First step ..... Improvement?

[Icacos]

Recently, there have been numerous threads on this forum deploring the condition of the Camino (I take it that this is mainly the more heavily used Camino Francés) regarding the garbage that pilgrims leave in their wake. I think it is generally accepted that the transgressors are persons other than the members of this forum. Recently I posted on another thread a comment / suggestion as to an approach that might be taken to deal with this issue. For those of you who may not have seen it, and/or who may be interested now, here is what I posted:

Since it is the pilgrims who create the garbage, and these very same pilgrims stay in the albergues, hostels, casas rurales, monasteries - what have you - and eat in the bars and restaurants along the way, it is beyond my comprehension that discrete signs (or maybe not so discrete) are not put up in these establishments drawing to pilgrims' minds the problem of garbage on the Camino, and gently suggesting to one and all that everyone would benefit if each of us were to look after his own garbage. In other words, "Pack out what you pack in .... Leave only footprints." That way, the concept just may register and pilgrims will, hopefully, begin to be aware of the issue. To continue to lament the problem after the fact is - pardon me - ridiculous. Treat the problem at its source .... IMHO.

(Edit to above quote: I no longer suggest that signs, discrete or otherwise, should be posted in bars or eating establishments along the Way. I am now leaning towards a gentle anti-littering message included with the issuance of the credential.)

Aside from two 'likes' - duly noted and much appreciated - not one person has commented on my suggestion. I find this quite strange - after all, it has been my experience that this forum's members are most often happy to offer up their opinions. So why the reticence here? Rather than continue to decry the current situation, I have put forward a suggestion which, I think, is worth pursuing or, at the very least, is worth further discussion. Yet there's been no response.

I gather from other posts that there is no specific organization that oversees the Camino, and that the Camino basically runs itself. To me, that means that a pilgrim such as I can put forward an idea, and a pilgrim such as I - and I realize I may be going out on a limb here - can make a move to implement change. I don't know anything about Camino protocol, or Spanish culture for that matter, but I'm very curious about the lack of response here. Am I treading where I should not be treading? Is what I'm suggesting just not cricket? I'd really like to know.

Please respond when you get a chance. This issue won't be going away anytime soon.

And a very Happy Christmas to all.

 

[Mark Lee]

Honestly, I can't say I saw that much trash left on the Camino (Frances). Sure, there were a few spots where it seemed to be concentrated, but overall not much at all, especially considering around what, 200,000 people walked it this year? That many people there's bound to be some residue of their presence. People will be people.

 

[C clearly]

Your suggestion was certainly worth considering. However, my own reaction was lukewarm because I suspect that that the culprits are not going to pay much attention to a sign or two and I wouldn't want to see a proliferation of notices stating the obvious. Given the amount of traffic, some garbage is inevitable, and all of us can help by picking up a few things from time to time. That also sets a good example that others may see.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Maybe, together with having to show your credential to be given access to the albergues, one could be asked to present a smallish bag of trash they picked up along the way ;0)

 

[nidarosa]

I also find that talking about littering in this forum is preaching to the choir - all of us agree it's not cricket and we wouldn't dream of doing it ourselves. The most rubbish I saw along the Astorga-Santiago walk in September was in public recreational areas where bins were overflowing; people had tried to dispose of their rubbish but no one emptied the bins. I am all for the pick-a-bag-full-of-rubbish-along-the-way idea but signs, no matter how discrete, I don't know - will it work? More bins and more binmen! (TP is a different story.)

One thing I have started doing now that I am old and cranky enough, finally, is that whenever I see someone dropping litter, I approach them or turn to them and say, firmly, loudly and with a smile: "Excuse me, you dropped something." Even the worst offenders seem to get the gist and in 99% of cases will pick it up - cigarette packet plastic, chocolate bar wrapper, empty bottle - and either stick it quickly in their pocket or go over to the bin. Of course that's just when you see them though. Keep the suggestions coming!

 

[cher99840]

I honestly didn't see that much either except in spots obviously used for potty breaks. Those were a mess. Then there was the occasional picnic spot that defeated the purpose as they were pretty trashed. Odd I thought, that if someone stops for lunch along side the road, they take their trash with them, but in a place where someone has made the effort to provide pilgrims with a bit more comfort by providing a table and bench, the spot is descecrated with trash left behind. I don't think I'll figure that one out. Then there is the difference of opinion regarding "trash". TP, nasty, and I can honestly say I never left a square behind. But orange peels? Heck yes!, to me that is compost. Not everyone agrees with that however, and I've been chastised for leaving bits of orange peel in my wake.

 

[amorfati1]

Recently, there have been numerous threads on this forum deploring the condition of the Camino (I take it that this is mainly the more heavily used Camino Francés) regarding the garbage that pilgrims leave in their wake. I think it is generally accepted that the transgressors are persons other than the members of this forum. Recently I posted on another thread a comment / suggestion as to an approach that might be taken to deal with this issue. For those of you who may not have seen it, and/or who may be interested now, here is what I posted:



Aside from two 'likes' - duly noted and much appreciated - not one person has commented on my suggestion. I find this quite strange - after all, it has been my experience that this forum's members are most often happy to offer up their opinions. So why the reticence here? Rather than continue to decry the current situation, I have put forward a suggestion which, I think, is worth pursuing or, at the very least, is worth further discussion. Yet there's been no response.

I gather from other posts that there is no specific organization that oversees the Camino, and that the Camino basically runs itself. To me, that means that a pilgrim such as I can put forward an idea, and a pilgrim such as I - and I realize I may be going out on a limb here - can make a move to implement change. I don't know anything about Camino protocol, or Spanish culture for that matter, but I'm very curious about the lack of response here. Am I treading where I should not be treading? Is what I'm suggesting just not cricket? I'd really like to know.

Please respond when you get a chance. This issue won't be going away anytime soon.

And a very Happy Christmas to all.

Don't recall if I have read the initial posting - but here are my two pennies on this topic - based on experience on one caminho only (4 wks):
most of the rubbish i've seen along the path was from households (tyres, entire black rubbish bags, old laundry detergent containers and other such charmers) - i had posted twice signs in albergues on a related matter - which was promptly removed by other pilgrims each time (not the staff, as no one was present after 19:00hr) - so, it's apparently not popular to be reminded of common courtesy?!
For the most part - I found little trace of pilgrim-induced-rubbish on the camino. I have witnessed though twice the same female pilgrim leaving her empty beer can and other traces underneath her unmade (read: removed disposable sheets) albergue bed. Was it exasperating to see this? Yes! was I annoyed? Yes. Was i trappsing after her to remind her of her mess and 'risk' a bad-breath assault or another funk-response? No, not at 6am before having me caffe'.
What i am left with is living with example - (that includes not returning roaring drunk to an albergue at night when most sleep already, or using up mucho hot shower-water.) So I am aiming to tread lightly on this planet, leaving as little traces as possible, with the least noise as possible, but move about with the most respect and kindness I can muster in any given situation.
The garbage question is perhaps only on the surface about rubbish - underneath it's an appeal to raise awareness, to become more self-aware of ones habits or lack of. - And usually - I see that sort of evolution move at glacial pace.
so while i might have a decent 'be clean and neat' habit or value system, i certainly don't have a proper 'get exercise' habit for e.g. - and i can confirm that it is a very elusive habit/value for me to acquire.
Well, who knows, maybe those who exasperate in the leaving-rubbish-behind department are just on their training-wheels learning that particular awareness? (i surely must have tested others patience in my teenage-funk days)
Might not have answered your question - but there you have it and i'd say that forum members are probably on the up-scale in awareness about this?! Preaching to choir comes to mind ... - Buon Natale to you too! saluti!

 

[cher99840]

Good heavens Amorfati1, you said a lot and said it well!!

 

[Icacos]

Thank you, forum members, for your responses thus far. I am pondering all.

But orange peels? ...... to me that is compost. Not everyone agrees with that however, and I've been chastised for leaving bits of orange peel in my wake.

Ooops, you might be in trouble here . If orange peels are 'compost', they should be put in the compost bin, not left in your wake. Mind you, if you stashed them in a hedge ...........

 

[wayfarer]

In 2012 and 2013 I did not see that much rubbish except a few spots with loads of toilet paper. I always take my own rubbish with me to the next bin as I saw most people do so I suspect a lot of the rubbish is toilet break tissues.
Strangely enough the oil in orange peel contains a natural antibacterial and will not break down for a long time unlike banana, apple and other fruit. It is the one peel I always bin. On an off topic note orange oil makes a great deoderant if you want to save weight.

 

[lettinggo]

Hola

It is a difficult matter to find a solution to as I believe there are many personal, national and cultural issues involved here.
What is crystal clear for one person is something unimportant for others.
On my Caminos I have seen persons, whom I had met and found wonderful, leave trash after lunch in the middle of a town plaza, despite there were a trash bin a few feet away, or throw an emptied soda can to the side of the road.
In some cases I have waited until we were ready to continue and then removed the trash myself, resulting in some curious questions from the persons why I did this. Often I have just send them a small smile, remembering myself that I am not walking the Camino to impose my own standards on others.
Walking the trails I sometime collect bits and pieces while other times I have other things on my mind.

In relation to this subject I remember visiting a high developed country some years ago and as I had to throw some batteries away I asked some people where I could do this. They looked at me curiously and said 'along with the other trash'.
As I come from a country where we separate these kinds of thrash it made me uncomfortable and I still think of this indifference on a national level as a reason to the current situation of our planet.
Then again, different countries has different laws and ethics regarding different situations.

About the camino I cannot see that signs would do harm so I am for that.
Other possibilities to be tried could be to add a 0.5 to 1 € charge to albergues to generate revenue and use this on systematical cleanups.
Another thing could be to have a trash bin at every 3 or 4 way marker along the road.
This would mean that everyone would know the distance to the next possible drop of which I believe is one issue regarding carrying trash.
How long will I have to carry it.

But I think one has to be a bit careful about making systems and plans.
It will change the Camino as we know it and could in time result in many 'facilities' which is commonplace in amusement sparks, national parks, etc.
If this may/would/will come, the experience of walking with uncertainty would be replaced (and reduced) to be only about walking.
And this we can do in circles right at our home.

Lettinggo

 

[marbuck]

I would like to see a charge of maybe 5 to 10 euro's placed on everybody who obtains a pilgrims passport, this money to go into erecting some form of toilets along the Camino. Not only would it help to stop the piles of toilet paper behind every bush and building but it would also provide employment to people in the many small villagers who could be employed to clean and maintain these toilet facilities. 2000,000 pilgrims a year at 5 to 10 euros each would build a lot of toilets.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

But orange peels? Heck yes!, to me that is compost.

Actually, orange peels and cotton t-shirts biodegrade in about the same amount of time - six months. Paper is 2 to 5 months. Orange peels and banana peels are best put into one of Spain's many trash bins.

 

[DurhamParish]

Hola

On my Caminos I have seen persons, whom I had met and found wonderful, leave trash after lunch in the middle of a town plaza, despite there were a trash bin a few feet away, or throw an emptied soda can to the side of the road.
In some cases I have waited until we were ready to continue and then removed the trash myself, resulting in some curious questions from the persons why I did this. Often I have just send them a small smile, remembering myself that I am not walking the Camino to impose my own standards on others.

That's beautiful. I love it. For many, I'll bet it's odd for them and they wonder just what that strange person is doing. But I'd wager that for many others, it changed their habits for the better.

But back to the maid subject. I found that there were ample trash bins in the towns and villages. Those odd bins painted the bright colors. I think (I could be wrong) that he different colors of these bins were for different kids of trash disposal and recycling. The "Camino Authorities" (whomever they may be) should publish what these different colored bins are for (plastic recycle, paper recycle, trash, etc). I know I always worried that I was putting the wrong thing in the wrong bin.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Grey dumpsters= normal garbage (for people who do not recycle)
brown dumpster= organic material
Blue= paper,
green= glass
yellow= aluminum

 

[peregrina2000]

Last summer I bought a pint of blackberries in a small plastic container on the Camino coming into Triacastela, and was surprised to see some of the people I had met and walked with just tossing the container on the ground. And for the next few kms, the camino was littered with a lot of these things, even though we were no more than a few kms outside Triacastela and the next garbage bin. Should I have made a point with those people? I did pick up a few containers, but didn't do it conspicuously or with any sort of disapproving glance. There's something about being a guest in someone's country and not wanting to pontificate to them (yes, the offenders I saw were all Spaniards) about how to be better citizens.

I remember reading a sociological profile of some mediterranean country, maybe Italy, and the author opined that the reason there is so much trash just thrown on the ground is because the odds of it hitting a family member are very low -- the point being, I think, that private spaces were lovingly cared for, but public spaces, well, it's up to the authorities and it's not an individual responsibility outside the home.

I am frequently astonished at how every city in Spain has an army of street cleaners that are out when I leave to walk -- public employees washing/vaccuuming the streets and carting away garbage, and every portero in town sweeping in front of his/her building, washing the windows of the doors, etc. Maybe if you grow up used to having others do the work, it just doesn't seem like it's your responsibility.

Buen camino, Laurie

 

[s. brown]

Last summer I bought a pint of blackberries in a small plastic container on the Camino coming into Triacastela, and was surprised to see some of the people I had met and walked with just tossing the container on the ground. And for the next few kms, the camino was littered with a lot of these things, even though we were no more than a few kms outside Triacastela and the next garbage bin. Should I have made a point with those people? I did pick up a few containers, but didn't do it conspicuously or with any sort of disapproving glance. There's something about being a guest in someone's country and not wanting to pontificate to them (yes, the offenders I saw were all Spaniards) about how to be better citizens.

I remember reading a sociological profile of some mediterranean country, maybe Italy, and the author opined that the reason there is so much trash just thrown on the ground is because the odds of it hitting a family member are very low -- the point being, I think, that private spaces were lovingly cared for, but public spaces, well, it's up to the authorities and it's not an individual responsibility outside the home.

I am frequently astonished at how every city in Spain has an army of street cleaners that are out when I leave to walk -- public employees washing/vaccuuming the streets and carting away garbage, and every portero in town sweeping in front of his/her building, washing the windows of the doors, etc. Maybe if you grow up used to having others do the work, it just doesn't seem like it's your responsibility.

Buen camino, Laurie

Wow, this brought up an old memory, but one that is firmly etched on my brain pan. When I was 22 and on a train in Spain I sat in a full compartment with a Spanish man and his children. He had a bag of cherries. He would eat one and then let the pit roll out of his mouth and down his chin and onto the floor. I was astonished--remember I was 22-- and I've never forgotten it. He didn't projectile spit the pits out, he just lazily -- or so it seemed to me -- let them fall out of his mouth. I guess you could say at least say he didn't hit a family member!

 

[Icacos]

So many angles to consider .... and, again, thank you for all your comments. I agree that a proliferation of signs would not be a good idea; at best it would be an irritant. Still, some indication maybe - either spoken or written - wherever credentials are handed out ...... just to put the idea of litter management into pilgrims' minds? As others have pointed out, changing people's value systems is a glacially slow process, and this would be a first step.

Adding more garbage bins will only work if a system is in place to have them emptied regularly - even in the "world class city" where I live, this is often a problem - and wonderful though Spain is, when I was there I could see that it was a struggle for the authorities to keep apace with the production of garbage. My guess is that it's the same worldwide. And what's wrong with people that they can't cart their garbage with them until they get to the next town, mere kilometres down the road? How much does an empty water bottle weigh anyway, or a wrapper from a granola bar? (When I was preparing for my Camino I was surprised to learn that in some remote ecologically sensitive areas, sojourners are required to pack out their waste, and I mean all their waste, even if it's a week's worth.) But I understand that looking after one's own garbage - or not looking after it - is a cultural matter. I've encountered this myself, having moved from one country to another, albeit many moons ago.

The toilet issue is big, but I'm not sure building more toilets would solve the problem in the long run. I don't think our current flush toilets are inexpensive to operate and maintain, and charging pilgrims to cover the cost would create a host of other issues regarding implementation and ongoing maintenance .... and isn't the Camino supposed to run itself? What's happening with Bill Gates's new toilet? That might solve some problems!

Oh dear, the more I think of this problem, and compare it with other problems facing humanity, it doesn't really seem that big after all. Perhaps encountering these problems, and dealing with them as best we can, is a small price to pay for the privilege of walking in this beautiful country, and it certainly builds tolerance.

However ..... I still think the places that provide the credentials could begin the process of building awareness with respect to litter management. The lovely volunteers in the Pilgrim Office do a first-class job of welcoming pilgrims; could we not ask them, and other credential providers, if they would mention the litter problem - without being preachy (not my strong point) - or, at least, post a sign to this effect in their office? (Specifics of sign to be worked out, but one with a bit of humour, hopefully.) Some posters here have indicated that they pick up garbage in the hope of shaming others to do the same, or to not litter in the first place. Do you think the would-be-litterers might sooner not litter if they knew that everyone else read the same anti-litter notice that very morning?

Just trying to make that first step ...... in this very, very long journey

 

[Mark Lee]

I would like to see a charge of maybe 5 to 10 euro's placed on everybody who obtains a pilgrims passport, this money to go into erecting some form of toilets along the Camino. Not only would it help to stop the piles of toilet paper behind every bush and building but it would also provide employment to people in the many small villagers who could be employed to clean and maintain these toilet facilities. 2000,000 pilgrims a year at 5 to 10 euros each would build a lot of toilets.

Unfortunately public toilets, maintained or not, become unsanitary, smelly and disgusting, and I would not care to fork out money to go towards a facility I would not use. I never had the need to pee bad enough on either Camino to want to use one. Good old tree, bush or private spot off the Way worked just fine, though it always seemed that there would be nobody on the route and just as I would be about to do my business, suddenly a group of peregrinos would appear, ha ha.

 

[fortview]

What about composting toilets? It would be great to see these, but I'm sure there's a reason why there aren't any, that's been mentioned on here before.

 

[cher99840]

What about composting toilets? It would be great to see these, but I'm sure there's a reason why there aren't any, that's been mentioned on here before.

Composting toilets aren't maintenance free either. I had my first experience with them on the Chilkoot Trail last summer. The first camp had a sign that said to toss a handful of chips in before leaving and I looked at that bucket of chips thinking "do I want to put my hand in there?" (I did it, but can't say I was comfortable with the experience.). The next camp had an old tin Cup in the bucket of chips, and the sign said to toss in a cupful of chips. Liked that a lot better, but someone had to keep that bucket full of chips. Then people have to actually use it properly....not dump their trash in, etc. it works on a trail limited to 50 people per day and monitored by park rangers, but suspect it wouldn't work so well on the Camino.

 

[Camembert]

I also find that talking about littering in this forum is preaching to the choir - all of us agree it's not cricket and we wouldn't dream of doing it ourselves. The most rubbish I saw along the Astorga-Santiago walk in September was in public recreational areas where bins were overflowing; people had tried to dispose of their rubbish but no one emptied the bins. I am all for the pick-a-bag-full-of-rubbish-along-the-way idea but signs, no matter how discrete, I don't know - will it work? More bins and more binmen! (TP is a different story.)

One thing I have started doing now that I am old and cranky enough, finally, is that whenever I see someone dropping litter, I approach them or turn to them and say, firmly, loudly and with a smile: "Excuse me, you dropped something." Even the worst offenders seem to get the gist and in 99% of cases will pick it up - cigarette packet plastic, chocolate bar wrapper, empty bottle - and either stick it quickly in their pocket or go over to the bin. Of course that's just when you see them though. Keep the suggestions coming!

Don't do this here in Holland to talk to somebody who dropped something.
At least they swear to you but it is possible they hit you. Very rude and unpolite nowadays so I refrain from doing that.

 

[nidarosa]

To be honest telling adults off in public can be a bit dangerous anywhere, so the trick is to keep the smile on and pretend you are only trying to be helpful in pointing out that they have lost something - it could be a £20 note, it could be a train ticket or important receipt for all you know ... only we both know it isn't.

 

[Camembert]

I would like to see a charge of maybe 5 to 10 euro's placed on everybody who obtains a pilgrims passport, this money to go into erecting some form of toilets along the Camino. Not only would it help to stop the piles of toilet paper behind every bush and building but it would also provide employment to people in the many small villagers who could be employed to clean and maintain these toilet facilities. 2000,000 pilgrims a year at 5 to 10 euros each would build a lot of toilets.

Reminds me a demonstration of unemployed people asking for work ,whatever it would be. We want work..we want work...
I pointed to one of them and said "I have a job for you, cleaning the streets!
He answered "why me ?"

 

[Robo]

I would like to see a charge of maybe 5 to 10 euro's placed on everybody who obtains a pilgrims passport, this money to go into erecting some form of toilets along the Camino. Not only would it help to stop the piles of toilet paper behind every bush and building but it would also provide employment to people in the many small villagers who could be employed to clean and maintain these toilet facilities. 2000,000 pilgrims a year at 5 to 10 euros each would build a lot of toilets.

What a great idea... And also to pay for regular clean ups.

 

[Icacos]

I don't think imposing a clean up fee on pilgrims will work in the long run. Firstly, it will rile those who don't litter and, secondly, I think those who do litter may well take it as carte blanche that they can continue to do so - with impunity - since they would have already paid to have someone clean up their mess. In other words, it will absolve them of any responsibility, quite the opposite of what I am trying to achieve.

What I am trying to do here is to plant the seed of awareness, to introduce the concept on the Camino of each pilgrim taking responsibility for his/her own garbage, to move us all towards trying to walk a little more gently on our earth, and to foster general consideration for our fellow peregrinos and the communities through which we walk - some Camino Etiquette, if you will. When authorities want to get messages out / ideas across, they often start in the schools, the idea being that kids would go home and spread the messages to their families, and thereby to the larger community. In lieu of schools, I thought we could try to introduce this concept via the offices that issue the credentials - after all, each and every pilgrim needs a credential - and if the idea is introduced at that point, over time the idea may just take root. That, combined with the example that some pilgrims have already indicated they try to set by picking up litter along the way, things may slowly start to change. It will take time, there's no doubt about it but, as we so like to say on the Forum, the longest journey starts with a single step.

By the way, I can't help but notice that no one has indicated one way or the other whether initiating this anti-littering concept via the credential issuing offices might or might not work, or if it is something just not to be done. Or whether it is a complete pipe dream on my part. I appreciate that no one is compelled to post on the Forum, but I still wonder.

 

[waveprof]

Honestly, I can't say I saw that much trash left on the Camino (Frances). Sure, there were a few spots where it seemed to be concentrated, but overall not much at all, especially considering around what, 200,000 people walked it this year? That many people there's bound to be some residue of their presence. People will be people.

Agreed 100%

And the signs would add their own kind of clutter.

It's like when I see people with immaculate front lawns and big signs reminding people to pick up their dog excrement. I'd have to have a LOT of people leaving dog excrement to want to put up such a sign because the sign is as ugly/disgusting as the excrement.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

a complete pipe dream

I'll go with that one.

 

[Icacos]

No one is talking about 'signs, signs, everywhere are signs.' I'm just suggesting a gentle reminder given, in some manner or other, at the time one collects his credential. I too, did not notice much litter, except for tissues and/or TP. As to the other stuff, I did not look for it, neither did I peek behind any convenient looking walls - perhaps it was the time of year that I walked. But it must be a problem otherwise there wouldn't be so many threads deploring the fact.

Best let this rest for a while. No sense getting exercised about it.

 

[Icacos]

I'll go with that one.

Thank you, falcon. Plain and straightforward. I can handle that.

 

[Thomas1962]

I gather from other posts that there is no specific organization that oversees the Camino, and that the Camino basically runs itself. To me, that means that a pilgrim such as I can put forward an idea, and a pilgrim such as I - and I realize I may be going out on a limb here - can make a move to implement change. I don't know anything about Camino protocol, or Spanish culture for that matter, but I'm very curious about the lack of response here. Am I treading where I should not be treading? Is what I'm suggesting just not cricket? I'd really like to know.
Please respond when you get a chance. This issue won't be going away anytime soon.
And a very Happy Christmas to all.

Reading this thread makes me realize even more how unique the camino is to me by not having a specific organisation that's overseeing it. Although the catholic church has a lot of rules in itselves, the only rule on camino is that you walk 100 km, that's all. For me this is very empowering, it's just me who has the responsability to make it work or not, no organisation or no one else. Having organized signs all the way would feel to me like my responability is partly taken away.
No one has paid or got paid for anything. For anyone and for all of us on this forum it means that no one else is to blaim, claim or praise (exept Ivar and San Tiago/Jacob off course.... )
But any action by individuals of groups is completely fine of course....

 

[shefollowsshells]

Reading this thread makes me realize even more how unique the camino is to me by not having a specific organisation that's overseeing it. Although the catholic church has a lot of rules in itselves, the only rule on camino is that you walk 100 km, that's all. For me this is very empowering, it's just me who has the responsability to make it work or not, no organisation or no one else. Having organized signs all way would feel to me like my responability is partly taken away. No one has paid or did pay for something. For all of us on this forum it means, no one else to blaim, claim or praise (exept Ivar off course.... )
But any action by individuals of groups is completely fine of course....

One of my favorite posts to read to date. Totally agree!

 

[Robo]

I don't think imposing a clean up fee on pilgrims will work in the long run. Firstly, it will rile those who don't litter and, secondly, I think those who do litter may well take it as carte blanche that they can continue to do so - with impunity - since they would have already paid to have someone clean up their mess. In other words, it will absolve them of any responsibility, quite the opposite of what I am trying to achieve.

What I am trying to do here is to plant the seed of awareness, to introduce the concept on the Camino of each pilgrim taking responsibility for his/her own garbage, to move us all towards trying to walk a little more gently on our earth, and to foster general consideration for our fellow peregrinos and the communities through which we walk - some Camino Etiquette, if you will. When authorities want to get messages out / ideas across, they often start in the schools, the idea being that kids would go home and spread the messages to their families, and thereby to the larger community. In lieu of schools, I thought we could try to introduce this concept via the offices that issue the credentials - after all, each and every pilgrim needs a credential - and if the idea is introduced at that point, over time the idea may just take root. That, combined with the example that some pilgrims have already indicated they try to set by picking up litter along the way, things may slowly start to change. It will take time, there's no doubt about it but, as we so like to say on the Forum, the longest journey starts with a single step.

By the way, I can't help but notice that no one has indicated one way or the other whether initiating this anti-littering concept via the credential issuing offices might or might not work, or if it is something just not to be done. Or whether it is a complete pipe dream on my part. I appreciate that no one is compelled to post on the Forum, but I still wonder.

Certainly an interesting debate.

Though I think the issue here is that those who walk the Camino are all motivated by different things. And trying to modify behaviours of one group to better align with those of another is a challenge. As anyone who has run a business will appreciate....

There are probably two key motivators here. Both could be 'funded' by having to pay for the credencial.

For those who throw trash everywhere. Punishment. A fine or something. (You don't see litter in Singapore)

For those who care more for the environment and the Camino, a reward. Perhaps a contribution to maintenance of the Camino paths, Santiago Cathedral....​

But how would you police such a scheme?

I suspect, the issue is best left to take its own course, as it has for a thousand years. When we (people) try to 'fix' things, we often screw it up in the process, or end up causing more problems through creating behaviours we could never have imagined....

Let Sleeping Dogs ?

 

[MichaelSG]

For those who throw trash everywhere. Punishment. A fine or something. (You don't see litter in Singapore)
​

Ha! Trust me that the reason you don't see litter in Singapore is equal parts of 1) the fines, 2) the army of overseas street sweepers and 3) you aren't looking in the right places.

Apologies for the off-topic comment.​

 

[nidarosa]

But as has been mentioned many times: if the people who litter the most on the Camino are local and/or Spanish, then what do we do? I have seen a lot of litter discarded by ignorant so-and-sos in the UK but I have hardly ever seen foreign peregrinos littering in Spain. Are we to start telling the Spanish how to run their country? I think the best any of us can do is be a better example, bring the topic up gently if we are talking with people we have seen littering, or pick up after others. None of us want a Camino Police. We do what we can and try to spread the message in words and deeds.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

bring the topic up gently if we are talking with people we have seen littering

That is no fun. It is not nearly sanctimonious enough. How do we show our moral superiority?

 

[nidarosa]

By picking up their litter? With a smile?

 

[Icacos]

If I were to witness a Spaniard discarding litter, there is no way I would suggest to him, gently or otherwise, that he might consider not doing so, no matter how long I managed to have a conversation with him (which wouldn't happen anyway, since I'm nowhere near fluent in Spanish). Who am I to suggest to him how he should conduct himself in his own country? The effrontery!!! This is why I have been suggesting that the credential-issuing-offices might be more of a neutral staging point.

Why am I getting the impression that the credential-issuing-offices are sacrosanct? If they are, would someone please say so.

 

[cher99840]

Sacrosanct? Probably not....but as far as I know they are staffed by volunteers from all over the world. Do you really want to lay an additional responsibility upon their shoulders?

 

[Icacos]

Sacrosanct? Probably not....but as far as I know they are staffed by volunteers from all over the world. Do you really want to lay an additional responsibility upon their shoulders?

No, I did not know/appreciate that they were staffed by volunteers (I admit, I should definitely have thought of this, especially considering that the Camino runs itself). And no, I would not want to lay any additional responsibility on their shoulders. Thank you for clarifying that. But .... look how much I am learning, and others too, hopefully, from this little exercise.

I guess @falcon269 knew about which he spoke.

 

[cher99840]

I guess @falcon269 knew about which he spoke.

He usually does, and he conveys the message in fewer words than most of us.

 

[Saramago]

I didn't see any trash on the Frances in the spring and I'm unlikely to see any next spring. One of the benefits of spring - cleaner, quieter, no rush for a bed, unlikely chance to encounter bedbugs. So I surmise it increases as summer comes and into fall. I carried a bag for my snack wrappings, bottles and disposed of them properly. I think a few signs of Leave no Trace in multiple languages (esp Spanish) fitting as we do here in the US. But is it my responsibility to expose myself to illness handing the trash of others in Spain? Absolutely not.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

What's happening with Bill Gates's new toilet?

A bit large for a porta-potty, but development is moving along...

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/omniprocessor/

 

[Tincatinker]

If I were to witness a Spaniard discarding litter, there is no way I would suggest to him, gently or otherwise, that he might consider not doing so, no matter how long I managed to have a conversation with him (which wouldn't happen anyway, since I'm nowhere near fluent in Spanish). Who am I to suggest to him how he should conduct himself in his own country? The effrontery!!!

In 2012 I had the effrontery / bravura / cheek to challenge a Spaniard who discarded his empty water bottle in front of me between Fromista and Villalcazar de Sirga. There was a local Romero and hundreds walking in happy family groups. He told me, with no particular priority, that he had finished with the bottle, it was nothing to do with me, and if it was it was my problem. I picked it up. To provide some balance: earlier that day I had been walking with a pilgrim from Munich on the stretch from Boadilla. He had observed my litter-picking, even waited on a couple of occasions while I cleared a couple of messy patches. He also told me that there was no litter problem in his home country - that people did not drop litter. Just outside Fromista, where the camino crosses the Canal de Castilla we paused for a drink. My companion dropped his water bottle, which split spilling the water. He kicked the remnants into the canal.

And then there was Ray. Somewhere outside Najera I was keeping my promise and picking litter as I walked my first camino. Ray was a lay-preacher from Edmonton. We had shared a table the night before and chatted as you do. Ray caught me up, saw what I was doing, plucked a plastic carrier bag from the hedge and joined in. He didn't say a word and when I thanked him he just smiled.

The camino doesn't need improvement. It just needs Pilgrims.

 

[Thirstywork]

. I would never burn or start a fire. No need (too many crops around) But this guy has a lot of useful tips.

 

[Susan B Johnson]

Unfortunately public toilets, maintained or not, become unsanitary, smelly and disgusting, and I would not care to fork out money to go towards a facility I would not use. I never had the need to pee bad enough on either Camino to want to use one. Good old tree, bush or private spot off the Way worked just fine, though it always seemed that there would be nobody on the route and just as I would be about to do my business, suddenly a group of peregrinos would appear, ha ha.

Well, for a man that might work, but women need to wipe, which results in trash. No, portable toilets do not smell great, but I use them along state trails I have hiked and biked. It's a question of sanitation. With 200,000 people relieving themselves all along the Camino, most during hot weather, and I would imagine the Camino is becoming a smelly walk.

 

[Mark Lee]

Well, for a man that might work, but women need to wipe, which results in trash. No, portable toilets do not smell great, but I use them along state trails I have hiked and biked. It's a question of sanitation. With 200,000 people relieving themselves all along the Camino, most during hot weather, and I would imagine the Camino is becoming a smelly walk.

Nah, it isn't. Sure, I saw a few spots here and there where pilgrims left their toilet paper and such, but those were few and far between. Of course one spot with a bunch of toilet paper on the ground is one spot too many, but it certainly was not epidemic and my nostrils were never assaulted.

 

[Icacos]

.....women need to wipe, which results in trash.

Trash?! A bit of tissue! You pack that out with you, the same as you pack out all your other trash.

 

[SYates]

.., but women need to wipe, which results in trash. ...

Just put a panty liner in your undies each morning and you will not need toilet paper and when you reach the albergue you can discard it properly. Works well for me, SY

 

[Robo]

Well, for a man that might work, but women need to wipe, which results in trash

on our recent Camino my wife, a first timer and not at all a 'pee in the woods' type of girl soon got used to it.

At all times she carried a small amount of TP along with a small zip lock bag to carry it out in.....

No need to leave trash....

the amount of TP left behind 'obvious' peeing places is really a quite dissappointing

 

[jsalt]

The camino doesn't need improvement. It just needs Pilgrims.

Hi, what @Tincatinker said over a year ago. 20 years ago I hiked up Kilimanjaro; the rubbish along the trail was appalling. On the way back down, one of our group picked up a cardboard box, which had been discarded by the porters on the way up, and then proceeded to fill it up by picking up rubbish. After several minutes of watching him we thought OK, shrug, what the hell . . . find a plastic bag (also discarded) and fill it up. After several more minutes our porters joined in. What????? It was fun! As a team we were all picking up garbage. Could this work on the camino? Could we, you and me, forum members, take 2 or 3 garbage bags along on each camino, and deliberately, and prominently, dedicate 2 or 3 days to picking up trash somewhere along the camino? I could do that. Could you do that? What a statement it would make! Jill

 

[mspath]

Hi, what @Tincatinker said over a year ago. 20 years ago I hiked up Kilimanjaro; the rubbish along the trail was appalling. On the way back down, one of our group picked up a cardboard box, which had been discarded by the porters on the way up, and then proceeded to fill it up by picking up rubbish. After several minutes of watching him we thought OK, shrug, what the hell . . . find a plastic bag (also discarded) and fill it up. After several more minutes our porters joined in. What????? It was fun! As a team we were all picking up garbage. Could this work on the camino? Could we, you and me, forum members, take 2 or 3 garbage bags along on each camino, and deliberately, and prominently, dedicate 2 or 3 days to picking up trash somewhere along the camino? I could do that. Could you do that? What a statement it would make! Jill

Many pilgrims have done such a pick up and are presently picking up as they walk. Read more here re some of these good intentions in this earlier Forum thread and AmaWalker blog. May such good ideas and good intentions spread faster than the trash is dumped.

 

[Albertagirl]

@Icacos:
I have seen what you were mentioning above, signs saying that trash should be picked up, on my camino last fall. These signs were in a few albergues, and were combined with a box of plastic bags, which walkers were recommended to take one of and use it to pick up trash along the camino. The signs, as I recall, suggested that the state of the camino was the responsibility of those who walk it. I think they may have been associated with some sort of walking group. The signs were not widespread and I never saw anyone take a bag or anyone but myself picking up litter, except for a couple of pilgrims who joined me on one occasion near a pilgrim memorial.

 

[Nanc]

I saw no reason to participate in the original post as I can't really affect anyone else's behavior but my own. So , since I have not done my Camino, I will do what I always do and pack my self out.
I will judge my ability to help clear others trash as I go based on the circumstances.
As said before, talking amongst ourselves does nothing for those who do not care and probably liter, not due to ignorance but indifference. Those can't be taught
IMHO
Nanc

 

[Icacos]

I have seen ....... signs saying that trash should be picked up, on my camino last fall. These signs were in a few albergues, and were combined with a box of plastic bags, which walkers were recommended to take one of and use it to pick up trash along the camino. The signs, as I recall, suggested that the state of the camino was the responsibility of those who walk it. I think they may have been associated with some sort of walking group.....

Well, I'm happy to hear this. It's a start and a step in the right direction. No matter if few, if any, persons other than you took a bag with the intent of picking up trash. The important thing is getting the idea out there and then, hopefully, it will get folks thinking. It's a long, slow process.

 

[sandykayak]

In another thread someone mentioned taking doggie poop bags for personal trash. That's what I intend to do.

In the US, Dollar Tree sells a box of 50 black bags on the pet section for $1. However, if you head over to the baby items aisle you can get a box of 75 of the same bags for $1!! These are green (and scented so don't use for food) and are for disposing of used diapers/nappies.

They come folded in half and you could fold them again and they would fit in a fisted hand.
Thin plastic. Great for picnic trash or used TP and small items of litter. They are like mini versions of grocery store bags and you just tie the "ears/handles " off to discard. You could clip to your pack or belt or hang off a bicycle handlebar. Do not have a zip top.

Maybe the Chinese stores in Spain carry them.

 

[John Finn]

Honestly, I can't say I saw that much trash left on the Camino (Frances). Sure, there were a few spots where it seemed to be concentrated, but overall not much at all, especially considering around what, 200,000 people walked it this year? That many people there's bound to be some residue of their presence. People will be people.

I totally agree.