How many Camino routes are there?

[Elizabeth C.]

I'm following up on an American Pilgrims on the Camino webinar I enjoyed a few weeks ago. John Brierley said in his presentation that there were hundreds? thousands? of established routes across Europe that could be considered Caminos. I'd like to pass along that statistic, but I don't immediately find it in my scan of the YouTube post of the event. Does anyone know where it is in the video? Even better, does someone know that statistic? Extra credit for the source! Thanks and Buen Camino.

 

[woody66]

Hi!

There are currently 281 Caminos listed, encompassing more than 51,500 miles of routes through 29 different countries.
(arts and culture Google)
Woody

 

[Elizabeth C.]

Thanks Woody! John Brierley had a much higher number, but I'll go with Google unless I can find Brierley's quote. Many thanks.

 

[Bradypus]

John Brierley said in his presentation that there were hundreds? thousands? of established routes across Europe that could be considered Caminos

The pilgrim office will give a Compostela to someone who walks a minimum of the final 100km to Santiago on one of a handful of recognised routes. Beyond those what constitutes "a Camino" is a very debatable issue. There is a growing network of walking paths across Europe - many of which are signposted as routes towards Santiago as well as being local walking trails. I've lost the original source of this image which I pinched for use in a presentation on the growth of interest in pilgrimage in recent years. This time last year I literally stumbled over a brass scallop shell set in a pavement marking a Camino route in Lithuania. My own view is that any route which takes you to the tomb of the apostle is a Camino.

 

[Kathar1na]

a much higher number, but I'll go with Google unless I can find Brierley's quote. Many thanks.

I got intrigued so I called up the video recording on YouTube and let it run through, with the sound turned off, with auto-generated English caption turned on, and at 2x the normal speed. This may be the spot you have been looking for: At around 45 minutes, J Breirley says, with great emphasis, that there are, and I quote, 78.000 officially waymarked Caminos to Santiago.

He does not say whether these are Caminos in Spain and Portugal or all over Europe or all over the world or what ... He does mention that he is a surveyor so it must be right ...

 

[Elizabeth C.]

Fantastic, thanks!

 

[trecile]

I wouldn't consider Brierley to be infallible - after all he called O Cebreiro O'Cebreiro in past editions (I'm not sure about current editions of his guidebook.)

 

[Bradypus]

wouldn't consider Brierley to be infallible - after all he called O Cebreiro O'Cebreiro in past editions

Maybe he's tipping his hat to his Irish heritage?

 

[dick bird]

I would argue that 'camino' being a Spanish word, if it isn't in Spain, it isn't a camino. According to a map I have that was published jointly by the Ministerio de Fomento and the Instituto Geografico Nacional, there are precisely 59 recognised caminos in Spain (and 9 caminhos in Portugal, helpfully shown on the same map). Some of these caminos are clearly variants of the same route, but that is still enough to keep most of us busy.

I'd be very interested to know how Mr Brierley defines a waymarked camino and whether he counted them all himself.

 

[trecile]

I would argue that 'camino' being a Spanish word, if it isn't in Spain, it isn't a camino.

"Camino" has become the generic word for a route to Santiago de Compostela. One could also say the Way of St James or Jakobsweg.

 

[Bradypus]

"Camino" has become the generic word for a route to Santiago de Compostela. One could also say the Way of St James or Jakobsweg.

Like @dick bird I would personally prefer to keep "Camino" and "Caminho" for naming pilgrim routes in the Iberian peninsula. And maybe Brazil. And other parts of South America.... But that ship has sailed and @trecile is right in pointing out that "Camino" is becoming a ubiquitous generic term for a pilgrimage route. As I mentioned above I tripped over this marker for the Camino Lituano in the street in Kaunas last year. 3000+km from Santiago.

 

[dick bird]

Like @dick bird I would personally prefer to keep "Camino" and "Caminho" for naming pilgrim routes in the Iberian peninsula. And maybe Brazil. And other parts of South America.... But that ship has sailed and @trecile is right in pointing out that "Camino" is becoming a ubiquitous generic term for a pilgrimage route. As I mentioned above I tripped over this marker for the Camino Lituano in the street in Kaunas last year. 3000+km from Santiago.

View attachment 138709

I should have known better. I didn't intend to open up a semantic rabbit hole (the worst kind). Suffice it to say, there are lots of ways to walk to Santiago de Compostela. Incidentally, about half the villages in southern England seem to have a 'Pilgrims Way'.

 

[t2andreo]

In Spanish, the word "caminar" is a verb that means "to walk." The term "camino" is a noun that means "the way" (a route or path, etc.). Nothing more - nothing less. A pilgrimage journey to a holy place is a pilgrimage, regardless of how it is accomplished, by who it is accomplished, or under whatever set of religious or spiritual pretext one espouses to.

This said, I grant that the term "Camino", especially amongst us here in the forum, has come to mean those routes ending at, directly related to, or connecting to the main Spanish or Portuguese Camino de Santiago - the Way of St. James - the several dozen primary, historic routes, used by all pilgrims to the relics of Sanitago (Saint James) at Santiago de Compostela. But, I allow that it could just as easily be construed to mean those routes connected to those established routes (mostly on the Iberian Peninsula) that lead directly to St. Jame's relics at Santiago de Compostela.

In that context, only a route terminating at Santiago de Compostela could reasonably be held to connote a Camino (BIG C). Of course, this is just MY thought on this.

Thus, and by way of one example, the La Puy camino, is but a historical French hiking route that leads directly to the actual Camino de Santiago, connecting at Saint Jean Pied de Port. Over time, the connecting route simply became known as the Le Puy camino route.

This opined, there are hundreds of adjacent or "feeder" hiking routes that accumulated over the centuries all over Europe and the rim of the Mediterranean in Asia Minor and Africa to eventually connect to the dozens of accepted, historic direct pilgrimage routes - the ways or Caminos - de Santiago.

I do not think this is as much a semantic discourse as much as it is the interpretation over the use of terminology over many centuroes and millenia.

In the end, and in my very humble opinion, is suggest that it is much ado about nothing. Every pilgrim knows the sacrifices, pains, challenges, tribulations and joys of any walking pilgrimage - anywhere in the world.

The Pilgrim Office knows that they are primarily concerned with which final 100 km route you walked into Santiago de Compostela - 200 if my bicycle - to qualify for the Compostela.

And, those of us here, veteran members of this erstwhile forum, simply encourage more people to do more pilgrimages on the many, many routes of the Camino de Santiago.

As I frequently tell people who ask me how many routes I have walked - four - and how many times I have walked a Camino - six - (fewer than planned due to COVID), there are many more direct to Santiago, Iberian formal Camino routes, alone, left to walk then I have years remaining on this earth.

So, in a way it is irrelevant. All I can do is hope, pray and plan - and God laughs. At least someone is enjoying all the angst.

Hope this helps the dialog.

Happy New Year to all!

Tom

 

[Thomas1962]

Have a look at the map at this page. It is not all camino's but quit a lot.
If on a pc, you can click on any route to see name and distance.

Looproutes in Europa - Santiago

www.santiago.nl

 

[Kathar1na]

For those who have not watched the video or the part of the video around 45 minutes into it, here is some context and transcript: Breirley mentions that people say to him that they don't want to Camino-walk again, it has become too busy. He points out that this is sad and he wants to flag a great misunderstanding, quote: There are 78.000 officially waymarked Caminos de Santiago. And if you want to walk through Sarria, you will walk with 200.000 other pilgrims every year. He goes on to say that, however, you can walk the Camino Invierno or start in Monteforte de Lemos and there will be significantly fewer pilgrims walking there. He wants to encourage people to walk other Caminos than the Camino Frances after they have walked the Frances, quote: Do one of the other Caminos. You spread your inner and outer glow and your finances around a larger body of routes.

From what I've heard from him on videos, he is mainly interested in Camino walking in Spain and mainly interested in inner transformation or consciousness building (I may be lacking the proper vocabulary here because while I have one of this guidebooks I have always skipped text about these ideas of his). He does not appear to have much interest in the history or patrimony that is still visibly present as testimony of the great European pilgrimages of the Middle Ages. I personally am very doubtful about the significance or meaningfulness of his 78.000 figure. Perhaps he got confused. This figure is in the range of the number of pilgrims walking on the Camino Frances before Sarria in recent years, or perhaps it is the sum of Camino kilometres added up over an unknown area (surely more than Spain and Portugal?).

Someone should just ask him directly to clarify what he had been meaning to say ...

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Here is the video @Kathar1na mentioned. I set it up to start at where Brierley mentions 78,000.

 

[Camineiro]

Brierley is wrong … as there are billions of caminos.
Wherever a pilgrim is heading towards Santiago that particular way will be a camino.

I guess Brierley and some other participants in this thread are talking of signposted or officially marked caminos.

 

[Elizabeth C.]

Thanks all, great comments. I've spent some time noodling around because I would like to know more about that 78,000 figure. Anyone have a contact for Brierley or his publisher?

 

[sillydoll]

Many places in Europe (with no pilgrimage history) had brotherhoods or confraternities devoted to Saint James (and numerous other saints). Some places, like Le Puy, which has always been a pilgrimage destination, evolved into a starting place for a pilgrimage to Compostela just 50-odd years ago. The 'Camino Le Puy' is now being made by walking.
In 1886, by complete chance, whilst authenticating manuscripts in the National Library in Paris, archivist Léopold Delisle spoted the name “Godeskalk” written in a prologue on a 10th century manuscript. The manuscript had been sent in a batch with others from Le Puy to a wealthy collector in Paris in 1681, thus saving it from possible destruction in Le Puy during the revolution. He wrote about his find in an academic journal in Le Puy but nobody took much interest in it.
The prologue, in Visigothic text, tells us that Bishop Godescalc, who had a special devotion to the Virgin Mary, knew that a valuable manuscript cited in the histories of Spain and Toledo from the 7th century titled De virginitate perpetua Mariae Virginis was in the library of a new monastery in Albelda near Logoroño and decided to obtain a copy for his parish. In 950, on his way to Compostela with a large retinue he detoured to Albelda where he compelled the monk Gomez to make a copy of the manuscript. (Gomez added the prologue with Godescalc’s name to the manuscript, telling us that the Bishop collected the manuscript in January 951 on his return to Le Puy.). Although this manuscript was copied at least a dozen times in Europe, until 1886 nothing was known about Godescalc’s pilgrimage. Even now, nobody knows when he left, the size of his retinue, or what route they took as there is there is no trace whatsoever of the Bishop’s journey amongst the documents in his church, nor any historic pilgrim diaries or accounts of pilgrimages made to Compostela.
The document remained incognito for another 54 years until Joseph-Marie Martin was appointed bishop of Le Puy in 1940. A Cannon of the church remembered the article by Léopold Delisle and showed it to Bishop Martin. In 1950 the Society of Friends of Saint-Jacques-de-Compostelle was founded with Mgr Martin listed as an Honorary Member, and in 1951 celebrations are held on 25th July in Santiago in honour of the millennium of Godescalc’s visit.
And so, in the 1970's the Camino from Le Puy was born, a route designed using hiking GR routes to lead pilgrims to the Pyrenees.

 

[Bradypus]

. Anyone have a contact for Brierley or his publisher?

There is a page on his Camino guide website for submitting feedback or queries: https://caminoguides.com/pages/questions-feedback

 

[Kathar1na]

... there are billions of caminos. Wherever a pilgrim is heading towards Santiago that particular way will be a camino.

I beg to differ a bit. We are often mixing up the past and the present in forum threads. Contemporary pilgrims want to walk a marked trail that has a name and a total distance expressed in kilometres. Just look at how this forum is structured! We are not content with just saying that we walked to Saint James in Galicia; we want to say, or want to know, on which Camino. Modern Caminos are actually specifically marked hiking trails - except that we are keen to avoid using the word hiking in a Camino context. Perhaps that is the reason why Camino has become a generic term, certainly in English. When did anyone last say that they walked on a Way of Saint James? In French and German, at least that is my impression, perhaps also in Dutch and Italian, it is still quite common to hear and write chemin de Saint Jacques and Jakobsweg instead of Camino.

So, specifically named and waymarked Caminos for contemporary pilgrims/walkers on foot are a fact.

In the past, that simply did not exist as such. I happened to have a look at the entry for jacquet in the French Wikipedia. Jacquet denotes a Saint James pilgrim, the word has no equivalent in English. The article also addresses misconceptions about naming routes and the wrong idea that there once were specific pan-European pilgrimage paths (translated from French):

Pilgrims have always used the same communication routes as other travellers such as merchants, craftsmen, clerics, men-at-arms, etc. The conditions of their journey were the same as those of these other travellers. They were subject to the same hazards. Depending on their financial possibilities, they used the existing means of transport (in particular the rivers) and the accommodation common to all those who travelled. The houses of God welcomed the poor, passers-by and pilgrims, and those who could afford it stayed at an inn. ​

Ergo, IMHO, named Caminos are a characteristic fact of our time, and their number is finite and most likely much lower than 78.000.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Anywhere there is a road you could walk from anywhere in Europe to get to Santiago is, to me, a Camino, so it would be impossible to count them up.

 

[trecile]

Brierley is wrong … as there are billions of caminos.
Wherever a pilgrim is heading towards Santiago that particular way will be a camino.

I guess Brierley and some other participants in this thread are talking of signposted or officially marked caminos.

Brierley specifically said

There are 78.000 officially waymarked Caminos de Santiago.

 

[David Tallan]

There are caminos and Caminos and Caminos.

I'm with t2andreo that a camino can be any path one can walk, especially to a Spanish speaker, and in the context of this forum a Camino is a Camino de Santiago, a path leading to Santiago de Compostela.

I'm also with Camineiro and Anniesantiago that there are a multitude of Caminos as our personal Caminos de Santiago can start anywhere. So anywhere can be on someone's Camino de Santiago.

But in addition to these personal Caminos de Santiago, in the context of this discussion, it might be worth distinguishing waymarked paths that are specifically associated with Santiago de Compostela and meant to be leading there. These waymarked Caminos de Santiago are considerably less numerous than the multitude of potential personal Camino routes (which, as mentioned can be anywhere) but likely more numerous than the official routes enumerated by the authorities in Galicia and the Cathedral of Santiago. They would include routes like the Camino Lituano in Kaunas that Bradypus found 3000+ km from Santiago.

 

[gns]

One for each pilgrim?

 

[dougfitz]

In that context, only a route terminating at Santiago de Compostela could reasonably be held to connote a Camino (BIG C). Of course, this is just MY thought on this.

I can see where your argument is going here, but I don't agree. This was a matter touched on in another thread recently when @JabbaPapa and I discussed semantic distinction between a Camino and the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela. Here is a link to that, noting there are several contributions to the discussion after that post.

As for whether only the routes that comprise the Pilgrimage to Santiago to Compostela might be exclusively termed Caminos, then I think we have gone well past the point where that is any any way a sustainable argument. There are two reasons for this.

• First, the routes themselves go by a number of names, and don't consistently use the word camino in their title.
• Second, there are now many routes to other significant places, mainly with clear Christian significance, that have used the word in their name. To suggest these are not Caminos in the sense of being a pilgrimage for those walking with a sense of spiritual enquiry doesn't seem realistic. The horse has bolted on this.

And, those of us here, veteran members of this erstwhile forum, simply encourage more people to do more pilgrimages on the many, many routes of the Camino de Santiago.

Two points.

• Yes there are many 'veteran members' who do focus just on the many routes to Santiago de Compostela, but there are many others who have ranged far more widely in their journeys, and who encourage and assist others who are contemplating undertaking pilgrimages on these routes.
• And the second is that I think it is too early to announce the demise of this forum. If anything, it has grown in stature and significance as a place where future pilgrims seek assistance from current, and perhaps erstwhile, pilgrims.

 

[VNwalking]

Someone should just ask him directly to clarify what he had been meaning to say ...

An obvious solution to the OP's question.

One for each pilgrim?

But I like this explanation best. (Though that would inflate even Mr. Brierley's high estimate. )

 

[Rita Flower]

The pilgrim office will give a Compostela to someone who walks a minimum of the final 100km to Santiago on one of a handful of recognised routes. Beyond those what constitutes "a Camino" is a very debatable issue. There is a growing network of walking paths across Europe - many of which are signposted as routes towards Santiago as well as being local walking trails. I've lost the original source of this image which I pinched for use in a presentation on the growth of interest in pilgrimage in recent years. This time last year I literally stumbled over a brass scallop shell set in a pavement marking a Camino route in Lithuania. My own view is that any route which takes you to the tomb of the apostle is a Camino.

View attachment 138701

In 2007 I purchased a post card that looked very similar to your image - I loved it.
Re numbers - This depends on definitions.
One definition says that one’s Camino begins the moment you step out of your front door. So that number is enormous.
Official Caminos is a very finite number.
Unofficial Caminos is a another number again.

 

[Trekker One]

So many routes, so little time. Should have got started at this before my mid fifties!

 

[Alan G]

Thus saith the Lord, "I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore, and as the Caminos which lead to Santiago..."

and elsewhere...

"And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs, on the road to Santiago."

(Please excuse my irreverent whimsy)

 

[Kathar1na]

As already mentioned, waymarking and naming Caminos as such or as Caminos to Santiago is a modern convention. I was googling for the origin of el Camino comienza en la puerta de su casa (it starts at your front door) and stumbled across two mildly interesting articles here and here. The saying, btw, is late 20th century and you can use it either in the figurative or in the literal sense.

There are basically two conflicting terminologies. One says that Camino, Camino de Santiago, and Camino Frances are synonymous. The terms denote a long-distance European itinerary which, on Spanish territory, crosses the western part of the Pyrenees. It is unique, it is a singularity. The other one says that the term Camino is applied to anything where there is an indication that a medieval pilgrim, or a pilgrim of a slightly later century, may have stumbled around and/or where you can find traces of a medieval hostel/albergue - which is more or less anywhere and everywhere.

Interestingly, during the first phase of the contemporary revival, the Camino Francés was apparently also called via Francigena which makes sense because Voie de Tours and via Turonensis also denote the same route, with one term taken from the current local language and the other one from Latin to make it look and sound more historical and ancient. But via Francigena is now used to denote a trail from England to Italy. No matter what, none of these terms denoted a long-distance trail in medieval documents. While you can find the odd document with these Latin path names in it, they always denote just a relatively short section somewhere where there is a property sold or donated, never a long-distance trail from or to somewhere far away.

So, basically, call it a Camino if you want to and count it as a Camino if you want to.

 

[dick bird]

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less.' Lewis Carroll, as if you didn't know.

And that's pretty well all one needs to know about semantics - believe me, I actually lectured in it once. Of course, you don't have to take my word (no pun intended) for it:

When I use a word... it means just what I choose it to mean – Tate Etc | Tate

TATE ETC issue 23: Sam Thorne on Alice in Wonderland in relation to the 2011 Tate Liverpool exhibition

www.tate.org.uk

I'm happy to accept either 'a pilgrimage route leading to Santiago' or 'a pilgrimage route to any Christian shrine'; even 'a long walk undertaken for vaguely spiritual purposes' but 78000? Give me a break. As I mentioned above, the Ministerio de Fomento recognises 59 in Spain (which is more than the Catholic Church does). That is an awful lot and more than any of us is ever likely to complete.

 

[Canche]

I'm following up on an American Pilgrims on the Camino webinar I enjoyed a few weeks ago. John Brierley said in his presentation that there were hundreds? thousands? of established routes across Europe that could be considered Caminos. I'd like to pass along that statistic, but I don't immediately find it in my scan of the YouTube post of the event. Does anyone know where it is in the video? Even better, does someone know that statistic? Extra credit for the source! Thanks and Buen Camino.

At the Pilgrim's Museam in Santiago 38 Caminos are listed as official.

 

[Canche]

I wouldn't consider Brierley to be infallible - after all he called O Cebreiro O'Cebreiro in past editions (I'm not sure about current editions of his guidebook.)
View attachment 138706

agree

 

[JabbaPapa]

I beg to differ a bit. We are often mixing up the past and the present in forum threads. Contemporary pilgrims want to walk a marked trail that has a name and a total distance expressed in kilometres.

Speak for yourself, but I generally don't, even though some parts of my Caminos do follow some portions of some more organised routes.

A common Spanish Camino proverb is that the Camino goes through every village, and along every pathway.

Billions might be a low estimate of potential Camino routes - - though of actual Camino routes, the literal answer to the question would be the same as the answer to "How many have been on pilgrimage to Santiago ?".

Those of us walking on these Ways of Saint James in an old-fashioned manner are not invalidated by the current (historically inaccurate) tendency to give special names and distinct identity to some recently waymarked hiking routes.

If it doesn't pass through or end in Santiago de Compostela, furthermore, then it isn't a Way of Saint James.

When did anyone last say that they walked on a Way of Saint James?

I say so routinely, and if I use Camino, then it's just as a convenient shorthand.

Specifically named and waymarked Caminos for contemporary pilgrims/walkers on foot are a fact.

In the past, that simply did not exist as such.

That isn't true, though the old waymarkers were very different to the modern ones.

The Tours, Vézelay, Arles, Le Puy, and Francès names for those particular routes are not modern in origin.

As to the waymarkers, there was a combination of old Roman road style ones, of white stones on church steeples, montjoies along certain routes, and so on.

I happened to have a look at the entry for jacquet in the French Wikipedia. Jacquet denotes a Saint James pilgrim, the word has no equivalent in English.

Jacquet is specific to French.

Historically, pilgrims to Rome were called "pilgrims", paradoxically those to Santiago "romeros", and those to Jerusalem "palmeros". And those are all from Latin, so meaningful in all Western European languages.

Possibly romero meant something like roamer, wanderer ?

But generally, that there is some modern fashion for naming, officialising, waymarking, touristifying, and so on is not sufficient to cancel all of the very numerous Camino Ways that exist outside of any such purposes of classification or normalisation.

 

[Bradypus]

Speak for yourself, but I generally don't, even though some parts of my Caminos do follow some portions of some more organised routes.

I decided to stop asking for a Compostela at the end of my Camino journeys when the pilgrim office decided that they would only be issued to those who walked an approved route. I've always believed that a pilgrimage is best defined by it's destination - not by the distance or route walked. I had no problem in disregarding the waymarked route through France on my journey to Rome. Until recently I believed that the waymarked routes were simply a convenience for pilgrims. It seems that they are now a constraint.

 

[dick bird]

Speak for yourself, but I generally don't, even though some parts of my Caminos do follow some portions of some more organised routes.

A common Spanish Camino proverb is that the Camino goes through every village, and along every pathway.

Billions might be a low estimate of potential Camino routes - - though of actual Camino routes, the literal answer to the question would be the same as the answer to "How many have been on pilgrimage to Santiago ?".

Those of us walking on these Ways of Saint James in an old-fashioned manner are not invalidated by the current (historically inaccurate) tendency to give special names and distinct identity to some recently waymarked hiking routes.

If it doesn't pass through or end in Santiago de Compostela, furthermore, then it isn't a Way of Saint James.

I say so routinely, and if I use Camino, then it's just as a convenient shorthand.

That isn't true, though the old waymarkers were very different to the modern ones.

The Tours, Vézelay, Arles, Le Puy, and Francès names for those particular routes are not modern in origin.

As to the waymarkers, there was a combination of old Roman road style ones, of white stones on church steeples, montjoies along certain routes, and so on.

Jacquet is specific to French.

Historically, pilgrims to Rome were called "pilgrims", paradoxically those to Santiago "romeros", and those to Jerusalem "palmeros". And those are all from Latin, so meaningful in all Western European languages.

Possibly romero meant something like roamer, wanderer ?

But generally, that there is some modern fashion for naming, officialising, waymarking, touristifying, and so on is not sufficient to cancel all of the very numerous Camino Ways that exist outside of any such purposes of classification or normalisation.

To be fair to Katar1na, I am pretty sure she was referring to the majority, and I think that is one category you would be happy to exclude yourself from. Not only that, the original question referred to 'established routes that could be considered caminos', so I think her answer to the original question is also fair. However, the original question opens up the debate on what exactly is meant by a camino, and it is a basic premise of linguistics that there are as many definitions of a word as there are users of it (which is the point Lewis Carroll was making in the Humpty Dumpty quote), so the notion that there are as many caminos as there are pilgrims is also valid.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I decided to stop asking for a Compostela at the end of my Camino journeys when the pilgrim office decided that they would only be issued to those who walked an approved route.

Er, no, just tell them you've been unable to fill in the online form, get a ticket from the doorman, and nobody at the desks will insist that you must have followed an "official" route, despite some unfortunate artefacts (bugs or bad design or both) in the online registration site.

 

[Kathar1na]

@Elizabeth C., did you write to John Brierley via the contact page on https://caminoguides.com/pages/questions-feedback to ask him directly? Because if you didn’t I will. I am such a curious cat …

 

[dick bird]

@Elizabeth C., did you write to John Brierley via the contact page on https://caminoguides.com/pages/questions-feedback to ask him directly? Because if you didn’t I will. I am such a curious cat …

I just have. But please don't let that be a reason to stop anyone else doing the same thing. I personally doubt whether there are even 78000 waymarks, let alone waymarked pilgrimage routes or caminos.

 

[Bradypus]

nobody at the desks will insist that you must have followed an "official" route, despite some unfortunate artefacts (bugs or bad design or both) in the online registration site.

That was exactly what happened the last time I asked for a Compostela. I had started my journey at San Andres de Teixido and I was told that was not a recognised starting point and that I had to walk the final 100km on a recognised route. As it happens I had joined the Camino Ingles at Neda - 102km from Santiago and therefore technically I qualified to receive a Compostela. But I believe that intention is an important part of pilgrimage. I had no idea at the time that this new rule had been introduced and it played no part in my decision to walk that section of the Ingles. I did not feel justified in accepting a Compostela for which I was qualified purely by chance.

 

[JabbaPapa]

That's why I frequently advise people to glue their credenciales together into one big one, so as to eliminate this sort of affair from someone's incompetence at the desk.

 

[JabbaPapa]

That was exactly what happened the last time I asked for a Compostela. I had started my journey at San Andres de Teixido and I was told that was not a recognised starting point and that I had to walk the final 100km on a recognised route. As it happens I had joined the Camino Ingles at Neda - 102km from Santiago and therefore technically I qualified to receive a Compostela. But I believe that intention is an important part of pilgrimage. I had no idea at the time that this new rule had been introduced and it played no part in my decision to walk that section of the Ingles. I did not feel justified in accepting a Compostela for which I was qualified purely by chance.

So pleasant to meet you in person @Bradypus and I think I have remembered the purpose behind the 100K continuously on a single Camino thing - - and it's not about enforcing certain "official" routes, but rather about preventing people who travel by bus or something from one route to another qualifying for a Compostela.

So in that vein, those switching on foot between say the Norte and the Inglés for crowd avoidance reasons would probably do well to get several sellos during the stretch between routes, more than just the 2/day, plus one at each end, to demonstrate walking not busing.

 

[Jaime Carrollo]

Many places in Europe (with no pilgrimage history) had brotherhoods or confraternities devoted to Saint James (and numerous other saints). Some places, like Le Puy, which has always been a pilgrimage destination, evolved into a starting place for a pilgrimage to Compostela just 50-odd years ago. The 'Camino Le Puy' is now being made by walking.
In 1886, by complete chance, whilst authenticating manuscripts in the National Library in Paris, archivist Léopold Delisle spoted the name “Godeskalk” written in a prologue on a 10th century manuscript. The manuscript had been sent in a batch with others from Le Puy to a wealthy collector in Paris in 1681, thus saving it from possible destruction in Le Puy during the revolution. He wrote about his find in an academic journal in Le Puy but nobody took much interest in it.
The prologue, in Visigothic text, tells us that Bishop Godescalc, who had a special devotion to the Virgin Mary, knew that a valuable manuscript cited in the histories of Spain and Toledo from the 7th century titled De virginitate perpetua Mariae Virginis was in the library of a new monastery in Albelda near Logoroño and decided to obtain a copy for his parish. In 950, on his way to Compostela with a large retinue he detoured to Albelda where he compelled the monk Gomez to make a copy of the manuscript. (Gomez added the prologue with Godescalc’s name to the manuscript, telling us that the Bishop collected the manuscript in January 951 on his return to Le Puy.). Although this manuscript was copied at least a dozen times in Europe, until 1886 nothing was known about Godescalc’s pilgrimage. Even now, nobody knows when he left, the size of his retinue, or what route they took as there is there is no trace whatsoever of the Bishop’s journey amongst the documents in his church, nor any historic pilgrim diaries or accounts of pilgrimages made to Compostela.
The document remained incognito for another 54 years until Joseph-Marie Martin was appointed bishop of Le Puy in 1940. A Cannon of the church remembered the article by Léopold Delisle and showed it to Bishop Martin. In 1950 the Society of Friends of Saint-Jacques-de-Compostelle was founded with Mgr Martin listed as an Honorary Member, and in 1951 celebrations are held on 25th July in Santiago in honour of the millennium of Godescalc’s visit.
And so, in the 1970's the Camino from Le Puy was born, a route designed using hiking GR routes to lead pilgrims to the Pyrenees.

Very interesting history of Le Puy which I plan for 2024. Thanks for posting. (I just about gave up on the thread with all the nonsense generated by a simple request for advice!)

 

[JabbaPapa]

Many places in Europe (with no pilgrimage history) had brotherhoods or confraternities devoted to Saint James (and numerous other saints). Some places, like Le Puy, which has always been a pilgrimage destination, evolved into a starting place for a pilgrimage to Compostela just 50-odd years ago. The 'Camino Le Puy' is now being made by walking.
In 1886, by complete chance, whilst authenticating manuscripts in the National Library in Paris, archivist Léopold Delisle spoted the name “Godeskalk” written in a prologue on a 10th century manuscript. The manuscript had been sent in a batch with others from Le Puy to a wealthy collector in Paris in 1681, thus saving it from possible destruction in Le Puy during the revolution. He wrote about his find in an academic journal in Le Puy but nobody took much interest in it.
The prologue, in Visigothic text, tells us that Bishop Godescalc, who had a special devotion to the Virgin Mary, knew that a valuable manuscript cited in the histories of Spain and Toledo from the 7th century titled De virginitate perpetua Mariae Virginis was in the library of a new monastery in Albelda near Logoroño and decided to obtain a copy for his parish. In 950, on his way to Compostela with a large retinue he detoured to Albelda where he compelled the monk Gomez to make a copy of the manuscript. (Gomez added the prologue with Godescalc’s name to the manuscript, telling us that the Bishop collected the manuscript in January 951 on his return to Le Puy.). Although this manuscript was copied at least a dozen times in Europe, until 1886 nothing was known about Godescalc’s pilgrimage. Even now, nobody knows when he left, the size of his retinue, or what route they took as there is there is no trace whatsoever of the Bishop’s journey amongst the documents in his church, nor any historic pilgrim diaries or accounts of pilgrimages made to Compostela.
The document remained incognito for another 54 years until Joseph-Marie Martin was appointed bishop of Le Puy in 1940. A Cannon of the church remembered the article by Léopold Delisle and showed it to Bishop Martin. In 1950 the Society of Friends of Saint-Jacques-de-Compostelle was founded with Mgr Martin listed as an Honorary Member, and in 1951 celebrations are held on 25th July in Santiago in honour of the millennium of Godescalc’s visit.
And so, in the 1970's the Camino from Le Puy was born, a route designed using hiking GR routes to lead pilgrims to the Pyrenees.

This is interesting, and there's a good deal of validity in it, but the anachronisms of our contemporary Camino notions are a bit different to what you suggest.

In that rather than the Le Puy route, or the Tours route, being end to end hiking routes, each of the major routes was itself a complex network of Ways leading to several unavoidable passages, where pilgrims coming from different places would end up congregating. So, Arles and Avignon because of the bridges, Tours ditto, Vézelay because it is a geographically convenient gathering spot where there happens to be one of the most beautiful gothic churches in Europe - - because of course there were tourigrinos back then too.

For a contemporary comparison, the Portuguese who walk from their villages to Fátima don't care about official routes, they just take the natural paths from their homes, but they still end up congregating in certain places, which in turn gives rise to certain particular routes becoming more formalised.

And from my own experience, I have found that when walking hors piste, the nature of the terrain and forced itineraries from rivers and bridges, the need to occasionally get into town, and so on, lead me into the more ancient trodden ways without even trying to ; so for example last summer I ended up without trying to on the Camino de San Francisco de Asis through the province of Salamanca.

So there are limits to how much revisionism is realistic, even though the notion of singular and separate Caminos is entirely modern.

 

[lalaone]

It would be great to know where Brierley learned this information. Thanks to everyone who has already reached out to him. To me, the number 78,000 almost seems like it should be interpreted symbolically. It seems too high for designated paths to Santiago. At the same time, it seems too low for the infinite paths that pilgrims take from their front doors.

Typing the number into Google, there are a few symbolic-seeming matches. Namely, a once-popular proposition (from early 20th century theosophists) that the Great Pyramid was built 78,000 years ago. I vaguely remember that Paulo Coelho dealt with the pyramids in his book “The Alchemist,” and that John Brierley quoted his novels in the CF guidebook.

Then again, a cursory search also revealed that there are 78,000 words in the Holy Quran! So who knows – connections might be hard to discern. Just a couple thoughts on the odd-sounding number, fwiw.

 

[dick bird]

@Elizabeth C., did you write to John Brierley via the contact page on https://caminoguides.com/pages/questions-feedback to ask him directly? Because if you didn’t I will. I am such a curious cat …

I wrote to John Brierley and he very kindly wrote back to explain he actually meant 78000 kilometres of waymarked caminos, which makes a lot more sense.

 

[dick bird]

I'm following up on an American Pilgrims on the Camino webinar I enjoyed a few weeks ago. John Brierley said in his presentation that there were hundreds? thousands? of established routes across Europe that could be considered Caminos. I'd like to pass along that statistic, but I don't immediately find it in my scan of the YouTube post of the event. Does anyone know where it is in the video? Even better, does someone know that statistic? Extra credit for the source! Thanks and Buen Camino.

He means 78000 kilometres as he has confirmed in an email. This is not far off the 51000 miles mentioned by Woody.

 

[dick bird]

Here is the video @Kathar1na mentioned. I set it up to start at where Brierley mentions 78,000.

He means 78000 km.

 

[dougfitz]

For a contemporary comparison, the Portuguese who walk from their villages to Fátima don't care about official routes, they just take the natural paths from their homes, but they still end up congregating in certain places, which in turn gives rise to certain particular routes becoming more formalised.

My conclusion observing the many Portuguese walking to Fatima was that it was not the route that was important at all, but getting to the Sanctuary. There was only one pilgrim walking to Fatima along the alignment of the Camino Portuguese, while there were hundreds walking along reserved lanes on the major road network. It seemed many were walking in community groups, with support teams following them or attending to them in the towns where they stopped.

It probably over-simplifies the matter, but whereas the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is important for the journey one undertakes, the pilgrimage to Fatima is a means of reaching the destination, and is not an end in itself.

 

[JabbaPapa]

It probably over-simplifies the matter, but whereas the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is important for the journey one undertakes, the pilgrimage to Fatima is a means of reaching the destination, and is not an end in itself.

I have never and would never treat the Camino as an end in itself, but only ever as a means to the destination(s), so I don't think it's so much an over-simplification, but a somewhat inaccurate generalisation.

Multiple purposes for "doing the Camino" or walking the Way of Saint James exist, and my impression is that most pilgrims have multiple reasons at the same time, but the pilgrimage as a pilgrimage is to the tomb of the Apostle, not to a hiking route, nor to sections thereof.

I do not discount the fact that many "do" it for the experience and not for the destination, nor would I dis anyone walking these ways in a different manner than myself, or than the more overtly Christian pilgrims, so that suggesting the journey simply "is" the most important thing about these Ways of Saint James goes too far in my opinion.

 

[dick bird]

I have never and would never treat the Camino as an end in itself, but only ever as a means to the destination(s), so I don't think it's so much an over-simplification, but a somewhat inaccurate generalisation.

Multiple purposes for "doing the Camino" or walking the Way of Saint James exist, and my impression is that most pilgrims have multiple reasons at the same time, but the pilgrimage as a pilgrimage is to the tomb of the Apostle, not to a hiking route, nor to sections thereof.

I do not discount the fact that many "do" it for the experience and not for the destination, nor would I dis anyone walking these ways in a different manner than myself, or than the more overtly Christian pilgrims, so that suggesting the journey simply "is" the most important thing about these Ways of Saint James goes too far in my opinion.

The paradox is that without a journey, there is no pilgrimage. The journey actually creates the pilgrimage as much as the destination, and for many pilgrims the camino is a profound and transforming experience whether or not that is what they were looking for. This is not a new idea: Bunyan's 'The Pilgrim's Progress' (arguably the best piece of religious literature in English) is built around exactly this idea of a journey as both a metaphor for and a catalyst of transformation.

From my memories of Portugal (I lived there a spell back in the late 80's), Fatima is very much the focus of the pilgrimage for people who walk there, and there are other belief systems where one's mode of arrival at the holy place is of supreme irrelevance. But from what I have read on this forum and elsewhere, walking the camino is in itself an important experience, and I think that is valid.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I don't think that's really a paradox, but rather a condition of a Pilgrimage or a Camino - - other than that, I agree completely with your post, and even this is more quibble than disagreement.

And to further illustrate your point, in the Roman pilgrimage, the means of travel is pretty much irrelevant, whereas on the Camino de Santiago de Compostela how and how far you travel makes the experience of it to some degree essentially different.

 

[dougfitz]

I have never and would never treat the Camino as an end in itself, but only ever as a means to the destination(s), so I don't think it's so much an over-simplification, but a somewhat inaccurate generalisation.

Multiple purposes for "doing the Camino" or walking the Way of Saint James exist, and my impression is that most pilgrims have multiple reasons at the same time, but the pilgrimage as a pilgrimage is to the tomb of the Apostle, not to a hiking route, nor to sections thereof.

I do not discount the fact that many "do" it for the experience and not for the destination, nor would I dis anyone walking these ways in a different manner than myself, or than the more overtly Christian pilgrims, so that suggesting the journey simply "is" the most important thing about these Ways of Saint James goes too far in my opinion.

You have read into my post something I didn't intend, nor did I think was possible when I wrote it. For the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela, the walk (or ride) is a necessary part of the process of visiting the tomb of the saint. It is right there on the Cathedral's webpage. The end is to visit the tomb, but one undertakes that by walking.

I could not find an equivalent for Fatima, despite what were clearly large numbers of people undertaking the journey to Fatima on foot using the public roads. I don't know that what I saw would have been enough to fill the new basilica, let alone the plaza, even considering that they would have been coming from many other directions than travelling south.

No doubt a similar situation exists in Santiago, where those undertaking the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela, as described by the cathedral, are a small fraction of the total number of visitors to the cathedral. But those many other are not accorded the privilege of claiming the Compostela, the formal acknowledgement of having completed the pilgrimage.

 

[dick bird]

This thread has served its purpose so it is being closed.