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COVID COVID-19: Corona virus discussion (ROUND 8)

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
I think these rules have served us pretty well. So here we go with Round 8 as requested. I added one rule. Round 7 is now closed and can be found here. Buen camino, Laurie

PLEASE...Please stick with the forum rules against Politics...it is always a problem. Do not post links to other sites that offer criticism or opinion of any Country or national leader. The forum is not the place for political discussion or argument.

Please do not offer medical advice or pass on unsubstantiated rumors or unofficial sources.

Please do not offer opinions on whether someone should or should not walk the Camino.

It is okay to discuss what’s happening with you here. People are a bit scared and some here are alone. Maybe we can share and comfort one another.

Rudeness or attacks on others will simply be deleted without comment
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
Please do not offer opinions on whether someone should or should not walk the Camino.
Thank goodness for this one. The endless GO...DON'T GO discussions were fine the first time, or second or evn the third...but by now we've all heard all the arguments about each multiple times. so if you keep offering your advice, but no-one is listening, it doesn't help at all to say it more or louder, at every opportunity.
 

jpflavin1

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF(10,11,17), Vasco(12), Salvador(13), CP(13), CN(14), Madrid (16), Mozarabe (18), VdlP(19)
I am curious as to wether there is any update on the Pilgrim who was walking with Covid?

ie: How many others were infected? Any lessons to be learned for future walkers during this time?

Since the thread was shut down, I have seen no updates.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
Thank goodness for this one. The endless GO...DON'T GO discussions were fine the first time, or second or evn the third...but by now we've all heard all the arguments about each multiple times. so if you keep offering your advice, but no-one is listening, it doesn't help at all to say it more or louder, at every opportunity.
it should be so ... but then, even recently, it is not so...🤷‍♂️
they weren't good the first time either🙄
 

Galloglaigh

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Lycra tribe.
CF (2017/8), VF (2018/9), Old Way (2020), VFnS (2020), CP (rebooked) (2021), VdT (ToDo)
Just to add. Talking to my Galician niece from Ourense. She says that there have been too many young people going to parties without masks and with up to 500 people at an event.

You know what young people are like - fearless and thinking they are immune.
 
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arthur1218

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino de Tortuga
I wish there was one more rule for this thread "please use the human language" and also please think about those whose first language is not English. Sorry to say that some posts in the past used so complicated high-brow medical jargon that I doubt many of us could even follow.
Before you hit "post" button, please kindly imagine you are trying to explain the issue to your 13 year old son/daughter (or grandson/daughter) :)
Thank you in advance!
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I am curious as to wether there is any update on the Pilgrim who was walking with Covid? ie: How many others were infected?
Subsequent tests of the group members showed that 8 people of the group of 17 from Madrid were infected. They spent the night in a private albergue in Arzúa. Then the Galician health authorities required them to sign a declaration which allowed them to leave Arzúa in private cars to spend their quarantine at home.

The Arzúa town council published a communication on their FB page to point out that this outbreak in Arzúa had ceased to exist after the group had left. News media continued to erroneously list an outbreak consisting of 8 persons in Arzúa for many days to come, though, always referring to the Madrid peregrina and the Camino de Santiago.
 

jpflavin1

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF(10,11,17), Vasco(12), Salvador(13), CP(13), CN(14), Madrid (16), Mozarabe (18), VdlP(19)
Subsequent tests of the group members showed that 8 people of the group of 17 from Madrid were infected. They spent the night in a private albergue in Arzúa. Then the Galician health authorities required them to sign a declaration which allowed them to leave Arzúa in private cars to spend their quarantine at home.

The Arzúa town council published a communication on their FB page to point out that this outbreak in Arzúa had ceased to exist after the group had left. News media continued to erroneously list an outbreak consisting of 8 persons in Arzúa for many days to come, though, always referring to the Madrid peregrina and the Camino de Santiago.
So if I interpret your statement above correctly, there have been no further infections connected to this incident?
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF Sep/Oct 2015
C Primitivo Sep / Oct 2016
Portugese Sep/Oct 2017
VdlP, Muxia 2018
I think these rules have served us pretty well. So here we go with Round 8 as requested. I added one rule. Round 7 is now closed and can be found here. Buen camino, Laurie

PLEASE...Please stick with the forum rules against Politics...it is always a problem. Do not post links to other sites that offer criticism or opinion of any Country or national leader. The forum is not the place for political discussion or argument.

Please do not offer medical advice or pass on unsubstantiated rumors or unofficial sources.

Please do not offer opinions on whether someone should or should not walk the Camino.

It is okay to discuss what’s happening with you here. People are a bit scared and some here are alone. Maybe we can share and comfort one another.

Rudeness or attacks on others will simply be deleted without comment
I wonder how many people on the forum have direct knowledge of this C-19 virus, i.e. have been infected themselves, or have a family member who has been infected, have a colleague or friend who has been infected or perhaps is a medical person who has treated patients with Covid-19? I know two medics, not related or known to each other, who have been infected. A male 45 yrs old and female in mid 30s. Both are struggling for 10 - 12 weeks into their recovery. The man has had 2 additional hospital admissions since the first time. The lady continues to experience extreme fatigue and breathlessness. Both were fit, healthy and living full lives before infection. I am just providing this contribution for information purposes. Stay safe everyone
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
Both are struggling for 10 - 12 weeks into their recovery.
This phenomenon has become so widespread that the term “long hauler” has been coined to apply to these individuals.


A colleague of mine, in her early 40s, apparently got infected when transiting the Tokyo Airport in February. She has been on a roller coaster since then. Signs of apparent recovery give hope, then back she slides.

The facebook group, Long Haul Covid Fighters, got so big that the founder has had to break it into smaller groups. Because my friend got the infection so early and has been in this situation for so long, she was added to the “original” group, which has finally managed to make enough noise to get a meeting with the WHO.


It just highlights how many unknowns there are and how devastating this virus is for so many. Yet another consideration to put in the mix when making a decision about walking a camino, or about doing many things for that matter.
 

C clearly

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016), VDLP (2017), Mozarabe (2018), Vasco/Bayona (2019)
Before you hit "post" button, please kindly imagine you are trying to explain the issue to your 13 year old son/daughter (or grandson/daughter)
I agree with the advice to re-read posts for clarity, with the audience in mind, but I think that the following is a good description of the typical audience for this thread...🤓
Isn't this the multi-purpose thread where there is a place for the Covid-19 nerds?
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
I agree with the advice to re-read posts for clarity, with the audience in mind, but I think that the following is a good description of the typical audience for this thread...🤓
A reason I am in the audience...but rarely on stage.🙄
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
there have been no further infections connected to this incident?
None that have been reported in the news or in any of the FB groups that I follow.

The regional news media often have daily reports with details about outbreaks ("brote") which I think are defined as groups of at least 3 people with transmission links between them. These news summaries indicate location, number of infected persons and also the underlying "reason" like family reunion, group of friends, party in a bar, members of the same family etc. The Palas de Rei/Arzua outbreak connected to the peregrina remained at 8 infected persons and didn't increase. And as I mentioned already, the town administration of Arzúa made a point of stating on FB that the outbreak was no longer in Arzúa because the group had been given permission to leave Arzúa and Galicia to return to Madrid and spend their quarantine at their homes.

I got curious to find out how contact tracing works in practice. A main criteria is apparently whether someone has spent at least 15 minutes in face to face contact with an infected person. It's possible that there was no reason to test anyone else than the 17 members of the group. But that is just a thought, I don't know anyone who has first hand knowledge of what happened.

FWIW, one thing that I noticed: When the peregrina moved from Palas de Rei to Arzúa, she moved from one of the 7 sanitary regions of Galicia to another one (from "Lugo" to "Santiago y Barbanza"). I wondered whether that was the reason why the case became public.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I gleaned a bit more information about what it's like on the ground along the Camino de Santiago in Spain in relation to potential Covid-19 cases: it has been claimed that it may currently take as long as 48 to 72 hours (2 to 3 days) before the result of a Covid-19 PCR test is known - although in the Palas/Arzua peregrina case it cannot have taken much longer than 6-8 hours, judging by the news reports. In Galicia, and presumably elsewhere, there is no government sponsored support for pilgrims, or for any other tourists for that matter, who await their test results or who turn out to be positive, ie the authorities do not provide accommodation or transport.
 
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Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
I add other news to those already interesting published by @Kathar1na.
the pilgrim in question informed her travel companions about the symptoms of malaise on her arrival in Palas de Rei and was accompanied to the local health and social center to carry out the PCR test. This test was then sent to the Lugo hospital to check if there was contagion, or not. Having ascertained the positivity to covid -19, the pilgrim was "blocked" near Arzuà. And with her also the group of pilgrims who were together.
7 other positive cases.
All of them, being Spanish citizens and presenting mild symptoms (for those ascertained), were invited to reach their homes, by private vehicle, to fulfill the home quarantine.
Why the pilgrim continued her journey for nearly another 30 kilometers remains a mystery. But it raised the tone of public opinion that the "branded" as irresponsible for not having waited for the outcome of the test.
However, if the severity of the infection had been "important", the pilgrim herself and the other infected would have been hosted in reception centers set up by the health authorities.
These are the news that a friend who lives and works in the suburbs of Madrid had sent me. He is not a journalist or doctor and he reads the national news in print like other people :)
I presume, if they had not been citizens of Spanish nationality, they would have had to join the fiduciary quarantine in accommodations indicated by the same health authorities.
At the basis of everything is the unanimous agreement reached by the Spanish Minister of Health with the autonomous communities of Spain, to implement a series of restrictions affecting the entire national territory, including PCR tests and quarantine measures from to adopt. These measures are minimal, which means that communities that deem it appropriate to establish more restrictive rules will be able to do so.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
What does "fiduciary" quarantine mean?
The fiduciary quarantine is, as the word says, based on trust: it is warmly suggested not to move outside the home and have contact with people. But it does not take place under close surveillance as in mandatory quarantine.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Perhaps someone can confirm if this report is accurate? The numbers in Spain has risen hugely over the weekend? We've been watching the numbers in France, we're very rural here but the larger cities are seeing increases... but 23,500 over the weekend is a large increase?
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/latest-on-...us-cases-surge-by-23-572-over-weekend/1959031
It's correct. It's over three days and corresponds to a bit more than 7,000 cases per day. You can watch a video clip where Spain's Fernando Simón (Spanish health authorities) explains that these figures have to be seen in context. He says that the situation is similar in countries that are comparable to Spain, for example France. The video clip is embedded in this El Mundo article for example; it's possible to switch on subtitles.
 

LesBrass

Likes Walking
Camino(s) past & future
yes...
It's correct. It's over three days and corresponds to a bit more than 7,000 cases per day. You can watch a video clip where Spain's Fernando Simón (Spanish health authorities) explains that these figures have to be seen in context. He says that the situation is similar in countries that are comparable to Spain, for example France. The video clip is embedded in this El Mundo article for example; it's possible to switch on subtitles.
Wow... that does seem a lot. France is seeing an increase but the last few days have been a bit lower ( but could be just the weekend?)... I do wonder as the summer tourist season is ending that perhaps restrictions will start to be more strictly enforced? I live in the Dordogne which is very popular for tourists... friends in the holiday business said June through to August has been fully booked, making up for the lockdown in spring. Covid Numbers in our area are very low but I am happier now the holiday season is waning... and we have less visitors.

I’m certainly not planning on walking my usual autumn Camino ... which makes me very sad 😢
 

arthur1218

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino de Tortuga
The numbers in Spain has risen hugely over the weekend (...) 23,500 over the weekend is a large increase?
Spanish Health Ministry reported on Monday (source) that during the last week 141 people died from Covid-19.
That makes average 20 people dying per day.
In a country of 47,000,000 people.

The Spanish Health Minister Salvador Illa in an interview for La Vanguardia said that "la presión hospitalaria" (the saturation of hospitals) is presently around 5% (source).
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Covid Numbers in our area are very low but I am happier now the holiday season is waning... and we have less visitors.
I can understand that. One thing is certain: those who claimed to be in possession of superior knowledge and told the world in March/April that the virus will just melt in the sun so to speak when the temperature rises during the summer months have been proven wrong. I worry - no, I wonder - about the development now that the summer is coming to a close and people will spend more time inside than outside.

During yesterday's press conference about the current development in Spain, one of the official speakers said this: Además creo que ha fallado la comunicación en temas como las mascarillas. Es verdad que la gente las lleva en general por la calle, pero quizás lo hace más donde es menos necesario”, concluye en referencia a espacios cerrados, donde este instrumento es mucho más útil. People have been wearing face masks in general in the streets and in public spaces but perhaps they did it more where it was less necessary and not in closed spaces where it is a lot more useful.

Single numbers on their own do not tell the whole story and are of limited value for comparisons. But that is a topic that covers a wide area ☺. It is the reason, however, why 3-days averages, 7 days-averages and 14-days averages are looked at. The Spanish authorities publish their official figures during Monday to Friday, and that means that they publish one large figure for Friday, Saturday and Sunday on the Monday which then makes it into the headlines.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
BTW, I spotted an oddity in the El Pais article quoted above. They say that la positividad también es mucho mayor, es decir, cada vez se detectan menos asintomáticos. That is a bit misleading though not actually wrong, now that I think longer about it. 🤔🤭

The positivity rate is the number of persons who test positive (whether asymptomatic or with Covid-19 symptoms such as fever, loss of smell and taste, cough etc) in relation to the total number of people tested.

When you test more, you do in fact detect more people who are positive (= currently carrying the Covid-19 virus), that is easy to comprehend. And when you test lots more you do indeed find comparatively fewer asymptomatic cases ... because you test so many people who are negative and don't currently have the virus! In general, what matters is the overall range of daily testing. The more people you test overall, the better is your ability to assess and control the transmission situation in a given population. And it looks like Spain and her autonomous regions have made good progress in this respect.
 
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LesBrass

Likes Walking
Camino(s) past & future
yes...
I agree about testing finding more cases... it makes sense. France has really really ramped up testing and it feels like you can just drop in a get tested every where but I think last week they said that the new case percentage wise was outstripping the testing rate. When you look at the worst affected areas in France it is larger cities and busy tourist areas... also I wonder if in the east where lots of folks cross borders for work and transport hubs might be causing problems? (only a guess).

I too worry about the impact of winter... fortunately warm autumns here will keep us outside well into October. We normally head south to southern Spain in January but maybe not this year? Unless of course something wonderful happens and we can be free of this.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2019)
The more people you test overall, the better is your ability to assess and control the transmission situation in a given population.
Testing is important but not on its own. Testing is done so that infected people can be identified and then isolated so that they can't infect any more people. In the meantime, however, they have probably already infected their close contacts over the past couple of days.

It is important to get the results of testing quickly, preferably within 24 hours. In the meantime the person tested needs to be isolated. In addition, the recent contacts of the tested person need to be tracked down (within 24-48 hours), isolated and tested. Only then is it possible to contain the virus.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I agree with what you say. However, here in Europe, testing numbers are now also used for the various travel warnings, and I must say that I find some of it pathetic. I won't name countries but in all likelihood they are not the ones that readers may suspect. They use some arbitrary limit - 40 new cases/100,000 heads or 50 new cases or active cases or whatever as basis for these travel warnings or official travel advice. There is no uniform policy, it's a giant patchwork ... and in some countries not only at national level but also at regional level.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
it's a giant patchwork
I just saw in today's news that there is a better word for it: "fragmented approach". ☺
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
as accompanied to the local health and social center to carry out the PCR test. This test was then sent to the Lugo hospital to check if there was contagion, or not.
I must apologize having instinctively described the acronym PCR as if it were a classic nose-pharyngeal swab. They are two different things. PCR is the biochemical - molecular analysis of the biological substance taken with the swab.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
I am not going to expand the discussion with questions about covid 19, but the reflection I received from a friend is interesting.
He is the director of a company that deals with hotel supplies.
Referring to the employees who work in the company, since the use of masks - the more frequent washing of hands - the use of disinfectants was imposed, he noted that the requests for absence from work due to illness (not for the covid) they dropped by 50% in comparison with other previous periods.o_O
In turn, he got the same conclusion from another executive who even works in a home / retirement center for the elderly.
Maybe this statement can make smile, but it makes me think personally.
Could it become a stable criterion for post-covid too?
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I am not going to expand the discussion with questions about covid 19, but the reflection I received from a friend is interesting
Yes, that is interesting.

I am certainly a lot more aware of what I touch when I am out and about and a lot more careful to avoid catching an infectious disease - although I am also aware that, at least to my current state of knowledge, my greatest risk is being inside, in small spaces, with lots of people who are talking, shouting or singing and who don't think that they are ill, and with little ventilation. I wonder to what extent I will continue to use hand gel in the distant or perhaps not so distant future.

And I have already made an appointment for my annual flu vaccination. Apparently, flu vaccine distribution will be staged this year where I live. First those in the usual risk categories (older, asthma, medical and care home staff etc) and later for others who want it. In the past, I've been a bit casual about this and needed several reminders from my GP or my employer before I had it done. Except when we walked a bit of the Camino Frances one October/November. Having read on the forum how other pilgrims were sneezing and coughing their way through albergue dormitories, I made sure that I had my flu vaccination two weeks before departure. Even when we knew that we were unlikely to stay in albergue dormitories anyway. ☺
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
Whenever I see something like this article,even though it is about the 1918 flu, I realize how very little we know about this disease. So many variables, so many hypotheses. I have so much respect for the scientists and epidemiologists who are laboring to figure this out.

 

jpflavin1

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF(10,11,17), Vasco(12), Salvador(13), CP(13), CN(14), Madrid (16), Mozarabe (18), VdlP(19)
Whenever I see something like this article,even though it is about the 1918 flu, I realize how very little we know about this disease. So many variables, so many hypotheses. I have so much respect for the scientists and epidemiologists who are laboring to figure this out.

Interesting article.
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
Well this is totally not camino related. But it’s happening right here in my town and is extremely depressing. Scientists at my university developed a rapid saliva test. They developed a model, an app, a program to test everyone twice a week (no university access without a screen shot of a negative test), 20 tents on campus for testing 7 days a week. This is a big deal on a campus with 60,000 students. They thought they had thought of everything. The students came back, they started testing. But we have an unexpected big spike, and people are nervous.

Today the computer scientists and others who developed the model explained the model’s flaw. They had accurately predicted the large numbers of students who would test positive, but what they hadn’t factored into their model was the number of students who have tested positive and have totally ignored all the required steps of quarantine, gone to large parties, etc. Instead, they assumed that once diagnosed, the students would follow the rules. Silly them.

I am not sure what the lessons are here, but it does suggest that we cannot rely on voluntary compliance to stop the spread.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
The Spanish Health Minister yesterday ruled out a second lockdown.
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
but what they hadn’t factored into their model was the number of students who have tested positive and have totally ignored all the required steps of quarantine, gone to large parties, etc. Instead, they assumed that once diagnosed, the students would follow the rules. Silly them.
Actually, this could very well be camino-related, if @casa susana 's posts are anything to go on. The locus is different, as are the actors. But the process and the '* them, I'll do what I want' attitude is in common. Unfortunately, this is a global phenomenon.

It may involve a minority of us, but it only takes one superspreader...
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
I am not sure what the lessons are here, but it does suggest that we cannot rely on voluntary compliance to stop the spread.
Highly infectious coronaviruses cannot really be stopped, unless on islands with strict controls upon entry.

But the efforts made in the Spring to keep the numbers of hospitalisations as low as possible did work to a degree.

What I personally make of the current numbers, very high numbers of positives but at the same time some relatively small numbers of serious cases and deaths as compared to the very large numbers of these in the Spring (although I do take note that the situation in Spain is a bit worse in this respect than elsewhere in Continental Europe), is that a) the virus has become widespread among the population, and b) most of the most susceptible to it have already been affected, and c) the population is moving towards gaining herd immunity.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
When you look at the worst affected areas in France it is larger cities and busy tourist areas...
I now think that F. Simón compared Spain to France in the sense that there is a similar uptick in positive cases but not in absolute terms. In my modest opinion, all these figures are of limited value for comparisons, both between different countries and between now and in the spring but they are useful for monitoring current developments.

While it was the number of people who were in hospital or in intensive care or who sadly died in the beginning and later the R-figure that served as metrics it is now the incidence figure, the number of people who test positive in a region, be it a town, a province or a country. It‘s all very unevenly distributed and quite fluid. Still, these figures provide some useful information. Here‘s the newest for Spain from an El País article:

The distribution of cases is very uneven according to region. Madrid continues to account for a third of total positives in Spain, and incidence has reached as high as 467 cases per 100,000 inhabitants in the last two weeks. It is followed by the Basque Country (364) and La Rioja (362). The rest of Spain’s territories come in below 300, with Asturias the lowest at 51. This is well above neighboring countries, such as Portugal (35), the United Kingdom (25), Germany (19) and Italy (26). France exceeds the figure in Asturias, however, with 93, but this is still around half of the overall Spanish average [which is around 200 positive cases per 100,000 inhabitants].

All figures are cumulative incidence over the last 14 days.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
After having posted current incidence figures for Spain taken from an El País article, I checked my home town. I actually live on the border of several small towns and I can therefore chose between 27 infected persons out of 100,000 or 18 or 37.

Depending on how you view it, I officially live in an orange zone or even in a red hot zone and some countries are warning against non-essential travel to my region. What can I say ... I register these figures ... just as I register these figures for regions much further away ... and I think, well .... and the rest of my thinking I am keeping to myself. 🤔

Incidence figures are extrapolated to 100,000 inhabitants. Since my three neighbouring small towns don’t count that many inhabitants, the actual number of known infected persons in my “immediate“ environment are not 18, 27 and 37. They are 2, 2, and 9 - these are the people who tested positive during the last 7 days.
 
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Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Aragones-Frances (2016); VdlP-Sanabres (2017); Madrid-Frances-Invierno (2019)Levante
Today the computer scientists and others who developed the model explained the model’s flaw. They had accurately predicted the large numbers of students who would test positive, but what they hadn’t factored into their model was the number of students who have tested positive and have totally ignored all the required steps of quarantine, gone to large parties, etc. Instead, they assumed that once diagnosed, the students would follow the rules. Silly them.

I am not sure what the lessons are here, but it does suggest that we cannot rely on voluntary compliance to stop the spread.
Yesterday I spent the evening with a family member who is determined to have his usual winter vacation in Mexico, in spite of the high case numbers there and the lack of widespread testing, so that real case numbers may be much higher. He is planning on staying for a month and a half this winter, rather than the month that he spent there last year. He tells me with glee how very cheap the flights are this year, and that he can expect much lower accommodation costs than in previous years, as there will not be as many people going. I listen to him in amazement and hope that he will change his mind.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2019)
Yes, that is interesting.

I am certainly a lot more aware of what I touch when I am out and about and a lot more careful to avoid catching an infectious disease - although I am also aware that, at least to my current state of knowledge, my greatest risk is being inside, in small spaces, with lots of people who are talking, shouting or singing and who don't think that they are ill, and with little ventilation. I wonder to what extent I will continue to use hand gel in the distant or perhaps not so distant future.

And I have already made an appointment for my annual flu vaccination. Apparently, flu vaccine distribution will be staged this year where I live. First those in the usual risk categories (older, asthma, medical and care home staff etc) and later for others who want it. In the past, I've been a bit casual about this and needed several reminders from my GP or my employer before I had it done. Except when we walked a bit of the Camino Frances one October/November. Having read on the forum how other pilgrims were sneezing and coughing their way through albergue dormitories, I made sure that I had my flu vaccination two weeks before departure. Even when we knew that we were unlikely to stay in albergue dormitories anyway. ☺
Yes, this is very interesting and matches what we are seeing here in NZ. Overall deaths from influenza and other communicable diseases have reduced noticeably and sick leave has gone down.
 

trecile

Camino Addict
Camino(s) past & future
Francés (2016 & 2017), Norte (2018), Francés-Salvador-Norte (2019), Portuguese (2019)
Yes, this is very interesting and matches what we are seeing here in NZ. Overall deaths from influenza and other communicable diseases have reduced noticeably and sick leave has gone down.
Here in the US (and I imagine elsewhere) the flu season pretty much stopped when quarantine started.
Every time that I've felt a little throat tickle or sneeze I've wondered how I could have caught anything. Then I realize that it's probably just allergies. 😊
 

jpflavin1

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF(10,11,17), Vasco(12), Salvador(13), CP(13), CN(14), Madrid (16), Mozarabe (18), VdlP(19)
Highly infectious coronaviruses cannot really be stopped, unless on islands with strict controls upon entry.

But the efforts made in the Spring to keep the numbers of hospitalisations as low as possible did work to a degree.

What I personally make of the current numbers, very high numbers of positives but at the same time some relatively small numbers of serious cases and deaths as compared to the very large numbers of these in the Spring (although I do take note that the situation in Spain is a bit worse in this respect than elsewhere in Continental Europe), is that a) the virus has become widespread among the population, and b) most of the most susceptible to it have already been affected, and c) the population is moving towards gaining herd immunity.
I disagree with this Hypothesis
 

jpflavin1

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF(10,11,17), Vasco(12), Salvador(13), CP(13), CN(14), Madrid (16), Mozarabe (18), VdlP(19)
Well this is totally not camino related. But it’s happening right here in my town and is extremely depressing. Scientists at my university developed a rapid saliva test. They developed a model, an app, a program to test everyone twice a week (no university access without a screen shot of a negative test), 20 tents on campus for testing 7 days a week. This is a big deal on a campus with 60,000 students. They thought they had thought of everything. The students came back, they started testing. But we have an unexpected big spike, and people are nervous.

Today the computer scientists and others who developed the model explained the model’s flaw. They had accurately predicted the large numbers of students who would test positive, but what they hadn’t factored into their model was the number of students who have tested positive and have totally ignored all the required steps of quarantine, gone to large parties, etc. Instead, they assumed that once diagnosed, the students would follow the rules. Silly them.

I am not sure what the lessons are here, but it does suggest that we cannot rely on voluntary compliance to stop the spread.
Hard to believe that was not one of the assumptions based on youth behavior during Spring break.:eek:
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I've never found an up-to-date map with a breakdown of positive cases for Spanish towns. Not at the national level and not at the regional level. Today, the Voz of Galicia published such a map but it is behind a paywall. However, you can see a glimpse of it when searching for it. Below is a screenshot, though not in good quality. Areas with more than 42 cases are coloured red (it has to be red, no other colour, to make it alarming 🙄), 14-42 cases are orange, 1-14 cases are pale yellow, and areas with no cases at all are left white. I don't know the time frame (daily, 7 days or 14 days etc.)

Galicia cases.jpg
 
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Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2019)
Below is an interesting read from The Guardian that explores the lack of specific information relating to Covid-19 deaths in and around the villages and towns of Northern Spain and how it lead to speculation about the sources of the infection and briefly looks at the possible repercussions for Spain and the Camino.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
Ciao.
I was looking for information on the real usefulness of plexiglass screens or equivalent material that are used on desks to protect themselves and when the safety distance cannot be guaranteed and I came across a video that can be found at the link shown here http://www.fau.edu/newsdesk/articles/face-shield-study.php
my first reaction was: but are they making fun of us?
sorry 🙁
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I was looking for information on the real usefulness of plexiglass screens or equivalent material that are used on desks to protect themselves and when the safety distance cannot be guaranteed and I came across a video that can be found at the link shown here http://www.fau.edu/newsdesk/articles/face-shield-study.php
my first reaction was: but are they making fun of us?
I am not certain that I understand your concern. I have no doubt that these plexiglas or acrylic screens provide protection. Significant protection. There are many excellent Covid-19 studies done by engineer/technical people and by statisticians. These people are, obviously, neither virologists nor epidemiologists - and btw among the latter, many are not specialised in the area of this coronavirus and the Covid-19 disease. What is omitted in these studies and in these reports that worry us or make us question things is the importance of the viral load. How high is the amount of virus that makes someone actually ill or even just contagious without any symptoms of illness. Nobody knows the answer but presumably the lower the viral load received and inhaled the better.
 
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JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
According to the French Health Minister, France may reduce Covid19 quarantines from 14 days to 7, from advice given by the Science Council.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
I am not certain that I understand your concern. I have no doubt that these plexiglas or acrylic screens provide protection. Significant protection. There are many excellent Covid-19 studies done by engineer/technical people and by statisticians. These people are, obviously, neither virologists nor epidemiologists - and btw among the latter, many are not specialised in the area of this coronavirus and the Covid-19 disease.
ohi, to tell the truth it is not so much a concern but a "surprise". my intervention is not so much on the reliability of the protective screens, of correct size, that are used on desks or on customer reception counters.
It still surprises me now how the "path" that these aerosol droplets of the virus can be scientifically explained ... as if it concerns only covid -19. When instead it concerns any type of foreign pathogen.
Do you (you virologist, you expert in viral diseases) want me to believe that you did not know immediately that certain protective face shields are not so adequate to block the flow of aerosol droplets of the virus?
I have always seen images, especially from hospital settings, that those who wore a face shield also wore a surgical mask.
Well ... I am amazed and maybe it is better this way

What is omitted in these studies and in these reports that worry us or make us question things is the importance of the viral load. How high is the amount of virus that makes someone actually ill or even just contagious without any symptoms of illness. Nobody knows the answer but presumably the lower the viral load received and inhaled the better.
The viral load of course ..... there is debate on this too. They claim that with the summer season (I am speaking in particular here in Europe) it has lost virulence and ability to infect but now it has grown again. In young people it seems to be very high.
In the end, the charge has always been the same.
The difference is made by the type of subjects with contagion. The virus replicates well in some organisms to the point of becoming super spreaders. That is to say that the droplets of saliva emitted with their cough or sneeze could contain a large number of viral particles, compared with other subjects.
Who is telling the truth?
Do they need to do other tests?😩

Yes it is reasonable to say that the less the better.
There is only to continue to live with this "capricious virus" that still keeps us in suspense.
I guess for a while I won't want to talk about it anymore
 

trecile

Camino Addict
Camino(s) past & future
Francés (2016 & 2017), Norte (2018), Francés-Salvador-Norte (2019), Portuguese (2019)
They claim that with the summer season (I am speaking in particular here in Europe) it has lost virulence and ability to infect but now it has grown again. In young people it seems to be very high
Who is claiming that the virus has lost its virulence? I haven't heard of a legitimate epidemiologist or viroligist who has said that.
There is only to continue to live with this "capricious virus" that still keeps us in suspense
Nothing capricious about the virus. It does what a virus does - infects host bodies and replicates. The only thing that currently stops the virus is stopping the supply of host bodies.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
Who is claiming that the virus has lost its virulence? I haven't heard of a legitimate epidemiologist or viroligist who has said that.
no in fact, there wasn't just one who said so. .but more than one.
Of course I'm talking about Europe ... and also about national news.
But believe me, articles with names and surnames of experts ..

Nothing capricious about the virus. It does what a virus does - infects host bodies and replicates. The only thing that currently stops the virus is stopping the supply of host bodies.
said more directly.
yes, that's it
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
According to the French Health Minister, France may reduce Covid19 quarantines from 14 days to 7, from advice given by the Science Council.
I have already read this news.

from the newsletter: the shortening of the quarantine will favor "a better adherence" to the rule - according to the French minister - since today "we record that most of the French do not respect the quarantine".
But doesn't it seem to you that everything is the opposite of everything?
To applaud the news is the world of entrepreneurship ... I had no doubts!
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
This news is about a week old -- but Santona on the Norte has been put on lockdown with no outsiders allowed in.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
To applaud the news is the world of entrepreneurship ... I had no doubts!
They're suggesting that the contagiousness rate of 5% after 7 days versus 2-4% after 14 is such a minimal difference that the game isn't worth the candle after more than a week.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
The Oxford vaccine trial has failed ... 🤒
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
The Oxford vaccine trial has failed
Isn't there a difference between "the vaccine trial has failed" and "the vaccine trial has been put on temporary hold and this was done on a voluntary basis"?

The health news service STAT News reported about this and now it is making the rounds through news media and social media. Their article is here. Their Twitter feed includes the full text of a statement by AstraZeneca who collaborate with Oxford University. Nothing else is known about the case.

(Click to enlarge)
Statement 1.jpg
Followed by further clarification:
Statement 2.jpg
 
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casa susana

Member
Camino(s) past & future
camino frances 2012
I think these rules have served us pretty well. So here we go with Round 8 as requested. I added one rule. Round 7 is now closed and can be found here. Buen camino, Laurie

PLEASE...Please stick with the forum rules against Politics...it is always a problem. Do not post links to other sites that offer criticism or opinion of any Country or national leader. The forum is not the place for political discussion or argument.

Please do not offer medical advice or pass on unsubstantiated rumors or unofficial sources.

Please do not offer opinions on whether someone should or should not walk the Camino.

It is okay to discuss what’s happening with you here. People are a bit scared and some here are alone. Maybe we can share and comfort one another.

Rudeness or attacks on others will simply be deleted without comment
A Recent case of a pilgrim in Baamonde on the Primitivo, with a fever, highlights the problems to be faced if a pilgrim develops symptoms, and is walking completely independently with no support.
In Galicia if you are unwell the protocol is to call 061 and they arrange a test. In this case the pilgrim was directed to go to Lugo the next day for a test. But she explained she had no transport. The local authorities explained they were not responsible for transportation, which is only offered to people with disabilities, and no-one to take them. The pilgrim was quarantined in a tent in the grounds of the albergue. Finally, on the third day, a test was made - I do not have the details of how this was made, and my last information (from a worker in the Galician health service), is that the pilgrim, with a fever of 38.6, was still in quarantine in the tent, waiting for the test results. This case highlights the difficulties faced if a pilgrim develops symptoms. The pilgrims in the Azua situation were allowed to drive back to Madrid in their private cars to quarantine. The pilgrim in Baamonde was not able to access public transport, or a taxi, if she could afford it, to attend a place of testing.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
A Recent case of a pilgrim in Baamonde on the Primitivo, with a fever, highlights the problems to be faced if a pilgrim develops symptoms, and is walking completely independently with no support.
Thank you for bringing this to the attention of forum members. In earlier messages, people implied that camino walkers will be taken care of in cases where they develop symptoms and may have caught Covid-19 and there was even a belief expressed that they will be housed in government sponsored hotels. Not a reflection of the reality, apparently.

The case you mention is reported in El Progreso. I usually don't post whole articles or translations but I think it's time to make an exception although you've provided already all the information. Thanks again.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
The case you mention is reported in El Progreso.
According to the article, it was a 19 year old Polish pilgrim.

She arrived at the albergue on Thursday 3 September with a fever of 38,5 ºC.

The albergue staff activated the Covid-19 protocol, as @casa susana has already pointed out, and called the health service. They were told that the pilgrim had to go from Baamonde to the HULA hospital in Lugo for a PCR test, a distance of about 30 km. She would not be picked up by health service transport because she was not a dependent person (? I guess it means a child or an old person who does no longer live independently). When it was pointed out to them that the young woman had no means to get herself to Lugo, she was told to wait for the arrival of a test team. Isolated from others.

The swab for the PCR test was finally taken on Sunday afternoon at the site of the albergue.

The test result was expected on the following Monday or Tuesday.

They housed her in a tent in the albergue garden for the whole time.

I hope the weather was good. :oops:

And, of course, we don't know whether she even has/had Covid-19.
 
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Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
In earlier messages, people implied that camino walkers will be taken care of in cases where they develop symptoms and may have caught Covid-19 and there was even a belief expressed that they will be housed in government sponsored hotels. Not a reflection of the reality, apparently.
to me it seems to be necessary to emphasize that a hospitalization (whether it is only a fiduciary quarantine) or not, is performed when there is positivity to covid -19. In the specific case, it is not yet clear whether the Polish woman has contracted covid -19.
And then there are different levels of severity of the infection .... mild symptoms / mild fever or serious breathing problems, cough / high fever. Depending on the severity of the subject's health situation, it will be seen whether the protocol provides for hospitalization and/or reception centers set up by the health authorities and/or affiliated hotels.

But here is one thing that is not clear when I read that the polish woman did not have the right to transport because she was not a dependent person ... what does it mean? Is there any reference to the health coverage recognized by the member states by the European community?
Without blaming it, I add that the same health workers who answer telephone calls are not always up to giving valid and clear information. In this specific case I would have put the polish pilgrim in contact with a nearest medical center to perform, to do as soon as possible, the serological test. And then PCR in the specialized center in the area.
But here is just my reflection because I am not aware of specific events. And now, not even the general emergency situation in that area of Spain.

On the other hand, I would see no justification for a patient positive to covid-19 (even with mild symptoms) to be left to fend for himself, in a tent in a green area of the albergues. It becomes a danger to others as well. No I really hope not. I would be embittered.
It would not be in line with "the unanimous agreement reached by the Spanish Minister of Health with the autonomous communities of Spain, to implement a series of restrictions affecting the entire national territory, including PCR tests and quarantine measures from to adopt".

And here I ask to @casasusana or other residents in Spain if this is true ..?

But at this point I am also very curious to know how other states (especially Europeans) behave when a foreigner (present in the territory of that state) shows symptoms of covid-19 contagion?
What is guaranteed to these foreigners?
Thanks for any replies.
 

casa susana

Member
Camino(s) past & future
camino frances 2012
to me it seems to be necessary to emphasize that a hospitalization (whether it is only a fiduciary quarantine) or not, is performed when there is positivity to covid -19. In the specific case, it is not yet clear whether the Polish woman has contracted covid -19.
And then there are different levels of severity of the infection .... mild symptoms / mild fever or serious breathing problems, cough / high fever. Depending on the severity of the subject's health situation, it will be seen whether the protocol provides for hospitalization and/or reception centers set up by the health authorities and/or affiliated hotels.

But here is one thing that is not clear when I read that the polish woman did not have the right to transport because she was not a dependent person ... what does it mean? Is there any reference to the health coverage recognized by the member states by the European community?
Without blaming it, I add that the same health workers who answer telephone calls are not always up to giving valid and clear information. In this specific case I would have put the polish pilgrim in contact with a nearest medical center to perform, to do as soon as possible, the serological test. And then PCR in the specialized center in the area.
But here is just my reflection because I am not aware of specific events. And now, not even the general emergency situation in that area of Spain.

On the other hand, I would see no justification for a patient positive to covid-19 (even with mild symptoms) to be left to fend for himself, in a tent in a green area of the albergues. It becomes a danger to others as well. No I really hope not. I would be embittered.
It would not be in line with "the unanimous agreement reached by the Spanish Minister of Health with the autonomous communities of Spain, to implement a series of restrictions affecting the entire national territory, including PCR tests and quarantine measures from to adopt".

And here I ask to @casasusana or other residents in Spain if this is true ..?

But at this point I am also very curious to know how other states (especially Europeans) behave when a foreigner (present in the territory of that state) shows symptoms of covid-19 contagion?
What is guaranteed to these foreigners?
Thanks for any replies.
The health service and local councils only take responsibility for the transportation of people for a test who have some form of disability which means they are not independent. The European health card does not qualify a person from another European country to anything more than a Galician person under the Galician Health Service.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
But here is one thing that is not clear when I read that the polish woman did not have the right to transport because she was not a dependent person ... what does it mean?
Well, I obviously don't know specifics but non-residents cannot expect any other healthcare treatments and services than those that residents are entitled to in case of a health emergency. That is a basic principle of mutual healthcare provisions in the EU.

Having a fever of 38.5 ºC is obviously not an emergency for an adult. So I don't know how people are expected to either get to a place for a test or have someone come to their home for a test but it's not by ambulance transport (again: unless you are obviously seriously ill, i.e. more than just a fever).

I don't know what people do. I guess they either drive themselves or have a close in-house family member drive them (who will then have to quarantine, I guess, so I wouldn't expect strangers to line up for transporting me) or they make arrangements with their GP or a nurse or someone else from the health service to come to their home to take a swab. And that may be fast or it may take time - until someone comes and until the result is known.

I wonder what I would do. I have a credit card and a driving licence and could hire a car. But how to hire a car in Baamonde? I know that you can hire a car in Lugo because I did it once ☺ but they don't deliver cars to elsewhere for pickup.
 
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casa susana

Member
Camino(s) past & future
camino frances 2012
to me it seems to be necessary to emphasize that a hospitalization (whether it is only a fiduciary quarantine) or not, is performed when there is positivity to covid -19. In the specific case, it is not yet clear whether the Polish woman has contracted covid -19.
And then there are different levels of severity of the infection .... mild symptoms / mild fever or serious breathing problems, cough / high fever. Depending on the severity of the subject's health situation, it will be seen whether the protocol provides for hospitalization and/or reception centers set up by the health authorities and/or affiliated hotels.

But here is one thing that is not clear when I read that the polish woman did not have the right to transport because she was not a dependent person ... what does it mean? Is there any reference to the health coverage recognized by the member states by the European community?
Without blaming it, I add that the same health workers who answer telephone calls are not always up to giving valid and clear information. In this specific case I would have put the polish pilgrim in contact with a nearest medical center to perform, to do as soon as possible, the serological test. And then PCR in the specialized center in the area.
But here is just my reflection because I am not aware of specific events. And now, not even the general emergency situation in that area of Spain.

On the other hand, I would see no justification for a patient positive to covid-19 (even with mild symptoms) to be left to fend for himself, in a tent in a green area of the albergues. It becomes a danger to others as well. No I really hope not. I would be embittered.
It would not be in line with "the unanimous agreement reached by the Spanish Minister of Health with the autonomous communities of Spain, to implement a series of restrictions affecting the entire national territory, including PCR tests and quarantine measures from to adopt".

And here I ask to @casasusana or other residents in Spain if this is true ..?

But at this point I am also very curious to know how other states (especially Europeans) behave when a foreigner (present in the territory of that state) shows symptoms of covid-19 contagion?
What is guaranteed to these foreigners?
Thanks for any replies.
All I can tell you is my knowledge of the Galician health service protocol, from a friend who is a doctor in an after hours health service. As explained to me, a suspected case of Covid is only transported to hospital if seriously ill (not just a fever, as was the case in Baamonde). Otherwise, as I previously stated, one rings 061 and they make an appointment for your test - that is all. No transportation is provided, for Galician citizens, or other EU citizens. Pilgrims need to be aware of this when they undertake a Camino. If they need to quarantine, it is not seen as a responsibility of the health service or the local council to provide for this. I am sorry, but that is how it is. We can question whether this is fair, but it is what it is.
 

casa susana

Member
Camino(s) past & future
camino frances 2012
All I can tell you is my knowledge of the Galician health service protocol, from a friend who is a doctor in an after hours health service. As explained to me, a suspected case of Covid is only transported to hospital if seriously ill (not just a fever, as was the case in Baamonde). Otherwise, as I previously stated, one rings 061 and they make an appointment for your test - that is all. No transportation is provided, for Galician citizens, or other EU citizens. Pilgrims need to be aware of this when they undertake a Camino. If they need to quarantine, it is not seen as a responsibility of the health service or the local council to provide for this. I am sorry, but that is how it is. We can question whether this is fair, but it is what it is.
Quarantine is not only for positive cases of Covid, but also for people with symptoms awaiting tests and results, and also for contacts of positive cases.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
The health service and local councils only take responsibility for the transportation of people for a test who have some form of disability which means they are not independent. The European health card does not qualify a person from another European country to anything more than a Galician person under the Galician Health Service.
thanks for the replies @casasusana.
and also @ kathar1na.
I state that I never wanted to say that an EU citizen must have more benefits than others and above all the Spanish citizen himself. It's probably also because of my English ...
Then. In fact, I have always talked about very specific cases .... and I'm sorry to contradict but from how I interpret the "law" even for a mild case, positive for covid -19, if it has no place to reside (and it is for me the case of a foreign pilgrim but it can also be for a Spanish citizen) must be guaranteed a safe place to fulfill the quarantine. Surely the cost is all charged to the subject.

Here among the points that I would like to clarify once and for all is the medical and emergency procedure for a foreigner who suffers symptoms that could be attributable to covid-19.
I am in contact with a friend who lives in the outskirts of Madrid and this morning harassed him with messages 😛. He sent me a recent document approved by the Spanish government.
It is entitled: "Estrategia de Detección precoz, Vigilancia Y control de Covid -19, 7 de septiembre de 2020 (Strategy for the early diagnosis, surveillance and control of Covid -19, on September 7, 2020).
This updates previous documents that I no longer have. it's long and I don't need to post it here.
However, given some doubts that arose in the messages, I publish part of point n. 4.
"Management of COVID-19 cases with active infection".
All suspected cases will be kept in isolation pending the PCR result and will be the search for your close cohabiting contacts will begin. In case of negative PCR and if not there high clinical suspicion, the case is excluded and the isolation ends.
- Primary care environment.
In cases that do not require hospitalization and are managed in the care setting primary domestic insulation will be indicated, provided that the insulation can be guaranteed Cash. When this cannot be guaranteed, the isolation will be indicated in the hotel or otherwise facilities authorized for such use. In people displaced outside their locality residence at the time of diagnosis, health authorities may evaluate others
alternatives provided they guarantee safety.
-----------------------------------------------

The document does not yet specify how the transport is regulated ... ambulance or own means or I don't know what else.
Maybe somewhere it is better specified. But it's all in Spanish and honestly it would take too long.
If anyone could help, I have the entire pdf available (I repeat, in Spanish).

And I also congratulate the Spanish authorities for having at least put "black and white" some key and hot points. Here to me ..... forget it :rolleyes:

ps: forgive me @casasusana but ensuring hospital transport for the disabled or non self-sufficient people has been known long before the arrival of covid-19.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
And that may be fast or it may take time - until someone comes and until the result is known.
you should be insured within 24 hours of reporting symptoms.
Whether this is really the case is another matter.
But I can honestly understand some of the difficulties of health workers, logistics and the need to follow many ... many cases as well.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
OK ... let's slow down a bit ☺. First of all, we have to distinguish between the stage where you think you may have Covid-19 symptoms but don't know yet for sure; the stage where you tested positive but aren't particularly ill; the stage where you are ill enough to need hospital treatment.

So far, we heard only about a few - very few - pilgrims who tested positive but none of them so ill that they had to go to hospital. Some had already returned home when they learnt that they were positive, some returned home in private cars after they had learnt about it (and got permission to do so), at least one pilgrim stayed for 4 or 5 days in a tent in an albergue garden waiting for the test result and we don't know what happened then.

The number of foreign pilgrims who, unlike other foreign tourists, don't have booked permanent accommodation during their stay in Spain and may have caught Covid-19 is minuscule.

I had a bit of a look at the situation in one large EU country where things are regulated at the regional level. While waiting for test results, people have to quarantine at home or in a "suitable other accommodation" without further details about what that is. While waiting for their test results, they may stay in hotels or holiday apartments. Camping sites and youth hostels with shared sanitary rooms are not suitable. (!)

And the best comes at the end of their information document: In the case of manifest illness, the general principles of medical treatment apply and, if necessary, admission to hospital may follow. Otherwise, it is to be assumed that the person concerned will be strongly advised to return home, if they are deemed able to do so from a health point of view.
 
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trecile

Camino Addict
Camino(s) past & future
Francés (2016 & 2017), Norte (2018), Francés-Salvador-Norte (2019), Portuguese (2019)
This latest discussion reminds me of a recent post on a Camino FB group. The poster wanted to know what to do if he suspected that he had Covid while on the Camino.
What is the protocol? Is it different in each Autonomous Community?
This is something that every pilgrim who decides to walk during this time must research and know. It's not fair to put the burden on hospitaleros in the albergues.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
OK ... let's slow down a bit ☺.
ok, let's slow down 😄
but round and round we are (perhaps) saying the same things. My interventions concern exclusively the procedure for foreigners who are in Spain, in the specific case "The pilgrims". It doesn't matter now if I have more symptoms, fewer symptoms, so and so. Hit if I contracted covid -19. And I'm in Spain ... not my country. Basically, for me a pilgrim who is a non-Spanish citizen *, if I have symptoms and I am found to be positive for covid -19 (regardless of the severity of my health), I have the obligation to quarantine and not having a stable place where to stay (in fact, albergues, campsites and such places are not suitable), a place must be indicated / guaranteed by the health authorities. Also because I have to be available for subsequent monitoring.
And all at my expense.
Transport? Taking into consideration what @casasusana said and how much I know about my nation's procedures, if you don't have severe symptoms it's your responsibility. They don't come to pick you up ...
but I wonder for the pilgrim on duty, how feasible this is if you do not have the collaboration, help, support from someone from the place.
I conclude. I agree that a pilgrim who decides to make the journey must now take into account this situation, which can become really complicated.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I read online that the regional government of the Balearic Islands is renting one hotel on Mallorca for tourists who are contagious but not ill enough for a hospital stay. I've not seen that this is common in areas in Spain that are not as dependent on tourism as these islands.

Mallorca went out of their way and made tremendous efforts to attract foreign tourists from other European countries this summer.
 
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Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Aragones-Frances (2016); VdlP-Sanabres (2017); Madrid-Frances-Invierno (2019)Levante
This pandemic has raised many questions. One which has been raised in this thread is the question of how persons who do not have a car and are not sick enough for an ambulance can get to medical testing for COVID-19. The distinction between dependent and independent is not clear if persons who have been fully independent with the use of public transit are suddenly excluded from public transit. I have no idea if I could get to testing if I developed symptoms. I do know that there is a local telephone number that could advise me on this. I have family in Calgary, but would not rely on them to drive, because this would not be just an issue of someone having to self-isolate for two weeks. This would be a threat to the life of the driver and everyone in his family unit. It is another issue which encourages me to do what I have already decided is best for me: to stay home and follow all public health warnings. However, I have great sympathy for the pilgrim in this situation.
 

trecile

Camino Addict
Camino(s) past & future
Francés (2016 & 2017), Norte (2018), Francés-Salvador-Norte (2019), Portuguese (2019)
This is the type of rash statement that I might expect to see used by an irresponsible news editor.
Right. It hasn't failed. The trial is on hold while one participant's adverse reaction is investigated.

 

Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Aragones-Frances (2016); VdlP-Sanabres (2017); Madrid-Frances-Invierno (2019)Levante
I have been vaccinated for a number of serious diseases, sometimes one time, sometimes seasonally. I have never acquired any of those diseases since. I expect the same from a COVID-19 vaccination. But there will be some results of the pandemic which may take time to recover from: I think of economic and psychological problems. My finances are functional and I am no more crazy now than I was before. I am hopeful for my own future, and for that of my immediate family.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
The vaccine will come. It will come in the fullness of time. The fact the trial.period has come so quickly is a testament to the hard work and expertise carried out by those developing it.
Have faith.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Despite Covid-19, ‘botellón’ culture persists in Madrid - a recent article in the English online edition of El Pais about young people in Madrid during Covid-19 times. I read it and catch myself thinking: "Can you blame them?" Note: These are not people, whether young or old, who know or suspect that they are currently Covid-19 positive and still go to large gatherings and parties where they mix with many others from different age groups, different social groups and different areas and who are the worst offenders, imho.
 

Bristle boy

If not now...when? If not you...who?...........
Camino(s) past & future
2019
Despite Covid-19, ‘botellón’ culture persists in Madrid - a recent article in the English online edition of El Pais about young people in Madrid during Covid-19 times. I read it and catch myself thinking: "Can you blame them?" Note: These are not people, whether young or old, who know or suspect that they are currently Covid-19 positive and still go to large gatherings and parties where they mix with many others from different age groups, different social groups and different areas and who are the worst offenders, imho.
Yes...you are right. it goes on everywhere.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
Those traveling to the UK from Portugal will have to quarantine for 14 days starting from the coming Saturday morning.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
And Portugal is toughening its restrictions.

No gatherings of more than 10 people allowed.

No alcohol sales after 8 PM, and a ban on drinking in public places.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
Despite the recent increase of the number of "cases" in Spain (i.e. positive test results, mainly asymptomatic, although of course still with a proportion of symptomatic cases as such and some more serious illnesses and deaths that shouldn't be downplayed too far), the head of the Emergency Sanitary Services is saying that the current situation has stabilised, and has reached a plateau :


Es la mayor cifra desde que comenzó la crisis sanitaria, pero el crecimiento, más suave que el del los dos meses anteriores, hace a Fernando Simón hablar de “estabilización”. En opinión del director del Centro de Coordinación de Alertas y Emergencias Sanitarias, estamos llegando a “una meseta” en la curva de incidencia.
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
No transportation is provided, for Galician citizens, or other EU citizens. Pilgrims need to be aware of this when they undertake a Camino. If they need to quarantine, it is not seen as a responsibility of the health service or the local council to provide for this. I am sorry, but that is how it is. We can question whether this is fair, but it is what it is.
No need to apologize. There's nothing unfair in what you're saying, @casa susana . It's called personal responsibility.

It's not fair to put the burden on hospitaleros in the albergues.
🙏

I read it and catch myself thinking: "Can you blame them?"
Honestly? Yes.
Rules aren't perfect. But that doesn't excuse flaunting them, especially when putting the community at risk.
That said, someone does need to address the concerns and inconsistencies that these people are justifiably angry about.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
France will reduce its quarantine measure from 14 days to 7.

I do not know if this will affect tit-for-tat measures concerning other countries imposing 14-day quarantines upon travelers from France.
 

Jomas

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VF many times. Monaco-Lindau '15. Assisi-Pietralcina '17. CF '18. VF small part 09/20 next
France will reduce its quarantine measure from 14 days to 7.

I do not know if this will affect tit-for-tat measures concerning other countries imposing 14-day quarantines upon travelers from France.
I was reflecting on the fact that today between the first swab / test, the quarantine, possibly the counter-proof that the patient is really negative, more than 14 days pass .... MAYBE is a way to shorten this timing?
it is certain that this choice will also affect the other members of the EU.:rolleyes:
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
I was reflecting on the fact that today between the first swab / test, the quarantine, possibly the counter-proof that the patient is really negative, more than 14 days pass .... MAYBE is a way to shorten this timing?
Well maybe, but there was a report recently in the New York Times that the current tests have become so sensitive they're detecting even tiny amounts of virus presence so small that there's pretty much zero chance that some completely asymptomatic people testing positive could be contagious, and there's a suggestion that some who have already recovered from asymptomatic or symptomatic infection may still potentially be testing positive from some inert remains of virus fragments.

So I'm doubtful on this basis that "negative tests" will shorten anything ; unless there's positive political will to change things, it seems only that pesky herd immunity thing might do that.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
I was reflecting on the fact that today between the first swab / test, the quarantine, possibly the counter-proof that the patient is really negative, more than 14 days pass .... MAYBE is a way to shorten this timing?
Yes. The reason why officially imposed quarantine times are shortened, for example from 14 days earlier to 7 days now, or why there is currently a discussion about this in various countries in Europe (I don’t know about elsewhere) is the fact that a person can be infected (still carries live virus) but is no longer infectious (virus load has become too low to infect others).

I think for some people this is proof that scientists and governments and authorities don’t know what they are doing and everything they say is wrong anyway while for others it reflects the fact that our knowledge about the virus and the disease is constantly improving and measures are adapted to the most current level of knowledge.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
a person can be infected (still carries live virus) but is no longer infectious (virus load has become too low to infect others).
The diagram shown below was in my news today (translated into English). The NYT article mentioned earlier had also some interesting information. The PCR tests which are the tests most commonly used by health authorities in Spain and other European countries as far as I know, run through a number of cycles in the labs, for example 40 cycles, to find the tiniest bits of virus. This means that the virus load of the tested person can be very low. It could be set to a lower cycle number to find mainly infected persons with a reasonable high virus load who are able to actually infect others, the author suggests (and provided I understood it correctly).

Some of this may explain - but it's just my guess - why we have now, in Europe at least, numbers of infected persons that are as high as in March/April but relatively fewer people who are seriously ill and in hospital or even dying of the illness. A better and improved understanding of the Covid-19 illness and more suitable methods of treatment have also contributed to this positive development.
Infectious phase.jpg
 
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Mycroft

Active Member
I am not going to expand the discussion with questions about covid 19, but the reflection I received from a friend is interesting.
He is the director of a company that deals with hotel supplies.
Referring to the employees who work in the company, since the use of masks - the more frequent washing of hands - the use of disinfectants was imposed, he noted that the requests for absence from work due to illness (not for the covid) they dropped by 50% in comparison with other previous periods.o_O
In turn, he got the same conclusion from another executive who even works in a home / retirement center for the elderly.
Maybe this statement can make smile, but it makes me think personally.
Could it become a stable criterion for post-covid too?
I hope the focus on cleanliness will continue. I still am in shock that back in March we had to teach adults how to wash hands....
 

Mycroft

Active Member

Mycroft

Active Member
Some months ago I made plans to volunteer in Santiago this November. I reserved an apartment there for about 2 weeks. Since then, of course, the state of the world has required me to cancel these plans.
I was in touch with the landlord the other day, telling him that I understood US citizens are not allowed to enter Spain, and I was going to cancel my reservation. He said it is not true that Americans may not enter Spain.
I then looked at the US government website, and read that Americans may be required to isolate in detention centers for 14 days, or may be told at the airport to return to the US.
There are also the COVID regulations in various provinces.
I now am confused about what's what. To be clear, I am not planning to go to Spain this year; I am just confused about finding accurate data.
Will someone explain to me if US citizens are now allowed into Europe? Where is the best online place for me to keep up with changes on these regulations?
Many thanks.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Will someone explain to me if US citizens are now allowed into Europe? Where is the best online place for me to keep up with changes on these regulations?
There are a number of official places to get this information, for example the Spanish government websites or the European Union's websites.

If you live in the United States, a good website is the U.S. Embassy in Spain: https://es.usembassy.gov/covid-19-information/ Question: Are U.S. citizens permitted to enter? Answer: No, only in some limited circumstances.

Walking a Camino is not one of these circumstances.

The topic has been discussed at length in several current forum threads. Just enter Americans Europe into the forum's search box to find them.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and back (no name; Tours; Francés; sea; no name)
Aren't languages interesting? In English medical lingo, melena means black, tarry stool
The two words have nothing to do with each other. They are not related.

Melena = mane, hair is a Spanish word that is derived from an Arab word, like a number of other Spanish words.

Melena = black stool is derived from a Greek word, basically the Greek word melas, meaning black, dark. Related words are melanin (pigment that determines skin colour), melanoma (dark skin cancer spots), melancholic and others.
 

Mycroft

Active Member
The two words have nothing to do with each other. They are not related.

Melena = mane, hair is a Spanish word that is derived from an Arab word, like a number of other Spanish words.

Melena = black stool is derived from a Greek word, basically the Greek word melas, meaning black, dark. Related words are melanin (pigment that determines skin colour), melanoma (dark skin cancer spots), melancholic and others.
Yes I know that. My point was that languages are interesting in their sameness and their differences.
 

Mycroft

Active Member
There are a number of official places to get this information, for example the Spanish government websites or the European Union's websites.

If you live in the United States, a good website is the U.S. Embassy in Spain: https://es.usembassy.gov/covid-19-information/ Question: Are U.S. citizens permitted to enter? Answer: No, only in some limited circumstances.

Walking a Camino is not one of these circumstances.

The topic has been discussed at length in several current forum threads. Just enter Americans Europe into the forum's search box to find them.
Yes, that is the site I mentioned I had gone to and where it said if Americans tried to enter Spain they might be put in 14 day detention or made to go back on the next available flight.
Yes, that is the website that states the particulars of Americans entering Spain (diplomats, residency cards).
I am not sure why the landlord told me Americans are allowed into Spain, so wondered if there was some incident/change I missed. Sounds like you would rather I did not bring this up as it has been dealt with already. Amen.
 

C clearly

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016), VDLP (2017), Mozarabe (2018), Vasco/Bayona (2019)
Sounds like you would rather I did not bring this up as it has been dealt with already. Amen.
It has certainly been discussed but it has not been settled - because the situation is constantly changing and there are many complexities that make generalities inaccurate. So, no one on this forum can give you the accurate information you want.
 

nycwalking

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Ourense to Santiago (2019), CF: (2014, 2004, 2002, 2001). On to Fisterra, (2002, 4, 14).
It has certainly been discussed but it has not been settled - because the situation is constantly changing and there are many complexities that make generalities inaccurate. So, no one on this forum can give you the accurate information you want.
True.
 


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