Help. Loved but hated it.

[Teddie]

"Get over it", "That's the way it is", "Live with it". Not the solution I seek.
Finished Camino Frances late November last, another same 2010, Norte 2011.
I was distressed daily with growth of graffiti. The presence of such vandalism. Yes, I would try to " get over it ". An hour later, there it is.
I want to do another, but after last complete, not again.

 

[cher99840]

There are other places to walk. The most well traveled is bound to be the most defiled.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I refuse to let the behavior of others ruin my day!

 

[trecile]

Let your eyes focus on the beauty, not the ugliness. Though, I have to say, that I find some of the graffiti very interesting, as it gives us a window into the thoughts and circumstances of some who live along the Camino. After all, the Camino doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is part of the ever changing culture of Spain.

 

[C clearly]

"Get over it", "That's the way it is", "Live with it". Not the solution I seek.

It is like many things in life that we do not like. We can react in 3 ways:

1. Get out there and change what we don't like.
2. Moan about it.
3. Get used to it.

All of us pick various combinations of the above, for different situations. At home, in our marriages, on the job, and on the Camino! Each of us has to find the balance that brings the most sanity and satisfaction to our lives.

Time to review the Serenity Prayer!

 

[MichaelB10398]

"Get over it", "That's the way it is", "Live with it". Not the solution I seek.
Finished Camino Frances late November last, another same 2010, Norte 2011.
I was distressed daily with growth of graffiti. The presence of such vandalism. Yes, I would try to " get over it ". An hour later, there it is.
I want to do another, but after last complete, not again.

I get it, but I have found that I can find beauty anywhere I am. One of my favorite cities is Cairo. Yet, when you talk to others you will find it is an immense city, filthy, disorganized, horrendous traffic, etc., etc., etc. Yet, for me I found great beauty in the people that live there, the culture, and their way of life. Because of the locals I fell in love and still love to be there when opportunities arise to take me there.

You are in control of your life. I refuse to submit to the vision of others, their desires to create ugliness or just their poor behavior.

Do what you want to do and focus on the great beauty that surrounds you.

 

[Kent Davis]

Nothing that others do is because of you - you cant take this personally or you become a victim and then your decisions are made by others.

 

[Kanga]

@tmorris117 I have sympathy with you. I do a regular seaside walk. Along one swathe of the path (on public land) the residents have poisoned a row of huge and beautiful old trees, so they can get a clear view of the sea. And every time I walk along I see new signs of them poisoning or cutting down any vegetation that pokes above a foot high. It is on the edge of a marine national park and needed to protect the foreshore. The local council has erected signs about tree vandalism but to prosecute they need to actually catch someone in the act, and that is virtually impossible. I've tried to ignore the destroyed trees and vegetation and to enjoy what is left (glorious beach, ocean and islands), and we've been active in trying to educate people, but I find myself dwelling on it constantly. My current solution is to avoid the area.

I also hate the graffiti along the various caminos. I can accept graffiti that is local, but pilgrims (especially foreigners) who think it is OK to deface the path? It is the ultimate expression of selfishness. We need a collective culture, where the needs of the community take precedence over the desires of the individual.

But I'm probably preaching to the converted on this forum!

 

[VNwalking]

"Get over it", "That's the way it is", "Live with it". Not the solution I seek

Hi, Teddy.
I know, I know. This is not the solution you seek.
But what to do?
It's impossible to change most of that happens 'out there,' but it's completely possible to change what happens in here. An old metaphor is better to cover your feet with leather than to try to cover the whole earth with it.
Over-focusing on the distressing things and not paying full attention to everything else because of that is certainly suffering.

That said. Well, we can empathize...your post has likely resulted in a lot of nodding heads. Graffiti? It's endless. All that--the graffiti, the litter, the crowds, the whole commercialization of the busy ways--we agree entirely. But it isn't something we can do much about. As @Kanga said, expressing distress about this is preaching to the converted. It's worth saying that while we might not be littering or writing graffiti (You're NOT, right, everyone?), we are, in fact, part of the crowd and part of the 'problem.'

But one thing we can do is pick up litter, individually or as part of Rebekah Scott's yearly Ditch Pig Jamboree on the meseta. Which is a whole lot better than nothing. And we can educate others if we see them messing up the way.

And if the distress is intense...well, there are many quieter ways to Santiago. Cher nailed it.

 

[Kitsambler]

Oh stop with the helplessness. Many American cities have developed quite effective anti-graffiti campaigns. And Kanga's besmirched seaside needs a webcam. Don't let the cretins take away from you that which you value. Your resistance is most effective as part of community action; one person alone can feel very helpless. But we are all together in feeling these losses. So we can act together to correct the situation.

 

[flewitheagles]

"Get over it", "That's the way it is", "Live with it". Not the solution I seek.
Finished Camino Frances late November last, another same 2010, Norte 2011.
I was distressed daily with growth of graffiti. The presence of such vandalism. Yes, I would try to " get over it ". An hour later, there it is.
I want to do another, but after last complete, not again.

Teddy,
I simply propose a visit to Portugal and, perhaps, the Interior route. While not devoid of graffiti, it is clean and much less traveled; perhaps, with the traffic comes the mess to some degree. I guess I can be fairly certain that I experienced some marking of the landscape, I don't really remember much at all... Obviously, your call.
Oh, and it (Interior) is quite taxing....

 

[Kanga]

Good idea @Kitsambler but the webcam would need to be effective for about four kilometres. And the damage is obviously done at night, so lights would have to be installed. I'm not sure that would be a great advantage in a natural environment!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The Camino is very old. It's looked a lot worse, I bet, with centuries of plagues, hovel-building, animal droppings, and filth crusted all around it. People these days try to "improve" it with pavement, "artworks," tree planting, litter pickups, etc., but there is no stopping self-absorbed and/or profit-seeking humans.

If graffiti bothers you so much, bring along supplies and remove it when you see it.
Otherwise, find another place to walk. Stupid people will be stupid there, too.

The Camino is not for everyone, for all kinds of reasons. Often it's too much. Sometimes it's not enough.

 

[Teddie]

Replies of understanding thought are what I had in hope of this forum.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I had in hope

Hope springs eternal in the human breast.

 

[MTtoCamino]

Very interesting responses. It takes very little effort for those to make marks on others environments. Very selfish indeed. Yet I believe it reflects youth, to clarify think on how in your early days the things you may have done to effect environment either visual or physical.

 

[VNwalking]

Stupid people will be stupid there, too.

Boy, isn't that the truth? There are stupid people everywhere. And sometimes I am the stupid one, or you, or we collectively. Maybe not in this case, but the bottom line is that no-one in this human realm is immune from idiocy.

Oh stop with the helplessness.

Reb said what I meant much more directly, @Kitsambler. There are things one can do something about (and then you're right--one definitely should), and things that are universal and unavoidable. Discerning the difference and acknowledging that are the keys to effective resistance and community action. That's not helplessness, it's realism.
(Not even considering the fact that in this case the vast majority of us are visitors to Spain, and so are unable to do whatever it would take to change this. )

 

[AbbyDee]

"Get over it", "That's the way it is", "Live with it". Not the solution I seek.
Finished Camino Frances late November last, another same 2010, Norte 2011.
I was distressed daily with growth of graffiti. The presence of such vandalism. Yes, I would try to " get over it ". An hour later, there it is.
I want to do another, but after last complete, not again.

One person's graffiti is some one else's art, and graffiti is nothing new. Each originates with someone who has a story and a reason for being there

 

[Micah26]

Graffiti can be disturbing especially in beautiful nature. But, graffiti is often a cry of one human gerst about an injustice... look at me and understand. Unless of course it's just a name and date which is like my dog marking territory! Maybe one can't touch graffiti in a foreign land but each person could pick up their trash and maybe a few more papers along the way?! Until then I try to think it gives voice to those who are silenced but that's me...

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

I wonder if the graffiti that disturbs the OP so much is made by pilgrims or by inhabitants. For me that would make a difference. If done by fellow pilgrims it would give me a feeling of "vicarious shame" (I looked this up in a dictionary, I hope the meaning is clear) If I saw someone doing this I hope I would have the nerve and alertness to interfere. If done by an inhabitant the situation is different. If the graffiti is as ugly and meaningless as much of the graffiti I see here in the Netherlands it would irritate me too, but much less,I would accept it as a given fact.

 

[Bradypus]

One person's graffiti is some one else's art, and graffiti is nothing new. Each originates with someone who has a story and a reason for being there

I find it difficult to sympathise with this type of justification. Does an individual's egocentric and narcissistic desire for self-expression really take precedence and entitle them to deface the environment through which they pass - either on private or public property? Walking the Camino Frances last year I found the frequent graffiti far more offensive than the omnipresent toilet paper and faeces. Unpleasant and unnecessary as they are they are the result of a basic, immediate and unavoidable human need. Those who feel the urge to express themselves can find other means to do so.

 

[poogeyejr]

Walk the Norte! The ocean views inspire constantly!

 

[MichelleElynHogan]

Over focusing on one negative, consider the positives, such as the welcoming people and the incredible compassion that is all around. Then there is the heart stopping beauty of the Land itself. Something positive has drawn you to do so many Caminos. Why have you walked so many?

I like what another has stated here, "Do not allow the behavior of others ruin your day." Further, when this is allowed, you are giving these people free rent in your mind to affect you, and control you. Is that really your wish?

 

[john07989]

"Get over it", "That's the way it is", "Live with it". Not the solution I seek.
Finished Camino Frances late November last, another same 2010, Norte 2011.
I was distressed daily with growth of graffiti. The presence of such vandalism. Yes, I would try to " get over it ". An hour later, there it is.
I want to do another, but after last complete, not again.

I think the Chinese have a saying 'If you can't change something, change your attitude to it'

 

[OLDBIKERIDER]

Let your eyes focus on the beauty, not the ugliness. Though, I have to say, that I find some of the graffiti very interesting, as it gives us a window into the thoughts and circumstances of some who live along the Camino. After all, the Camino doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is part of the ever changing culture of Spain.

Actually, I saw it as an input from those I love from all over the world. Frustration, comments reflecting joy, encouragement to keep going, as well as some local stuff. I integrated it into my Camino experience.

 

[C clearly]

I integrated it into my Camino experience.

What a great way to describe it! I think I will use this in the future.

 

[kelleymac]

Good idea @Kitsambler but the webcam would need to be effective for about four kilometres. And the damage is obviously done at night, so lights would have to be installed. I'm not sure that would be a great advantage in a natural environment!

I know some hunters that use cameras that can see in the dark.

 

[Elizabeth_B]

"Get over it", "That's the way it is", "Live with it". Not the solution I seek.
Finished Camino Frances late November last, another same 2010, Norte 2011.
I was distressed daily with growth of graffiti. The presence of such vandalism. Yes, I would try to " get over it ". An hour later, there it is.
I want to do another, but after last complete, not again.

Try any one or all of the Camino de Madrid, de Levante, Sanabres - very quiet, peaceful, as I recall un-graffitied.

 

[Awakekiwi]

If you look at some of the pics i posted here.. graffiti can be beautiful..
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...-inspiration-may-june-2016.45752/#post-484000
But also what really gets to me is all the tagging on every post.. i dont mind some words of encouragement or someone just writing how they feel, if it is somewhere that doesnt mess with the scenery, like an underpass or tunnel and so on.. what really bothers me is the constant "name and date" tagging and such like.. That really bugs me.. and its ok to be bugged.
There are many things in this world that bother me greatly, and I accept that. There are unspeakable things been done in this world.. I enjoy the art on the camino, and I can live with the tagging, even though it annoys me it wont stop me doing it again.. But I have an idea.. for an app which i will attempt to develop. Virtual tagging! where these social media obsessed people can take a photo geotagged and then write on it, and then only the people who have the app will see the "tag" on their camera screen when they reach that destination.. this also allows for unlimited virtual tagging at a location..
Lets not forget all the stone piles, crosses made of sticks on fences and so on.. there are many kinds of tagging, and some are quite beautiful.

 

[Colette Z]

It is like many things in life that we do not like. We can react in 3 ways:

1. Get out there and change what we don't like.
2. Moan about it.
3. Get used to it.

All of us pick various combinations of the above, for different situations. At home, in our marriages, on the job, and on the Camino! Each of us has to find the balance that brings the most sanity and satisfaction to our lives.

Time to review the Serenity Prayer!

Spot on and as a Friend of Bill W there isn't a day that goes by that I don't whisper the Serenity Prayer to myself a minimum 3+ times. It put everything into perspective. ❤

 

[nichollsb]

What a bummer that people are messing up the Camino. I did the Primitivo in October 2013, for the very reason it's not as busy or crowded (or at least, it wasn't then) as the Frances. As soon as I hit the Frances, I noticed an immediate difference: the crowds, the advertising and graffiti. (I must admit being amused by the graffiti on the slats of the bed above me in one albergue, where someone expressed quite colorfully how much they hated the Camino.) I'll be doing the Primitivo in April again, and I hope I don't encounter what you did. However, as soon as something gets popular, people tend to spoil it. It's why I gravitate to the roads less traveled.

 

[tpmchugh]

"Get over it", "That's the way it is", "Live with it". Not the solution I seek.
Finished Camino Frances late November last, another same 2010, Norte 2011.
I was distressed daily with growth of graffiti. The presence of such vandalism. Yes, I would try to " get over it ". An hour later, there it is.
I want to do another, but after last complete, not again.

Hate the graffiti. The authorities along the way go to the bother of erecting new clean markers and within days they are destroyed especially the 100k marker. Now I ask, who brings indelible markers on the camino. No-one I ever met so they must plan in advance to indulge in what I personally think is anti social. Then there are the ones who bring along a screwdriver or other heavy tool to remove the km markers. Out of curiosity I had a close look at them and an ordinary pocket knife would not do it. Of course, the authorities did expect it as the 100km marker is not a metal plaque, it is engraved into the stone so cant be removed. I swear, if I were to stand still for any length of time after Sarria, they would be writing on me and trying to remove my backpack patches. Rant over, it would not stop me doing another

 

[Mark Lee]

One person's graffiti is some one else's art, and graffiti is nothing new. Each originates with someone who has a story and a reason for being there

My first Camino Frances and what greeted me upon reaching the top of the Alto de Perdon:

Honestly I saw no "art" in it. Just defacing of someone's else's property by a moron with no respect or courtesy. I suppose their story is what an idiot they are and their reason for being there is to show everyone that.

 

[Missing Mike]

"Get over it", "That's the way it is", "Live with it". Not the solution I seek.
Finished Camino Frances late November last, another same 2010, Norte 2011.
I was distressed daily with growth of graffiti. The presence of such vandalism. Yes, I would try to " get over it ". An hour later, there it is.
I want to do another, but after last complete, not again.

Teddy--

I have learned this the hard with with my son's return to spirit.

1. It is what it is--any thoughts/judgment you put upon it (good, bad, right or wrong) will then create the emotions resulting from those judgments.
2. So how is all those judgments working for you?
3. Look at all the beauty and journey all around you and choose what you want to focus on. (I can remember being in a warm inviting hot tub and all I seemed to do was pick out the little things, like small leaves. Instead of just laying back and enjoying all the warmth, relaxation, I had surrounding me).
4. Bask in the joy that you have the opportunity to walk this beautiful journey; some never will. Take the good (judgement) and leave the rest behind for it does not serve you. If you can change it then do so

Time to review the Serenity Prayer. This prayer never made more sense then when we say it at the end of our suicide support group. My son choose to return his life to spirit. That was his choice.

With every day we each have choices every moment. How will you spend yours?

With Love My Dear Ones--
Buen Camino

 

[Oravasaari]

Grafitti did not bother me so much, I expected it in the underpass sections and some was quite artistic or interesting in a political way (Basque seperatist etc.) The tagging gets at bit monotonous especially when obviously done by a peregrino ("Julian 2016" - yes I am looking at you!). The distance plaques being promptly removed from all the bollards from 100km in to SdC is very odd (all the plaques were there from SdC to Finisterre). Theories? More theives walking the last 100km of the Frances?

 

[Mark Lee]

Grafitti did not bother me so much, I expected it in the underpass sections and some was quite artistic or interesting in a political way (Basque seperatist etc.) The tagging gets at bit monotonous especially when obviously done by a peregrino ("Julian 2016" - yes I am looking at you!). The distance plaques being promptly removed from all the bollards from 100km in to SdC is very odd (all the plaques were there from SdC to Finisterre). Theories? More theives walking the last 100km of the Frances?

ha ha...
Be great if Julian or one of his friends was reading that.
Also, I have this image of a bunch of thief/pilgrims showing off their stolen distance plaques at their home. Hanging up over their bar, or in their garage. Proud of their stolen property.

 

[AbbyDee]

My first Camino Frances and what greeted me upon reaching the top of the Alto de Perdon:
View attachment 32311
Honestly I saw no "art" in it. Just defacing of someone's else's property by a moron with no respect or courtesy. I suppose their story is what an idiot they are and their reason for being there is to show everyone that.

Indeed, you may not, and I don't feel a need for any "Kilroy was here" additions to the Camino, either. However, Pompeii, Herculaneum, the Roman Forum, and even in the Valley of the Kings are rife with the "graffiti" of the time. I don't know what the inhabitants of those places felt about it at the time, but archeologists find the racy depictions of Hatshepsut and her architect and possible lover Senenmut to be social commentary of the time. I have no doubt that others of the day found to be just as offensive as you do and yet it remains.

As someone said earlier, the Camino is very old; many have traveled its various routes, and many have left their marks, and most of them, given time, will wear away.

This not to say that your opinion is not valid, and you are certainly entitled to it. I just mean to point out other perspectives.

 

[Teddie]

Thanking all replies.
I fear, as I focus this thread on graffiti, future pilgrims may see the routes rife with vandalism, may veer from future plans. I would be devastated to learn so.
Having lead an active well travelled life. And asked.
What is the best trip you have experienced.
The Camino. And asked.
What trip I would repeat.
The Camino.

 

[VNwalking]

My first Camino Frances and what greeted me upon reaching the top of the Alto de Perdon:

Tagging like this is as old as humanity~

Pompeii, Herculaneum, the Roman Forum, and even in the Valley of the Kings are rife with the "graffiti" of the time.

Older even...dogs pee on fence posts and fire hydrants for the same reason.

One thing I would add is that we're all to quick to identify the actor and the action, but they're not the same.
Tagging doesn't make the taggers idiots any more than dogs are idiots--it's just regression into very old and ingrained habit of our species.

The activity is certainly dumb, and reprehensible.
But to judge the entire person based on one stupid act without any other information about them is not very smart, either. We all do it (me too)--there is something perversely pleasant about verbally spearing someone who does something we detest. But where it goes is not pretty. So why add to the hatred in the world--isn't there enough of that already?

If there's one thing that the Camino slowly teaches me it's tolerance and patience with the idiotic things people can do. So if it bugs you enough, take care of yourself and clean it up--but without illusions that the Camino will remain pristine after you come along. @Rebekah Scott and The Ditch Pigs clean up tons of trash every year. And they seem to have fun doing it. That is what it looks like to use the lessons of the Camino well.

Rant over (I'm talking to myself, by the way).
Bottom line is what you just said, Teddy:

Having lead an active well travelled life. And asked.
What is the best trip you have experienced.
The Camino. And asked.
What trip I would repeat.
The Camino.

A bit of human grit is unlikely to prevent people from coming. And if it does, maybe they're just not ready yet. No fear!

 

[Mark Lee]

Tagging like this is as old as humanity~

Older even...dogs pee on fence posts and fire hydrants for the same reason.

One thing I would add is that we're all to quick to identify the actor and the action, but they're not the same.
Tagging doesn't make the taggers idiots any more than dogs are idiots--it's just regression into very old and ingrained habit of our species.

The activity is certainly dumb, and reprehensible.
But to judge the entire person based on one stupid act without any other information about them is not very smart, either. We all do it (me too)--there is something perversely pleasant about verbally spearing someone who does something we detest. But where it goes is not pretty. So why add to the hatred in the world--isn't there enough of that already?

If there's one thing that the Camino slowly teaches me it's tolerance and patience with the idiotic things people can do. So if it bugs you enough, take care of yourself and clean it up--but without illusions that the Camino will remain pristine after you come along. @Rebekah Scott and The Ditch Pigs clean up tons of trash every year. And they seem to have fun doing it. That is what it looks like to use the lessons of the Camino well.

Rant over (I'm talking to myself, by the way).
Bottom line is what you just said, Teddy:

A bit of human grit is unlikely to prevent people from coming. And if it does, maybe they're just not ready yet. No fear!

Nah.....it really is stupid, and the taggers are idiots, and sorry, can't compare it to prehistoric cave art in France. No hate in that opinion, just the old shaking of the head in disgust at the activity.
Besides, it's illegal and that's the deal breaker. It's illegal to deface or damage someone else's or public property.

 

[VNwalking]

No hate in that opinion, just the old shaking of the head in disgust at the activity.

What I meant, Mark. Exactly. The activity is disgusting. And you're preaching to the choir--I agree entirely with what you say about defacing others property.
The intention behind what I said was just to separate that activity from the people who do it--they are vastly more complex.
(And I wasn't thinking cave paintings. That's art. I was thinking scent marking fence posts.)