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First Camino - Final word on bed bug spray, permethrin!

LTfit

Veteran Member
I have read lots of posts about bed bugs and heard various opinions about how to treat and or avoid those nasty creatures - spray your bed, your pack (hang it up), etc.

As I will be walking in July and plan on only bringing a bed liner and staying in refugios what is the best and safest option :?:

Do I spray all my clothes and pack at home or spray bed at each stop :?: And how to you treat bed bugs if you are so unfortunate as to get them :?:

Any suggestions (for those living in Europe-Holland) on best type of spray :?:

Thanks again for all you great advice!

Cheers,
LTfit (unexperienced pelegrina)
 
D

Deleted member 3000

Guest
Follow the instructions that come with the permethrin. Spray the outside of your sleeping bag and pack. Permethrin is used on livestock, but not approved for skin application to humans. Interesting. There is no need to take any on the pilgrimage, and you are not likely to pick up bedbugs. Bedbugs may attack limbs that are outside of a permethrin-treated sleeping bag. If you are worried about that, it is probably best to take some DEET insect repellent with you and apply it to head, arms, and feet (if it is hot and you stick your feet out). Some people have a bad reaction to DEET, so test yourself before you go. Most DEET liquids will dissolve paint and cause some plastics to bubble. I have a Casio watch with no markings from exposure to Off! liquid.
 

lynnejohn

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances(2005), VDLP(2007), Madrid(2009), Ingles(2009), Sur (2011), VDLP(2011)-partial, VDLP(2014)
I have also been reading all the material - with thanks to those who posted it, and do want to spray my gear before going. However....

Permethrin is not approved by Health Canada and I have been frustrated trying to find out
a)why, and
b)can I bring it into Canada for personal use without being arrested by the RCMP

For a little more info if you want some gov-speak, see this explanation:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pu ... in-eng.asp

At least I've got time to figure out how to get it...

lynne
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2006,08,09,11,12(2),13(2),14,16(2),18(2) Aragones 11,12,VDLP 11,13,Lourdes 12,Malaga 16,Port 06
It's not approved because it's dangerous and toxic as heck!
Besides, you can't carry it on the plane.

Just go to any farmacia when you get to Spain and buy mosquito spray.
You do NOT have to spray all your gear... just lightly mist your bed.
You'll figure it out...
 

Hazenklager

New Member
Please, do not poison yourself by getting into contact with Permethrin.
You might as well spray yourself with DDT !
The solution is very simple.
Use the product AUTAN like millions of other people.
It is insect repellent, reliable, protects you from flies, mosquitos and ticks.
Just surf the internet and find the website. It offers you good advice on preventive measures.
There is an enormous amount of information to be found on the net, including reports from consumer test panels and so on.
Just walk into any pharmacy in Holland and you will find it there for about 8 Euro.
Even the outdoor chain of sport shops Beversport carries it in their stock.
Buen Camino.
 
D

Deleted member 3000

Guest
From the Canadian Forces:

Questions and Answers: The Safety of Permethrin in Combat Clothing

What is permethrin?

Permethrin is a synthetic pyrethroid insecticide. One of its uses is to control and repel many types of insects such as mosquitoes and ticks. While man-made, it is similar to naturally-occurring pyrethroids that are found in flowers such as chrysanthemums.

In Canada, there are many registered uses of permethrin deemed by Health Canada to be safe and effective including agriculture (for use on crops and animals), for household products (e.g. to control biting flies, wasps and hornets, cockroaches, spiders) and for medications that are applied to the skin to treat lice and scabies in humans. There is a good chance that you have pest control products containing permethrin around your house.

I have heard that permethrin is not approved for use on clothing in Canada. Is this true?

At this time, there is no product approved by Health Canada for civilian use that applies permethrin to clothing. This is primarily because no manufacturer had asked for such approval prior to late 2002. Before troops deployed to Afghanistan on OP APOLLO, the CF received approval from Health Canada for the use of the "permethrin pouch system" on uniforms in areas where there is significant disease risk, such as Afghanistan. Permethrin for clothing application is available to civilians in several Western countries including the US, UK and Australia.

Why was permethrin applied to clothing in Afghanistan?

There is a host of diseases in Afghanistan that are transmitted by biting insects including malaria, sandfly fever and cutaneous leishmaniasis. The use of insect repellents by CF members is important in preventing diseases transmitted by biting insects. Testing has found that permethrin, when applied to clothing, is highly effective in preventing insects from landing on the treated uniform and biting the wearer. Indeed, permethrin applied to clothing has been reported to reduce the number of cases of some diseases caused by biting insects by up to 75 percent. Permethrin treatment of uniforms is used by several of Canada's allies including the US, the UK and Australia and was used by their forces in Afghanistan.

Is permethrin safe when applied to clothing?

It is not possible to say that any chemical is "absolutely completely safe". However, the general safety of permethrin as a clothing application has been reviewed and its use has been approved by regulatory agencies such as the US Environmental Protection Agency. It is recommended as a suitable method to reduce the chance of acquiring insect-transmitted diseases by some of the world’s most credible health authorities, including the World Health Organization, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and Health Canada's Committee to Advise on Tropical Medicine and Travel.

If permethrin when applied to clothing is safe, why did I have to turn in my treated uniform when I got back to Canada?

When DND asked Health Canada to consider approving the use of permethrin, Health Canada only assessed the safety and effectiveness of permethrin treatment of uniforms for deployments outside of Canada - this is why uniforms treated with the pouch system had to be turned in within 30 days of returning home. The manufacturer of the pouch treatment for clothing (with the support of DND) has applied for a broader approval of permethrin treatment of clothing. This application, when approved, would eliminate the need to turn in treated uniforms.
 

LTfit

Veteran Member
Thanks Falcon for the extensive info but both Permethrin and DEET sound extreme...

Hi Hazenklager, I will surf the net for more information but how did YOU use it - did you spray the AUTAN on your belongings (pack, sleeping bag/liner), the bed or yourself at night :?:
Thanks, will check Beversport when I go shopping for pack !
Cheers,
LT fit
 

lynnejohn

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances(2005), VDLP(2007), Madrid(2009), Ingles(2009), Sur (2011), VDLP(2011)-partial, VDLP(2014)
Oh I swore I would not post on this again, but like you, I was intrigued by the Autan. Although there are some positive anecdotal reports on its efficiency, there are many more who say they still got bitten with it. It's a gentle, natural product, and I sincerely wish it worked, but it doesn't seem to.

One paper describes the effectiveness of these gentler brands:

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1603/0 ... lCode=ment

And here is another intriguing product that claims to be a non-toxic competitor to permethrin.

http://www.bed-bug.net

lynne
 

Hazenklager

New Member
My own personal experience with AUTAN is very convincing.
I am the oldfashioned type of country gentleman and fly fishing and shooting are among my hobbies.
Surely I am out and about much more than any other person.
In fly fishing the evening rise is famous. It is because all kinds of insects become active.
I do not use the autan spray, but the stick.It is small thing and you can carry it in your pocket.
My arms and neck are the main target, so I put a bit on it. Insects are deterred by the smell.
In Europe Lyme desease transmitted by ticks has become quite a hazard.
Probably because of the climate change, many more ticks appear with all kinds of tropical deseases, formerly unknown in Northern Europe.
In all my years I have never been bitten. Once or twice I had myself tested for Lyme by the GP, just as a precaution.
Siting on a high seat in the forest is also a place where you might get infected because of insects.
Also in the tropics I have never had any problems with bugs or insects.
Just walk the glenns of Scotland on a sunny day and you wil be attacked by myriads of midges.
Tiny insects with a very irritating sting.
When I walked the Camino, I brought the stick along and used it in hot weather.
But I must add that walking along I have never got the impression that there are many irritating insects about.
For some reason other persons are constantly attacked by insects. It also seems to have something to do with pheromones.
My only explanation is the fact that I wisely use the material.
I sleep in a silk kind of sleeping bag. This also helps of course. Insects will only attack your exposed skin
 

Hazenklager

New Member
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that many products sold in our shops are "made in China". They arrive in containers in the harbours.
These containers have been filled with all kinds of poisonous gasses in the hope of killing all insects from those regions and so keeping the merchandise in perfect condition.
There are many reports of workers opening these containers and inhaling the poison or getting in touch with it in any other way. In leads to attacks on the nervous system and disability.
So stay away from permethrin and the likes and certainly do not spray your belongings with it.
It might also do harm to others.
As to soldiers having to wear "treated uniforms" we can read many stories of soldiers returning with health damage. Remember VietNam and the orange agent they sprayed over forests and only after decades fighting in courts soldiers who had been in contact with it got damage repair.
It dazzles the mind to think that every year over 4000 new chemical substances are created in laboratories to be applied in all kinds of ways.
Please read the book "Silent Spring".
 

lynnejohn

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances(2005), VDLP(2007), Madrid(2009), Ingles(2009), Sur (2011), VDLP(2011)-partial, VDLP(2014)
Silent Spring. Chilling indeed.

Your experiences are certainly convincing for flying and biting insects. For those critters I usually carry Deep Woods OFF towelettes, and they work quite well. What I'm more interested in is a deterrent to bed bugs getting into my sleeping bags, biting me, and then hitching a ride in my gear to the next albergue. This is the area that I've been researching for the most part, and I haven't found any claims for this application from the natural products. My preference is non-toxic products, and that's all I use in my home, but I'm feeling pretty phobic about these bloodsuckers.

I really appreciate you sharing your experiences and observations with these products - for one I may switch to Autan instead of Deep Woods OFF.

Oh, and I live in Northern Ontario, Canada, where the blackflies are so thick that if you go into the bush you can't see your hand in front of your face some days! Mosquitoes as well, but they're not as voracious. At the height of the season, deer and moose are crazed by them and run out of the bush onto the road to kill themselves (and sometimes us) on our cars. Just a little context :)

Thanks for the information.

PS. Are midges the same as blackflies, do you reckon?

lynne
 

elzi

Active Member
Can I throw a hint of realism here. Is it really necessary to cover all of your stuff in toxic chemicals on the off chance you might meet a bug that doesn't like them? I walked the camino routes plenty and I've only actually been bedbug bitten twice! And that's from a lot of nights in walking accomodation!

I'm no friend to bedbugs, being bitten was excruciating, but seriously i'm more bothered by mosquitoes! Itchy irritating bites and I've met a lot more of them...

Be bedbug aware but unless you have some kind of "super bedbug death-from-one-bite" allergy simply read up on what to do if you meet them and enjoy your camino without worrying overly.

Blisters on your feet on the other hand......
 

elzi

Active Member
Hazenklager said:
I sleep in a silk kind of sleeping bag. This also helps of course. Insects will only attack your exposed skin

this is a good point. make sure you're zipped up tight in your bag. you'll only get bitten on any exposed bits!
 
D

Deleted member 3000

Guest
Autan works because it is DEET:

"Autan Protection Plus (UK Only)
Instant protection for the entire body (suitable for adults and children over 3 years old. Contains 30% DEET)
* Autan Protection Plus Body spray is the ideal product to protect your entire body quickly and easily from insect bites."

The Off! DEET products are generally between 5% and 15%, with the Deep Woods product at 25%.

Here is a site with concise reviews of several products:

http://www.which.co.uk/reviews-ns/insec ... /index.jsp

The products rumored to work, generally DO NOT.
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2006,08,09,11,12(2),13(2),14,16(2),18(2) Aragones 11,12,VDLP 11,13,Lourdes 12,Malaga 16,Port 06
. However, the general safety of permethrin as a clothing application has been reviewed and its use has been approved by regulatory agencies such as the US Environmental Protection Agency.

This doesn't necessarily mean much to me... those in charge of these agencies, including the EPA are ex-Monsanto employees or in their pockets. My government lies to me every day, and I no longer trust it. Case in point... go watch a movie called "Food, Inc."

This is a DANGEROUS chemical and it WILL enter the pores of your skin and get into your bloodstream, bones, and organs if you spray it on your skin.

And... it is NOT true that the bedbugs will only bite exposed skin. They get INTO your bedding, and INTO your clothing, and INTO your backpack and they will bite anyplace they find warm and cozy.I've seen people with lots of bites on places that were covered by underpants or undershirts or even socks... so please don't believe that.

What type of reaction you have to bedbugs depends on your own immune system... some people aren't bothered much. But MOST that I saw had horrible reactions from the anticoagulant that the bug injects into you so your blood will flow. I met about 3 that ended up going to the hospital because the bites were so swollen and hot.... one guy had lumps the size of walnuts on his arms and legs.... others had welts the size of a red hot peanut... others had mosquito-bite looking spots. Everyone's different.

To say not to worry about it, to me, is irresponsible simply because those people who "don't worry about" are the ones who are spreading it all along the Camino for the rest of us to enjoy!!! :!:
 

LTfit

Veteran Member
This has become quite a passionate thread :!:

I'm with Lynne...would prefer to go with something non-toxic but aparently AUTAN does not fit the bill. I too, am not so worried about mosquitoes (at least haven't had problems with them in the past) but Annie's bed beg recount sounds nasty!

But am I any wiser now :? :?:

As far as I am concerned Permethrin is out.

I'll have some anti-bug spray on hand in case of need but do not plan on spraying myself on a preventative basis. But the bed bug issue has yet to be solved.

What about spraying the bed as AnnieSantiago does :?:

Is there a consensus here :?: (Sorry, live in Holland :wink: )

Cheers,
LTfit
 

elzi

Active Member
Anniesantiago said:
.

To say not to worry about it, to me, is irresponsible simply because those people who "don't worry about" are the ones who are spreading it all along the Camino for the rest of us to enjoy!!! :!:


Hi Annie, I actually pointed out that people should read up in advance what to do if they met them and be bedbug aware!

I have been very conscientious the twice I've met bedbugs not to spread them any further along the camino. However I don't want to spray everything I own with chemicals just in case.
 

Tia Valeria

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Pt Norte/Pmtvo 2010
C. Inglés 2011
C. Primitivo '12
Norte-C. de la Reina '13
C. do Mar-C. Inglés '15
LTfit said:
This has become quite a passionate thread :!:
..............
What about spraying the bed as AnnieSantiago does :?:

Is there a consensus here :?: (Sorry, live in Holland :wink: )

Cheers,
LTfit
It has been said before,but I will add it again here:
If you spray yourself or your kit outside of the albergue that is fine, it is your choice. Spraying the bed with any chemical may affect someone else in the room, or coming after, badly. They may be asthmatic or allergic to your chosen spray. Water would make the bed damp.
Give the bed a good check for blood specks and if there are any move on if needed, but let the hospitalero know so that the problem can be dealt with!!
Buen 'bug free' Camino
Tia Valeria
 
D

Deleted member 3000

Guest
Spraying your skin with permethrin is against the instructions, which categorically state that you should avoid contact with the solution. Once the permethrin has dried, it is safe. If you apply it to the outside of your sleeping bag and pack, you will never contact even the dried permethrin.

LL Bean, and several clothing manufacturers, offer permethrin treated clothing lines:

http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/stores ... qs=3006377

Click on the "How Does Insect Shield Work?" square.

Panic will not do anyone any good, and neither will over-blown rhetoric. The choice is between being bitten by bedbugs and not. To not be bitten, you will either trust to luck that there will not be bedbugs, or you will use a repellent. If you have a strong reaction to bug bites, getting bitten is not a pleasant prospect. You have to choose the risk you will take. If you spray anything near me in an albergue, I will ask you to stop, or get the hospitalero as necessary. You do not have the right to expose fellow pilgrims to your choice of poison under any circumstances, and you do not have the right to treat an albergue without the permission of the owner.

This may be a thread that is getting heated, but if we stick to the facts, then it is a valuable one.
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2006,08,09,11,12(2),13(2),14,16(2),18(2) Aragones 11,12,VDLP 11,13,Lourdes 12,Malaga 16,Port 06
Re: First Camino - The facts

Elzi, I see what you're saying.

Tia, I understand your point of view also, but I don't see how it makes a difference whether the pilgrim before you had a sleeping bag permeated with poison, or the bed was lightly misted. If you tell the hospitalera. what do you think they do? They grab that can of RAID and spray the heck out of the mattresses, the floors, the walls... and THAT scent lingers for hours! To me my way is better. The bed does NOT get wet at all. The droplets are a MIST and they dry and dissipate within 5 minutes.

Thanks, Falcon, for mentioning THE FACTS. You are so good at this!

Here are the facts as I see them:

Insect repellant is toxic to humans, animals, and other living things.

It gets into the food, water, and your bloodstream, brain, and organs when you use it.

It is measurable in the human system with the correct testing.

Bedbugs are nasty little critters that suck your blood while you sleep.

They, more often than not, leave you with painful, itchy, large red welts that put some people in emergency care.

They are said not to carry disease. The FACT is that they INJECT an anti-coagulant into your body. Common sense makes me wonder who they bit before they bit me? Did that person have a communicable disease? How many studies have REALLY been done on bedbugs passing disease?

Some people have little or no reaction to the bites.

There are several ways to deal with bedbugs, but the best way seems to be with poisonous toxins.

Although it would be nice not to use poisons, it IS possible to use the toxins more responsibly than not.

The mosquito spray I bought in the farmacia in Spain was unscented.

I bought it because I have multiple chemical sensitivities and am extremely sensitive to scents and chemicals.

Misting the bed with 2 or 3 sprays from a pump spray, 6 inches above your mattress does not permeate the room with any scent. If you do this in the afternoon when you arrive, the alburgue is often empty or the pilgrims are still spaced widely.

It is polite to ASK people in the room if they mind before spraying.

When you mist your bed LIGHTLY with this neuro-toxin, the bedbugs come to the surface within 5 minutes, giving you the choice of finding different lodging or a different bed.

If there is a bedbug in one bed, there may not be bugs in other beds, but I wouldn't place money on it.

Bedbugs, although small, travel quite rapidly...from one bed to another, from one backpack to another, from one pilgrim to another, from one alburgue to another.

I hate using chemicals, but in this case, I see no alternative except becoming infested, which I'm not willing to do.

You can also look for signs of bugs and almost always see them.
Look on the wall near the bed for black peck-peck-pecks like someone took a black inkpen and dotted the wall. This is their feces.
Look all along the seam running around the mattress. They like to hide in there.
Lift the mattress and look in the holes that hold the hardware for the wooden bedframe. This is a favorite hiding place.

If you find bedbugs, and ask for a refund, I never had it refused.

I always found other clean lodging close by.

Unfortunately, there really is no perfect answer. You are either willing or unwilling to be bitten.

I'm unwilling.


Here are a few more FACTS:

There is at least one person on Obama's cabinet who came to him from Monsanto, and he is Michael Taylor, appointed to the Food and Drug Administration, the same FDA that is supposed to be protecting me from dangerous substances in my foods. That does not do much to give me confidence in my government. :roll: Here is more if you're interested in reading the facts:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/article ... _18866.cfm
http://www.takepart.com/news/2009/03/09 ... or-change/

And the EPA? Here's some interesting reading about them:

http://www.verdant.net/monsanto.htm
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-131639591.html

You'll notice Monsanto received the go-ahead from the EPA... for SYSTEMIC poisons in our food and fabric supply. SYSTEMIC means the poison actually travels into the body of the plant, and is now being thought to be related to colony collapse of honeybees, and now to the death of hundreds of thousands of bats. The poisons are time released, contained in polymers, and you may want to think about how they could affect YOU if you are eating them?

This is an interesting article with many links for the few who may be interested in becoming more informed:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Raids- ... 15-45.html

You are right, I'm passionate about my fight against Monsanto and I wish the world would wake up. But to call it rhetoric is simply not true. You can poke fun all you want.. it does not change the FACTS. You just can't wish facts away...

And the last FACT is, I walked for 90 days, misted each and every bed, not one pilgrim complained about the scent/mist, and I did not get bitten once. :D :::doing a happy Camino dance!:::::

:::edited:: The last last fact is this problem is probably not going away. I stayed at one alburgue where the week before, the owner had actually taken all the mattresses outside and sprayed them, and had taken a BLOWTORCH to the metal bedframes.... and one week later, he was again infested. ::shrug:: It's just a fact of life on the Camino so each person has to choose what works best for them.
 

Tia Valeria

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Pt Norte/Pmtvo 2010
C. Inglés 2011
C. Primitivo '12
Norte-C. de la Reina '13
C. do Mar-C. Inglés '15
Thanks Annie.
If I can smell RAID I'll be off elswhere. :)
What is in your unscented mosquito spray and what do they call it please?
Tia Valeria
 

LTfit

Veteran Member
Haven't used my Spanish in ages so correct me if I am wrong. If you want to let the hospitalera know that there are bedbugs in your bed you could say:

'Hay chinches en mi cama'

Just thought that I would end the thread on that note.

Thanks for all those who participated.

Cheers,
LTfit
 
D

Deleted member 3000

Guest
Bedbug control is an on-going activity by the albergues on the Camino, so expect a high level of toxins in general. It is a good reason, besides those of personal hygeine, for sleeping inside a sleeping bag or sack, and keeping your head off of the pillows supplied. If the hospitalero is doing his job, the place may even have been fumigated during the off-season, leaving insecticide residue on virtually everything.

An illustrative anecdote I can share is the Red Cross building across the street from where I work. After an employee complaint and decades of pest control (bugs and rodents), they tested the basement, and found it to be so toxic that it was sealed off until it could be decontaminated.

The bedbugs and the toxins are there, so each pilgrim just has to decide how to deal with it. You may have to glean the facts from among the opinions to find your favorite solution. Good luck!
 

sulu

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
a few since 2010
This year Albergues are now being supplied with disposable mattress covers and pillow cases and each pilgrim should be issued with one at each albergue. This appears to have started this week.
Sue
 

andy.d

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino de Levante 2009
Camino Ingles (Coruna) 2011
Camino Ingles (Coruna) 2014
Pilgrims Way Winchester - Canterbury
Camino Ingles (Ferrol) 2015
Cistercian Way (Wales) 2016
Last autumn the Xunta albergues in Galicia on the VDLP were supplying them. They certainly make things more hygenic. Are they bb proof?

Andy
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2006,08,09,11,12(2),13(2),14,16(2),18(2) Aragones 11,12,VDLP 11,13,Lourdes 12,Malaga 16,Port 06
sulu said:
This year Albergues are now being supplied with disposable mattress covers and pillow cases and each pilgrim should be issued with one at each albergue. This appears to have started this week.
Sue

Last year these were being supplied in many albergues.

No, I do not think they are bb proof, but they're sure nice. It's nice to sleep on a clean mattress, and they may help keep the bb population down, since they are discarded each morning!
 

lynnejohn

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances(2005), VDLP(2007), Madrid(2009), Ingles(2009), Sur (2011), VDLP(2011)-partial, VDLP(2014)
As long as you don't collect your used mattress cover and take it with you! (have seen some folks do that in case the next albergue doesn't have covers). You may be taking along more than your mattress cover :shock:

lynne
 

pat.holland

Member
Camino(s) past & future
C F 2007-10, Le Puy St. Jean 2011-13, C P 2015 Via F 2016-7
Just to say that we arrived in Santiago a few days ago having walked from Ponferrada and did not see/feel any sign of bed bugs along the way. I did see in two places some certs in the reception areas of albergues which seem to show that they had been fumigated so an effort is being made to prevent the problem.
 

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