• For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here.
    (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation)
  • ⚠️ Emergency contact in Spain - Dial 112 and AlertCops app. More on this here.

Search 69,459 Camino Questions

Differences

DowtyCamino

Active Member
Time of past OR future Camino
May-Jn2014
May-Jn 2017
VF Jl-O 2021
Mar-My 2023
My wife and I have walked the CdS from SJPdP to Santiago twice (2014 and 2017) and we're now planning to walk the CF in 2022 (still a long way away...but we like to have a goal!!). We will be walking from Cantebury (perhaps even from London) to Rome starting off in August and ending in October.

From what I've read, the primary differences between the CF and CdS are:
A LOT less pilgrim traffic (at least until Italy)
A LOT less infrastructure (at least until Italy)
A need for greater route planning.
Sections without fountains/free-water)
More expensive (but you can limit this exposure by bringing a tent)
Twice the length of the Camino Frances route through Spain.

For the veterans of CF and CdS
What other differences did you encounter?
Other than a tent (and presumably a sleeping bag/mat) did your require any different equipment (e.g. stove)?
Is there a London to Cantebury "extension"?
What are the "rules" for wild/stealth camping in France, Switzerland, Italy? Is it as simple as asking for permission? Were you ever refused?

I'm sure I'll have 10000 questions before 2022, but would love to hear from peeps!

Mark
 
Very light, comfortable and compressible poncho. Specially designed for protection against water for any activity.

Our Atmospheric H30 poncho offers lightness and waterproofness. Easily compressible and made with our Waterproof fabric, its heat-sealed interior seams guarantee its waterproofness. Includes carrying bag.

€60,-
Check out Efren Gonzales youtube series on his trek to Rome. Not sure where he started from though. Home this helps good luck and Buen Camino
 
Thanks Iriebabel. I've been watching Efren's videos over the last few days and they are excellent. Thanks
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
My wife and I have walked the CdS from SJPdP to Santiago twice (2014 and 2017) and we're now planning to walk the CF in 2022 (still a long way away...but we like to have a goal!!). We will be walking from Cantebury (perhaps even from London) to Rome starting off in August and ending in October.

From what I've read, the primary differences between the CF and CdS are:
A LOT less pilgrim traffic (at least until Italy)
A LOT less infrastructure (at least until Italy)
A need for greater route planning.
Sections without fountains/free-water)
More expensive (but you can limit this exposure by bringing a tent)
Twice the length of the Camino Frances route through Spain.

For the veterans of CF and CdS
What other differences did you encounter?
Other than a tent (and presumably a sleeping bag/mat) did your require any different equipment (e.g. stove)?
Is there a London to Cantebury "extension"?
What are the "rules" for wild/stealth camping in France, Switzerland, Italy? Is it as simple as asking for permission? Were you ever refused?

I'm sure I'll have 10000 questions before 2022, but would love to hear from peeps!

Mark
@DowtyCamino Greetings Mark
I have walked Camino Frances several times and VIa Francigena from Canterbury to Rome (and on to Brindisi) last year. [BTW I don't think there are any rules;) about abbreviations, but hereabouts CF usually means Camino Frances and VF is generally used for Via Francigena. But I am NOT complaining!!]

There are certainly well described paths (I am not sure about waymarking) for walking from London or Winchester or Southampton. I would have started in Winchester, but I did not have time, so I started from Canterbury.

What you have listed is essentially exactly true! I walked starting on Easter Sunday, April 1st.

Traffic. From Canterbury towards Dover I walked with two people for a few hours setting out for Santiago. I briefly bumped into a couple from New Zealand twice along the way in northern France. I met a group of 13 French people who were walking for a week and joined them for three days as we crossed from France to Switzerland. That was the total complement of pilgrims up to the Italian border which is approx 1000km.
It was not hugely 'busier' in Italy. The odd one or two people as far as maybe Lucca. It got a bit 'busier' after that. Sometimes passing 6-10 pilgrims during the course of the day.

So this is certainly different from CF - although exactly the same as my experience say on Camino de Madrid and Camino Baztan - single figures of pilgrims met on both added together! I walked Portuguese route in November and met very few pilgrims there too.

If you are looking for lots of pilgrims, you may be disappointed. I am never looking for pilgrims, though I generally enjoy meeting them. But I am sociable and I talk to local people. I enjoy struggling with the languages much much more than seeking out fellow English speakers. I can stay at home for that! ;)

Infrastructure. Yes indeed a lot less in France. Specific signage is essentially non-existent in 90% of France. That is, there is not the profusion of reassuring arrows telling you which way to go. You need some sort of map/guide. There is a lot of GR signage, (red and white stripes), but these are not directional, nor is the number marked on them, so you need a map/guide/app if you are going to follow these. It was very instructive to walk with the French people I mentioned as they were 'GR experts'.

There is not any definitive single route through France - I used three guides, Raju, Lightfoot and an Italian one, and compiled my own route as I went along. Those three did not agree on route. I don't think I ever got seriously lost, (except inside forests, often!!!) but I did walk quite a bit on (very quiet) roads in France.

There is infrastructure in terms of recognition of the VF and also accommodation. Monasteries, convents, presbyteries (priest's houses) all provide accommodation and B&B's in several places are very pilgrim-aware. But there is not such accommodation available every day. And very definitely you cannot just turn up and knock on the door as in Spain - you definitely need to ring ahead. You may well be the first pilgrim for a month, and they may need to go out and get food!! And in the historic towns along the way there are signboards etc with accounts of the history, especially in towns where the VF going south crosses the Camino going West, like Langres for instance or Chalons-en-Champagne. And after Reims, I stayed with a family on three consecutive nights followed by a night in an old school house in a stretch where there is otherwise virtually no accommodation.

Route planning - yes there is a need for route planning in France. I enjoyed it. OTOH there is no need at all for route planning in Italy. You could make your way from GSB to Rome by following permanent signage, without using a map, just as you could on the CF from SJPdP. You need to keep your eyes open and navigating the rice paddies around Vercelli will test your observational skills. But if you add in the Sloways app you really cannot get lost - it gives a GPX for the entire route in a free app.

Sections without fountains/free water. Yes certainly in northern France there are long stretches without any form of bar/cafe/shop. At one stretch I walked 62km between bars (although on one of those nights I was in a town, Chalons-en-Champage. It is ultra-chic and I paid 5€ for a bottle of fizzy water in a bar!!!!) In Chalons I stayed with a wonderfully welcoming and supportive family. This is a huge difference from the CF(Camino Frances). You need to think about where you are going to find food, especially if you are camping. And you need to keep an eye out for public holidays of which there are a lot in France and on which much is closed.

Camping - I chose not to camp and not to bring a tent. I am (I think) too old;). I didn't regret my decision. I walked for 88 days and never had any anxiety that I would not have a bed. And only rang ahead (or used booking.com) one day at a time. Yes camping would have been significantly cheaper I think. I was in daily touch with a couple and two other separate walkers on FB (though we have never met) and they were all camping. Camping in France and Switzerland very easy I think and wild camping not a problem. Others can give you more details. None of them is on this forum I think but ask on the VF FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/19899007360/
In Italy, most people don't camp, or not nearly as much, because it is cheaper anyway, and more difficult to camp (I think wild camping is not allowed), and there is plenty of albergue/parish type accommodation more like Spain (though a bit more expensive).

Costs - Yes indeed France and Italy are both more expensive than rural Spain. (Spain is more expensive than Portugal, Ireland is more expensive than any of these I think. It is a spectrum!) NOTHING will prepare you for the expense of Switzerland if you have never been there before. :eek:It is a fantastically beautiful stretch of the route, but you need to press on through fairly smartly!

I walked on, after a break, from Rome to Bari and Brindisi. Wonderful walk. I met only two pilgrims. But wonderful countryside with a fair bit of waymarking and pilgrim accommodation about 8 nights out of 28. Cheap accommodation in BnBs out of season. And where there was pilgrim-friendly accommodation it was VERY pilgrim friendly!

Equipment - I took exactly what I would take to Spain. 7kg in a bag plus water. Layers. Summer-type clothes.

If you are leaving in August, just keep a watch on the Gran San Bernardo (GSB) issue. As early as late September you could run into problems with snow. I walked to GSB in early May and could not get to the pass (which is as I had expected.) I did try, and some people had managed to walk (through deep snow) the previous week. [I am about to write a post here explaining the options for the Pass, as I found getting clear advice was a bit difficult.] I went back up to Aosta (by bus) from Rome in July, and then back into Switzerland to walk across the Pass again and it was like walking in the English Lake District in the summer. Last winter they had 18m of snow.

People often ask - can I manage with just English? Yes of course you can BUT I would strongly encourage learning as much French as you can as it will be immensely rewarding. If you are going for a weekend to a country and are mute it hardly matters. If you are walking for six weeks through a country you will want to talk to people in the evenings! And many many nights you will find you are with people who do not speak English. Of course if you are a couple this is slightly different.
Italy a bit the same, but in Italy you are morel likely to be able to find a pilgrim who speaks English, certainly as you get nearer to Rome.
I blogged the first third of my journey at www.walkingtim.com (I plan to finish it one day). I will also, now I have a little time, compile my accommodation list.

I am more than happy to answer specific questions.

My speculation: I walked CF first sime in 2009. It has increased hugely in numbers, even in that short time. I suspect something similar may be going to happen on VF. 2022 on VF may be a lot busier than it was last year. VF is currently a very attractive option for people (like me) who seek a quieter walking experience and who actively enjoy a solo walking experience. But I think (fear!) the word is out.....

Oh and I plan now to continue from Brindisi to Istanbul and am 'on the cusp' of deciding I may bring a tent:)

Tim
 
Last edited:
@DowtyCamino Greetings Mark
I have walked Camino Frances several times and VIa Francigena from Canterbury to Rome (and on to Brindisi) last year. [BTW I don't think there are any rules;) about abbreviations, but hereabouts CF usually means Camino Frances and VF is generally used for Via Francigena. But I am NOT complaining!!]

There are certainly well described paths (I am not sure about waymarking) for walking from London or Winchester or Southampton. I would have started in Winchester, but I did not have time, so I started from Canterbury.

What you have listed is essentially exactly true! I walked starting on Easter Sunday, April 1st.

Traffic. From Canterbury towards Dover I walked with two people for a few hours setting out for Santiago. I briefly bumped into a couple from New Zealand twice along the way in northern France. I met a group of 13 French people who were walking for a week and joined them for three days as we crossed from France to Switzerland. That was the total complement of pilgrims up to the Italian border which is approx 1000km.
It was not hugely 'busier' in Italy. The odd one or two people as far as maybe Lucca. It got a bit 'busier' after that. Sometimes passing 6-10 pilgrims during the course of the day.

So this is certainly different from CF - although exactly the same as my experience say on Camino de Madrid and Camino Baztan - single figures of pilgrims met on both added together! I walked Portuguese route in November and met very few pilgrims there too.

If you are looking for lots of pilgrims, you may be disappointed. I am never looking for pilgrims, though I generally enjoy meeting them. But I am sociable and I talk to local people. I enjoy struggling with the languages much much more than seeking out fellow English speakers. I can stay at home for that! ;)

Infrastructure. Yes indeed a lot less in France. Specific signage is essentially non-existent in 90% of France. That is, there is not the profusion of reassuring arrows telling you which way to go. You need some sort of map/guide. There is a lot of GR signage, (red and white stripes), but these are not directional, nor is the number marked on them, so you need a map/guide/app if you are going to follow these. It was very instructive to walk with the French people I mentioned as they were 'GR experts'.

There is not any definitive single route through France - I used three guides, Raju, Lightfoot and an Italian one, and compiled my own route as I went along. Those three did not agree on route. I don't think I ever got seriously lost, (except inside forests, often!!!) but I did walk quite a bit on (very quiet) roads in France.

There is infrastructure in terms of recognition of the VF and also accommodation. Monasteries, convents, presbyteries (priest's houses) all provide accommodation and B&B's in several places are very pilgrim-aware. But there is not such accommodation available every day. And very definitely you cannot just turn up and knock on the door as in Spain - you definitely need to ring ahead. You may well be the first pilgrim for a month, and they may need to go out and get food!! And in the historic towns along the way there are signboards etc with accounts of the history, especially in towns where the VF going south crosses the Camino going West, like Langres for instance or Chalons-en-Champagne. And after Reims, I stayed with a family on three consecutive nights followed by a night in an old school house in a stretch where there is otherwise virtually no accommodation.

Route planning - yes there is a need for route planning in France. I enjoyed it. OTOH there is no need at all for route planning in Italy. You could make your way from GSB to Rome by following permanent signage, without using a map, just as you could on the CF from SJPdP. You need to keep your eyes open and navigating the rice paddies around Vercelli will test your observational skills. But if you add in the Sloways app you really cannot get lost - it gives a GPX for the entire route in a free app.

Sections without fountains/free water. Yes certainly in northern France there are long stretches without any form of bar/cafe/shop. At one stretch I walked 62km between bars (although on one of those nights I was in a town, Chalons-en-Champage. It is ultra-chic and I paid 5€ for a bottle of fizzy water in a bar!!!!) In Chalons I stayed with a wonderfully welcoming and supportive family. This is a huge difference from the CF(Camino Frances). You need to think about where you are going to find food, especially if you are camping. And you need to keep an eye out for public holidays of which there are a lot in France and on which much is closed.

Camping - I chose not to camp and not to bring a tent. I am (I think) too old;). I didn't regret my decision. I walked for 88 days and never had any anxiety that I would not have a bed. And only rang ahead (or used booking.com) one day at a time. Yes camping would have been significantly cheaper I think. I was in daily touch with a couple and two other separate walkers on FB (though we have never met) and they were all camping. Camping in France and Switzerland very easy I think and wild camping not a problem. Others can give you more details. None of them is on this forum I think but ask on the VF FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/19899007360/
In Italy, most people don't camp, or not nearly as much, because it is cheaper anyway, and more difficult to camp (I think wild camping is not allowed), and there is plenty of albergue/parish type accommodation more like Spain (though a bit more expensive).

Costs - Yes indeed France and Italy are both more expensive than rural Spain. (Spain is more expensive than Portugal, Ireland is more expensive than any of these I think. It is a spectrum!) NOTHING will prepare you for the expense of Switzerland if you have never been there before. :eek:It is a fantastically beautiful stretch of the route, but you need to press on through fairly smartly!

I walked on, after a break, from Rome to Bari and Brindisi. Wonderful walk. I met only two pilgrims. But wonderful countryside with a fair bit of waymarking and pilgrim accommodation about 8 nights out of 28. Cheap accommodation in BnBs out of season. And where there was pilgrim-friendly accommodation it was VERY pilgrim friendly!

Equipment - I took exactly what I would take to Spain. 7kg in a bag plus water. Layers. Summer-type clothes.

If you are leaving in August, just keep a watch on the Gran San Bernardo (GSB) issue. As early as late September you could run into problems with snow. I walked to GSB in early May and could not get to the pass (which is as I had expected.) I did try, and some people had managed to walk (through deep snow) the previous week. [I am about to write a post here explaining the options for the Pass, as I found getting clear advice was a bit difficult.] I went back up to Aosta (by bus) from Rome in July, and then back into Switzerland to walk across the Pass again and it was like walking in the English Lake District in the summer. Last winter they had 18m of snow.

People often ask - can I manage with just English? Yes of course you can BUT I would strongly encourage learning as much French as you can as it will be immensely rewarding. If you are going for a weekend to a country and are mute it hardly matters. If you are walking for six weeks through a country you will want to talk to people in the evenings! And many many nights you will find you are with people who do not speak English. Of course if you are a couple this is slightly different.
Italy a bit the same, but in Italy you are morel likely to be able to find a pilgrim who speaks English, certainly as you get nearer to Rome.
I blogged the first third of my journey at www.walkingtim.com (I plan to finish it one day). I will also, now I have a little time, compile my accommodation list.

I am more than happy to answer specific questions.

My speculation: I walked CF first sime in 2009. It has increased hugely in numbers, even in that short time. I suspect something similar may be going to happen on VF. 2022 on VF may be a lot busier than it was last year. VF is currently a very attractive option for people (like me) who seek a quieter walking experience and who actively enjoy a solo walking experience. But I think (fear!) the word is out.....

Oh and I plan now to continue from Brindisi to Istanbul and am 'on the cusp' of deciding I may bring a tent:)

Tim
A further thought or two.

Perhaps I should stress that I enjoy very much walking alone. Even though I also enjoy very much walking with people, but I do not set out to look for people to walk with. Not meeting a pilgrim for a month does not bother me in the slightest.

Somebody looking for that bit of the CF experience which is meeting dozens of English speaking fellows each day may not enjoy the VF, at least not the French half.

Somebody who was in anyway scared of walking alone would not enjoy the French half.

There were just two days, the stretch from Martigny to Orsieres, and my first attempt at reaching GSB, when it would have been genuinely safer, for purely physical reasons, to have had a fellow walker. But clearly I managed.....:p

As my blog will maybe indicate I found the vast expanses of time to myself, in the vast expanses of countryside, more than compensated for the lack of walking companions. And at least once each day I met someone or saw something which 'transformed' the day. Something which for me doesn't have time to happen when I am walking in a noisy group. Horses for courses.

And I am still, as I look back now (right now this minute, unusually, from Johannesburg) awe-struck by the astonishing kindness of humanity. Travelling through another's country is an enormous privilege. I was also very aware - especially in Italy meeting and talking to many migrants - that to be able to be a 'recreational pilgrim' is something which is not available to most people and is a huge luxury. I hope never to forget that.

Tim
 
Wonderful observations in your write ups, Tim... Thank you for your detailed report and your ending remark to remind us that our passion for walking the various camino routes is a huge luxury. We are a small minority to so easily forget, especially when we know how busy the Frances has become.
 
€2,-/day will present your project to thousands of visitors each day. All interested in the Camino de Santiago.
A further thought or two.

Perhaps I should stress that I enjoy very much walking alone. Even though I also enjoy very much walking with people, but I do not set out to look for people to walk with. Not meeting a pilgrim for a month does not bother me in the slightest.

Somebody looking for that bit of the CF experience which is meeting dozens of English speaking fellows each day may not enjoy the VF, at least not the French half.

Somebody who was in anyway scared of walking alone would not enjoy the French half.

There were just two days, the stretch from Martigny to Orsieres, and my first attempt at reaching GSB, when it would have been genuinely safer, for purely physical reasons, to have had a fellow walker. But clearly I managed.....:p

As my blog will maybe indicate I found the vast expanses of time to myself, in the vast expanses of countryside, more than compensated for the lack of walking companions. And at least once each day I met someone or saw something which 'transformed' the day. Something which for me doesn't have time to happen when I am walking in a noisy group. Horses for courses.

And I am still, as I look back now (right now this minute, unusually, from Johannesburg) awe-struck by the astonishing kindness of humanity. Travelling through another's country is an enormous privilege. I was also very aware - especially in Italy meeting and talking to many migrants - that to be able to be a 'recreational pilgrim' is something which is not available to most people and is a huge luxury. I hope never to forget that.

Tim
Tim: Thank you so much for your thoughts and insights. Please tell me if you get tired of answering my questions. Unfortunately we have until 2022 (retirement) until I have time for the VF (see...i paid attention to your post!). My biggest regret from Camino (and there were very few) was that I had a booked ticket home. Just that deadline at the end made took away a little of the freedom. On our 2nd Camino I could very easily have immediately taken a train from Santiago to SJPdP and started all over again - oh how I wanted to do that.
I won't be alone regardless of where I go. My wife will be with me. We're rarely apart and we both love these adventures. I have no strong desire for the crowds of the CF although honestly it never felt crowded - even in June. But I do love getting to know the locals. I agree with you about the kindness and generosity of the common man. We get less civil in cities.
I thought your comment on about not-tenting was interesting. Too old??? Bah! Never!! Honestly though we have never (as of yet) done the whole hike/camp combination. Travelling for 2 however is twice as expensive and the idea of regular 70+euro/person nights when I can avoid it occasionally with a tent is appealing. My wife is less sure! :)
Thanks again for your thoughts. I'll read your blog and I'm sure I'll speak with you again.
FYI: in case you have an hour to waste check out NOTJUSTAHIKE on YouTube. It's our documentary of our 2nd Camino.
All the best in J-burg.

Mark
 
Thanks Tim, brilliant insights.

I walked on, after a break, from Rome to Bari and Brindisi. Wonderful walk. I met only two pilgrims. But wonderful countryside with a fair bit of waymarking and pilgrim accommodation about 8 nights out of 28.

That sounds like a fabulous idea. Since Rome to Brindisium (Brindisi) is the route of the 312 BC Via Appia, may I ask you if you often got to walk on the Roman road during this part of your walk?
 
I don't know but I've been thinking that the Old Way from Southampton to Canterbury might make for a nice extension to my future (and possibly fictitious) Via Francigena.
Yes, from Southwark Cathedral. It's the old pilgrim route as in Chaucer. The Confraternity of Pilgrims to Rome chairman, Brian Mooney, describes it in his book "A long way for a pizza".
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
My wife and I have walked the CdS from SJPdP to Santiago twice (2014 and 2017) and we're now planning to walk the CF in 2022 (still a long way away...but we like to have a goal!!). We will be walking from Cantebury (perhaps even from London) to Rome starting off in August and ending in October.

From what I've read, the primary differences between the CF and CdS are:
A LOT less pilgrim traffic (at least until Italy)
A LOT less infrastructure (at least until Italy)
A need for greater route planning.
Sections without fountains/free-water)
More expensive (but you can limit this exposure by bringing a tent)
Twice the length of the Camino Frances route through Spain.

For the veterans of CF and CdS
What other differences did you encounter?
Other than a tent (and presumably a sleeping bag/mat) did your require any different equipment (e.g. stove)?
Is there a London to Cantebury "extension"?
What are the "rules" for wild/stealth camping in France, Switzerland, Italy? Is it as simple as asking for permission? Were you ever refused?

I'm sure I'll have 10000 questions before 2022, but would love to hear from peeps!

Mark
Tim Redmond has just about said it all, below. However, do have a look at www.pilgrimstorome.org.uk which has advice, FAQs, and accommodations lists. An do PM me if you like, I'm the CPR editor, and have also walked the whole VF
 
Thanks Tim, brilliant insights.



That sounds like a fabulous idea. Since Rome to Brindisium (Brindisi) is the route of the 312 BC Via Appia, may I ask you if you often got to walk on the Roman road during this part of your walk?

Thanks. Yes indeed. The route as it begins in Rome, out to Castelgondolfo, past the catacombs is on the old original paved Via Appia Antica. For the first couple of km it is very much road, but quickly becomes pedestrian. And absolutely you are on the original paving.
Continuing down parallel with the west coast to Terracina and Formia you hit the Via Appia quite a bit, but often the Nuova, which for surprising lengths has a (modern) pavement beside it - it is often lacking on other roads. Then again in Minturno where you begin to turn inland, there is an old bridge on the Via Appia (closed when I passed) which brings you from Lazio into Campania.
Crossing the middle of Italy (again) you sort of hit the VA 'in spots' but lose the original road I think. Then I believe it splits in two, the VA and the Via Appia Traiana.I was nearer the Traiana which is more to the north, nearer the coast.
Finally from Bari to Brindisi you are sort of back on the VA and the old pavement appears from time to time.
The port of Brindisi is wonderful, and the two, (or now, one-and-a-quarter), pillars which mark the end of the Via Appia stand proudly just below the Cathedral. A big flight of steps brings you straight down to the water's edge.
The road onward through Albania, Macedonia and Greece, to Thessaloniki which is my next plan sticks even more closely I think to the Via Egnatia, the continuation of the VA to Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul.
Tim
 
Last edited:
Tim: Thank you so much for your thoughts and insights. Please tell me if you get tired of answering my questions. Unfortunately we have until 2022 (retirement) until I have time for the VF (see...i paid attention to your post!). My biggest regret from Camino (and there were very few) was that I had a booked ticket home. Just that deadline at the end made took away a little of the freedom. On our 2nd Camino I could very easily have immediately taken a train from Santiago to SJPdP and started all over again - oh how I wanted to do that.
I won't be alone regardless of where I go. My wife will be with me. We're rarely apart and we both love these adventures. I have no strong desire for the crowds of the CF although honestly it never felt crowded - even in June. But I do love getting to know the locals. I agree with you about the kindness and generosity of the common man. We get less civil in cities.
I thought your comment on about not-tenting was interesting. Too old??? Bah! Never!! Honestly though we have never (as of yet) done the whole hike/camp combination. Travelling for 2 however is twice as expensive and the idea of regular 70+euro/person nights when I can avoid it occasionally with a tent is appealing. My wife is less sure! :)
Thanks again for your thoughts. I'll read your blog and I'm sure I'll speak with you again.
FYI: in case you have an hour to waste check out NOTJUSTAHIKE on YouTube. It's our documentary of our 2nd Camino.
All the best in J-burg.

Mark
Thanks Mark I am sort of retired, but as it is from a job which was un-salaried and is un-pensioned it is hard to really know!! [I'm a priest]. I will be 65 in a few days time.

I camped when I was younger......and I think I might give it a go again in Albania/Macedonia/Greece.
I guess you have pressure to book your final flight as you are crossing the Atlantic. I am fortunate not to have any pressure. Plenty of flights from Rome. I flew home (a very moveable concept for me - UK, Ireland, Kenya) in fact from Milan, as I had gone back up to walk over GSB 'again'.

I agree it is nice not to have the pressure of a home date. I have rarely had a fixed date for coming home, except the odd time I walked just for a week. It is nice for us in Europe. But you know that you will have pressure of the Schengen visa for Europe? I'm sure I am telling you what you already know, but I think you will only have 90 days from when you enter France? I took 88 days to walk from Canterbury to Rome. UK is NOT in Schengen area, so you could 'save' a bit of your time there.

I won't go into the whole sorry Brexit issue, but suffice to say I have both UK and Irish passports so I will not have any Schengen problems in the future, while UK citizens in future will as far as we can tell. I am truly sorry for those who do and will.

Even in France, it is not quite as bad as "€70 per person per night". And obviously an advantage when you share! I am always willing to take very mediocre accommodation and spend the money saved on food generally. I used Booking.com when I needed a bnb (not airbnb.com which always seems much more expensive) and found really quite cheap accommodation. And (sorry!! booking.com) I often used their site to find a place and then did a search and phoned them myself. It never costs more, and quite often you will get 10% off. Always tell them you are walking. People are generous. You cannot get the phone number of anywhere from booking.com before you have booked with them, but you can usually find the phone number online.

I didn't keep detailed accounts TBH but I would say my hotel/BnB average was more like €35. Yes it is a lot more than albergues on CF but it is not astronomical. And you "dilute" that with home stays. Be prepared to argue vociferously with people to agree to take a penny off you. And still donativo places in Italy especially. Against that, some religious accommodation was on the expensive side.

I've just watched your Youtube video and hugely enjoyed it. Very nostalgic, and very thoughtful. Thanks.

More than happy to answer any and all questions.

Best wishes to you both.

Tim
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
@DowtyCamino Greetings Mark
I have walked Camino Frances several times and VIa Francigena from Canterbury to Rome (and on to Brindisi) last year. [BTW I don't think there are any rules;) about abbreviations, but hereabouts CF usually means Camino Frances and VF is generally used for Via Francigena. But I am NOT complaining!!]

There are certainly well described paths (I am not sure about waymarking) for walking from London or Winchester or Southampton. I would have started in Winchester, but I did not have time, so I started from Canterbury.

What you have listed is essentially exactly true! I walked starting on Easter Sunday, April 1st.

Traffic. From Canterbury towards Dover I walked with two people for a few hours setting out for Santiago. I briefly bumped into a couple from New Zealand twice along the way in northern France. I met a group of 13 French people who were walking for a week and joined them for three days as we crossed from France to Switzerland. That was the total complement of pilgrims up to the Italian border which is approx 1000km.
It was not hugely 'busier' in Italy. The odd one or two people as far as maybe Lucca. It got a bit 'busier' after that. Sometimes passing 6-10 pilgrims during the course of the day.

So this is certainly different from CF - although exactly the same as my experience say on Camino de Madrid and Camino Baztan - single figures of pilgrims met on both added together! I walked Portuguese route in November and met very few pilgrims there too.

If you are looking for lots of pilgrims, you may be disappointed. I am never looking for pilgrims, though I generally enjoy meeting them. But I am sociable and I talk to local people. I enjoy struggling with the languages much much more than seeking out fellow English speakers. I can stay at home for that! ;)

Infrastructure. Yes indeed a lot less in France. Specific signage is essentially non-existent in 90% of France. That is, there is not the profusion of reassuring arrows telling you which way to go. You need some sort of map/guide. There is a lot of GR signage, (red and white stripes), but these are not directional, nor is the number marked on them, so you need a map/guide/app if you are going to follow these. It was very instructive to walk with the French people I mentioned as they were 'GR experts'.

There is not any definitive single route through France - I used three guides, Raju, Lightfoot and an Italian one, and compiled my own route as I went along. Those three did not agree on route. I don't think I ever got seriously lost, (except inside forests, often!!!) but I did walk quite a bit on (very quiet) roads in France.

There is infrastructure in terms of recognition of the VF and also accommodation. Monasteries, convents, presbyteries (priest's houses) all provide accommodation and B&B's in several places are very pilgrim-aware. But there is not such accommodation available every day. And very definitely you cannot just turn up and knock on the door as in Spain - you definitely need to ring ahead. You may well be the first pilgrim for a month, and they may need to go out and get food!! And in the historic towns along the way there are signboards etc with accounts of the history, especially in towns where the VF going south crosses the Camino going West, like Langres for instance or Chalons-en-Champagne. And after Reims, I stayed with a family on three consecutive nights followed by a night in an old school house in a stretch where there is otherwise virtually no accommodation.

Route planning - yes there is a need for route planning in France. I enjoyed it. OTOH there is no need at all for route planning in Italy. You could make your way from GSB to Rome by following permanent signage, without using a map, just as you could on the CF from SJPdP. You need to keep your eyes open and navigating the rice paddies around Vercelli will test your observational skills. But if you add in the Sloways app you really cannot get lost - it gives a GPX for the entire route in a free app.

Sections without fountains/free water. Yes certainly in northern France there are long stretches without any form of bar/cafe/shop. At one stretch I walked 62km between bars (although on one of those nights I was in a town, Chalons-en-Champage. It is ultra-chic and I paid 5€ for a bottle of fizzy water in a bar!!!!) In Chalons I stayed with a wonderfully welcoming and supportive family. This is a huge difference from the CF(Camino Frances). You need to think about where you are going to find food, especially if you are camping. And you need to keep an eye out for public holidays of which there are a lot in France and on which much is closed.

Camping - I chose not to camp and not to bring a tent. I am (I think) too old;). I didn't regret my decision. I walked for 88 days and never had any anxiety that I would not have a bed. And only rang ahead (or used booking.com) one day at a time. Yes camping would have been significantly cheaper I think. I was in daily touch with a couple and two other separate walkers on FB (though we have never met) and they were all camping. Camping in France and Switzerland very easy I think and wild camping not a problem. Others can give you more details. None of them is on this forum I think but ask on the VF FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/19899007360/
In Italy, most people don't camp, or not nearly as much, because it is cheaper anyway, and more difficult to camp (I think wild camping is not allowed), and there is plenty of albergue/parish type accommodation more like Spain (though a bit more expensive).

Costs - Yes indeed France and Italy are both more expensive than rural Spain. (Spain is more expensive than Portugal, Ireland is more expensive than any of these I think. It is a spectrum!) NOTHING will prepare you for the expense of Switzerland if you have never been there before. :eek:It is a fantastically beautiful stretch of the route, but you need to press on through fairly smartly!

I walked on, after a break, from Rome to Bari and Brindisi. Wonderful walk. I met only two pilgrims. But wonderful countryside with a fair bit of waymarking and pilgrim accommodation about 8 nights out of 28. Cheap accommodation in BnBs out of season. And where there was pilgrim-friendly accommodation it was VERY pilgrim friendly!

Equipment - I took exactly what I would take to Spain. 7kg in a bag plus water. Layers. Summer-type clothes.

If you are leaving in August, just keep a watch on the Gran San Bernardo (GSB) issue. As early as late September you could run into problems with snow. I walked to GSB in early May and could not get to the pass (which is as I had expected.) I did try, and some people had managed to walk (through deep snow) the previous week. [I am about to write a post here explaining the options for the Pass, as I found getting clear advice was a bit difficult.] I went back up to Aosta (by bus) from Rome in July, and then back into Switzerland to walk across the Pass again and it was like walking in the English Lake District in the summer. Last winter they had 18m of snow.

People often ask - can I manage with just English? Yes of course you can BUT I would strongly encourage learning as much French as you can as it will be immensely rewarding. If you are going for a weekend to a country and are mute it hardly matters. If you are walking for six weeks through a country you will want to talk to people in the evenings! And many many nights you will find you are with people who do not speak English. Of course if you are a couple this is slightly different.
Italy a bit the same, but in Italy you are morel likely to be able to find a pilgrim who speaks English, certainly as you get nearer to Rome.
I blogged the first third of my journey at www.walkingtim.com (I plan to finish it one day). I will also, now I have a little time, compile my accommodation list.

I am more than happy to answer specific questions.

My speculation: I walked CF first sime in 2009. It has increased hugely in numbers, even in that short time. I suspect something similar may be going to happen on VF. 2022 on VF may be a lot busier than it was last year. VF is currently a very attractive option for people (like me) who seek a quieter walking experience and who actively enjoy a solo walking experience. But I think (fear!) the word is out.....

Oh and I plan now to continue from Brindisi to Istanbul and am 'on the cusp' of deciding I may bring a tent:)

Tim
Did you keep a record of the VF walk day by day? Sounds fascinating!
 
Did you keep a record of the VF walk day by day? Sounds fascinating!
I blogged as www.walkingtim.com for the first third of the walk and then for various reasons stopped - a combination of wifi issues and meeting people in the evenings more were part of it. And my blog was (never) a simple account of my walking, so it took a bit of time. I plan to finish the retrospective blog. Soon.....
 
For the veterans of Canterbury to Rome and (Saint-Jean) to Compostella
1) What other differences did you encounter?
2) Other than a tent (and presumably a sleeping bag/mat) did your require any different equipment (e.g. stove)?
3) Is there a London to Cantebury "extension"?
4) What are the "rules" for wild/stealth camping in France, Switzerland, Italy? Is it as simple as asking for permission? Were you ever refused?

1) What other differences ...
I think you have nailed most of them.
One more is that, in my view, it is inconsistently and infrequently signed. Having perused WayMarkedTrails I could not see a continuous trail from in France.

Where a trail was shown it tended to avoid, by a wide margin, any towns or villages where food and accomodation might be found.

One section I did see was from Peronne to Saint-Quentin. My map said a few km from Peronne I should join an abandoned railway. I found it by constant reference to my map and did not see any signage. Later in the day I lunched at Vermand and could see on my map an almost straight line off road section to Saint-Quentin. While I found it, again there was no signage.

2) I did carry a tent, ground sheet, sleep pad (total weight about 0.9 kg) and sleeping bag. Apart from rolled oats (porridge) I carry no food and no cooking equipment. This means my route needs to include towns that will have a (small) general store each day.

3) The "official" route from London to Canterbury starts at Southwark Cathedral, where you can get a credential (but check a few days before your departure). In my experience in 2016, the credential no "formal" use except as a personal record. A simplified route from Southwark Cathedral is:
A3 for 0.6 km and turn left on to
A2 for 5.3 km and turn right on to Lewisham Way
A20 for 22.6 km and turn right to Eynsford
Continue up the Darent valley to Otford to join North Downs Way
Much of the A20 is in built up areas. But there are sections that cannot be walked and "work-arounds" will be needed. The total on this simplified route to Otford is around 40 km.

4) I pitched my tent 6 times. Camp site just before Dover, behind a church, 50 metres off the road near a stand of trees, behind a closed restauarant (by arrangement) stand out. I encontered 2 gite (at Spanish prices) and a chalet in a holiday camp (at a reduce pilgrim rate). To keep my tablet charged I stopped at hotels about 12 times on my 22 days en route. I did not encounter any issues when camping. I carry a trowel and toilet paper so leave (almost) no trace.

Because of no consistent route and almost no signage and the need for food and accomodation each day I chose to walk on major roads. This usually made navigation easier. There are no hills of any consequence and there were either good shoulders or, in case of extreme need, space to step of the road. Walking facing the oncoming traffic I usually wave at drivers. Even the Gendarmarie waved back.

I covered about 600 km, took two rest days (Arras and Reims) and stopped at Chaumont-en-haut-Marne.

My current intention is to return to Chaumont about April 2020 and continue on to Rome.

Courage with your planning.
 
St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
The road onward through Albania, Macedonia and Greece, to Thessaloniki which is my next plan sticks even more closely I think to the Via Egnatia, the continuation of the VA to Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul.
Tim

Sounds amazing! I was thinking that Rome-Brindisi would be a nice tack-on to the end of the VF, but even better would be to make it the start of the next walk and make it Rome -> New Rome! And then Part 3 would be Constantinople -> Jerusalem, once the situation in Syria is more stable.
 
You are all HORRIBLE people! Because of this simple conversation I now am heartsick to begin prior to 2022! Haha.

Honestly though, from the moment we decided to say "Yes" to the beckoning of the VF I have a new sense of excitement. The time of preparation is in some ways as wonderful as the voyage. Thank you all for your responses and to Ivar of course.

Alwyn: Thank you for the details. I'm fairly certain Southwark is now our starting point. I visit London for work a few times a year and I'm going to orient myself on one of these trips. I'll likely have some of my British family join me on the walk to Dover in any case.

Tim: ....and now it seems I must continue past Rome to Brindisi but I'm concerned about the 90day limit. I knew of it of course, but honestly I'd never even considered being in Europe for that long before so it hadn't crossed my mind - more research needed. I'm glad you enjoyed our movie. You now know more about Allison and I than most of our friends!

Harrington: The Pilgrimstorome site is next on my list! Thanks for the ref.
 
New Original Camino Gear Designed Especially with The Modern Peregrino In Mind!
My wife and I have walked the CdS from SJPdP to Santiago twice (2014 and 2017) and we're now planning to walk the CF in 2022 (still a long way away...but we like to have a goal!!). We will be walking from Cantebury (perhaps even from London) to Rome starting off in August and ending in October.

From what I've read, the primary differences between the CF and CdS are:
A LOT less pilgrim traffic (at least until Italy)
A LOT less infrastructure (at least until Italy)
A need for greater route planning.
Sections without fountains/free-water)
More expensive (but you can limit this exposure by bringing a tent)
Twice the length of the Camino Frances route through Spain.

For the veterans of CF and CdS
What other differences did you encounter?
Other than a tent (and presumably a sleeping bag/mat) did your require any different equipment (e.g. stove)?
Is there a London to Cantebury "extension"?
What are the "rules" for wild/stealth camping in France, Switzerland, Italy? Is it as simple as asking for permission? Were you ever refused?

I'm sure I'll have 10000 questions before 2022, but would love to hear from peeps!

Mark
Someone else may have already answered but the Via Francigena 'extension' option from London to Canterbury is called the 'Pilgrims Way to Canterbury' & is approx 145km in length. Commencing the 3rd week of March (yikes!..that's just over 8wks away 😯), I'm combining the PWC & VF to walk London to Rome. Total length approx 2100km & I expect to (actually, need to..) arrive in Rome late June. As an Aussie, I'm limited time-wise by Schengen visa restrictions (max 90 days). Fortunately the UK is not part of the Schengen so I was able to add the PWC to my walk with my 90 day limit not starting until I board the ferry in Dover. Happy planning!
 

Most read last week in this forum

The official Via Francigena site has published a list of free walks ** happening in 2024. If you happen to be passing through you might want to take part - or avoid that section that day. (**...

❓How to ask a question

How to post a new question on the Camino Forum.

Forum Rules

Forum Rules

Camino Updates on YouTube

Camino Conversations

Most downloaded Resources

This site is run by Ivar at

in Santiago de Compostela.
This site participates in the Amazon Affiliate program, designed to provide a means for Ivar to earn fees by linking to Amazon
Official Camino Passport (Credential) | 2024 Camino Guides
Back
Top