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Goodbye to the Forum!

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Former member 98814

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I joined this forum a month ago straight after doing my first camino. I'm pretty familiar with the rough and tumble of forums but I didn't anticipate the level of toxicity from the get go on here. It has been a real shock and unsettling to say the least. Dare I say it feels really negative on here, though there are a number of members trying valiantly to inject a bit of positivity into the forums. I have ventured into participating but I've gone away one too many times feeling a bit crappy from the experience. My experience is that anything that smacks of a novel idea will draw on the trolls. It is difficult to describe the sanctimoniousness of many members without coming off like that myself. I just hope the people online are not like this in real life. So goodbye to this forum! I wish you all well! Life is too short to surround oneself with negativity. Shaking the dust off my feet and moving on. Please people think before you post hurtful comments.
 
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henrythedog

Loved and fed by David
Past OR future Camino
Frances 2017, 2018, 2019, Ingles 2018, (Madrid 2019 partial - retired hurt!) (more planned)
I joined this forum a month ago straight after doing my first camino. I'm pretty familiar with the rough and tumble of forums but I didn't anticipate the level of toxicity from the get go on here. It has been a real shock and unsettling to say the least. Dare I say it feels really negative on here, though there are a number of members trying valiantly to inject a bit of positivity into the forums. I have ventured into participating but I've gone away one too many times feeling a bit crappy from the experience. My experience is that anything that smacks of a novel idea will draw on the trolls. It is difficult to describe the sanctimoniousness of many members without coming off like that myself. I just hope the people online are not like this in real life. So goodbye to this forum! I wish you all well! Life is too short to surround oneself with negativity. Shaking the dust off my feet and moving on. Please people think before you post hurtful comments.

IMHO there’s vastly more good than bad on here - compared to vast swathes of the internet this forum operates with almost archaic civility.

My view is almost diametrically opposed to yours - I’ve considered calling it a day previously because of the almost total lack of confrontation. Even when someone who obviously shouldn’t be allowed to cross the road on their own signs up and initiates yet another ‘walking poles / two stamps from Sarria / which type of Osprey rucksack / I’ve never walked 200 yards, can I do the Camino’ thread and I desperately want to tell them to go forth and multiply.

Perhaps you shouldn’t be so disheartened that your thoughts on albergue booking didn’t get universal acclaim; but that’s up to you.

Best wishes.

(On most forums I participate in someone flouncing off would be simply told in four-letter terms not to slam the door on their way out; but most of us are not like that on here …)
 

trecile

Camino Addict
Past OR future Camino
Francés (2016 & 2017), Norte (2018), Francés-Salvador-Norte (2019), Portuguese (2019)
Sorry that the forum wasn't a good fit for you. The forum was invaluable to me when I was planning my first Camino but you do need to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff, and let perceived negative comments roll off your back.
 
F

Former member 31048

Guest
@Mel C I get it. For what it's worth, my observation is that it's often the same people responding in rude or hurtful ways - even if that is not their intention. I have walked a few caminos so happy to be helpful if I can. I'll send you my email address which you'll hopefully get before you take yourself off the forum. I wish you well.
 

Robo

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
CF SJPdP to SdC
(May 2015)
CF Sarria to SdC
(May 2016)
CF SJPDP-SdC
(May 2018)
VdlP (2022?)
Sorry to hear that you are leaving.

Forums are fickle places at times.

Full of a broad cross section of people, many with quite strong views and opinions that they like to share now and again!

I remember many years ago when venturing onto a Forum, being given the advice that it was rather like wandering into the local village pub in the UK.

Those not from the UK will be unfamiliar with the concept.

But maybe think of the bar in Cheers, where "everyone knows your name" as the theme song goes. But on steroids. Everyone really knows everyone.

Most of the active members know each other here, and have shared many conversations over the years.
Many will know of the personal trials and tribulations that certain members of the community have gone through. The relationship break-ups, the major health issues, the bereavements. The personal demons they have struggled with. It's that kind of community. Very caring, once you get to know them.

Having been a member of various forums over the years, that covered a range of topics, and having even run my own for 10 years (business related), I have to say I find this one unique.

It really is a 'community'. And sure, like any community or family, there are a few oddballs, the ones who speak without thinking sometimes, the ones who speak more than 'listen'. And the ones who speak very rarely, but when they do, share something quite profound. We know who they are, but they are family.

It's a real melting pot here. And @ivar and the moderators do a great job keeping the 'kids' under control most of the time.

Sometimes there is an argument here and there, some harsh words, maybe some thoughtless words.
And sometimes the first reaction is to leave the Forum, because it somehow feels hostile, or we don't feel heard.

I have done that myself.........

But I calmed down, and came back. Because if there is one thing the Camino has taught me, it's to be more tolerant of others and not to judge too harshly. And Yes, you may feel you were judged quickly and treated harshly.

Coming back to the Cheers analogy, when we find this great community, we might jump in a bit too quick. Sometimes in our enthusiasm to share, or suggest things, particularly new things that look obvious to 'us', we might tread on the toes of those who have been coming to this bar for 20 years or more. We might tread on their beliefs, values and views of how things are or should be. Often a shared view, because maybe that's what drew them to this bar in the first place. They felt at home, and safe.

So in a new city, in a new bar, it can make sense to spend a while 'lurking' and 'watching'. Getting a sense of the vibe, and how the community 'thinks' and who are the ones with the strong opinions, or wrong opinions! That way we can 'ease' into the community, and start to become part of it, and then.........start suggesting new ideas and ways of doing things.

I'm sorry that your initial experience was not good :(
 
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F

Former member 98814

Guest
Sorry to hear that you are leaving.

Forums are fickle places at times.

Full of a broad cross section of people, many with quite strong views and opinions that they like to share now and again!

I remember many years ago when venturing onto a Forum, being given the advice that it was rather like wandering into the local village pub in the UK.

Those not from the UK will be unfamiliar with the concept.

But maybe think of the bar in Cheers, where "everyone knows your name" as the theme song goes. But on steroids. Everyone really knows everyone.

Most of the active members know each other here, and have shared many conversations over the years.
Many will know of the personal trials and tribulations that certain members of the community have gone through. The relationship break-ups, the major health issues, the bereavements. The personal demons they have struggled with. It's that kind of community. Very caring, once you get to know them.

Having been a member of various forums over the years, that covered a range of topics, and having even run my own for 10 years (business related), I have to say I find this one unique.

It really is a 'community'. And sure, like any community or family, there are a few oddballs, the ones who speak without thinking sometimes, the ones who speak more than 'listen'. And the ones who speak very rarely, but when they do, share something quite profound. We know who they are, but they are family.

It's a real melting pot here. And @ivar and the moderators do a great job keeping the 'kids' under control most of the time.

Sometimes there is an argument here and there, some harsh words, maybe some thoughtless words.
And sometimes the first reaction is to leave the Forum, because it somehow feels hostile, or we don't feel heard.

I have done that myself.........

But I calmed down, and came back. Because if there is one thing the Camino has taught me, it's to be more tolerant of others and not to judge too harshly. And Yes, you may feel you were judged quickly and treated harshly.

Coming back to the Cheers analogy, when we find this great community, we might jump in a bit too quick. Sometimes in our enthusiasm to share, or suggest things, particularly new things that look obvious to 'us', we might tread on the toes of those who have been coming to this bar for 20 years or more. We might tread on their beliefs, values and views of how things are or should be. Often a shared view, because maybe that's what drew them to this bar in the first place. They felt at home, and safe.

So in a new city, in a new bar, it can make sense to spend a while 'lurking' and 'watching'. Getting a sense of the vibe, and how the community 'thinks' and who are the ones with the strong opinions, or wrong opinions! That way we can 'ease' into the community, and start to become part of it, and then.........start suggesting new ideas and ways of doing things.

I'm sorry that your initial experience was not good :(
I think when I was a few years younger I'd have enjoyed all the combative snarkiness and given as good as I got but I have since seen what a waste of time and energy the trolling activity is. I run a YouTube channel and keep a very positive vibe amongst the community in the comment section. Without giving the channel name a way, it deals with a lot of hot button issues and has a much more religious diverse viewers than on here but there isn't the tangible lack of respect that is evident on this forum. It is a real shame. I think maybe people think that I was just annoyed that any ideas I proposed got shot down as if I'm precious about them. That's not the case. I dislike the way people engage with each other on the forum. One forum post, I saw earlier today which was thankfully closed, began with a polite request as regards whether unvaccinated people are allowed in the albergues. The response was pretty typical: he was immediately labelled as selfish for daring to risk infecting the vaccinated (who says irony is dead?) and that he should just stay at home. Where was the sense of charity? Where was the sense that everyone is equal or that people have the right to be different? I don't want to get side-tracked with that example but it seems to occur a lot. It is a habitual kneejerk reaction. I can imagine in the virtual world of this forum, if someone sheepishly asked for directions, they'd be quickly told by two thirds of the forum, that they were stupid for not having a map and a compass. For me the best thing about the camino is the camino; this is at the other end of the spectrum.
 
F

Former member 31048

Guest
PS @Mel C if you're still there.. A while back I confided privately with a forum member after witnessing some really unkind, patronising and judgemental remarks (not to me but to another member). The forum member told me that there is an 'ignore' button - which allows you to ignore any posts or comments from particular members - much as you might avoid that behaviour in real life, where possible. There are a couple who fall into this category for me - and now that I don't see their comments, I find the forum a more positive space.
 
F

Former member 98814

Guest
PS @Mel C if you're still there.. A while back I confided privately with a forum member after witnessing some really unkind, patronising and judgemental remarks (not to me but to another member). The forum member told me that there is an 'ignore' button - which allows you to ignore any posts or comments from particular members - much as you might avoid that behaviour in real life, where possible. There are a couple who fall into this category for me - and now that I don't see their comments, I find the forum a more positive space.
Thanks! I will start using the ignore button. That should make the experience a little bit less emotionally corrosive.
 

Smallest_Sparrow

Life is rarely what you expect or believe it to be
Past OR future Camino
2012: most of some, all of a few, a bit of others
I’m sorry you feel that way but if it’s best for you to leave then Buen Camino. You do need to take an open mind to others opinions here, even if people don’t agree with you—people disagreeing aren’t trolls, they disagree with you.
 

Dani7

Stop wishing, start doing.
Past OR future Camino
Camino Frances
When the time is right
Since I’ve yet to do my first Camino (now planned for 2023, was all set for spring 2020 😢) this forum keeps me current by members who know a great deal from past experience and also for staying up to date during the pandemic.

If a thread goes down a rabbit hole with too many strong opinions I take a break from reading and check in now and then just to keep up to date about what’s going on in Spain and Europe. I take from the forum what I need and stay away from the rest. It keeps my own opinions in check.

Knowledge is powerful and sometimes staying humble is a challenge when you know a lot about a particular subject.

Ivar and the moderators do as good a job as they can to keep it on point and civil. Opinions are neither right or wrong and the strong ones can reel you in to go head to head. That’s when I take a break. I just want to have a few moments in my day to feel connected to the Camino. It’s far from perfect…and that’s ok.
 
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Pilgrim9

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
SJPdP-SdC (2017)
SdC-Muxia-Fisterra-SdC (2017)
Lisboa-SdC (2018)
Ferrol-SdC (2018)
I joined this forum a month ago straight after doing my first camino. I'm pretty familiar with the rough and tumble of forums but I didn't anticipate the level of toxicity from the get go on here. It has been a real shock and unsettling to say the least. Dare I say it feels really negative on here, though there are a number of members trying valiantly to inject a bit of positivity into the forums. I have ventured into participating but I've gone away one too many times feeling a bit crappy from the experience. My experience is that anything that smacks of a novel idea will draw on the trolls. It is difficult to describe the sanctimoniousness of many members without coming off like that myself. I just hope the people online are not like this in real life. So goodbye to this forum! I wish you all well! Life is too short to surround oneself with negativity. Shaking the dust off my feet and moving on. Please people think before you post hurtful comments.

I liked your idea about an albergue availability/booking app and was pretty surprised at how unreceptive some folks were. In my experience most members of this forum are not like that.

Every branch of life needs to stay receptive to new ideas to help avoid stagnation.

I am very sorry that your first attempt to sow seeds of thought fell on stony ground.
 
F

Former member 31048

Guest
And although I can’t speak for @Mel C, I do think the issue is not that people disagree - it’s good to have diverse opinions - but that some choose to express their opinions in a scathing, sarcastic, rude way, which is surely unnecessary. It’s often jarring for some forum members (it is for me) and may be especially so for new members.
 
Past OR future Camino
2014, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
Various routes...
@Mel C , I was sorry to read your post.
And a little surprised because my experience here has been pretty much the opposite. What @Robo said is basically what I'd have written, too.

That doesn't negate your experience, though. And the last thing any of us need right now is more aggravation. Life is challenging enough.

But I do hope you find a way to stick around, because we are as a community strengthened by many viewpoints; disagreements are not bad, so long as they don't get nasty and personal. The mods do a remarkable job, but they can't catch all the bad posts. So as @Jenny@zen said, you can block people who are a pain. I've done it on occasion and it helps if there's someone who's poisonous. And if there's a post that's over the line, do report it.

Whether yoy stay or go, buen camino, peregrino!
 

CAJohn

Member
Past OR future Camino
Frances Sept/Oct 2019
I have found the people on this forum quite nice overall. I have even seen people apologize for coming off rude or brusk, because that wasn't their intention.

One of the things that I have noticed on this forum is that posts that pit one group against another are going to get responses that pit people against each other.

I have also noticed that posts that criticize how the locals do things in Spain are going to generate contrary responses, because it will be perceived as pitting people against each other even if the local Spanish population that are the subject of the post aren't participating. Some will feel the need to defend the locals.

When we use hot button issues in posts (like Covid) even as asides, we are going to provoke responses.

I personally have never gotten flack for any of my posts that were positive or encouraging towards other members of the forum. Perhaps that is the key to pleasant interactions on the board and in life in general.
 
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JillGat

la tierra encantada
Past OR future Camino
2018
PS @Mel C if you're still there.. A while back I confided privately with a forum member after witnessing some really unkind, patronising and judgemental remarks (not to me but to another member). The forum member told me that there is an 'ignore' button - which allows you to ignore any posts or comments from particular members - much as you might avoid that behaviour in real life, where possible. There are a couple who fall into this category for me - and now that I don't see their comments, I find the forum a more positive space.
I've found some really wonderful people on this forum who are endlessly patient, helpful and even inspiring. Really lovely folks. Only one offended me - or I should say was apparently offended by what I thought were innocent posts of mine. I found this person's responses to me inexplicable and hurtful. With that person ignored, the problem is solved.
 
Past OR future Camino
06,CF;13,CP;17,SSal;19,Ingles
I joined this forum a month ago straight after doing my first camino. I'm pretty familiar with the rough and tumble of forums but I didn't anticipate the level of toxicity from the get go on here. It has been a real shock and unsettling to say the least. Dare I say it feels really negative on here, though there are a number of members trying valiantly to inject a bit of positivity into the forums. I have ventured into participating but I've gone away one too many times feeling a bit crappy from the experience. My experience is that anything that smacks of a novel idea will draw on the trolls. It is difficult to describe the sanctimoniousness of many members without coming off like that myself. I just hope the people online are not like this in real life. So goodbye to this forum! I wish you all well! Life is too short to surround oneself with negativity. Shaking the dust off my feet and moving on. Please people think before you post hurtful comments.
This all happened while I was in the land of Nod!
Mel, I hope you are going to shake off the dust of saying you are going to leave the forum.
I don't ignore any posters with a button. I just don't read a lot of threads. Like in the kitchen - I ignore the dust on the top shelves as I can't see it! There will be some reading this who don't read my posts. A line from Bob Dylan is apt here!
I am looking forward to meeting a forum member this morning for a coffee. I have met other forum members over the years - a great advantage of living in Dublin, it is a jumping off point, for transiting as well as for those who live locally or visit from elsewhere in the country. I see you are from Ireland. If you would like to meet for a coffee...do send a pm. Buen camino!
 

truenorthpilgrim

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
Camino Norte post-pandemic
I’m part of a few Facebook groups and let me tell you those places can be terribly snarky and toxic. In fact, I left the APOC Facebook group solely because of the high and mighty gatekeeping mentality on there. The reason I love this forum is because it’s tightly moderated; if things get out of hand or the thread is going nowhere, comments are closed with very little drama. I’m always impressed at the member’s contributions. Many are generous, thoughtful and gracious.

The threads involving violence against women/overall safety for women (on or off the Camino) is where I’m extremely vocal, probably abrupt-and I won’t apologize for that ever.

That being said, we’re all still living in a pandemic (soon to be endemic). Perhaps there is severe nostalgia floating around at “what used to be”. Though I didn’t comment on your “waiting in line for compostela” post, I did glance at it and thought wow you walked the entire camino and your gripe was standing in line? What a bummer. As far as the albergue bed post…I mean, the only real change I want to see on the Camino is 100% less litter. No toilet paper on the roads, no disposal masks, and a lot more respect for the land.

I digress. The reality is, life is heavy nowadays and tempers flare much more easily than two years ago….my .02 cents.
 
Last edited:

wayfarer

Moderator
Staff member
Past OR future Camino
2012
And although I can’t speak for @Mel C, I do think the issue is not that people disagree - it’s good to have diverse opinions - but that some choose to express their opinions in a scathing, sarcastic, rude way, which is surely unnecessary. It’s often jarring for some forum members (it is for me) and may be especially so for new members.
If anyone feels that they have been treated rudely or that a response to a post is a personal attack please use the "Report" button. The moderators cannot read every post, we are volunteers, and we depend on reports to give us a heads up when things stray off the straight and narrow.
 

David

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
2005
Hi Mel, I understand how you feel but I do think that you should reconsider ... you have done a Camino so you have the ability to help others.
The moderators are pretty good at what they do and will delete posts when they see that they are not kind but, it is a forum, an open market place, filled with all types of humans .... expect tensions sometimes.

I looked through your posts but it seems that responses that upset you have been removed as I couldn't find any.
The problem seems to be that we aren't at a pub table, we can't see expressions, hear the tone of things said, we are without that human toing and froing .. what can seem cold and rude in text can be different at table .. but you know this.

The thing is, Mel, you cannot have the forum that you want, one where you can state your views and no one disagrees with you, forums, people, are just not like that.

Mel, stay ... bend with that breeze, help others.

Buen Camino
 
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Bristle Boy

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
2022
Hi Mel,
The forum is a microcosm of everyday life centralised on one subject and all the sub divisions of that..... and much more. There will be a variety of ideas and opinions on everything and the full spectrum can be on display sometimes.
I read your last thread and you had a lot of good points and made them well. You were trying to bring together to the benefit of many...I got that.
Why harness your inner Carl Lewis/Flo Jo.when you didn't need to and at the end of the day? Your ideas could have benefited many.

Stick at it...there is far more good than bad. If you leave too early you will never hear about @David square wheeled trolley or his "Pool Queues" ideas....they are corkers and lighten up any day.
 
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A Kerryman

Member
Past OR future Camino
2018,2019, 2021
I joined this forum a month ago straight after doing my first camino. I'm pretty familiar with the rough and tumble of forums but I didn't anticipate the level of toxicity from the get go on here. It has been a real shock and unsettling to say the least. Dare I say it feels really negative on here, though there are a number of members trying valiantly to inject a bit of positivity into the forums. I have ventured into participating but I've gone away one too many times feeling a bit crappy from the experience. My experience is that anything that smacks of a novel idea will draw on the trolls. It is difficult to describe the sanctimoniousness of many members without coming off like that myself. I just hope the people online are not like this in real life. So goodbye to this forum! I wish you all well! Life is too short to surround oneself with negativity. Shaking the dust off my feet and moving on. Please people think before you post hurtful comments.
Mel , treat the forum like you would treat the Camino , if you meet someone interesting you walk awhile with them .
If it doesn’t seem right you walk on .
i think the forum is like that , a mixture but overall everybody here loves the Camino , it’s just some feel that it’s theirs alone and suffocate the others with their views .
 
F

Former member 98814

Guest
I’m sorry you feel that way but if it’s best for you to leave then Buen Camino. You do need to take an open mind to others opinions here, even if people don’t agree with you—people disagreeing aren’t trolls, they disagree with you.
That's flaming gaslighting! Being rude and discourteous is being rude and discourteous regardless of whether it is agreeing or disagreeing.
 
F

Former member 98814

Guest
Hi Mel, I understand how you feel but I do think that you should reconsider ... you have done a Camino so you have the ability to help others.
The moderators are pretty good at what they do and will delete posts when they see that they are not kind but, it is a forum, an open market place, filled with all types of humans .... expect tensions sometimes.

I looked through your posts but it seems that responses that upset you have been removed as I couldn't find any.
The problem seems to be that we aren't at a pub table, we can't see expressions, hear the tone of things said, we are without that human toing and froing .. what can seem cold and rude in text can be different at table .. but you know this.

The thing is, Mel, you cannot have the forum that you want, one where you can state your views and no one disagrees with you, forums, people, are just not like that.

Mel, stay ... bend with that breeze, help others.

Buen Camino
Probably for the umpteen time, I have no problem with disagreement, it is the preachy, condescending, moralising backlash I so frequently experience that is uniquely and awfully an element on here. I've been told there is an ignore button so I will see if that filters the worst of it.
 
F

Former member 31048

Guest
If anyone feels that they have been treated rudely or that a response to a post is a personal attack please use the "Report" button. The moderators cannot read every post, we are volunteers, and we depend on reports to give us a heads up when things stray off the straight and narrow.
Thanks @wayfarer None of my posts have ever attracted such responses - but I've certainly been appalled by some I've seen - so much so that a few times I have felt the need to make an observation about that. So, I very much appreciate the time and effort of the volunteer moderators. And indeed have appreciated seeing that moderators have closed some threads that had become particularly nasty. Muchas gracias.
 
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Past OR future Camino
2014, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
Various routes...
I've certainly been appalled by some I've seen - so much so that a few times I have felt the need to make an observation about that.
You can report an aggressive, snsrky, or out of bounds post whether it's a reply to one of yours or not. That'll alert the mods so they can decide what to do with it.
 

Turga

Camino tortuga
Past OR future Camino
CF (Aug/Sep 2017)
CF (Aug/Sep 2018)
That's flaming gaslighting! Being rude and discourteous is being rude and discourteous regardless of whether it is agreeing or disagreeing.
Probably for the umpteen time, I have no problem with disagreement, it is the preachy, condescending, moralising backlash I so frequently experience that is uniquely and awfully an element on here. I've been told there is an ignore button so I will see if that filters the worst of it.

Perhaps you should consider the courteousness and ‘tone’ of your own responses? I don’t see how they add anything positive to this forum.
 
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