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wisepilgrim

Guidebook Author
Year of past OR future Camino
Many
Hello all. I’ve been tinkering around with an idea that I think would benefit the pilgrim community and I wanted to run it by the veterans here and the lurking future pilgrims too.

The idea is simple, and is meant to help pilgrims who would like to walk some of the lesser traveled routes to Santiago to get the best information available, by having them write it themselves for the pilgrims who follow behind.

I have the means and the experience to publish books and mobile apps, and that is what I would like to offer to the project… as well as a role in sifting though comments and notes to make sure the whole thing doesn’t become a big mess.

I see the individual guides evolving as such:
1. I will get it started by creating an app just like the others that I have made, specific to a camino. It will contain the usual places and distances and mapping capabilities, and will have at least some start of accommodation listings. This last part really depends on the route, and what I already have collected.
2. The app is free to use, and pilgrims who walk can leave comments along the way. Anything and everything is useful, from mentions of fountains to descriptions of stuff along the way. These comments then get distilled and rolled into the next version of the app (though they are always readable until that edit/publish happens).
3. Once we get to a point where there is a publishable volume, and it seems like the idea should be committed to paper, I will fill in the gaps with the same kind of maps that appear in my other guides. This can be published as a pdf or print on demand or whatever the community deems most suitable.

This isn’t a profitable enterprise by any means, the apps remain free and the books are sold at a level which covers costs of printing if there are any.

It is however a good way, I think, to get better information into the hands of pilgrims wanting to walk the Madrid route, or the Olvidado, or any number of other routes. Many first time pilgrims, or even 2nd/3rd time pilgrims avoid these routes due to the lack of information more than the lack of infrastructure.

I had in mind to begin with exactly the two routes mentioned above, as those are the two that I have done the most research on. However if it turns out that there is someone that wants to contribute enough information on a particular route, I am happy to hear about it.

So what do you all think? Is there a large enough need (a low threshold) for such an initiative? Furthermore, are there any pilgrims reading this that would like to contribute their knowledge to the task?

Or just thoughts in general. I don’t imagine many high quality guides will ever be produced to many of these routes, they are neglected by publishers for their lack of economic viability and by the local government for the same. Might this be a way to make one of our own?

Best regards from Santiago,
Michael
 
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Year of past OR future Camino
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
I think this is a wonderful idea! I have used your apps 3 times now and it’s the technical parts of the app that I love so much (the live maps, the elevation information, the distances to and from stopping points along the way as well as SdC and the live information in comments about accommodations). For the Frances in particular, I really liked the “just enough historical and cultural information” about the towns and cities along the way, and I suspect that this camino community would have even more to offer along those lines.
That this does not exploit the crowd as “content creators” makes it a fair exchange as far as I can see.
As I know *nothing* of these routes, but am hoping to be able to do them in future, I’d love to see the crowd provide its insights in one easy-to use location.
 
Year of past OR future Camino
2017
Hello all. I’ve been tinkering around with an idea that I think would benefit the pilgrim community and I wanted to run it by the veterans here and the lurking future pilgrims too.

The idea is simple, and is meant to help pilgrims who would like to walk some of the lesser traveled routes to Santiago to get the best information available, by having them write it themselves for the pilgrims who follow behind.

I have the means and the experience to publish books and mobile apps, and that is what I would like to offer to the project… as well as a role in sifting though comments and notes to make sure the whole thing doesn’t become a big mess.

I see the individual guides evolving as such:
1. I will get it started by creating an app just like the others that I have made, specific to a camino. It will contain the usual places and distances and mapping capabilities, and will have at least some start of accommodation listings. This last part really depends on the route, and what I already have collected.
2. The app is free to use, and pilgrims who walk can leave comments along the way. Anything and everything is useful, from mentions of fountains to descriptions of stuff along the way. These comments then get distilled and rolled into the next version of the app (though they are always readable until that edit/publish happens).
3. Once we get to a point where there is a publishable volume, and it seems like the idea should be committed to paper, I will fill in the gaps with the same kind of maps that appear in my other guides. This can be published as a pdf or print on demand or whatever the community deems most suitable.

This isn’t a profitable enterprise by any means, the apps remain free and the books are sold at a level which covers costs of printing if there are any.

It is however a good way, I think, to get better information into the hands of pilgrims wanting to walk the Madrid route, or the Olvidado, or any number of other routes. Many first time pilgrims, or even 2nd/3rd time pilgrims avoid these routes due to the lack of information more than the lack of infrastructure.

I had in mind to begin with exactly the two routes mentioned above, as those are the two that I have done the most research on. However if it turns out that there is someone that wants to contribute enough information on a particular route, I am happy to hear about it.

So what do you all think? Is there a large enough need (a low threshold) for such an initiative? Furthermore, are there any pilgrims reading this that would like to contribute their knowledge to the task?

Or just thoughts in general. I don’t imagine many high quality guides will ever be produced to many of these routes, they are neglected by publishers for their lack of economic viability and by the local government for the same. Might this be a way to make one of our own?

Best regards from Santiago,
Michael
Brilliant idea. I suggest you take a look at Active Captain, a crowd sourced boating app, that overlays marine charts and allows input from boaters on routes, marinas, hazards, stops, etc. It would be a phenomenal way to step up access to Camino travel info.
 

wisepilgrim

Guidebook Author
Year of past OR future Camino
Many
Brilliant idea. I suggest you take a look at Active Captain, a crowd sourced boating app, that overlays marine charts and allows input from boaters on routes, marinas, hazards, stops, etc. It would be a phenomenal way to step up access to Camino travel info.
It's not a bad idea, but I don't want to reinvent anything here. The app platform has grown stable enough that it should be adequate. The framework of my website should likewise make it simple for pilgrims to plan.
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
Yay! WisePilgrim is back!

We have done a few “virtual deep dive planning threads” since covid. Vdlp/Sanabrés, Levante, Invierno, Viejo (using that term to distinguish the Olvidado — from Bilbao to Ponferrada — from the Viejo — from Pamplona to Aguilar (on the Olvidado) and then on to Ponferrada) and currently the Olvidado, which you’ve seen.

I can only speak for myself, but the information on those threads is public and I think those of us who have been involved in these labors of love would be delighted to see the information spread farther and wider!

I’ll PM you Michael.
 
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lt56ny

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
CF(2012) Le Puy/CF (2015) Portugues (2017) Norte (2018) CF (2019) VDLP?
I think it is a great idea. I have thought about walking the Madrid in the future. I do not know much about the Olvidado but would love to learn. I am leaning more and more towards the paths less traveled as I get older. I will be doing the VDLP next. Whenever I walk these paths you have mentioned or new ones if you expand this idea I would love to participate.
 

lt56ny

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
CF(2012) Le Puy/CF (2015) Portugues (2017) Norte (2018) CF (2019) VDLP?
Yay! WisePilgrim is back!

We have done a few “virtual deep dive planning threads” since covid. Vdlp/Sanabrés, Levante, Invierno, Viejo (using that term to distinguish the Olvidado — from Bilbao to Ponferrada — from the Viejo — from Pamplona to Aguilar (on the Olvidado) and then on to Ponferrada) and currently the Olvidado, which you’ve seen.

I can only speak for myself, but the information on those threads is public and I think those of us who have been involved in these labors of love would be delighted to see the information spread farther and wider!

I’ll PM you Michael.
With your camino wisdom would you please tell me the distinction between the Olvidado and the Viejo? Do they actually start in different locations? Is it the same but just called different names? Thanks in advance.
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
would you please tell me the distinction between the Olvidado and the Viejo? Do they actually start in different locations? Is it the same but just called different names?
I hope this isn’t TMI, but here is my take on it.

For years, the route from Bilbao to Ponferrada/Cacabelos was called interchangeably the Camino Olvidado or the Camino Viejo. Then around 6 or 7 years ago, Cuñarro (aka Ender in Camino circles) decided that he needed a new challenge. He had opened up, marked and sufficiently promoted the Salvador from León to Oviedo. Since he lives in the provinces of León about 2/3 of the distance between Bilbao and Ponferrada, and since he has boundless energy and love of the mountains, he turned his attention to this route. The big change came when he was able to bring nearly all of the municipalities along the route into one organization. They agreed that they needed a name, but just one name, and voted on Olvidado rather than Viejo. There are still a few holdouts who refuse to switch over from Viejo, but they are a tiny minority.

It turns out that there is a second “branch” of this route that goes from Pamplona to Aguilar de Campóo where it joins the “regular” Olvidado. A few forum members have walked it. To avoid confusion with Olvidado, here on the forum we decided to use the term Viejo to distinguish it. But that’s just us.

Bottom line
Olvidado goes from Bilbao to Aguilar de Campóo to Ponferrada.
What we call Viejo goes from Pamplona to Aguilar de Campóo to Ponferrada.

I am chomping at the bit to walk the “Viejo.” The planning thread VN did revealed a lot of spectacular scenery and amazing historical sites.
 
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lt56ny

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
CF(2012) Le Puy/CF (2015) Portugues (2017) Norte (2018) CF (2019) VDLP?
I hope this isn’t TMI, but here is my take on it.

For years, the route from Bilbao to Ponferrada/Cacabelos was called interchangeably the Camino Olvidado or the Camino Viejo. Then around 6 or 7 years ago, Cuñarro (aka Ender in Camino circles) decided that he had opened up, marked and sufficiently promoted the Salvador from León to Oviedo. Since he lives in the provinces of León about 2/3 of the distance between Bilbao and Ponferrada, and since he has boundless energy and love of the mountains, he turned his attention to this route. The big change came when he was able to bring nearly all of the municipalities along the route into one organization. They agreed that they needed a name, but just one name, and voted on Olvidado rather than Viejo. There are still a few holdouts who refuse to switch over from Viejo, but they are a tiny minority.

It turns out that there is a second “branch” of this route that goes from Pamplona to Aguilar de Campóo where it joins the “regular” Olvidado. A few forum members have walked it. To avoid confusion with Olvidado, here on the forum we decided to use the term Viejo to distinguish it. But that’s just us.

Bottom line
Olvidado goes from Bilbao to Aguilar de Campóo to Ponferrada.
What we call Viejo goes from Pamplona to Aguilar de Campóo to Ponferrada.

I am chomping at the bit to walk the “Viejo.” The planning thread VN did revealed a lot of spectacular scenery and amazing historical sites.
That was barely too much information at all. In fact for an old Camino nut like me, I could have read your narrative even if it was 10 times longer. I love learning about this. I would love if you started some zoom meetings again to discuss your experiences and knowledge about the lesser known and traveled caminos. It would be great to hear from you and some other pilgrims who have walked these routes. Almost invariably a pilgrim who has walked these routes has walked many Caminos and has , like yourself a wealth of interesting and really useful information. I would sign up for those zoom calls for sure. If not thanks so much for this. Cunarro aka Ender would be a great first guest!!! ;)
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
I would love if you started some zoom meetings again to discuss your experiences and knowledge about the lesser known and traveled caminos.
Hi, @lt56ny I don’t want to derail this thread, but I will put my head togetrher with some others to see about starting up some more zooms on the lesser traveled caminos. I think we did Olvidado, Levante, Mozárabe and Invierno. I understand that different people prefer different types of presentations (oral, pictoral, written), and it is true that we have been focusing more on written threads lately to explore these lesser known caminos. But since this lockdown doesn’t show many signs of letting up yet, maybe some more zooms would be a good way to spice things up a bit.
 

wisepilgrim

Guidebook Author
Year of past OR future Camino
Many
I hope this isn’t TMI, but here is my take on it.

For years, the route from Bilbao to Ponferrada/Cacabelos was called interchangeably the Camino Olvidado or the Camino Viejo. Then around 6 or 7 years ago, Cuñarro (aka Ender in Camino circles) decided that he had opened up, marked and sufficiently promoted the Salvador from León to Oviedo. Since he lives in the provinces of León about 2/3 of the distance between Bilbao and Ponferrada, and since he has boundless energy and love of the mountains, he turned his attention to this route. The big change came when he was able to bring nearly all of the municipalities along the route into one organization. They agreed that they needed a name, but just one name, and voted on Olvidado rather than Viejo. There are still a few holdouts who refuse to switch over from Viejo, but they are a tiny minority.

It turns out that there is a second “branch” of this route that goes from Pamplona to Aguilar de Campóo where it joins the “regular” Olvidado. A few forum members have walked it. To avoid confusion with Olvidado, here on the forum we decided to use the term Viejo to distinguish it. But that’s just us.

Bottom line
Olvidado goes from Bilbao to Aguilar de Campóo to Ponferrada.
What we call Viejo goes from Pamplona to Aguilar de Campóo to Ponferrada.

I am chomping at the bit to walk the “Viejo.” The planning thread VN did revealed a lot of spectacular scenery and amazing historical sites.
And this is how it ought to be, and how I will structure it. I too was frustrated/confused by the two routes and two names, and this is the perfect compromise.
 
Year of past OR future Camino
2019
@wisepilgrim, this is a wonderful idea, a slightly higher tech version of what Laurie's been shepherding here on the Forum for the Invierno. As she said, there are planning threads here that are worth mining for information.

I am chomping at the bit to walk the “Viejo.” The planning thread VN did revealed a lot of spectacular scenery and amazing historical sites.
Boy oh boy, me too. Of all the virtual caminos I've walked this last year (Viejo, Invierno, Via de las Asturias, Levante, Lana+San Salvador+Primativo), that one 'grabs' me the most.
 
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wisepilgrim

Guidebook Author
Year of past OR future Camino
Many
@wisepilgrim, this is a wonderful idea, a slightly higher tech version of what Laurie's been shepherding here on the Forum for the Invierno. As she said, there are planning threads here that are worth mining for information.
Indeed I have already folded Laurie's Invierno content into an app (link below). Laurie inherited the Invierno guide from the CSJ, and they in turn received it from Rebekah Scott and myself. Laurie encouraged me to get it into a nicer form, and a proper book was planned before covid came around, but I did manage to get an app done.

What I don't want to do is run around mining for information from these forums without concern for those who have contributed it. Everything that I do use will be published in an organized way on my website (that is where the apps pull their data from, so it is a technical necessity) and it would be easy to misconstrue the effort. Contributors ought to be credited, and though he has not so much as mentioned it a link back to the forums is the right thing to do for Ivar.

But I do think the idea has merit, and if all of these routes could have an app like the one below it would be a tremendous step forward. BTW, the Invierno will get a healthy dose of new photography (at least the bit inside Galicia) next week.



 

Mycroft

Active Member
I hope this isn’t TMI, but here is my take on it.

For years, the route from Bilbao to Ponferrada/Cacabelos was called interchangeably the Camino Olvidado or the Camino Viejo. Then around 6 or 7 years ago, Cuñarro (aka Ender in Camino circles) decided that he had opened up, marked and sufficiently promoted the Salvador from León to Oviedo. Since he lives in the provinces of León about 2/3 of the distance between Bilbao and Ponferrada, and since he has boundless energy and love of the mountains, he turned his attention to this route. The big change came when he was able to bring nearly all of the municipalities along the route into one organization. They agreed that they needed a name, but just one name, and voted on Olvidado rather than Viejo. There are still a few holdouts who refuse to switch over from Viejo, but they are a tiny minority.

It turns out that there is a second “branch” of this route that goes from Pamplona to Aguilar de Campóo where it joins the “regular” Olvidado. A few forum members have walked it. To avoid confusion with Olvidado, here on the forum we decided to use the term Viejo to distinguish it. But that’s just us.

Bottom line
Olvidado goes from Bilbao to Aguilar de Campóo to Ponferrada.
What we call Viejo goes from Pamplona to Aguilar de Campóo to Ponferrada.

I am chomping at the bit to walk the “Viejo.” The planning thread VN did revealed a lot of spectacular scenery and amazing historical sites.
Thank you, P, for this explanation. I am more of a lurker and know little of the insider stories, so this helps a lot!
 
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frbobs

Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Camino Frances-(2014)
Camino Portugues-(2017)
Camino Madrid (August 2019)
Great idea. I walked the Madrid, loved John Walker's guide, but an alternative would have been a welcomed addition. Recently found out that a, seemingly, random route of connected paths is actually it's own Camino (Fonseca), it would be cool to have more on that (Elle Bieling has a wonderful guide). Just a couple of examples to say, "Yeah, do it"
 

lt56ny

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
CF(2012) Le Puy/CF (2015) Portugues (2017) Norte (2018) CF (2019) VDLP?
Hi, @lt56ny I don’t want to derail this thread, but I will put my head togetrher with some others to see about starting up some more zooms on the lesser traveled caminos. I think we did Olvidado, Levante, Mozárabe and Invierno. I understand that different people prefer different types of presentations (oral, pictoral, written), and it is true that we have been focusing more on written threads lately to explore these lesser known caminos. But since this lockdown doesn’t show many signs of letting up yet, maybe some more zooms would be a good way to spice things up a bit.
I know you had zooms on those subjects. I heard a few of them and it was amazing that on the two I really wanted to participate in, Levante and Mozarabe I had prior commitments. As I am walking the VDLP I know I had asked you about that in the past. If you decide to do more zooms that would be really fantastic! If not you are still fantastic and a wealth of information. Like Davebugg is the go to source for equipment, I don't think anyone has more knowledge or information about the caminos we walk than you. Thanks!
 
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Year of past OR future Camino
Le Puy-SJPDP 2014, VDLP 2014,
Arles-SDC 2015, Lisbon-SDC 2017, Part Ruta de la Lana 2019, VDLP 2019
The Mozarabe from Almería and Málaga to Mérida? The VDLP seems well-covered. I'm not aware of a Virtual camino group for these, but some of the intrepids have done the routes and written about them.

You'll find the virtual camino for the Ruta de la Lana highly entertaining, opinionated, and joyful. It was a delight to tag along. If they ever walked together, you'd hear them coming.
 
Year of past OR future Camino
Le Puy-SJPDP 2014, VDLP 2014,
Arles-SDC 2015, Lisbon-SDC 2017, Part Ruta de la Lana 2019, VDLP 2019

alexwalker

Forever Pilgrim
Year of past OR future Camino
(2009): Camino Frances
(2011): Sevilla-Salamanca, VdlP
(2012): Salamanca-SdC, VdlP
(2014): SJpdP-Astorga
(2015): Astorga-SdC
(2016) May Pamplona-Moratinos; Sept.:Burgos-SdC
(2016): August/Sept: Camino San Olav (Burgos-Covarubbias), Burgos-Sarria
(2017): May: Portuguese; Sept: Pamplona-SdC
@wisepilgrim : Your idea is priceworthy. I am enjoying your CF app.

FWIW, there's a short "Camino" straight south starting in Burgos, called the Camino San Olav. It is of interest to me as a Norwegien, as it involves a Norwegian viking princess and a marriage some 8-900 years ago.

I have written a guide about it, and you can have it for free here:


It is a 3-4 days walk, some ca. 64 kms, it is a great and easy walk, and you can extend it to the famous Santo Domingo de Silos monestary/village and its singing monks:



This is a Camino not much walked. It is a pity, because if you're on the CF, this is a super opportunity to walk in peace for a few days, off the beaten trail. The lodgings and people along this route are very friendly and welcoming to pilgrims.

Since my guide is here on the Forum for free, please feel free to use it for free to your liking in order to make it (Camino San Olav) accessible to more walkers. I appreciate your initiative, and applaud it.
 
Last edited:

wisepilgrim

Guidebook Author
Year of past OR future Camino
Many
@wisepilgrim : Your idea is priceworthy. I am enjoying your CF app.

FWIW, there's a short "Camino" straight south starting in Burgos, called the Camino San Olav. It is of interest to me as a Norwegien, as it involves a Norwegian viking princess and a marriage some 8-900 years ago.

I have written a guide about it, and you can have it for free here:


It is a 3-4 days walk, some ca. 64 kms, it is a great and easy walk, and you can extend it to the famous Santo Domingo de Silos monestary/village and its singing monks:



This is a Camino not much walked. It is a pity, because if you're on the CF, this is a super opportunity to walk in peace for a few days, off the beaten trail. The lodgings and people along this route are very friendly and welcoming to pilgrims.

Since my guide is here on the Forum for free, please feel free to use it for free to your liking in order to make it (Camino San Olav) accessible to more walkers. I appreciate your initiative, and applaud it.
Well with your blessing, I will do exactly this. Thanks for the offer.
 
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Year of past OR future Camino
2019
Indeed I have already folded Laurie's Invierno content into an app (link below)
BTW, the Invierno will get a healthy dose of new photography (at least the bit inside Galicia) next week.
Wonderful news, Michael. Well done!!
And wishing you a joyful time out there next week, gathering beautiful images to share. (Envious? Moi??)

Yes, it has been submitted and is pending approval. Here is the link, which should start working soon:
Also very good news!

Any other routes to consider?
The Viejo arm of the Olvidado (Pamplona-Aguilar de Campoo) is 1st on my list to walk in realtime. I think Laurie linked to our virtual version upthread? If not just let me know and I'll send the link to you.
Thanks for the offer.
I can add a couple of variants to the start of this from Santo Domingo de Silos. It would be an ideal side trip for anyone on the Frances.
 

alexwalker

Forever Pilgrim
Year of past OR future Camino
(2009): Camino Frances
(2011): Sevilla-Salamanca, VdlP
(2012): Salamanca-SdC, VdlP
(2014): SJpdP-Astorga
(2015): Astorga-SdC
(2016) May Pamplona-Moratinos; Sept.:Burgos-SdC
(2016): August/Sept: Camino San Olav (Burgos-Covarubbias), Burgos-Sarria
(2017): May: Portuguese; Sept: Pamplona-SdC
I can add a couple of variants to the start of this from Santo Domingo de Silos. It would be an ideal side trip for anyone on the Frances.
Just a short remark: The route of San Olav is marked in the direction : from Burgos - to Covarrubias. The markings are quite small, My guide is describing that. I would find walking it in the oppsite without GPS tracks or similar quite difficult. But that's me. ;)
 
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