How to treat gear with Permethrin? / Do I need waterproof pack

[fe00312]

Hi All,

I will be starting my Camino from SJPP in just over a week and finalizing my equipment and packing preparations. Just a couple last minute questions I am hoping for advice on:

First, I don't think that April will be a bad month for bedbugs but don't want to take chances so have purchase a Permethrin pump spray. There isn't much info on the bottle on how to apply it, particularly to my sleeping bag. Do people recommend spraying inside and out? Just the outside? Also, should I spray my pack? Finally, if I have spray left over after all that, should my actual clothes be sprayed? If so, what - outwear, socks, sleepwear?

Second, I expect April showers so am preparing for rain and have a good rain jacket and pack cover (ruled out a poncho a while back), but am not sure about whether I will need rain pants. My walking pants are synthetic, wicking ones from TNF and should dry quickly, and the rain pants I ordered seem a bit heavy and I'm not certain if it's worth taking them. On the other hand, perhaps if it pours down for days on end I will be happy to have them. Really torn...

Appreciate anyone's advice!

John

 

[fe00312]

Thanks for the advice, Ping.

So it seems my options are risk bedbugs or risk negative effects on my immune system... Not really fun choices. In the spirit of compromise, given all the other glowing endorsements I found of Permethrin, I will try to mitigate both risks -- I will spray only the outside of my sleeping bag and pack and avoid spraying anything that will be in direct contact with me and my immune system. Perhaps that will work. Either that or I'll end the camino only half eaten by critters and having picked up a cold along the way...

Also thanks for the advice on gaiters -- Will look into them -- Might be a good option on the days (here's me being optimistic) when I can wear shorts.

John

 

[anniethenurse]

well I am going to treat my rucksack, boots and sleeping bag with Permethrin (not inside, only outside). I am doing like this guy is doing when he is treating his clothes. Spray it on, let it dry.
http://sectionhiker.com/treating-your-c ... ermethrin/
If we can put Permethrin 1% on our kids heads when treating them for head lice so I think I can treat my gear with it, too. It is also used for treating scabies.
buen bugfree camino
annie

PS. two pilgrims who walked lately have seen bed bugs. If you can see one bed bug there will be more of them very soon. They hitch- hike with us from an albergue to next one.

 

[jpflavin1]

John:

I, like Annie, have treated my rucksack and the outside of my sleeping bag. I did the same last year at this time and did not have any bug bites. I applied the spray in my garage and allowed several hours to dry.

In regards to rain pants, I would not go without them. Staying dry, especially in colder weather is very important. They are also good for cold, windy mornings.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[MCVet]

Just a quick tip, but if you're going to spray permethrin to your pack, don't let cats rub against it if any are in the area (say, you put your pack down for a rest and a feral cat comes waltzing by). Same for clothes: if you spray your clothing with permethrin, don't pet any cats you find along the way. Permethrin is neurotoxic to cats.

 

[dougfitz]

Permethrin is unhealthy for humans as well, so do avoid all direct contact with items sprayed with the stuff.

Personally, I'd not consider wearing or using anything polluted with permethrin.

Yes, humans tolerate permethrin better than insects. No, permethrin is not without negative effects on humans. Permethrin, among other things, has a negative effect on the immune system.

Ping,
what is your source here? I cannot find anything that suggests permethrin presents any significant level of immunotoxicity, or that skin contact with treated clothing or equipment is dangerous. Most of what I can find suggests the opposite.

There is a current FDA Public Health Advisory about a permethrin based lice/scabies treatment, but that doesn't appear to be about immune system effects. Other than death through mis-use, the major side effects listed are neurological, NOT immunological.

There is low absorption through the skin in mammals, so direct contact is not normally an issue, although one should avoid contact with eyes, nose, ears, mouth, or vagina. Of mammals, cats are the only species where permethrin is highly toxic.

It is toxic for cold blooded animals, including fish, but I don't expect that anyone would be dunking their permethrin treated gear into waterways - not all things in The Way are compulsory parts of the Camino experience!

If you have information that suggests that the FDA, US National Library of Medicine and National Institutes of Health are wrong on this, I think we would all be interested in knowing about that.

Otherwise, your post might unnecessarily deter people from taking advantage of what is generally considered a sound approach to protecting themselves from insect bites, stings, etc.

Regards,

 

[Anniesantiago]

This also has some information on not getting bit:

http://caminosantiago2.blogspot.com/2011/06/dont-let-bedbugs-bite.html

 

[dougfitz]

(waiting for the fall-out :mrgreen: )

As it stands, the use of permethrin treated clothing, mosquito nets and other barrier material, and with DEET applied to exposed skin appears to be the best option for preventing attack by biting insects. This position seems to be supported by credible authorities. See, for example, the 2007 Tick Management Handbook published by The Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station for the Connecticut Department of Public Health (a link is at http://www.ct.gov/dph/lib/dph/infectiou ... ok2007.pdf).

PingHansen's concerns are justified for topical use, where one might get the chemical into the eyes, nose, mouth etc when it increases the risk of neurological (not immunological) damage. The safety directions should be followed carefully in applying permethrin to clothing and equipment. My experience is with using a permethrin dip to soak nets and clothing, where gloves are used to reduce contact with the solution and special care taken when disposing of the residual.

Regards,

 

[MCVet]

Pyrethrins and pyrethroids are listed together by the US Environmental Protection Agency documenti as the second most common cause of symptomatic illness reported by the American Association of Poison Control Centers.
US Environmental Protection Agency, Recognition and Management of Pesticide Poisonings, 1999.

If consumed, likely. Pyrethrins are in pretty much all insecticides, so any insecticide that's ingested will likely have a pyrethrin in it.

Skin exposure to pyrethroids can also cause paresthesia, such as numbness, itching, burning and tingling.
JM Knox et al., “Parasthesia from cutaneous exposure to a synthetic pyrethroid insecticide”, Arch Dermatol 120:744-746, 1984.

Maybe. I'm not really interested enough in this to dig further and find out what the frequency of it is, but in my experience, it's a none issue.

As early as the 1980’s, EPA described pyrethroids as neurotoxic.
Recognition and Management of Pesticide Poisonings, USEPA 4th Edition, March 1989.

Sure, but through what route and in what species? What dosage? There's more to be considered to make this a worthwhile statement.

Permethrin has been shown to damage chromosomes (genetic material) of human lymph cells, part of the immune system.
C Barrueco, A Herrera, C Caballo, E de la Pena. “Induction of structural chromosome aberrations in human lymphocyte cultures and CHO cells by permethrin. Teratog Carcinog Mutagen. 1994;14(1):31-8

Pyrethroids can impair immune function.
F. Diel et al, “Effects of permethrin on human basophils and lymphocytes in vitro”, Inflamm Research 47, Supplement I, S 11-12, 1998.

With studies like these, you always have to consider what dosage they're at. It's a bit of a worthless statement without some context of what levels we're talking about. Normal levels through casual contact? Ingesting a liter of pyrethrin?

 

[dougfitz]

With studies like these, you always have to consider what dosage they're at.

Permethrin IS harmful to humans, but with low exposure the advantage can be greater than the disadvantages, as most people won't perceive the effects.

I had hoped not to engage in this debate again. I have challenged the relevance and accuracy of the statements PingHansen made when providing references to the harmful effects of pymethrin - it was longer and more detailed than I care to repeat here. In short all the references that have been given apply to topical use, and not to skin contact with pymethrin treated clothing and equipment.

The references that I have seen and provided conclude that transmission through the skin is negligible, and skin contact with treated clothing and equipment is NOT dangerous provided one doesn't get it one's eyes, nose, mouth etc. Treating a mosquito net seems safe, as would be clothing or a sheet to put under a sleeping bag. But I don't think I would want to treat a sleeping bag liner which I might want to pull over my head on a cold night.

People are at risk when using pymethrin based shampoos to treat mites or scabies, or when handling pymethrin based insecticides, and then there is a danger of it getting into one's eyes, nose, mouth, etc.

I can understand PingHansen's concerns. He is a bee-keeper, and pymethrin is toxic to all insects, and a great threat to his industry if it continues to be used as indiscriminately as it appears we do. But used sparingly and in accordance with the handling instructions about disposal, it is a safe way to treat clothing and equipment to protect humans from biting insects like mosquitoes, ticks, etc.

 

[Bozzie]

Hi All,

First, I don't think that April will be a bad month for bedbugs but don't want to take chances so have purchase a Permethrin pump spray. There isn't much info on the bottle on how to apply it, particularly to my sleeping bag. Do people recommend spraying inside and out? Just the outside? Also, should I spray my pack? Finally, if I have spray left over after all that, should my actual clothes be sprayed? If so, what - outwear, socks, sleepwear?


John

Hi, John and other peregrinos!
No one has said HOW to apply the stuff...how MUCH to apply. I am leaving in the first week of September right after the big influx of pilgrims to the camino during August. I'm sure I will need to prepare for all those who have gone before me, so...how much do I spray on my backpack, sleeping bag and outside of my boots? Also, can someone tell me where to buy a plastic sheet which has been sprayed with the permethrin? Is it better to take a sheet that I have sprayed? I really don't want bed bugs nor do I want to bring them home with me. I want to enjoy my camino adventure, but also know I have to be on the "look out" for this hideous creatures! Also, where do you buy the pump spray that can be taken on the camino? I saw a big gallon tin of the stuff at REI, but don't think I will need that much! I hope not!!!
Any help will be SO appreciated!! Buen Camino!!
Bozzie
(Dee Anne)

 

[Deleted member 3000]

how MUCH to apply

Follow the label directions. Spray to completely cover, and let it dry before handling it. You only need one spray bottle from REI, not the bulk quantity. I do not know how well it will work on a plastic sheet, which won't absorb any of the permethrin. I suspect that it will rub off readily, and not be particularly effective. I have a soft Tyvek sheet which I treat. I use it mostly as a blanket.

When you return, assume that you have bed bugs in your equipment, and act accordingly. I put everything into a large plastic bag, and spray it with permethrin. I leave it for a couple of days, then wash everything that is washable, including my backpack.

 

[willysmom]

This may help.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5671787_treat-c ... thrin.html

 

[msp41]

I have been reading the discussions about permethrin and i am beginning to think that this is something I have to do BUT her in my bugfree country I am not able to obtain this stuff. What do I do? Is it available in Spain?
I will start walking from SJPDP on September 3. Look forward to meeting you all.
Please tell me someone.

 

[Kitsambler]

here in my bugfree country I am not able to obtain this stuff. What do I do?

I did not realize that Iceland didn't have bugs ... even mosquitos? (Sounds like bliss, actually. Here we have Bugs Built By Boeing - huge things) Sorry, I digress.

You could check the REI and Amazon sites to see if they will ship to you. Failing that, you could check the sporting equipment stores in SJPP (they were pretty well stocked).

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Check farm supply stores. Permethrin is approved in Iceland for livestock.

 

[msp41]

Thank you all for your help. Now I will take a new round to tryto find this stuff.
Look forward to join you who are going in beginning of September. My day will be the 3rd. This weekend I am going trekking in the mountains here as I have been doing all summer.
See you!

 

[KEW]

Just a quick tip, but if you're going to spray permethrin to your pack, don't let cats rub against it if any are in the area (say, you put your pack down for a rest and a feral cat comes waltzing by). Same for clothes: if you spray your clothing with permethrin, don't pet any cats you find along the way. Permethrin is neurotoxic to cats.

Very pleased you mentioned this - for the good health of my own very precious cat! Ta

 

[adam sarantis]

hello, can any tell me if permethrin is available in australia?

thanks

 

[Anniesantiago]

The references that I have seen and provided conclude that transmission through the skin is negligible, and skin contact with treated clothing and equipment is NOT dangerous provided one doesn't get it one's eyes, nose, mouth etc. .

For me, this is like telling a person with a fatal peanut allergy, "There is only ONE peanut in that salad."

Or telling a person with an allergy to bees, "Awwww… that's just a little bee-sting..."

For most people, fragranced laundry detergent is apparently safe.
For me, it puts me down with flu-like symptoms for 4 days.
And that is from a 2 minute exposure.

I agree that for many people permethrin may not be an issue, for many others with allergies, overactive or underactive immune systems, just one molecule can cause issues, and each person simply must decide for themselves what is and isn't safe.

I tried using permethrin on a sleep sheet, and was unable to bear it.
I do, however, spray the outside of my mochila with it and after a day in the sun, there is no fragrance.

It's just a personal decision.

 

[dougfitz]

For me, this is like telling a person with a fatal peanut allergy, "There is only ONE peanut in that salad."
...
It's just a personal decision.

I agree that any decision to use permethrin on clothing and equipment needs to be made knowing one's own health status.

That said, the discussion at the time (2012), and from which my quote has been selected, was more general than whether permethrin might be suitable for people with severe allergies. Amongst other things, it touched on the significant threat posed by inappropriate handling and disposal of permethrin, particularly to bee keepers. It is probably worth repeating that following the handling and disposal instructions carefully is important if you care for the environment.

Regards,

 

[pbucilla]

How long before I leave for the Camino should I treat my sleeping bag and backpack? In other words how long does it last on the items that aren't being washed?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The products usually say that it lasts for 30 days, but I think it is longer when not washed. I usually treat about a week before leaving so that there is time for it to dry well. I have never had a bed bug bite, or found one in my equipment.

 

[wayfarer]

Quick question, I want to waterproof my rucksack before I leave as I always do but this time I also want to treat it with permethrin as well,first time for me, which order for this?, I presume is is waterproof first and then permethrin. Thanks in advance.

 

[jpflavin1]

This is what I use. Purchased at REI. Says it is good for 6 weeks.

 

[soumie]

Leaving SJPDP on 23 April . I talked to a friend who suggests I try Carbolic soap. Just shave off a few slivers with your pocketknife and put it around the bottom of the bed frame under the mattress. Clean it up in the morning before you head out Apparently bedbugs & other creepy crawlers hate the stuff. I'm not going to use permethrin. Bedbugs also hate diatomic earth.

 

[Cher.Rey]

Leaving SJPDP on 23 April . I talked to a friend who suggests I try Carbolic soap. Just shave off a few slivers with your pocketknife and put it around the bottom of the bed frame under the mattress. Clean it up in the morning before you head out Apparently bedbugs & other creepy crawlers hate the stuff. I'm not going to use permethrin. Bedbugs also hate diatomic earth.

Has anyone tried the carbolic soap suggestion?

 

[KEW]

Has anyone tried the carbolic soap suggestion?

I've just come back and didn't have any issues with bugs - I'm not sure I'd bother

 

[Cher.Rey]

I've just come back and didn't have any issues with bugs - I'm not sure I'd bother

I leave in Sept and I'm starting to develop a bit of phobia about bed bugs. It's such a relief to hear that you didn't have any problems. Did you treat your sleeping bag/sheets and pack? Many thanks, Cher

 

[KEW]

didn't do anything at all!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I leave in Sept and I'm starting to develop a bit of phobia about bed bugs.

It is not a phobia. The problem is real. You can plan for it, or ignore it. Both courses of action have some probability of getting bites with the statistical edge going to treating your equipment and inspecting your lodging for signs of bedbugs. By September you will be following a full season of pilgrims bringing bed bugs to every accommodation. A tale of one person not having a problem does not mean there is not a problem. Every lodging in France has warnings and treatment recommendations. Every tourist office sells bed bug insecticide. Clearly they have identified a problem. The level of risk you take is entirely up to you, but the chinches are there!

 

[Lynda t]

I sprayed and dried my sleeping bag. Presumably everything else in the rucksack with mix with the sleep bag.

 

[Coinrolls]

There's a video on YouTube.

 

[Kanga]

hello, can any tell me if permethrin is available in australia?

thanks

Yes. Yates sell it to treat garden pests. It is exactly the same stuff at a quarter the price.

 

[Lotta]

I bought spray whith perme... This antibedbugspray in the drogeria, for textil. I washed the clothes and sleepingbag and dried them and sprayed them. There is also lotion for the body / Skin in farmacias. And when i have washed the again, well, some spray again. I spray the bagpack now n' then... And when i arrive to an hostal... My bed. To day i met a woman who had been bitten. Yepp, it does exist. But don't blame the albergues. Most of them, 99% changes linen (sheets and pillow covers) every day!

 

[Lotta]

It's the backpackers who takes further!

 

[ndrea]

I have to get this stuff. I couldn't be dealing with bed bugs. Is this permethrin available in Ireland?