Environmentally Friendly Camino

[CiaraC]

Hi all,

I've trawled through various search results on the forum using buzz terms like "carbon footprint", "recycling" and "sustainability", and it seems these things are (maybe understandably) not high on people's list of concerns when discussing the Camino. This is of course not to trivialise the wonderful discussions that take place regarding all the other important aspects of the Camino, but I'm surprised we don't discuss the environmental impact of our pilgrimages more. Is this perhaps a taboo subject among the forum?

There are certain aspects of participating in the Camino where the environmental impact can't be reduced, e.g. the plane journeys that people have to take from around the world to reach their start-point. I did a quick calculation and the carbon footprint for me to reach SJPdP from home accounts alone for 0.15 metric tons of CO2 being released in the atmosphere.

While people on the forum are very active in encouraging people to "leave no trace" and the act of littering along the Camino is hated and avoided by (thankfully) the majority, are there more ways we can be encouraging pilgrims to be mindful of the environment when making this journey?

Below are a list of suggestions I have for pilgrims in making their Camino a more sustainable one:

• Before starting your Camino, think long and hard about the gear you are bringing. Do plenty of research and discover the stuff that is surplus to requirement before you buy it, bring it, and leave it behind.
  (A selection of abandoned extras I saw after just Day 1 in the albergues in Roncesvalles included: camera tripods, charging banks, water bladders, hairdryers and protein powder just to name a few items...
• Take just what you definitely need (maybe less than you think) and the Camino will provide when you need more.
• Obviously take equipment that is most suitable for you to comfortably complete your Camino. However, do you already have equipment that can be reused rather than buying everything new? The Camino doesn't care if you're wearing the most fashionable, branded items or not, so if you've got some gear that will do the job - make use of it. You will save €€€ and the environment while you're at it.
• Take the most economical option you can to reach your start point. This may be using public transport once you arrive at the airport or sharing a taxi if necessary - I reckon 99% of pilgrims do this anyway because it's cheaper!
• For hydration, invest in a reusable water bottle that can be refilled again and again at the multiple potable water fonts along all the routes.
• Try to avoid disposable cutlery, napkins, etc.. Where they are offered, politely ask for an eco-friendly alternative if possible and decline extras.
• In shops, politely decline disposable plastic bags when offered as standard with every purchase. Chances are, you're just carrying a couple of items from the supermercado back to your albergue, so bring a reusable bag with you or ask a Camino friend to help you carry the stuff. If you do accidentally aquire some plastic bags, make use of them over and over.
• If cooking in the evenings, consider pooling resources with other pilgrims and cooking in bulk. Less time with appliances on means electricity saved and new friends made breaking bread together.
• Wash clothes by hand and on days where there is good wind and sunshine outside where clothes will dry quickly,dry clothes on a clothes line.
• Other misc. little steps you can take as a pilgrim (and in everyday life) include: using a bamboo toothbrush, using solid rather than liquid toiletries (they go farther and use less plastic over their lifetimes), reducing the amount of plastic you buy, investing in reusable equipment (safety razor rather than disposable ones), recycling as much of the waste you generate as you can.

Here are some suggestions for the authorities/business owners/Camino administrators to make the Camino more eco-friendly:

• The authorities already offer reusable bags (the yellow ones available in albergues) for you to collect and bring your rubbish with you to the next available bin. However, I do recall these bags coming wrapped in plastic though which kind of defeated the purpose.
• Albergues should cease the use of disposable bed sheets and pillow cases.
  Many pilgrims like these because they are "hygienic". However, they offer little protection from any infection that could possibly be present on a rubber matress (I'm thinking of the flu virus, etc.), and are more for the convenience of albergues so matresses don't have to be washed down and for the "peace of mind" of pilgrims, even though they already have their "barrier" in the form of their sleeping liner.
  Albergues will continue to hand these out arbitrarily if pilgrims don't begin to decline them (I'm also curious as to whether pilgrims are allowed to decline same? Can anyone elnlighten me as I didn't speak Spanish well enough to attempt to decline these on my last Camino?).
• Shops/albergues could offer refurbished second-hand equipment that has been abandoned along the Camino at a discount. Of course, shops would rather you buy new, and albergues already do allow you to take what has been left behind. However, I think of all the walking poles discarded in SDC that aren't taken back home and think it would be wonderful if there was a system that the poles were cleaned, refurbished and sold again in SJPdP, León, Bilbao, Sarria, etc.. This could similarly work with ponchos and other discarded items that otherwise end up in landfill.
• Encourage more shops to sell products with less packaging. For example, rather than people buying a new mini-bottle of shampoo along the way or refilling from a large one and discarding the surplus, offer pilgrims a way to purchase products by weight/volume from a larger container within the shop. Many sustainable shops have opened around the world offering this, and, as the Camino is a mini-economy in itself, once we as consumers start asking for this, supply will provide.
• Encourage more restaurants to offer vegan/vegetarian options. As most of the food along the Camino is locally produced, it's doing quite well in terms of sustainablilty. To take this a step further, if there is more demand for locally sourced vegan/vegetarian options (eating tofu on the camino is probably worse for the environment overall than eating locally sourced eggs for example), supply will catch up and we can see more veggie dishes along with all the other dishes that people enjoy. For those who do eat meat, they may like to consider opting for a meat-free alternative dish then where tasty ones become available.
  
  
  I welcome any and all thoughts on this list and if others have any suggestions or ideas of how they do their part I'd love to hear them below!

 

[Mugatu]

I’m not sure what type of ponchos are sold in Spain (if there are additives added to increase decomp) , but I would add that to your list. Most of what I’ve seen are one time use items that just end up in the landfill.

I’m not sure if this is the forum to begin such a conversation on conscious consumption, cradle to grave analysis of ultralight equipment, and the such; however, as an ethical industrial designer it’s a topic that tugs at my heart strings... and yes there are some of us on the Camino who are very much aware of our .

 

[Jodean]

This addresses the ladies mainly. The use of a new plastic bag every day to put your toilet paper in that you have used while walking. This can be reduced by using a bandana or a pee rag if you want to call it that. Wash with your laundry. This would save the use of 1000's of plastic ziplock bags each year.

About the washers. Is the use of water more for 3 pilgrims doing a load of laundry together or if all 3 hand washed everything? My guess is that the washer uses less water.

 

[jungleboy]

• Encourage more restaurants to offer vegan/vegetarian options. As most of the food along the Camino is locally produced, it's doing quite well in terms of sustainablilty. To take this a step further, if there is more demand for locally sourced vegan/vegetarian options (eating tofu on the camino is probably worse for the environment overall than eating locally sourced eggs for example), supply will catch up and we can see more lovely veggie dishes along with all the other dishes that people enjoy.

Excellent post and I’m glad you included this point, given that animal agriculture is the No.1 cause of climate change (see links 1, 2, and 3 for supporting documentation), but that this is not widely known. Not eating animal products is the biggest thing an individual can do to help the environment, on or off the camino.

 

[alexwalker]

Good points.

My packing rule: If I know I'll need it, it comes with me. If I think I'll need it, it stays home.

 

[t2andreo]

Not touching this thread with a long, long pole... Too close to politics...

Been burned by that one too often...

'nuff said...

 

[CiaraC]

Not touching this thread with a long, long pole... Too close to politics...

Been burned by that one too often...

'nuff said...

Rest assured any thoughts/disagreements/amendments you have to my above post will be welcome, respected and considered @t2andreo !

I've always found there's no point in only ever having discussions with people who completely agree with me...How else would I learn and be able to see things from new viewpoints?

Politics aside, if you have other ideas or feel that any of my points merit a counter-point, then I'm eager to hear it

P.S. I did sense from the lack of content on this topic on the forum that environmentalism might be a bit of a delicate subject. However, I think as long as people are respectful of others when discussing it and encouraging people to be conscious of their actions, peace can be maintained

In this day and age, it would be a stretch to say that people aren't aware that they are responsible for the choices they make in relation to the environment. Discussing it should be as natural as discussing consideration for people sleeping when leaving albergues early in the morning. Let this be a forum for respectfully encouraging people to be considerate. However, once we cross a line into "policing" people's behavior, I agree that that's not the way to inspire change and fellowship.

 

[Cary]

I like the ideas and sentiments of this post. Only wish my Spanish was better so I could actually communicate these options!

Thanks for sharing these ideas.

 

[Gadflyparexcellence]

Excellent post and I’m glad you included this point, given that animal agriculture is the No.1 cause of climate change (see links 1, 2, and 3 for supporting documentation), but that this is not widely known. Not eating animal products is the biggest thing an individual can do to help the environment, on or off the camino.

Yes, excellent point. Please see the following link:

Avoiding meat and dairy is 'single biggest way' to ... - The Guardian

Unfortunately diet in the West has for centuries been meat-based. An ethical and planet-friendly diet that informed Eastern traditions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism etc never caught the imagination of Western traditions. Only now we have been awakened to its virtues, including a realization of what consuming animal products are doing to our bodies as well to the planet.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Good points.

My packing rule: If I know I'll need it, it comes with me. If I think I'll need it, it stays home.

Yup. That's my method!

 

[Anniesantiago]

Hi all,

I've trawled through various search results on the forum using buzz terms like "carbon footprint", "recycling" and "sustainability", and it seems these things are not high on people's list of concerns when discussing the Camino. This is of course not to trivialise the wonderful discussions that take place regarding all the other important aspects of the Camino, but I'm surprised we don't discuss the environmental impact of our pilgrimages more. Is this perhaps a taboo subject among the forum?

There are certain aspects of participating in the Camino where the environmental impact can't be reduced, e.g. the plane journeys that people have to take from around the world to reach their start-point. I did a quick calculation and the carbon footprint for me to reach SJPdP from home accounts alone for 0.15 metric tons of CO2 being released in the atmosphere.

While people on the forum are very active in encouraging people to "leave no trace" and the act of littering along the Camino is hated and avoided by (thankfully) the majority, are there more ways we can be encouraging pilgrims to be mindful of the environment when making this journey?

Below are a list of suggestions I have for pilgrims in making their Camino a more sustainable one:

• Before starting your Camino, think long and hard about the gear you are bringing. Do plenty of research and discover the stuff that is surplus to requirement before you buy it, bring it, and leave it behind.
  (A selection of abandoned extras I saw after just Day 1 in the albergues in Roncesvalles included: camera tripods, charging banks, water bladders, hairdryers and protein powder just to name a few items...
• Take just what you definitely need (maybe less than you think) and the Camino will provide when you need more.
• Obviously take equipment that is most suitable for you to comfortably complete your Camino. However, do you already have equipment that can be reused rather than buying everything new? The Camino doesn't care if you're wearing the most fashionable, branded items or not, so if you've got some gear that will do the job - use it. You will save €€€ and the environment while you're at it.
• Take the most economical option you can to reach your start point. This may be using public transport once you arrive at the airport or sharing a taxi if necessary - I reckon 99% of pilgrims do this anyway because it's cheaper!
• When hydrating, use a reusable water bottle that can be refilled again and again at the multiple potable water fonts along the route. There is really no excuse for routinely purchasing disposable bottled water along the Way in a developed country with a potable water supply - convince me I'm wrong.
• It's not much of a problem in Spain where coffee is served in a proper coffee cup rather than disposable cups, but where disposable cups are offered, politely ask for a reusable cup. The same goes for avoiding disposable cutlery, napkins, etc.; where they are offered as the norm, politely ask for an eco-friendly alternative if possible and decline extras.
• In shops, politely decline disposable plastic bags which are offered as standard with every purchase. Chances are, you're just carrying a couple of items from the supermercado back to your albergue, so bring a reusable bag with you or ask a Camino friend to help you carry the stuff! If you do accidentally aquire some plastic bags, make use of them over and over.
• If cooking in the evenings, consider pooling resources with other pilgrims and cooking in bulk. Less time with appliances on means electricity saved and new friends made breaking bread together.
• Washing clothes in the evenings: on days where there is good wind and sunshine outside where clothes will dry quickly, there is again little excuse for not washing and drying manually.
• Other misc. little steps you can take as a pilgrim (and in everyday life) include: using a bamboo toothbrush, using solid rather than liquid toiletries (they go farther and use less plastic over their lifetimes), reducing the amount of plastic you buy, investing in reusable equipment (safety razor rather than disposable ones), recycling as much of the waste you generate as you can.

Here are some suggestions for the authorities/business owners/Camino administrators to make the Camino more eco-friendly:

• The authorities already offer reusable bags (the yellow ones available in albergues) for you to collect and bring your rubbish with you to the next available bin. Avail of one of these (or bring one from home if you already have a reuasble bag), use it for laundy, trips to the shop, etc.
  I do recall these bags coming wrapped in plastic though which kind of defeated the purpose.
• Albergues should cease the use of disposable bed sheets and pillow cases.
  Many pilgrims like these because they are "hygienic". However, they offer little protection from any infection that could possibly be present on a rubber matress (I'm thinking of the flu virus, etc.), and are more for the convenience of albergues so matresses don't have to be washed down and for the "peace of mind" of pilgrims who already have their "barrier" in the form of their sleeping liner.
  Again, convince me if I'm wrong but I see no evidence that these are anything but an unnecessary waste. Albergues will continue to hand these out arbitrarily if pilgrims don't begin to decline them (I'm also curious as to whether pilgrims are ALLOWED to decline same? Can anyone elnlighten me as I didn't speak Spanish well enough to attempt to decline these on my last Camino?).
• Shops/albergues should offer refurbished second-hand equipment that has been abandoned along the Camino at a discount. Of course, shops would rather you buy new and albergues allow you to take what has been left behind. However, I think of all the walking poles discarded in SDC that aren't taken back home and think it would be wonderful if there was a system that the poles were cleaned, refurbished and sold again in SJPdP, León, Bilbao, Sarria, etc.. This could similarly work with ponchos and other discarded items that otherwise end up in landfill.
• Encourage more shops to sell products with less packaging. For example, rather than people buying a new mini-bottle of shampoo along the way or refilling from a large one and discarding the surplus, offer pilgrims a way to purchase products by weight/volume from a larger container within the shop. Many sustainable shops have opened around the world offering this, and, as the Camino is a mini-economy in itself, once we as consumers start asking for this, supply will provide.
• Encourage more restaurants to offer vegan/vegetarian options. As most of the food along the Camino is locally produced, it's doing quite well in terms of sustainablilty. To take this a step further, if there is more demand for locally sourced vegan/vegetarian options (eating tofu on the camino is probably worse for the environment overall than eating locally sourced eggs for example), supply will catch up and we can see more lovely veggie dishes along with all the other dishes that people enjoy.
  
  
  I welcome any and all thoughts on this list and if others have any suggestions or ideas of how they do their part I'd love to hear them below!

Here is my thought.
I'm not Spanish.
I do not live or work in Spain.
I'm going to leave the politics to those who live and work there.
I'll just go as a polite visitor, pick up my trash, pick up my toilet paper, and enjoy what food they put in front of me. There are plenty of markets where you can buy locally produced food without plastic. Strict vegetarians have the option of cooking for themselves.
It's a pilgrimage, and not designed for our comfort - in fact, designed to push us out of our comfort levels, in my opinion.
Too many demands make it something different.

 

[alexwalker]

Here is my thought.
I'm not Spanish.
I do not live or work in Spain.
I'm going to leave the politics to those who live and work there.
I'll just go as a polite visitor, pick up my trash, pick up my toilet paper, and enjoy what food they put in front of me. There are plenty of markets where you can buy locally produced food without plastic. Strict vegetarians have the option of cooking for themselves.
It's a pilgrimage, and not designed for our comfort - in fact, designed to push us out of our comfort levels, in my opinion.
Too many demands make it something different.

Hear, hear, veteran. Salute.

 

[t2andreo]

Rest assured any thoughts/disagreements/amendments you have to my above post will be welcome, respected and considered @t2andreo !

I've always found there's no point in only ever having discussions with people who completely agree with me...How else would I learn and be able to see things from new viewpoints?

Politics aside, if you have other ideas or feel that any of my points merit a counter-point, then I'm eager to hear it

P.S. I did sense from the lack of content on this topic on the forum that environmentalism might be a bit of a delicate subject. However, I think as long as people are respectful of others when discussing it and encouraging people to be conscious of their actions, peace can be maintained

In this day and age, it would be a stretch to say that people aren't aware that they are responsible for the choices they make in relation to the environment. Discussing it should be as natural as discussing consideration for people sleeping when leaving albergues early in the morning. Let this be a forum for respectfully encouraging people to be considerate. However, once we cross a line into "policing" people's behavior, I agree that that's not the way to inspire change and fellowship.

I understand everything you say. And I respect your efforts to have a dialog with others.

But you need to understand that the Forum operates under a strict set of rules. The rules are more slanted to a very sensitive dynamic for people who offend very easily.

We have a colloquial term or two over here for folks with such heightened sensitivities. But even using those descriptive terms has been cause for me being placed on probation. Even the mere perception of offense, by anyone, has been enough to get me in trouble in the past.

The rough and tumble, First Amendment (in the US) absolute right to say whatever you want does not exist. The Forum rules are not unreasonable. But they are strictly applied. The moderators watch the ebb and flow of Forum posts very carefully. I would NOT want to be one of them.

So, I have learned by being burned too many times to recognize topics that I should just steer clear of.

I wish you well...

 

[CiaraC]

I understand everything you say. And I respect your efforts to have a dialog with others.

But you need to understand that the Forum operates under a strict set of rules. The rules are more slanted to a very sensitive dynamic for people who offend very easily.

We have a colloquial term or two over here for folks with such heightened sensitivities. But even using those descriptive terms has been cause for me being placed on probation. Even the mere perception of offense, by anyone, has been enough to get me in trouble in the past.

The rough and tumble, First Amendment (in the US) absolute right to say whatever you want does not exist. The Forum rules are not unreasonable. But they are strictly applied. The moderators watch the ebb and flow of Forum posts very carefully. I would NOT want to be one of them.

So, I have learned by being burned too many times to recognize topic that I should just steer clear of.

I wish you well...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts @t2andreo and I respect where you're coming from in terms of preffering not to engage in a topic that can be contentious if people don't tread carefully on either side.

Here is my thought.
I'm not Spanish.
I do not live or work in Spain.
I'm going to leave the politics to those who live and work there.
I'll just go as a polite visitor, pick up my trash, pick up my toilet paper, and enjoy what food they put in front of me. There are plenty of markets where you can buy locally produced food without plastic. Strict vegetarians have the option of cooking for themselves.
It's a pilgrimage, and not designed for our comfort - in fact, designed to push us out of our comfort levels, in my opinion.
Too many demands make it something different.

Thanks also @Anniesantiago for your thoughts and I agree with your course of action to "just go as a polite visitor" and enjoy the Camino without leaving a trace. My initial post listing suggestions for how pilgrims and the authorities can make the Camino more environmentally sustainable were not meant to be read as "demands", rather as suggestions as I have posted.

As for politics, my post is not intended as a call to arms or as an agenda in relation to what happens or doesn't happen in Spain. We as pilgrims are all "polite visitors" to this beautiful part of the world. However, it would be irresponsible on our parts if we were to ignore the fact that pilgrim numbers have risen exponentially over the past number of years and this puts a huge strain on the local resources in Spain and, yes, on its local and wider environment. We already discuss on this forum some of the impacts this has, such as litter and discarded tissues on the trail and ways to avoid this. My intention is to elaborate (via this thread) that there are further impacts, such as increased disposable plastic use (and discarding) on the Camino from some of the sources I have listed above, and to start a discussion on this in one thread for anybody interested in the topic.

If we want the Camino to stay beautiful and for our grandchildren to experience it like we do, we need to start reflecting on how to make it more sustainable. Purchasing numerous plastic disposables on the Camino does leave a trace as pilgrims (albeit maybe not one that is immediately visible to us). Some may not be interested in the consequence of this and I respect their right to choose not to change their habits. However, for those interested in being a more eco-friendly pilgrim, I hope this thread will provide some ideas.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I’m not sure what type of ponchos are sold in Spain (if there are additives added to increase decomp) , but I would add that to your list. Most of what I’ve seen are one time use items that just end up in the landfill.

I’m not sure if this is the forum to begin such a conversation on conscious consumption, cradle to grave analysis of ultralight equipment, and the such; however, as an ethical industrial designer it’s a topic that tugs at my heart strings... and yes there are some of us on the Camino who are very much aware of our .

I do not know how you define the term 'ultra light equipment', but gear formally defined as such are not light use or fragile or disposable. As someone who gets paid to test backpacking and other outdoor gear, terminology needs to tread carefully and be precise.

Example: My poncho weighs under 4 ounces / 112 gr and is considered ultra lightweight by definition. It has now traveled over 1700 miles with me on backpacking trips and on Camino.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Yes, excellent point. Please see the following link:

Avoiding meat and dairy is 'single biggest way' to ... - The Guardian

Unfortunately diet in the West has for centuries been meat-based. An ethical and planet-friendly diet that informed Eastern traditions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism etc never caught the imagination of Western traditions. Only now we have been awakened to its virtues, including a realization of what consuming animal products are doing to our bodies as well to the planet.

And I reject that notion that diet choices elevate one as being more moral or ethical and others as less ethical or less moral..

 

[Mugatu]

I do not know how you define the term 'ultra light equipment', but gear formally defined as such are not light use or fragile or disposable. As someone who gets paid to test backpacking and other outdoor gear, terminology needs to tread carefully and be precise.

Example: My poncho weighs under 4 ounces / 112 gr and is considered ultra lightweight by definition. It has now traveled over 1700 miles with me on backpacking trips and on Camino.

When I’m speaking of ultralight I’m not referring to the ponchos, but the industry itself... and yes when referring to ponchos, it’s often been thrown around that you can pick up a poncho somewhere along your Camino; while some may be well made the majority that’s being marketed on the Camino aren’t and end up being thrown away at the end of it.

As a whole the ultralight community has yet to address it’s position in this non circular economy, while some gear depending on its intended use may see some mileage, others don’t see the longevity that rationalizes the refinement of raw materials (petroleum) to make a product that only last one thru-hike or even 1-2 years. I know plenty of section hikers and thru-hikers that go through packs, whether it be from holes or stitch failures from a study I conducted for an undisclosed brand.

I can keep going on with this in regards to intended stakeholders and those who actually use this gear with respects to durability and why most of these products don’t hold up or fail sooner than they should.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

When I’m speaking of ultralight I’m not referring to the ponchos, but the industry itself... and yes when referring to ponchos, it’s often been thrown around that you can pick up a poncho somewhere along your Camino; while some may be well made the majority that’s being marketed on the Camino aren’t and end up being thrown away at the end of it.

As a whole the ultralight community has yet to address it’s position in this non circular economy, while some gear depending on its intended use may see some mileage, others don’t see the longevity that rationalizes the refinement of raw materials (petroleum) to make a product that only last one thru-hike or even 1-2 years. I know plenty of section hikers and thru-hikers that go through packs, whether it be from holes or stitch failures from a study I conducted for an undisclosed brand.

I can keep going on with this in regards to intended stakeholders and those who actually use this gear with respects to durability and why most of these products don’t hold up or fail sooner than they should.

You have mixed several things into a big bowl. Of course hard used gear on section and thru hikes develop holes and tears. It also happens to heavy gear like my old Camp Trails backpack. That does not make it disposable. I see and handle the gear, and and my job is testing for issues related to failures to help manufacturers understand where a product might fall short.

I have problems with your generalizations; they are far from what I have found with the work I do and the equipment I personally use.. There is not one piece of gear that I threw away after 5.5 months on the Pacific Crest Trail, nor did I run into others who had the kind of failures that you claim are routine and then make them throwaway. When I gather with other thru-hikers and we look at our gear and compare, no one is talking about bad gear that failed prematurely.

The ultralight gear price points are higher than average, sometimes very high. Folks are not going to buy this stuff if it is as fragile as you claim. And the reviews on this stuff would be smoking hot with letting potential buyers to avoid any that won't last normal use.

I do agree with your observations about the fragile nature of all of the Euro Store type ponchos. My problem is not with the disposability, though; it is with how they are sometimes just dumped as litter instead of being properly disposed of in a bin.

 

[CiaraC]

And I reject that notion that diet choices elevate one as being more moral or ethical and others as less ethical or less moral..

Morals and ethics are personal things. I agree that one person's values being different from another's doesn't make them blanketly wrong. None of us are in an elevated position to judge another. However, we can all decide where we lie on the spectrum about an issue and respectfully differ from those on the other end of the spectrum to us.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Morals and ethics are personal things. I agree that one person's values being different from another's doesn't make them blanketly wrong. None of us are in an elevated position to judge another. However, we can all decide where we lie on the spectrum about an issue and respectfully differ from those on the other end of the spectrum to us.

Then you'd better review what was written in the post to which I replied. It was thick with value judgments.

 

[Mugatu]

You have mixed several things into a big bowl and decided to call it something it is not. Of course hard used gear on section and thru hikes develop holes and tears. It also happens to heavy gear like my old Camp Trails backpack. That does not make it disposable. I see and handle the gear, and and my job is testing for issues related to failures to help manufacturers understand where a product might fall short.

Your generalizations are BS and not consistent with the work I do and the equipment I personally use.. There is not one piece of gear that I threw away after 5.5 months on the Pacific Crest Trail, nor did I run into others who had the kind of failures that you claim are routine and then make them throwaway. When I gather with other thru-hikers and we look at our gear and compare, no one is talking about bad gear that failed prematurely.

The ultralight gear price points are higher than average, sometimes very high. Folks are not going to buy this stuff if it is as fragile as you claim. And the reviews on this stuff would be smoking hot with letting potential buyers to avoid any that won't last normal use.

What was mixed, the fact is many people who purchased ponchos on the Camino threw them away once reaching Santiago, witness it my self, full stop.

There was tons of data from out sample group putting holes and stitching coming undone on some of their packs before completion of their thru-hikes. Some may be harder on their gear, some easier,but that goes without saying and Thats great you test stuff but YOU are not the general public who has begun to buy ultra light gear because it being touted as what you should be using hence it’s not being used as intended.

 

[C clearly]

@CiaraC has outlined many important considerations that apply to our lives, on or off the camino. I agree with most of them and like to think that I am slowly making my life style more eco-friendly. But in this case I feel as if I am being lectured to. Communication is not so well-received or effective if it is presented in this way. For example,

there is really no excuse

This is judgmental in its manner, almost by definition. What is an "excuse" if not a "reason" judged to be acceptable. I may agree in many cases that there is no excuse, but to claim I'm not making a judgement is simply not true.

I did sense from the lack of content on this topic on the forum that environmentalism might be a bit of a delicate subject.

Almost any "-ism" is a delicate subject, as its meaning suggests doctrine.

my post is not intended as a call to arms or as an agenda in relation to what happens or doesn't happen in Spain.

Maybe not a call to "arms," but certainly some kind of call to something, given the "suggestions for the authorities/business owners/Camino administrators."

 

[CiaraC]

@CiaraC has outlined many important considerations that apply to our lives, on or off the camino. I agree with most of them and like to think that I am slowly making my life style more eco-friendly. But in this case I feel as if I am being lectured to. Communication is not so well-received or effective if it is presented in this way. For example,

This is judgmental in its manner, almost by definition. What is an "excuse" if not a "reason" judged to be acceptable. I may agree in many cases that there is no excuse, but to claim I'm not making a judgement is simply not true.

Almost any "-ism" is a delicate subject, as its meaning suggests doctrine.

Maybe not a call to "arms," but certainly something a call to something, given the "suggestions for the authorities/business owners/Camino administrators."

Thanks for your reply @C clearly and I take on board your points. I will edit my original post to take out the part of there being "no excuse" for using disposable plastic water bottles. I apologise if my language crossed into the judgemental territory, which is what I was definitely trying to avoid. My intention is to help inspire, not to alienate.

 

[C clearly]

I will edit my original post to take out the part of there being "no excuse" ... My intention is to help inspire, not to alienate.

Fair enough. Most of us are trying in some imperfect way to make improvements, so language that communicates humility is more inspirational.

 

[CiaraC]

Fair enough. Most of us are trying in some imperfect way to make improvements, so language that communicates humility is more inspirational.

Agreed and I'm imperfect at communication at times

 

[Deleted member 67185]

What was mixed, the fact is many people who purchased ponchos on the Camino threw them away once reaching Santiago, witness it my self, full stop.

There was tons of data from out sample group putting holes and stitching coming undone on some of their packs before completion of their thru-hikes. Some may be harder on their gear, some easier,but that goes without saying and Thats great you test stuff but YOU are not the general public who has begun to buy ultra light gear because it being touted as what you should be using hence it’s not being used as intended.

No, I am not the general public, I am part of those who are trained and professionally evaluate and test this stuff looking for failures. All of the failures you describe, I have seen in gear that was NOT ultralight, made from heavier fabrics and stitching techniques and threads, and zippers, frame fasteners and welds ,etc.

You say you look at data; well I am looking at the QA process and the evaluations and the gear itself. I am in conferences going over the details and talking with other evaluators to gauge their experiences.

Your data sets are skewed if thru and section hiking is the basis for evaluation. Any gear used on a thru-hike is being put through the levels of wear and tear that is not normal. It is akin to running tests designed to put gear and clothing through accelerated multi-year testing. A thru-hike lasting 4 to 6 months is not the same as using a piece of gear for 4 to 6 months on weekend hikes.

An example of this are my two different ULA Circuit backpacks. The one pack I used for most of my PCT and Colorado Trail thru-hikes has a lot of scuffs and wear and a few holes which are patched. My other ULA Circuit pack that I use for weekends and periodic multi-day backpacking trips, which is a year older than my PCT ULA Circuit, has no real damage other than a few scuffs and dirt-stained areas.

The Circuit used on the PCT was what ULA provided to me for testing. I purchased the other Circuit the year before. I also use a Gossamer Gear Mariposa, which is the one that went with me on my 2017 and 2018 Caminos.

If someone can afford ultralight gear, than I encourage them to do so. If they do not have the budget, then I don't. Since I judge value by dividing the cost of the gear into the mileage I put on it, I wouldn't invest in gear that is prone to easy damage.

 

[Mugatu]

That’s exactly the point, our test group ranged from enthusiast to professionals, all with a different level of skill sets because that’s what the brand was targeting and in the end, that’s the reality of the consumer market that’s out on the trails...those who are and those aspiring to be. You represent a small niche within this population that does not represent the whole, and to test as such would be skewed. Take this forum for instance, recommendations for packs are often thrown around, GG would be a good example, what percentage of individuals here do you believe would know how to handle and take care of such a pack, I won’t even consider how groomed of a trail the Camino is.

 

[C clearly]

Not touching this thread with a long, long pole... Too close to politics...
Been burned by that one too often...
'nuff said...

But I have no doubt you are following along with anticipation.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

That’s exactly the point, our test group ranged from enthusiast to professionals, all with a different level of skill sets because that’s what the brand was targeting and in the end, that’s the reality of the consumer market that’s out on the trails...those who are and those aspiring to be. You represent a small niche within this population that does not represent the whole, and to test as such would be skewed. Take this forum for instance, recommendations for packs are often thrown around, GG would be a good example, what percentage of individuals here do you believe would know how to handle and take care of such a pack, I won’t even consider how groomed of a trail the Camino is.

So which is it? That this gear breaks down from thru-hikes so it becomes useless, or that it survives because thru-hikers are a super special cohort which protects this type of gear with their super special knowledge?

You'e missed the entire point. Because the typical user doesn't put the kind of wear and tear on that gear that thru hikers do, there is an even better outcome and longevity which can translate to years of use. A thru-hiker is covering 2650+ miles on the Pacific Crest Trail over a 5 or 6 month period. How many years will it take a regular person to put on that many miles during their backpacking trips? The gear holds up fine.

As far as GG backpacks go, they do well with novice users, as do ULA, zPacks, MLD, et al. They don't require delicate care or special handling.

What you claim is a small niche is not reality. The gear sells to all experience levels of backpackers. In fact a lot of the PCT thru hiker population are not very experienced when they start.

Now please, provide the cites or reviews to support this huge level of failure to GG or any other gear by the general public. I imagine, given your viewpoints, that even Google must be filled with negative reviews.

 

[grayland]

Gently folks. Please read your post before you hit the "post reply" button.
The conversation is leaning very close to confrontation....
The forum rules prohibit all rude and confrontational posts.
Everyone is welcome to express an opinion on a topic as long as it is courteous and respects the opinions of other members.

Please do not be the cause of the closing of this thread..

 

[LesR]

Below are a list of suggestions I have for pilgrims in making their Camino a more sustainable one:

If this is how you wish to walk your Camino - please go ahead...

I have no problems with many of your suggestions and my actions are consistent with many of them.

However I do not wish to be lectured on how I can solve your problems. Until you know that I share your expectations in terms of "mindfulness of the environment", it is lecturing...

 

[dougfitz]

Two thoughts:

1. It might be useful to remind ourselves how easy it is to assume we know what is best for others without any real understanding of their circumstances.
2. This may be a place for offering our opinions, but I find that it is more useful to give advice when asked, not providing it without invitation.

 

[grayland]

Two thoughts:

1. It might be useful to remind ourselves how easy it is to assume we know what is best for others without any real understanding of their circumstances.
2. This may be a place for offering our opinions, but I find that is more useful to give advice when asked, not providing it without invitation.

Thank you Doug.

 

[Mugatu]

So which is it? That this gear breaks down from thru-hikes so it becomes useless, or that it survives because thru-hikers are a super special cohort which protects this type of gear with their super special knowledge?

You'e missed the entire point. Because the typical user doesn't put the kind of wear and tear on that gear that thru hikers do, there is an even better outcome and longevity which can translate to years of use. A thru-hiker is covering 2650+ miles on the Pacific Crest Trail over a 5 or 6 month period. How many years will it take a regular person to put on that many miles during their backpacking trips? The gear holds up fine.

As far as GG backpacks go, they do well with novice users, as do ULA, zPacks, MLD, et al. They don't require delicate care or special handling.

What you claim is a small niche is not reality. The gear sells to all experience levels of backpackers. In fact a lot of the PCT thru hiker population are not very experienced when they start.

Now please, provide the cites or reviews to support this huge level of failure to GG or any other gear by the general public. I imagine, given your viewpoints, that even Google must be filled with negative reviews.

I made no mention of of breakdown rendering the gear useless or huge failure, you are conflating my statement on durability. The fact is going lighter comes at a cost which I won’t elaborate on, and to state that special care and attention is not needed is in respects to UL gear is plain wrong.

Without violating my NDA and proving you with data from one of our widely known users...I’ll leave it at this... I offer the readers of this to make their own determinations and encourage them to read the disclaimers that these UL companies have regarding their gear. Go on other forums BPL or WB and read on longevity and make your own determination on lifespan vs carbon footprint.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I made no mention of of breakdown rendering the gear useless or huge failure, you are conflating my statement on durability. The fact is going lighter comes at a cost which I won’t elaborate on, and to state that special care and attention is not needed is in respects to UL gear is plain wrong.

Without violating my NDA and proving you with data from one of our widely known users...I’ll leave it at this... I offer the readers of this to make their own determinations and encourage them to read the disclaimers that these UL companies have regarding their gear. Go on other forums BPL or WB and read on longevity and make your own determination on lifespan vs carbon footprint.

1. Please provide links to those sites so that folks can find what it is you are referring to.

2. Lightweight gear, like the ULA or GG backpacks do not need special care or feeding than any other backpack. There are no special secrets on wearing them or fitting them.

3. I do not defend, in general, any one company or specific item within the entire community of lightweight gear. There are some that I do not like and would tell folks to avoid. Just as I would with any category of manufacturing from toasters to cars.

What I am responding to is a general attack on an entire category of backpacking gear.

You say I am conflating the issue of premature failure or wear. I do not believe such is the case. I am following the logical endpoint of your argument where there are a limited number of reasons why someone would dispose of a piece of gear.

One reason someone would purchase a replacement bit of gear, like a backpack, would be because of fit or comfort issues. To a lesser extent it may be because of wanting additional features, style, or even colors. Those issues are the same regardless of product and are not unique to lightweight gear, so that is hardly a legitimate criticism.

The biggest factor for premature disposal would be failure or severe damage. If someone is spending money, say, on a Gossamer Gear backpack and after wearing it it hasn't become badly damaged or fails, then it would still be used, right? I do not know anyone who bins a pack prematurely if it is usable. Unless the gear is breaking down and becoming useless, why would anyone stop using it, or throw it out, or whatever is the case that creates what you define as longevity issues?

What I do know with certainty, is that novice backpackers who have chosen heavier gear like Mystery Ranch, and are weighed down with 45 pounds of 'normal' gear, have a higher likelihood of either abandoning backpacking or spending more money to get lightweight gear to replace the regular stuff. That means they are increasing their consumer purchases for the same gear.

So, if you're complaint isn't about failures or breakdowns, then what is the issue?

The primary factor which moved gear into the lightweight arena was technology, including fabrics. The old pack cloth nylon and canvas fabrics used in backpacks in the 1970's and in some cases (not canvas) is still being used by a few companies today. Not only are they not as tough as the modern ripstop nylons like Dyneema X ripstop used by companies like ULA. But the new Dyneema ripstop nylons weigh less than half of the weight per yard.

The weight difference of just the fabric pushed most packs into the lightweight range. The fabric is tougher, too.

Then the other factor are the load designs.

Backpack frames are designed for specific loads. Mystery Ranch backpacks, which can weigh up to 8 pounds, are designed to carry up to 70 and 80 pounds wildfire suppression gear, or quarters of elk or deer from hunting.

Backpacking gear today weighs far less than the typical 55 or 60 pound load for a 10 day backpacking trip that most of us would carry up until the last 15 years. Again, design and technologies changed that. For example, what used to be a 'light' stove like the Svea which weighed around 24 ounces, has been surpassed by better performing stoves, like the Kovea, which weigh under 3 ounces. Tough little buggers, too.

As a result, that same gear load-out today weighs 23 pounds. And backpacks have been designed around this change. So the big and heavy external frames became internal carbon fiber and thermoplastic frame sheets, fiberglass frames, and aluminum stays. In general, comfort and performance has increased.

As an environmental issue, I'm just not seeing a legitimate argument for lightweight gear being a bad thing.

.

 

[naplesdon]

Of the 100's and 100's of thousands of people who set foot on some tiny part of the numerous Caminos every year, not just the 375,000 who finish in Santiago, I really wish they were all as environmentally conscious as I feel I am. Ha!
I am one of those pilgrims who tries to make a second pilgrimage every year and comes back to help with the annual Ditch Pig clean-up, but that is not enough.
I often make sarky comments to fellow pilgrims who I see trashing our Camino and it doesn't make me very popular some days. I don't preach; it not worth my time. I just say things like, "Who did you expect to pick up that shit you just tossed in the weeds? You ass hole."
There are a majority of pilgrims who respect the Camino environment, I would like to believe it is only a small minority of insensitive jerks that do not; and, you know, they are probably jerks in the real world as well. Can't do anything about that.

 

[SacredSteps]

Two thoughts:

1. It might be useful to remind ourselves how easy it is to assume we know what is best for others without any real understanding of their circumstances.
2. This may be a place for offering our opinions, but I find that is more useful to give advice when asked, not providing it without invitation.

Best advice of the day!