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COVID COVID-19: Corona virus discussion (ROUND 7)

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Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I recommend this recent forum post, last paragraph as well as the Forbes article mentioned in that forum post and messages on Flyerstalk.com where a few people report about recent experience in this regard.
Quite correct again. An American who is resident in another country should have this as their address on the passport.
 

CWBuff

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
in Planning stage: Frances (SJPdP --> SdC) & Finisterre "2021" ... (GOD WILLING!)
Quite correct. The airline knows that you have departed from a country that cannot enter a country that does not allow entry. I am focussing on that and the financial penalties. You might be an American (to take this as an example) but resident in a country which allows such travel.
So.... how do I "move in" with my cousin in Ukraine while still having my US Passport? ;)

I just sincerely hope (and I am sure I am not the only one) that somehow it will all go away sooner than later 🙏
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I have a son who lives with me with his American girlfriend and has done for a few years...I'll ask him what the situation would be when/if she traveled abroad. She has moved on from a visitors Visa to a right to stay...not a residency or naturalisation...(as far as I know)
 
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C clearly

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016), VDLP (2017), Mozarabe (2018), Vasco/Bayona (2019)
how do I "move in" with my cousin in Ukraine while still having my US Passport?
You apply to the Ukraine government to immigrate. You do not relinquish your passport/citizenship by moving to another country.
 

CWBuff

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
in Planning stage: Frances (SJPdP --> SdC) & Finisterre "2021" ... (GOD WILLING!)
You apply to the Ukraine government to immigrate. You do not relinquish your passport/citizenship by moving to another country.
Hmmmm.... not happening since it took me forever to get out of there to begin with 😊

Although...Ukraine has a 60-day no visa requirements. So... I just go there say 3 weeks prior to starting my Camino and can always make a case that my papers didn't came through with my new address :rolleyes:

nice to 'dream' even if tongue-in-cheek
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Hmmmm.... not happening since it took me forever to get out of there to begin with 😊

Although...Ukraine has a 60-day no visa requirements. So... I just go there say 3 weeks prior to starting my Camino and can always make a case that my papers didn't came through with my new address :rolleyes:

nice to 'dream' even if tongue-in-cheek
I know it was tongue in cheek.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Although...Ukraine has a 60-day no visa requirements. So... I just go there say 3 weeks prior to starting my Camino and can always make a case that my papers didn't came through with my new address :rolleyes:
Erm ... I don't have the heart to tell you why that plan won't work, papers with new address or no papers with new address ... 🤭;)
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Erm ... I don't have the heart to tell you why that plan won't work, papers with new address or no papers with new address ... 🤭;)
No plan will work.. nor should it. While this pandemic exists I would not be getting on any aeroplane nor going to another country where I could be part of the problem...or at least making it worse.
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
nice to 'dream' even if tongue-in-cheek
I have daydreams, Buffy, and mine are not "tongue in cheek".
🎼"We gotta get out of this place
If it's the last thing we ever do...
The Camino is a wait'n for you."🎼 (The Animals)
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
No plan will work.. nor should it. While this pandemic exists I would not be getting on any aeroplane nor going to another country where I could be part of the problem...or at least making it worse.
My daydreams are mostly just 🎼"Dust in the wind"🎼 unfortunately for the unforseen future.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Ukraine is one of the many countries that are not on the EU safe list. I found an article again that I had read recently. It describes the confusion at JFK airport in New York in recent weeks and quotes people who were denied boarding on flights to Rome in Italy although they had arrived at the airport with a ticket and in the belief that they were entitled to travel to Italy (thanks to second passport, residency, property, family, marriage or similar). Quote from one traveler:

"What I endured was extremely stressful, and most of it was unnecessary. The information online is discouraging and confusing for travelers."
Sara said Alitalia representatives at the airport told her that "basically all the information from the embassy and consular websites was incorrect, and that they take their directives from immigration in Rome."
"They also said that there was no way to know any of this information before coming to the airport."

OK, that's not funny for the travelers concerned and yet ... ☺
 
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Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
I have a forum friend who had a similar experience with a ticket to Spain from America and the flight was never cancelled, leaving on July 15th. After filling out many required forms was still denied being able to board and go. Of course at this time American citizens are not on the EU safe list, and it was known...but sometimes hope has no bounds.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
Denmark and Ireland are not bound or subject to the Recommendation which is not unusual in EU external border context.

??? Both countries are Member States of the European Union, so that they are not outside of the EU external borders.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I don't understand this.if a country is deeming you not safe to travel there...why would you want to go? It's like someone not inviting you in your house but you are going to go in anyway.
If you know you are not welcome at this present time...accept it! There is a reason!
Why have all this happen again?
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18.
I don't understand this.if a country is deeming you not safe to travel there...why would you want to go? It's like someone not inviting you in your house but you are going to go in anyway.
If you know you are not welcome at this present time...accept it! There is a reason!
Why have all this happen again?
Hi,
I may not have understood your post. What are your solutions?
One thing is a ban. And it is an objective element. Another is the responsibility to take an action, which is lawful but may contain risks. And this is a subjective element.
There are those who move to make the journey, to be a tourist, but there are also those who move for work (not just a person, masses of people), for family or institutional needs.
There are those who find themselves in certain situations against their will, but as a consequence of the actions of others.
Could this have stopped? Yes, we have stopped (EU) and some are still standing still. Can it go on forever? No, I'm sorry.
You have repeatedly expressed your subjective thought that the best solution is to stay at home. Someone else, always subjectively, is convinced that she/he can leave the home, while taking all the necessary measures not to contract the virus.
In my opinion they are on the same level.

The case is not that you have to let someone you don't like (but you can't say no to), the fact is that you have to be a good host, a good administrator, and put the guest at ease. In other words, the new start of free movement must be supported by clear preventive, safety and health monitoring actions ....
and what I wonder is how those who guide us can't think about it !!
What's underneath?
Yes, there is a lot ... but in the end I don't understand anything! I do what I can. Following sanitary measures and social distancing. I go out only for work and for essential needs.
Many discussions here (but also in other web portals) help the uncertain, those who had planned to make the journey this year. And planning something is not always easy for everyone, for those who work, for those with responsibilities in the family. For those who live kilometers and kilometers from Spain (or any place of pilgrimage).
it is sacrosanct to give notices and information putting health first, even categorically.
But my belief is that whoever was a little "light" before is also now in this world health emergency.
I hope that normalcy will return (at least that is how we could call it) that was before the virus appeared and that indeed, as humanity we manage to be more aware and attentive to any new "rebus".
A greeting.

ps: I would like to know where come from the pilgrims who withdrew the compostela in these days of July,
if they have traveled the entire path or only the route necessary to be entitled to it.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I would like to know where come from the pilgrims who withdrew the compostela in these days of July,
if they have traveled the entire path or only the route necessary to be entitled to it.
A bit more will be known about this at the end of the month when the Pilgrims Office publishes their statistics. Very few people actually report from Spain and/or from their camino walking on the forum right now. I know at least one forum member who decided not to report here but did so in a FB group, and a reason given by him are the frequent and uncalled for critical comments directed at him and others who walk at the moment.

My impression from the FB groups I follow or check occasionally is that it is mainly people who live in Spain; often people who have walked many times; the usual mix, with starting somewhere, skipping parts, walking until Santiago or ending earlier. Daily arrivals registered in Santiago are a few hundred, daily numbers registered in SJPP are below one hundred (and I think that is arrivals and departures taken together).
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I have a forum friend who had a similar experience with a ticket to Spain from America and the flight was never cancelled, leaving on July 15th. After filling out many required forms was still denied being able to board and go.
Should I try a guess 🤔🤭🤫? No, I won't, it is a rhetorical question only.

But I will make this guess: that the Spanish authorities did not regard volunteer work as equivalent to the essential work of high-level specialists who are in principle entitled to enter Spain on flights from any country.

In any case, I sympathise. 🥰
 
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cathietherese

Catherine Davis
Camino(s) past & future
SJPDP - Finistere May/June 2012
Le-Puy-en-Velay to Cahors/ June 2019
I am supposed to be starting in Lisbon in two weeks but obviously that won't happen. I will do that next June. If I am very lucky I will try for the Madrid Camino on the 1st of September. If Spain allows travelers from New Zealand by then, I will be a definite starter.
Good on you. I too am from New Zealand and hope to be there next northern summer. Ultreia!
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Hi,
I may not have understood your post. What are your solutions?
One thing is a ban. And it is an objective element. Another is the responsibility to take an action, which is lawful but may contain risks. And this is a subjective element.
There are those who move to make the journey, to be a tourist, but there are also those who move for work (not just a person, masses of people), for family or institutional needs.
There are those who find themselves in certain situations against their will, but as a consequence of the actions of others.
Could this have stopped? Yes, we have stopped (EU) and some are still standing still. Can it go on forever? No, I'm sorry.
You have repeatedly expressed your subjective thought that the best solution is to stay at home. Someone else, always subjectively, is convinced that she/he can leave the home, while taking all the necessary measures not to contract the virus.
In my opinion they are on the same level.

The case is not that you have to let someone you don't like (but you can't say no to), the fact is that you have to be a good host, a good administrator, and put the guest at ease. In other words, the new start of free movement must be supported by clear preventive, safety and health monitoring actions ....
and what I wonder is how those who guide us can't think about it !!
What's underneath?
Yes, there is a lot ... but in the end I don't understand anything! I do what I can. Following sanitary measures and social distancing. I go out only for work and for essential needs.
Many discussions here (but also in other web portals) help the uncertain, those who had planned to make the journey this year. And planning something is not always easy for everyone, for those who work, for those with responsibilities in the family. For those who live kilometers and kilometers from Spain (or any place of pilgrimage).
it is sacrosanct to give notices and information putting health first, even categorically.
But my belief is that whoever was a little "light" before is also now in this world health emergency.
I hope that normalcy will return (at least that is how we could call it) that was before the virus appeared and that indeed, as humanity we manage to be more aware and attentive to any new "rebus".
A greeting.

ps: I would like to know where come from the pilgrims who withdrew the compostela in these days of July,
if they have traveled the entire path or only the route necessary to be entitled to it.
Hi Jomas,
Yes...I hope I am consistent in my views...well as consistent as I can be.
I am not suggesting a ban...Countries are already doing this if they think the risk is too high.
The problems that are faced started by one viral infection and then spread through human contact and spread by human movement and travel.
It has now been limited (not eradicated) by massive restrictions on our daily lives. Sacrifices we have all made.
I yearn for the day, like everyone else I guess, when I can return to something resembling a normal existence. But whilst this pandemic exists then I will be doing my best to ensure this happens. I consider myself as part of the problem and part of the solution.
Whilst actions I can take will have far reaching affects somewhere else then I will try to mitigate them. Getting on an aeroplane and travelling around another country are not part of my plan. I consider these risks far too high.
There has been mention, but not much, that this might be a seasonal problem.
There isn't a silver bullet nor a cloak of invincibility at the moment.
The image posted on this thread was disappointing. Most of the perceived wisdom was missing. I see these images daily. Sometimes a wilful disregard and others ommisions through mistake and force of habit.
I would reiterate that because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18.
My impression from the FB groups I follow or check occasionally is that it is mainly people who live in Spain; often people who have walked many times; the usual mix, with starting somewhere, skipping parts, walking until Santiago or ending earlier. Daily arrivals registered in Santiago are a few hundred, daily numbers registered in SJPP are below one hundred (and I think that is arrivals and departures taken together).


I agree, I suppose they are largely Spanish pilgrims. thanks for your reply and updates :)
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
The image posted on this thread was disappointing
Do you mean the photo of the queue of pilgrims in the Rúa Carretas? Someone who actually lives in Santiago, in contrast to us who mostly live a good thousand miles away or even more, commented on it and said that according to what she sees on the streets of Santiago pilgrims are behaving very responsibly.

I remember a recent case where a photo of a supposedly packed beach was published by numerous media outlets. Then people who were actually there posted their own photos and the beach looked a lot less packed. These photographic perspectives can be very misleading.

So I actually went into Google Earth and worked out the distances for this photo of pilgrims waiting in line in SdC: about 20 pilgrims are spread out along four houses and over a distance of 28 m - you do the maths! Some are obviously families or couples who walked together. Some are obviously biking groups who biked together. Most are wearing masks. One dad holds his mask in his hands while speaking to one of his kids.

Maybe we see the world just differently, especially from far away ...
 
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Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Do you mean the photo of the queue of pilgrims in the Rúa Carretas? Someone who actually lives in Santiago, in contract to us who mostly live a good thousand miles away or even more, commented on it and said that according to what she sees on the streets of Santiago pilgrims are behaving very responsibly.

I remember a recent case where a photo of a supposedly packed beach was published by numerous media outlets. Then people who were actually there posted their own photos and the beach looked a lot less packed. These photographic perspectives can be misleading.

So I actually went into Google Earth and worked out the distances for this photo of pilgrims waiting in line in SdC: about 20 pilgrims are spread out along four houses and over a distance of 28 m - you do the maths. Some are obviously families. Some are obviously biking groups. Most are wearing masks. One dad holds his mask in his hands while speaking to one of the kids.

Maybe we see the world just differently, especially from far away ...
Well I didnt see a lot of social distancing. About 50% take up on masks (which restrict transmission by the wearer).
These are a few of the mechanisms needed.
I've seen more signage and adherence in our local shop. I wouldn't know of their nationality nor familial bond I would say the adherence to the new normal was lax.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
about 20 pilgrims are spread out along four houses and over a distance of 28 m - you do the maths!
Looks like I have to work it out myself: 28 metres divided by 20 is 1.4 metres. :rolleyes:
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
It annoys me a bit when people are maligned who have done nothing wrong but I promise I will let it go now. I will. I will. And no matter how much we write against it on this forum, they are walking in Spain. In modest numbers but they are walking. 335 pilgrims got their Compostela yesterday. And 504 today. I am happy for them. And I'd love to hear more from them.
 
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Galloglaigh

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Lycra tribe.
CF (2017/8), VF (2018/9), Old Way (2020), VFnS (2020), CP (rebooked) (2021), VdT (ToDo)
It annoys me a bit when people are maligned who have done nothing wrong but I promise I will let it go now. I will. I will. And no matter how much we write against it on this forum, they are walking in Spain. In modest numbers but they are walking. 335 pilgrims got their Compostela yesterday. I am happy for them. And I'd love to hear more from them.

I think we'd all like to be in that queue (again). But it depends on where you are arriving from.

Picking up on Ireland appearing to step outside the EU travel guidance. Perhaps this will add some light to the matter. Seems some of us are now living in a pariah state.

 

Molly Cassidy

Travelling light
Camino(s) past & future
Planning to start the Camino Frances from St Jean at the end of May (2020).
The reasons that airlines are responsible is that it is their, and associated, staff who monitor outbound passengers at the point of departure. From Check in to the gate (not at security where it is the boarding pass not the passport which is shown).
If emigration rules are not adhered to it is the airline who is fined....and quite heavily.
In Greece this week several tourists were fined €500 each for failing to fill in the online form.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
In Greece this week several tourists were fined €500 each for failing to fill in the online form.
Hi Molly,
If those are the Greek regulations so be it.
Greece has a good record on their response to this virus. Well done to them.
This is an individual requirement obviously...
 

Molly Cassidy

Travelling light
Camino(s) past & future
Planning to start the Camino Frances from St Jean at the end of May (2020).
Hi Molly,
If those are the Greek regulations so be it.
Greece has a good record on their response to this virus. Well done to them.
This is an individual requirement obviously...
Of course.
I think many countries now expect travellers to fill in an online form prior to travel. It was really just a warning that you need to check the requirements before you travel.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I would like to know where come from the pilgrims who withdrew the compostela in these days of July, if they have traveled the entire path or only the route necessary to be entitled to it.
The Spanish news service 20.minutos did a recent article about the Camino de Santiago in times of Covid-19: albergues in crisis, few pilgrims and practically all of them Spanish (see original text here or in Google Translation here).
  • this July, there is a diminished "social component" and a lot more tranquility compared to the last few years
  • only about a 10th of the pilgrim traffic, compared to last year and previous years
  • albergues have reduced the number of beds available and, despite this, they are not filling up
  • two younger people from Barcelona on their first camino trip from Leon to Santiago report that they saw about 15 other pilgrims in total during the first few days (I vividly remember the troops marching with me out of Leon !)
  • a few more pilgrims from Sarria onwards but nothing compared to the onslaught in previous years
  • in their experience, locals are pleased to see them: "When they see us, they say: Oh, pilgrims are already arriving! Buen Camino!"
  • the owner of a private albergue talks about the economic difficulties: just when the pilgrimage season was about to start in March 2020, the lockdown came. And now there are "no Americans and no Koreans".
  • According to statistics communicated by the pilgrims office in Santiago, 80% of those getting a Compostela are pilgrims from Spain, and the non-domestic pilgrims come mainly from Portugal, Germany and Italy (similar to previous years). The share of Spanish pilgrims in the total number of pilgrims getting a Compostela in July 2019 was around 50%.
Currently, we are in the run-up to the Saint's feast day on 25 July, with around 300 pilgrims arriving daily at the SdC pilgrims office. The same period last year saw daily arrivals of 1500-2000 pilgrims.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I am just wondering: if there is a sequel to this thread in the form of a Round 8 of COVID-19: Corona virus discussion, would it be useful to put the focus on Covid-19 and the Camino de Santiago? In the beginning, in March and April, we were all preoccupied with this coronavirus and the disease Covid-19 in general because the whole development and sequence of events was new and unusual and so little was known about it all.

Now, however, there is much more known, and everyone can get their information from news sources or official sources and I feel there is a lot less need for an information exchange (and I mean information exchange and not exchanging opinions and personal experience) about what's going on in connection with this in the various countries where we live. Thoughts?
 
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Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Perhaps a better title should be COVID -- 19 and the effects on the Camino de Santiago.
There has been so much information and statistics concerning the pandemic that I am not surprised that many are suffering "information overload".
Much has been discussed concerning the measures that can be taken to best mitigate the virus. Unless a uniform and consistent approach is taken the answer to when a return to normality can arrive is...no time soon.
An acceptance that we are part of the problem and part of the solution. There are too many weak links to the chain that need to be strengthened that the basics are being missed amongst the maelstrom of information.
I hope that when this is all over, and one day it will, that we will be cleaner and more responsible and that what happens in one part of the world has such devastating consequences elsewhere.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Unless a uniform and consistent approach is taken the answer to when a return to normality can arrive is...no time soon.
That's an answer to a question I am not asking. I simply want to know more about what is currently going on along the Caminos and how everyone is coping with the changed situation there and how it is currently developing there.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
That's an answer to a question I am not asking. I simply want to know more about what is currently going on along the Caminos and how everyone is coping with the changed situation there and how it is currently developing there.
No....but it is worth exploring as part of a discussion. It is my question.
My post was addressing the information by the media. Your posts address the effects on the Camino de Santiago.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
And stubbornly continuing in this vein ... 🤭, I am letting you know that the report, including photos, of the peregrino sin ropa y sin mascarilla who had arrived recently in the Plaza do Obradoiro in Santiago is still making his appearance in the Spanish news - a pilgrim from Granada who wasn't wearing a face mask and had walked from at least Sarria onwards.


Edited to add: If you read this in machine translated English, be aware of the fact that the translation machines often get pronouns mixed up when translating from Spanish into English. It is not the image of the reporter that went viral but the image of the pilgrim.
 
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VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
It takes all kinds.
Sin embargo, este hombre finalmente sí llego al Obradoiro como Dios lo trajo al mundo.
:oops:

And stubbornly continuing in this vein
Thank you. Quite appropriately, since that's what we are here to find out: the general stuff about Covid-19 we can read elsewhere. The fine details of what the thread is called are really not so important so long as the title communicates that the focus here is the effects of the pandemic on the camino, either directly or due to travel disruptions.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
It takes all kinds.
What surprises me is how calmly and matter of factly this is reported in the Spanish media. I mean ... Spain! It sometimes still surprises me how the country has changed in the past 30+ years - yikes, is it that long ago since my first trip to Spain? - and has become a modern society (for lack of a better word).

There's even a short videoclip, appropriately edited of course and broadcast by the Galician TV, that shows the pilgrim's apparently friendly encounter with two officers from the Policia. ☺

peregrino sin ropa y sin mascarilla
And if you look closely, and who wouldn't, this pilgrim is walking without shoes, too. ☺
 
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Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
I agree, VN, but this thread title has been around for a very long time and quite generic. I see that @Kathar1na and @Bristle boy are suggesting a new thread name which would be more appropriate to our concerns as they relate to those currently walking the Caminos. Those of us now sidelined have a keen interest in what is happening along the way to Santiago.
 
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Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I agree, VN, but this thread title has been around for a very long time and quite generic. @Bristle boy is proposing a new thread name which would be more appropriate to our concerns as they relate to those currently walking the Caminos. Those of us now sidelined have a keen interest in what is happening along the way to Santiago.
I was attempting to broaden the discussion.
It was not an answer to any particular question... or necessarily a reply to anyone in particular. I would guess that anyones opinion is valid and if someone adopts a different opinion to your own then this is challenging...not maligning.
Secondly, there is no need to answer a question if, after posing one, they then proceed to answer it themselves. :rolleyes:
 
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martin1ws

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Somport to Finisterre Jul-Aug 2018; Munich to Lindau (Germany) Sep 2020
Yesterday there were 2615 new cases in Spain. Almost double from the day before.
I hope very much that this was the exception and not a new trend:
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Yesterday there were 2615 new cases in Spain. Almost double from the day before.
I hope very much that this was the exception and not a new trend:
I am afraid this is inevitable.
This has not gone away. A lot of people visiting Spain at the moment have to go home in the next few weeks.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
In German news media, you can currently read about a family of four who had come back from a recent trip to the popular Spanish island of Mallorca which is currently not classified as a high risk area by German authorities so there were no Covid-19 related controls at the arrival airport in Germany. They landed at their airport, then drove home by car (some 400 km distance). However, the employer of one of the family insisted on a Covid-19 test and so it turned out that all four family members are infected.

It is unknown whether they got infected in Mallorca or in the plane or on the way home ... and as far as I can make out, contact tracing does not go further back than who was on the plane and sitting in their vicinity ... [edited:] news say that contact tracing includes passengers who were seated close to the family members as well as flight crew and even reaches as far back as potential contacts in Spain. The family are in isolation and show no symptoms of the disease.

And I am not even sure why I am sharing this here ... 🤔🤭. Perhaps because there are so few actual Camino news ...
 
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Travellingman

Active Member
I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so if this has been covered before I apologise.
My question: I'm booked to fly to Biarritz end of August, then Alsa bus from Biarritz airport to Pamplona. Then start walking for 8 days.UK nationals flying to Spain have to fill in entry form with contact details, flight number etc. What is the situation regarding arriving in Spain by land from France? (At present France does not require similar entry details) I guess same will apply to anyone travelling Bayonne - St Jean. Alsa state that "temperature checks may be carried out on travellers".
I'll fill in the airport form anyway, as this may suffice.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I'm booked to fly to Biarritz end of August, then Alsa bus from Biarritz airport to Pamplona. Then start walking for 8 days.UK nationals flying to Spain have to fill in entry form with contact details, flight number etc. What is the situation regarding arriving in Spain by land from France?
This is a general purpose thread and your question may not be seen by anyone who has travelled recently and actually knows this. You may want to start a new thread with an appropriate title.

From what I can make out, living a good thousand miles away from Biarritz airport: you don't have to fill in the Spanish form, in fact it is not possible to fill it in because you have to indicate your flight number etc and it is really only for passengers arriving IN Spain on a flight or ship. The purpose is to trace you IF it turns out that there has been an infected person on the plane but not to be able to track you permanently during your stay in Spain. And you don't have to fill in anything when you cross the French-Spanish land border, no matter your means of transport including feet ☺. Alsa may keep your name and mobile phone number for a while - I can't remember what you have to indicate when you book a ticket, but that's all. Buen voyage in any case and please follow all measures to protect others.

I didn't know that there is an ALSA bus from Biarritz to Pamplona! Is that new?
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
In German news media, you can currently read about a family of four who had come back from a recent trip to the popular Spanish island of Mallorca which is currently not classified as a high risk area by German authorities so there were no Covid-19 related controls at the arrival airport in Germany. They landed at their airport, then drove home by car (some 400 km distance). However, the employer of one of the family insisted on a Covid-19 test and so it turned out that all four family members are infected.

It is unknown whether they got infected in Mallorca or in the plane or on the way home ... and as far as I can make out, contact tracing does not go further back than who was on the plane and sitting in their vicinity ... [edited:] news say that contact tracing includes passengers who were seated close to the family members as well as flight crew and even reaches as far back as potential contacts in Spain. The family are in isolation and show no symptoms of the disease.

And I am not even sure why I am sharing this here ... 🤔🤭. Perhaps because there are so few actual Camino news ...
.....because it is very relevant to the absence of people's ability to participate in a camino.
My mind, like my legs, has a tendency to wander sometimes and I try to join the dots.
I just feel that travelling to other countries, at the present time, does nothing to improve a situation that has been so hard fought and so many sacrifices made. One countries problems just become anothers.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I can't remember what you have to indicate when you book a ticket
I had a look ;): name, passport number, email and mobile phone number are fields that must be filled in when you buy an ALSA ticket online, and this note is definitely new:

Estos datos se utilizan para informarte de cualquier novedad en el servicio, enviarte el mail recordatorio y cumplir las medidas legales de trazabilidad de control de epidemias.
[These data will be used to inform you of news about our service, send you a confirmation email and comply with legal dispositions for the control of epidemics]
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I don't think I've seen this mentioned yet: Alsa has a webpage about their Covid-19 protocol for drivers, passengers and maintenance, available in Spanish and other languages: https://www.alsa.com/en/web/bus/safe-mobility

Not surprisingly, the use of a mobile phone for purchasing and keeping your ticket on you is highly recommended. Use the toilet on the bus "only if strictly necessary" and "We recommend not using the toilet".
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
🤣🤣🤣 I have yet to use a toilet unnecessarily.
Yes, this may cause great hilarity but it's actually something useful to know beforehand.

I've encountered this in my daily Covid-19 life around here where I live too: commercial enterprises who now prefer - and even advise - their customers or clients to go to the loo at home or elsewhere but not at their premises.

In any case, I vaguely remember that some ALSA busses stop on long distance journeys to give people the option to get off the bus in larger stations for 10 minutes or so. Where it is easier for staff to fulfil the Covid-19 related obligation in Spain to clean and disinfect these premises at least 6 times per day. I think this became law in Spain at the beginning of May, so nothing surprisingly new.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Yesterday there were 2615 new cases in Spain. Almost double from the day before.
Not that the actual number matters much - there IS an increase of detected cases in Spain at the moment - but this number of 2615 "new cases" used by Worldometer is not the number of new active cases that had been detected on a given day. The number of active new cases (= currently infected persons) was lower, namely 730 resp 971 resp 529 during the last few days. You can see this easily when you click on "source" on the Worldometer site and then look at the figures published by the Spanish health authority, for example:


The figure of 2615 refers to the number of newly detected cases of people who are either currently infected OR have antibodies. Worldometer gets their numbers by deducting the figure of "casos totales" in the Spanish table for a given day from the figure of the following day.

At least that's the only way I can make sense of all this.
 
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Travellingman

Active Member
Thanks for your replies - yes, I have booked Alsa ticket on-line, and no, I hadn't realised they operated that service until recently. A lot better than flying to Madrid then bus to Pamplona, if you're starting there. And yes, I have ticket on mobile phone, as requested by Alsa. (actually bus Biarritz - San Sebastian, change there for Pamplona leg.) The form for Spain arrivals can all be done on-line, so I'll do that anyway, just in case.
Of course, still problematic whether the trip will go ahead, with the latest spikes in Catalonia/Aragon and Leon/Castile. :)
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
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Testing has been made mandatory in France for all of those arriving into the country from : United States, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Panama, South Africa, Kuwait, Qatar, Israel, Brasil, Peru, Serbia, Algeria, Turkey, Madagascar, India and Oman.

The French are being asked to not go to Catalonia.
 

JabbaPapa

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Those traveling into the UK from Spain will once again be required to stay in quarantine for 14 days. 😷

UK Foreign Office :

"From July 26, the FCO advises against all non-essential travel to mainland Spain based on the current assessment of COVID-19 risks.

"Only the Canary Islands (Tenerife, Fuerteventura, Gran Canaria, Lanzarote, La Palma, La Gomera, El Hierro and La Graciosa) and Balearic Islands (Mallorca, Menorca, Ibiza, and Formentera) are exempt from the FCO advice against all non-essential international travel.

"This advice is based on evidence of increases in cases of COVID-19 in several regions, but particularly in Aragon, Navarra and Catalonia (which include the cities of Zaragoza, Pamplona and Barcelona).

...

"The FCO is not advising those already travelling in Spain to leave at this time. Travellers should follow the advice of the local authorities on how best to protect themselves and others, including any measures that they bring in to control the virus. If you are returning from mainland Spain after July 25 you will be required to quarantine on your return to the UK, but the FCO is not advising you to cut short your visit. You should contact your tour operator or airline if you have any questions about your return journey."
 
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JabbaPapa

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Catalonia is contemplating stricter lockdown measures if the current increase in cases doesn't slow down.
 

JabbaPapa

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The quarantine in the UK for travelers from Spain has been reduced from 14 days to 10.

The UK is considering letting people to take a test after 8 days, and if negative to be able to leave quarantine at that point.

But the UK has also warned that the situation is constantly under review, and that further EU countries could be added to the quarantine list.
 

Galloglaigh

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Lycra tribe.
CF (2017/8), VF (2018/9), Old Way (2020), VFnS (2020), CP (rebooked) (2021), VdT (ToDo)
that further EU countries could be added to the quarantine list.

Was it specific to EU countries? Not other ones? Seems an odd statement.
 

JabbaPapa

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Was it specific to EU countries? Not other ones? Seems an odd statement.

It's my comment, not the Government's -- on the basis of news reports.

Generally, the countries currently exempted from quarantine upon entering the UK are the EU countries.

And it's the situation in Europe that's being looked at most carefully, as most UK citizens traveling abroad in summer are off on holiday in Europe.
 

Don Camillo

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The UK Govt travel advice website which was dated today clearly states that a ****14**** day quarantine period still applies to UK returnees from Spain and all the Spanish islands. This is also the information being put out on the BBC News website.
It has also advised against all but essential travel to Spain and the islands which means we are back in the situation of no travel insurance if you decide to travel. Easyjet and Ryanair are still flying to Spain when I last checked.
I have no idea why any advice refers to E U countries but my understanding was they (H M Govt) would monitor all countries and not hesitate to impose travel restrictions if Covid rates went up which translates as "you pay's your money and take's your chance's" if you decide to travel out of UK.
Personal decision but I will not be getting back in a plane for some time and certainly not putting others at risk by doing so.
Don
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
The UK Govt travel advice website which was dated today clearly states that a ****14**** day quarantine period still applies to UK returnees from Spain and all the Spanish islands. This is also the information being put out on the BBC News website.
It has also advised against all but essential travel to Spain and the islands which means we are back in the situation of no travel insurance if you decide to travel. Easyjet and Ryanair are still flying to Spain when I last checked.
I have no idea why any advice refers to E U countries but my understanding was they (H M Govt) would monitor all countries and not hesitate to impose travel restrictions if Covid rates went up which translates as "you pay's your money and take's your chance's" if you decide to travel out of UK.
Personal decision but I will not be getting back in a plane for some time and certainly not putting others at risk by doing so.
Don
Thank you for your last paragraph.
 

JabbaPapa

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Ah well -- Roughly speaking, Galicia https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-07...de-cinco-comunidades-y-mas-de-130-paises.html ... is closing its borders to any travelers who have in the previous 14 days been in Aragón, Catalonia, Navarra, Basque Region, or La Rioja -- plus 130 countries, including Portugal.

From midnight tonight, so serious bad news for those on the Portuguese Ways ...

Official statement here : https://www.xunta.gal/dog/Publicados/2020/20200728/AnuncioC3K1-270720-1_gl.html

It seems to be a complex document, but roughly when entering Galicia you need to declare yourself to the Authorities, and if you have ANY symptom that might be Covid19, you will be required to place yourself in quarantine. Even if it's just a temperature from slight heat stroke or etc.

People already in Galicia are not exempted from this, so if you've been in say Portugal in the past 14 days, you need to call 881 00 20 21 and follow instructions.

Seriously bad news ... 🤒

Furthermore, indoor gatherings are now limited to 25 people max.
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
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This puts one more new reason to avoid walking caminos at this time...it's just too early to plan. The recent reports of those walking the Portuguese route have been promising, but looks like they will get "hung up" if they near Spain's Galicia border crossing the river Minho anytime soon.
 

JabbaPapa

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Catalonia has lifted the strictest parts of the lockdown, whereas restrictions persist upon in-door gatherings.

But hiking on the Camì Catalan is possible again, at least in Catalonia.
 

Galloglaigh

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Lycra tribe.
CF (2017/8), VF (2018/9), Old Way (2020), VFnS (2020), CP (rebooked) (2021), VdT (ToDo)
From midnight tonight, so serious bad news for those on the Portuguese Ways ...

Official statement here : https://www.xunta.gal/dog/Publicados/2020/20200728/AnuncioC3K1-270720-1_gl.html

It seems to be a complex document, but roughly when entering Galicia you need to declare yourself to the Authorities, and if you have ANY symptom that might be Covid19, you will be required to place yourself in quarantine. Even if it's just a temperature from slight heat stroke or etc.

I did have accomodation booked for the CP for September but yesterday was able to move it to 2021. Seems they must have known as everyone was very accomodating (pun).

But before I could get round to changing the flights [Easyjet] the airline have cancelled them 6 weeks out. So even if you could get into Portugal, you'd have difficulty getting out of Spain. There may even have been the an issue with crossing the border from Portugal too if this trend continues.
 

C clearly

Moderator
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JabbaPapa

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Kathar1na

Member
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To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Yesterday, the EU Council reviewed, for the second time since the beginning of July, the list of countries whose residents should be allowed by the EU+ countries to travel to the EU and Schengen area. It's no longer front page news. ☺

There were no surprises, the USA and South Africa are still out, Australia, Canada and New Zealand are still on the list, together with Japan and South Korea, plus six other countries, none of them with a recent history of a significant numbers of Camino pilgrims.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
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To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I've been wondering why, of all places in the world, Rwanda is on the EU list of safe countries. Rwanda is a country in the middle of Africa with a population of 12 million people. Here's an article that sheds some light on it. It emphasises the role of testing with fast results, comprehensive contact detecting and tracing, pre-emptive isolation and quarantine of possibly infected persons, a smart and economic use of already available infrastructure and all the other measures that are at the disposal of individuals and government to contain this virus.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I've been wondering why, of all places in the world, Rwanda is on the EU list of safe countries. Rwanda is a country in the middle of Africa with a population of 12 million people. Here's an article that sheds some light on it. It emphasises the role of testing with fast results, comprehensive contact detecting and tracing, pre-emptive isolation and quarantine of possibly infected persons, a smart and economic use of already available infrastructure and all the other measures that are at the disposal of individuals and government to contain this virus.
I think thereby lies the crux of the matter.
Governments can put together the mechanisms to limit the spread...its up to the individuals to adhere to it.
 

Kathar1na

Member
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To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I hope it's "real"news! 🤞
I get the impression that every other day there is an exciting PR release from somewhere around the world that a highly promising product is entering yet another exciting phase of vaccine testing. News sites have vaccine trackers now, the graphs describing the course of the pandemic are relegated to less prominent spaces. I see that both the Guardian and the New York Times have vaccine trackers - there are currently about 160 products in development. Anyone knows where the most well researched and most up to date vaccine tracker site is?
 

Kathar1na

Member
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To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I think thereby lies the crux of the matter. Governments can put together the mechanisms to limit the spread...its up to the individuals to adhere to it.
I don't think that it's the crux of the matter because it doesn't explain why some countries and their people and their governments are more successful at containing the spread of the virus than others. So it may be actually useful to look beyond one's border and be curious to see "what they have and what they are doing that we don't have and we don't do". This is not a subject of actual discussion on this forum because it is against the forum rules and will inevitably lead to controversy but it should not stop us from pointing out the odd bit of interesting news or other. Which is what I was attempting to do.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I don't think that it's the crux of the matter because it doesn't explain why some countries and their people and their governments are more successful at containing the spread of the virus than others. So it may be actually useful to look beyond one's border and be curious to see "what they have and what they are doing that we don't do". This is not a subject of discussion on this forum because it is against the forum rules and will inevitably lead to controversy but it should not stop us from pointing out the odd bit of interesting news or other. Which is what I was attempting to do.
I think you may have misread. A simple message globally. You can put together every possible measure but if, as an individual, you do not follow them then the result is inevitable.
I haven't taken issue on anything you've said....your reply doesn't surprise me.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Meanwhile, in other news (I'am a Stephen Colbert fan ☺), Biarritz and Bayonne turned up in international news today, two cities that many of us who started in SJPP or passed through there on the way to Santiago will be familiar with. The mayors of both cities have issued an order that face masks will be obligatory in public spaces as of Monday. Other towns in this league are La Rochelle, Lille, and surprisingly the tiny town of le Mont-Saint-Michel, a very famous pilgrimage site in the north of France. We are currently also experiencing a short heat wave in parts of Europe, and my favourite local newspaper Le SudOuest has advice on how to cope with it all: Coronavirus : comment supporter son masque en cas de forte chaleur ? It takes only 3 minutes to read it, there may even be a useful tip in it, who knows ... enjoy ☺.

Also, from Tuesday 4 August 2020 onwards, the beaches of Biarritz will be closed from 10 pm at night until 6 am in the morning.

Google translation into English is here.
 
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Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Aragones-Frances (2016); VdlP-Sanabres (2017); Madrid-Frances-Invierno (2019)Levante
For some reflections on how vulnerable developing countries were managing COVD-19 in the early days,
this link is a link to a webcast from Mcgill Universtiy with some interesting information about the response to the pandemic in Rwanda.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18.
Anyone knows where the most well researched and most up to date vaccine tracker site is?
this is a document downloaded from the World Health Organization website which lists, as of today, the development situation of a vaccine trial, after preclinical tests (on animals).
The phases from n. 1 to n. 3 are those tested on humans.
But then the news bounces from every corner of the world ....
American biotech "Moderna" would appear to be the first company in the world to have started the last phase (n. 3) of experimentation.
Then phase 4 (post-authorization studies) should arrive, which are carried out after marketing and have the aim of verifying the efficacy and safety of the vaccine in its real conditions of use, of evaluating its use in particular subgroups of populations and pathological conditions and the cost-benefit ratio compared to the disease and / or other vaccines.
 

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Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
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@Jomas, thanks for adding the the recap of your download as my eyes are unable to read that small print on my phone.🙂
 

JabbaPapa

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I know that recent reports that the lowering of the mean age of serious cases of Covid19 sound quite alarming -- but there is some fairly good analysis of this that it actually constitutes evidence that herd immunity is becoming a reality.

Herd immunity comes into being when the most vulnerable stop being the most affected, from being protected by the "herd" ; and when the disease becomes so widespread that serious cases start shifting away from the more vulnerable and towards the more resistant to it. (the negative aspect of herd immunity is that it commences once those most vulnerable have already suffered from their sufferings and deaths :( )

That's just analysis, and does NOT constitute any kind of "advice" to anybody at all from any personal POV -- even in the abstract sense, a possible shift towards the "herd immunity" is NOT any sort of fragilistic herd immunity that will magically protect you personally.

Health is always individual and particular ; your personal health and that of your loved ones and friends is NOT provided by abstract statistics, but by your own care and efforts and precautions.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I know that recent reports that the lowering of the mean age of serious cases of Covid19 sound quite alarming -- but there is some fairly good analysis of this that it actually constitutes evidence that herd immunity is becoming a reality.

Herd immunity comes into being when the most vulnerable stop being the most affected, from being protected by the "herd" ; and when the disease becomes so widespread that serious cases start shifting away from the more vulnerable and towards the more resistant to it. (the negative aspect of herd immunity is that it commences once those most vulnerable have already suffered from their sufferings and deaths :( )

That's just analysis, and does NOT constitute any kind of "advice" to anybody at all from any personal POV -- even in the abstract sense, a possible shift towards the "herd immunity" is NOT any sort of fragilistic herd immunity that will magically protect you personally.

Health is always individual and particular ; your personal health and that of your loved ones and friends is NOT provided by abstract statistics, but by your own care and efforts and precautions.
There is evidence of herd immunity here...just not enough.
There has been alarming footage recently of a pub garden of what can loosely be described as a party. About 50 people...not a sign of social distancing...not a sign of a mask. The result is 10 have been tested positive (10 out of about 50!!!!!).
This refers to my previous post...if the basics are ignored and not adhered to a second wave is inevitable.
This is merely an example...I am sure this goes on everywhere.
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF : stages 2008, 2017, 2018 ; completed.
Herd immunity comes into being when the most vulnerable stop being the most affected, from being protected by the "herd" ; and when the disease becomes so widespread that serious cases start shifting away from the more vulnerable and towards the more resistant to it. (the negative aspect of herd immunity is that it commences once those most vulnerable have already suffered from their sufferings and deaths :( )
I think there is some confusion here. The concept of herd immunity is quite straightforward. Here is a definition:

“a situation in which a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease (through vaccination and/or prior illness) to make its spread from person to person unlikely.”

There is no reference to "the most vulnerable" nor to any shift "away from the most vulnerable". The sine qua non is the sheer number of immune persons in the population whether achieved through an episode of the illness or through vaccination.
We should remember that for much of the initial months of the Covid-19 pandemic, tests were generally only carried out in hospital i.e. on those already quite ill, most of whom were elderly/vulnerable. The younger/less vulnerable were also affected but if not admitted to hospital (or indeed were asymptomatic) they would not have been formally diagnosed. With widespread community testing there is now an impression of more cases in the younger population. It is also worth noting that the true number of Covid-19 cases is probably 10 -15 times the number actually diagnosed.
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
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Frances 2017;
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I'm just going to be honest here...this is all getting too complicated for lit'l 'ol me. I appreciate all the dialogue...pros and cons. I see there are 394 posts on this thread...no wonder I am confused! 😳
Edit...
P.S. I will say I lean towards doing all you personally can to stay safe by taking all the precautions possible based on the knowledge we have gained thus far...
 
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Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I think there is some confusion here. The concept of herd immunity is quite straightforward. Here is a definition:

“a situation in which a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease (through vaccination and/or prior illness) to make its spread from person to person unlikely.”

There is no reference to "the most vulnerable" nor to any shift "away from the most vulnerable". The sine qua non is the sheer number of immune persons in the population whether achieved through an episode of the illness or through vaccination.
We should remember that for much of the initial months of the Covid-19 pandemic, tests were generally only carried out in hospital i.e. on those already quite ill, most of whom were elderly/vulnerable. The younger/less vulnerable were also affected but if not admitted to hospital (or indeed were asymptomatic) they would not have been formally diagnosed. With widespread community testing there is now an impression of more cases in the younger population. It is also worth noting that the true number of Covid-19 cases is probably 10 -15 times the number actually diagnosed.
No confusion from me. There is a number of the population with herd immunity, a proportion with infection, a proportion without and a proportion who couldn't care less. The precise numbers will never be known as the situation is so fluid from day to day and relies on samples and extrapolation.
What is known is that it is still out there.
Tonight came an admission (at a televised briefing) that nearly every avenue had been exhausted....its up to you!
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
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Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
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If one doesn't read the article through, one might miss that it was written in irony to show how ridiculous that mindset can be!
I knew it was ironic, a bit tongue in cheek...ridiculous!
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF : stages 2008, 2017, 2018 ; completed.
No confusion from me. There is a number of the population with herd immunity, a proportion with infection, a proportion without and a proportion who couldn't care less.

Not quite sure what you mean by the phrase "a number of the population with herd immunity".

Herd immunity, by definition, is not a characteristic of an individual. As I stated above, it is the situation when a sufficient proportion of the community is immune...

I do appreciate your final phrase re "could not care less" e.g. young and obviously fit males, with no masks, striding along supermarket aisles while clutching cans of beer, calling loudly to each other. Then there was the middle-aged lady who donned a mask, advanced on what I detected was a long-lost friend and hugged him. When I exited the shop a few minutes later, she was no longer wearing her mask...he never had been which was fair enough as the encounter was outside.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Not quite sure what you mean by the phrase "a number of the population with herd immunity".

Herd immunity, by definition, is not a characteristic of an individual. As I stated above, it is the situation when a sufficient proportion of the community is immune...

I do appreciate your final phrase re "could not care less".e.g. young and obviously fit males, with no masks, striding along supermarket aisles while clutching cans of beer, calling loudly to each other. Then there was the middle-aged lady who donned a mask, advanced on what I detected was a long-lost friend and hugged him. When I exited the shop a few minutes later, she was no longer wearing her mask...he never had been which was fair enough as the encounter was outside.
Well let's call it with antibodies to be more exact.
I take your point that the demographic that hasn't really taken this seriously are the younger generation (of either sex).
The true irony is that the other effect will be economic and this will be felt in the months to come when jobs are lost in greater numbers and the effects of covid were cushioned by the furlough scheme.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
I think there is some confusion here. The concept of herd immunity is quite straightforward. Here is a definition:

“a situation in which a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease (through vaccination and/or prior illness) to make its spread from person to person unlikely.”

There is no reference to "the most vulnerable" nor to any shift "away from the most vulnerable". The sine qua non is the sheer number of immune persons in the population whether achieved through an episode of the illness or through vaccination.

I did not say anything about the latter "defining" herd immunity, I said that the present trend of a downward shift of the average age of people being infected might be evidence (i.e. not "proof" nor "demonstration") of a shift towards that herd immunity. My attempt to explain why and how it might be such evidence clearly should not be interpreted as what herd immunity in itself constitutes.

As to your final point, and more particularly as to the Covid19, it's "whether achieved through an episode of the illness or through vaccination" ... "or through t-cell cross-protection from previous infections by other coronaviruses".

(hmmmmm, maybe these posts should have been in the old "maths and Covid19" thread ?)
 
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