- Year of past OR future Camino
CF, Lourdes to Burgos, Oct 2018
CF, Burgos to Santiago, May 2019
Ingles, Sep - Oct 2019
It is a privilege not to have to worry about stereotyping. There are countries where it can literally get you killed, where young black boys playing with toy guns are shot dead by the police, for example, because of stereotypes that black boys are dangerous. Given the marginalized status of the Roma in Europe, I don't think it is unreasonable or unwise to worry about the effects of this stereotyping on them and the treatment they face.The movie, just like 99.99999% of all movies is full of stereotyping. Not just the gypsy thief bit. That's just what they do in movies (and television shows). I have seen stereotypes of my demographics/background etc in movies all my life. Not that big a deal for me. I don't get mad because I laugh or am entertained by other stereotypes on the screen. They put what people want to see in the script. People like stereotypes.
Isn‘t that an oversimplification? I know actually very little about this but from what I read the current situation isn’t uniform at all across Europe, there are huge differences between countries. This thread made me Google the name of the person from Burgos mentioned earlier in this thread and I learnt about a part of the town of Burgos called “El Encuentro” where 40 families live. That shocked me a bit, I didn’t expect to see this in Spain and certainly not in a town like Burgos. I don’t think it is typical, though.Given the marginalized status of the Roma in Europe
So would I. I asked a bit to Korean pilgrims I have met, but I was never able to get an exact answer. More on my part I suppose.I am baffled by the popularity of many Hollywood hit movies. But in recent years, there have been some quite wonderful movies widely released (not sure if they would be called Hollywood or not). For example "Peanut Butter Falcon" which, if you haven't seen it... watch for it! The best movie I've seen in over a year.
Re. The Way, I was annoyed by parts of it and noticed the geographic mix-ups. But what I thought the film captured well was the way a group of people from such different backgrounds, with such different personalities and unique emotional baggage, etc can end up as a like a family. Unlikely friendships that wouldn't have had a chance back at home, but grew into a bond that learns to accept different values and idiosyncrasies in its members. Unlike most Hollywood movies, nobody fell in love or ended up in bed, and that rang true for me... I mean I'm sure it happens, but walkers learn to love others in non-romantic ways.
I had heard from a Korean pilgrim about a Korean woman who wrote a book or led walks in Korea and was responsible for the large number of Koreans heading to the Camino. I'd be curious to see the Korean documentary that inspired Korean people to walk the Camino.
LOL...I am hardly privileged, but of course all of us who have enough idle time to mindlessly chat away on some internet forum are certainly privileged to some degree.It is a privilege not to have to worry about stereotyping. There are countries where it can literally get you killed, where young black boys playing with toy guns are shot dead by the police, for example, because of stereotypes that black boys are dangerous. Given the marginalized status of the Roma in Europe, I don't think it is unreasonable or unwise to worry about the effects of this stereotyping on them and the treatment they face.
Racism and the higher likelihood of African Americans being targeted by the police (not All police, but enough to be a problem) is not "hearsay". I will not debate this on this forum, but i just felt i needed to say this.LOL...I am hardly privileged, but of course all of us who have enough idle time to mindlessly chat away on some internet forum are certainly privileged to some degree.
I suppose your comment there about the police is a stereotype in of itself, right? You made the comment based on hearsay of others (television, media, movies etc). Not on actual experience.
This isn’t going to be well accepted I suspect. American cultural influence over the rest of the western world is riddled with the American point of view. Viewpoints such as the Korean, Euro or South American are not considered then rejected. They are generally unknown. They are like a foreign language even when translated.A point well-made Roland. Most posters from English-speaking countries are not even aware of Kerkerling's book. Nor of Korean documentaries mentioned in another thread that have motivated plenty of Korean pilgrims.
It's the subtleties of the language and the associations you get when you are familiar with the words and the culture. I can give you an example from another popular book, Immortelle randonnée, Compostelle malgré moi. Both English and French are foreign languages for me. There is a passage in the book where the author describes a hierarchy of pilgrims. It has me in stitches each time I read it in French. The English translation doesn't even make me smile. It's not the fault of the translator, and my sense of humour is the same. And it's not about puns, either.I suspect the Kerkerling book would be easier to read if the shared cultural experience was present. I have tried to get through it several times but find myself uninvolved with the stories. Perhaps a translation issue or a lack of understanding of German humour on my part.
He did not say or mention the United States in his comment. He made no mention of any country. I would say your assumption it is the United States is an example of stereotyping. Without a doubt.Racism and the higher likelihood of African Americans being targeted by the police (not All police, but enough to be a problem) is not "hearsay". I will not debate this on this forum, but i just felt i needed to say this.
You are absolutely right about this negative stereotyping Kathharina, but in fact the film deliberately goes on to overturn this negative view by presenting the Gitano community in a very positive light.Now, in my opinion, this is stereotyping, too, and one reason why I found these scenes somewhat odd:
Tom: Then we have to file a police report.Dutch guy (fearful voice): No, cops hate gypsies, they don't want to have anything to do with it. Not in Amsterdam, not anywhere in Europe.
I don't even know where to begin but this just does not sound right to me. Not for 2019 and not even for 2010 when the movie came out.
It was based on news stories reported in a number of reputable sources. Not on my actual experience of being a black child shot dead, obviously. They are not in a position to tell their own stories but that doesn't diminish the reality of those stories. I was thinking of Tamir Rice, but Tyre King is another example and there are more. If you want to call New York Times articles "hearsay" go ahead. But the point of journalism is that we don't have to be omnipresent ourselves to learn what is happening in the world.LOL...I am hardly privileged, but of course all of us who have enough idle time to mindlessly chat away on some internet forum are certainly privileged to some degree.
I suppose your comment there about the police is a stereotype in of itself, right? You made the comment based on hearsay of others (television, media, movies etc). Not on actual experience.
Thanks for having posted this Katharine. I finally got around to reading it, (in rather atrocious google translate), and as predicted I DID enjoy it. It was interesting to me that Martin Sheen's fame - at least to the writer and possibly to Spaniards in general - derives from the movie "Badlands" made almost 50 years ago, and which I have mentioned in a previous post.While I was looking for an article with relevant information, another article popped up that caught my attention.
Anyway, some of you may enjoy it: Cuando Martin Sheen se metió a peregrino - El Correo Gallego. The author writes in 2018 and looks back at what they (in Galicia) thought about it when they first heard in 2009 or so that Martin Sheen was going to do a movie about the Santiago pilgrimage, and how it panned out in the end: this movie, being an American movie, could have been much worse ... ☺.
I was responding to what i thought was a general comment about privilege, race and the police. I gave an example from my country (although i have seen unfortunate examples of police brutality against minority people in other parts of the world, too.) Im sorry it came across as ethnocentric.Racism and the higher likelihood of African Americans being targeted by the police (not All police, but enough to be a problem) is not "hearsay". I will not debate this on this forum, but i just felt i needed to say this.
There is an Interesting foundation lodged in your opinion. It reminds me of how I had to overcome some black-and-white thinking while on my first pilgrimage on the Camino. Is it walking only? Does a person have to carry at least 10% of their weight the entire time? Should the newbie hordes stomping and chattering from Saria actually consider themselves a Pilgrim? Or, should an influential movie be insulted because it didn’t precisely portray the unportrayable? My experiences, although profound to me, can never be fully understood by anyone else, even by another pilgrim.That would have been me, Paul, and I'm sorry if what I said caused you to be annoyed.
I stand with my opinion, though. Family labor of love notwithstanding, the plot, the overly dramatized events, and the scrambled geography are pure cheesy Hollywood, nothing to do with anyone's heritage or with the camino as it really is. So you're more than welcome to give it a break, but my opinion is different.
I think you've nailed it in one sentence, Djimbo.I believe that the film is not about the Camino de Santiago... rather, it is a story of the transformation of the Martin Shean character, and the Camino is the vehicle for that change...as it is for most of us (in varying degrees) who have walked the way.
But I have read an interview with Martin stating that he did have to mortgage his home as security for one of the loans.Someone said earlier that the Sheen family put up their own money to finance the movie but I don't think that's correct. They did not get financing from the Hollywood studios so they looked for and got financing from private investors. And also from some public investors. This may shock or astonish some of you but in Europe it's not unusual that public money is granted for certain film productions.
I remember reading once that the Xunta of Galicia gave them a subsidy. While I was looking for an article with relevant information, another article popped up that caught my attention. It's not easy to read for me and I've used the DeepL translation website so far but I will try to figure it out in a more accurate translation myself later. I find this great to practice Spanish. Anyway, some of you may enjoy it: Cuando Martin Sheen se metió a peregrino - El Correo Gallego. The author writes in 2018 and looks back at what they (in Galicia) thought about it when they first heard in 2009 or so that Martin Sheen was going to do a movie about the Santiago pilgrimage, and how it panned out in the end: this movie, being an American movie, could have been much worse ... ☺.
Sorry SEB2, I missed your post at the time. (It prompted me to look up the filmography of Tcheky Karyo, who was vaguely familiar to me, and found that he played a major role in that lovely film "Belle and Sebastian".)Yes I do think that it would have been just as successful with an equally talented nobody. Tcheky Karyo - who played the role of Captain Henri - was a noted actor in France, but a nobody to audiences outside mainland Europe, yet in his brief appearance he managed to convey a deep humanity for a bereaved person that set the tone for what followed. Yorick van Wageningen was unknown to me - not so to Scandinavian audiences perhaps but imbued his role of empathetic clown with a degree of dignity. In the end, despite its weaknesses, especially that section of the script given to Deborah Kara Unger, it is a good story told simply, filmed in a beautiful setting and documenting a unique experience. That it begins with a bereavement surely is the hook, because that is a universal experience. The emotional grab from that is that this is a loss where mortality prevented a reconciliation in a fractured relationship - it is unfinished business and how many of us have walked the Camino because there was 'unfinished business' particularly in relation to loss. It has often been said that a text - be it book, film or piece of music is never complete until it has been read, watched or listened to. As others have said, it is what people bring to the watching of 'The Way' that makes it work. No stars or celebrities needed just an audience.
There were only fourFive people join together along the way. It happens, especially when you consider that approx. 350,000 + people are on Camino every year. The leaves 350,000 - 5 = 350,995 more stories to tell. This film was like a blink of the eye compared to all the variations of other stories that could have been created. Just because it didn't tell your story doesn't make it a bad film, but a film that gave some form of insight into the true Camino way, whoever you are. Enjoy.
Err... I sort of included the Emilio Estevez character (Daniel) - even though he was being carried in a small metal box all of the way. It was his Camino too (although there may be some who regard him as 'cheating'). Its a nice film, get over it already.There were only four
Loved it...and it compelled me to go and seek out the Cathedral while in Barcelona last monthI have a similar experience. I read a book called Cathedral of the Sea. It was a translation into English from the original Spanish. It was set in Catalonia. Ildefonso Falcones.
I recently watched a Spanish production of the same title from Netflix. Original in Spanish overdubbed in English.
The main plot line was similar but a lot of history and culture was dropped for dramatic effect.
I recommend the book
Did the tour guide mention anything about the pirates buried there?Here are couple of shots. The third one is a view of Gaudi's Sagrada Familia from Sta.Maria del Mar's Roof (we got lucky as the tour was just about to begin when we walked in)
Yes, I do not know why some on here do that. It smacks of elitism IMO.I know that it is popular on the forum to disparage The Way, but many of us had never heard of the Camino di Santiago until we saw it. It piqued my interest enough to do some actual research on this and other pilgrimages and determine that it truly was something I wanted to do. The Way is a movie, not a documentary. Like many movies it simplifies and generalizes to make the venue fit the story. We can like it or not as a film. As pilgrims who have walked the Camino we may find that some things from the film resonate with us, or we may find that nothing from the film even remotely resembles our Camino. To me, it captured the feeling of community along the Camino quite well (also a few of the minor irritations).
Are you trying to imply that learning about the Camino through a 1989 copy of Let's Go: Spain, Portugal and Morocco is not the only proper way to discover the Camino?Yes, I do not know why some on here do that. It smacks of elitism IMO.
A bit like inferring that their way of learning about the Camino is better than learning about it from a movie, or say nowadays a blog or youtube video.
Hey, that looks like a pretty good travel guide for its time.Are you trying to imply that learning about the Camino through a 1989 copy of Let's Go: Spain, Portugal and Morocco is not the only proper way to discover the Camino?
A fair comment Dave.Citing the inconsistencies, out-of-sequence locations, or the fact that The Way took liberties with where they shot various scenes, is not disparagement.
Stating that the The Way, ". . is a worthless film, not worth spending the time watching, because things aren't accurate.", IS a generalized disparagement.
Most discussions I have heard about the film have fallen into the former category, and very few in the latter.
A fair comment Dave.
But I don’t even accept that locations shot out of sequence is a valid criticism of a work of fiction.
I loved the Lets's Go guides... I looked-up my old Let's Go: Europe from the early 80's and it mentioned the camino!Are you trying to imply that learning about the Camino through a 1989 copy of Let's Go: Spain, Portugal and Morocco is not the only proper way to discover the Camino?
I love this post, Jim. Some resonance with my own first (but I hope, not last) Camino in 2018. Thank you for your thoughtful words.I was bothered by the Burgos scenes in The Way. I could not imagine anyone stealing a pilgrim's backpack (but I also would not have left it outside the bar). My interpretation of that series was that they needed a vehicle for Tom to hit a very low point, questioning his being there, from which he could rise and understand what was really important about his pilgrimage. Based on the quotes from Emilio, I was not too far off... (so I am a bit self-congratulatory in this post...).
On my first pilgrimage on the Camino Frances, I too, hit a very low point when, after being sick for almost three days ended up in the hospital in Palencia (40 km from the Camino, south of Carrion de los Condes). I was in a very dark place mentally, assuming that I had failed, my body had given out, and I just wanted to get well and get home. I asked the admitting doctor if there was an airport nearby so I could start planning my journey home. She gave me a surprised look and asked, "Aren't you walking the Camino de Santiago?" to which I said, "Yes, I was, but I am too ill to continue." She then looked at her clipboard and said, "All of these test results tell me you are very healthy. You have two problems and we can take care of them." Then she looked me directly in the eye and said, "Your Camino is important. When you walk into the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela, you will understand. And we are going to get you well so you can continue." Then she paused, again looked me directly in the eye and repeated, "Your Camino is important." Oh my, at first I thought no way, but as the day continued, the IV re-hydrated me, and the antibiotic took effect, I started to believe it was possible. The next day I was released, and I started walking again the day after. Then fifteen days later, walking into the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela was magical!
And, I agree with you on that, all of it, JillGat.Racism and the higher likelihood of African Americans being targeted by the police (not All police, but enough to be a problem) is not "hearsay". I will not debate this on this forum, but i just felt i needed to say this.
I’m biased. I loved it despite it’s faults.
And it really annoys me when people dismiss it with the throw-away line “Hollywood Movie” with every derogatory implication that goes with it. Just today I read that the modern popularity of the Camino derives from "Coelho, MacLain, Hollywood". I take the point, but did you mean "Coelho, MacLain, Estevez"?
Credit where credit is due folks. It was a labour of love by the Estevez family, INDEPENDENTLY financed, and intended as a homage to their own family heritage. Estevez himself describes it as a film inspired by a grandson, made by a son, starring a father, honouring a Galician grandfather, or words to that effect.
The making of that film owed nothing to Hollywood. Give it a break.
More accurately:This movie has significant interest to those who read this forum and those who have walked the CF or other Camino routes.
I like that first sentence: it reflects my own attitude, although to be fair, not all Hollywood movies are like that, simply just too many of them.It's a movie that doesn't have extreme violence, sex scenes, disturbing content, continual bad language, moronic special effects, killing every five minutes, poor attempts at idiotic humour, big explosions, repeat of a movie made twenty years ago and an evil guy or a hero.
I doubt that much of the growth is due to the movie. Certainly it raised the profile of the Caminos amongst pilgrims from the USA in particular and the remarkable increase in pilgrims from there after the movie seems strong evidence of that. But the Caminos have been growing in popularity very steadily since the mid 1980s and the movie barely caused a blip in the curve. Someone pointed out to me recently - and very fairly - that our perceptions here on the forum are skewed by being inside an 'anglophone bubble'. I doubt that "The Way" has had a serious impact in the increase of numbers of Spanish, Italian, German and other non-English-speaking nationalities.Perhaps CF is 'overcrowded' now becayse of the popularity of the movie.
Interestingly, @Rick of Rick and Peg just posted the interview you mention on another thread (Locations).The Way is so not Hollywood, I saw Estevez say in an interview that he knows Hollywood made a lot of crap as he and his father were in a lot of the crap. He also said he was sick of movies being made killing people, that alone makes it a positive.
I picked up two copies of the DVD at a used book store several months apart so I would have a spare to loan. Both were $2 and one was new and in the wrapper still. They are easy to spot with the bright yellow package.I sent for a new copy for myself on the Internet.
I understand why people find this scene odd. I must admit, though, that when I first watched the movie, I drank it in unquestioningly.This is one thing that seems odd about the movie and that struck me already as odd when I watched it the first time: the three pilgrims, while chasing after the boy, enter a courtyard that to me looks as Spanish as they come and both the Dutch and the Irish pilgrim claim immediately that "gypsies live here". Huh??? Whatever Emilio Estevez wants to narrate here ... that looks like a major fail to me.
There is much truth in what you say about prejudice and discrimination of the Sinti and Roma populations in Europe. The stereotypes are negative (thieves etc etc) or romanticising (free nomadic life, no worries, music, singing etc etc).What I don't find unrealistic is the quick and confident (and prejudiced) assumption that the kid has led them to a gypsy neighborhood. I've heard too many prejudiced comments and blame for crimes laid against "tinkers," "travelers," "gypsies," "gitanes," in countries all over Europe to know that anti-Romani discrimination is commonplace - even among otherwise enlightened people. In the event that a scruffy kid steals something and escapes to a scruffy part of town, it strikes me as quite believable that some people will immediately label the kid and the neighborhood as "other" - and "other" is often "gypsy."
Just remembered another thing. I don't know Burgos other than the area around the Cathedral and where camino pilgrims usually walk and eat and sleep. As far as I can tell - perhaps there is someone from Burgos here who knows it better than I do - the area that is shown in the movie is not a "gypsy" area.
There is an area where many Spanish gitanos live in Burgos. It is a shanty town that consists mainly of low level prefabricated houses in dire need of infrastructure improvement. It is a far cry from the scenic old houses and courtyard that we see in the movie.
I found a news article about it once when I googled for the name of the person who is a social worker and a friend of the Estevez' Spanish in-laws. She was instrumental in making them familiar with the situation of the gitanos population in Burgos. There may be a link to the article or a photo from the article in an earlier forum post.
Thanks. I also found one of several articles reporting about the filming of "The Way" in Burgos. This one says:I found this.
It's not inconceivable to me that they would know. In one of those countries, I've had an area of social housing pointed out to me as the "dangerous" part of town where formerly nomadic people settled. I'm going to drop this topic here.I am neither Dutch like "Joost" nor Irish like "Jack" but I don't think that these figures would recognise a (supposedly) gypsy neighbourhood in Spain because they would associate a nomadic life in caravans and being constantly on the move with "gypsies" or "travellers". This is why the scene immediately grated with me.
This. Absolutely this. The location team found a very quaint area and hung some washing to make it look poor - Perhaps they figured that poor people don't have dryers. But anyway, a location chosen for aesthetics rather than authenticity.It is a far cry from the scenic old houses and courtyard that we see in the movie.
yes you got it , that is all it is about , take from it what you need , dont get to deep about it xxI'm sorry, but if it had been cheesy Hollywood they would have humped it in bed in the Parador.
To me it was more about rediscovering paternal love and the interplay of human relationships. The route provided an iconic underpinning to the main theme, but the movie was never intended as a Glass's Guide to it. If it had been, arguably a quarter would have been about crossing the Meseta.
For me seeing it was the final link in a series of events which inspired me to walk.
Fascinating, and good fun. Especially because the English script is so familiar!
I remember reading that the Gypsy by-plot was suggested by friends of Emilio Est´ son & his new local Spanish family...This is one thing that seems odd about the movie and that struck me already as odd when I watched it the first time: the three pilgrims, while chasing after the boy, enter a courtyard that to me looks as Spanish as they come and both the Dutch and the Irish pilgrim claim immediately that "gypsies live here". Huh??? Whatever Emilio Estevez wants to narrate here ... that looks like a major fail to me.
I recall hearing an interview with Emilio Estevez in which he said that he needed a means for the main character to go to his lowest point emotionally, deeply question his motives and why he was doing the Camino, and then rise out of that emotional darkness. The stolen backpack incident and gypsy by-plot was that vehicle. Having been there a couple times, the whole incident seems unlikely and does not mesh with the Camino experience I had.I remember reading that the Gypsy by-plot was suggested by friends of Emilio Est´ son & his new local Spanish family...
...and the dubbed voices sound so weird, except for Capt Henri Sebastian! Maybe it is the real Tchéki Karyo. What a wonderfully versatile actor he is.Fun to watch. Though they speak so fast!!
I never thought of that. Just saw as typical poetic license of sort. Besides I just assumed nobody would have removed footwear and clothing from a corpse that had been in the elements outside and given them to a relative.I was just thinking today, breaking in my new Lowas, how fortuitous it was that all Daniel's clothes fit his father so well. Even the shoes/boots!
it's all pretend anyway, but I suppose the character of Tom could have easily gone to one of the outdoor equipment shoppes in SJPdP and purchased what could not be salvaged from the corpse of his son of from the bacpack. After all Tom got monster credit card power lolYou're right. After all Daniel had two coats, the yellow corpse one and the blue one Tom uses. I guess he had extra shoes too. His pack must have been really heavy, two of everything!