Elephant in the room (forum)

[capecorps]

Just curious if anyone is actually doing a Roman Catholic Pilgrimage.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Curiosity killed the cat.

Yes.

 

[capecorps]

Hi Falcon,

Your response is somewhat cryptic.

1) Curiosity killed the cat.

If TravellingSonn could be curious about what kind of handbag we carrying (for the record: I do not, never have and never will carry a handbag) surely, I could be curious about other matters.

2) Yes.

I infer that you are actually doing a Roman Catholic Pligrimage when you’re doing the Camino.
I stand to be corrected.

 

[KiwiNomad06]

I met some very religious people when I walked the Camino, who were devout Catholics and were doing their pilgrimages for religious reasons. However, it seemed to me they were definitely a minority.
Margaret

 

[Sharni]

I don't think TravellingSonn was enquiring what sort of "handbag" she should bring. Rather the sort of bag used in the evenings when one has finished walking and perhaps getting supplies, carrying camera, wallet etc. Your comment seems quite disrespectful. Is that how a Roman Catholic would walk a pilgrimage - by being intolerant of other people (even if they did wish to carry a handbag)?

 

[capecorps]

Sharni and TravellingSonn,

Please accept my abject apologies if I have offended you in any way.

Sharni, I am not a good Roman Catholic. In fact, I wish I was. I am a very flawed and all too human, human being.

Please do not tar my church with whatever transgressions you think I may have committed. There has been too much of this kind of thing done already.

Derek

 

[Sharni]

Derek, maybe you are a much better person than you think you are. I should not have critisised you - I'm sorry for that (I was actually just looking for a way to modify my comment but you beat me to it) I guess I should keep my nose out of other peoples business and focus on what this forum is about. Helping people get information about walking the Camino de Santiago. Buen Camino

 

[capecorps]

Sharnie,

Its not like me to say anything offensive about any thing. So I was wracking my brain trying to find what could possibly be construed as such. And I think I've got it. It was my feeble attempt at humor, easily understood by my high school buddies but perhaps not by the forum:

McCarthy said:
"Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party of ...

And I said
for the record: I do not, never have and never will carry a handbag.



Actually, I do think the Forum has morphed beyond mere information exchange and is now ready to address weightier questions such as the elephant in the room.

 

[Trudy]

I'm not sure that I understand your question. I suspect tht most people walking the Camino are there on pilgrimage. They might be practising Catholics, or Christians of other denominations. They might not practice any faith at all, but still find a spiritual connection with the Camino and see themselves as pilgrims - which they are. It's not necessary to have any beliefs to appreciate what the Camino offers, and often those who see the Camino as a nice long hike find some spirituality by the end.

Having said that, I'm a Catholic and undertook the Camino for religious and spiritual reasons. I tried to attend Mass whenever possible and found I was often accompanied by other pilgrims who were not Catholic or had no beliefs. It was just part of the overall culture of the Camino and no one worried about the beliefs of others, we just enjoyed sharing a common experience.

Hope that all makes sense and goes some way to answering your question.

Trudy

 

[lorrainemc]

For me it is all about walking a path that my spiritual forefathers and mothers have walked for many hundreds of years. I am hoping that my "Way" will bring me closer to God: through prayer and a deeper encounter with the God within me, but also through the beauty of creation, the evidence of centuries of faith in the buildings/Churches along the way and, of course, the beauty of my fellow pilgrims, in all their wonderfulness and foibles.

That's me, anyways. We all walk for our own reasons.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I have walked the caminos as pilgrimage and as "just a hike." I have said this here before, and I will say it again: the one time I walked as a Catholic Christian, with a clear religious purpose, letting the religious infrastructure of the camino guide my spiritual discipline through each day, I found an entirely new and powerful Camino experience. I am still amazed when I think of it.
The pilgrim pathway is engineered for this, but you don´t notice that unless you are actively interacting with it.
I might even write a little guide, so others can give it a shot.

Reb.

 

[tyrrek]

I'm a terrible Catholic and would struggle to find the nearest church in my home town. However the Camino seems to link me back to my Catholic upbringing and the thought of a Camino without attending a service is almost unthinkable. It's one of those strange things about the Camino that make you question where you've come from, where you are, and where you're going.

A few weeks ago I walked the short Camino Finisterre, but before starting went to the cathedral in Santiago to pay my respects. I'd never had this feeling on completing previous Caminos, but I found myself drawn to confession for the first time in about 25 years. I had to hang about on the pew outside the confessional for about 20 minutes plucking up the courage to do it. The priest was amazing and knew exactly where I was coming from. 'Bless me Father, but I don't know where to start!' I was worried that the cathedral setting would make it all very 'orthodox', but it was the opposite. It was more like therapy and very emotional. I feel like I'm being reeled back in gradually. That was probably my first religious as opposed to spiritual/religious Camino.

Buen Camino!

 

[sillydoll]

I think you started this post on the defensive by using the idiom - Elephant in the Room - as your title. Walking as a Roman Catholic pilgrim should not be an elephant in the room at all. The Camino is, after all, based on what was a Roman Catholic pilgrimage and was shunned for a long time by the medieval 'protestors' i.e. Protestants.
Today it is a secular journey for most, a spiritual journey for some, but still an intensly religious journey for others. Of the ± 4 million Catholic pilgrims that will visit the tomb of Saint James this year, only a small portion will be walking pilgrims.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Simple question, simple answer. Unless you are just baiting us, why not start with your point?

 

[Tincatinker]

I would probably label myself a lapsed atheist if pinned in a corner by my therapist or priest. I undertook the Camino as a spiritual journey - in search of my human spirit. I found some of what I was seeking but not "religion". Maybe my next Camino will take me closer to whatever I'm seeking is called.

But to respond to the OP. Yes, many undertake a Roman Catholic, or other religious, pilgrimage. I met many: devout, despairing, or just determined. They were all beautiful.

There was even something beautiful in the Lycra clad bottoms of "Les sportifs" as they flashed passed on their bicycles.

 

[oursonpolaire]

I, too, found the opening title perplexing, as the topics of Roman Catholic and Christian intention come up frequently on the forum. In five caminos, I spoke with many pilgrims, and attended masses in the local church about a third of my evenings. On the Camino Francese, I would guess that about a tenth or less of the non-Spanish peregrinos were undertaking it as an RC pilgrimage and perhaps twice again as a generically-Xn pilgrimage. Another third or so would have a non-sectarian generic spiritual pilgrimage in mind. Others' percentages will likely vary, as we were all speaking with different people.

One very notable factor, which I have shared with some RC clergy acquaintances, is that perhaps about half of mass-attending pilgrims were not RC. In several places, RCs were in a minority among pilgrims. Indeed, on Camino III, the most diligent Mass-goer was a Jewish psychologist from the US who, on further acquaintance, told me that she had no idea what she was doing there but felt compelled to attend. I also met rosary-rattlers from Pennysylvania and California who deprecated the spiritual lack of focus among Spanish RCs and had taken to not going to village churches on that account (I found this an odd perspective, but what do I know). I also met an intégriste from France travelling on 10e a day who was troubled by the inavailability of Latin masses along the Camino del Norte but I think that he was an exception. More common was the semi-lapsed RC wondering how this linked to the religion of their youth.

On lesser routes, I was usually the only peregrino in attendance in the evening and was touched by the warm welcome of parishioners. On several occasions, I was also given a shot of brandy or sherry by the priest when getting my sello-- why is this godly hospitality not more frequent?

But there is a Camino story for each pilgrim and the religious aspect is often stronger than one would think-- I have met several who, like tyrrek, recovered links with a personal practice which had fallen apart many years ago, and I even encountered one Canadian pilgrim, a not untypical academic who had been raised with no religious content, who found her way over the miles into the Christian Camino and signed up for RCIA classes on her return, to the astonishment of her friends.

 

[duncan pm]

Absolutely, as oursonpolaire wisely states, a great many on the camino are moved and motivated to a different spiritual view through their experiences on the way.

 

[dougfitz]

I am puzzled. What is a 'Roman Catholic Pilgrimage'? How is it different to any other pilgrimage?

Perhaps the passage of time since I lapsed as a practising Catholic has dulled my memory, but I cannot recall any Catholic teaching on the matter of pilgrimage or how one should be undertaken. Is there something in Catholic theology or canon law that distinguishes how a Catholic might undertake a pilgrimage for it to be regarded as a 'Roman Catholic Pilgrimage'?

The only other explanation that comes readily to mind is that the term provides a distinction between sect specific Christian pilgrimage sites, or perhaps between Christian sites and those of other religions. However, the context of the question does not support this interpretation. Everyone doing a pilgrimage to SDC would be doing a 'Roman Catholic Pilgrimage', and the question would then be meaningless.

Implicit in some responses is the notion that it means to walk as a Catholic (even a lapsed Catholic). This line of thinking would allow the Camino de Santiago to be an Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist or Shinto pilgrimage depending upon the religious faith of the person walking, which clearly it is not.

Is there some other explanation that I haven't found? Can someone explain what a 'Roman Catholic Piligrimage' is that makes it different?

 

[thomryng]

Well, I can't speak for anybody else (obviously), and I haven't yet walked the Camino, however...

I for one am undertaking the pilgrimage as a Catholic, and for religious and spiritual reasons. I'm not entirely clear how this is a taboo subject, as I have seen several conversations about the religious and spiritual aspects of the Camino while tooling around this site.

Everybody has a different reason, and probably several reasons for walking the Camino. And I suspect that more than a few find things they weren't looking for.

 

[camino-david]

I don't think any reason is taboo for walking a Camino de Santiago. Everyone has their own reasons for walking, and can include those relating to hurtful past or present occurances such as the death of a loved one or childhood abuse, or just a holiday, and when you come to walk the Camino, you will understand that it is better not to be too curious. If someone wants to talk, be a receptive and sympathetic listener and definitely not judgemental. David

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I do not speak for the RC church (they might find that patently offensive!) but when I did a RC camino I set out with a clear purpose (repose of the soul of a dear friend who had died in an accident, without benefit of final rites) and to accompany said friend´s parents, who sought healing on the Way.

We sought the blessing of our parish priest beforehand, asked the neighbors for their prayers of support as we walked.

We started each day´s walk with an hour of silence. We each prayed the Rosary throughout the day, quietly. And when we came across a church, a cruciero, a wayside shrine, or even a cairn of stones, it was a sign to stop and recollect, to be present again in the moment, and recall why were were there and to offer a prayer for the specified purpose. In Galicia there are TONS of Christian spurs to spirituality, so I was constantly reminded and brought back to awareness by the very landscape around me.

We didn´t eat meat on the journey. We went to Mass every evening. We didn´t party or get overly jolly with our fellow pilgs. Ours was a solemn business, and they respected that once word got round what we were doing. (Only one of them questioned our "authenticity," pointing out that Paco was driving a car with our bags in it. Paco offered to carry the man´s bag along in the car, as his own "pilgrimage service," the critic was the first to drop off his mochila the next day.)

When we got to Santiago we made our confessions and visited the chapels and fulfilled all the requirements for the Holy Year indulgence. And when we went to the Pilgrim Office, I had my Compostela/plenary indulgence made out to my friend´s soul´s benefit. I gave the certificate to her parents. We and our pilgrim friends stood outside the pilgrim office and cried like little girls!

I may or may not believe in the eternal benefits of indulgences and compostelas or pilgrimages. But those few days of intense Catholic practice were one of the most powerfully healing Christian disciplines I have ever undertaken. It was good for me, good for the parents, and maybe even helped a soul out of purgatory -- who can say? Maybe someday I will find out.

 

[OldDad]

Just curious if anyone is actually doing a Roman Catholic Pilgrimage.

So.... if you as you say are the elephant in the room, does it mean that you are actually doing a "Republican Pilgrimage". How would that look? What is true Republican Pilgrim? It would be like trying to picture a Baptist, or Pentecostal, Mormon, Buddhist, Nudist, a nudist-buddhist or even a Non-Denominational Pilgrimage.

If your lineage had someone living anytime from now, or say 1968, on back to say the year 1200 and they were on the Camino, then they were probably doing a Catholic Pilgrimage. And praying for the yet, unborn you, all the way.

 

[cecelia]

Hi all here,
Wow- I'm astounded at the reactions here. Definitely one of the issues when we only communicate with words is that it's easy to misunderstand the intent of another person and it reminds me how important it is to remember that remember when I comment.
I interpreted capecorps question completely differently - not to say more correctly - just differently. So first a disclosure - I'm not Catholic and I haven't been on the camino since 2009 (going again in the spring-hooray!). I interpreted the question to mean something more like "does anyone do a deeply spiritual pilgrimage anymore?" And many would answer "of course - most do".

But much of what goes on in the forum is to do with what raincoat is best and what boots and what should we pack and how do we get from here to there etc., and when we do talk about the camino it is often in general terms or we talk about friends we met and blisters we may have had. If one hasn't been on the camino and is not a mindreader, it could be easy to interpret that this is what it is all about.

My own experience is that about half of the people I met were Catholic and I had long conversations with quite a few. I have been so impressed and humbled at the soul searching that I have seen among many of those Catholics of all ages. In particular, I was impressed with some of the young people(I'm pushing 70) who were delving to the depths of their souls to find meaning, value, truth and love in their religion, particularly at a time when there has been so much (deserved) criticism of the mistakes of some individuals in the church. Certainly these people were doing a Catholic pilgrimage. Of the other people I met I felt that many non-Catholics including myself were doing (whether they originally intended it or not) a very spiritual pilgrimage and in some cases other religious/spiritual pilgrimage.

Having said that, now that there are so many thousands more "doing" the camino, I guess it's likely that for some it is just another mountain to climb or item to stroke off a bucket list.

Okay - that's my two cents for now.

 

[Tobyturnips]

Like a lot of forums, misleading questions and provocative titles can be posted.
This title is in my opinion either provocative or a misunderstanding about the Camino.

I have done many Caminos and I would always do if for religious purposes among other reasons.
Whether people care to admit it or not, there is a religious / spiritual dimension to the journey for most who undertake it.
It might not be the intention for some starting out but it often develops as they walk.
If the religious aspect of it were not so important it would be no different to any other long distant walking route. But it is important and those who undertake it for religious reasons do not deserve to be mocked. In many ways it is those who undertake the religious pilgrimage who are responsible for the culture and nature of the Camino.
in response to another post under this topic, pilgrimage is in fact quite an important facet of many religions and is more prevalent in some countries than others. The act of pilgrimage was extremely important in ireland down the ages with the country crisscrossed with pilgrim routes and sites. It is still part of the psyche of many Catholics.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Original Poster tossed the grenade, then moved on! Still, the responses have been interesting.

 

[capecorps]

I should not have phrased my question about the elephant in the room like a bull in a china shop.

I do think that equipment is important. The question of how our delicate feet should be shod has been a preoccupation since we first stood up on the savanna and walked out of Africa through burning sands and freezing snows to populate the earth:

“The shoes were waterproof and wide, seemingly designed for walking across the snow; they were constructed using bearskin for the soles, deer hide for top panels, and a netting made of tree bark. Soft grass went around the foot and in the shoe and functioned like warm socks. The shoes have since been reproduced by experts and found to constitute such excellent footwear that there are plans for commercial production.”

Otzi’s shoes were the perfect hiking boot. But Otzi was murdered, shot through the heart by an arrow. And this, I think says something about us. It also says something about a religion that not only adjures us to do no harm to our fellow man, but invokes us to love him as ourselves. And then takes a truly gigantic step, and forgives Otzi’s murderer.

I don’t have a point. I do have some questions. At times, the Camino prompted me to ask: who am I; why am I here; how should I live my life; where do I go when I die. Modern Western society appears to be the only society that has ever existed where religion has not been front row center. At Sima de las Palomase not so far away, Neanderthals buried their dead with ritual and ceremony. Of course, it was a lot easier for a Spanish farmer toiling to scratch a living for himself and his family from the hard unforgiving soil of the Camino mountainside to believe. Clad in his best hose and jerkin in the great Cathedral at Easter, his senses overwhelmed by the uplifting music of the organ, the mesmerizing Gregorian chant, the sun filtering through the stained glass windows, the soaring ceilings, the vestments of the clergy and yes, gifts of the wise men, the frankincense and myrrh of the botafumeiro, he must have thought: this is truly the House of God. By contrast, the quality of our daily distractions seem so alluring, so beguiling, so absorbing that they tend to crowd out serious reflection. It could be said that we have become like gods where at the touch of a button I transmit these thoughts of mine to you at this very moment as you sit at your computer in New York, Sydney, London, Cape Town …..

On the Camino with only the mountain and the blue sky for company, I was able to reflect. I come from an entire generation of Catholics who for a variety of reasons are so no longer. I could no longer deny the religion of my childhood. Sometimes, I saw Roman Catholicism intricately woven into the fabric of the Camino itself. I saw the Camino Francis as a cleansing fountain exquisitely designed to refresh the parched soul by graduated degrees to its final fulfillment in Santiago. It seemed to me that the churches on the Way corresponded to the Stations of the Cross, each emphasizing a different aspect of the Passion. It seemed to me that the churches were strategically placed so that they were the first thing that met your eye after a particularly arduous walk. A pilgrim of the past must have been overjoyed to see the church tower reaching towards heaven and hear the bells pealing. And before partaking of his mead, meat and rest, did he perhaps fall to his knees to quench his thirsting soul:

Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven.

I was struck by the profound and moving imagery found, not only in the great cathedrals, but also in small village churches. This was not the sedate and sanitized Christ found in Canadian churches. This was an emaciated, bleeding and anguished Christ crying for us, forgiving us even as we whipped Him at the stake, nailed Him to the Cross and watched Him die. As if to drive home the point that it was men just like us, the men driving those huge spikes through His hands and feet were not always anonymous Roman soldiers, but Spaniards clad in the garb of the time.

I thought about the New Testament narrative on the Camino. God came among us as one of us two thousand years ago. He advised us to conduct our lives in a manner that does not come naturally to us: turn the other cheek; give away your worldly goods; love your neighbor. So we killed Him. Then unlikely as it seems, eleven unlettered men of humble station (including St James) spread out from an obscure corner of the Empire and succeeded in convincing untold millions to live their lives in a way that does not appear to be natural to us.

And we strove for fifteen hundred years to atone for killing God by raising great cathedrals in His name. We are however descendants not only of Otzi, but of his murderer as well. So we split Peter’s church into warring factions.
Today, we have simply forgotten God:

Do this in memory of me


Of course, you can’t think existentially all the time. I enjoy a good time as well as the next guy. Indeed, I had such a good time that I am already planning to go back this Spring. It would have been nice to have met a like mind that I could have discussed these thoughts with. But it was not to be. Who I met instead were surely the nicest people in the world. It put me in mind of the best of my hippy days travelling in Europe four decades ago. I think that the mindset that motivates someone to set off on the Camino is open, honest and adventurous. I think this is complemented by the Camino which is like a cocoon, set apart from ordinary day to day living. I think the combination of the two creates the good fellowship, caring, sharing and generosity of spirit shown by people of diverse backgrounds that is such a prevalent feature of the Camino.

 

[sillydoll]

You might enjoy the attached article.

Catholic to the Bone

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Cape:

Wow. I thought I was the only one. And the addition of Otzi makes it all the more wow. Thank you for that.
Stop by here on your next trek and we can have a good chin-wag.
Reb

 

[markss]

Wow is right. And Rebekah you aren't the only one. My guess is that you are joined with many others. The "Elephant in the Room" tag line could not be more appropriate.

In my own discussions with others on the Camino we often danced around communicating our inner most experiences, or perhaps were just unable to articulate them. My most poignant inner experiences were never shared. Either out of fear that people might think I was looney or simply because of my inability to communicate. I suspect that may have been the case for others.

Capecorps your post is brilliant.

 

[sillydoll]

Over the 8 years of this Forum, there have been various initiatives to create a haven or retreat in Santiago where pilgrims who wanted to process and share their experiences on the Camino could come together for a few days. I'm not sure that any have survived?

This website (in Spanish/English) provides resources for Christian spirituality along the way - http://www.ultreia.info/ including

El Camino as spiritual itinerary in PDF
Prayer on the road
Rituals of the Way
Rituals for the Road
Pray for the Camino de Santiago
Jesus, the Pilgrim
The Camino de Santiago. Pilgrim's Notebook
After the Camino

 

[letendre]

I'm sure that most people walking the Camino aren't religious.

They are not practising Catholics, neither Christians. A lot of them do not practice any faith at all, but everyone still find a spiritual connection with the Camino .
When I was young, I was a Catholic and I remain influenced by Judeo-Christian culture. Even though I no longer believe in supreme master.
I do not believe that any of the three monotheistic religions is usefull. Instead, they are responsible for the greatest evils of the world
So I have not undertook twice the Camino for religious .

Having said that, I remain influenced by my Judeo-Christian culture. I love to visit churches, I like the magnificence of the spectacle of the Mass, the beauty of the scenery and the smell of incense.

I appreciate what the Camino offers, and every time I find some spirituality during this nice long hike.

Buen Camino

 

[peregrinolincoln]

Interesting question. I am a Catholic priest in the Diocese of Jackson, Mississippi in the United States. Our diocese has the lowest percentage of Catholics of any diocese in our country - it is right around 2%. I am a priest in the Mississippi Delta, an area of the state that has an even lower percentage of Catholics. I cover two counties in Mississippi of about 1,400 square miles that is a very rural area composed of farms, swamps, and forests.

I first went on the Camino in 2003 before I became a priest. I used my Camino experience as a discernment period. I went back to the Camino in the spring of 2012 with two Catholics and two Protestants. We certainly went as a spiritual experience. In fact, the members of that group invited me to come along with them on the Camino. We spent over a year preparing both spiritually and physically for our Camino.

One thing I like about the Camino is that is brings so many people together from so many different walks of life. I do a lot of prison ministry, and I tell the men that come to my sessions that I by no means am trying to convert them to Catholicism. I just hope that my words or my example my help them on their journey. I have used stories about the Camino in many of my homilies and have given retreats based on the Camino. In fact, the Cursillo retreat program in the Catholic Church (also used by other Protestant denominations) and the Kairos retreat program used in prisons in the United States are all modeled after the Cursillo program that some Camino pilgrims started in order to continue on their pilgrimage journey after they finished the Camino. I hope to go back to the Camino again this upcoming year, perhaps by myself to use as a retreat experience. I know of other priests who go on the Camino on a regular basis for such a purpose.

I found it interesting that I often had a hard time finding masses to attend along the Camino. The mass times were not readily available and many small villages did not have daily mass. Some of the priests in Spain that I met were from other countries - so many of us around the world are experiencing a priest shortage. As a pastor, I was assigned to three parishes and two prisons in my current assignment (I have since merged two of those parishes together). Most of us priests are spread very thin.

 

[markss]

I found it interesting that I often had a hard time finding masses to attend along the Camino. The mass times were not readily available and many small villages did not have daily mass.

Father Perigrinolincoln,

Below is a link from the Official Santiago De Camino Pilgrim website listing Mass places and times along the Camino.

http://peregrinossantiago.es/eng/prepar ... on-camino/

Like you I was surprised by the difficulty in finding Mass celebrations along the way. Only recently discovering this, I cannot attest to its reliablilty

 

[jeffnd]

I've been away from the church for almost 15 years. I suppose you could say I was never really in it to begin with. But I want to come back. I know that God doesn't require me to walk, but it is something I require of myself.

 

[lizlane]

As a Roman Catholic, I do hope to walk the Way of St. James. For me, it will be penance for all the bashing I did as a self-righteous Protestant standing in judgement for all the ignorance and contempt I held prior to investigation!

Jeff, google "Year of Faith."

 

[manifestdestinyLISA]

Re: Rugged Road to Kingdom Come.....a long post

oh what a great forum, I have been struggling with this since returning.

I did the pilgrimmage for religious reasons though it seems it is not politically correct-and so I guess Im not very PC :? , started in Lourdes and ended in Fatima after Santiago. Lourdes and Fatima both showed me how much faith and hope people carry...beautiful regardless of touristy shops..

I must say that during the time I did my pilgrimmage I did not meet many practicing Catholics or many who reported doing it for religious reasons, though many agreed they were seekers. Granted I met beautiful people of all belief systems etc and my heart was open to each one, and truly love & heart was the connector overall regardless of spiritual or religious practice. To be fair also, I did meet some pilgrims who also asked to come along with me to church who were not RC to see the mass with open heart and good will.

However, the history and purpose of the camino is pretty clear..onward to the tomb of ST James :arrow: ...It is my opinion that their should be a healthy respect atleast for this and certainly for others who are trying thier best to follow the way religiously or for those who are providing (priests hospitaleros, locals etc)...or why not go to Nepal or FLorida or Egypt or whatever else may or may not be meaningful or "fun" to whatever your personal preferences are..if its about preference :?: ...Very interesting at times to me how yoga etc was more accessible during the day some times then entering a church/chapel...which were often closed :!: Many seekers instead of having opportunity to go to pray...could immerse in yoga :?: Some will argue its the same, better, or that it doesnt matter, but as a previous yoga student & teacher, I can honestly say RC IS different...completely. Grace.

I enjoyed finding masses and averaged about 4 a week including Sundays and tried to stay at parochial alberges as much as possible attend pilgrim blessings etc. I got into a routine of asking as soon as I arrived at alberges where church/mass was. I encountered way more spontaneous new agey situations..and seekers than religious .

I felt such gratitude each time mass was said and I entered a church. I prayed for pilgrims I met along the way, for my family, friends and my camino. I lit lots of candles for all intentions... and offered my communions..

This was a bit difficult for me at times- as once before my reversion- I dabbled in new age and once was a yoga teacher & lived in a Yoga Commune- I know it all too well and perhpas the camino needed to test me.... Its a sensitive topic for me and one I can not address properly online secular forum, its not appropriate or necessary.

THis was my biggest challenge on the camino...I know this has become really widespread....and has become the "norm" and without getting in to deep for the purpose of this forum, I had been hoping to share more of the "religious " experience with other pilgrims too. But more often than not, went to mass alone and toured the little chapels or stopped to pray on my own agenda which actually gave me needed quiet time and God time. This also showed me how important it is for the heart to get the message of love...formality may make it more difficult for some...but HE is working on our heart all of the time if we just let HIM or ask...

I was turned away from the monstary in SAMOS after walking extra miles with another pilgrim (we just wanted to pray in the church)..that was shocking and still dont understand why- we were the only pilgrims after a huge tour bus arrived...stayed at an alberge where all the pilgrims woke up to chanting, incense and serious yoga-I was tried and tempted...pilgrims along the way complained about having to sleep in beds with "crosses over their heads" and also rudely interrupted priests along the way in protest and frustration at parochial alberges who were doing prayer before meals and offering blessing to pilgrims....then the whole topic of witches...which I did not know about until I got to Santiago...there was more witch momentos than St James...so I asked about it and was informed that Galicia has been witch territory also for 1000 years or more. I will say the forests were so enchanted and beautiful, right out of a fairy tale...so for me the challenges were def of spiritual nature, shoes, bedbugs and pack weight were the least of it.

And, my heart was blown open. I see the importance of community in a BIG way...and thats how I see the church...and thats what I see as atleast part of the answer of many of our problems...sharing love and kindeness with humanity! Even professionally, I learned that walking with someone through listening...is more effective and way more organic than trad counseling..or healing. And just how easy it is to fall and how imperfect we, the world etc are...and how purposeful all of our lives are...and each moment is..and every choice...

I found my peace in Adoration Chapels and went to confession 3 times along the way, and found myself confronted and challenged...after all, would it be a pilgrimmage otherwise? I am now home and struggling with my faith-as I met many beautiful souls and all in all we are seekers of Love. I am right now in the process of really digging deep into this "Elephant" because I was moved...in many ways...and open. I met 2 beautiful young men from Israel- who were soooo respectful toward my faith and who also pointed out all the strange displays along the way that they thought could be disrespectful towards God or the RC faith.. it is they who are now in the midst of this crazy strife between Palestine & Israel- I pray and stay in contact...and another beautiful soul with very "shaman-esque" ideas who was seeking & struggling...and as a result really challenged me to think about what I beleive, where Ive been and whats important to me- all through his own questions and troubles...seriously, this was what needed to happen...and I am still sorting it all out...OH, the slippery slope..conviction. I am blessed to have many people of faith around me now and some really good spiritual direction...so the lessons continue..and the REAL healing begins...as I discover that faith and healing are ongoing...and really if I believe in miracles, healing and blessing I must also realize the mystery of it all-and the spiritual battle :roll: !

Open heart leads to growth and spiritual maturity...if I can remain teachable..even in my brokeness and vulnerability I am most capable of loving and being loved...sometimes a step back is needed to move forward..and stopping to rest (in the Lord) and thank the Lord for everything he brings my way..Prayer warriors please throw one up for me as Im a bit spun out post camino storm sandy. And this forum touched a nerve...Be not afraid. Pray, Hope and Don't Worry- Padre Pio....repeat....

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Re: Rugged Road to Kingdom Come.....a long post

I must say that during the time I did my pilgrimmage I did not meet many practicing Catholics or many who reported doing it for religious reasons, though many agreed they were seekers.

Caminocalling, thank you for a most interesting post. I identify with a lot you say. However my own view is that just as there are many routes to Santiago there are many roads to the Kingdom. I rarely quote scripture but your post very much reminded me of these lines from the prophet Micah:

"This is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly, and to walk humbly with your God."

Best regards

John

 

[Abbeydore]

Thank you Lisa for sharing your honest Camino tales & tribulations, I guess it makes us all rethink our own camino's again.........& yes can see why some have to 'go' again & again.

Yes loosing your camera may have been a blessing.

Saying all my prayers in one of the Chapels(behind the altar) in the Cathederal in Santiago was a huge moment for me, tears freely flowing.

Thank you again
David

 

[William Marques]

Re Rugged Road on the Prairie

caminocalling

Thank you for a really interesting post.

On the ragged rugged road to kingdom come.

William

 

[manifestdestinyLISA]

"This is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly, and to walk humbly with your God."

John,

Thank you for sharing this scripture, it sums it up and gets to the point much quicker than my post !

And I also agree there are many ways (Lord knows Ive taken my share of detours- because I am a seeker of truth first!) and camino's ( I hope to experience another!), my hope though is that the options to seek Christian/RC prayer, mass, celebrations, sacraments, housing, etc along the WAY increase as a viable option instead of decrease or lose purpose/meaning all together because its not fashionable or because yoga/eastern med. etc is so wide spread ( there are way more retreats and spiritual adventure tours/journies available around the world & in the states for this). The Camino IS and continues to be even more relevant in some ways to the times we are living in and I hope that does not get watered down or tangled up in relativity. If the camino calls, and the desire in your heart follows-- the numbers of pilgrims continue to increase, people are really searching, seeking and desiring more. The challenge & confrontation of faith/love/suffering/hope/healing/forgiveness is so vital if we are to find it, it must be made available despite popular culture..thats what makes the camino the WAY.

David, I have to go back!! :wink:

 

[sillydoll]

The phenomenon of 'searching' is as old as pilgrimage.
Dr Robert Plötz once wrote:

What was new [ in the 11th century] was that in almost all social classes wandering and searching became a necessity, an everyday occurrence and an ideal. Knights rode off to ' adventures- and sought the grail. Hermits visited one wilderness after another. Travelling priests taught and bore witness to the true apostolic life in one place after another. Even school children and students found themselves on the road to exile and wandering. In an age when trade with distant parts blossomed merchants were constantly on the move.
The peregrinatio ad limina Beati Jacob! represents a turning point 'in the history, of Christian pilgrimage. Not Christ, not the cross and not the church, but Saint James stood at the centre of the cult.
The increased mobility of the society of the High Middle Ages, allied to technical and economic progress, social and legal changes, church initiatives, religious renewal and better hospital care for
pilgrims all conspired to turn the pilgrimage into a mass movement.

 

[nellpilgrim]

I know this sounds naive but I just presumed that for many their religious belief would be the/ or a part of the motivation to make a pilgrimage. I didn't join the forum until after my return from walking the CF...I know how dumb was that! That there was a broader range of motivation on the CF than I had expected was really interesting as was seeing how other pilgrims beliefs/goals sustained their endeavors. I never experienced any negative responses when asking fellow pilgrims, of different or no denominations, if they'd like to come to masses or blessings. We partook of whatever religious (all Catholic on the CF) services were available on the CF and on my current Jakobsweg I pop into whatever church -Protestant or Catholic-I can and receive communion. I use my rosary at wayside shrines, or indeed any place that I feel like praying, as it's something I've used all my life and I'm comfortable with it....'no biggie'! Though I can't use my rosary when I'm walking as I use poles I'm not going to get my underwear in a twist if I'm shy a few Aves! Thus far I've yet to be accused of "rosary rattling' .
If I'm honest I do have to admit to enjoying a quiet pride in my church on the Camino Frances (and honestly as an Irish catholic that was a pretty novel feeling) I really don't think one needs to worry about 'Keeping the Camino Catholic' so much as letting the Camino be catholic (with a small 'c') and accepting and engaging with all fellow pilgrims-no matter if they're 'rosary rattlers' or a knit their own yogurt zen master.
My Catholic practice happens to be the way that I try to bear witness to and honour Christ, but those aims are surely the point of any Christian pilgrimage?

 

[tomandlauren]

I am new to this forum. I was blessed to walk for 4 days (unexpectedly) last fall. I fell in love. I'm planning to return next fall.
Thank you Caminocalling! I'm sure I will profit from all the 'practical' advice that I will glean here but your heart felt words have touched me. For the very short time that I was blessed to walk, I spent much time in prayer and memorizing passages of scripture. I met many people and loved listening to their reasons for walking. I look forward to spending 40 days this time and I look forward to hearing many more pilgrims' stories, everyone seems to have a unique reason to be in the Camino.
Buen Camino

 

[lizlane]

Lisa I wondered how you were!

I AM SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You deserved every moment and I am so glad to know that YOU DID IT!!

I think the spirit of LOVE is what it's all about!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

From the United Church Observer (Canada). The anecdotes are a bit too pat, so they may be composites. The authors search for spirituality resulted in some interesting comments.

Finish This Sentence
If the United Church is serious about attracting more young people . . . we might start by asking why we want them

By Connie denBok

Many ministers dream about church pews filled with 20-somethings. But why do we want them there: Institutional survival? Support of property, program staff and pension plans? Bigger numbers to influence public policy?

I walked the Camino de Santiago, or the Way of St. James, through Portugal and Spain last spring intending to listen to the spiritual conversations of young adults. They were all within spitting distance of 30, some unemployed, some prosperous professionals. Many worked multiple jobs.

My first surprise came from a young American disgusted with the church he knew at home. “It’s not like it used to be a long time ago. I wish there was still a church like that,” he said.

“Like what?” I asked.

“Like it was when there were saints who lived with nothing and didn’t hurt anyone.”

The longing for some mythical age of the saints was a theme I heard repeated, so I asked a leading question of one young Portuguese man denouncing the commercial enterprise at the shrine of Our Lady of Fátima, a centre of Portuguese pride and piety. “What bothers you the most?” I prompted him.

He answered, “Fátima is only for Catholics and for Portuguese, but the Way of St. James is for everyone. James is more ancient.” And then the penny dropped for me. I had stayed overnight in the town of Fátima myself and found a perplexing mixture of Catholicism and Portuguese folk religion. Shops hawked waxen effigies of body parts to burn in a giant grill for prayer.

“Is it like when you copy a key, and make a copy of a copy of a copy until it doesn’t open the door for you anymore?” I asked. “Is your problem with Fátima that it is a copy of a copy of a copy of the faith of Jesus, and it doesn’t open the door to God for you?” He agreed emphatically.

The man began to share a story with another theme that I heard often along the road. He was having spiritual experiences that sounded as if they were lifted from the writings of Christian mystics. He told me a grey mist came over his vision, like a fog, and for a time he lost himself in closeness to God.

I later met a young Dutchman who said he was walking earlier in the day and, filled with such joy, he began to sing for hours in words of a language he did not know. He felt unspeakably close to God — a phenomenon experienced by St. Francis of Assisi and modern Pentecostals.

I also overheard a young Canadian leaving mass at Santiago de Compostela Cathedral, the great Cathedral of Santiago that is the highlight of the pilgrimage route. He remarked, “All I feel is cold and hungry, just like the rest of my trip — and now I remember why I stopped going to church.”

If the United Church is serious about attracting more young people, we will release our controlling grip on the church we love and allow a new generation to rebuild a copy closer to Jesus. We will recognize that the spirit of God is surprising young people on their journeys while the institution of church is distracted by the lesser business of budgets, agendas and our interminable obsession with issues — and that youth who come to church seeking an experience of God sometimes leave deeply disappointed.

In secular Europe, there is a powerful spiritual itch — can Canada be so different? If the United Church is serious about attracting young people, we will recognize that the main attraction is a more ancient way.

 

[jeffnd]

Jeff, google "Year of Faith."

Thanks Liz, I heard about the Year of Faith and I think it's a great thing!

 

[unadara]

I too am being "reeled in". I have been very fortunate in my first Camino Sep 2011 started after a "pilgrimage to Lourdes". I realised that organised religion, in my case Roman Catholic had something to give to me, and I wanted to be able to give back in return. I met many others who sought out Masses, lit candles, said roasaries, many just to get us to the end of the path that day. 2 young men surprised me by their desire to attend services and pray. So I never hesitated to say I'm in here to pray, look for mass times, ask about local saint dedications. I did have to look up about indulgences and holy years etc to understand the meanings behind ancient and all pilgrimages. And I find now my recent involvement in my local parish is essential to my well-being.
I love the open discussion and sharing on this forum.

 

[Tia Valeria]

I am new to this forum. I was blessed to walk for 4 days (unexpectedly) last fall. I fell in love. I'm planning to return next fall.
Thank you Caminocalling! I'm sure I will profit from all the 'practical' advice that I will glean here but your heart felt words have touched me. For the very short time that I was blessed to walk, I spent much time in prayer and memorizing passages of scripture. I met many people and loved listening to their reasons for walking. I look forward to spending 40 days this time and I look forward to hearing many more pilgrims' stories, everyone seems to have a unique reason to be in the Camino.
Buen Camino

Hola and welcome.
When we walked this year we used the devotional material in 'Forty Days' by Gary T Johnson. See the links below:-
http://gryjhnsn.tripod.com/santiago/id14.html
and
http://www.xacobeo.fr/ZF1.04.relig.Johnson_en.htm

We used a print out without pictures along the Camino, to save paper/weight, leaving our full copy at home.

Our reason for being on the Camino is in our blogs and other posts on the forum.
Buen Camino

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The ol' fashined way, Twitter:

The Vatican has made it official: Pope Benedict XVI will grace Twitter.

He will start tweeting on Dec. 12, which is the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

As you'll recall, we initially reported this last month. The 85-year-old Benedict first tweeted from a Vatican account last year but the handle @Pope2YouVatican didn't take off.

The new handle is @pontifex. And you can even ask questions about faith using the hashtag #AskPontifex. The Vatican staff will decide which questions the pope will answer next week in a live tweeting event at the end of his weekly audience.

The pope's main account will be in English, but there will be accounts in other major languages that translate his tweets.
The Pope joins other religious leaders on Twitter including the Dalai Lama (@dalailama) and Rick Warren (@rickwarren). And religious content "punches above its weight," with high levels of engagement, Twitter says.

Here are the stats:

- 90% of head pastors of top 10 mega-churches in the U.S. are on Twitter.

- 99% of the largest 77 religious organizations in the U.S. are on Twitter.

- 93% of the top 150 religious organization in the U.S. are on Twitter.

It makes me wonder why God has not started a page on Facebook...

 

[David]

I think you will find that Everyone is doing a Catholic pilgrimage as the pilgrimage is a Catholic pilgrimage - even atheists, agnostics, muslims, buddhists, hindus, marxists and nothingists are doing a roman Catholic pilgrimage - if they journey along the Camino to Santiago de Compostela - don't you think? :wink:

Buen Camino!

 

[Joe Speetjens]

peregrinolincoln,

I live in Madison, Mississippi and will be starting my first camino on 7 May 2014. I would appreciate and advise that you would be willing to share. Thank you,

Joe
speetjens@mac.com

 

[scruffy1]

The answer to your question is just like my motto for raising children, don't ask a question you don't want to hear the answer to. "Do you want to go to bed now?" "Do you want carrots with your hot dog?" "When can you find time to mow the lawn?"

 

[Olivares]

Not sure ANYBODY can place the line between a pilgrimage and "just a hike" without proper knowledge of the before/ during/ and after of the experience for each and every person walking their Camino. Many that have their bags transferred sure would consider it a fair trade-off given that that they are still carrying their cancer, fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, or asthma. I carried two (2) of these with me on my PILGRIMAGE, but had my bag transferred....which may have looked like "just a hike" to many.

 

[PANO]

I am puzzled. What is a 'Roman Catholic Pilgrimage'? How is it different to any other pilgrimage?

Perhaps the passage of time since I lapsed as a practising Catholic has dulled my memory, but I cannot recall any Catholic teaching on the matter of pilgrimage or how one should be undertaken. Is there something in Catholic theology or canon law that distinguishes how a Catholic might undertake a pilgrimage for it to be regarded as a 'Roman Catholic Pilgrimage'?

The only other explanation that comes readily to mind is that the term provides a distinction between sect specific Christian pilgrimage sites, or perhaps between Christian sites and those of other religions. However, the context of the question does not support this interpretation. Everyone doing a pilgrimage to SDC would be doing a 'Roman Catholic Pilgrimage', and the question would then be meaningless.

Implicit in some responses is the notion that it means to walk as a Catholic (even a lapsed Catholic). This line of thinking would allow the Camino de Santiago to be an Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist or Shinto pilgrimage depending upon the religious faith of the person walking, which clearly it is not.

Is there some other explanation that I haven't found? Can someone explain what a 'Roman Catholic Piligrimage' is that makes it different?

Doug, I share your pattern of thought.
For me, the Camino strictly and absolutely was a personal pursuit of reaching a settlement with myself and to find peace of mind and happiness, some blisters and a tendinites as a result.
I cannot believe this outrageous myth of the dead body of Saint James coming all they way to Santiago to be alive again, nor in any other religious doctrines.
However, I found the Cathedral of SdC an absolutely adequate venue to celebrate the transition from one Camino to another in style, thanks to the RC church. I deeply appreciated their undivided, non-partisan hospitality granted to me non-believer.

 

[lettinggo]

Hola

When I walked the Frances I started it because I felt it would bring me good things which I needed in my life.
Along the way the camino and its history made me sense the spirituality it contains.
At the end, standing before the cathedral, I felt connected to my catholic background in a way new to me.

This story by Rumi both have an elephant and maybe a view on how the camino is different for everyone walking it.

“Some Hindus have an elephant to show.
No one here has ever seen an elephant.
They bring it at night to a dark room.

One by one, we go in the dark and come out
saying how we experience the animal.
One of us happens to touch the trunk.
A water-pipe kind of creature.

Another, the ear. A strong, always moving
back and forth, fan-animal. Another, the leg.
I find it still, like a column on a temple.

Another touches the curve back.
A leathery throne. Another, the cleverest,
feels the tusk. A rounded sword made of porcelain.
He is proud of his description.

Each of us touches one place
and understands the whole in that way.
The palm and the fingers feeling in the dark
are how the senses explore the reality of the elephant.

If each of us held a candle there,
and if we went in together, we could see it.”

Buen Camino
Lettinggo

 

[StuartM]

This is a largely English speaking forum and my experience of the Frances was that most of the English speaking (i.e. native English speaking) pilgrims I met were not doing it for traditionally religious reasons. The exception being most of the Irish people I met seemed to be. On the other hand, of all the Spanish and French people I spoke to, probably the majority had some religious motivation and without generalising, there's a good chance they would have been Catholic.

 

[colinPeter]

I cannot believe ......, nor in any other religious doctrines.

That's why they're called "beliefs".
What you believe doesn't actually make you correct, on either side of the question.
The strength of expressing one's opinion (belief), adds absolutely no weight to the validity of the point in question.
That's why it is probably wise to moderate the way you express them, amongst others who believe differently.
Buen Camino
Colin

 

[DurhamParish]

I think if St. James were to return and anonymously (sp) walk the Camino to Santaigo de Compostella, he would very be pleased with all of the good Christian fellowship that he would encounter along the way . . . . and just as good of fellowship from the non-believers.

 

[grayland]

Please take care to avoid negative comments on the beliefs or non-belief of other members.

The thread will remain open unless the posts continue to cross the line.

Thanks.

 

[StuartM]

However, I found the Cathedral of SdC an absolutely adequate venue to celebrate the transition from one Camino to another in style, thanks to the RC church. I deeply appreciated their undivided, non-partisan hospitality granted to me non-believer.

I thought, as a secular walker, the pilgrim mass was an incredibly generous show by the cathedral. Everyone was welcomed, no creed was asked and the only stipulation if I remember right was that only Catholics took communion. It struck me as much a show of gratitude by the church for those who walked as it was to show gratitude to "who/whatever" from all pilgrims there.

The fellowship on the road regardless of colour, nationality, past, creed or any other fairly arbitrary factor was one of the greatest experiences of my life. Truly liberating few weeks.

 

[Pieces]

Just out of curiosity (it seems to be the IT thing though) but how can a person be flawed and too human ?

 

[Tincatinker]

Perhaps a reference to Neitche's "Human, all to human" containing, amongst many other challenges to conventional philosophy, his attempt to challenge the validity of "Christian" morality as presented by theologians and the churches and to suggest that the concept of a deity was an attempt to avoid moral responsibility.

We can blame the gods, or shame ourselves, never the contrary.

 

[PANO]

Perhaps a reference to Neitche's "Human, all to human" containing, amongst many other challenges to conventional philosophy, his attempt to challenge the validity of "Christian" morality as presented by theologians and the churches and to suggest that the concept of a deity was an attempt to avoid moral responsibility.
We can blame the gods, or shame ourselves, never the contrary.

Tincatinker, you meant of course (Friedrich) Nietzsche's "Human, all too human" (Menschliches, Allzumenschliches). Excellent tip to get the old book from the shelf and read what those far ahead of us have thought, thank you.

 

[Tincatinker]

PANO, thanks. Sometimes this tired old head knows what it wants to say but, not quite, how to say it.

 

[colinPeter]

...Nietzsche's "Human, all too human" (Menschliches, Allzumenschliches). Excellent tip to get the old book from the shelf and read what those far ahead of us have thought, thank you.

What those "those far ahead of us have thought", is just another opinion, much like anything we discuss on the forum.

"I will now disprove the existence of all gods. If there were gods, how could I bear not to be a god? Consequently, there are no gods."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality."
-Albert Einstein

At the end of the day you go with what you are comfortable with, a bit like boots or shoes on the camino.

Buen Camino
Colin