Court Ordered Camino

[dgassa]

I know in past times, Courts would make someone walk the Camino instead of going to jail or some other punishment for crimes committed. But is this true today? In Spain could a young adult say be sentenced to probation and made to walk the Camino instead of some other punishment.?

 

[cher99840]

Very interesting question and I look forward to responses. From judgemental me, a resounding "I hope not!!"

 

[oursonpolaire]

This was done, at least until two years ago when there was talk about cancelling the programme, by Belgian authorities. Some young offenders were offered the chance to walk the Camino with an adult (usually a retired constable or teacher) from Belgium on a very limited budget, with no cellphone or internet access permitted. I had the good fortune to meet one of these pairs on the del Norte and was impressed with the retired teacher's work with the young man who, after 6 weeks' walking, had certainly matured. I had also met a Belgian nurse who had walked with a young offender two years ago, and her account of what it meant to the girl was very moving.

Clearly, it's not something which works for everyone, but for many young offenders, just moving them out of their peer group, and giving them time for reflection, and in an activity which absorbs youthful energy, it might well be a helpful solution.

 

[mspath]

For more information re such rehabilitative programs during the recent past on the camino see this earlier Forum thread.
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/juvenile-penitent-pilgrims.1043/

 

[domigee]

Yup, I met this month a Belgium teacher who had been walking the Camino with young offenders. She was on her own when our paths crossed but she told me it had been a wonderful experience for all concerned and very rewarding.

 

[Sheilajg]

There was a young man walking along who was apparently trying to dry out from booze. He had done it via the Camino previously and was trying again. Sadly, it wasn't working and he was quite drunk and begging for booze a lot. It was concerning that he might have a serious accident walking while drunk. It wasn't the best idea on some of those trails. Other than that, I love the idea, especially walking with a mentor as mentioned above.

 

[Felipe]

There is an experience in Spain. See this note about a recent case (June 2016). I have read about this in the past years, too.
I'd add that the practice has medieval precedents. It was more personal, individual, because jail terms as sentence is a relatively modern innovation. And the courts implied were ecclesiastical.

 

[Deleted member 43985]

Very interesting question and I look forward to responses. From judgemental me, a resounding "I hope not!!"

Hi @cher99840 - It's a curious reply and wondering if you would elaborate why you hope not? If my history is correct a significant number of Pilgrims since the beginning of its history have been made to walk the Camino for this very reason albeit under the authority of the Church rather than that of the law. Wondering what is different between then and now?

 

[alansykes]

Yup, I met this month a Belgium teacher who had been walking the Camino with young offenders. She was on her own when our paths crossed but she told me it had been a wonderful experience for all concerned and very rewarding.

I met an Oikoten couple (German young offender and his French "walker") at the albergue in Ourense a couple of years ago. Sounded like a great idea, but I don't think it was working in his case. He was a chain-smoking and belligerent teenager, and she had the patience of a saint (which she needed). I hope they made it to the tomb, but didn't see them in Cea the next (very rainy) day, so suspect not.

 

[cher99840]

Hi @cher99840 - It's a curious reply and wondering if you would elaborate why you hope not? If my history is correct a significant number of Pilgrims since the beginning of its history have been made to walk the Camino for this very reason albeit under the authority of the Church rather than that of the law. Wondering what is different between then and now?

Hi Jozero, I'd love to elaborate; thanks for asking. I'm more used to people suggesting I get to the point rather than requesting greater detail.

I am reading the posts on mentoring with great interest. I think it would be great for counsellors to recommend the Camino and that volunteers be willing to assist people with preparing for the journey , maybe even helping them gather their kit.

I responded the way I did for a couple of reasons. First I am in the US and the very thought of making the offer to walk across Spain or go to jail is just unrealistic. Most people would choose the walk but would be unable to pull it off financially, and if they did, would likely embrace it as one long pub crawl. I am not addressing the pluses and minuses of the European justice system because I know nothing about it.

Finally, in my 41 years in a 12 step program I have seen countless souls directed to meetings with a form to have signed proving their attendance. I'm sure there have been some success stories among this horde, but I have not personally witnessed any. I simply do not like for a judge to order people to take part in activities when willingness is the key to the hoped for changes.

 

[Older Guy]

In the USA at times there have been "Outward Bound" survival or camping skill building trips allowed to substitute for juvenile community service or probation. I could see the Camino providing the same kind of motivational/transformational experience.

 

[Introibo]

When I walked the Frances I had an interesting chat with a lovely French pilgrim called Jaques.
He told me the only two other fellow countrymen he'd met were two female pilgrims. One a prison
warder, the other her young charge. The latter had chosen to walk to Santiago rather than a
custodial sentence. No idea how it all ended

 

[domigee]

In France (maybe Belgium too?), they have 'projet seuil: marcher pour s'en sortir'. I met some young people who were part of it last year on VdlP, they were the 'carers'.
This year there was a young boy, 14, who was on it too, with one 'carer' and really, most of us too .
I can't say any more, words don't come, it was just very moving because it was ...well, from what I witnessed over days, it had a wonderful impact.

http://assoseuil.org

 

[domigee]

I know in past times, Courts would make someone walk the Camino instead of going to jail or some other punishment for crimes committed. ?

I have also read that in the Middle Ages, people who had killed someone were sometimes given the choice: hang or....carry the body of the one you killed all the way to Santiago!
Can't remember where I get this from though...

 

[Older Guy]

When I walked the Frances I had an interesting chat with a lovely French pilgrim called Jaques.
He told me the only two other fellow countrymen he'd met were two female pilgrims. One a prison
warder, the other her young charge. The latter had chosen to walk to Santiago rather than a
custodial sentence. No idea how it all ended

Probably ended as a case of true love!

 

[Castilian]

Is any of this court ordered? I don't think so. These are projects for preparing social reintegration, of which there is a a large variety in various countries. Participation is voluntary I think, and if anything, a court grants permission to participate instead of ordering it. A far cry from the Middle Ages.

There's a judge of minors (i.e.: of people younger than 18 years old) that sentenced a group to make (part of) the Camino de Santiago. Some years later he met one of the (by then) minors that were sentenced to make it. You can read about the meeting at his blog:

www.granadablogs.com/juezcalatayud/2016/02/reencuentro-con-una-joven-a-la-que-condene-a-hacer-el-camino-de-santiago

 

[oursonpolaire]

Someone more knowledgeable than I can perhaps confirm this-- but the Belgian teacher told me that young offenders were judicially sentenced after consultation, and sentences normally included a rehabilitation plan, and that the walk to Santiago was part of this. As well, the offender would have to write an assessment of the experience and be interviewed by (IIRC) a commission or committee which could recommend that his file be closed, or that further work was required.

@cher99840; I gather that the costs were borne by the state as are custodial costs in most countries. When I met with the two Belgians in (I think) 2011, they had a total allowance of 15€ per diem, for all of their costs (food, accommodation, etc). A German pilgrim, a retired army officer, bought them lunch one day, and I did the next. The officer asked the guide if the young varmint was allowed wine at lunch, and we were assured it was permitted. He had his one glass and enjoyed his French fries greatly, as it was an improvement over his usual cheese, sausage & bread diet. The officer later told me that he thought most "young fools" would be straightened out by a walk of 1800km.

 

[annakappa]

We have twice encountered a group of prisoners ( about 12 each time) walking a stretch of the Camino, under the guardianship of a couple people in charge of them.
On the second occasion, the person in charge told us that there were a dozen such groups actually walking part if the Camino at that moment.

 

[Deleted member 43985]

Hi Jozero, I'd love to elaborate; thanks for asking. I'm more used to people suggesting I get to the point rather than requesting greater detail.

I am reading the posts on mentoring with great interest. I think it would be great for counsellors to recommend the Camino and that volunteers be willing to assist people with preparing for the journey , maybe even helping them gather their kit.

I responded the way I did for a couple of reasons. First I am in the US and the very thought of making the offer to walk across Spain or go to jail is just unrealistic. Most people would choose the walk but would be unable to pull it off financially, and if they did, would likely embrace it as one long pub crawl. I am not addressing the pluses and minuses of the European justice system because I know nothing about it.

Finally, in my 41 years in a 12 step program I have seen countless souls directed to meetings with a form to have signed proving their attendance. I'm sure there have been some success stories among this horde, but I have not personally witnessed any. I simply do not like for a judge to order people to take part in activities when willingness is the key to the hoped for changes.

I appreciate the openness of this reply and understand a little better now your original reply.

With preface that I am not saying any of your thoughts are wrong, I'll share my thoughts. If a young person has perpetrated an act whereby they find themselves in front of a Judge and waiting for a 'sentence' (for a relatively moderate infraction only and not the @domigee medieval example!) and the options were a short-term incarceration or an equivalent time spent walking the Camino, I think there is a greater chance of leaving the person in a better position to be a productive part of their community at the end of the Camino option. Is it feasible from north america, no. Do I believe it would work 100% of the time, no, but I do believe it would be more often than it would with the incarceration route, especially in north america where stats show that once you're in the system you are pretty likely going to be back again soon. A friend of mine from Belgium has a cousin who was one of the volunteers for this program. My understanding is that it wasn't mandated but they were given the 'either/or' option. They walked from Belgium to SDC and carried their homes on their backs (tent) for the whole trip. She said in this case it was a great success for the young person she was escorting. Even if this is the only success out of 10 tries, I like the idea!

 

[SYates]

... Despite all the modern examples that have been referred to, I still feel that the modern practice has nothing to do with the penitential pilgrimages of the Middle Ages.

That is correct ;-) as the medieval sentence was more like 'get out off here asap and don't dare to come back before you have been to Santiago and have received absolution.' I don't know of any 'medieval criminal' that was accompanied by a qualified social worker or the like ;-) Buen Camino, SY

 

[Jotown]

Earlier this year I met a group of 3 on the Via Francigena, doing exactly this !!
1 adult, 2 teenage boys ( from Belgium) ... All 3 carrying huge rucksacks, as they had to be able to be independent, so carried tents etc, although they did stay in pilgrim accommodation if available.( not often)
I lifted one of the rucksacks... I couldn't carry it 1 km, never mind 1500 to Rome !!
Both boys were well mannered, nice young men, trying to set their lives straight ( in my view)
The adult ( I think a social worker) was very good with them, allowing independence, but spurring them on as needed...
They left me behind in Switzerland, I hope they got to Rome !

 

[Deleted member 43985]

Interesting, thank you. I understand from Wikipedia that Emilio Calatayud is known in Spain for his "sentencias rehabilitatorias y ejemplares" for young offenders.

Despite all the modern examples that have been referred to, I still feel that the modern practice has nothing to do with the penitential pilgrimages of the Middle Ages.

It feels the same to me. Someone did something wrong and the authority of the time gave them the opportunity to use Pilgrimage as a catalyst for change. Although the body of authority has changed the desired outcome seems to be very similar; be a better person, internally and externally, and follow the rules.

 

[maggiec]

I know in past times, Courts would make someone walk the Camino instead of going to jail or some other punishment for crimes committed. But is this true today? In Spain could a young adult say be sentenced to probation and made to walk the Camino instead of some other punishment.?

I walked with a prisoner and his guard for a little way last year!

 

[grayland]

I met a pair, a young man and a his female chaperone, on the VdlP.
The boy was not enthusiastic but I did not see and overt problems..other than the fact that he would be "not feeling well" and stay in his bunk until pushed out by the Hospitalaros.
It seem odd as the difference in age of the two was not as large as I thought it should be. Maybe she just looked young.

 

[jelle]

I was surprised to see the word "Oikoten" in the monthly statistics published by the Santiago Pilgrim's Office. You find it under the heading "Profesiones de los peregrinos". 6 in July, 1 in June, and 1 in May of this year, and 13 in total last year (2015). Oikoten is the name of the Belgian programme already mentioned in this thread.

Is any of this court ordered? I don't think so. These are projects for preparing social reintegration, of which there is a a large variety in various countries. Participation is voluntary I think, and if anything, a court grants permission to participate instead of ordering it. A far cry from the Middle Ages.

Hi,
In Belgium there is a book on 30 years of oikoten in support of the organisation in order to be able to continue the project since government funding was cut back 2 years ago.
For those interested it is called "Ik dus naar Compostella" published by Lannoo. Unfortunately for non-Dutch speakers. it is in Dutch...

We organized a reading of the book with some past oikoten walkers, both guides and juveniles and I was very impressed by these people. As a guide it is definitely a hard thing to do. They specifically choose guides with "life experience" but avoid people whose job relates to dealing with delinquents. For the juveniles it is very much a leap of faith. Often they mistrust the system of institutions and are not used to people believing in them. That is what oikoten is all about. Giving the juveniles a second chance, showing them people can care about them and giving them a positive life experience.

It is all voluntary. Some judges and social workers look for young delinquents who might benefit from the experience and offer them the opportunity. Often linked to "independent living" and leaving the institution after the trip.
So it is not court ordered but a judge needs to be OK with it. Since the juveniles are often -18 they need permission by their guardian, which is the judge if they are internalised in an institution, is my understanding.

 

[Deleted member 43780]

Fact or fiction? I do not know. But been told many times over the years that.....

Years ago the Spanish Army would punish soldiers by making them walk the Camino Frances.
Believe time limit was about 30 days or less. Shorter time to walk than a good walker. This was to make them really walk and not play around.

Budget for them was limited. Not a cafe/bar type of walk/hike we do these days.

Believe the choice was jail or some other horrible duty. Many elected to do the Camino.

They had to carry a large heavy pack and rifle (no rounds of course). Story is most of the time they slept in either barracks or outside on the Camino.

Thinking was they would have time to think about their wrongs. Suffer some. And get into shape.

Too bad we don't give out the same sentence today!

I will try to look this up and post the source.

I have heard this from more than one Spaniard over the years.

I would say this punishment was dished out during the Franco years.

 

[expmrw]

I know in past times, Courts would make someone walk the Camino instead of going to jail or some other punishment for crimes committed. But is this true today? In Spain could a young adult say be sentenced to probation and made to walk the Camino instead of some other punishment.?

 

[expmrw]

We walked with a young Belgian girl in 2011. We shared the day with her on the first day she had been allowed to walk ahead of her minder. She was a nice lass with a difficult past. She explained how tight the budget was and all the restrictions but was so grateful for the oppurtunity. Seems to me it was a good system if the candidates are chosen wisely

 

[Sansthing]

I met a French social worker and young offender on the VDLP a couple of years ago, and our paths crossed so often we became friends and ended up doing most of the Camino together. The social worker had a tough job at times but handled difficult situations very well and the improvement in the behaviour of his charge was noticeable. It may not be suitable for all cases, but in my opinion any attempt to turn a young person away from a possible life of crime is well worth it.

 

[PEI_Heather]

I appreciate the openness of this reply and understand a little better now your original reply.

With preface that I am not saying any of your thoughts are wrong, I'll share my thoughts. If a young person has perpetrated an act whereby they find themselves in front of a Judge and waiting for a 'sentence' (for a relatively moderate infraction only and not the @domigee medieval example!) and the options were a short-term incarceration or an equivalent time spent walking the Camino, I think there is a greater chance of leaving the person in a better position to be a productive part of their community at the end of the Camino option. Is it feasible from north america, no. Do I believe it would work 100% of the time, no, but I do believe it would be more often than it would with the incarceration route, especially in north america where stats show that once you're in the system you are pretty likely going to be back again soon. A friend of mine from Belgium has a cousin who was one of the volunteers for this program. My understanding is that it wasn't mandated but they were given the 'either/or' option. They walked from Belgium to SDC and carried their homes on their backs (tent) for the whole trip. She said in this case it was a great success for the young person she was escorting. Even if this is the only success out of 10 tries, I like the idea!

Just be aware Jozero that North America consists of three countries: Canada, the United States and Mexico. We are all completely different countries.... I think you are referring to the US in your posting....? We here in Canada have much in common in many ways with our American neighbours, but also are very much not alike in others--in our legal and judicial systems, for example.

 

[Trevor Ockenden]

Very interesting question and I look forward to responses. From judgemental me, a resounding "I hope not!!"

I am very curious as to why you say so emphatically "I hope not!!". I'm not suggesting anything by asking this question but genuinely curious to know you reasoning.

 

[cher99840]

I am very curious as to why you say so emphatically "I hope not!!". I'm not suggesting anything by asking this question but genuinely curious to know you reasoning.

Hi Trevor, If you scroll up you will see my explanation. Jozero asked as you did, and I explained it then.

 

[SabsP]

Hi,
In Belgium there is a book on 30 years of oikoten in support of the organisation in order to be able to continue the project since government funding was cut back 2 years ago.
For those interested it is called "Ik dus naar Compostella" published by Lannoo. Unfortunately for non-Dutch speakers. it is in Dutch...

We organized a reading of the book with some past oikoten walkers, both guides and juveniles and I was very impressed by these people. As a guide it is definitely a hard thing to do. They specifically choose guides with "life experience" but avoid people whose job relates to dealing with delinquents. For the juveniles it is very much a leap of faith. Often they mistrust the system of institutions and are not used to people believing in them. That is what oikoten is all about. Giving the juveniles a second chance, showing them people can care about them and giving them a positive life experience.

It is all voluntary. Some judges and social workers look for young delinquents who might benefit from the experience and offer them the opportunity. Often linked to "independent living" and leaving the institution after the trip.
So it is not court ordered but a judge needs to be OK with it. Since the juveniles are often -18 they need permission by their guardian, which is the judge if they are internalised in an institution, is my understanding.

Cheers Jelle for the perfect explanation! As a fellow Belgian I can only confirm that the book Ik dus naar Compostela is a beautiful read.

 

[jrm]

I'm listening to the Camino podcast that Ivar so helpfully posted about and the host talks about walking St. Olav's behind a group of incarcerated men who had applied to be able to walk. 8 men, one warden, and a guide. Sounds like it still happens!

 

[SabsP]

Beautiful short documentary on Belgian TV. First seven minutes are about a Belgian filmmaker who in 1999 graduated in filmschool with a shortfilm about a young delinquent Viona and her volunteer counsellor on their way to Compostela.
Filmmaker and volunteer went on a search to find Viona to show her the shortfilm.
Viona and counsellor reached Santiago which was a success seeing the heavy fights they had en route.
Viona got scared in SdC that even with the good pilgrimage she was to be put back in juvenile detention so she went underground in Spain for a couple of months ( living rough ) until she became 18 and could get a legal and proper job in Spain.
Quite a fighter. At 18 she was also legally an adult. She actually stayed four years in Spain before heading back to Belgium.

Even if you cannot understand the language, the scenes and expressions do speak for themselves.

https://www.canvas.be/video/4-x-7/najaar-2016/aflevering-7