about today". Now that annoys the annoyance out of me!
Let it Be. Be Happy!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Love this, EV...hilarious!

 

[Icacos]

What annoys me is annoyance over annoyance that ought not to be annoyed about.
These days seems a lot of people get annoyed over anything. It's like starting the day with:
"Well, let's see what I can be annoyed about today". Now that annoys the annoyance out of me!
Let it Be. Be Happy!

Thanks for my morning laugh. Is it similar to what @Al the optimist said in #47, "What annoys me is that nothing anyone says annoys me."?

 

[E V Waight]

Thanks for my morning laugh. Is it similar to what @Al the optimist said in #47, "What annoys me is that nothing anyone says annoys me."?

Now, how's that to start the day? Better than being annoyed I guess!

 

[Bristle Boy]

Now, how's that to start the day? Better than being annoyed I guess!

I usually wake up grumpy....but her mood improves..

 

[Icacos]

I'm trying to work on mis lecciones de español, but I keep coming back to check in on this forum. Darn it!!

 

[Alx]

That's alright to be annoyed with such little things. It only means you're still kinda young. From my experience combined with experience of my kids, the most annoyable period in our lives was teen years. The longer you live, the less you care...

 

[JabbaPapa]

The certificates that preceded the contemporary Compostela were not called a Compostela but they have been in existence for hundreds of years. As you can see in the image of one of these certificates shown in an earlier post, there's a fundamental difference between now and then: the earlier certificates usually confirmed that the pilgrim had visited the Cathedral ("the most holy church"), had made confession, had been granted absolution and had taken the Holy Eucharist. The pilgrimage certificate was given to Christians only, and after the Reformation to Catholics only, who qualified and had fulfilled their religious obligations. Today, to receive a Compostela, you don't have to be Catholic, you even don't need to be baptised, you just have to (tacitly) confirm that you made the pilgrimage with "at least an attitude of search" and "for spiritual reasons". I'm not sure that it's clear to everyone what they mean. It isn't to me.

With the greatest respect, Kathar1na, you're quibbling -- the important things are the realities, not the names we attach to them.

This is indeed a fundamental lesson of the Camino !!

Those early 18th Century printed certificates were Compostelas, as were the much earlier far more personalised documents provided to pilgrims upon completion of their journey. Not because that's necessarily what they called them ; but instead because of what we ourselves call them now.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Buen annoyance, E V Waight !!

 

[Kathar1na]

With the greatest respect, Kathar1na, you're quibbling -- the important things are the realities, not the names we attach to them. This is indeed a fundamental lesson of the Camino !!

The question was: "In older writings on the Camino, I don't see any reference to a "Compostela".
My answer was: "That's because they did not call them a Compostela in those days".
Then I pointed out an important difference between prior and current content of the text.

 

[Kathar1na]

"100 kilometer requirement"

This topic has been passionately discussed in the past on this forum. I just came across an article in La Voz de Galicia from 2013 that deals with a written reply that the Dean of the Santiago Cathedral gave to R. Joos, the author of Camino guidebooks in German. The title of the article is El Cabildo considera que hay que vivir el Camino 4 o 5 días», asegura el deán Segundo Pérez and there is a similar sentence at the end of the article: "pasar en el Camino 4 o 5 días para vivir la experiencia interior".

I take it to mean that 4 or 5 days of walking to Santiago are enough "to undergo the inner experience". They regard this as a reasonable proposition.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The question was: "In older writings on the Camino, I don't see any reference to a "Compostela".
My answer was: "That's because they did not call them a Compostela in those days".
Then I pointed out an important difference between prior and current content of the text.

ah gotcha -- thanks for the clarification

 

[annie.perso]

@rector, Pilgrims who say the three things you have listed I believe are being sincere and not trite. What better place to express such phrases than while walking these amazing pilgrimages. They most likely have...
1. Had a "camino family" they walked with and gotten to know, thus enriching their personal experience
2. Had the "camino provide" for them in a small way, possibly as small as some chocolate given to them when they'd run out of food
3. Have had some person come to their aid in a helpful and sincere fashion, thus becoming a "camino angel" to them. (There is a "David" on this forum who is literally a walking first aid kit to anyone who needs assistance. I would call him a camino angel.)

My honest appraisal is that I personally am not annoyed by these phrases.

Before walking the Camino Francés, I thought I would be annoyed by these phrases, but to my surprise I was not at all. Probably because your numbers 1, 2 and 3 happened to me so sweetly.

 

[Val&Tom]

I hate that one too!

For me, it's "Plan B".

Same difference .

Jill

Have you seen plan bon YouTube?

 

[Don Abodeely]

@rector, Pilgrims who say the three things you have listed I believe are being sincere and not trite. What better place to express such phrases than while walking these amazing pilgrimages. They most likely have...
1. Had a "camino family" they walked with and gotten to know, thus enriching their personal experience
2. Had the "camino provide" for them in a small way, possibly as small as some chocolate given to them when they'd run out of food
3. Have had some person come to their aid in a helpful and sincere fashion, thus becoming a "camino angel" to them. (There is a "David" on this forum who is literally a walking first aid kit to anyone who needs assistance. I would call him a camino angel.)

My honest appraisal is that I personally am not annoyed by these phrases.

How about Camino Gang or Camino Posse?

 

[Robo]

In deference to those who dislike the “click clack” of walking sticks I Always put mine away when walking thru cobbled or paved areas. It annoys me too espwcially at 5:00 a.m. as the early risers get up and get clacking

That's what the rubber tips are for
I keep them in my pocket and they can go on and off a few times a day without even needing to stop........

 

[Camino Chrissy]

How about Camino Gang or Camino Posse?

Ha, sure, why not!

 

[longwalker60]

It may be my age, it may be the damage that I have absorbed during my time on this earth, but I sometimes get annoyed! Some of the random titles applied and phrases used about the Camino really annoy me. I here include a few for your honest appraisal.

My Camino Family!!!!!!!
The Camino will provide!!!!!
Camino Angels!!!!!!

I will await with baited breath your honest and sincere reply

A quick story, my trecking poles were destroyed on my flight to Baritz. Plane was delayed in Ireland. Anyway, made the train to SJPP with five minutes to spare. Checked into the Pilgrims office, and I was told, every single alburgue, and room (except for a hotel at $200.00 a night) was booked. After 18 hours of planes, trains and buses, I was advised I could sleep in the gym on a yoga mat along with the dozens of others who did not have a room. I walked across the street, purchased some trecking poles and casually mentioned that" I cant believe every room is sold out in SJPP". The owner said, hold on, made a phone call, I was advised I could stay in a 300 year old farm house, have breakfast, would be picked up and dropped off for $45.00 euro. The owner also had connections to the baggage transport service to carry my bags, so I could avoid crossing over the prynees carrying a bag for the first day. - made it on time to SJPP, a comfy bed, shower and breakfast when I needed it most.The camino did provide. There is magic on the camino. Buen Camino.

 

[cherrys]

Now the poles get to me too, but they do come in handy sometimes

I hate that noise too, but I couldn’t walk without my poles. BUT I have big nobbly rubber tips on them all the time so as not to annoy anyone (or at least I certainly hope I don’t)

 

[Anamya]

I rarely get annoyed with anything. But last time I was in line in the Pilgrim's office, in 2017, the guy in front of me asked where I was coming from, I said from Porto. Then this lad in shining UnderArmour popped the question: "I started in St Jean. Do you plan to walk the real camino in the future?"

I was so sad with the question that gave him the benefit of the doubt and googled if there was a "Camino Real" or something like that. No. He was just full of himself, which is sad for someone that walked so much :/

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Sad indeed, @Anamya.

 

[Keyes]

The camino has provided me wonderful camino families, relationships that last long after each camino is done, and the blessing of assistance from camino angels along the Way.

Suggestion for dealing with annoyances such as me:
1. Walk (and talk) your own camino.
2. Respectfully let others do the same.
3. Drink more wine.

 

[Adrian Harding 65]

@rector, Pilgrims who say the three things you have listed I believe are being sincere and not trite. What better place to express such phrases than while walking these amazing pilgrimages. They most likely have...
1. Had a "camino family" they walked with and gotten to know, thus enriching their personal experience
2. Had the "camino provide" for them in a small way, possibly as small as some chocolate given to them when they'd run out of food
3. Have had some person come to their aid in a helpful and sincere fashion, thus becoming a "camino angel" to them. (There is a "David" on this forum who is literally a walking first aid kit to anyone who needs assistance. I would call him a camino angel.)

My honest appraisal is that I personally am not annoyed by these phrases.

I totally concur.