Gibraltar

[JabbaPapa]

Gibraltar can be an interesting starting point for a Via de la Plata Camino, including because it has an airport.

So some people may be glad to hear that there are some fairly advanced talks within the midst of all this Brexit stuff to try and maintain Gibraltar within the Schengen Area. There is broad consensus among both Gibraltans and local Spaniards that this should be the case, unlike the political divisions elsewhere, and the negociations involve the UK, Spain, and Gibraltar alone so that they are generally simpler.

I apologise for getting slightly political, but for once it's properly relevant to the Pilgrimage.

 

[Kathar1na]

Gibraltar can be an interesting starting point for a Via de la Plata Camino, including because it has an airport.

So some people may be glad to hear that there are some fairly advanced talks within the midst of all this Brexit stuff to try and maintain Gibraltar within the Schengen Area. There is broad consensus among both Gibraltans and local Spaniards that this should be the case, unlike the political divisions elsewhere, and the negociations involve the UK, Spain, and Gibraltar alone so that they are generally simpler.

I apologise for getting slightly political, but for once it's properly relevant to the Pilgrimage.

Just curious: in what way is the political situation of Gibraltar and of Gibraltar’s border with Spain post post-Brexit transition period of any practical relevance for camino pilgrims?

Out of curiosity, I checked Wikipedia for the physical dimensions of the territory of Gibraltar:

• Length: 5 km (3.10 miles) approx.
• Area: 6.8sq km (2.7 sq miles) approx.
• Circumference Length: 16 km (10 miles) approx.
• Average width: 1.25 km (1 mile) appr

Even at my slow walking speed, I would have walked out of it within two hours max.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Just curious: in what way is the political situation of Gibraltar and of Gibraltar’s border with Spain post post-Brexit transition period of any practical relevance for camino pilgrims?

Because it's one of the starting points for the Via de la Plata, and it has one of the airports that pilgrims can use if they wish to start there or elsewhere nearby.

If it remains inside Schengen, then it will make visa requirements that much easier for those choosing these travel possibilities.

 

[Kathar1na]

I got curious and had a look at what the current situation is, twelve days before 1 January 2021. Oh great, Spain, Gibraltar and the UK are literally minutes away from reaching a historic deal about how to manage workers and visitors crossing the Spain-Gibraltar border forwards and backwards every day, in total about 30 million border crossings a year.

Best quote from the Gibraltar Chief Minister: Mr Picardo said a hard Brexit would mean certain changes such as having to use passports instead of ID cards, but it would not mean the closure of the border. He said contingencies are being put in place but hoped we won't have to use them, adding 30 million wet stamps every year is a lot of waste. [which means how often they would have to stamp passports in Gibraltar from 2021 onwards]

Which led me to contemplate the number of sellos that are put into pilgrim passports every year.

 

[Kathar1na]

If it remains inside Schengen, then it will make visa requirements that much easier for those choosing these travel possibilities.

Makes no sense to me right now but I can wait for 12 days to see what the actual situation is like.

If someone who is not already in Spain wants to start the Via de la Plata from Gibraltar, they can fly into Gibraltar airport where the only flights available are from the UK or Morocco. No matter what, within an hour if not within minutes they will have to enter the EU and the Schengen area to join the Via de la Plata in Spain. Where they enter the EU as well as the Schengen area, i.e. whether at the land border at La Línea or at the air border at Gibraltar airport, if that is what they agree on in the end to be the external border, what practical difference does it make to a prospective Via de la Plata pilgrim?

Are you implying that there will be a loophole for third country nationals, such as UK passport holders and nationals of about 150 other countries to circumvent EU/Schengen visa requirements? And nobody thought of that yet?

 

[Bristle Boy]

Because it's one of the starting points for the Via de la Plata, and it has one of the airports that pilgrims can use if they wish to start there or elsewhere nearby.

If it remains inside Schengen, then it will make visa requirements that much easier for those choosing these travel possibilities.

For me, it sounds an exellent option. Thanks.

Live Flight Information | Airlines & Destinations

All flight information on this website shows real time data received from the airlines and is shown in local time. Gibraltar International Airport does...

www.gibraltarairport.gi

 

[Kathar1na]

If it remains inside Schengen, then it will make visa requirements that much easier for those choosing these travel possibilities.

Gibraltar does not remain inside Schengen because they are not in it and were never in it. They want to join somehow. Exactly what I thought: Prime Minister Boris Johnson has granted permission to Chief Minister Fabian Picardo to explore potential membership of the EU’s Schengen free-travel zone for Gibraltar if he sees fit. “What the legal mechanism to do that is – whether it’s full membership of Schengen, associate membership of Schengen, extension of Schengen or simply treating the entry points at Gibraltar, at the port and at the airport, as Schengen entry points – that is the subject now of our final considerations in order to find a way that is agreeable, a legal framework that is agreeable to all the parties, and that doesn’t cross any of the sovereignty, jurisdiction and control red lines that each of us are bringing to the table,” said Picardo. Source here.

There is no news there. Whatever solution they may come up with in the end will not make visa requirements easier for those who choose to travel to Spain via Gibraltar's airport or seaport.

Yes, you can start the Via de la Plata from Gibraltar and fly from the UK to Gibraltar airport but that is hardly news in December 2020.

 

[Kathar1na]

And to put it more succinctly: if you hold a British passport or the passport of another non-EU country ("third country") the laws about how long you can stay in Spain in 2021 and whether you have to request a visa or are entitled to enjoying the benefits of the EU visa waiver program apply to you no matter where you enter Spain and whether there is a Schengen entry stamp in your passport or not!

 

[Bristle Boy]

And to put it more succinctly: the laws about how long you can stay in Spain and whether you have to request a visa or are entitled to enjoying the benefits of the EU visa waiver program apply to you no matter where you enter Spain and whether there is a Schengen entry stamp in your passport or not!

Too political for me.....

 

[Kathar1na]

Too political for me.....

You don't need to understand the politics, understanding the background is optional. You just have to follow the law when you want to fly to Gibraltar to walk the Via de la Plata in Spain! Which in this case simply boils down to: discard misinformation and acquaint yourselves with the 90/180 thing. That's all you need to figure out . And there are plenty of experienced pilgrims here on the forum from the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand who can explain in case of need.

 

[Bristle Boy]

You don't need to understand the politics, understanding the background is optional. You just have to follow the law when you want to fly to Gibraltar to walk the Via de la Plata in Spain! Which in this case simply boils down to: discard misinformation and acquaint yourselves with the 90/180 thing. That's all you need to figure out . And there are plenty of experienced pilgrims here on the forum from the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand who can explain in case of need.

The post.
As a travel arrangement, for me, it is a good one and worth consideration. When the dust settles I will need a Visa when entering the EU.
When I went to La Linea de la Concepcion i visited Gibraltar on a couple of occasions and went through customs/immigration twice..one Spanish, one UK.
As far as this interminable schengen discussion goes...the UK was never a signatory but adopted it as if we were.
In short, i fell off my perch a long time ago, it is a travel option worthy of consideration much like many threads on this forum have discussed when arriving at the start of a Spanish camino.

 

[VNwalking]

When the dust settles I will need a Visa when entering the EU.

No you won't. You'll just be like the rest of us who come into the Schengen Zone and get an arrival stamp to start our 90-day allowance.

 

[Kathar1na]

As a travel arrangement, for me, it is a good one and worth consideration.

I recommend entering Gibraltar into the forum's search box or starting with this thread in the Via de la Plata/Sanabres subforum: Start in Gibraltar? It has plenty of useful information, including reports from pilgrims who started walking from Gibraltar/La Linea.

 

[Bristle Boy]

No you won't. You'll just be like the rest of us who come into the Schengen Zone and get an arrival stamp to start our 90-day allowance.

Then I will join the great and the good.
I understood this four years ago and at the start of 2020....
This thread interested me due to my ease of travelling within the UK....and that is personal.
And as far as a visa is concerned...I don't care.

 

[Simon B]

Just curious: in what way is the political situation of Gibraltar and of Gibraltar’s border with Spain post post-Brexit transition period of any practical relevance for camino pilgrims?

Out of curiosity, I checked Wikipedia for the physical dimensions of the territory of Gibraltar:

• Length: 5 km (3.10 miles) approx.
• Area: 6.8sq km (2.7 sq miles) approx.
• Circumference Length: 16 km (10 miles) approx.
• Average width: 1.25 km (1 mile) appr

Even at my slow walking speed, I would have walked out of it within two hours max.

The border has at times been tricky and who is to stay that it might be again in a post Brexit future. I lived there for two years in the early 90's and at times the border crossing could take many hours both by car and on foot. This was always caused by political tensions between UK and Spain. Hopefully those days are long gone but you never know.

 

[Kathar1na]

I lived there for two years in the early 90's and at times the border crossing could take many hours both by car and on foot.

Interesting to hear from someone who had actually been there . But don't forget: When you already live in Spain or in Gibraltar, then you are a resident and you are already "in" and there is a different set of rules for your getting in/out and, more importantly, how long you can stay "in" and spend your time on camino walking.

 

[Marcus-UK]

Gibraltar can be an interesting starting point for a Via de la Plata Camino, including because it has an airport.

So some people may be glad to hear that there are some fairly advanced talks within the midst of all this Brexit stuff to try and maintain Gibraltar within the Schengen Area. There is broad consensus among both Gibraltans and local Spaniards that this should be the case, unlike the political divisions elsewhere, and the negociations involve the UK, Spain, and Gibraltar alone so that they are generally simpler.

I apologise for getting slightly political, but for once it's properly relevant to the Pilgrimage.

I have considered this as a starting point for an extended VdlP. Either by taking the Coastal Camino towards Cadiz/Jerez and then taking the Via Augusta to Seville. Then continuing along the Vdlp and Sanabres to SdC. The temptation then would be to continue on to Muxia/Finisterre to make it a Mediterranean to Atlantic coast to coast Journey.
I had planned on doing VdlP/Sanabres this year.
I think the earliest I would contemplate the extended VdLp would be March 2022.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Interesting to hear from someone who had actually been there . But don't forget: When you already live in Spain or in Gibraltar, then you are a resident and you are already "in" and there is a different set of rules for your getting in/out and, more importantly, how long you can stay "in" and spend your time on camino walking.

I know I'm slow....but 90 days?

 

[VNwalking]

Alan Sykes has good things to say about walking fro Gibraltar:

Last year I walked from Tárifa to La Línea (Gibraltar) and then on the Vía Serrana to join the VdlP at Seville. It was extremely lovely, although quite hard work in places - ~200m of ascent in 1km up (and down) the Cañon de las Buitreras, near Jimena de la Frontera, for example. Arriving in Ronda on foot was very special (and arriving that way in Seville, of course). I'd say it was a perfect prelude to the VdlP, or a perfect little winter camino in its own right.

 

[Kathar1na]

A quick reminder for those like me who don't have a photographic memory : the location of Gibraltar and their airport in relation to the major caminos and major towns with international airports such as Malaga or Sevilla.

 

[Marcus-UK]

Interesting to hear from someone who had actually been there . But don't forget: When you already live in Spain or in Gibraltar, then you are a resident and you are already "in" and there is a different set of rules for your getting in/out and, more importantly, how long you can stay "in" and spend your time on camino walking.

Having done border patrol in my teenage years in Gibraltar. There is very litlle stopping anyone walking round the gap in the border fence between the airport and Sea from Gibralter into Spain. The British guards won't stop you and the Spanish guards actually face into Spain and not outwards! You are then straight on to a public beach.
It was only 43 years ago and nothing much has changed since then!

 

[Kathar1na]

It was only 43 years ago and nothing much has changed since then!

Sure. Spain doesn't regard this border as an international boundary (it's complicated).

That's why I said that you (not you personally but the proverbial Via de la Plata pilgrim who arrived at Gibraltar airport as a non-EU citizen) must follow the law on length of stay etc., no matter where you entered Spain and whether there is a Schengen entry stamp in your passport or not!

And if they start putting Schengen entry/exit stamps into British passports next month, which I think they will, then you better make sure that you get that entry stamp ... or else, keep a LOT of receipts ...

All this is years old, actually. And since it will probably come up again now and then, here's something to read in the meantime from traveller reports on Stackexchange: How does Schengen know that I didn't overstay if exiting through Gibraltar by air?

 

[Bristle Boy]

Sure. That's why I said that you (not you personally but the proverbial Via de la Plata pilgrim who arrived at Gibraltar airport as a non-EU citizen) must follow the law on length of stay etc., no matter where you entered Spain and whether there is a Schengen entry stamp in your passport or not!

The law must be followed wherever....
And 90 days is more than enough for me.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Too political for me.....

I agree.

 

[Bristle Boy]

You don't need to understand the politics, understanding the background is optional. You just have to follow the law when you want to fly to Gibraltar to walk the Via de la Plata in Spain! Which in this case simply boils down to: discard misinformation and acquaint yourselves with the 90/180 thing. That's all you need to figure out . And there are plenty of experienced pilgrims here on the forum from the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand who can explain in case of need.

How patronising.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I have considered this as a starting point for an extended VdlP. Either by taking the Coastal Camino towards Cadiz/Jerez and then taking the Via Augusta to Seville. Then continuing along the Vdlp and Sanabres to SdC. The temptation then would be to continue on to Muxia/Finisterre to make it a Mediterranean to Atlantic coast to coast Journey.
I had planned on doing VdlP/Sanabres this year.
I think the earliest I would contemplate the extended VdLp would be March 2022.

There's a direct waymarked Camino from Gibraltar, joining up to the main route of the Via de la Plata at Seville.

Cadiz of course is also another major historic starting point of not only the Camino, but also of the Via Romea and the Way to Jerusalem. By the broadest definition of the road, though historians quarrel about it, the Via Aurelia can be said to stretch between Cadiz and Rome.

 

[JabbaPapa]

No you won't. You'll just be like the rest of us who come into the Schengen Zone and get an arrival stamp to start our 90-day allowance.

Yes he might and no he might not -- those of not every nationality can enter the Schengen area or the EU without a visa.

If Gib stays within Schengen (or if some might prefer it to be expressed, remains in the Common Market), then it will remain as a convenient travel destination or starting point for a Camino, whereas the contrary would clearly complicate matters.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Yes he might and no he might not -- those of not every nationality can enter the Schengen area or the EU without a visa.

If Gib stays within Schengen (or if some might prefer it to be expressed, remains in the Common Market), then it will remain as a convenient travel destination or starting point for a Camino, whereas the contrary would clearly complicate matters.

I must admit I didnt understand the quote "No you wont".
I have never said I could fly into Gibraltar and enter Spain without a visa.
I suggest that a re reading of my post could explain the "No you wont"
My posts have purely been about starting from Gibraltar...a Southern Spain start is something I have never considered.

 

[Tincatinker]

If Gib stays within Schengen (or if some might prefer it to be expressed, remains in the Common Market), then it will remain as a convenient travel destination or starting point for a Camino, whereas the contrary would clearly complicate matters.

Gibraltar is not part of the Schengen treaty zone and it will leave the EU at 11pm on the 31st December. Otherwise your reasoning is sound.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Gibraltar is not part of the Schengen treaty zone

If this were a political or general discussion forum, well ... (and 0 AM 1st January local time)

As things stand, thank you for your kind and friendly comment.

 

[peregrina2000]

I confess that I have made a practice of not following along on threads that layer unknowns upon permutations of knowns with the odd bit of misinformation unintentionally thrown in. But when several forum members report a thread as “petty bickering,” I think the time has come to close it. Maybe once the dust settles and more of the unknowns become knowns a new thread would be helpful.