Hemingway and Spanish Culture

[scruffy1]

A thread now closed went from bad to worse with no hope for better. Will try to slip this in the back door, Hemingway wrote a marvelous nonfiction account entitled "Death in the Afternoon" exploring all things connected to the bullfight in a most enlightening fashion. An absolute must read in order to understand many things Spanish. The bull is so common in Ancient Mediterranean culture, mythology, and cult, the animal's appearance and continuation in Spain should come as no surprise, a quick list: the Minoan Crete people were great seafarers and certainly knew of Hispania offered the bull leap fresco the bull rhyton as well as the Minotaur; the Greeks were also in Spain so do remember Europa and the bull; Roman sculptures of sacrificial animals always included the bull; much later we find Goya and Tauromachia; and do not forget the Osborne Bull advertising statue all over Spain today. Bulls are Spain is interlocked with that animal for good and for bad.

 

[Wanderer64]

Our reactions to rituals, symbols and cultural happenings in foreign nations is often knee-jerk ethnocentrism. I have no true comprehension of what it's like to be raised in a Spanish village that has a variety of traditions and rituals that are alien to me. Hence, I try to check my judgements when it comes to these things I don't understand.

I'm not suggesting ethical-cultural relativism. I do believe in universal wrongs and rights, especially when it comes to human beings. I just don't think bull rituals in Spain fall into that category, in my humble opinion. Issues like these are for the Spanish to debate and resolve, not for foreigners like me.

 

[scruffy1]

Foreigners like us! Human life in Spain has always been inconsequential, read their literature Rosalía de Castro quickly comes to mind, art Goya, El Greco, Spanish history from before the Expulsion in 1492, the Inquisition, the Conquest of Central and South America, a playground for England and France in the Napoleon Wars, the Spanish Civil War, the Franco years. I must truly sympathize with the bulls, but human life on the Iberian Peninsula has been much more tragic.

 

[Tincatinker]

When my great grandfather fell from the scaffolding during the construction of the King George V Graving Dock in Southampton the company had the decency to provide a cart to take him home. They stopped his pay at 3:30pm: the time he fell. It isn't just Spain where human life is inconsequential. Nor have the Spanish cornered the market in inappropriate treatment of animals.

I suspect this thread will be another candidate for an early lockdown. Sadly in this topic there is too much room for acrimony and too little for exchange of opinion, experience and understanding. This forum was established as a place for pilgrims, past and future, of the road to Santiago to meet and communicate. The focus should be on the Camino.

 

[Pelegrin]

A thread now closed went from bad to worse with no hope for better. Will try to slip this in the back door, Hemingway wrote a marvelous nonfiction account entitled "Death in the Afternoon" exploring all things connected to the bullfight in a most enlightening fashion. An absolute must read in order to understand many things Spanish. The bull is so common in Ancient Mediterranean culture, mythology, and cult, the animal's appearance and continuation in Spain should come as no surprise, a quick list: the Minoan Crete people were great seafarers and certainly knew of Hispania offered the bull leap fresco the bull rhyton as well as the Minotaur; the Greeks were also in Spain so do remember Europa and the bull; Roman sculptures of sacrificial animals always included the bull; much later we find Goya and Tauromachia; and do not forget the Osborne Bull advertising statue all over Spain today. Bulls are Spain is interlocked with that animal for good and for bad.

Yes, Scruffy that´s exactly the point. The cult for bulls was introduced in the peninsula by the Iberians a mediterranean people. The Iberians also occupied the South East of France where there are two famous rings Narbone and Arles.
The Iberians also culturaly influenced celtic people in Castille ( Celtiberians) and Basques who so that have also bullfight tradition. But Galicia and Asturias remained completely out of the Iberian influence, so that the bull is not a mythic animal for them, and most people are indifferent to bull shows (encierros, corridas,etc) I don´t know the situation with the forçado shows in Portugal but I would bet that the tradition is much more strong in the south than in the north for the same reason: Iberians/No Iberians.

So, in Spain and Portugal the closer to Galicia the less bullfight and other bullshows tradition.

 

[scruffy1]

Tincatanker, very true! However, the Camino is Spanish culture no less than bullfights or the Museo del Prado and San Lorenzo de El Escorial in Madrid or the Alhambra in Grenada, they are all connected, historically, spiritually, and culturally. Far too many Anglo-Saxons and other English speakers have never heard of Richard Ford, of Virginia Woolf and Gerald Brenan, have relegated Hemingway to the Post-Modern dustbin, I truly feel that the Camino is at risk in becoming a been there done that Disneyland composed mostly of pretty lights, nice music, and SMS text messages with little understanding of all that surrounds. There is never too much to learn, to comprehend, and to project, knowledge is not only power it is a comfort and refugio when the modern world confounds.

 

[Tincatinker]

@scruffy1. I hold in my heart the hope that we will meet on the Way one day. We can argue Hemingway and Laurie Lee; test George Borrow against Gerald Brennan and if we are brave enough venture into Cervantes and Almodovar.
Do not despair for the Camino; it is far too late for that (weak joke). There will be those for whom the Camino is but a moment, a butterfly or a bar crawl. That does not change the Camino, the Camino will always be itself. And those who pass along it will be pilgrims or fools from their own choices.

When we walk through Spain we walk through a country with its own strong culture and traditions but the road, the Way, the Camino has a culture of its own. And it will survive the current pretty perturbations

 

[naplesdon]

Hemingway only chronicled what he saw. He obviously loved his life as an expat during those rebellious times and must have been one of Franco's least favorite newspaper reporter and short story writers. There are annual running of the bulls and bull rings in Dax and Bayonne, it is not limited to Spain.

 

[alexwalker]

I do not think any foreigners are in a position to judge Spanish culture, including bull importance. I was the one starting the now locked thread; I did not start it to provoke, I just found it curious. And as someone said: bulls have an ancient meaning in the Mediterranian countries, and we are not to judge. We are just guests in the land. Myself, I come from a country that has been hunting whales, seals, polar bears etc. for centuries; it is in our culture and part of our survival as a (then) very poor country.

Many people today do not understand or know how they get their food on their plates.

But I can also agree: Maybe I was off-topic when posting the start of that locked thread; if so, I apologize, and I agree that we should concentrate on the Camino. I just found it strange. But; when in Rome, do as the Romans (or at least respect them). And discuss with respect and calmness.

 

[scruffy1]

Very true again Tincatinker, the Camino is certainly stronger than fashion or whim. My own copy of "The Bible in Spain" is the 50th aniversary volume from 1890 something, a treasure. There is also a modern "In the Footsteps of George Barrow in Spain and Portugal" by somebody Arnold, don't bother. So much to read and so little time...I would certainly enjoy a chinwag on the Camino or almost anywhere else as well!

 

[William Marques]

As long as people stick to the topic and do not attack each other personally the topic is a valid one for discussion.

 

[MichaelSG]

As long as people stick to the topic and do not attack each other personally the topic is a valid one for discussion.

I'm happier without the bull discussions but I'm also happy just to skip over all the bull (discussions) and let others have a chat. As I noted in the other thread though, it usually does follow a pretty common trail to eventual lockdown. I'm curious though, when did that other thread get personal? Did I miss some posts that were deleted?

 

[William Marques]

Perhaps discussion on this topic would last longer and be more productive if done as a Social Group so I have started one:

"Spanish traditional culture including fiestas and bulls"

"I have started this group so that discussion of bullfighting and other local traditions can take place without those with strong feelings coming across them unexpectedly."

I propose that all such discussions take place there and any posted elsewhere will be moved there by the moderators.

 

[lettinggo]

Some years ago I came across a text which stated that the one thing that many times is overseen about bulls in Spain, is that there used to be wild bulls roaming around.
A fierce and wild bull was probably the most life threatening animal around and thus became synonymous with power, danger and uncontrollable.
This, according to the text, resulted in bull fighting and the human need to control and master its surroundings.
Whether this is true or not, it makes good sense to me, that it could be a beginning and explain how the tradition developed.

 

[scruffy1]

Read "D

Some years ago I came across a text which stated that the one thing that many times is overseen about bulls in Spain, is that there used to be wild bulls roaming around.
A fierce and wild bull was probably the most life threatening animal around and thus became synonymous with power, danger and uncontrollable.
This, according to the text, resulted in bull fighting and the human need to control and master its surroundings.
Whether this is true or not, it makes good sense to me, that it could be a beginning and explain how the tradition developed.

Read "Death in the Afternoon"!

 

[saltwaterpearl]

I do not think any foreigners are in a position to judge Spanish culture, including bull importance. I was the one starting the now locked thread; I did not start it to provoke, I just found it curious. And as someone said: bulls have an ancient meaning in the Mediterranian countries, and we are not to judge. We are just guests in the land.
.....
But I can also agree: Maybe I was off-topic when posting the start of that locked thread; if so, I apologize, and I agree that we should concentrate on the Camino. I just found it strange. But; when in Rome, do as the Romans (or at least respect them). And discuss with respect and calmness.

(Note: When we walk the Camino, we are spending an extended amount of time immersed in Spanish culture and daily life. I think this topic is very relevant to our experiences as peregrinos, and would disagree strongly with this conversation being shut down or moved.)

I have to disagree that we, as foreigners are in no position to judge (I would say, criticize) Spain.... or any other culture.

We can appreciate the art, architecture, history, cuisine, etc of another culture. We can enjoy travel, and thrive on meeting people from around the globe and experiencing their ways of life. But I would caution against romanticizing any other culture, including Spain, a la Hemingway. Romanticizing often equates to handing that "other" culture a free pass.

First and foremost, we are human beings. Being human trumps national, ethnic, cultural (generally manmade) boundaries. And I believe "respect" (defined incorrectly as "silence" all too often) for any other culture ends when cultural or traditional practices inflict unnecessary suffering or cruelty on other living beings, human and animal alike.

I can be interested in, and respectful of, the bull's history and cultural significance in Spain. But I do not need to be "respectful" of - indeed, I feel it is a moral imperative to not be silent about - the enshrinement of cruel practices rationalized (and rendered untouchable) as "tradition".

Acts of cruelty and injustice, and the violation of basic human rights and animal welfare, are not sacrosanct, untouchable, or exempt from criticism merely because they are tradition or are occurring in another culture.

Over tens of thousands of years, we have evolved. Not just our physical bodies, but our societies, our knowledge, our understanding, our laws, our compassion, our culture and traditions. Things change. Thank goodness, things change. I would not want to live with some of the "old ways" - traditions - of my culture, or others. Cultures evolve; tradition is not sacred or inscribed in stone or worthy of being romanticized or rationalized. It is a living, breathing, changing thing.

First, I am human.

I am not a "guest" in Spain. Spanish people - people from all over the globe - are my brothers and sisters. And the intentionally inflicted suffering of an animal in a Spanish village breaks my heart just the same as it happening in my Texas neighborhood - and my voice in defense of both is valid.

Myself, I come from a country that has been hunting whales, seals, polar bears etc. for centuries; it is in our culture and part of our survival as a (then) very poor country.

Many people today do not understand or know how they get their food on their plates.

While that may be true, it is wrong to equate eating animals for food/survival with torturing them for entertainment purposes. These are different topics.

And cultures that in the past had to rely on certain hunting practices for survival..... well, time has passed, societies have "modernized", and having a practice as part of one's cultural history is not automatic justification for its continuation in the 21st century.

(Certainly, there are still indigenous populations in the Arctic Circle that still rely on hunting certain species for survival..... but the majority of 2014 Norway can no longer claim that exception.)

 

[waveprof]

I do not think any foreigners are in a position to judge Spanish culture.

I think, usually, the only person that can ever understand ANY culture is an outsider who grows a deep and serious respect for the culture they are in. One can never be removed enough from one's own culture to understand it. And outsiders who reject it or never get to know it well, don't know enough to criticize.

As for bullfighting specifically I'll mostly stay out of it. I first sought a PhD in literature because I loved Hemingway. But now my relationship with Hemingway is very much one of love and hate. That duality for me is true in terms of his writing style, his romanticization of Spain and Euskal Herria, his treatment of gender, and his version of the philosophy of modernism. But I think there is something to be learned from that love/hate duality in life in general, and it applies to my relationship to bullfighting. I am at once disgusted by it and fascinated. I've attended bulllfights and feel great respect and disdain for the practice all at the same time

Great cultures are usually complex and fully of great contradictions. That is true of all of the Spains one walks through on the camino, but particularly the dominant Castillian one. Theirs is a complex and, often, divergent culture. One borne of positives and negatives. And I think that divergence and complexity is a good thing to embrace. The negative gives birth to the positive, and the positive gives birth to the negative. They couldn't exist without each other. The same is true of most great cultures.

 

[Mark Lee]

If bullfighting and other similar practices bothered me that much I would probably not visit Spain and spend my money there, and/or I would openly protest or otherwise show my disapproval of it. Like the old saying goes, "talk is cheap", and it really is.
Most of the travel and tourism websites, books, etc seem to include bullfights and the running with the bulls as something to see and do in Spain and apparently thousands of people travel there every year and include it in their itinerary. Obviously it ain't going away.
Why is there an interest in it? Quien Sabe? People are people.

 

[Wanderer64]

No culture is pure. All cultures contain at least some rituals, norms, mores, beliefs that outsiders find offensive. If I made my travel decisions with ethnocentric blinders on all the time, I'd likely never travel far beyond my own borders, and if I did, I'd be complaining all the time about the culture I was in and failing to be enriched by those differences.


FYI: Ivar recently amended forum rule #2 to include bull fight related topics:

2) No discussions on religion, bull fights, sports and politics. These topics "always" end in a fight, so let's not go there. It is true that the Camino and religion is closely related, so some leeway will be given.

 

[saltwaterpearl]

If bullfighting and other similar practices bothered me that much I would probably not visit Spain and spend my money there, and/or I would openly protest or otherwise show my disapproval of it. Like the old saying goes, "talk is cheap", and it really is.
Most of the travel and tourism websites, books, etc seem to include bullfights and the running with the bulls as something to see and do in Spain and apparently thousands of people travel there every year and include it in their itinerary. Obviously it ain't going away.
Why is there an interest in it? Quien Sabe? People are people.

There is no country on earth that is 100% free of culture, history, laws, traditions or practices that are cruel and/or unjust. My own country included. I do not visit or spend money in those countries where such practices dominate the current government and majority popular opinion/behavior.

Fortunately, the tide has turned against bull-related cruelties in Spain. Popular Spanish opinion - recent polls indicate above 70% - are disinterested in or actively opposed to bull-centric bloodsports. Attendance has plummeted, while protests and other opposition activities have increased. Catalonia recently banned bullfighting. My understanding of the current Spanish government is that it supports bullfighting, but prominent political opposition figures do not.

Bullfighting is still promoted by tour companies, sure - that is the romanticized version of Spain that they are selling to make a buck. But Spain has so much more to offer, and I think it is kind of insulting to the country and the Spanish people to push the idea that bullfighting is the only thing of interest that they have going for them.

I do spend my money accordingly too. In Spain, I would never spend money on bull-related sports. I would also avoid patronizing businesses that prominently display pro-bullfighting materials/opinions.

 

[Mark Lee]

Obviously there are many different opinions on the subject. I've never witnessed a bullfight in person, but I would definitely go see one given the opportunity.

 

[waveprof]

Obviously there are many different opinions on the subject. I've never witnessed a bullfight in person, but I would definitely go see one given the opportunity.

I will say this (and this is ALL I'll say on the debate). I would go see one before I had super definite opinions about it.

I'm far from a big supporter of bullfighting. And seeing one (twice) brought out simultaneous respect and disgust. But I do think its the kind of thing you need to see to form definite opinions about.

That said, there is a lot of good subject matter in this thread that we should focus on other than bullfighting directly (a direction in which will certainly lead to this thread being locked). Maybe we can stay more focused on ambivalent feelings with culture, complexity of culture, etc etc That seems in keeping with the mood of the OP, and might help us steer clear of political debate about bullfighting that will get us nowhere surely

 

[saltwaterpearl]

I will say this (and this is ALL I'll say on the debate). I would go see one before I had super definite opinions about it.

I'm far from a big supporter of bullfighting. And seeing one (twice) brought out simultaneous respect and disgust. But I do think its the kind of thing you need to see to form definite opinions about.

I disagree. There are other ways to become legitimately informed about something other than direct witness.

I've never witnessed a dog or cock fight. I've never witnessed a pack of boys tie cans to a cat's tail and set it on fire. I've never witnessed greyhounds being abused, neglected, killed or abandoned when they stop winning races. I've never witnessed farm animals being starved, beaten and overworked. I have witnessed the aftermath of all these things, and more. (I worked for an animal welfare agency) And I read, and see pictures, news stories and videos. I believe my opinions are grounded and informed.

I have, however, actually witnessed a bullfight. They used to be televised in Spain, and I made myself watch some in a Spanish hotel room. My opinion was negative before I watched one for myself, and I saw nothing positive to temper my opinion.

I don't think anyone would claim that one must directly witness human rights violations directly before they may form definite opinions. So I don't see how a different standard would apply in cases of animal welfare, abuse and cruelty?

 

[waveprof]

It's a shame. This thread had potential but it's clear that the new rule about discussing this topic is a good one. There really is only one direction it can lead....

 

[Mark Lee]

I don't think too many Spaniards are interested in my gringo opinions on bullfighting or anything for that matter. My gringo owned euros? I'm sure they are definitely interested in those.
I can only use Pamplona as an example of the importance if you will, of bullfighting in Spain. That city's most important and profitable event of every year is the festival of San Fermin. It's probably the best known event in all of Spain. Thousands (almost a million I think?) flock there and I would imagine a lot of businesses depend upon it every year, as does the local government (and the Spanish government as well). It must bring in tens of millions of euros every July. Of course the most popular event of the festival is the running of the bulls. Spanish fighting bulls (and steers to help guide them). All those bulls that participate in the running later fight in arena and of course die, and I think the meat is donated to charity? I could be wrong about that part. Anyway, what would the festival be without the bullfights? Without bullfights you have no bulls running and no bulls running equals less gringos flocking there every July to spend money on hotels, booze, food, souvenirs, trains, planes and automobiles etc. Less money spent there hurts the economy and the ability of a lot of working class people to put food on the table.
I'm not a Spaniard depending upon that activity every year to help feed my family. It's impossible for me to say it's good or bad when my ability to make a living doesn't depend on it.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Some years ago I came across a text which stated that the one thing that many times is overseen about bulls in Spain, is that there used to be wild bulls roaming around.
A fierce and wild bull was probably the most life threatening animal around and thus became synonymous with power, danger and uncontrollable.
This, according to the text, resulted in bull fighting and the human need to control and master its surroundings.
Whether this is true or not, it makes good sense to me, that it could be a beginning and explain how the tradition developed.

A good starting point - when attempting to dissect a subject starting at the origin is often best. Your statement about the wild bulls is spot on - having descended from the mega forna they were often 2.5 metres at the shoulder and were an animal not to be trifled with, hence the folk-lore that a man who survived an attack by these bulls was a man to be admired. Not sure about how the past now fits in with the current situation.

 

[saltwaterpearl]

I don't think too many Spaniards are interested in my gringo opinions on bullfighting or anything for that matter. My gringo owned euros? I'm sure they are definitely interested in those.

.....Anyway, what would the festival be without the bullfights? Without bullfights you have no bulls running and no bulls running equals less gringos flocking there every July to spend money on hotels, booze, food, souvenirs, trains, planes and automobiles etc. Less money spent there hurts the economy and the ability of a lot of working class people to put food on the table.
I'm not a Spaniard depending upon that activity every year to help feed my family. It's impossible for me to say it's good or bad when my ability to make a living doesn't depend on it.

This strikes me as a rather sad and cynical opinion of Spaniards..... and gringos for that matter. Regardless, the morality or ethics of a cultural/traditional practice should not be decided based on economic factors. I come from the American South, as I see you do as well. Surely there are some enduring lessons learned there.

Cruelty and injustice are just that, regardless of whether or not they make money.
Humans are a creative and adaptable species. We can figure out better ways to structure ourselves economically, other than with blood and suffering.

 

[Mark Lee]

This strikes me as a rather sad and cynical opinion of Spaniards..... and gringos for that matter. Regardless, the morality or ethics of a cultural/traditional practice should not be decided based on economic factors. I come from the American South, as I see you do as well. Surely there are some enduring lessons learned there.

Cruelty and injustice are just that, regardless of whether or not they make money.
Humans are a creative and adaptable species. We can figure out better ways to structure ourselves economically, other than with blood and suffering.

No, certainly was not meant to be a cynical opinion of anybody and certainly not of Spaniards and Spain, a country I have family roots in on my mother's side. It's just in my opinion that most Spaniards would probably be happy that I kept my opinions on their matters to myself and spent more time enjoying their country and spending my tourist dollars. Sad and cynical? No mam'n, I'm not sad and cynical.
Yes, I do come from the American south having lived most of my life in south Louisiana and south Texas. Don't know how that correlates with bullfights and the economy in Spain.
I worked for several years in Afghanistan. One of my positions there was with a poppy eradication team. Part of our job was to convince the Afghan farmers to grow other crops (pomegranates, broccoli, wheat etc) instead of poppy. Mind you, they made way, way more money per hectare growing the poppy, and they were not users of opiates, so they had no moral opinion if you will about it. All they knew is that they made more money growing poppy and could take care of their families better. Needless to say, we were not successful (look at the news) and I can understand why (I do not advocate illegal drug use and wish it didn't exist). At the end of the day, I was leaving Afghanistan. I didn't have to make a decision on which crop to grow to feed a large, extended family. They did.
Kind of strange using poppy production in Afghanistan as an analogy to bullfighting in Spain. Hope I did not offend anybody doing so.

 

[wayfarer]

I have to agree with William and say that this discussion would be better in a social group, that way people who were offended by the topic need not see it. I will further add that any personal comments directed at another poster will not be tolerated. Please thread lightly.

 

[grayland]

Please see "forum rule 2" quoted above.

I doubt any further discussion will produce useful information.

We are closed now.