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COVID COVID-19: Corona virus discussion (ROUND 7)

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nycwalking

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Ourense to Santiago (2019), CF: (2014, 2004, 2002, 2001). On to Fisterra, (2002, 4, 14).
Yes we will. All the viruses in the world still exist. Approximately 2000 people die annually from the the Bubonic plague. We will never truly be able to eradicate it we can only minimise and control.
Now, we have come full circle.

Survival requires personal responsibility!
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
So that is my point or my question: without more detailed background information, are not many of the comparative figures that are mentioned in the news and that we are bandying about, next to meaningless without a detailed look at what they actually mean, what their context is, and in what ways they are actually comparable?
The only stat that can tell you about the overall trend is the number of deaths, because it does not vary from greater numbers of tests being made in the general population.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
There’s someplace in the world that has roughly (25) twenty-five percent of both cases and deaths but only represents (4) percent of the world’s population.
And this, for me, is one of the comparative examples that is pointless if one wants to understand what is currently going on, whether that is in the USA or in Spain (or Italy which has totally dropped out of global reporting it seems) or where you live. Below is the chart I saw yesterday in a quality newspaper. Data by John Hopkins, can't be wrong then. First of all, I was stunned by the low recovery rates for North America, how could that be? After looking around a bit, I came to the conclusion that it has to do with the fact that the John Hopkins dashboard does not list recovery data for every US state; there are no relevant data for a number of states, including large states. OK, let's ignore the last column. Then I was puzzled by relationship between the data in the first two columns. It makes no sense, or rather, there is no relationship in reality because of the huge differences in how the data are harvested.

From the beginning I've followed developments between the USA and a number of European countries, namely Spain, Italy, France, Germany, Belgium and the UK, with deaths in relation to the number of people older than 65 as the metric. Both "sides" have roughly the same population (number of inhabitants), with the total USA population slightly "younger" than these EU countries together. Up to now, ie March to August 2020, this metric is nearly identical for both sides, it's not "worse" on either sides of the Atlantic. What is different, is the development over time, for example the huge spikes in these European countries in March and April (with the exception of Germany that didn't have comparable spikes) while in the USA it is more a big bump than a spike ...

Why do I find it important to try to understand this stuff in more detail? It informs our behaviour - how we behave, how we judge the behaviour of others (in far away countries, to boot) and for other reasons that may be too political for discussions on this forum.

Global stats.jpg
 

nycwalking

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Ourense to Santiago (2019), CF: (2014, 2004, 2002, 2001). On to Fisterra, (2002, 4, 14).
And this, for me, is one of the comparative examples that is pointless if one wants to understand what is currently going on, whether that is in the USA or in Spain (or Italy which has totally dropped out of global reporting it seems) or where you live. Below is the chart I saw yesterday in a quality newspaper. Data by John Hopkins, can't be wrong then. First of all, I was stunned by the low recovery rates for North America, how could that be? After looking around a bit, I came to the conclusion that it has to do with the fact that the John Hopkins dashboard does not list recovery data for every US state; there are no relevant data for a number of states, including large states. OK, let's ignore the last column. Then I was puzzled by relationship between the data in the first two columns. It makes no sense, or rather, there is no relationship in reality because of the huge differences in how the data are harvested.

From the beginning I've followed developments between the USA and a number of European countries, namely Spain, Italy, France, Germany, Belgium and the UK, with deaths in relation to the number of people older than 65 as the metric. Both "sides" have roughly the same population (number of inhabitants), with the total USA population slightly "younger" than these EU countries together. Up to now, ie March to August 2020, this metric is nearly identical for both sides, it's not "worse" on either sides of the Atlantic. What is different, is the development over time, for example the huge spikes in these European countries in March and April (with the exception of Germany that didn't have comparable spikes) while in the USA it is more a big bump than a spike ...

Why do I find it important to try to understand this stuff in more detail? It informs our behaviour - how we behave, how we judge the behaviour of others (in far away countries, to boot) and for other reasons that may be too political for discussions on this forum.

View attachment 80556
Exactly!

And, you are right; dive any deeper on thread regarding “The Covid” and trouble will ensue.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
It seems that the Spanish Government are none too optimistic for the coming autumn/winter period and will begin a phased lockdown system on September 18th. Anyone considering any part of any Camino after this date should take note: https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020...-system-closing-borders-with-france-portugal/
I had been waiting for this "news" to hit the forum. Thank you ;). Euroweekly is an online newspaper for the English speaking expats in Spain. On 9 August 2020, their Top News headline read:
Spain Set To LOCKDOWN Friday the 18th September with Three Phase System closing borders with France & Portugal

A few hours later, again on 9 August 2020, they wrote:
Reactions Run Wild Amongst Expats on Spain’s Costa del Sol & Costa Blanca on Social Media Over LOCKDOWN plans. This article is actually worth reading, it describes, among other stuff, the frenzy on Facebook because people just read the title of the article and not much else (surprise, who would do a thing like that 🤔🥳), and points out that the 3-phase lockdown plan is just a plan, as governments are in the habit of making plans (at least most are) and it's not something that WILL happen.

The British SUN picked it up, the Spanish news agency EFE interviewed a Spanish representative of the WHO ... To make a long story short, the initial Euroweekly article didn't mean to say what readers thought it said, or they just got carried away by it all. So don't think the same and don't get carried away yet. 🙃
 
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tigermike

Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF: April/May 2018. CF Aug/Sep 2018. CF May/June 2019.
CF: Aug/Sep 2019
I'm guessing that none of this has been reported/verified in the mainstream Spanish media ?

Seems woefully stupid/arrogant/incompetent/damaging +++ for EuroWeekly to have gone ahead with this story without, at the very least, a triple-source check ?
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
I'm guessing that none of this has been reported/verified in the mainstream Spanish media ?

Seems woefully stupid/arrogant/incompetent/damaging +++ for Europress to have gone ahead with this story without, at the very least, a triple-source check ?
It's Euroweekly, not Europress (I corrected an earlier typo).
 

tigermike

Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF: April/May 2018. CF Aug/Sep 2018. CF May/June 2019.
CF: Aug/Sep 2019
No matter, the same applies whomsoever it is, surely ?
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
I'm guessing that none of this has been reported/verified in the mainstream Spanish media ?
None. One or two Spanish fact checking websites took it up because they received requests from readers. One points out that it would be nonsensical to have a fixed date (18 September, ie. six weeks from now) so far into the future - "he who knows dates doesn't know the virus" - and another one says that a national lockdown would require an official proclamation of a state of alarm in Spain first, ie enough votes in parliament, with all the uncertainties involved, especially for Sanchez' minority coalition government -- btw, in my albeit limited experience, expats aren't very up to date about such stuff in their country of residence. Euroweekly is a free newspaper for the British expat community on the Spanish Costas.

I had a look on FB. One poster ventures the guess that the unidentified "government sources" for the article are "Barry from the Irish bar". 🤣
 

tigermike

Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF: April/May 2018. CF Aug/Sep 2018. CF May/June 2019.
CF: Aug/Sep 2019
I have no doubt that what you say is correct so many thanks for setting the record straight.
My own 'jaded-eye antenna' should have picked up on this sooner - more fool me !
All that does little however to excuse the gross irresponsibility of EuroWeekly's reporting....
And I suppose some form of retraction and/or clarification on their part would be way too much to ask ???
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
I don't know what it's like where others are but here - in the NL, FR, DE euro newsphere - there's definitely a shift in the Covid-19 news coverage. Today I learnt, that, because of Covid-19, a shortage of pickled gherkins/cucumbers in glass bottles is to be feared for this autumn and beyond but also that large towns in Germany, like Dresden and Nürnberg, are starting preparation work for their Christmas market season. Obligatory face masks and entry controls may make Christmas markets less cozy, they say, but the least coziest thing would be no Christmas markets at all.

And 695 pilgrims reached the Oficina del Peregrino in Santiago yesterday where they were duly registered. 700 pilgrims on average per day is not much, compared to August 2019, but a lot more than in the beginning of July 2020 when the lockdown measures/mobility restrictions were lifted in Spain.
 

tigermike

Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF: April/May 2018. CF Aug/Sep 2018. CF May/June 2019.
CF: Aug/Sep 2019
And 695 pilgrims reached the Oficina del Peregrino in Santiago yesterday where they were duly registered. 700 pilgrims on average per day is not much, compared to August 2019, but a lot more than in the beginning of July 2020 when the lockdown measures/mobility restrictions were lifted in Spain.
My sense is that August is a much busier holiday month for the Spanish, as it is for the French and that perhaps a large proportion of that 695 number are only walking the final 100kms or so.
Nothing wrong with that of course, not everyone has the 4+ week opportunity to go 'the full distance'.

FWIW I'm due to start from StJpdP on Saturday - and this time last year I did it in 23 days - so if I kept up that pace would be well finished before EuroWeekly's proposed September 18th 'lockdown'.

Thing is the sands of C-19 are shifting daily - just look at Aukland - so a regional lockdown anywhere along the CF cannot and should not be ruled out.
The prospect of getting 'trapped' in quarantine is a major concern for me at the moment...
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances 2005,2008,2010,2015.camino Portuguese 2007 .primativo2012.camino Norte 2009.sjpdp to finisterre and muxia 2007. Le Puy to jpdp 2006. Via francigena vercelli to Lucca 2014. Lucca to Rome 2016.
Um!

Will we?

There’s someplace in the world that has roughly (25) twenty-five percent of both cases and deaths but only represents (4) percent of the world’s population.
Hi NYC
We may just have to live with it just as we live with the flu virus and there is no guarantee that a long term vaccine will be found. Most likely scenario will be ??a yearly vaccine just like the flu jab ...that's if it mutates. On the other hand it might even burn itself out ......it's all in the lap of the Gods right now.
The good thing is that we are learning more and more about it and the treatments ias time goes by.
 

trecile

Camino Addict
Camino(s) past & future
Francés (2016 & 2017), Norte (2018), Francés-Salvador-Norte (2019), Portuguese (2019)
Most likely scenario will be ??a yearly vaccine just like the flu jab ...that's if it mutates.
Even if it doesn't mutate enough to require a different vaccine every year there's a strong possibility that immunity from a vaccine may not last more than a year, which would necessitate a yearly shot.
 

C clearly

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016), VDLP (2017), Mozarabe (2018), Vasco/Bayona (2019)
A good lesson to take on board was in post number 2 of round 6.
Yes, well that was a somewhat misguided April attempt to control the discussion/analysis! 🤔 It clearly did not work and, in retrospect, I don't mind.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances 2005,2008,2010,2015.camino Portuguese 2007 .primativo2012.camino Norte 2009.sjpdp to finisterre and muxia 2007. Le Puy to jpdp 2006. Via francigena vercelli to Lucca 2014. Lucca to Rome 2016.
Even if it doesn't mutate enough to require a different vaccine every year there's a strong possibility that immunity from a vaccine may not last more than a year, which would necessitate a yearly shot.
Maybe...maybe not...we don't even have a vaccine yet so it's all speculation and right now we don't even know how long antibodies following the infection last...only time will tell re this one
The reason that we get a flu vaccine each year.....is that the virus mutates.
 

KinkyOne

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
I'am not perfect, but I'm always myself!!!
Russians registered first CoViD-19 vaccine (Sputnik V) yesterday but without phase 3 testing. It is believed that two shots will be enough for two years antibodies. We'll see...
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Russians registered first CoViD-19 vaccine (Sputnik V) yesterday but without phase 3 testing. It is believed that two shots will be enough for two years antibodies. We'll see...
Would anyone care to try it?...
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF : stages 2008, 2017, 2018 ; completed.
There have been recent posts stating that "detail" about Covid-19 would be more than welcome...

My apologies if this research has already appeared in this forum in a different form but here is the "official" pre-print ; the first part of the study has already appeared in the Lancet (and has not attracted adverse comment re methodology etc) and there have also been at least two reports covering it in El Pais.


Even the list of authors looks formidable but the paper is reasonably easy to read. My own view is that it is the best attempt yet at establishing just how lethal the virus can be.

The most important feature is that the community infection rate was established by antibody testing of a random sample of the population. They also seem to have excluded deaths in nursing/care homes in arriving at their conclusions ; this section is perhaps a little confusing.

Here is a short quote from the abstract :

"The overall IFR ranged between 1.1% and 1.4% in men and 0.58% to 0.77% in women. The IFR increased sharply after age 50, ranging between 11.6% and 16.4% in men ≥80 years and between 4.6% and 6.5% in women ≥80 years. Our IFR estimates for SARS-CoV-2 are substantially greater than IFR estimators for seasonal influenza, justifying the implementation of special public health measures."

I can already hear those who will say "but what about T-cell immunity?" , "excess deaths due to reduced access to health care " etc etc but, in my view, this study is the best we can expect for the time being.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
A women’s worth. Um!
I don't quite get what you mean. We know next to nothing about the vaccine developed in Moscow let alone about Putin's daughters or which of them had the vaccination. For what it's worth, one of his daughters is apparently a medical doctor/medical researcher in Moscow.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
In addition, numerous news media - but far from all - have pointed out what the recent certification means: The certificate allows the vaccine, developed by the Gamaleya Research Institute of Epidemiology and Microbiology in Moscow, to be given to “a small number of citizens from vulnerable groups,” including medical staff and the elderly, a Ministry of Health spokesperson tells ScienceInsider. But the certificate stipulates that the vaccine cannot be used widely until 1 January 2021, presumably after larger clinical trials have been completed (sciencemag.org of 11 Aug 2020).

In any case, this vaccine is not available to any of us here nor is it available in Spain. And Camino walkers with habitual residence in Russia can probably be counted on the fingers of two hands.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
Thelocal.es has a list of 10 Spanish words and phrases we've learned during the corona crisis. I found the last item on the list interesting because it explains the difference between mascara and mascarilla:

Mascarilla | A small mask that covers the nose, mouth and chin only
It's hard to imagine that the word mascarilla or mask wasn't used much in Spanish until a few months ago, because we're sure you use it all the time now. Instead, the word máscara was used for mask. Mascarilla has only recently been added to the RAE [Real Academia Española] dictionary and specifically means a mask that only covers the face from the forehead to the upper lip. A full face covering, such as one you'd use for fancy dress, would still be considered a mascara.​
Now that I read this again ... covers face from forehead to upper lip??? <sigh>. Read the RAE entry, there is of course more than one definition for mascarilla in this dictionary of the Spanish language.

Edited to strike out wrong/incomplete information in this Local.es article.
 
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Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Thelocal.es has a list of 10 Spanish words and phrases we've learned during the corona crisis. I found the last item on the list interesting because it explains the difference between mascara and mascarilla:

Mascarilla | A small mask that covers the nose, mouth and chin only
It's hard to imagine that the word mascarilla or mask wasn't used much in Spanish until a few months ago, because we're sure you use it all the time now. Instead, the word máscara was used for mask. Mascarilla has only recently been added to the RAE [Real Academia Española] dictionary and specifically means a mask that only covers the face from the forehead to the upper lip. A full face covering, such as one you'd use for fancy dress, would still be considered a mascara.​
Yes... Spanish is fascinating by putting suffixes to words to donate size. Another suffix being the use of Ito/ita (example Chicita/Carlito) to mean small.
 
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Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
I have been told that the word mascara, which is what many of us women use on our eyelashes (when not on Camino), originally comes from the Spanish word.
 

KinkyOne

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
I'am not perfect, but I'm always myself!!!
...
Now that I read this again ... covers face from forehead to upper lip??? <sigh>. Read the RAE entry, there is of course more than one definition for mascarilla in this dictionary of the Spanish language.
I think there's some logic in simplifying mascarilla to nowaday use. From the forehead to upper lip it would cover approximately the same amount of the face as from the chin to the tip of your nose.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I think there's some logic in simplifying mascarilla to nowaday use. From the forehead to upper lip it would cover approximately the same amount of the face as from the chin to the tip of your nose.
The suffix Illa only means small and is a diminutive.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
It does. However, in Spanish, we call it "rímel" 😅
That's funny, I would never have guessed it ☺. I suppose it is derived from a brand name? I see that there is a cosmetics brand called Rimmel.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Inglés (2019)
I know that but why inventing whole new word for basically the same thing that just covers different section of the face. That was what I meant by simplifying it.
The article gives the impression that the use of "mascarilla" to refer to a face mask covering your nose, mouth and chin was kind of invented as a result of the covid crisis, when that's not the case. The word mascarilla (with that meaning) was in use long before that. The only difference is that now "mascarillas" are an everyday item and they often get discussed/mentioned in conversations. Before they became compulsory, they only got discussed by those who needed them.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I know that but why inventing whole new word for basically the same thing that just covers different section of the face. That was what I meant by simplifying it.
It hasn't invented a new word.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
The article gives the impression that the use of "mascarilla" to refer to a face mask covering your nose, mouth and chin was kind of invented as a result of the covid crisis, when that's not the case. The word mascarilla (with that meaning) was in use long before that. The only difference is that now "mascarillas" are an everyday item and they often get discussed/mentioned in conversations. Before they became compulsory, they only got discussed by those who needed them.
Thank you for this excellent summary and correction! I've now edited my earlier post to correct the misinformation in the Local.es article. Really sloppy writing.

I've learnt in the meantime that the Real Academia Española did discuss various terms that are related to Covid-19 in a session a few months ago but not because mascarilla is a new word or acquired a new definition (it didn't) but more generally because it is now more frequently used by everybody, as you say, and also because there are other terms for this item (covering nose and mouth) in the various zones where Spanish is spoken (like Cuba or Bolivia etc) such as barbijo or tapabocas etc.
 
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nycwalking

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Ourense to Santiago (2019), CF: (2014, 2004, 2002, 2001). On to Fisterra, (2002, 4, 14).
I don't quite get what you mean. We know next to nothing about the vaccine developed in Moscow let alone about Putin's daughters or which of them had the vaccination. For what it's worth, one of his daughters is apparently a medical doctor/medical researcher in Moscow.
That brings some clarity to her receiving vaccine.

Initially, I could not decide if she was a lamb to the slaughter or else.
 

Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Aragones-Frances (2016); VdlP-Sanabres (2017); Madrid-Frances-Invierno (2019)Levante
Camino walkers with habitual residence in Russia can probably be counted on the fingers of two hands
I met one young woman from Russia when I was walking the Aragones in 2016. I doubt if she was the only one.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
I met one young woman from Russia when I was walking the Aragones in 2016. I doubt if she was the only one.
Sure. Even in July 2020, there are 26 pilgrims listed next to "Russia" (and 43 pilgrims next to "United States" btw) in the statistics of the Pilgrims Office in Santiago but I assume that they are currently residents in an EU country or in one of the other countries that are not subject to EU (incoming) travel restrictions and that the majority did not fly directly from Russia to walk a camino in Spain right now. This summer is different from other summers.
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
I think there's some logic in simplifying mascarilla to nowaday use. From the forehead to upper lip it would cover approximately the same amount of the face as from the chin to the tip of your nose.
It depends on the shape of your head, Kinky. My head is quite small. I could possibly get coverage from forehead to chin either direction
Exactly what I'm talking about. They didn't invent a new word.

But maybe you misunderstood me because of my "English"...
Kinky, your English is superior to mine and I live in the USofA.
 
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domigee

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2020? Looks like.... nowhere! 😁

Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016

Galicia bans smoking in the street, terraces, etc if the distance 2 m is not possible.
The reason is the smoke is a vector of infection.
Galicia is the first region in Spain and I think Europe.
The pandemia is converting Spain in a federal country in practice. A law like this wouldn't be possible for an autonomous community before.
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF : stages 2008, 2017, 2018 ; completed.

Antibody study from Imperial College on random sample of the English population, with very similar results to the Spanish one.

Infection rate overall 6% ; higher in London, BAME community, health and care workers and those 18 -24 yrs.
IFR (excluding care homes) : 0.9%.
Asymptomatic : around 32% of those with positive tests reported no symptoms ; so everyone needs to follow precautions.

Take-home messages :

1. Covid -19 is much more dangerous than influenza ( IFR x 9 of "usual" flu and at least x 4 that of "severe" flu).

2. Herd immunity is very much in the future.
 

thejoker

Member
Camino(s) past & future
many

Galicia bans smoking in the street, terraces, etc if the distance 2 m is not possible.
The reason is the smoke is a vector of infection.
Galicia is the first region in Spain and I think Europe.
The pandemia is converting Spain in a federal country in practice. A law like this wouldn't be possible for an autonomous community before.
This is absolutely fantastic news.
I really hope the law stays after everyone has been inoculated and Covid-19 defeated and that it is extended to the other regions.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019

Galicia bans smoking in the street, terraces, etc if the distance 2 m is not possible.
The reason is the smoke is a vector of infection.
Galicia is the first region in Spain and I think Europe.
The pandemia is converting Spain in a federal country in practice. A law like this wouldn't be possible for an autonomous community before.
A very good indicator of how far exhalations from your mouth can travel. Even worse when the wind is strong. I hadn't thought of that before...well done.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
Oh well -- travellers from France to the UK or from UK to France will need to go into a 14 day quarantine, following a decision by the UK Government and France's systematic application of tit-for-tat measures in such cases.

As a reminder, traveling from the UK to Spain does not require a quarantine, but traveling in the other direction does.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
Paris and the Bouches-du-Rhone (around Marseilles and Aix-en-Provence) have been declared "red" areas, meaning that the Authorities there could now impose local lockdowns. Hasn't happened yet, but some Covid19 restrictions are likely it seems.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
As I digest my early morning update the headline reads "British holidaymakers in rush to beat the deadline". I can only ask myself the question....why be in such a rush in the first place?
 

jsalt

Jill
Camino(s) past & future
Portugués, Francés, LePuy, Rota Vicentina, Norte, Madrid, C2C, Salvador, Primitivo, Aragonés, Inglés
Just for the record we (in South Africa) have not been able to buy cigarettes since March – a total non-smoking ban countrywide. The original reason was that housebound children should not have to suffer the pollution from smoking parents.

And, apart from a short break in June, we have not been able to buy alcohol either since March. The first reason was to free up the hospitals from alcohol-related injuries. The second reason was because of the sharp rise in domestic violence when the men couldn’t go out to work.

Meanwhile, the black market is doing a roaring trade . . . . the government is losing all the taxes they normally receive on tobacco and liquor . . . . I will stop now or this will become political . . . .
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Just for the record we (in South Africa) have not been able to buy cigarettes since March – a total non-smoking ban countrywide. The original reason was that housebound children should not have to suffer the pollution from smoking parents.

And, apart from a short break in June, we have not been able to buy alcohol either since March. The first reason was to free up the hospitals from alcohol-related injuries. The second reason was because of the sharp rise in domestic violence when the men couldn’t go out to work.

Meanwhile, the black market is doing a roaring trade . . . . the government is losing all the taxes they normally receive on tobacco and liquor . . . . I will stop now or this will become political . . . .
Wow...that is radical.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
So very, very, VERY true. I am absolutely certain that nobody is laughing.
The subject, and the issues raised, is far too broad to even scratch the surface.
Some of the solutions to the problems we face have been hiding in plain sight all along.
I took this very seriously a long time ago...
The solutions are unpalatable to some and ignored by others. While this situation exists we will only make matters worse..
I took my sunglasses off a while ago.
 

Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Aragones-Frances (2016); VdlP-Sanabres (2017); Madrid-Frances-Invierno (2019)Levante
Please, this is not a funny thread.
No it is not. We are in the midst of a most tragic situation, which reminds us of our mortality and of the fragility of our world. And this thread was initiated to enable us to discuss the pandemic situation.
But, in the midst of the most tragic situation, absurdities will come to the surface, usually introduced by governments using powers which they have given themselves to allow them to manage the situation as they see fit. @jsalt has introduced one such situation and given those of us who need a laugh the opportunity to recognize this absurdity. We will, rightly, go back to following the pandemic situation. But some of us appreciate hearing about the absurdity, for the relief of a brief giggle.
 
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Ianinam

Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2013 / CP 2018
Hospitalera at Roncesvalles:
2015/2016/2017/2018/2019/2020
The Dutch Gouvernment of Foreign Affairs will issue code orange for Navarra as of 0.00 tonight. Code orange means: unnecessary travel to that area is prohibited for people from the Netherlands. This means that the (Dutch) hospitaleros who are working in the albergue of Roncesvalles will have to return home as soon as possible and will have to self-quarantaine at their return home, and no new groups of hospitaleros are allowed to travel to Roncesvalles. We all feel very, very sorry and sad .....
 

arthur1218

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino de Tortuga
Sorry to hear that you won't be coming to Roncesvalles in September for the hospitalera duty, Ianinam, but just a few hours ago you gave someone on the forum this advice:
My advise at this moment would also be: don't go.
Well, you called it :rolleyes: You issued a recommendation for yourself and for your friends getting ready to go to Roncesvalles.... But it will be safer for you and other Dutch hospitaleros, as many of them are in the high risk group.

I'm always shocked how little time the authorities give for the necessary travel home arrangements. If you walk the Camino, you have to be super alert all the time, otherwise you may get stuck in Spain for 3 months like the pilgrims in Fuenterroble.
 

Ianinam

Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2013 / CP 2018
Hospitalera at Roncesvalles:
2015/2016/2017/2018/2019/2020
@arthur1218, when I wrote my earlier post I already expected that our Ministry of Foreign Affairs would adjust their advice, but I did not know it would be today ..... Being a member of the Working Group of the Dutch hospitaleros I can tell you we check many Spanish sites daily, we are well informed so therefore I gave this advice earlier today.
 

arthur1218

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino de Tortuga
I absolutely don't blame you or try to ridicule, @Ianinam, I think your advice was very valuable, maybe even life-saving. Maybe the Dutch government decision will be life-saving for you, too. The situation worsens, and hospitaleros in Roncesvalles deal with almost a hundred of various pilgrims every day, not necessarily the most disciplined ones... I was actually wondering, even before the Dutch authorities issued the ban on Navarra, what will be with Roncesvalles albergue if this happened? Will the albergue close? there is probably 10 volunteers or maybe more working there. I don't think many Navarrians will apply to work there for free. Will the albergue survive? 🐢
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
I'm always shocked how little time the authorities give for the necessary travel home arrangements. If you walk the Camino, you have to be super alert all the time, otherwise you may get stuck in Spain for 3 months like the pilgrims in Fuenterroble.
I think that the reality is a little different.

As far as I can tell, during the whole time since March until now and within Europe, nobody got ever "trapped" anywhere or couldn't get home if they wanted to. What may happen is that it becomes expensive and/or time consuming to return home, or else, that you want to return home very quickly for a reason, like some of the British tourists in France who wanted to avoid the obligation of having to self-isolate if they missed the deadline of arriving in the UK at 4 am local time today.

But returning home has always been regarded as an essential journey in all countries as far as I can make out, and certainly in the countries concerned like Spain, France, Italy etc. And essential journeys were and are allowed.
 

Ianinam

Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2013 / CP 2018
Hospitalera at Roncesvalles:
2015/2016/2017/2018/2019/2020
I really don't know @arthur1218. We have informed them this afternoon, and as daily many Spanish pilgrims sleep there, I suppose they will have to find Spanish people to do our work. This is a situation we hoped it would never come, new for us, hospitaleros, and new for them.
Last March we also suddenly had to withdraw our volunteers, but that was because the albergue had to be closed by the Spanish gouvernment. This iis different: the Dutch gouvernment does not allow us to travel to Navarra.
 

KinkyOne

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
I'am not perfect, but I'm always myself!!!
I really don't know @arthur1218. We have informed them this afternoon, and as daily many Spanish pilgrims sleep there, I suppose they will have to find Spanish people to do our work. This is a situation we hoped it would never come, new for us, hospitaleros, and new for them.
Last March we also suddenly had to withdraw our volunteers, but that was because the albergue had to be closed by the Spanish gouvernment. This iis different: the Dutch gouvernment does not allow us to travel to Navarra.
How would your government possibly know where you are going?

As I see it it's on Spanish authorities to either let you or not into Spain regarding the current CoViD-19 status your country has. And after returning back home Netherlands authorities may ask you where have you been and again regarding the current status of the place you are returning from can ask for negative CoViD-19 test from you or order you quarantine.
 

Ianinam

Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2013 / CP 2018
Hospitalera at Roncesvalles:
2015/2016/2017/2018/2019/2020
@KinkyOne, the ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Netherlands give an advice to travellers with a Dutch passport. In case we travel to a 'code orange' area we cannot expect any governmental help in case we have to be repatriated because we deliberately travelled to a dangerous area. Also our travel and health insurance will not pay all the costs in case we get infected with Covid-19 and have to be taken into a hospital. So we better follow the rules of our gouvernment .....
 

jsalt

Jill
Camino(s) past & future
Portugués, Francés, LePuy, Rota Vicentina, Norte, Madrid, C2C, Salvador, Primitivo, Aragonés, Inglés
But, in the midst of the most tragic situation, absurdities will come to the surface, usually introduced by governments using powers which they have given themselves to allow them to manage the situation as they see fit.
An update: our president has just addressed the nation – we can move to the next level of lockdown from midnight on Monday 17 August . . .

this means we can now cross provincial boundaries, the cigarette ban will be lifted, alcohol can be sold from Mondays to Thursdays from 9am to 5pm, and restaurants and hotels can open again, with restrictions.

The curfew remains though: we are not allowed out of our homes between 10pm and 4am. Trying to work out the reasoning behind that one . . . .
 

arthur1218

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino de Tortuga
during the whole time since March until now and within Europe, nobody got ever "trapped" anywhere or couldn't get home if they wanted to.
... and that makes you think it won't ever happen again :rolleyes: uhmmmm. OK! :)
I am a happy turtle now 🐢😇
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
The curfew remains though: we are not allowed out of our homes between 10pm and 4am. Trying to work out the reasoning behind that one . . . .
If it's any consolation: the citizens of Antwerp in Belgium are currently subject to a Covid-19 curfew from 1:30 am until 5:00 am. It was previously from 11:30 pm until 6:00 am.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
... and that makes you think it won't ever happen again :rolleyes: uhmmmm. OK! :)
I am a happy turtle now 🐢😇
I don't quite understand your comment but since you want to know what I personally think: Yep, I am absolutely confident that the country of my nationality will always let me return, and I am even confident that this applies to the neighbouring countries. Judging by what I read in the news I'm not so sure about yours. 🙃🤭

From memory, I remember that one of the pilgrims in Fuenterroble said he didn't have the money to return to Italy. Another one was on a bicycle trip from the Netherlands to Morocco and I guess he wanted to sit out the lockdown instead of interrupting such a monumental trip and returning home. I am not convinced that they were "trapped" because of their government's or the Spanish government's actions. Financial or other personal reasons, yes.
 
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arthur1218

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino de Tortuga
What if you get caught in a quarantine region while walking through Spain? Your country may let you in but the Spanish authorities may impose restrictions on travel within Spain, making it difficult for you to get out . Throughout all the winter ;)
And how do I get to Isla Tortuga if suddenly Spain introduces flight ban? I don't have a catamaran and my legs are too short to swim the Atlantic!

After the Brits, the Germans abandon Spain
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
What if you get caught in a quarantine region while walking through Spain? Your country may let you in but the Spanish won't let you out. Throughout all the winter ;)
I am just answering because I have a feeling that there are misconceptions: during the severe national lockdowns in March/April, when the borders between EU countries were "closed", I don't know of a single EU country that did not let people "out". As to Spain, during the whole time, you could hire a car and drive across the Spanish border if you were on the way home to your place of residence.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
This most recent official travel warning issued by the German government is yet another severe blow to the tourism sector of Spain because it means that package tours and charter flights are cancelled. But as Germany’s Federal Minister for Health pointed out in tageschau.de, it doesn’t mean that people are barred from travelling to Spain. He said: "Vacation in Spain continues to be possible - but be careful".
 
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C clearly

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016), VDLP (2017), Mozarabe (2018), Vasco/Bayona (2019)
What if you get caught in a quarantine region while walking through Spain? Your country may let you in but the Spanish won't let you out. Throughout all the winter ;)
And how do I get to Isla Tortuga if suddenly Spain introduces flight ban? (think about it, Bombay Bill) I don't have a vagabonda catamaran and my legs are too short to swim the Atlantic!
There are certainly some logistical problems such as you describe, that could result in a person being unable to get home conveniently. If you have short legs and no catamaran, then you are wise to consider your particular situation before you set off.

However, it is not helpful to dash off generalizations that are inaccurate - such as "the Spanish won't let you out." It is more informative to say "the Spanish may impose restrictions on travel within Spain, making it difficult for you to get out."
 

arthur1218

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino de Tortuga
That's beautiful wording, C Clearly. Thank you, you are a native speaker (I'm not), so I made adjustments to my post. I even added word 'authorities' to make the meaning absolutely clear! I'm still not convinced that hiring a car in Spain and driving across Europe for example to Romania in the middle of the lockdown would be possible, but... let's leave it to the imagination of the readers.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
Another Spanish word that I learnt in connection with reporting about Covid-19 situations is botellón. It even has an entry in the English Wikipedia where Botellón is defined as a Spanish activity when people congregate in public areas to socialize while drinking alcohol. The activity is popular among teenagers and young adults [...]. EN Wikipedia claims that Botellón usually begins around 11 pm and ends around 3 am when many people move to a bar or club.

As far as I know such nightly gatherings are no longer allowed in Galicia because of Covid-19 and perhaps the same applies elsewhere. Only today there's been another article in La Voz de Galicia that says that the local authorities are intensifying controls to stop "el botellón". In all the years of following pilgrims' reports here and elsewhere online about their experience of local life along the caminos I've not seen this word. Of course, camino walkers mostly lie in their beds by 9 pm and some occasionally complain about noise from the street or plaza ... 🙃.
 

Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata, Portuguese, Primitivo
There are some countries that are not allowing their citizens to leave. Under public health laws, due to Covid 19, Australian citizens and permanent residents cannot leave Australia without an exemption certificate, and they are only given for very specific reasons.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
There are some countries that are not allowing their citizens to leave. Under public health laws, due to Covid 19, Australian citizens and permanent residents cannot leave Australia without an exemption certificate, and they are only given for very specific reasons.
I've been aware of this and it makes eminent sense to me because when people leave for a vacation they want to come back again soon after, and knowing Australia only from world maps, it always strikes me as a self-contained country with neat external borders that are not easily crossed 😊.

For me personally, this is also a good example of how much our thinking is conditioned by what we are familiar with because my very first reaction was: This is so medieval ☺. Because we learnt in school that medieval pilgrims and other travellers could not just grab their satchel and leave for Santiago the next day. They often needed an exemption from their feudal lord or from another official authority to be allowed to leave home and cross the next border (which was often very close).
 
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Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata, Portuguese, Primitivo
There is always a tension between individual rights and communal good, instant gratification and long term benefit.

The majority of our states (although not the most populous) are in the enviable position that they have no community transmission. People can go about their daily lives without worry, businesses can operate almost as normal. The exceptions, of course, are those that depend on overseas/interstate trade and connections.
 

NorthernLight

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy to Santiago via the Frances 2012-2013. EPW2015
Aragonese & Frances 2016
Burgos to Muxia 2017
Another Spanish word that I learnt in connection with reporting about Covid-19 situations is botellón. It even has an entry in the English Wikipedia where Botellón is defined as a Spanish activity when people congregate in public areas to socialize while drinking alcohol. The activity is popular among teenagers and young adults [...]. EN Wikipedia claims that Botellón usually begins around 11 pm and ends around 3 am when many people move to a bar or club.

As far as I know such nightly gatherings are no longer allowed in Galicia because of Covid-19 and perhaps the same applies elsewhere. Only today there's been another article in La Voz de Galicia that says that the local authorities are intensifying controls to stop "el botellón". In all the years of following pilgrims' reports here and elsewhere online about their experience of local life along the caminos I've not seen this word. Of course, camino walkers mostly lie in their beds by 9 pm and some occasionally complain about noise from the street or plaza ... 🙃.
I recall walking through a town at about 6 am, and encountering a couple of young folks vomiting their contents in an empty lot next to the camino. Around the corner, their friends were spilling out of the bar. 3:00 am was clearly a guideline rather than a rule.... 😮
 

KinkyOne

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
I'am not perfect, but I'm always myself!!!
I recall walking through a town at about 6 am, and encountering a couple of young folks vomiting their contents in an empty lot next to the camino. Around the corner, their friends were spilling out of the bar. 3:00 am was clearly a guideline rather than a rule.... 😮
The Wikipedia source which @Kathar1na posted and quoted by you clearly says that Botellons end at 3am when teens go into bars not out of them :D That's no guideline and no exact rule either. Anyway we are talking about CoViD-19 situation and as I see your last Camino was in 2017...

Many times on my Caminos I've seen village folks still around next day at 10am after fiesta from the previous day. It's Spain and I love it ;)
 

Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
As far as I know such nightly gatherings are no longer allowed in Galicia because of Covid-19 and perhaps the same applies elsewhere
Yes, botellones are now forbbiden everywhere in Spain and also smoking in the street if 2m is not possible. The autonomous communities will implement it as soon as possible.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
Today's Spanish word with a Covid-19 connection is rosquillas - donuts. I've never heard about this before.

The 16th of August is the feast day of San Roque - Saint Roch in English. You may have seen his statue along the Camino Frances, he is often dressed as a pilgrim complete with staff and Saint James shell. San Roque became very popular in the later stages of the Middle Ages throughout Europe and was invoked against the plague. A promise was made to him in 1517 by citizens of Santiago de Compostela and in this tradition a solemn mess was held yesterday by the archbishop, Monseñor Barrio, and a symbolic traditional "offer" of 400 € was given to charities. And apparently these donuts were sold in the streets of Santiago.


Rosquillas.jpg
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Francés; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
If you are interested in the current Covid-19 situation in Spain, I think there are two reasonably good articles in the English language edition of El Pais of today. Here are the two links:

Why is Spain being hit again by the coronavirus pandemic?
What do the coronavirus data from August tell us about the new spread of the virus in Spain?
I confess I have not read all of these posts, as I only dip into covid news occasionally to keep my sanity. But I am wondering if there is any good analysis to suggest why Italy is doing so much better than Spain.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
Social gatherings of more than 10 people have been banned in Catalonia.

Of more than 6 people in Murcia.

But I am wondering if there is any good analysis to suggest why Italy is doing so much better than Spain.
It's really quite strange that Spain is doing so much worse, and one can't help but wonder why.
 

Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata, Portuguese, Primitivo
Could members please refrain from posting links to unverified medical opinions? We don't want the forum to become another platform for the spread of misinformation. Stick to WHO, government websites and advice, or peer reviewed and verified reputable publications. This is not a question of "political correctness", it is an issue of reliable data.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2019)
I confess I have not read all of these posts ....... But I am wondering if there is any good analysis to suggest why Italy is doing so much better than Spain.
The linked articles cover this to some extent, although they are not comparative.

One opinion that is widely held amongst the selected medical experts that were interviewed is - inadequate data systems. Another is - the medical structure (different regions are autonomous) and another is inadequate contact tracing.

Here in NZ during the first wave we have a regional healthcare system and we found that the regionally administered contact tracing systems were unable to share data quickly enough to be effective and out of region contacts were falling between the cracks so they were all replaced with a national system and beefed up with additional capacity.

Of course, we have other advantages and so there are no direct comparisons possible but the local Spanish medical experts seem to be saying (in the articles) that they have a similar problem but it has not yet been resolved.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
But I am wondering if there is any good analysis to suggest why Italy is doing so much better than Spain.
Hi. I don't want to be trivial but I think the main reason is that Italy was the first in Europe to ascertain that it was hit by the covid.
Even if we didn't notice it immediately, so much so that the infected subjects wandered undisturbed among the emergency rooms among doctors, nurses and other (many) patients.
Many times. They were accepted, diagnosed with illness as flu, prescribed medicines and sent home. But as the symptoms worsened they returned to the emergency room. This takes about a week.
So we took action and since then, between important restrictions, government directives, openings and monitoring we are still continuing.
However, the summer vacation period has again raised the bar for many outbreaks discovered in tourist areas.
It must also be said that the number of swabs (screening) has physiologically decreased in August ...

[Edited by Moderator]
 
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JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
The Spanish Government will allow the Regions to request a regional State of Alarm if deemed necessary.
 
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