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Continental Crossing of Europe with a Camino Twist (Suggestions please!)

Camino(s) past & future
Frances (14), Portuguese (15), Le Puy (17), Ingles (17), VDLP (18), Lana (18), Madrid (19) + more
Hello,

Since I am at home in Canada during pandemic times I have time to research future hikes.

I am currently hoping to complete an epic solo hike that will cross the European continent and end at Santiago de Compostela (or perhaps continue further south to Gibraltar) in spring 2021. I am in the initial planning stages deciding with countries and trails to piece together. I may begin the hike at Istanbul, but am open to a different start point.

I will be on a small budget and will hope to tent the majority of the time - until I join the Camino routes in Spain and can utilize the albergues. When wild camping is not permitted, I will ask permission from local landowners. I'm an experienced backpacker and comfortable with food carries for up to ten days without resupply.

I love the wilderness and hiking at high elevation for the big mountain views. I also adore places with historical Camino de Santiago significance. Visiting churches and castles along the way would add to my experience, but I am not a fan of big, bustling modern cities.

I'm looking for suggestions for current European long-distance trail segments that are natural & stunningly beautiful, with a connection to the historic medieval pilgrimage route. I prefer staying up high in the mountains, rather than hiking through valleys or plains.

Thanks!
,
 

alexwalker

Forever Pilgrim
Camino(s) past & future
(2009): Camino Frances
(2011): Sevilla-Salamanca, VdlP
(2012): Salamanca-SdC, VdlP
(2014): SJpdP-Astorga
(2015): Astorga-SdC
(2016) May Pamplona-Moratinos; Sept.:Burgos-SdC
(2016): August/Sept: Camino San Olav (Burgos-Covarubbias), Burgos-Sarria
(2017): May: Portuguese; Sept: Pamplona-SdC
You can start in Trondheim, Norway, and cross the Norw. mountains, going past Oslo, through Denmark, and then follow various paths in central Europe that all lead to Santiago.

Read more here: https://pilegrimsleden.no/en/ for your start leg.

A member of this forum, @lovingkindness , has done this and may have plenty of advice for you.

I love the wilderness and hiking at high elevation for the big mountain views. I also adore places with historical Camino de Santiago significance. Visiting churches and castles along the way would add to my experience, but I am not a fan of big, bustling modern cities.

I'm looking for suggestions for current European long-distance trail segments that are natural & stunningly beautiful, with a connection to the historic medieval pilgrimage route. I prefer staying up high in the mountains, rather than hiking through valleys or plains.
That would be starting in Norway :cool:
 

KinkyOne

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
I'am not perfect, but I'm always myself!!!
Hello,

Since I am at home in Canada during pandemic times I have time to research future hikes.

I am currently hoping to complete an epic solo hike that will cross the European continent and end at Santiago de Compostela (or perhaps continue further south to Gibraltar) in spring 2021. I am in the initial planning stages deciding with countries and trails to piece together. I may begin the hike at Istanbul, but am open to a different start point.

I will be on a small budget and will hope to tent the majority of the time - until I join the Camino routes in Spain and can utilize the albergues. When wild camping is not permitted, I will ask permission from local landowners. I'm an experienced backpacker and comfortable with food carries for up to ten days without resupply.

I love the wilderness and hiking at high elevation for the big mountain views. I also adore places with historical Camino de Santiago significance. Visiting churches and castles along the way would add to my experience, but I am not a fan of big, bustling modern cities.

I'm looking for suggestions for current European long-distance trail segments that are natural & stunningly beautiful, with a connection to the historic medieval pilgrimage route. I prefer staying up high in the mountains, rather than hiking through valleys or plains.

Thanks!
,
Hi, Sara,

At first I also thought of starting in Istanbul on Sultan's Trail. Then you can either cross Austria and walk to Spain on pilgrim ways through Western Europe OR turn south on EPW (European Peace Walk) through Hungary and Croatia and join the Slovenian Way of St.James which will take you to Trieste and from there on you have plenty different pilgrim routes.
If you really like mountains then I would suggest Slovenian Mountain Trail (world's oldest completely connected and marked trail) instead of St.James Way. SMT if divided in thirds has its second part completely in the Alps, more or less above or around 2000 m.a.s.l. and it can't be described as hiking but rather serious mountaineering. The beauty is stunning.

You can also continue from Sultan's Trail on pilgrim routes through Austria and in the Alps veer down south on Alpe Adria Trail which is entirely a mountain walking/climbing. AAT ends in Trieste and from there on it's easy :)

Another suggestion would be walking The Iron Curtain Trail (@lovingkindness could provide a lot of info) from Finland, through Baltic states, former GDR, Poland, Chech and Slovak Republics and into Hungary to the Croatian border where you could veer south and then west into Slovenia. The rest is mentioned above.

If you need any additional info I can provide links to all of the above suggested trails. Happy planning :)
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
I love the wilderness and hiking at high elevation for the big mountain views. I also adore places with historical Camino de Santiago significance. Visiting churches and castles along the way would add to my experience, but I am not a fan of big, bustling modern cities. I'm looking for suggestions for current European long-distance trail segments that are natural & stunningly beautiful, with a connection to the historic medieval pilgrimage route. I prefer staying up high in the mountains, rather than hiking through valleys or plains.
Although a lot of trails outside of Spain and France have been labelled "camino" or "Saint James Way" in recent years, they are really just an effort to retrace old trade routes. Not really particular pilgrimage routes.

If you want to follow a very special pilgrimage route, have a look at www.4kmh.com. Via Alpina Sacra, a 2700 mile pilgrimage across the Alps. Recently walked by a Catholic priest, brother Johannes (full name: Johannes Maria Schwarz). A lot of it is in German (he is Austrian) but he posted also in English. The link above is in English. Also on Youtube. Truly deserves the label "epic". Makes me wish I was younger. Quote: A pilgrimage traversing the Alps and 8 countries to visit the highest, oldest, most beautiful, most interesting chapels, churches, monasteries and shrines.

Via Alpina sacra.jpg
 
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Raggy

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2017, 2018, 2019
If you're looking for inspiration for a continental crossing, I suggest you check out Ligne de Partage, the site where Pierre-Louis Blaix describes his adventures. He has covered a lot of territory in Europe - sometimes on routes of pilgrimage, sometimes following geographical features (rivers and watersheds are a particular interest of his).

His 2019 walk from Riga to Berlin is a typical example:
 

Bad Pilgrim

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Far too many...
Although a lot of trails outside of Spain and France have been labelled "camino" or "Saint James Way" in recent years, they are really just an effort to retrace old trade routes. Not really particular pilgrimage routes.

If you want to follow a very special pilgrimage route, have a look at www.4kmh.com. Via Alpina Sacra, a 2700 mile pilgrimage across the Alps. Recently walked by a Catholic priest, brother Johannes (full name: Johannes Maria Schwarz). A lot of it is in German (he is Austrian) but he posted also in English. The link above is in English. Also on Youtube. Truly deserves the label "epic". Makes me wish I was younger. Quote: A pilgrimage traversing the Alps and 8 countries to visit the highest, oldest, most beautiful, most interesting chapels, churches, monasteries and shrines.

View attachment 73132
Looks like the first one who walked it really messed up! Is it the Alpine pub crawl? 😆
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (14), Portuguese (15), Le Puy (17), Ingles (17), VDLP (18), Lana (18), Madrid (19) + more
Hi Sara from a fellow Ontarioan. I was just wondering if you would run into problems with the 90 day max stay in the schengen countries on such an ambition route?
Thank you everyone for your suggestions! I have lots to research. :)

Terry - the reason why I want to do this hike in 2021 is before the ETIAS visa system further complicates travel in Europe. And before more countries join in the Schengen-visa program! I'll try my best not to overstay through my routing. If I need to jump around and spilt up the hike - that is also a possibility.

It would be much simpler with a EU passport. :(
 

CWBuff

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
in Planning stage: Frances (SJPdP --> SdC) & Finisterre "2021" ... (GOD WILLING!)
@Sara_Dhooma said "cross the European Continent"
I therefore humbly suggest to start somewhere in vicinity of Ural Mountains and "go West"
I am sure that the options are simply endless
If there ever was a moment where the full meaning of ULTREIA! would be appropriate - IMHO, this would be it
👍
 

jl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances('05, '07), Aragonese ('05), del Norte / Primitivo ('09), Via Tolosana (Toulouse '05), Via Podiensis (Le Puy '07), Via Lemovicensis (Troyes '09), VF ('12), Winter Camino ('13/'14) Cammino d'Assisi ('14) Jakobseweg (Leipzig - Paris '15) San Salvador/Norte ('15) Ignaciano ('16) Invierno ('16)
Hi Sara - there is also the via Egnatia which goes from Greece through Macedonia and Albania. It would then be possible to head North along the coast to Trieste to link with other paths mentioned by other posters- or to cross into Italy. Your could even start further East at Antalya on the St Paul's Trail - Kate Clow is the woman responsible for establishing / writing the guide books. There are other paths like the Lycian Way, Sultan's way and so on which you should be able to link together and the Culture Routes web site below will help you.

https://www.viaegnatiafoundation.eu/index.php/hiking-wandern/via-egnatia-hiking-trail
https://cultureroutesinturkey.com/st-paul-trail/


Interestingly I am currently researching my very own journey. I have a number of Caminos that I would like to do, but they need little research as you just follow the arrows. I am currently looking at doing a second JoGLE (End to End of UK starting at John o' Groats to Lands End). Last time I zig zagged 2,200 kms going on any pilgrimage paths I found. Since that journey the British Pilgrimage Trust (https://britishpilgrimage.org/) has researched and many more pilgrimage paths. I am getting great pleasure in planning a route criss-crossing the island and linking various pilgrim routes using canal paths, and cycle routes. At this stage I am estimating that it will take me around 5 months and be about 3,000kms plus in length. I will do it in late autumn, through winter, as it is the quietest time on the lane ways which I suspect I may have to use to link odd paths. this means it will only be about 10 miles a day due to the short days.

I have no idea when, or even if, I may be able to do this - but it is fun researching and planning! Enjoy your planning too, take care, Janet
 
Camino(s) past & future
cycled from Pamplona Sep 2015;Frances, walked from St Jean May/June 2017. Plans to walk Porto 2020
G'Day @SARA Dhooma; ; apart from the Schengen (90 days in any 180 days) (although if you apply in advance to the first Schengen country you expect to enter (providing an approximate entry date) you can get a standard 180 day (six month) tourist visa.
My other question was "walking in Spring (early spring) surely some of the higher country ( anything above 1500 meters) is likely to be snow bound if not completely then at least in parts. Either way best of luck.
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
(although if you apply in advance to the first Schengen country you expect to enter (providing an approximate entry date) you can get a standard 180 day (six month) tourist visa.
Really?
I did not think this was possible...so it would be good news....

Sara, why not start in Moscow?
(Though I have to agree that Northcape would be a wonderful place to start....)
 
Camino(s) past & future
cycled from Pamplona Sep 2015;Frances, walked from St Jean May/June 2017. Plans to walk Porto 2020
Really?
I did not think this was possible...so it would be good news....

Sara, why not start in Moscow?
(Though I have to agree that Northcape would be a wonderful place to start....)
Is Russia in the Schengen Treaty?? I didn't think so. As for extended visas - no personal experience but these are always available (or at least they used to be) provided you apply far enough in advance and have the appropriate reasons. You might need to provide evidence of self funding and of course a return ticket.
 

jl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances('05, '07), Aragonese ('05), del Norte / Primitivo ('09), Via Tolosana (Toulouse '05), Via Podiensis (Le Puy '07), Via Lemovicensis (Troyes '09), VF ('12), Winter Camino ('13/'14) Cammino d'Assisi ('14) Jakobseweg (Leipzig - Paris '15) San Salvador/Norte ('15) Ignaciano ('16) Invierno ('16)
Really?
I did not think this was possible...so it would be good news....
For Aussies entering the Schengen region a long stay visa has been possible, in summary, with evidence of:- a return ticket, travel insurance, police check, bank statements showing you are able to support yourself, and the most difficult of all - receipts, or other evidence, of accommodation to be used.

Like I said this is a summary, and it may well change with the introduction of the ETIAS requirement planned for 2022. You can check out what would be needed for a long stay Visa for residents of various countries in this website. https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/

There have been a number of Australians who have successfully gained a long stay visa in the Schengen region, and there are other ways for us to stay longer by accessing the various trade agreement between specific countries and the Australian Govt.. How much longer these will be possible to access after ETIAS is introduced will be the question. One trade agreement that I have twice made use of for a longer stay than the 90 days is the one between the Govts. of Germany and Australia.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2019)
Check out E3, it sounds like what you are looking for. Just under 7,000 klms, 350 days.


 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Ingles 2016 Camino Portuguese 2017 Considering Invierno late (2020) In lieu of VdlP (2020)
Hi Sara from a fellow Ontarioan. I was just wondering if you would run into problems with the 90 day max stay in the schengen countries on such an ambition route?
If you are (relatively) limited on time then you could limit your walk to Spain and walk from the Atlantic Coast via the Camino Norte, Camino Primitivo to SdC. Then take the Camino Sanabres out of SdC to Link up with Via de la Plata which will take you to Seville. Then you can pick up the Via Serrana to take you to Gibralter and finish on the Mediterranean Sea. a journey of around 1700KM!

The Primitivo and Sanabres are the more hilly/Mountainous bits.

BTW if you cross into Gibralter you would likely be going out of the Schengen area and it might be possible to get a reset on the 90 days:cool:
 

JLWV

Jean-Luc
Camino(s) past & future
Levante (2014-2016); Levante to Toledo (2017-2018), to be continued; Fisterra & Muxia (2018);
Last year the writer of the following blog http://lebourdon38.fr/2019/01/liste-des-randonnees.html started in Viena, Austria, crossed Austria and Switzerland, then, for familiar reason he walked to North of France and after a few days it walked again from there to Paris, then to Somport (Aragon-French way), to go next to Valencia by various ways and GRs, then Levante, switched toward Astorga, and finished by winter way.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Us:Camino Frances, 2015 Me:Catalan/Aragonese, 2019
Sara, the below is a slightly edited version of a post I made on this forum about visa extensions above and beyond the Schengen rules. It is geared for Australians but is worth checking out for methodologies of researching. Though you are Canadian I do want to add for American readers that, with my limited checking, for U.S. citizens I've only found special treatment by Poland and Denmark (other than requesting a special visa for something like work or study).


Citizens of Australia and New Zealand have it great with lots of countries giving them special breaks. If they are careful about following the rules they can spend years in Europe as tourists. They should check out this web page: https://thefreedominitiative.wordpress.com/2015/04/24/unlimited-visa-in-europe-for-free-maybe/

Other nationalities should go to the above page too as it has information on how to see if there are special Schengen rules exceptions for you too.
 

Raggy

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2017, 2018, 2019
BTW if you cross into Gibralter you would likely be going out of the Schengen area and it might be possible to get a reset on the 90 days:cool:
I believe that the Schengen zone countries allow US passport holders to stay for up to 90 days within a rolling 180-day period. (The days that you enter and exit the Schengen zone are counted as full days).

If you were to spend 90 consecutive days in the Schengen zone and cross a border to a non-Schengen country on the 90th day, your clock would not reset. You will not be eligible to enter a Schengen country for another 90 days:

If you crossed into Gibraltar on the 90th day of walking through Schengen territories, your options would be pretty limited - flights to the UK or Morocco, basically.
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
So many incredibly interesting suggestions! It will be fun to see what Sara ends up choosing...and watching her youtube videos in 2021. Let's hope and pray it is a "miracle year" for all of us with a successful covid19 vaccine available.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (14), Portuguese (15), Le Puy (17), Ingles (17), VDLP (18), Lana (18), Madrid (19) + more
Love all the suggestions!!!
It is so wonderful to have so many different options.

Last autumn I met a Canadian fella in Oviedo that was finishing up his continental crossing. We chatted about the visa barriers. Another negative about getting older is that I am ineligible for a working holiday visa (must be under 35 years old). I have tried to research a bit about getting a six-month visa as a Canadian, but most stuff out there is for Americans, or super complicated.

He first walked from the Black Sea across Bulgaria and through the Balkans. He entered the Schengen zone in Slovenia and was in a rush to reach Finisterre. I think he went over the 90 days by a week or two, but did not get in trouble when exiting from Portugal.

I need to determine how important it is for me to maintain a true thru-hike with a continuous footpath VS. having the European journey I want (with time to stop and smell the roses!).

It may make sense to hike in Croatia, Bulgaria and/or Romania before they join the Schengen visa program. The ETIAS has been delayed to 2022 and those three countries are confirmed to be added when it launches.
 

CWBuff

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
in Planning stage: Frances (SJPdP --> SdC) & Finisterre "2021" ... (GOD WILLING!)
As many folks stated on this Forum numerous times - ETIAS is grossly over-hyped so I do not think it would present any issues for you. Obviously its just a couple of $$$$ to pay up "for the privilege" so to speak....well... we may not like it but it winds up being the same as anything else where we have to cough up our hard-earned money for something that largely "not needed"
At this point - to be honest I'd worry more about any post-COVID19 restrictions than "overall" Schengen visa requirements
 

AlwynWellington

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
please see signature
@Sara_Dhooma, there is a bit of romanticism is starting at Istanbul. From around 400 AD and for more than 1,000 years Hagia Sofia (Holy Wisdom - still standing and open, now as a museum) was the largest church in the world.

From there the Sultan's Trail passes through eastern Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Croatia, Hungary, Slovakia end ends at Vienna. More information is at Sultan's Trail and Wikipedia.

From Vienna you could link up with the many suggestions above ending in Spain.

Kia kaha (take care, be strong, get going when you can)
 

jl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances('05, '07), Aragonese ('05), del Norte / Primitivo ('09), Via Tolosana (Toulouse '05), Via Podiensis (Le Puy '07), Via Lemovicensis (Troyes '09), VF ('12), Winter Camino ('13/'14) Cammino d'Assisi ('14) Jakobseweg (Leipzig - Paris '15) San Salvador/Norte ('15) Ignaciano ('16) Invierno ('16)
Not all Schengen countries will have a bi-lateral trade agreement with yours, but no doubt there will be some that will be of use to you. I have used this facility twice to stay longer than the 90 days. Be aware though that if you have to leave the Schengen to renew your 90 day option, I think the only way way to prove you have done this is to leave by air as many of the micro states don't have land border controls. I researched going to somewhere like San Marino, where although you can pay to have a passport stamp, there is no border check and therefore on leaving the Schengen the travellers name would be flagged as an over-stayer. I took the option of a cheap flight to the UK for 2 nights, obtaining an exit and entry passport stamp, and had no trouble on my final exit from Europe. I also took care that every entry and exit was from the same airport, which I think simplified things too.
 

Raggy

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2017, 2018, 2019
To stay legally more than 90 days in the Schengen area, research about the Bilateral Visa Waiver Agreements that Canada has with other Schengen countries. For example, Denmark has a Bilateral agreement with Canada: https://canada.um.dk/en/travel-and-residence/practical-information/visa/bilateral-visa-agreements/
To take advantage of the bilateral visa waiver with Denmark, Sara could do a south to north trip (the waiver won't be applicable if she starts in the Nordic countries). So she could walk from Italy or Spain to arrive at the Danish border within 90 days, and then use 90 days to continue through Denmark and the Nordic countries.

From the toe of Italy to the Danish border looks to be around 2400km, so that would be possible in 90 days. And then another 90 days to get to the top of the continent. Start in early Spring and get to the top in late Summer. Why not?
 

C clearly

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016), VDLP (2017), Mozarabe (2018), Vasco/Bayona (2019)
I took the option of a cheap flight to the UK for 2 nights, obtaining an exit and entry passport stamp, and had no trouble on my final exit from Europe.
This won't help, at least for Canadians on the normal Schengen visa. The departure does not reset to 90 more days. You are still only allowed 90 days cumulatively over a rolling 180 day period. On any day, you must be able to count back 180 days and only have been in the Schengen area for 90 of those days. So, leaving for 2 days will only add 2 days to the allowable time.
 

jl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances('05, '07), Aragonese ('05), del Norte / Primitivo ('09), Via Tolosana (Toulouse '05), Via Podiensis (Le Puy '07), Via Lemovicensis (Troyes '09), VF ('12), Winter Camino ('13/'14) Cammino d'Assisi ('14) Jakobseweg (Leipzig - Paris '15) San Salvador/Norte ('15) Ignaciano ('16) Invierno ('16)
Sorry to disagree, but no - it does help. Depending on the bi-lateral trade agreement between countries there is often an extra number of days allowed. We (Australia) have a bi-lateral trade agreement with, among other countries, Germany. Thus I am allowed to stay in Germany for 90 days. At any time, prior to the 90 day deadline expiring if I leave the country for a non Schengen zone and return (it only needs to be a day in this case) then I am able to spend another 90 days in that same 180 day turnaround. On my last pilgrimage I entered the Schengen at Munich, left for London, on about day 80, from Munich, returning 2 days later (to Munich), and then left from Munich on about day 130. I had a letter from the embassy explaining about the bi-lateral trade agreement, but did not even have to show it. The first time I made use of this I did not actually leave the Schengen as the person I spoke to at the embassy told me I just had to leave the country (not specifying leave the Schengen) and so the border check in Munich took some time referring to the copy of my letter and politely clarifying, almost arguing!, with me as to what I had been doing. The second time, I am assuming that because I had left the Schengen, I had no flag against my name and so I just went straight through border controls.

You are correct in saying that if I were in the Schengen only it is 90 days within the 180 days. It is the bi-lateral trade agreement that makes the difference for us. I would guess that Canada has such agreements too. I might add that it was only after a LOT of digging that I found out about this bonus, and from what I have read it is likely that this"loophole" might be closed after the initial introduction of ETIAS. ETIAS is for security, and this little gap (which i suspect only a few people use) might decrease the effectiveness of ETIAS as a security measure, and may perhaps stop these extra privileges. I also assume that each bilateral trade agreement has different arrangements. The only way to find out about it is to contact the relevant embassy, after confirming that a bilateral trade agreement exists for that country, a hard enough task in itself. I hope that clarifies what I said earlier.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
I think this part of the conversation is only interesting to @Sara_Dhooma if Canada has bilateral agreements with one or more Schengen countries that predate the Schengen Agreement and allow her a prolonged visa free stay in the countries concerned. Are there such bilateral Canadian agreements?

Do not rely on your own or other's past experience as to the rules for entering/leaving such a bilateral agreement country and for staying or travelling subsequently in or through other Schengen areas. Rules are getting tightened all the time and new EU/Schengen wide control systems are being improved or implemented.

Despite a wide spread belief, there are currently no EU wide controls of your exits and entries, there are no flags against your name, unless there are criminal charges pending against you or you lost your travel documents or similar. Your name is not in any EU wide databases if you are just a normal traveller. The main tool for control is the visual control of your stamps in your passport. This will change soon, not through ETIAS, it's a different large-scale IT system for the whole EU that is currently in the make and it is called EES (Entry-Exit-System).
 
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Raggy

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2017, 2018, 2019
Sorry to disagree, but no - it does help. Depending on the bi-lateral trade agreement between countries there is often an extra number of days allowed. We (Australia) have a bi-lateral trade agreement with, among other countries, Germany. Thus I am allowed to stay in Germany for 90 days. At any time, prior to the 90 day deadline expiring if I leave the country for a non Schengen zone and return (it only needs to be a day in this case) then I am able to spend another 90 days in that same 180 day turnaround.
Very cool that Australians can make back-to-back, 90-day visits to Germany within a 180 day period, on the basis of the bilateral agreement between Germany and Australia. I didn't know that. But I don't think that this legal immigration status in Germany will permit you to cross borders into Schengen countries that don't have a similar bilateral agreement with Australia -- For example, if you spent 90 days in Germany, then made a quick roundtrip to London to "reset the clock," then returned to Germany, and then crossed into Poland or Switzerland, which don't have bilateral agreements with Australia, you would be overstaying in the Schengen area, wouldn't you?
 

jl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances('05, '07), Aragonese ('05), del Norte / Primitivo ('09), Via Tolosana (Toulouse '05), Via Podiensis (Le Puy '07), Via Lemovicensis (Troyes '09), VF ('12), Winter Camino ('13/'14) Cammino d'Assisi ('14) Jakobseweg (Leipzig - Paris '15) San Salvador/Norte ('15) Ignaciano ('16) Invierno ('16)
returned to Germany, and then crossed into Poland or Switzerland, which don't have bilateral agreements with Australia, you would be overstaying in the Schengen area, wouldn't you?
Yes you would, but then how would they know as there weren't border checks prior to Covid_19? I say weren't, because who knows what restrictions will occur after this strange time we are in. I don't think that we should assume that everything will return to as it was prior to all these lock-downs. Germany is not the only country that has bi-lateral trade agreements with Australia, but as I said previously, each one needs long and arduous research to find out what rules apply. The first task is to find the countries which do, then to find the agreement itself, and then to wade through and establish what can and cannot be done. The German bi-lateral trade agreement dates from 1952 and I must admit it was only by a chance discussion with someone at the embassy that I even found out about it - it would never have occurred to me to research such things back as far as 1952! This is not widely advertised, and I would never use this option without the letter of confirmation / explanation from the embassy. Certainly the first time I used it the border guard obviously had no idea what I was talking about, studying my letter in detail, the second, I went straight through the border and I can only assume that was because I had left the Schengen and therefore had no flag against my name, but I have no proof either way.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Us:Camino Frances, 2015 Me:Catalan/Aragonese, 2019
It is advised that if you use extended visas that you keep lodging receipts at least (and others could come in handy) to prove that on your extended stay you were only in the country that granted that privilege.

Although the thread seems to have veered into a discussion about visas I think it is still part of the research that the OP needs to walk long distances in Europe.
 

Raggy

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2017, 2018, 2019
Yes you would, but then how would they know as there weren't border checks prior to Covid_19?
For example, if you were unaware that you were overstaying, and you attempted to board a flight in Warsaw or you walked all the way through Poland and attempted to enter Belarus or Ukraine, they would find out. Hence my post.

I'd advise anyone to be careful not to inadvertently (or deliberately) overstay. It can be costly, time consuming, and inconvenient for years afterward.

Germany is not the only country that has bi-lateral trade agreements with Australia, but as I said previously, each one needs long and arduous research to find out what rules apply. The first task is to find the countries which do, then to find the agreement itself, and then to wade through and establish what can and cannot be done. The German bi-lateral trade agreement dates from 1952 and I must admit it was only by a chance discussion with someone at the embassy that I even found out about it - it would never have occurred to me to research such things back as far as 1952! This is not widely advertised, and I would never use this option without the letter of confirmation / explanation from the embassy.
This page might be a good starting point - but should not be considered legal advice. Very wise to carry written evidence from a reliable source to show border agents:
 
Last edited:
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Del Estrecho, Ruta Fray Leopoldo,
Vía Serrana, Camino Francés
I prefer staying up high in the mountains, rather than hiking through valleys or plains.
Sara, here's a website that might be helpful in your planning. The author devised a high mountain route across Europe: The Trans-European Alpine Route. Lots of suggestions on gear, resupply, and Shengen work-arounds in this link and on the blog. Includes GPS data. Details for 7 sections: The Balkan Mountains, the Balkan Gap, the Dinaric Alps, the Alps, the Massif Central, the Pyrenees, and the Cantabrian Mountains.
Happy planning!
Elaine

 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (14), Portuguese (15), Le Puy (17), Ingles (17), VDLP (18), Lana (18), Madrid (19) + more
Regarding Canada and bilateral visa treaties, I found some stuff in the Treaty Law section of the Global Affairs Canada website. The documents are *in force* but really old (1940-1950s). Sadly, the Spain treaty is not available online - I was really curious to see what it said!
(here is an example for San Marino: https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=102555)

The Entry-Exit-System will make it super hard for individuals to fudge cumulative trips more than 90 days within the 180-day period. I personally don't worry about overstaying by a few days, but when that system is live -NOPE. The officials in Madrid and Barcelona barely glanced at my passport when I exited the last few years.
--------------------------------

OPTION 1: SOUTH - NORTH
Denmark seems to be the only country that is openly advertising the ability to extend the Schengen visa. Hiking from Denmark to Nordkapp, Norway would be difficult to complete in three months. If following the E1 route for example, I would need to average about 42km a day. Plus, the short weather window would be an issue in the far north. The Italy/Switzerland/Germany section of the E1 would have me averaging 38km a day. It *is* possible for a continuous footpath in a six-month period without overstaying - however, I would need to be very disciplined.

If walking segments (rather than continuous) I would rather start at Europe's southernmost point at Tarifa, and meander along the Camino routes up to Santiago, before exiting eastward out of Spain. A neat bonus would be connecting with Europe's westernmost point at Cabo da Roca in Portugal on the way up.
--------------------------------

OPTION 2: EAST - WEST
Elaine, thanks for the link! I met Dylan in Oviedo and he told me he was putting his GPS tracks and information into a website for others. I may just modify his segments to suit my needs. To start out with I'd probably take the Sultan's Trail from Istanbul to connect with Dylan's TEAR route later.

It has been so much fun learning about the different long-distance trails in Europe like the Via Egnatia (which also could be an option departing from Istanbul). The route variations are endless. Research continues, but I think it may be possible to avoid overstaying by too much in the Schengen zone on the way to the ocean. I would need to leave a minimum of 20 days to reach the Spanish border (if going from SJPDP to Finisterre along the Frances).
--------------------------------

The two options are both are equally intriguing for adventuring through different areas of Europe. Perhaps I'll be lucky enough to experience both one day. Until then at home..... my research notebook is filling up!
 
Camino(s) past & future
Us:Camino Frances, 2015 Me:Catalan/Aragonese, 2019
OPTION 1: SOUTH - NORTH
I don't think you can do this because of visa problems. Say you have used your 90 day Schengen visa getting to Denmark. You might have permission to spend an extra 90 days in Denmark but that does not give you permission to enter Norway.

I'm basing this on the website New to Denmark which is a site owned by the Danish Immigration service. Before visiting the link know that the site has changed and you may have to search around for what you want. After the link I have some information that I think came from the site when I last visited three years ago.


Maximum stay periods
If you are travelling visa-free, you may stay in the Schengen region for a maximum of 90 days in any 180-day period. The 90 days can be used either for one long stay or several shorter stays.
The Immigration Service recommends that you use a calendar to count days from the date of entry up to and including the date you leave the country. Note: Both the entry day and the exit day count towards the 90 days in any 180-day period – regardless of the time of day you enter or exit the country. It is always your own responsibility to be aware of how long you are allowed to stay in Denmark.
Read more about maximum stay periods
Citizens of certain countries are entitled to stay in Denmark for 90 days, regardless of stays in other Schengen countries
Citizens of Australia, Canada, Chile, Israel, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and the US can freely enter and stay in Denmark for up to 90 days in any 180-day period, regardless of whether they have stayed in another Schengen country prior to entry into Denmark. The 90 days are counted from the entry date into Denmark or another Nordic country. If you have previously spent time in Denmark or another Nordic country within the previous 180 days, that time will be deducted from the 90-day maximum.
Last update: 6/1/2016



I don't see how they can tell how many days you spent in the other Nordic countries but I think the law was written pre-Schengen when your passport would show stamps.

Sorry.

Edit: If you want to press your luck you could enter Norway if they don't stop you then hurry back to Denmark if they don't stop you and then leave Denmark for a non-Schengen country before your extra 90 days run out.

I don't recommend this.
 
Last edited:
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Del Estrecho, Ruta Fray Leopoldo,
Vía Serrana, Camino Francés
I met Dylan in Oviedo
Sara, what a stroke of luck to have met Dylan and been able to talk to him about his walk. I was impressed with the careful explanations he gave of why he chose a particular route. You are certainly going to have a grand adventure out of this!
Have you read Patrick Leigh Fermor's books about his walk to Constantinople in the 1930's? Not quite the route you are planning, but an enchanting read nevertheless.
The Facebook group Walking in Europe often has interesting posts, and could be another place to ask for info on any remote parts of your route.
A friend of ours who hikes in that area likes the app Mapy.cz for trails.
Here's one more site in that part of the world lurking in my bookmarks for future planning:
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (14), Portuguese (15), Le Puy (17), Ingles (17), VDLP (18), Lana (18), Madrid (19) + more
I don't think you can do this because of visa problems. Say you have used your 90 day Schengen visa getting to Denmark. You might have permission to spend an extra 90 days in Denmark but that does not give you permission to enter Norway.
Denmark Embassy to Canada page

The bilateral agreements allow certain nationals to travel to Denmark and the other Nordic countries visa exempt for up to 90 days per every period of 180 days on the condition that the 90 days visa exempt period according to the Schengen rules has been spent outside of Denmark and the other Nordic countries prior to the visit to Denmark.
......
As passports will not be stamped when travelling between the Schengen countries, we highly recommend that documentation such as bus/train/flight tickets to Denmark as well as hotel receipts and anything else that can document the stay in Denmark and the Nordic countries, is kept handy in case the border police at the Schengen border will ask about the stay.


It seems in the wording that Denmark and the other Nordic countries are lumped together.
I would submit my hiking plan to the Denmark Embassy before booking anything, just in case!
 
Camino(s) past & future
Us:Camino Frances, 2015 Me:Catalan/Aragonese, 2019
It seems in the wording that Denmark and the other Nordic countries are lumped together.
It does seem that way but it gets confusing if you look at the Danish text (Google translation)

Page 16: '... V. Stay in Denmark after three months' stay in another Schengen country
Notwithstanding that they may have resided in another Schengen country prior to their entry into Denmark, nationals from Australia, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Israel, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and the United States, with which Denmark has bilateral visa waiver agreements , the right to freely enter and reside in Denmark for up to three months during a six-month period from the date of first entry into Denmark or another Nordic country. In the three months mentioned, the time within which the foreigner has stayed in Denmark or another Nordic country within the six-month period is deducted. '
 

Torin

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Triacastela- Santaigo
It seems in the wording that Denmark and the other Nordic countries are lumped together.
I would submit my hiking plan to the Denmark Embassy before booking anything, just in case!
The Nordic countries (Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland) belong to the Nordic Passport Union. That’s why the wording is like that. Nordic Passport Union
 
Last edited:
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Del Estrecho, Ruta Fray Leopoldo,
Vía Serrana, Camino Francés
I can't remember if you said you've already hiked this, but if not, another option for the southern portion of a North-South crossing might be the E2/GR5 with its spectacular mountain scenery down the spine of the Alps from Lake Geneva to Nice. This would take you by Mont Blanc and through the Vanoise, the Queyras and the Mercantour National Parks. There are lots of huts where you can camp in the vicinity and still get a hot shower; the trail is very well marked; and the mountains are stunning.
A comprehensive overview with links to many planning resources:
G.R. Five - GR 5
Other links:
 

Raggy

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2017, 2018, 2019
I personally don't worry about overstaying by a few days,
I think it may be possible to avoid overstaying by too much in the Schengen zone on the way to the ocean.
I don't understand the concept of avoiding overstaying by too much. For me, the risk of a temporary ban from visiting a country would oughweigh the benefit of overstaying by a few days. But you're doing your research and only you know how the cost-benefit analysis works out for you so I'll leave it there.
 
Last edited:
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (14), Portuguese (15), Le Puy (17), Ingles (17), VDLP (18), Lana (18), Madrid (19) + more
I don't understand the concept of avoiding overstaying by too much. For me, the risk of a temporary ban from visiting a country would oughweigh the benefit of overstaying by a few days. But you're doing your research and only you know how the cost-benefit analysis works out for you so I'll leave it there.
Not recommended - but I know several North Americans who overstayed in the Schengen area by weeks, and even months - who did not receive any trouble when exiting the EU. They were all VERY lucky not to get caught.

Also, visa rules may be enforced more strongly after COVID-19, if travellers also need to have their vaccine/immunity certificates verified.

I absolutely would never *plan* to overstay (no one likes fines or travel bans) but if I was needing a few more days to complete the journey after walking close to six months..... I could see myself taking the risk. I'd accept full responsibility if flagged.

I sent an email to the Danish Embassy in Canada to clarify the bilateral agreement rule.

And thank you Elaine for all the wonderful links!!!!! 💗
 

anthikes

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
2016 SJPdP > SdC
2018 Porto > SdC
2019 Sevilla > SdC
I would take a look at Christine's blog as she has walked all of Europe from N to S and W to E too. Think she recently finished the E3.

You may well have come across her blog before. She has done the Bibbulmun track three times I think!

Yea visas are a hassle. As a Brit I now sympathise with you over Schengen! If you ever wanted to be based in Europe longer term then I'd recommend Portugal. By having residency here you have free reign to be in the rest of Schengen, providing you don't work. I know quite a few Americans who have done this. Good luck.

https://christine-on-big-trip.blogspot.com/
 

terryvinet

Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances '13, VDLP '16, Salamanca to Santiago/Finesterra/Muxia '17, Madrid/San Salvador '19.

Attachments

Mark McCarthy

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2014 2015
Lourdes 2 SdC 2016
Sarria 2 SdC April&Oct 2016 & (April 2018)
Camino Baztan June 2017
Hi Sara, love the videos! Just as a sugestion is the Via Fracigena from Cantebury to Rome. It is worth looking at the blog from Tim Redmond at www.walkingtim.com Buen Camino!
 

AlwynWellington

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
please see signature
do you know anyone who has actually completed it?
I've completed the last 100 metres into Hagia Sofia in early August 1995 ;) 😇

And at that time I drove a small part of the distance to Edirne before heading south west to Gelibolu (Gallipoli) and on to Ari Burnu, and Chunuk Bair before returning to Istanbul.

Sultan's Way came to my attention when reading BBC news over last weekend. The dedicated website looked reasonable, their kindle publication for walkers was inexpensive and it had been mapped with quite a bit of detail coming to attention prompted me consider it had the feel of a real pilgrimage. And that it had been walked. And so suggested it to @Sara_Dhooma for her consideration.

It would be challenging as to accommodation (I have a tent in my pack) and regularity of meals. And the many languages might be an issue. Not to mention navigation. And recharging a smart phone (tablet in my case) and camera.

But what an adventure to now travel through Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia as these were "out of bounds" when I drove from Athens to Vienna in July 1971.

@Bad Pilgrim, kia kaha (Take care, be strong, get going when you can)
 

Margaret Butterworth

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
2013 (Pamplona to Burgos)
2014 (Burgos to Villafranca del Bierzo)
2015 (Villafranca to Santiago)
2016 (Le Puy to Conques; SJPP To Pamplona)
I would take a look at Christine's blog as she has walked all of Europe from N to S and W to E too. Think she recently finished the E3.

You may well have come across her blog before. She has done the Bibbulmun track three times I think!

Yea visas are a hassle. As a Brit I now sympathise with you over Schengen! If you ever wanted to be based in Europe longer term then I'd recommend Portugal. By having residency here you have free reign to be in the rest of Schengen, providing you don't work. I know quite a few Americans who have done this. Good luck.

https://christine-on-big-trip.blogspot.com/
Wow! Christine has been everywhere!
 

Bad Pilgrim

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Far too many...
I've completed the last 100 metres into Hagia Sofia in early August 1995 ;) 😇

And at that time I drove a small part of the distance to Edirne before heading south west to Gelibolu (Gallipoli) and on to Ari Burnu, and Chunuk Bair before returning to Istanbul.

Sultan's Way came to my attention when reading BBC news over last weekend. The dedicated website looked reasonable, their kindle publication for walkers was inexpensive and it had been mapped with quite a bit of detail coming to attention prompted me consider it had the feel of a real pilgrimage. And that it had been walked. And so suggested it to @Sara_Dhooma for her consideration.

It would be challenging as to accommodation (I have a tent in my pack) and regularity of meals. And the many languages might be an issue. Not to mention navigation. And recharging a smart phone (tablet in my case) and camera.

But what an adventure to now travel through Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia as these were "out of bounds" when I drove from Athens to Vienna in July 1971.

@Bad Pilgrim, kia kaha (Take care, be strong, get going when you can)
Yes, the website looked nice. I browsed the info. Don't know why it caught my attention: I never walked in Eastern Europe at all. I hope to see it soon through the eyes of Sara - or someone else…!
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (14), Portuguese (15), Le Puy (17), Ingles (17), VDLP (18), Lana (18), Madrid (19) + more
Good news from the Danish Embassy!
They sent me back a detailed email linking information to show the immigration officers.

Part of the email:
Yes, the Nordic countries have a special bilateral agreement with Canada that allows Canadian citizens to spend time in any non-Nordic Schengen country for up to 90 days and then essentially get an additional 90 days in the Nordic region after that.

So it is legally allowed for me to continue travelling northbound from the Danish border up through the Nordic countries.

💃
 

Goran

New member almost four years
Camino(s) past & future
CF '17., SJPdP-Santiago
CP '18., Lisbon-Santiago
CN '19., Irun-Santiago
VdlP '20., Seville-Santiago?
Regarding Canada and bilateral visa treaties, I found some stuff in the Treaty Law section of the Global Affairs Canada website. The documents are *in force* but really old (1940-1950s). Sadly, the Spain treaty is not available online - I was really curious to see what it said!
(here is an example for San Marino: https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=102555)

The Entry-Exit-System will make it super hard for individuals to fudge cumulative trips more than 90 days within the 180-day period. I personally don't worry about overstaying by a few days, but when that system is live -NOPE. The officials in Madrid and Barcelona barely glanced at my passport when I exited the last few years.
--------------------------------

OPTION 1: SOUTH - NORTH
Denmark seems to be the only country that is openly advertising the ability to extend the Schengen visa. Hiking from Denmark to Nordkapp, Norway would be difficult to complete in three months. If following the E1 route for example, I would need to average about 42km a day. Plus, the short weather window would be an issue in the far north. The Italy/Switzerland/Germany section of the E1 would have me averaging 38km a day. It *is* possible for a continuous footpath in a six-month period without overstaying - however, I would need to be very disciplined.

If walking segments (rather than continuous) I would rather start at Europe's southernmost point at Tarifa, and meander along the Camino routes up to Santiago, before exiting eastward out of Spain. A neat bonus would be connecting with Europe's westernmost point at Cabo da Roca in Portugal on the way up.
--------------------------------

OPTION 2: EAST - WEST
Elaine, thanks for the link! I met Dylan in Oviedo and he told me he was putting his GPS tracks and information into a website for others. I may just modify his segments to suit my needs. To start out with I'd probably take the Sultan's Trail from Istanbul to connect with Dylan's TEAR route later.

It has been so much fun learning about the different long-distance trails in Europe like the Via Egnatia (which also could be an option departing from Istanbul). The route variations are endless. Research continues, but I think it may be possible to avoid overstaying by too much in the Schengen zone on the way to the ocean. I would need to leave a minimum of 20 days to reach the Spanish border (if going from SJPDP to Finisterre along the Frances).
--------------------------------

The two options are both are equally intriguing for adventuring through different areas of Europe. Perhaps I'll be lucky enough to experience both one day. Until then at home..... my research notebook is filling up!
Hi Sara,

If you will take Sultan's Trail from Istanbul to connect with Dylan's TEAR route later take into account that some countries are not in schengen area, so you can stay/travel for instance through Croatia during 90 days and you will not spend any of 90 days of shengen visa.
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF 03,04
88 Temples16
Port. 17
LePuy, Norte, Prim 18
Ingles 18
Jakobova, Arles, Aragon,Baztan 19
though there is no long stay Visa for Schengen Zone, you can still get one for specific countries, and still spend 90 days out of 180 in rest of Schengen zone. So my plan for 2020 (now 2022) was to apply for a long stay Tourist Visa in France. The big issue with that is you really need to land in France to start your long stay. so i was going to Fly to Lyon (i have a friend there that was my base, and from there go to my starting point) and walk with significant portion of Camino in France, as time in France should not count in the 90 in 180 of Schengen
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF 03,04
88 Temples16
Port. 17
LePuy, Norte, Prim 18
Ingles 18
Jakobova, Arles, Aragon,Baztan 19
Hi Sara,

If you will take Sultan's Trail from Istanbul to connect with Dylan's TEAR route later take into account that some countries are not in schengen area, so you can stay/travel for instance through Croatia during 90 days and you will not spend any of 90 days of shengen visa.
provided by time we can travel the Schengen zone has not changed. Are Bulgaria and Romania still going to be left out, when the EU needs to show unity to potentially survive
 

hecate105

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
'09 Portuguese Estellas '14 Aurelia '16 St Davids '17 Via Augusta/V dl P. '18/'19 Michael Mary Way
If you cross the Alps as someone suggested earlier - the route ended nr the Med - from Menton you could hike the Via Aurelia - which is a gorgeous walk(the bits I've done so far!) Much thru mountains, then down to the sea after Cannes - up into the Estorel Mtns - where you get the bonus of the largest Black Madonna statue in the world (dedicated to the memory of all the folk dying in the Algerian War.....) it is an awesome way to cross Provence and into Wester/South France - where you could elect to take the high route (a la Nicholas Crane - in the book recommended earlier) which would bring you to the Franch/Spanish Atlantic coast - to join the Camino Norte - which after all the mountains will be a seaside perambulation for you!! Then after SdeC - as someone else suggested take the Via De Plata down to Seville - and the variant Via Augusta to Cadiz (not missing the Bodegas Tradicion for the superlative art and 50 yr old sherry!! nor the seafood sublimeness of Cadiz) then Gibraltaris a skip away.......
 

NolaVulling

Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances-2011&2012, Portuguese- 2013,from the Netherlands -2014, Del Norte-2017
Thank you everyone for your suggestions! I have lots to research. :)

Terry - the reason why I want to do this hike in 2021 is before the ETIAS visa system further complicates travel in Europe. And before more countries join in the Schengen-visa program! I'll try my best not to overstay through my routing. If I need to jump around and spilt up the hike - that is also a possibility.

It would be much simpler with a EU passport. :(
Hi Sara
As an Australian we also face the 90 day rule but when I walked from the Netherlands in 2014 I applied for and was granted a long term stay visa for France that gave me 5 months in the Schengen zone. I also understand that Australia has some bi-lateral trade agreements that allow us to stay for longer as long as we spend certain amounts of time within those Trade Agreement countries so perhaps you could check that out in Canada also.
I got my long term stay visa for France beacuse that was the country in which I would spend the most time. So perhaps once you have decided your route you could also apply for a similiar visa. Quite a few hoops to jump through, such as proof of financial capability and of course health insurance. But, in my opinion worth every bit of it. I walked for 109 days but was away for around 125 days. Happy planning and buen Camino.
 
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