Cyclists

[Denzil]

A number of cyclists do not get that walkers are to given priority on the Camino. Many do not have a bell or use words to warn of their approach, often at frightening speeds. I met an older pilgrim yesterday who had been knocked down and ended up in a ditch. The cyclist then proceeded to abuse her for being in his way.
I’ve experienced groups of cyclists tearing past shouting to be heard by one another which seriously impacts on one’s enjoyment of walking the Camino.
E bikes have made things worse as there are a number of new cyclists who do not have the necessary skills to undertake the terrain or the experience of interacting with walkers.
I suggest that it become mandatory for all bikes ridden on the Camino be fitted with a bell and cyclists are reminded that pedestrians have priority on all Camino tracks.

 

[Flatlander]

cyclists are reminded that pedestrians have priority on all Camino tracks.

Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.

Thank you

 

[Grousedoctor]

As a cyclist and one who has ridden a Cami o, the VDLP, I have posted almost identical sentiments as this above. One reason I chose the VDLP was because of the light foot traffic. I ride the CF in September and expect very different conditions that will require added vigilance on my part. I remain convinced that there is room for everyone, walkers and cyclists, on the Camino. In fact, the Church sanctions pilgrimage to Santiago by bike. However, written or not, there are rules that need to be followed for everyone’s safety.

1. Walkers always have the priority on the trail. They are being approached from the rear and even with a warning, may not hear it. Caution needs to be exercised.

2. Cyclists must signal their approach. A bell should be required and used, but one may have to verbally announce themselves as well.

3. Speed must be appropriate for the trail conditions. It’s not simply a matter of the terrain, but more importantly refers to the number of people on the trail with you. Slow down when passing walkers. Seems pretty elementary, but good judgement isn’t always practiced.

4. Inexperienced riders put everyone at risk. Biking a Camino isn’t easier than walking. Plus, before taking on the challenge, be sure to have the requisite skills to manage both your bike and to safeguard those around you.

5. Finally, the Camino isn’t a race course. One can cycle reflectively just as walkers do. However, if it’s adventure riding you’re looking for, the Camino should come off your list.

Unfortunately, those needing to
hear comments like these and those of the OP, aren’t tuned in here in the first place. There are responsible cyclists in the Camino and hopefully that’s who most of you will encounter. Buen Camino.

 

[C clearly]

I agree with your suggestions for cyclist behaviour. Are you aware that many (most?) of those speeding cyclists are local people out on their local trails?

 

[Anniesantiago]

This is a common complaint and I imagine you can find threads on it if you do a search.

 

[karinkaw]

I felt there was more of a problem on weekends and the most aggressive appeared not to be pilgrims, but locals out using the same trail. I always shout a "thanks for the bell" when it's used.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.

Thank you

Bicyclists are appreciated if they take the roads. The bikes tear up the dirt trails and ARE a danger to pedestrians, imo. I suppose the evidence is in the pilgrims who are injured each year by bicyclists.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Today walking into Manzanares I discovered that they were holding a major off road cycle race on the same bit of track that I was trying to walk on.

I thought that I saw hundreds of bikes but talking to another pilgrim tonight who said that he talked to some of the organisers that there was actually 4,000 riders competing today.

It was impossible to walk and so I called an early lunch stop and ate my lunch just off the track. At one point they seemed to be thinning out and so I ask a competitor who crashed in front of where I was sitting how many more there were. He said "it is almost over there is only about a hundred behind me".

This was a good reminder that no one owns the tracks that we call Caminos. We are guests in this marvelous country and if they want to schedule a major event on part of a Camino then that is their choice.

I lost a good hour of walking time while waiting for the pack to thin out but restarted too early and had to jump out of the way of one of the tail ender's and hurt my foot so I called it a day and caught a taxi here.

BTW, being competition bikes, none of them had a bell.

 

[Lindsay53]

Couple of weeks ago I saw a mob of about a dozen cyclists - not pilgrims but appeared to be local riders - tearing through a village then stop on the outskirts to piss beside the road, right outside peoples houses. No respect for anyone, pilgrims or residents it seems.

 

[gailsweb]

I guess this is a salient reminder to keep alert (and at least one ear free) on the camino (and indeed walking anywhere) it can be extremely dangerous wearing headphones and not having the ability to hear bikes approaching whether they travel with or without warning bells - the same applies to cars, dogs and the many potential hazards around you - even tractors can pop up out of nowhere at times!

 

[Denzil]

As a cyclist and one who has ridden a Cami o, the VDLP, I have posted almost identical sentiments as this above. One reason I chose the VDLP was because of the light foot traffic. I ride the CF in September and expect very different conditions that will require added vigilance on my part. I remain convinced that there is room for everyone, walkers and cyclists, on the Camino. In fact, the Church sanctions pilgrimage to Santiago by bike. However, written or not, there are rules that need to be followed for everyone’s safety.

1. Walkers always have the priority on the trail. They are being approached from the rear and even with a warning, may not hear it. Caution needs to be exercised.

2. Cyclists must signal their approach. A bell should be required and used, but one may have to verbally announce themselves as well.

3. Speed must be appropriate for the trail conditions. It’s not simply a matter of the terrain, but more importantly refers to the number of people on the trail with you. Slow down when passing walkers. Seems pretty elementary, but good judgement isn’t always practiced.

4. Inexperienced riders put everyone at risk. Biking a Camino isn’t easier than walking. Plus, before taking on the challenge, be sure to have the requisite skills to manage both your bike and to safeguard those around you.

5. Finally, the Camino isn’t a race course. One can cycle reflectively just as walkers do. However, if it’s adventure riding you’re looking for, the Camino should come off your list.

Unfortunately, those needing to
hear comments like these and those of the OP, aren’t tuned in here in the first place. There are responsible cyclists in the Camino and hopefully that’s who most of you will encounter. Buen Camino.

that is a really well written and excellent post. I agree with everything you say. It would be good if your post could be read by all cyclists wanting to ride a camino

 

[Denzil]

This is a common complaint and I imagine you can find threads on it if you do a search.

I looked but couldn’t find anything. I’m hoping it’s more a recommendation for something to be done about this serious issue

 

[Denzil]

I agree with your suggestions for cyclist behaviour. Are you aware that many (most?) of those speeding cyclists are local people out on their local trails?

I thought some might be, maybe the local councils could take it up. Provide alternative trails for that

 

[Flatlander]

Bicyclists are appreciated if they take the roads. The bikes tear up the dirt trails and ARE a danger to pedestrians, imo. I suppose the evidence is in the pilgrims who are injured each year by bicyclists.

I posed my question for the OP, and despite them responding to the thread it has not been answered.
(For the record, there are motorways, some Plazas, Private Property and precious few other places where it is illegal for me to take my bike).

Given that the CF is some 800+km long, with numerous variants, encompassing everything from single person wide rocky trails to urban areas and stretches along main roads, I am bemused by the notion of a single "bicyclists should take to the roads" assertion. My first question would be "what constitutes a road?"
That is not a smartass question.
If it is legal to cycle on the Camino the question then, is less about bikes and more about the people on those bikes.

That brings us to the nub of the issue, in my opinion - the behaviour of people.

As someone who rides a bike I find it offensive that someone thinks it is perfectly alright to suggest to me where I can ride that bike, not based on my behaviour, but on the behaviour of others.

Here's another smartass question. Do we have any stats on injuries caused by cyclists to Pilgrims on the Camino?
I am not trying to play it down in any way but I believe that regulation (enforced and self) is most effective when based on reality and not perception.

Speaking of perception, fear is a perception. This forum is full of people posting directly or indirectly about their fears and making decisions based on them. Just because someone is afraid of bikes is no more a reason to advocate for their removal than it would be to advocate for the removal of dogs as just one example.

The harm that bikes can do to some trails is a hot topic in some countries at the moment but I'm not aware of any controversy in Spain.
In all honesty, given the ever increasing numbers of Pilgrims it's far likely that pedestrian traffic is doing the most harm.
I'd be wary of introducing environmental issues as an argument for discriminating against bikes what with lots of international air travel and baggage hauling as common topics on these fora.
I'm waiting, with interest, to see the development of a "Green" Camino movement.

My personal theory, is that there is too much "them and us" in any debate that involves cyclists. Interestingly, that debate seems to be very much centred on the English speaking world, and ironically, is not something that is prominent in Spain amongst the Spanish.
Drivers hate cyclists. Pedestrians hate cyclists. I ride a bike. I drive. I walk. I must really hate myself!
Seriously, though, such discrimination is a serious problem, especially when people bring their own perceptions and understandings to Spain (and Portugal) from foreign places.

Even the title of this thread is simply "Cyclists". How many people opened this thread expecting it to be a happy, joyful thread about the wonderful people to be met who ride bikes?

I find the idea that because I have a bicycle, it's acceptable to be told that it would be appreciated if I take to the roads chilling. It is the first step on a journey that brings us to unpleasant places.
Who is next to be discouraged from following a Camino? Those on group tours? Those who use baggage services? Non Christians?
In a general sense, there is no shortage of evidence, of anti cycling behaviour on the roads of certain countries, flames fanned, I believe, by notions such as this.
I have no problem at all (and have posted here before on the very topic) of introducing guidelines for both people on bikes and people on foot as well as devising rules and laws. Where, I do have a problem, however, is people deciding what I can and can't do (and where I can do it) based on their personal preferences.

Anyways, at the very end of this discussion it has to be faced that anyone advocating for what can and can't be done on a Camino is most likely a foreigner dictating to locals what they can and can't do.
I can't think of too many places in the world where that approach will go down well.

As with most things to do with planning a Camino I suggest strongly that we leave a lot of mental baggage at home and make the best of what is in front of us. How many of us planning a weekend away would scour for information on the best hotel to stay in are happy and grateful to wander up to a small village and take a bunk in a shared dorm?

 

[good_old_shoes]

I was run over by a bike last year, no chance to avoid it. It was a young local who apparently didn't expect a pilgrim in the path in the evening.

I was lucky and wasn't injured, but the young man on the bike was. I was very angry but felt sorry for him also.

Despite being run over I still have no problem whatsoever with cyclists using the Camino too.

All I ask for is: please slow down and don't hope that the tired pilgrim with a 15kg+ backpack and a hurt foot will jump into the right direction quickly enough because you shouted something from behind, just so you can drive by at full speed. I don't have eyes in the back and I am tired and slow, I can't jump into the bushes as fast as you want me to.

Please slow down, so that you can stop if needed. That's what I do when I'm on a bike and pass by people walking. Just today I did that and the jogger was so confused that I stopped to let him pass. He expected me to speed by while he needed to jump off the path. That was a bit sad.

Of course those who would need to read all this won't.

But one can wish for things, though, so that's my wish.

Please be careful and respect others. It doesn't matter if they travel on foot, by bike, on horseback or even by bus.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

please slow down and don't hope that the tired pilgrim with a 15kg+ backpack and a hurt foot will jump into the right direction quickly enough

I have never ridden a mountain bike but I have ridden an enduro motorcycle out on bush tracks and while sometimes the speeds differ the basic techniques remain similar.

In certain situations it is much safer to go faster than it is to go slower. Try taking a vertical drop without power on and see what happens. Anyway, a mountain bike rider that rides well is not going to want to ride around at a snails pace just in case someone might be around the next corner.

Part of the attraction is the adrenal generated by having to make split second decisions. A good rider will get "in the groove" where she rides without conscious thought.

I understand this. Back in my mis-spent youth I loved riding so fast that there was no time to think. It was a form of meditation for me as it took me out of this world. Of course the consequences can be rather drastic if you get it wrong.

Anyway..... Back on topic, as others have said, it is pointless as foreigners to complain about local usage and customs. That is the highest form of arrogance. Best we develop methods of keeping our selves safe when encountering cyclists.

BTW, do you really walk with a 15kg pack! My body complains when I try carrying anything over about 8kg. I have just had to jettison some unnecessary stuff to get my (dry) pack weight down to 5-5.5kg.

 

[good_old_shoes]

BTW, do you really walk with a 15kg pack! My body complains when I try carrying anything over about 8kg. I have just had to jettison some unnecessary stuff to get my (dry) pack weight down to 5-5.5kg.

When I started last year it was only 9kg including camping gear, food and water.

Somehow it got heavier the further I walked. In Conques it was "suddenly" 13kg (I was embarrassed because I had already taken out a full sized melon and a bottle of apple cidre before weighing it)and when the accident happened just before Santiago I also had cat food ect. in the pack and the cat in his carrier as hand luggage, so I guess it was around 15kg total at the time. I had just walked ~40kms that day, also, and three and a half months since my start, walking on a broken foot for hundreds of kms at that point, and also just had had covid. I guess the young cyclist didn't take all this into account when he hoped for the best, shouting from behind. Of course he couldn't know all that.

Doesn't matter. It was an important experience, and I am now even more careful when it comes to jumping off the trail to let cyclists pass. I think the young man who ended up bleeding in a fence and off his bike learned something, just as I did.

I was just happy the kitten wasn't hurt. Otherwise the story might have ended differently!

 

[Sidknee]

I find the idea that because I have a bicycle, it's acceptable to be told that it would be appreciated if I take to the roads chilling.

Don’t parts of the CF already direct bike riders onto different routes on certain paths? Might be time to grab a jumper…

Sadly the behaviours of a minority cause a range of issues and problems that get widely broadcast as “cyclists” and a stereotype then pervades. Any discusión on the topic then gets pushed to the extremes by the passionate.

Maybe we all need to take ownership of the issue, walkers leave space for riders to get past and when that isn’t possible and you hear a bell step off the path for a couple of seconds. Bike riders, slow down, you aren’t going to get dropped from the Vuelta peloton or miss the time cut for tomorrows “race”. if you have a bell use it.

Above all let’s try to be respectful and patient of each other, no one wants to see anyone injured in anyway.

Buen Camino “ring-ring”

 

[darealdeal77]

Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.

Thank you

I think a person’s word should be good enough! During our 2014 Camino we encountered the same, my wife was nearly knocked down by a group of cyclists who obviously owned the dangerous downhill road (mountain bikes). Maybe on my next Camino I video tape the scene so that the public can see! There’s a thing called Respect! They should use it sometime, and adhere to bike laws, like informing the pedestrians they are arriving and passing on the left! It’s the Right Thing to do!

 

[digitalgerry]

As a cyclist and one who has ridden a Cami o, the VDLP, I have posted almost identical sentiments as this above. One reason I chose the VDLP was because of the light foot traffic. I ride the CF in September and expect very different conditions that will require added vigilance on my part. I remain convinced that there is room for everyone, walkers and cyclists, on the Camino. In fact, the Church sanctions pilgrimage to Santiago by bike. However, written or not, there are rules that need to be followed for everyone’s safety.

1. Walkers always have the priority on the trail. They are being approached from the rear and even with a warning, may not hear it. Caution needs to be exercised.

2. Cyclists must signal their approach. A bell should be required and used, but one may have to verbally announce themselves as well.

3. Speed must be appropriate for the trail conditions. It’s not simply a matter of the terrain, but more importantly refers to the number of people on the trail with you. Slow down when passing walkers. Seems pretty elementary, but good judgement isn’t always practiced.

4. Inexperienced riders put everyone at risk. Biking a Camino isn’t easier than walking. Plus, before taking on the challenge, be sure to have the requisite skills to manage both your bike and to safeguard those around you.

5. Finally, the Camino isn’t a race course. One can cycle reflectively just as walkers do. However, if it’s adventure riding you’re looking for, the Camino should come off your list.

Unfortunately, those needing to
hear comments like these and those of the OP, aren’t tuned in here in the first place. There are responsible cyclists in the Camino and hopefully that’s who most of you will encounter. Buen Camino.

Sorry whats VDLP?

 

[El Cascayal]

I am a prior long distance cyclist/roadie. When we rode, we learned to share the road and protect pedestrians announcing yourself with an “on your left…, bikes.
Twice on the Portugues where bikes whizz by with impunity I have once been thrown in the ditch, and just last month on the Pontevedra ancient bridge, when I was hugging the right side, got run over by a clueless cyclist. The greasy wheel tattoo was on my right calf, thankfully no serious injury. The cyclist, once he recovered, kept going without glancing back. This is dangerous behavior and many are totally oblivious to their surroundings.
Bike Camino etiquette should be a requirement for bicigrinos, ring ring AND voice.

 

[El Cascayal]

Sorry whats VDLP?

Via de la Plata.

 

[digitalgerry]

I'm planning for 2024 and looking at the EuroVelo 3 route. I suspect parts of it weave long the main CF route, but would be good to know how much does.

I am planning to cycle with a friend (I imagine freinds cycling can add to the problem, but the bell is essential) We plan to cycle from Burgos to SDC.

 

[good_old_shoes]

walkers leave space for riders to get past and when that isn’t possible and you hear a bell step off the path of a couple of seconds.

I would have loved to do that, but it wasn't possible. I did jump to the side immediately but it wasn't the side the cyclist had hoped for. There wasn't time to turn around and check which way he was coming from either, so we collided.

It is not always possible to jump off the path in time, especially if the cyclists speed is too high.

If there are any universally/internationally accepted rules how to react to a bike coming from behind at high speed, please let me know.

So far I have been advised to jump left, jump right and not move at all, and whatever I did of those three there were still cyclists who yelled at me because for them I did it wrong.

I still do like cyclists, I have met many very friendly ones, and I have travelled by bike myself. I often walk on bike paths on my long distance routes and am always happy to meet trekking bikers.

The funny thing is that I never encountered problems as a walker on official bike lanes, only as a walker on shared paths or hiking trails.

 

[Sidknee]

I'm planning for 2024 and looking at the EuroVelo 3 route. I suspect parts of it weave long the main CF route, but would be good to know how much does.

I am planning to cycle with a friend (I imagine freinds cycling can add to the problem, but the bell is essential) We plan to cycle from Burgos to SDC.

Digitalgerry, there is a very good website that covers most of that detail. You’re probably across it

EuroVelo 3: Camino Francés

en.eurovelo.com

 

[digitalgerry]

Digitalgerry, there is a very good website that covers most of that detail. You’re probably across it

EuroVelo 3: Camino Francés

en.eurovelo.com

Yes and have dowloaded the profile, and see it follows alot of the route, but mainly roads.

 

[Denzil]

I was run over by a bike last year, no chance to avoid it. It was a young local who apparently didn't expect a pilgrim in the path in the evening.

I was lucky and wasn't injured, but the young man on the bike was. I was very angry but felt sorry for him also.

Despite being run over I still have no problem whatsoever with cyclists using the Camino too.

All I ask for is: please slow down and don't hope that the tired pilgrim with a 15kg+ backpack and a hurt foot will jump into the right direction quickly enough because you shouted something from behind, just so you can drive by at full speed. I don't have eyes in the back and I am tired and slow, I can't jump into the bushes as fast as you want me to.

Please slow down, so that you can stop if needed. That's what I do when I'm on a bike and pass by people walking. Just today I did that and the jogger was so confused that I stopped to let him pass. He expected me to speed by while he needed to jump off the path. That was a bit sad.

Of course those who would need to read all this won't.

But one can wish for things, though, so that's my wish.

Please be careful and respect others. It doesn't matter if they travel on foot, by bike, on horseback or even by bus.

Champion response agree agree - it’s just about making it work for all users

 

[lt56ny]

Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.

Thank you

I met an older pilgrim yesterday who had been knocked down and ended up in a ditch. The cyclist then proceeded to abuse her for being in his way.

Do you think that the woman lied to the OP? Just wondering.

One reason I chose the VDLP was because of the light foot traffic.

I walked the VDLP and saw very few cyclists. I do not ever remember having an issue on that camino.
My personal opinion is that cyclists should be only allowed to take the road and not ride on the camino paths. But I know that will never happen. How can you tell the Spanish citizens whose tax dollars pay for the camino infrastructure that they can't use it. But for cyclists coming from other parts of the world, why ride on the camino. especially the CF, when there are many other places to ride that are far less traveled and most likely prettier.

E bikes have made things worse as there are a number of new cyclists who do not have the necessary skills to undertake the terrain or the experience of interacting with walkers.

WIthout a doubt I think E bikes are extremely dangerous. The E bike does need to be banned. They are heavy and they can go really fast. I think an E bike accident on the camino resulting in a death of a pilgrim is inevitable.
When I go to New York and DC to visit my kids, especially in New York there are E bikes wizzing by from all directions, between the Uber Eats and their competition to the people just riding their E Bikes it makes for a stressful time crossing a street.

 

[K_Lynn]

I never had a problem with bikes, I could hear them coming up behind and would move to the right side of the path so they could pass. I think almost everyone called out or rang their bell as they were approaching. I did notice that a lot of people did not here the bike or the bell and would suddenly panic and zigzag trying to decide which side to go to.

What drove me mad was watching walkers walk 5 abreast on wider paths or roads and then they would all zigzag when a car or bike approached. I imagine these people are also the ones that stop at the bottom of the escalator to rummage in their bag while people are piling up behind them.

 

[lt56ny]

Sorry whats VDLP?

The camino that starts in Sevilla. The Via de la Plata. You can take it to Astorga and then on to Santiago, or you can continue on to the Sanabria which gives the pilgrim a continued quiet and solitary walk to Santiago. It is over 1,000 kilometers. Of the different caminos I have walked the VDLP is more of a mental test than a physical one. I hope to walk it again one day.

 

[TrvlDad1]

Since the Tour de France starts in Bilbao July 1, I would expect more inspired local cyclists this year, especially on the Norte.

 

[lt56ny]

I posed my question for the OP, and despite them responding to the thread it has not been answered.
(For the record, there are motorways, some Plazas, Private Property and precious few other places where it is illegal for me to take my bike).

Given that the CF is some 800+km long, with numerous variants, encompassing everything from single person wide rocky trails to urban areas and stretches along main roads, I am bemused by the notion of a single "bicyclists should take to the roads" assertion. My first question would be "what constitutes a road?"
That is not a smartass question.
If it is legal to cycle on the Camino the question then, is less about bikes and more about the people on those bikes.

That brings us to the nub of the issue, in my opinion - the behaviour of people.

As someone who rides a bike I find it offensive that someone thinks it is perfectly alright to suggest to me where I can ride that bike, not based on my behaviour, but on the behaviour of others.

Here's another smartass question. Do we have any stats on injuries caused by cyclists to Pilgrims on the Camino?
I am not trying to play it down in any way but I believe that regulation (enforced and self) is most effective when based on reality and not perception.

Speaking of perception, fear is a perception. This forum is full of people posting directly or indirectly about their fears and making decisions based on them. Just because someone is afraid of bikes is no more a reason to advocate for their removal than it would be to advocate for the removal of dogs as just one example.

The harm that bikes can do to some trails is a hot topic in some countries at the moment but I'm not aware of any controversy in Spain.
In all honesty, given the ever increasing numbers of Pilgrims it's far likely that pedestrian traffic is doing the most harm.
I'd be wary of introducing environmental issues as an argument for discriminating against bikes what with lots of international air travel and baggage hauling as common topics on these fora.
I'm waiting, with interest, to see the development of a "Green" Camino movement.

My personal theory, is that there is too much "them and us" in any debate that involves cyclists. Interestingly, that debate seems to be very much centred on the English speaking world, and ironically, is not something that is prominent in Spain amongst the Spanish.
Drivers hate cyclists. Pedestrians hate cyclists. I ride a bike. I drive. I walk. I must really hate myself!
Seriously, though, such discrimination is a serious problem, especially when people bring their own perceptions and understandings to Spain (and Portugal) from foreign places.

Even the title of this thread is simply "Cyclists". How many people opened this thread expecting it to be a happy, joyful thread about the wonderful people to be met who ride bikes?

I find the idea that because I have a bicycle, it's acceptable to be told that it would be appreciated if I take to the roads chilling. It is the first step on a journey that brings us to unpleasant places.
Who is next to be discouraged from following a Camino? Those on group tours? Those who use baggage services? Non Christians?
In a general sense, there is no shortage of evidence, of anti cycling behaviour on the roads of certain countries, flames fanned, I believe, by notions such as this.
I have no problem at all (and have posted here before on the very topic) of introducing guidelines for both people on bikes and people on foot as well as devising rules and laws. Where, I do have a problem, however, is people deciding what I can and can't do (and where I can do it) based on their personal preferences.

Anyways, at the very end of this discussion it has to be faced that anyone advocating for what can and can't be done on a Camino is most likely a foreigner dictating to locals what they can and can't do.
I can't think of too many places in the world where that approach will go down well.

As with most things to do with planning a Camino I suggest strongly that we leave a lot of mental baggage at home and make the best of what is in front of us. How many of us planning a weekend away would scour for information on the best hotel to stay in are happy and grateful to wander up to a small village and take a bunk in a shared dorm?

Everyone has a right to their own opinion and I quoted something you wrote and if you see that first you know my opinion. You are laying as much guilt and shame on pilgrims as you believe the pilgrims who are anti cyclists are laying on you. The statement you made that Pilgrims cause more damage to the camino paths than cyclists is a silly one. Of course they do. Looking at the Pilgrim Office stats 93.44% of people who get a Compostela are pilgrims. There are countless thousands of local cyclists who ride that also add to the wear and tear. One reason I love walking in bad weather especially on the weekends is I know there will be less bicycles on the road.
You said people put their fears from "western" countries onto cyclists, well your statement that there doesn't appear to be a problem with cyclists among Spaniards, and to quote you:

Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.

Thank you

Anyways, at the very end of this discussion it has to be faced that anyone advocating for what can and can't be done on a Camino is most likely a foreigner dictating to locals what they can and can't do.

This sounds like advocating to me.
The bottom line is there are jerks and idiots who drive cars, who walk down a path and who ride a bike. On the camino the strongest likelihood of injury will not come from one pilgrim running into another. Whoops I just made an assumption!!!!!!
I would write more but it is time to make breakfast for my wife.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I had just walked ~40kms that day

Wow, I am in awe of you . And with a kitten as well. Hat tip to you sir!

 

[stevewarne]

I cycled from Porto to Santiago last May. I had a bell that wasn't loud enough, and a woman on the path suggested I yell "ding ding" when I approached walkers. It seemed funny but that's exactly what I did. The problem was that so many walkers wore headphones, or walked two or more abreast in deep conversation that they still didn't hear me. I would stop, get off my bike, and try to politely and safely walk it through them. But even as careful as I could be, there were a few walkers who would be startled and jump, trip, and/or fall when they finally saw me. I believe that cyclists have the primary responsibility to ensure the safety of those they pass, but walkers can help to ensure their own safety by being aware of their surroundings. I believe they call it situational awareness.

 

[Flatlander]

I think a person’s word should be good enough!

There was no intention to doubt someone's word.
I have asked (and am still waiting) for evidence that backs up

A number of cyclists do not get that walkers are to given priority on the Camino

I believe that to be incorrect, open to misinterpretation and potentially dangerous when people take the "law" into their own hands.

a group of cyclists who obviously owned the dangerous downhill road

With respect, in any debate I find it unhelpful to assume what is going on in someone else's head. It rarely leads to understanding.

we learned to share the road and protect pedestrians announcing yourself with an “on your left…, bikes.

With respect, ss someone with a fair few kms under my belt on a bike this is something that really bugs me, especially on a route like a Camino with people speaking numerous languages and understanding fewer.
"on the left" is cycling jargon. Expecting a non cyclist to understand it is veering towards arrogance. Expecting a Korean (insert non English speaking country of choice here) to understand it is optimistic.
It's not just the understanding, there's also the processing of it and the fact that it is a voice coming from behind. Is it an instruction to go left? It can be disorienting and "panic jumps" can be the result.

I ride a bike and it annoys the hell out of me, especially as my instinctive reaction is to go the wrong way.

Do you think that the woman lied to the OP? Just wondering.

I dislike that language, intensely.
As above, I asked for evidence that pedestrians have priority over cyclists on a Camino. It's a pretty bold statement, and wrong, I believe.
A collision involving a cyclist and pedestrian does nothing to prove or refute the question.

My personal opinion is that cyclists should be only allowed to take the road and not ride on the camino paths.

Could you define what you mean by road?
This is "The Camino" just outside Hontanas. Is this a road or do you think bicycles should be banned?
If bikes should be banned should farm machinery and local drivers also be banned?

How can you tell the Spanish citizens whose tax dollars pay for the camino

I'd like to point out that taxes are paid to the Spanish Government (when they're paid ) in Euros.

But for cyclists coming from other parts of the world, why ride on the camino. especially the CF, when there are many other places to ride that are far less traveled and most likely prettier.

I would imagine for much the same reasons as most here want to walk those same paths. Being amongst like minded people and an excellent infrastructure.

The E bike does need to be banned. They are heavy and they can go really fast. I think an E bike accident on the camino resulting in a death of a pilgrim is inevitable.
When I go to New York and DC to visit my kids, especially in New York there are E bikes wizzing by from all directions, between the Uber Eats and their competition to the people just riding their E Bikes it makes for a stressful time crossing a street.

Thank you for this contribution which makes my point better than I could.

Comparing US e-bikes (subject to different rules and regulations than EU ones) and their use in cities such as NY City and Washington to their use in Northern Spain is the perfect example of of someone carrying some mental baggage from their home country.

E-bikes are responsible for a boom amongst older and infirm cyclists and to ban them would be a huge retrograde step for mobility and sociability.
In some countries, they are being actively promoted as a means to a greener method of transport.

I'd encourage you to think a little deeper on the matter.

A quick solution to overcrowding on the CF would be to ban the use of baggage transport. In many cases it would affect the same group of people affected by a ban on E-bikes. I have a feeling that that would not be a proposal welcomed here.

At the end of the day all this comes down to people's behaviour and the perception of that.

It would be good to be able to have a respectful discussion.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion and I quoted something you wrote and if you see that first you know my opinion. You are laying as much guilt and shame on pilgrims as you believe the pilgrims who are anti cyclists are laying on you. The statement you made that Pilgrims cause more damage to the camino paths than cyclists is a silly one. Of course they do. Looking at the Pilgrim Office stats 93.44% of people who get a Compostela are pilgrims. There are countless thousands of local cyclists who ride that also add to the wear and tear. One reason I love walking in bad weather especially on the weekends is I know there will be less bicycles on the road.
You said people put their fears from "western" countries onto cyclists, well your statement that there doesn't appear to be a problem with cyclists among Spaniards, and to quote you:


This sounds like advocating to me.
The bottom line is there are jerks and idiots who drive cars, who walk down a path and who ride a bike. On the camino the strongest likelihood of injury will not come from one pilgrim running into another. Whoops I just made an assumption!!!!!!
I would write more but it is time to make breakfast for my wife.

I'm sorry, I don't comprehend this. I can't help but think that things are being read into my posts that are not there.

a woman on the path suggested I yell "ding ding" when I approached walkers.

Smart lady!
In different places different things work.
The use of a bell is perfectly normal and acceptable in some countries, but taken as a sign of aggression in others. On a route like a Camino with an international crowd, it's all the more tricky.

On a side note, my first time cycling in Italy was becoming very stressed out by aggressive drivers beeping me before they overtook me. Living in the Netherlands at the time, the only time I had a car horn directed at me was if I was doing something I shouldn't be doing. Cue frustration in Italy.
Thinking on it over the first couple of days, the "aggression" I was interpreting wasn't backed up by, for example, close passes, verbal abuse, window wiper squirts and all the other things drivers can do to people on bikes. In fact many times the aggressors waved at me as they went past!
As it turns out, once I switched my head around to realise that what they were doing was giving me a friendly toot to warn me of their advance my cycling became a whole lot more enjoyable.

 

[OlyCat]

Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.

Thank you

I’ve been walking the Camino Francés since May 5th, and of all the 100’s of bikers that have flown by, only a handful have given any warning. It is very difficult to hear them coming from behind, and I was almost knocked over myself, it was a frightening experience. I always thank those who have given a warning.

 

[Flatlander]

In certain situations it is much safer to go faster than it is to go slower.

That's very true, sometimes especially so on a loaded bike.

In general, I think there may be a lot of misunderstanding here.
I know of no person on a bike who wants to crash into someone.
The best thing a person on foot can do is to stand their ground, not suddenly move left or right.
There's the natural bias that an unpleasant situation is remembered and told far more than the many pleasant interactions.

I'm planning for 2024 and looking at the EuroVelo 3 route. I suspect parts of it weave long the main CF route, but would be good to know how much does.

You may find some inspiration and information on CGOAB
Personally, my experience of EV routes is that they are not always complete (your section is) but thet often exhibit all the qualities of a route designed by committee. Spain is a wonderful place for a bike adventure and no-one should be shy about veering off an "official" route and following their own desires.

CycleTravel is an excellent planner for multi day bike tours.

Good Luck & Buen Camino

 

[Flatlander]

I’ve been walking the Camino Francés since May 5th, and of all the 100’s of bikers that have flown by, only a handful have given any warning. It is very difficult to hear them coming from behind, and I was almost knocked over myself, it was a frightening experience. I always thank those who have given a warning.

With respect, that is not evidence that Pedestrians have priority over cyclists.

 

[Denzil]

Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.

Thank you

I didn’t realize what a sensitive issue this is. My concern is for safety of both walkers and cyclists. Evidence, I’ve read the following on a cycle tour site: Cycling Centuries:

• Research the terrain: The terrain along the Camino de Santiago varies from flat to mountainous, but there are some difficult stretches with steep slopes and mountain passes. Even if you plan to ride on a road or touring bike, not a mountain bike - you'll have to cycle through small villages and towns over some larger cobblestone streets. If you raide along the actual trail, be aware that walking pilgrims have priority, and some sections are not appropriate for cyclists at all.

I’m on the CF enjoying walking and interacting with the vast majority of cyclists

 

[karinkaw]

I must admit the word "ban" does not seem to fit the spirit of the camino. I just completed 250 km and yes there were bikes, yes I stepped aside (also for groups of pilgrims walking 3 abreast faster than I ), but those moments never diminished the awesome experience and I hope negative comments never discourage anyone from doing the Camino however they are able.

 

[Flatlander]

I didn’t realize what a sensitive issue this is.

It is quite sensitive when people assert something as fact.
It can breed resentment (for no reason) and result in people taking the law into their own hands.
Here is a recent UK case which is horrifying given that the poor victim was about as far away from the stereotypical "cyclist" as it is possible to be.

From my own experience, I have been run off the road, threatened, had dogs set on me, and had trucks "roll coal" at me (flood the engine, hit the accelerator to smother me in black smoke) for no other reason than I was on a bike.

I make no attempt to defend the indefensible actions of some cyclists.

. Evidence, I’ve read the following on a cycle tour site: Cycling Centuries:

So no, then.

This was the assertion:

A number of cyclists do not get that walkers are to given priority on the Camino

The Camino is over 800 km long. In the photo I included in a previous post there is no issue with priority.
As a cyclist I am on the right. Convention is that pedestrians should be on the left. I can pass.
In the event that the pedestrian is on the right I can execute an overtaking manoeuvre. Again no issue.

But a pedestrian in the middle of the road? That's different. As is a group spreading across the road. In that case do pedestrians have priority?

These things are complicated and deserve to be teased out.

 

[MARSKA]

The Camino is over 800 km long. In the photo I included in a previous post there is no issue with priority.
As a cyclist I am on the right. Convention is that pedestrians should be on the left. I can pass.
In the event that the pedestrian is on the right I can execute an overtaking manoeuvre. Again no issue.

 

[MARSKA]

Whoops- mis-step on the quote. To be clear, when coming up behind a pedestrian, do you pass them on the pedestrian's right side? Or left side?

 

[good_old_shoes]

As a cyclist I am on the right. Convention is that pedestrians should be on the left. I can pass.
In the event that the pedestrian is on the right I can execute an overtaking manoeuvre. Again no issue.

The problem is that while that might be the rule you personally know and stick to, it is not the norm.

I've walked on the left and been yelled at by cyclists to walk on the right, and I've walked on the right and have been yelled at to walk on the left. I've even read many times that you should simply stay where you are when a bike approaches from behind and not move at all. So I still have no idea which side of the path to jump to to avoid being run over.

After having been run over once already, I certainly will not freeze and hope for the best.

I really have no problem with bikes on the trail. But I think it is the wrong approach to think it's the walking person's responsibility to jump out of the way quickly enough.

When I'm on my bike I stop for pedestrians and people on horseback. When I was out with the horse I stopped for both bikes and pedestrians.
When I'm in the car I stop for walkers, bikes, and people on horseback.

The potentially "weaker" one has right of way for me.

I always thought that's a common rule, but apparently it isn't.

 

[Tincatinker]

If you are intending to pass a pedestrian then you pass them on the pedestrians’ left ( a general traffic convention in Spain) then you pass them on your right.

As the almost interminable posts in this thread demonstrate the rules of cycling the Camino paths can be written on a single handlebar. The interpretation of those rules were beyond even Herman Melville

 

[Flatlander]

Whoops- mis-step on the quote. To be clear, when coming up behind a pedestrian, do you pass them on the pedestrian's right side? Or left side?

Isn't that the $1000,000 question.

Where is the pedestrian?

On any road, anywhere, where traffic is on the RHS, a pedestrian on the right I will overtake on the left. A pedestrian on the left I will keep my lane.

Two pedestrians can confuse matters, especially if they are on both sides of the road.

I recall very vividly an older English lady being quite rude while walking in the middle of the road and expecting me to follow the British rules of the road in Spain. ("Ride on the left overtake on the right" still amuses me)

Sometimes - and don't be judgemental - with enough space to easily (and safely) overtake it is advisable not to call out as that can "startle the horses" and startled people are unpredictable.

Then there are roads where Pilgrims are dotted, left and right, solo, pairs and groups and the only practical solution is to weave.
Frankly, that's a PITA and my response was to cycle later in the day.

While all this might seem simple, in theory, the reality often isn't.

People from the UK, Ireland, Australia (and other places) are used to the roads being the other way around. When it comes to instinctive reactions that can be tricky.
Languages and accents are a real mixed bag. An Irish cyclist calling out in Spanish to a German pedestrian? There's quite a bit of scope for confusion.
Some folk relax when there is no vehicular traffic and spread over the road. I'm pretty sure that's an irritation for faster walkers too.
As I said above, not everyone interprets a bell as a friendly warning.
A lot of folk have earphones and can't hear a thing.
When walking at, well, a walking pace, anything faster can seem very fast. It's not fair to paint all cyclists as some kind of speed merchants.
I've seen suggestions that cyclists dismount, overtake pedestrians on foot, then remount to continue. Oh please!
It's frustrating for cyclists when an advance warning, whether bell, "Buen Camino" or some impromptu Karaoke isn't acknowledged in any way.

My advice to anyone on foot would be to pick a side and stick to it, perhaps considering the positioning of those in front.
Have a look back every now and then.
Hold their ground.
When upset by behaviour, try to calmly call the person back and as calmly as possible explain the difficulty.

And treat everyone else on the road as a grade A idiot. We're rarely disappointed but often surprised.

I really have no problem with bikes on the trail. But I think it is the wrong approach to think it's the walking person's responsibility to jump out of the way quickly enough.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that?
In fact, it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
There aren't many cyclists going to aim their bike at a target in the expectation that the target will move.
I fully accept that it might seem like that, though and that is not pleasant to experience.

 

[lt56ny]

There was no intention to doubt someone's word.
I have asked (and am still waiting) for evidence that backs up

I believe that to be incorrect, open to misinterpretation and potentially dangerous when people take the "law" into their own hands.


With respect, in any debate I find it unhelpful to assume what is going on in someone else's head. It rarely leads to understanding.


With respect, ss someone with a fair few kms under my belt on a bike this is something that really bugs me, especially on a route like a Camino with people speaking numerous languages and understanding fewer.
"on the left" is cycling jargon. Expecting a non cyclist to understand it is veering towards arrogance. Expecting a Korean (insert non English speaking country of choice here) to understand it is optimistic.
It's not just the understanding, there's also the processing of it and the fact that it is a voice coming from behind. Is it an instruction to go left? It can be disorienting and "panic jumps" can be the result.

I ride a bike and it annoys the hell out of me, especially as my instinctive reaction is to go the wrong way.

I dislike that language, intensely.
As above, I asked for evidence that pedestrians have priority over cyclists on a Camino. It's a pretty bold statement, and wrong, I believe.
A collision involving a cyclist and pedestrian does nothing to prove or refute the question.


Could you define what you mean by road?
This is "The Camino" just outside Hontanas. Is this a road or do you think bicycles should be banned?
If bikes should be banned should farm machinery and local drivers also be banned?
View attachment 148674



I'd like to point out that taxes are paid to the Spanish Government (when they're paid ) in Euros.


I would imagine for much the same reasons as most here want to walk those same paths. Being amongst like minded people and an excellent infrastructure.


Thank you for this contribution which makes my point better than I could.

Comparing US e-bikes (subject to different rules and regulations than EU ones) and their use in cities such as NY City and Washington to their use in Northern Spain is the perfect example of of someone carrying some mental baggage from their home country.

E-bikes are responsible for a boom amongst older and infirm cyclists and to ban them would be a huge retrograde step for mobility and sociability.
In some countries, they are being actively promoted as a means to a greener method of transport.

I'd encourage you to think a little deeper on the matter.

A quick solution to overcrowding on the CF would be to ban the use of baggage transport. In many cases it would affect the same group of people affected by a ban on E-bikes. I have a feeling that that would not be a proposal welcomed here.

At the end of the day all this comes down to people's behaviour and the perception of that.

It would be good to be able to have a respectful discussion.




I'm sorry, I don't comprehend this. I can't help but think that things are being read into my posts that are not there.




Smart lady!
In different places different things work.
The use of a bell is perfectly normal and acceptable in some countries, but taken as a sign of aggression in others. On a route like a Camino with an international crowd, it's all the more tricky.

On a side note, my first time cycling in Italy was becoming very stressed out by aggressive drivers beeping me before they overtook me. Living in the Netherlands at the time, the only time I had a car horn directed at me was if I was doing something I shouldn't be doing. Cue frustration in Italy.
Thinking on it over the first couple of days, the "aggression" I was interpreting wasn't backed up by, for example, close passes, verbal abuse, window wiper squirts and all the other things drivers can do to people on bikes. In fact many times the aggressors waved at me as they went past!
As it turns out, once I switched my head around to realise that what they were doing was giving me a friendly toot to warn me of their advance my cycling became a whole lot more enjoyable.

WOW!!! From now on I do think I will send you pm's for all my questions because you really do have all the answers. As for who should have the right of way it should be pilgrims, first, last and always. I do not know if you have walked a camino or not and your reasons for walking. But if you have you should most definitely know that there are pilgrims who walk meditatively, or are experiencing profound moments that may overtake them while they walk and are not self aware but are lost in thoughts or possibly even better free of thought. For many of us the camino is not a bike ride or something to cross of a to do list. It is something that grabs our body and spirit and takes it places for peace or release or knowledge. It is not something we want to do but something we have to do. I do not remember the camino origins or history speaking of who should have priority, pilgrim or cyclist. Maybe to solve all your issues with all of us you may want to think about a more traditional bicycle route. There are so many that will afford better views than a camino. But you tell me as you do seem to have every correct answer.

 

[Flatlander]

WOW!!! From now on I do think I will send you pm's for all my questions because you really do have all the answers.

Please don't.
I don't.

As for who should have the right of way it should be pilgrims, first, last and always

A Pilgrim on a bicycle is not a Pilgrim?

For many of us the camino is not a bike ride or something to cross of a to do list, it is something that grabs our body and spirit and takes it places for peace or release or knowledge.

Is that something denied to those of us who cycle?

Maybe to solve all your issues with all of us

I have no issues with "all of you".
I entered this thread to refute the suggestion that everywhere and at every time on an 800km route two legs have priority over two wheels.

But you tell me as you do seem to have every correct answer.

I don't have all the answers but I raise points, I ask questions, I express my opinion and I think I manage to do it respectfully.

 

[good_old_shoes]

There aren't many cyclists going to aim their bike at a target in the expectation that the target will move.

I'm sure no cyclist wants to collide with a walker, but I've experienced them expecting me to jump out of the way too often.

If I walk on a narrow path where I know a bike can't pass me without me jumping off the trail or at least stepping to the side, and I hear a bike approach from behind quickly, or even someone yelling/ringing their bell, which tells me they want me to get out of their way, what am I supposed to do?

It's a split second decision.

a) jump left
b) jump right
c) don't move and hope the person on the bike can still stop in time
d) turn around to see which way they are coming from, which might mean after that it's too late to get out of the way because I wasted the few seconds I had to react by turning around.

The wrong decision might mean a collision.

Yes, 99% of the time I manage to step out of the way quickly enough, the bike passes without problem and we both say "Buen Camino" "bonjour" or something similar and smile, and everyone is happy.

But that one time you get hit full speed from behind is one time too often.

The Camino paths are sometimes very narrow, and even while the cyclist might not aim to run over people who walk, it's between high risk and more or less inevitable in some places. I've seen bikes on the path from cruz de Ferro down to Molinaseca. If you jump to the wrong side of the path there, it can get very ugly. On that kind of stretches it's just irresponsible to go with a bike, especially at high speed as many cyclists seem to prefer, because the trail is barely wide enough for one person, let alone a bike overtaking someone.

I'll always advocate for the trail being open for everyone, but it is naive to think that there are no (dangerous) problems as a result, sometimes, and those very real problems should not be downplayed just because one prefers one method of transportation or another.

Walkers should be aware of their surroundings and move off the trail for cyclists to pass when (if!) they notice it. But since cyclists move much faster than walkers, in my opinion they have more responsibility to make sure a collision doesn't happen.

 

[Flatlander]

Yes, 99% of the time I manage to step out of the way quickly enough, the bike passes without problem and we both say "Buen Camino" "bonjour" or something similar and smile, and everyone is happy.

Can I ask why you would take such an approach after such an incident?
You give the guy or gal on the bike a smile, a "Buen Camino" and they think everything is OK.
Would it not be better to flag them down and explain what you have just written here?

But that one time you get hit full speed from behind is one time too often.

No argument from me.

The Camino paths are sometimes very narrow,

Yes, they are and in those cases the priority changes.
Please understand that I object to the rules for such "pinch points" being applied to the whole 800km route, much of which is on public roads.

those very real problems should not be downplayed just because one prefers one method of transportation or another.

I hope I am not downplaying the danger?

Walkers should be aware of their surroundings and move off the trail for cyclists to pass

I actually disagree. At least in the compulsory sense. If a walker is legally in their position then the usual laws would apply.
It might be the friendly thing to do, it might be the comfortable thing to do, but I would never advocate for someone to be obliged to step off the road*.
* And this is the tricky thing. There are parts of the Camino that are not public roads. Still legal for bikes, though. It's not clear what exactly people are talking about with various declarations of "taking the road".
I'm pretty confident that the legal situation is clear though, that a cyclist hitting a pedestrian from behind on a one-person-wide path is going to be held liable (if it ever went that far).

Again, for the sake of clarity, my issue is with suggesting that all the Camino route is out of bounds to cyclists because of these pinch points. If the local Govt wants to limit access to those places (note, I don't say ban) there won't be an argument from me.

since cyclists move much faster than walkers, in my opinion they have more responsibility to make sure a collision doesn't happen.

I agree.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

I don’t have the time to read all the recent posts, but I might have something to add. I am on the Camino Frances at the moment, and I am holed up in Logrono for a medical reason. (I know, it could be worse!) Thus far, I have been riding the Camino track on my bike. If I did not have a good reason to do so, I would choose the road in many places. Because I want to be polite, when passing the walkers - and there are many of them - it is extremely frustrating to be constantly slowing to walking pace, particularly on the hills. But that doesn’t seem to worry, the groups of bikers who flash through. Often, you are totally unaware that there is a group of five or six of them one after the other. I fully understand the concerns expressed here by walkers. I have found it alarming too.

 

[Flatlander]

I hope that you can enjoy your medically induced downtime.

it is extremely frustrating to be constantly slowing to walking pace, particularly on the hills. But that doesn’t seem to worry, the groups of bikers who flash through. Often, you are totally unaware that there is a group of five or six of them one after the other. I fully understand the concerns expressed here by walkers. I have found it alarming too.

My experience was similar to yours. I too had issues with groups of cyclists.

I do understand the concerns expressed by walkers.

But can I ask you how would you feel about being obliged to stick to the roads?

 

[lt56ny]

Please don't.
I don't.


A Pilgrim on a bicycle is not a Pilgrim?


Is that something denied to those of us who cycle?

I have no issues with "all of you".
I entered this thread to refute the suggestion that everywhere and at every time on an 800km route two legs have priority over two wheels.


I don't have all the answers but I raise points, I ask questions, I express my opinion and I think I manage to do it respectfully.

I will answer all your positions easily
Yes you do have an answer for everything. Right or wrong.
No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim. They are a bike rider that rides on a camino.
Is it something denied??????? I never said that. I never implied that. I stated this and I hope you can see it is so, so incredibly obvious. When one is walking in this state a speeding cyclist can be a danger to the walking pilgrim. I am baffled that someone with insight would not see this.
If you didn't have issues you wouldn't go on and on and answer everyone with basically the same answer. Once again this is first and foremost, A PILGRIMAGE, not a bike ride. It is a sacred journey that one undertakes. Full of joy and sadness and laughter and pain.
The last statement about your points is so very interesting. Making a statement in question form does not hide the fact that you believe any other view other than yours is incorrect, short sighted, not seeing the whole picture .
I do love having these disagreements no matter how mundane, repetitive and of so little value they are.
My wife would be angry with me if she knew I was engaging in this really great waste of time. But as I always say when she says why do you engage like this. My answer is always I can't help it.
You also made some righteous argument about how much e bikes have helped people. I NEVER SAID ANY DIFFERENT. I just said if you are hit by one the chance of serious injury is far greater than a tricycle.
Also I have no idea where you are from but you know what happens when people assume. I lived in Europe for 3 years, with most of that time spent in Barcelona. I have lived in Mexico for the last 10 years and married to a Mexican woman and have only one friend who is not Mexican. So I think I have a pretty good idea of cultural sensitivity and what others may think in other countres.

 

[Flatlander]

No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim

My Compostela says otherwise.

does not hide the fact that you believe any other view other than yours is incorrect,

Hello Pot, meet Kettle.

Other than personal digs and bald statements is there anything you wish to, you know, discuss?

 

[Peregrinopaul]

But can I ask you how would you feel about being obliged to stick to the roads?

That is actually an interesting question. I think if there was an officially designated “cycling” Camino Frances, I would be happy to take it and be part of the community it encouraged. But then, I’m an old guy, and I must say that I find the tracks very difficult in many places.

 

[El Cascayal]

"on the left" is cycling jargon. Expecting a non cyclist to understand it is veering towards arrogance. Expecting a Korean (insert non English speaking country of choice here) to understand it is optimistic.

The point I was making is that this is biking etiquette in the US. I by no means suggested cyclists use this in non- English speaking situations. The point is bikes need to announce themselves especially on a shared trail.
The arrogance is on the part of those on 2 wheels who mow over pedestrians.
Perhaps there should be suggestions provided to cyclists.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim. They are a bike rider that rides on a camino.

Huh? The Camino is almost the only place I ride a bike - except maybe to go to the supermarket.

 

[Flatlander]

The point I was making is that this is biking etiquette in the US. I by no means suggested cyclists use this in non- English speaking situations. The point is bikes need to announce themselves especially on a shared trail.
The arrogance is on the part of those on 2 wheels who mow over pedestrians.
Perhaps there should be suggestions provided to cyclists.

The thing is though, it may be biking etiquette in the US and well known amongst the cycling community but has anyone ever bothered to check if the non cycling community understand?

And yes, it happens on the Camino.

I lived a long time in the Netherlands - more bikes than people - and only "roadies" would use such a term and then amongst themselves.

I've advocated for the bolded on here before. (And people on foot, too).

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that the vast majority of cyclists encountered are local and without buy in from all parties very little is going to happen.

We can waffle on about an ideal world or we can try to make the most of the real one we inhabit.

I think step one is talking to each other and listening.

Some think the answer is to ban people on bikes.

 

[Flatlander]

That is actually an interesting question. I think if there was an officially designated “cycling” Camino Frances, I would be happy to take it and be part of the community it encouraged. But then, I’m an old guy, and I must say that I find the tracks very difficult in many places.

Lots of "old guys" go great places on their bikes!

I get perturbed at the notion that the road in the photo earlier may be prohibited to bikes. It is a public road.

I'd have no problem with time limits on certain sections. (No bikes before, say, 2 pm).
The notion of telling a local that an iconic landmark is off-limits to them does not sit well with me.

I sometimes took the road in the morning, doubled back, then took the more usual pedestrian route later in the day. The road can be very dull in comparison.

One of the dumbest things I did was to hike a bike with the walkers up from St. Jean to Roncevalles. I think I carried the bike as much as I rode it - at least to the top. It wasn't my plan but the magic in the air that early morning was inspiring. It was a wonderful experience and as far as I know no walking pilgrims were terrified. Most of them laughed at me.
To think that that choice might be denied to others in the future is appalling to me.

I wish you a speedy recovery

 

[Blister Bill]

There is always going to be an issue when you have people using the same path moving at different speeds. The issue predominantly seams to be when approached from behind. To me basic courtesy (decency) is that the person in front, who is already on the trail, has the right of way be it for an approaching cyclist or faster walker. I've only ever had issues with pilgrim cyclists including being side swiped by a tandem. The local cyclists I have encountered were not the issue. Maybe it's to do with maintaining balance with all their kit that necessitates trying to pass at speed. Never had an issue with a caballero at the trot slowing and waiting to pass safely or even the Spanish tractors that literally cover the whole path (in their country on the road their taxes paid for) showing the ultimate courtesy and patience on the shared way. On my last camino I even came back to find the late arriving cyclists had moved my gear off my bunk and claimed it for their own - a unique camino experience. It just all comes down to courtesy, patience, tolerance and maybe a bit of humility to accept the shared way cannot always be done exactly as we want to do it all the time.

 

[lt56ny]

Huh? The Camino is almost the only place I ride a bike - except maybe to go to the supermarket.

I am not sure what words in that sentence is hard to understand.
You don’t agree? No problem your opinion is as valid to you as mine is to me.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I posed my question for the OP, and despite them responding to the thread it has not been answered.
(For the record, there are motorways, some Plazas, Private Property and precious few other places where it is illegal for me to take my bike).

Given that the CF is some 800+km long, with numerous variants, encompassing everything from single person wide rocky trails to urban areas and stretches along main roads, I am bemused by the notion of a single "bicyclists should take to the roads" assertion. My first question would be "what constitutes a road?"

Please re-read my post and don't put words in my mouth.
I did not say cyclists SHOULD take the road.
I said, "Bicyclists are appreciated if they take the roads."

Also, if I had my wish, it would be that pilgrims must sit and hear some rules of how to be good pilgrims before they were given a Compostela. Rules of etiquette. I have a list. But I'm passionate about two. One would be to NOT leave their danged toilet paper and sanitary items and other trash on the trail - and the other would be that bicycles MUST have a bell and MUST give walking pilgrims ample warning before barreling down the trail and scaring the crap out of or injuring walkers.

 

[mike g]

Please re-read my post and don't put words in my mouth.
I did not say cyclists SHOULD take the road.
I said, "Bicyclists are appreciated if they take the roads."

Also, if I had my wish, it would be that pilgrims must sit and hear some rules of how to be good pilgrims before they were given a Compostela. Rules of etiquette. I have a list. But I'm passionate about two. One would be to NOT leave their danged toilet paper and sanitary items and other trash on the trail - and the other would be that bicycles MUST have a bell and MUST give walking pilgrims ample warning before barreling down the trail and scaring the crap out of or injuring walkers.

matbe we should all have potting soil shovels instead of scallop shells hanging on our mochillas. In defence of litter it's a great way to assure yourself that you are on the right path, if the litter runs out you are oboviously on the wrong path. Sierra Club motto take only pictures leave only footprints.

 

[trecile]

As for who should have the right of way it should be pilgrims, first, last and always. I do not know if you have walked a camino or not and your reasons for walking

No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim. They are a bike rider that rides on a camino.

I agree with you on many things, but mode of transportation is not what makes one a pilgrim - intention is what matters.

I do think that pedestrians have priority on the trail, whether they be pilgrims or a local walking the trail.

 

[dougfitz]

Don’t parts of the CF already direct bike riders onto different routes on certain paths? Might be time to grab a jumper…

There are places where an alternative cycle route has been identified for cycling pilgrims on all the routes that I have taken. These seem to be places where local knowledge might indicate cycling is more risky than taking an alternative road route. I never saw these as a direction to cyclists nor as any form of prohibition.

They should use it sometime, and adhere to bike laws, like informing the pedestrians they are arriving and passing on the left! It’s the Right Thing to do!

I wonder how much bike laws, ie black ink legal requirements, vary from country to country. Even conventions vary from country to country. Where I come from, it is customary for pedestrians to walk on the left of shared paths, and for cyclists to pass on the right. I see the opposite when I walk in Europe. Some people seem to adapt quickly to this difference, but I know others that take much longer, or don't seem to get it at all.

Having just completed a short pilgrimage from Ourense, I would observe that the very few cyclists that passed me gave adequate warning for me to move to the right side of the path, either by voice or bell. More, they didn't rush past in what might have been seen as a dangerous manner.

My other observation is that groups of two or more pilgrims often behaved in ways that would have made it difficult for any cyclist to pass safely. I am not expecting that walkers should do so in single file, but when a group occupies the whole width of a road, one wonders how much attention they are paying, and whether they have sufficient awareness of what is happening around them to allow others to pass them unhindered.

 

[Sidknee]

There are places where an alternative cycle route has been identified for cycling pilgrims on all the routes that I have taken. These seem to be places where local knowledge might indicate cycling is more risky than taking an alternative road route. I never saw these as a direction to cyclists nor as any form of prohibition.

I wonder how much bike laws, ie black ink legal requirements, vary from country to country. Even conventions vary from country to country. Where I come from, it is customary for pedestrians to walk on the left of shared paths, and for cyclists to pass on the right. I see the opposite when I walk in Europe. Some people seem to adapt quickly to this difference, but I know others that take much longer, or don't seem to get it at all.

Having just completed a short pilgrimage from Ourense, I would observe that the very few cyclists that passed me gave adequate warning for me to move to the right side of the path, either by voice or bell. More, they didn't rush past in what might have been seen as a dangerous manner.

My other observation is that groups of two or more pilgrims often behaved in ways that would have made it difficult for any cyclist to pass safely. I am not expecting that walkers should do so in single file, but when a group occupies the whole width of a road, one wonders how much attention they are paying, and whether they have sufficient awareness of what is happening around them to allow others to pass them unhindered.

Not certain Doug, but doesn’t the route up to O’Cebreiro split the path into hikers and cyclists?. i think there was also other parts where the cyclists are redirected ( going into Molinaseca and the descent from Alto del Pedron)

Appreciate that no one police’s these splits that I’m aware of, may be more recommendations?

Buen Camino

 

[dick bird]

there are motorways, some Plazas, Private Property and precious few other places where it is illegal for me to take my bike).

I believe I am right in saying that it is also prohibited in the UK to ride a bicycle along the pavement (aka sidewalk) or footpath.

And can I just remind everyone to keep it polite and avoid ad hominem arguments.

 

[Kathar1na]

A number of cyclists do not get that walkers are to given priority on the Camino

Perhaps you can point us to the section in Spanish traffic law that says so? I am or have been a pedestrian and sometimes a cyclist in various European countries but have to admit that I am not intimately familiar with every country’s rules and just assume that what I think applies as a rule is an actual rule - and then mostly in urban environments and not in rural environments.

Fwiw, I never had an issue with cyclists on the long way to Santiago but then I mostly walk on my own and not in chatting groups of 2 or more people and my hearing is quite good - I often just heard them coming, even without acoustic warning.

 

[dougfitz]

Not certain Doug, but doesn’t the route up to O’Cebreiro split the path into hikers and cyclists?. i think there was also other parts where the cyclists are redirected ( going into Molinaseca and the descent from Alto del Pedron)

Appreciate that no one police’s these splits that I’m aware of, may be more recommendations?

Buen Camino

I am pretty sure you are right, and cyclists are advised to take the road from Villafranca del Bierzo. I think there is similar advice from Cruz de Ferro. I recall the Brierley's CF guide mentioning others. I always thought these were recommendations, made to help cycling pilgrims who wouldn't have had the local knowledge about what stretches of the camino path presented very difficult conditions for cyclists.

 

[Kathar1na]

No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim

And you are entitled to your beliefs and to expressing them freely. You will know of course that there is no overall authority, whether secular or ecclesiastical, that regulates who is and who is not entitled to the label of Camino pilgrim or entitled to use the public footpaths and roads that have been selected to be put together under a “Camino” label.

As others have pointed out, one look at your credential issued by the Cathedral of Santiago informs you that Compostelas are given to cyclists and pedestrians alike. Not surprising perhaps for Spain which is a country with a living pilgrimage tradition and a great love for cycling as an activity on the professional, semi-professional and amateur level.

 

[Sidknee]

I am pretty sure you are right, and cyclists are advised to take the road from Villafranca del Bierzo. I think there is similar advice from Cruz de Ferro. I recall the Brierley's CF guide mentioning others. I always thought these were recommendations, made to help cycling pilgrims who wouldn't have had the local knowledge about what stretches of the camino path presented very difficult conditions for cyclists.

Agree think that it’s probably a safety guide.

In fairness to the cyclists in the couple of Camino’s I’ve walked I haven’t had any issues with cyclists. But that may be because I tend to walk by myself, as others have mentioned.

Might be time to close this thread, don’t think there is much more to add on either side of the conversation; and I’m not convinced the guardians of the Camino will consult this thread to set rules or otherwise.

 

[dick bird]

No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim.

Believe what you wish, but you may be in a very small minority there, A pilgrimage is usually defined as something on the lines of 'a visit to a place of spiritual, religious, cultural or personal significance, usually involving a journey'. No suggestion it has to be on foot. Until very recently, the Roman Catholic church encouraged visitors, sorry, pilgrims to come to Santiago by any means possible. In Japan, the 88 temples on Shikoku island are visited by dozens of 'henro' or pilgrims every day arriving by car, and the suggestion that one should complete the hadj by walking to Mecca is clearly absurd. Please do not dismiss or question the motives or sincerity of others.

 

[Flatlander]

Please re-read my post and don't put words in my mouth.
I did not say cyclists SHOULD take the road.
I said, "Bicyclists are appreciated if they take the roads."

Also, if I had my wish, it would be that pilgrims must sit and hear some rules of how to be good pilgrims before they were given a Compostela. Rules of etiquette. I have a list. But I'm passionate about two. One would be to NOT leave their danged toilet paper and sanitary items and other trash on the trail - and the other would be that bicycles MUST have a bell and MUST give walking pilgrims ample warning before barreling down the trail and scaring the crap out of or injuring walkers.

I apologise.
I can see how what I wrote could be seen as putting words in your mouth. I dislike that, so I offer my excuses for clumsy wording.

The point I was trying to make, using your post as a springboard, was that I am confused by what "take to the roads" actually means. I am pretty sure "roads" mean different things to different people.
I've posted a picture earlier and no-one has offered an opinion of whether they think a bike should be allowed there or not.

I think a lot of the misunderstanding could be resolved if we could agree on a common meaning for words like "road", "trail", "path" etc.

 

[Flatlander]

I believe I am right in saying that it is also prohibited in the UK to ride a bicycle along the pavement (aka sidewalk) or footpath.

Is this not a part of the problem? People taking notions from their home country and applying them to Spain?

You are correct in so far as the designation of the pavement applies. Councils, normally do this, based on a multitude of criteria and the reality is that to the lay-person walking down the path there is little evidence if it is multi-use or pedestrian only, or for how far.
Some further reading on the terrible case I highlighted earlier will explain a bit more of the complexity of the topic, especially in relation to the one stretch moving between shared and pedestrian only.

Focusing on the black and white, literal law can be a nightmare.

Then there is the practicality of often poorly designed or maintained infrastructure that makes it difficult if not dangerous for bikes to fully comply with the law - on the assumption that the law is clear enough to understand.
People will often jump to the mental image of the flying Uber eats guy terrorising the poor grandma. It could just as easily be a young kid on their way home from school trying to avoid the cars.
For that reason I believe casting all cyclists in perjorative, negative terms is something to be avoided but something that is common on this site.

And can I just remind everyone to keep it polite and avoid ad hominem arguments.

With respect, I consider the title of the thread and opening post an ad hominen argument.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I am reading this thread with interest as having been a keen cyclist in my youth...long since passed.
This discussion suffers, as many do, by entrenched views, ad hominem replies and non sequiturs.
My understanding is that there is a protocol to follow, as steam gives way to sail, so that all can enjoy the pathways of Spain with mixed usage. It is about a duty of care in pursuit of your means of travel to yourself and to others.
I offer this attachment as the protocol to follow for cyclists in pedestrian areas (by inference where there is the presence of pedestrians)

Rules of cycling in Spain. Pedal safely and enjoy the landscape!

Know the rules of cycling in Spain to discover its wonderful villages and natural landscapes on two wheels! Spain is known for its wonderful trails!

www.sonneil.com

 

[bananarama]

WOAH! This is one spicy thread...

For reference I've cycled CF 3x and VdLP 1x and I cycle to and from work 2h every day. Us cyclists, we HAVE to slow down when passing walkers, it's not a race and the speed differential is really jarring. If you slow down and say hello I don't think a bell is necessary but I'm open to having my mind changed on that. If you're going to use a bell get the classic "ring-ring" type, you'll get better reception from the nostalgic sound, unlike the modern "ding-ding" bells that are quite piercing. As for cycling the official path or the road, just use common sense because you're not going to enjoy a narrow path full of walkers.

 

[dick bird]

protocol to follow for cyclists in pedestrian areas

"

• You have priority over cars and motorcycles if you ride along a bicycle lane, a cycle path or a marked hard shoulder. In pedestrian areas, you must yield to them.

 

[Flatlander]

In pedestrian areas, you must yield to them.

Is the entire 800km approx Camino Francés, as marked by the yellow arrows, a pedestrian area?

 

[Bristle Boy]

"

• You have priority over cars and motorcycles if you ride along a bicycle lane, a cycle path or a marked hard shoulder. In pedestrian areas, you must yield to them.

That was the purpose of my attachment.
There is a Spanish protocol to follow.
Thank you for highlighting this.

 

[Flatlander]

There is a Spanish protocol to follow.
Thank you for highlighting this.

Can you answer the question if the entire CF is a pedestrian zone?

Please.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Can you answer the question if the entire CF is a pedestrian zone?

Please.

No it isn't. It is possible to travel in a pedestrian manner but is not only for pedestrians. This is about mixed usage.
That is the best I can offer.

 

[Flatlander]

No it isn't. It is possible to travel in a pedestrian manner but is not only for pedestrians. This is about mixed usage.
That is the best I can offer.

Thank you.

I think it is very important to the discussion that people understand that people on foot have no right to priority for the entire Camino.

By highlighting that, I am not in any way, claiming a right to ride as fast, as irresponsibly or as feckless as I like.

There is a happy medium - somewhere - where people on foot and people on wheels can co-exist reasonably happily and safely.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

There is a happy medium - somewhere - where people on foot and people on wheels can co-exist reasonably happily and safely.

Having been nearly mowed down by cyclists on paths in Spain several times I agree one hundred percent. This would be a utopia for sure, but doubt it is possible to accomplish and too difficult to monitor successfully, even with laws in place.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I saw several of these newer signs on the Camino between Santiago and Muxia...possibly they are helpful.

 

[dick bird]

Can you answer the question if the entire CF is a pedestrian zone?

Please.

Well actually, yes. A pedestrian is someone who is walking, and if there is one thing people do on the camino, it is walk. But apart from splitting hairs over what is and is not a pedestrian area, what this extract does is indicate that the general principle in Spain is that cyclists give way to pedestrians, anywhere. Bristleboy's link has another link to the DGT:

http://www.dgt.es/PEVI/eduvial/guias-didacticas-recursos/Guia-del-ciclista-marcadores.pdf

where you can see this set out in detail.

 

[Flatlander]

Having been nearly mowed down by cyclists on paths in Spain several times I agree one hundred percent. This would be a utopia for sure, but doubt it is possible to accomplish and too difficult to monitor successfully, even with laws in place.

Every Camino begins with one step.

On taking that step a lot of people doubt if they will succeed. I think it's a shame to not even try.

The key, in my mind, is dialogue.

And for dialogue, it helps if we're speaking the same language (for example, the whole Camino is not a Pedestrian Zone)
And listen to each other.

But apart from splitting hairs

Splitting hairs?
These are the laws of the land.
Understanding them is important.

If for no other reason than not applying one rule in one specific scenario to all scenarios.

The general principle in Spain is that cyclists give way to pedestrians, anywhere.

Anywhere?
Your link does not work - error 404

This link may help https://www.dgt.es/comunicacion/noticias/20-normas-que-todo-ciclista-debe-conocer/
Apart from discussing right of way at the likes of Zebra crossings and marked pedestrian zones, this, I believe, is the pertinent comment, on general priority rights (Rule (8)

En el resto de situaciones, deben respetar las prioridades de otros usuarios como establezcan las normas y las señales.

Given that the typical fine for breaches of these rules is €200 I find it hard to believe that the Police aren't out in force making a fortune for the state.
Or perhaps things are not quite as clear cut as some people would like?

If a poster suggested on this forum that a Pilgrim could walk 100km spread over any Camino route, hopping on buses at will and arrive in Santiago and receive a Compostela they would be quickly corrected and most likely rebuked for spreading misinformation.
A "splitting hairs" argument would get pretty short shrift, I imagine.

The notion that a pedestrian always has priority is incorrect and potentially dangerous.

 

[Kathar1na]

Not sure that I read this correctly but is there uncertainty about what a zona peatonal is??? In Spain, just like in other European countries, a pedestrian zone is an area in a city or town, usually a former street or square, that is marked as a pedestrian zone and has its own traffic rules; in general closed for motorised traffic. Definitely not generally an area where people walk.

The sign in post #84 is not a traffic sign. It marks the Eurovelo 3 route which is a long distance cycling route. It’s for information purposes only.

 

[lt56ny]

Believe what you wish, but you may be in a very small minority there, A pilgrimage is usually defined as something on the lines of 'a visit to a place of spiritual, religious, cultural or personal significance, usually involving a journey'. No suggestion it has to be on foot. Until very recently, the Roman Catholic church encouraged visitors, sorry, pilgrims to come to Santiago by any means possible. In Japan, the 88 temples on Shikoku island are visited by dozens of 'henro' or pilgrims every day arriving by car, and the suggestion that one should complete the hadj by walking to Mecca is clearly absurd. Please do not dismiss or question the motives or sincerity of others.

We all have our own feelings and definitions of things camino or not. He asked me so I told him. Whatever you feel or the evidence you present makes for a great case to support your thoughts. But at the end of the day, it will not change my opinion. Having said that my opinion is no more valid or true than yours is. What I most objected to was the man's arrogance and manipulation. I grew up in the Bronx and I learned two things in my neighborhood. You can't be afraid and it is an obligation to call a spade a spade and to stand against the types of things he spewed. I was taught that by one of the wisest and smartest people I ever met, my dad. Secondly with the stuff that came out of his mouth he would have lasted about 10 seconds arguing with some of the boys on the corner. It wasn't a politically correct time or neighborhood but at least it was honest.

 

[ivar]

I think we have come to the end of the line with this thread... will close it.