Growing pains or change in personality?

[peregrina2000]

On several recent occasions, I have read posts in which forum members commented about the negativity and aggression that they see routinely on the forum. That is not a good development, and it is not something that people would have commented on as recently as a few years ago. There have always been dust-ups, and I'm sure that most long time members can identify a couple of people who routinely fire off at each other, but my impression has always been that we are open and tolerant and know how to maintain a sense of civil, well-mannered respect. For at least some members, those do not seem to be the ground rules any more.

I have also been one of the mods who has erred more on the side of being less quick to pull the "delete" trigger, since my own cultural background is one of the "marketplace of ideas", freedom from censorship, etc etc. But this hands-off attitude may be partly responsible for the big increase I see in posts that I would characterize as "dog grabbing pant leg and unwilling to let go" approach to the Camino forum.

If you want to tell a forum member you think he or she just made up what was just posted, or if you want to say that you think a topic is silly and boring, can you please ask yourself why you need to say that? And if you do need to say that, take it to a private conversation.

I speak only for myself on this but I am going to try my hardest to get us back to that happy place where we shared our disagreements without getting into this pointless negativity.

Buen camino, Laurie

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Both Conversation and Ignore are badly underused! If a Member rubs you the wrong way, put him/her on your Ignore list. Praise in public, reprimand in private. Use a Conversation for posts that you know will lead to conflict. Leave the rest of us out of it! While it is just my opinion, Laurie has it right.

 

[timr]

Both Conversation and Ignore are badly underused! If a Member rubs you the wrong way, put him/her on your Ignore list. Praise in public, reprimand in private. Use a Conversation for posts that you know will lead to conflict. Leave the rest of us out of it! While it is just my opinion, Laurie has it right.

Now seems a good time to ask how exactly the Ignore list functions? I have often been tempted..... Will it actually stop posts appearing on my view of the forum?
I presume (I think) that someone would not be aware that they had been placed on someone else's ignore list?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

how exactly the Ignore list functions?

Posts simply do not appear except to show that there is one by someone you are ignoring.

 

[cher99840]

I so agree with the change in tone of the forum. In my 12 step program we meet to share our experience, strength and hope. That's what this forum used to do for me. I gained insight from others' experience and shared what worked for me. Now I find myself mostly here to read the comments which equates to rubbernecking a train wreck. That attitude doesn't say much for me or for the current state of the forum...IMHO.

 

[ivar]

Now seems a good time to ask how exactly the Ignore list functions? I have often been tempted..... Will it actually stop posts appearing on my view of the forum?
I presume (I think) that someone would not be aware that they had been placed on someone else's ignore list?

You put forum members on your "Ignore" list here:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/account/ignored
...you will not see anything written by this user, if he/she is on your ignore list.

Hope this helps!
Ivar

 

[Doogman]

Thanks very much to Laurie for raising this issue again. I am not a heavy contributor to the Forum like many others, but I do check in here a few times almost every day if I can to see what is new, and I have been thinking the very same thoughts about the increase in negativity just in the past few months. I am certain that I am not perfect in this regard, but let's all try to take a deep breath and wait a few seconds before hitting the "Post Reply" button. I think we will all find it a better experience.

 

[Former member 49149]

Synchronicity... I had been vaguely composing a message for moderators, but peregrina2000 came in before I hit the keyboard. A recent post made me say: think twice before posting, and also, keep to the point. I was speaking to myself, by the way. Then I went out for a lovely walk and forgot all about it till now. I do enjoy scanning the forum, and learn a lot, and get a few smiles. My lesson for today, again: think even more than twice, my way of seeing something could so easily be skewed and far from intention of poster.

 

[grayland]

Both Conversation and Ignore are badly underused! If a Member rubs you the wrong way, put him/her on your Ignore list. Praise in public, reprimand in private. Use a Conversation for posts that you know will lead to conflict. Leave the rest of us out of it! While it is just my opinion, Laurie has it right.

Thanks Falcon...
This is very good advice and I hope members will give some thought to this.

 

[Tia Valeria]

'Ignore' helps, but if a post is quoted by another post does it then appear?
Also while it is possible to ignore 'bad behaviour' does it excuse it?
I have used the facility rarely, but negativity does seem to be getting more common, which is sad.

 

[SabsP]

'Ignore' helps, but if a post is quoted by another post does it then appear?
Also while it is possible to ignore 'bad behaviour' does it excuse it?
I have used the facility rarely, but negativity does seem to be getting more common, which is sad.

Exactly.
On rare occasions I ignore posters but for the continuity of a thread it might be confusing.
I cannot see the posts of the member I ignore but that way I might repeat the same advice he or she has given in an earlier post already.
This can be the case for practical topics.
Hmm...does this make sense?

 

[Sparrow in Texas]

I was involved in some "unpleasantness" on a recent thread. In spite of my best efforts to word my thoughts carefully, they invoked some strong reactions which was not my intention at all. I am sorry to all of you and am grateful for all the difficult work that our moderators do.

 

[alexwalker]

On several recent occasions, I have read posts in which forum members commented about the negativity and aggression that they see routinely on the forum. That is not a good development, and it is not something that people would have commented on as recently as a few years ago. There have always been dust-ups, and I'm sure that most long time members can identify a couple of people who routinely fire off at each other, but my impression has always been that we are open and tolerant and know how to maintain a sense of civil, well-mannered respect. For at least some members, those do not seem to be the ground rules any more.

I have also been one of the mods who has erred more on the side of being less quick to pull the "delete" trigger, since my own cultural background is one of the "marketplace of ideas", freedom from censorship, etc etc. But this hands-off attitude may be partly responsible for the big increase I see in posts that I would characterize as "dog grabbing pant leg and unwilling to let go" approach to the Camino forum.

If you want to tell a forum member you think he or she just made up what was just posted, or if you want to say that you think a topic is silly and boring, can you please ask yourself why you need to say that? And if you do need to say that, take it to a private conversation.

I speak only for myself on this but I am going to try my hardest to get us back to that happy place where we shared our disagreements without getting into this pointless negativity.

Buen camino, Laurie

I have noticed what you highlight.

I will not advice using "Ignore": That means that the "problem" still exists for all others. Instead, use a PM warning, and if it doesn't work, remove it (him/her).

PS: I hope I do not get a PM from you...

Edit: I forgot to say that recently, when I see some certain user(s)s posting, I tread more carefully, reluctant to participate.

 

[Sheesh]

....I speak only for myself on this...

You speak for me too Laurie.

 

[Theatregal]

Thank you Laurie. Your post is much appreciated.

 

[grayland]

PS: I hope I do not get a PM from you...

Edit: I forgot to say that recently, when I see some certain user(s)s posting, I thread more carefully, reluctant to participate.

....you do have a PM from ME . Check your inbox.

 

[alexwalker]

....you do have a PM from ME . Check your inbox.

Checked and answered. I knew it was coming... Joking.

 

[C clearly]

Another thing to consider before hitting "post" is whether one's post is motivated by the wish to show superior knowledge (i.e. one-upmanship). Then I challenge myself to act maturely!

 

[alexwalker]

There is a reason why we have been equipped with 2 eyes and ears, and only one mouth: Think before you speak. It would do many people good to lean back and reflect before speaking (writing).

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The forum is just a corner of a much larger world. And the much larger world seems like it's becoming a much less friendly and helpful place. We bring our burdens and stress and nasty old Selves with us wherever we go, even a quiet oasis like Ivar's Site. I don't think it's a personality change, I think it's just us being Human, in an inhumane world.

I must say I've noticed an uptick in people appearing here and in other online places, demanding instant information, telling everyone right off the bat "I don't want to hear any discussion or options -- just direct answers!" Which shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what "FORUM" means, not to mention a lack of good manners.
I am happy that others often get there before I do, and give these children soft answers and sweet kindness. Because I am not that kind of nice!

It's important to remember that this forum is kinda like Noah's Ark: we are all colors and shapes, sizes and species, drawn here from all over the world and hopefully moving forward toward a shared destination. Some of us elephants like throwing our weight around sometimes, enough to rock the boat. Some of us tigers need to be shoved back in our cages sometimes. The cats need to overcome their urge to bother the mice.
And everyone's got to take a deep breath when the "boars" start up, talking endlessly about the proper wrist-to-handle ratio hiking- pole grasp...

We just need to respect one another's opinions, and not be jerks. We're all in this together. At least we have this little "Ivar's Ark" to share!

 

[linkster]

I have noticed what you highlight.
Edit: I forgot to say that recently, when I see some certain user(s)s posting, I thread more carefully, reluctant to participate.

THREAD LIGHTLY! I love it.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

There is a reason why we have been equipped with 2 eyes and ears, and only one mouth: Think before you speak. It would do many people good to lean back and reflect before speaking (writing).

I resemble that remark!

 

[hel&scott]

It's important to remember that this forum is kinda like Noah's Ark: we are all colors and shapes, sizes and species, drawn here from all over the world and hopefully moving forward toward a shared destination. Some of us elephants like throwing our weight around sometimes, enough to rock the boat. Some of us tigers need to be shoved back in our cages sometimes. The cats need to overcome their urge to bother the mice.
And everyone's got to take a deep breath when the "boars" start up, talking endlessly about the proper wrist-to-handle ratio hiking- pole grasp...

A very thoughtful and appropriate post, somehow I picture you as an old Alburge cat, one that had an exotic life before settling down on a warm window ledge to keep an eye on the field mice trudging by. You're still young and spry enough to leap into action when you want, but you are trying to be zen instead.

And in defence of boars, my Berkshire boys are real gents they ramble around the orchard and live high on the hog. They will come over to check you out as you pass and give you a head nod and a low grumble of recognition, they are not much for conversation but love an ear scratch and will flop at your feet for a belly rub. But it's important to note their sharp tusks and treat them with respect. So when I see the kind of conversation you talk about start up on the forum, I regard this more of a case of human behaviour, my boars would just ample off in search of other nuts to crack.

 

[WGroleau]

I must say I've noticed an uptick in people appearing here and in other online places, demanding instant information, telling everyone right off the bat "I don't want to hear any discussion or options -- just direct answers!" Which shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what "FORUM" means, not to mention a lack of good manners.

Well, we might admit that many of us, myself included, can chat on and on and on about something. No doubt people with less patience sometimes feel like yelling "get to the point!" (Maybe this post is an example!)

 

[scott the farmer]

We are guests on this forum just like we are guests in Spain when we walk
That requires us to respect and care for each other like we do on the Camino
Simple really

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I love this forum and after reading Laurie's post it had me wondering....could some of the increase in negativity that is noticed by long time forum members be a result of the increase of pilgrims on the Caminos and hence on this forum over the past several years. I'm totally estimating, but say ten years ago there were 100,000 walkers per year and now there are over 200,000.That could possibly double the negativity seen here just from the pilgrim increase alone if the forum has doubled its members as well.

On the plus side, due to this growth, there may also be an increase of positive, helpful posts too. This is just speculation on my part and is not meant to take anything away from Laurie's reminder to be courteous to others when posting comments...just some food for thought.

 

[nycwalking]

Dear Everyone,

Here is my two cents. Just yesterday, I caught a fight mid-rant just before mod deleted angry posts then locked thread. Too bad, because I wanted to contribute. Now, speaking of contributions, I joined forum in 2008, only started reading and posting within last year or so.

Why? I was busy, walking, talking, working, then back on camino. Then life happened.

Currently, my plate is full, not with tapas, or pintxos and no vino tinto, just life.

So, I come here for wonderful camino doings. Who is walking and how and where. Who met whom or wishes to meet.... A break from my wonderful but... reality.

And, so on and so forth.

Yes, my life is quite complete without the forum. But, this site is like the Tarta de Santiago: not exactly needed but delectable nonetheless.

Ergo: let us all take heed to Laurie's post. Cuz, I am still a bit miffed I could not post my Guardia Civil encounter.

 

[Kanga]

@nycwalking you can always start a new thread - as long as it does not repeat the offending or controversial stuff! It is not usually the topic that is the problem, but the manner in which people express their opinions.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

I love being back on the forum. I had taken a hiatus for a bit when my ex and close friend (two different people) both passed last year. I didn't want to subject you all to my drama!

When I came back I did notice a new vibe on the forum, and to be honest, I didn't much like it. There was an attitude of one-upmanship that was showing up, and sure enough, some forum members with a vast degree of Camino knowledge seemed eager to immediately put others in their place. Some put-downs had to do with nationalities. I was not very comfortable with it all.

I think there's room here for those of us who want to walk Sanabres, Invierno, Norte', VDLP, Primitivo, etc.---and those of us who want to walk the Frances for the eleventh time.

It's not always important to have the most knowledge, nor is it important to have the last word. It is always important to let all members--even those with less experience and knowledge--speak their truth without immediately correcting them.

Other than that, I would say it's a good occasion for a Camino! I do believe I have one coming right up...

 

[Kanga]

Good to have you back @CaminoDebrita. And to have you on the Camino again.

 

[KinkyOne]

... It is always important to let all members--even those with less experience and knowledge--speak their truth without immediately correcting them....

While I do agree with the first part of your (copied above) statement completely I can't for the second part of it. Why would I let some post that is truly misleading hang in some topic without a reply??? I mean when I (think to) have the right answer because I was there, walking it, took GPS tracks etc.?

Maybe it's sometimes seen as "undermining" somebody else's comment but it really isn't. It's just getting things straight. I remember not too far ago I was accused to make comments on particular route based only on Google maps. Well, I walked that route and the Google maps link I provided just proved that I was right and the other poster wasn't. Both (all ours) posts was removed by mods and as a consequence future pilgrims were left without the information. Is that really helpful? Oh, yes, I immediately corrected the previous post @CaminoDebrita

In general what I wanted to say even before your post was that sometimes getting things straight (facts) isn't really some kind of quarreling or fighting. For me personally that's a bonus of this forum.

Wish you all a nice day

 

[CaminoDebrita]

While I do agree with the first part of your (copied above) statement completely I can't for the second part of it. Why would I let some post that is truly misleading hang in some topic without a reply??? I mean when I (think to) have the right answer because I was there, walking it, took GPS tracks etc.?

Maybe it's sometimes seen as "undermining" somebody else's comment but it really isn't. It's just getting things straight. I remember not too far ago I was accused to make comments on particular route based only on Google maps. Well, I walked that route and the Google maps link I provided just proved that I was right and the other poster wasn't. Both (all ours) posts was removed by mods and as a consequence future pilgrims were left without the information. Is that really helpful? Oh, yes, I immediately corrected the previous post @CaminoDebrita

In general what I wanted to say even before your post was that sometimes getting things straight (facts) isn't really some kind of quarreling or fighting. For me personally that's a bonus of this forum.

Wish you all a nice day

Thanks for all of your good information. I always enjoy reading all of the posts of those of you who have walked so many different ways.

 

[peregrina2000]

While I do agree with the first part of your (copied above) statement completely I can't for the second part of it. Why would I let some post that is truly misleading hang in some topic without a reply??? I mean when I (think to) have the right answer because I was there, walking it, took GPS tracks etc.?

Maybe it's sometimes seen as "undermining" somebody else's comment but it really isn't. It's just getting things straight. I remember not too far ago I was accused to make comments on particular route based only on Google maps. Well, I walked that route and the Google maps link I provided just proved that I was right and the other poster wasn't. Both (all ours) posts was removed by mods and as a consequence future pilgrims were left without the information. Is that really helpful? Oh, yes, I immediately corrected the previous post @CaminoDebrita

In general what I wanted to say even before your post was that sometimes getting things straight (facts) isn't really some kind of quarreling or fighting. For me personally that's a bonus of this forum.

Wish you all a nice day

So, here's the thing, Kinky. You and I have had NUMEROUS disagreements on the forum about many particulars -- Levante, Sanabres, Invierno, etc. But we have never gotten nasty or snarky with each other. We were talking about facts, not opinions, not feelings. We went back and forth about the exit from Lalin or the way in or out of Puente Domingo Florez until we found the right answer. But what Deb is talking about, I think, are things that don't have right answers. For instance, you and I don't argue about whether it is "better" to sleep in Bendueños or in Pajares, that's an opinion, we each have our own. If you say Bendueños and I say Pajares, I don't need to go on and on and on to show that I am right and you are wrong.

Keep peace alive! Buen camino, Laurie

PS: And if I have ever deleted a post of yours that showed that you were right and I was wrong, consider this a heartfelt apology.

 

[Kanga]

@KinkyOne - it is pretty universal that people don't like to be criticised or corrected. Me included!

We have to find gentle ways that do not make people feel bad.

What is polite and acceptable, and what is not, varies greatly from group to group, from culture to culture. Every group of people with a shared history has unwritten rules of behaviour.

When it is important, we have to stand up and take the consequences. But on a forum like this, what is there that cannot be said politely?

I know your intentions are good, and we want to keep your very valuable contributions - as @peregrina2000 suggests, where would we be without all that knowledge?

No-one should be offended if occasionally we pull them into line because of the way something is expressed. It is our job.

 

[Deleted member 56069]

The written word is not always as clear as we would like. It seems speaking to one another is on the decline in society, and more of how we communicate is by email and text messages. Obviously a forum like Ivar's or any forum lives and breathes by the written word.

Over the years of my business life I saw a huge swing from picking up the phone and simply calling someone, to email virtually taking over and most definitely not always for the better. We all know how quickly correspondence by email can go off track! We think we have been 100% clear, yet some times it is interpreted completely differently from our intention. This easily happens on forums as well. It is easy to read something in someone's post that the originator had not intended or foresaw.

In any case peregina2000's thread is a good reminder to write clearly, keep the negative emotions out of it (as much as possible) and strive to be helpful at all times.
Failing that, I guess the old saying, if you don't have anything good (helpful) to say, probably best then not to say it at all.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Laurie, you got it right. I'm talking about the "difference that doesn't make a difference". For example, someone got really riled up one time when I expressed my opinion (*everyone has one, yep*) about a guest house.

By "immediately correcting", I mean that slam-dunk retort, expressed in discourteous and dismissive tone. That's what I meant. Of course, we can all get passionate about our interest, the Camino!

I've gotten warnings and had comments deleted because of my "passionate" opinion. I had to readjust a bit. I haven't gotten in trouble for awhile, but I also do a lot of thinking before I "post reply".

 

[VNwalking]

Not long after I started posting here, I started a thread about the wonderful sense of community I felt here with this:

Collectively, we seem to understand the value of kindness, just as on the actual road - and lift each other up. Wonderful. So touched by this small manifestation of community....

Sadly perhaps it seems to be fraying at the edges.

I wonder if the same kind of shift is happening 'out there,' on the actual camino. Of course, who knows?
But there seems sometimes to be less 'fellow-feeling.'
One example is that this year I fell coming out of Cizur Menor - in front and in full view of a group of walkers ('pilgrims') - and not one stopped or even asked if I was OK. I was. But what shook me up to the core was their total lack of concern. This is not the Camino I thought I knew.

I hope we can collectively remember that here (and on this planet) we are all pilgrims.

 

[William Garza]

The Facebook syndrome
Dr,Google for instant gratification and the art of conversation.
I moderate on a website..and there also has been an uptake of wild west ethos thtmat a person can say whatever,whenever and whoever because of entitlement..

I try to keep the cats herded,.but it will spiral out of control..here. The Genteel folks from earth seem to get along with some exceptions
The mods here do an excelent job of remembering cultural norms and habits...a good thing for a beautiful and vital world wide org,

Conversation and debate are nice with groundrules no?

 

[Kanga]

@VNwalking your story about falling at Cizur Menor does really shock me. Once past Sarria I've seen walkers behave the way they do in any city (i.e. ignoring the fallen) but at Cizur?

 

[VNwalking]

It shocked me too, @ Kanga.
To be clear, it was a bit above Cizur, not in town.
The morning wave out of Pamplona and Cizur hadn't yet completely thinned out, which made the lack of response either more or less understandable, depending on how you look at it.
But to have people 'rubbernecking' as they walked by, without pausing in their conversation? It was very strange.
Edit for clarity: It wasn't a thundering herd of rubberneckers, just one guy (who'd been right behind me) followed by 4 people walking together. All were young, and having a good time.

 

[Kanga]

The camino needs us. Obviously some good examples need to be set! First lesson of the camino - never walk past a fallen comrade.

 

[LTfit]

There is a Sufi saying:

“Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates:

At the first gate, ask yourself “Is is true?”

At the second gate ask, “Is it necessary?”

At the third gate ask, “Is it kind?”

Rumi

Great words of wisdom.

I am glad that this Forum exists and continue to be a member after seven years. I tend to read those threads which interest me and contribute where I believe I can be of assistance, the others I just ignore. Maybe that doesn't work for others but it does for me.

Thanks to all of you who have made thoughtful comments. It thread was apparently needed. As always food for thought.

 

[VNwalking]

“Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates:
At the first gate, ask yourself “Is is true?”
At the second gate ask, “Is it necessary?”
At the third gate ask, “Is it kind?”

A lovely dovetailing of spiritual traditions! Thank you for sharing this.
Buddhist guidelines for skillful speech only add one thing -
Is it at the right time?
(IOW, is the person able receive/hear the words. If what you want to says is true, useful and kind, but if you don't have the sense the other party is able to let whatever it is in...don't waste your breath. A good reflection before hitting 'Post Reply,' and an art in itself.)

 

[LTfit]

A lovely dovetailing of spiritual traditions! Thank you for sharing this.
Buddhist guidelines for skillful speech only add one thing -
Is it at the right time?
(IOW, is the person able receive/hear the words. If what you want to says is true, useful and kind, but if you don't have the sense the other party is able to let whatever it is in...don't waste your breath. A good reflection before hitting 'Post Reply,' and an art in itself.)

So true!

 

[domigee]

It shocked me too, @ Kanga.
To be clear, it was a bit above Cizur, not in town.
The morning wave out of Pamplona and Cizur hadn't yet completely thinned out, which made the lack of response either more or less understandable, depending on how you look at it.
But to have people 'rubbernecking' as they walked by, without pausing in their conversation? It was very strange.

I am really shocked too!
Compare it with this incident, in July 2012. On that long stretch after Carrión, I called a taxi for a fellow pilgrim who was ill. The taxi took quite a while in coming and she was sitting on the ground wrapped up in my sleeping bag. EVERY single pilgrim who passed by - and there were many - stopped and asked if we needed anything or offering water.... Every single one! (To the point it was almost embarrassing).
How upsetting if attitudes on the Camino have changed that much that quickly.

 

[WGroleau]

The Facebook syndrome
Dr,Google for instant gratification and the art of conversation.
I moderate on a website..and there also has been an uptake of wild west ethos thtmat a person can say whatever,whenever and whoever because of entitlement.

Perhaps the "one-upmanship" someone mentioned is a misinterpretation of trying to correct an error. I recently read a complaint on Facebook about someone "constantly responding with Snopes links" to his/her posts. They weren't talking about me, but I took notice because I often debunk misinformation (though I try to use better sources than Snopes). I try to never be snarky about it, but when something totally false (and sometimes dangerous) already has a thousand shares, I feel complicit if I don't try to prevent it becoming ten thousand. I don't know enough about the Camino to recognize errors here. Although I have noticed that the GPX tracks I downloaded from another site are EXTREMELY inaccurate though the site claims they have been "carefully edited" to correct GPS errors.
But, here I am running my mouth (fingers) online when I should be on trail....

 

[WGroleau]

There is a Sufi saying:
“Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates:
At the first gate, ask yourself “Is is true?”
At the second gate ask, “Is it necessary?”
At the third gate ask, “Is it kind?”

Or an internet saying:
"Don't assume malice when it could be stupidity"
To which I add:
"Don't assume stupidity when it could be ignorance¹ and
Don't assume ignorance when it could be misunderstanding."

¹Ignorance in its correct meaning of "not knowing"

 

[Tia Valeria]

From a fridge magnet
"I know you believe that you understand what you thought I said, but I am not sure if what you heard is not what I meant"

We need to take care what we write and also read carefully so as not to misunderstand the actual message before responding. Actual 'nastiness' has no place IMO.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Speaking for the camino inhabitants: It HAS been a very long, tough summer season. On my part of the Camino everyone's feeling pretty frazzled.

 

[Kanga]

Definitely time for a walk then. For all of us. Assuming it is not too, too hot.

 

[intrepidtraveler]

A lovely dovetailing of spiritual traditions! Thank you for sharing this.
Buddhist guidelines for skillful speech only add one thing -
Is it at the right time?
(IOW, is the person able receive/hear the words. If what you want to says is true, useful and kind, but if you don't have the sense the other party is able to let whatever it is in...don't waste your breath. A good reflection before hitting 'Post Reply,' and an art in itself.)

To this list I would like to add

- does it improve the silence?

 

[t2andreo]

Thank to all for your contributions this very insightful and appropriate thread. Thank you Laurie for starting it. Thank you to all who contributed, adding value.

I have often been on the receiving end of moderator edits, when I have danced too close to the flame. I have even been banned once and placed on "double-secret probation" once. While I do try to not be argumentative, simply replying to a snarky or inflammatory comment to something I wrote CAN be a challenge.

I found the Sufi / Buddhist guidelines posted above to be closest to what should occur. However, we are, none of us, perfect. Personally, like Da Vinci's "Vitruvian Man," I am very much a work in progress. Thought not a competitive or argumentative person my nature, truly I am not, I am sometimes goaded into going where I ought not go in some threads.

I will not place the blame on others. They know who they are. I note, with some wry amusement, that so far, none of them have posted on this thread. Go figure...

Poking at someone, or their opinions / statements is simply not mature. Try to let it slide... I try not to say anything in reply to someone else's posts unless what I add might be helpful.

That, is my bottom line. If it is not, in my view helpful to someone to offer something, I do not write it.

FWIW, Here is my transliteration / paraphrasing of Rumi, et. seq.

“Before you post, let your words pass through FIVE gates:

At the first gate, ask yourself “Is is true (to the best of your knowledge?)”
At the second gate ask, “Is it necessary?”
At the third gate ask, “Is it kind (or at least not unkind)?”
At the fourth gate ask, "Is it at the right time?"
At the fifth gate ask, "Is it helpful to someone?"

Seriously, I do hope this helps...

 

[alexwalker]

The origin of defeating gossip:

http://www.the-open-mind.com/socrates-the-test-of-three-1/

As so many sivilised thoughts and knowledge, it stems from Greece. And these thoughts were formed +2000 years ago. Time to shape up for some "pilgrims"...

 

[C clearly]

Perhaps the "one-upmanship" someone mentioned is a misinterpretation of trying to correct an error.

I introduced the word on this thread, and did not misinterpret in that way. In fact, here I am correcting you! But I am taking care to do it respectfully .

There is a big difference between simple correction of fact, and doing so with a display of arrogance or careless disregard for the other person. It is possible to correct errors without being insulting and annoying, but it takes a lot more time (as well as writing skill and self awareness) than dashing off a response with little thought.

I have often been on the receiving end of moderator edits, when I have danced too close to the flame.

I have to say that I admire you and other "interesting" members who apparently accept moderation and stay around to offer more advice and wisdom. It is easy to recognize that they are committed people who love the Camino and would probably be reasonable and engaging in person, but who don't always show the self-editing skills that would make them more effective as contributors.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

I agree with all of these sentiments. They are exactly what was expressed when Moderator William started a similar thread very recently - the result was more trouble making and more locked threads. Another one today in a thread about Hospitaleros - for heaven's sake.

Sweet words aren't working - it's time to ban the trouble makers I'm afraid.

 

[t2andreo]

I agree with Johnnie, I usually do. Also, thank you "C_Clearly" for your very kind and supportive words.

I am committed to giving back to the Camino community, writ large, as best I can. I admit to being flawed. In retirement, I find my day divided into two bits: when I am working on something Camino-related, and when I am not. Generally I put two to three hours daily into reading and commenting on the forum.

The exceptions are when I am actually on Camino, and when I am working for one month each summer at the Pilgrim Office. But, these outings only serve to better ground me and reaffirm my commitment.

However, most of the community who know me, and dozens do, also know that I have only the best intentions. That is why I close virtually every one of my posts with the tag line "I hope this helps." That is because that is my purpose.

When I have crossed the proverbial "line" it is usually because someone goaded me into it. I suppose it is my inherited Sicilian short-fuse... As I said in a previous post, I am very much a work in progress...God is not yet finished with me...

I calmly accept the charitable corrections, warnings, and even being banned, if I can see what I did to transgress. In my five plus years on the forum, I must say I am learning how to be more creative and less argumentative, whilst making the same point. To that extent, participating in the forum is like a automated class in how to write for a global audience.

But, I DO TRY to be helpful at all times.

 

[C clearly]

I am learning how to be more creative and less argumentative, whilst making the same point. To that extent, participating in the forum is like a automated class in how to write for a global audience.

Yes, well put, and I find the same is true for me.

 

[movinmaggie]

Or an internet saying:
"Don't assume malice when it could be stupidity"
To which I add:
"Don't assume stupidity when it could be ignorance¹ and
Don't assume ignorance when it could be misunderstanding."

¹Ignorance in its correct meaning of "not knowing"

One I also like....
'Where is the wisdom that has been lost to knowledge?
And where is the knowledge that has been lost to information'?

 

[Bumpa]

@VNwalking your story about falling at Cizur Menor does really shock me. Once past Sarria I've seen walkers behave the way they do in any city (i.e. ignoring the fallen) but at Cizur?

There have been psychological studies published which indicate that people, by themselves, witnessing an event tend to respond in a helpful manner. People in a group are much less likely to respond if no one else does. Whether this is herd mentality, a feeling that someone else will respond or a wish not to be different from the group is debatable. Obviously this change somewhat if the event is severe.

I did a nose plant somewhere beyond Sarria when I stepped on the end of a big branch and it flipped up and tangled up with my legs. Several people came to my assistance. This may have been affected by the fact that the back of my kilt may have flipped up a bit

One fellow,obviously an American baseball fan, said: " I don't care what the umpire said, I think you were safe" A reference to sliding into second base before being tagged out.

 

[William Garza]

This Rumi feller..I tell yah....
Kidding aside....I wonder if a common shared love for the Way doesnt contribute to having strong feelings toward and shaping conversations about it?

Everyones POV is shaped by the nature\nurture factor..cultural norms and emotional status.

What shaped my experiences often colors my opinion..but not final decision about something.
What a person traveling away from home for the very first time may experience will be overloading to all the senses.
Differing
From say our esteemed well traveled Mods and members.

We may be seeing all the same,but from different light and angle.

The Way....
We wont define the intangeble indefinite.

I feel sad for those who had traveled the "innocent" way..untainted and more pure than what it seems to be ...held to reverent(as I would) tones and hushed coversations..that vintage shared between intimates.
Vs
The vulgar tap of today .

I think this to will pass,as people either learn? Or continue blissfully on their way criticizing and commenting like a dog barking at shadows at nite..unsure whats there..but yelling nonetheless.

Be Blessed all here!

 

[JulieandPeter]

Another one : WAIT?
Why
Am
I
Talking
Also good for staff meetings.

Stating the obvious - the anonymity of the Internet can lower one's inhibitions (like having a little too much vino tinto ) when it comes to sharing one's opinions and being polite. Yesterday, I was reading a recipe online and in the comments section an argument had erupted over cauliflower - there were 50 angry opinions about cauliflower! Personally, I don't like it

However, I have found this forum to be mostly wonderful and very civil. Even when a thread degenerates into a silly and frivolous argument, the posters are usually still kind to each other which says a lot about this forum.

@VNwalking I'm sorry no one stopped to help you. It always surprises me how easy it is for people to ignore people in need of help, but it's shocking to me that it happened on the Camino.

EDIT @Bumpa Excellent point.

 

[VNwalking]

I just remembered this story of Gurdjieff:
"The well – known mystic G.I. Gurdjieff once led a spiritual community in France. Almost all of those living there got on well together but there was one old man who was just impossible. He was easily irritated, picked fights with everyone and refused to help clean up or do any chores. Finally, after many frustrating months of trying to stay with the group the old man decided to leave on his own and set off for Paris. The other community members were overjoyed. Not so Gurdjieff, who followed him and tried to convince him to return. The old man refused at first but finally agreed when Gudjieff offered him a very large monthly stipend. When Gurdjieff returned with the man in tow, everyone was aghast. And when they heard that the man was being paid, (at a time when they themselves were paying to live there), they were furious. They went to Gurdjieff en masse and demanded an explanation. Gurdjieff listened to their complaints , laughed and explained, ” This man is like yeast for bread. Without him living here, you would never really learn about anger, irritability, patience and compassion. That is why you pay me, and why I hire him.”"

So.
Here's an alternative take, which may not be so popular.
We can use the people who make trouble here to help us all learn to be more patient, compassionate, and skillful in our own speech - and never mind what they're doing. We can be amp up the negativity or nudge the conversation in another direction.
Just a reflection (encouraging myself, actually...). Because no matter what happens 'out there,' how we each respond is the only thing we can do anything about.

Which is not to say it's perfectly OK to be ill-mannered. It's not. But we can lift each ourselves and each other up, in spite of it. Because of it. The ill-mannered folks? They can be the means to that end.

 

[William Garza]

I never read Chaucer..a defect in my character i suppose

But i imagine that Talebof Santiago is being written right now
Its about the totality of human existence and condition on the way to Santiago de Compostela.
What makes us? Us...is right here,right now..
We argue fuss and fight..as has always been done i think since Santiago came home and someone built a house for him to dwell..and welcome the fractious,frantic,febril,faint,formost,least of,always been,first time,last time,searching,finding,losing,winning,at last!!!,is this all? Well..I made it,bout time,,I missed you so much,good riddance,what now,what next,where do I go from here? Looking at Santiago and asking..Take my Burdens..please...bent back,upright,i lost everything,i gained freedom,ime still burdened,doubting,firm,amazed,disappointed,peregrino,touregrino...I dont know what ime,doing here,where is everybody..ohh Lord, there,are so many,
I cant wait,ill never do this again,....

What happens next..Pilgrim.

Right now,today,Ivar opened up that immortal Tome..lay pen beside it and said
Well..lets see what happens.

I think we are all good People at heart.
Well meaning..not so wordy or flowery as this person....

This will pass, as all shadows pass from the Moon to light fully and completely the Way to Santiagos House.

The Pilgrims on the way do not care I think of manners of speach,or who is on first...I think that pilgrim is worried of blisters,where will I sleep tonite,whats that growl???? Man..i gotta poop and the next town is how far?
Man..the Pulpo was AWSOME!
That wine tho...
Man, this guy wont shut up......

I fully trust the Mods here,Ivar and the Seasoned takers of Journeys to guide the way..Light the way..best that they can and know that you can tell a fellow the 5 w's..and they will do it wrong anyway.

A Tail of Santiago....
I wonder what it will be like?

Be Blessed Pilgrims.

 

[Stivandrer]

From a fridge magnet
"I know you believe that you understand what you thought I said, but I am not sure if what you heard is not what I meant"

IMO.

well what!
come again...

- brilliant quote, it will go on my fridge too !
When my wife comes home, she will inquire what the deuce I mean by that ....?

 

[WGroleau]

I introduced the word on this thread, and did not misinterpret in that way.

What I meant was that someone trying to correct misinformation can easily seem to be showing off.

 

[KinkyOne]

What I meant was that someone trying to correct misinformation can easily seem to be showing off.

If helping others with correct information is seen as showing off then I will continue to show off with great enthusiasm

 

[C clearly]

What I meant was that someone trying to correct misinformation can easily seem to be showing off.

Yes, I understand that. It is why we need to be particularly careful in how our correction is made!

 

[VNwalking]

I've been chewing on this over the last day or so, thinking about both skillful speech and about thin skins.
So some further reflections, all of which I'm happy to own as opinion.

If speech is insensitive or blatantly insulting, that's definitely going over a line.
And...
Being thin-skinned and easily provoked into an argument isn't so useful, either.

So while we all need to be careful and sensitive to others in what we say here, too much censorship becomes a prison for the majority.

So if you have an opinion to express, or need to correct someone's factual mistake, it pays to be careful.
And if your feelings have been hurt and you want to lash out, it pays to pause before you fire off that retaliatory salvo. Even if you're in the right. Especially if you're in the right.

What others say is their business, and their karma. What I do with it is what's my business.
And negativity spreads like a virus, if we let it. Do we really want to send more of that out into the world?
I don't, and I bet you don't either.

 

[grayland]

This subject has been discussed very thoroughly by many members.

it was necessary to delete some posts due to content.

A reminder that open discussion of moderation is a violation of Rule 7 of the Forum Rules.
Please take your further discussion to Private Messages.

Please do not start a new thread concerning this...it will be deleted.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Let's get back to talking about Camino Stuff!