Corruption in Spain

[Deleted member 3000]

Syria and Spain had the largest drop in perceived "honesty" in the latest poll. Denmark and New Zealand were the least corrupt!!

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results

Note that it is about perceived corruption, not a statistical analysis of actual corruption. The response of Spanish law enforcement seems quite good based on reports in this Forum.

The Corruption Perceptions Index 2013 serves as a reminder that the abuse of power, secret dealings and bribery continue to ravage societies around the world.

The Index scores 177 countries and territories on a scale from 0 (highly corrupt) to 100 (very clean). No country has a perfect score, and two-thirds of countries score below 50. This indicates a serious, worldwide corruption problem. Hover on the map above to see how your country fares.

 

[freescot]

Hi Falcon,
Actually I'm surprised it's not worse given the daily barrage of reports on corruption in the main political parties, the trade unions, the judiciary and royalty. Taking 10%+ for awarding contracts has been part of Spanish culture and with the vast number of politicians - some say there are more politicians than civil servants - there has been plenty of scope for raking off a bit all the time. Europe did not monitor the awarding of contracts for the huge public works, like motorways, or the schemes to help development in the poorer areas or the subsidies for green energy. Spain has more motorways, railway lines and electricity than it needs. In 2005 foundation stones for 10 huge new hospitals were laid, in Madrid alone. Everyone felt rich and in these years the population of the country grew with an influx of 7,000,000 people, mainly from Latin America. There was money everywhere so nobody complained about the rake-offs or lack of control. It was a great fiesta.

The reality, though, is that the pèople were duped into believing they were rich and the fact is that Spain is not a very rich country but can produce enough to live on and fairly well since it is a huge food producer.
Also, and this is the most important part for the Camino: you can trust the police and the Guardia Civil, you will not be asked to pay above the odds, you will only rarely be given short change and have an equal chance of being given too much. Prices are posted in all restaurants and bars and no-one will treat you any differently if you don't give a tip. You will never need to bribe anyone. When I live in the country, for the cities are different, I don't need to lock my car or my house. The vast majority of Spaniards are very honest in personal dealings with each other and with foreigners.
Things have changed in certain areas and caution is important in the big cities and tourist areas. On the camino if you feel you have been cheated anywhere you can complain. I find the most effective way is to walk into the local town hall and make a complaint, usually to whoever is in charge of the medio-ambiente, the environment. They have a remit which covers hotels etc. or you will be directed to whoever deals with your problem. There are complaint forms in all establishments but I find these tend to get lost.

Overall, for every horror story you hear, there are a thousand positive tales. For pilgrims it is even more positive since they have a special status in Spain and are valued, not just for their money, but because they participate in an important part of the culture of Spain directly; they are adopted into its soul.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I think the most telling and disheartening fact is how resigned the average Spaniard is to rampant corruption, cronyism and influence-peddling in high places. A recent discussion ended with just about everyone round the table ageeing that "yes, if I had a high-level job I´d take advantage just like they do. Wouldn´t you?"

 

[Magwood]

We live in Andalucia. Recently both a barrister and his brother who is a judge offered to reduce their invoices if we chose not to pay IVA (VAT)! Incredible!

.....Camino Frances with my daughter: http://magwood.wordpress.com

 

[Tincatinker]

In the UK the base- line assumption is that politicians are corrupt. Be they Members of Parliament with their company directorships or local councillors with their friends who need planning permission for their latest blight on Albion. I perceive (accept?) a subtler form, where jobs go to those who know, contracts go to cousins and bar jobs go to nephews. If all that is happening is that work, wage and hope for the future is kept within family and community then I don't perceive that as corrupt. If its costing communities / taxpayers more than it should or could because some members club are filling their back pockets - that is another tale. Transparency are less than clear on their measures and standards and therefore, for me, do not live up to their name. It's fun grabbing headlines, and funding, with bald statements of debatable statistics produced from applying your own ruler to the measured mile. Sadly it doesn't contribute much to changing the status quo;"they are all bent and there is nothing I can do but bend in their direction".

"If I had power I would be like them." Oh what a sad summary of the human condition.

 

[karenfromcali]

I think the most telling and disheartening fact is how resigned the average Spaniard is to rampant corruption, cronyism and influence-peddling in high places. A recent discussion ended with just about everyone round the table ageeing that "yes, if I had a high-level job I´d take advantage just like they do. Wouldn´t you?"

This is really sad to hear, but I believe is not exclusive to Spain. I know they are going through a difficult period due to the economy. It is difficult for anyone who works hard and struggles to make ends meet while seeing those who are corrupt and in high places seem to be doing fine. I think they have become discouraged. Unfortunately discouragement can lead to resignation. The Spanish are a strong, hard working, honest and upright people and I hope this difficult time will be over for them, and for all of us soon.

 

[stevenjarvis]

In the UK the base- line assumption is that politicians are corrupt. Be they Members of Parliament with their company directorships or local councillors with their friends who need planning permission for their latest blight on Albion.

Tincatinker, at the risk of promoting a political discussion, what is the evidence for your statement, above ?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The survey is on the perception of corruption, so it is its own proof that people think negatively of the UK government, which is rated a bit higher than the U.S. Even the top rated nations are not universally regarded as not corrupt, and the lowest rated countries are almost intuitively obvious!

Actual corruption will depend quite a bit on the definition that is given to the term. There are airports where you cannot get your passport stamped without some baksheesh, and it is considered as normal as tipping a waiter.

I found the survey interesting only because it shows that a lot of "western" countries do not seem to be inspiring confidence in institutional honesty (yes, I know that Japan is not in the west, though it is rated right around the UK and the U.S.).

 

[Tincatinker]

Steven, I'll strive to tread lightly on dodgy ground; and cite experience as an auditor in public office, the mere existence of the Parliamentary Standards Commision and my blessed mother's clearly expressed opinions whenever she is door-stepped by a would be councillor or MP.

 

[Adrian961]

It's all relative. The more one travels to far off places the more one realises that hopes, fears, aspirations, joy, misery etc are universal. You can be unlucky but are overwhemlingly more likely to deal with people who are hospitable, kind and a bit like you. As I live in a place that takes for granted the rule of law, independent judiciary, democracy, womens rights, welfare, universal health care & education, when corruption rears it's head is all the more galling......the leader of my local council recently went to gaol for corruption... Elsewhere people just shrug and get on with their lives. It's worth bearing in mind that Spain, Portugal, Greece, Germany, France (5th Republic) & Italy have been democracies with independent judiciary etc for less time put together than some anglophone countries. Civil society ought not be taken for granted.

 

[piogaw]

Hello falcon,

I also read the article from the news report this morning. The perception index in spain is getting worse because everyday you hear about corruption in all levels of society at the expenses of the common people. The political parties whether it is left wing or right wing, the spanish royal family in the case of the son-in-laws are mired in corruption, etc. the more things change, the more things stay the same. At the end of the pyramid it is the poor peoples of spain who suffered the most.

 

[vicrev]

So sad that people seem to accept the corruption that exists, in some countries, is normal, & it's more disturbing, that they want in on the action......greed & envy aren't a very good combination.................Vicrev.

 

[Tia Valeria]

Many years ago we worked in a country that had a military coup. They then ordered all local government employees, amomgst others, to report for work at a given time on a given day. They could hardly all get into the building, never mind their offices. Nepotism run rife. The world is a sinful place.
However what does any of this really have to do with the Camino apart from trying, as pilgrims, to seek a better way?

 

[freescot]

Many years ago we worked in a country that had a military coup. They then ordered all local government employees, amomgst others, to report for work at a given time on a given day. They could hardly all get into the building, never mind their offices. Nepotism run rife. The world is a sinful place.
However what does any of this really have to do with the Camino apart from trying, as pilgrims, to seek a better way?

I replied to the thread because I have met, on the Camino, enough people who had concerns about Spain before arriving or had to persuade parents they would be safe. Reports like this place Spain with countries which are far from safe. On this score I love the testimony of the volunteer who was working in the Pilgrims' Office giving out Compostellas and is quoted on Johnnie Walker's blog remembering, "Two little 15year old boys from Madrid, small fine boned children. They were on their own. “My mother said it would be safe on the Camino.” Blessed are children who have parents that allow them to spread their wings.”"

 

[Tia Valeria]

Just to clarify my previous post. I was not referring to Spain when I wrote about my experience of corruption in 'high' places. I should also add that wages were so low that it was probably a case of survival.
As Freescot says Spain is a good place to be.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The people "on the ground" are noisy and aggressive and sometimes take advantage, but they are almost never violent or dangerous. The really awful and dangerous people in Spain seem to be the ones wearing suits and carrying briefcases.

 

[jpflavin1]

I am not sure what this thread has to do with the camino. The title is misleading and actually, imo, somewhat inflammatory.

If the survey has no statistical merit, what is the intended goal of the post? Is this an FYI post?

If so, possibly a title change to "Worldwide corruption survey" might better reflect the substance.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[stevenjarvis]

Steven, I'll strive to tread lightly on dodgy ground; and cite experience as an auditor in public office, the mere existence of the Parliamentary Standards Commision and my blessed mother's clearly expressed opinions whenever she is door-stepped by a would be councillor or MP.

Tincatinker, I'm sorry your ground is dodgy ! So that's anecdotal evidence from a small sample. Your statement suggested a more robust evidence base, not simply your strongly held personal opinion.

 

[vicrev]

I am not sure what this thread has to do with the camino. The title is misleading and actually, imo, somewhat inflammatory.

If the survey has no statistical merit, what is the intended goal of the post? Is this an FYI post?

If so, possibly a title change to "Worldwide corruption survey" might better reflect the substance.

Ultreya,
Joe

I agree ,it is about PERCEIVED corruption,no facts whatsoever ,(read their website) in other words,slots into the Fairytales & Bedtime Stories category...having said that ,I am not saying corruption doesn't exist.....what has this got to do with this Forum anyway ??........................Vicrev

 

[vicrev]

The survey is on the perception of corruption, so it is its own proof that people think negatively of the UK government, which is rated a bit higher than the U.S. Even the top rated nations are not universally regarded as not corrupt, and the lowest rated countries are almost intuitively obvious!

Actual corruption will depend quite a bit on the definition that is given to the term. There are airports where you cannot get your passport stamped without some baksheesh, and it is considered as normal as tipping a waiter.

I found the survey interesting only because it shows that a lot of "western" countries do not seem to be inspiring confidence in institutional honesty (yes, I know that Japan is not in the west, though it is rated right around the UK and the U.S.).

Careful,this is a good (or bad,whichever way you look at it ) example of how Urban Myth can be transformed into Fact............Vicrev

 

[Annie Little]

"""Denmark and New Zealand were the least corrupt!!""

I too agree with jpflavin … am not sure what this has to do with Camino… however should point out that thousands of NZ ers are now in Australia…. which may explain the lack of corruption in NZ … we love our NZ friends such great accents …… sooo really it should say that Australia has one of the least corruption … we don't really care cos we are busy putting the " shrimp on the barbie " and sitting in the sun !!! oh well I only mean if you live in QLD

 

[ivar]

Let's move on...