How young is too young to walk alone?

[Kiwi-family]

As I have been contemplating walking another camino in spring 2017 with my father-in-law (and probably two youngest daughters who will be 11 and 13 by then), I have been wondering what to do with the boys who will be 15 and 16. As they are homeschooled we have great flexibility, and I'm rather inclined to NOT just leave them at home while we go walking!
However, we will be doing a slow camino (if we do one at all) as father-in-law/Grandpa will be 85 and plodding along with a spine now supported by rods and plates (and someone else's bone for good measure).
These four kids have walked over 2,000km in the past couple of years - I know they are capable. The boys are quite keen on doing a cycle camino - is it any more tricky than walking? If I sent them off to do their own route, would there be any advantage to being on foot rather than with bikes? (other than slowing them down!)
Would you have any qualms about sending two lads to do their own camino at 15 and 16? If so, what exactly?

 

[SYates]

There might be problems in the albergues as they are legally under age and without parental or other adult supervision. Would it be a possibility to find a 18+ years old to accompany them. I can only say if I would be the hospitalera, I would feel very uncomfortable of having under age pilgrims staying no matter how well behaved they are (I am sure your kids are fine!) because of the legal implications if/when something might happen.
Buen Camino! SY

 

[hunsta]

I have been wondering what to do with the boys who will be 15 and 16.

Aaah leave them at home. What mischief could 15yo and 16yo boys get up to.........................................? I personally was an angel at that age.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

At the risk of sounding cynical, if you have to ask, you know the answer!

 

[dougfitz]

I think the issue is that of who is responsible, in loco parentis, when you are not close enough to fulfill that role yourself. I know that it might sound constraining on your two sons, and you might not expect anything to go wrong, but the consequences for them as minors are possibly more significant if they are travelling without a suitable adult who can take legal responsibility. I don't think the 'happy day flow' if it works is the issue here. I suspect it is ensuring that you have adequate arrangements in place should an incident or an issue arise.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

They would both be underage. Who will be making legal decisions on their behalf should they have an accident, or get in any sort of trouble?

 

[Anniesantiago]

I understand when you say they are responsible enough to care for themselves at their age. I was "one of those" young people who traveled alone from the time I was 5 with a note pinned to my coat. I drove the tractor at 8 and the family car to my job at the packing house at 13. I cooked and cleaned and did my own laundry starting around 8. I was never afraid to be alone, in fact, I loved the independence. I ran away to the Caribbean at 17 because my stepfather tried to rein me in too tightly and I did just fine. So I don't doubt the children are responsible.

However, that said, this is a different time and a different world.
I saw on the news just this week where a couple got in trouble for letting their 6 and 10 year old children walk to school alone.
I couldn't believe it.
Is our world so full of fear?
(ok.. I'm on a rant now)
I walked to KINDERGARTEN alone!
And it wasn't just a couple of blocks.
We ran all over the neighborhood and didn't come in until after dark.
I'd leave Saturday morning after my chores were done, and hike to the top of mountains alone when I was 10.
I went fishing down at the slough alone by the time I was 5.

And it's not like nothing bad happened back then.
The girl down the road was murdered by an intruder when I was about 8.
But we STILL never locked our doors.
And it didn't get worldwide coverage.

I don't know.. I'm just frustrated at how we handicap our kids by coddling them then expect them to wake up one morning when they're 18 and think and act like adults.

If it were me, and if it were 1980, I'd probably let the kids go off on their own.
In today's world, I'd fear going to jail for being a bad parent.

I think in the end, you have to follow your gut.

 

[Walter1407]

When I was 11 years old, I went cycling for a week with four other boys. The five of us were alone, spent the nights in Youth Hostels, and called home only once (no mobile phones then). That was in Switzerland, with a lot less traffic than there is today. The traffic on Spanish roads can be intimidating, but it is generally less dangerous than e.g. in France. Still, I would feel more at ease if the boys were hiking. I don't think they will have problems checking into albergues. In Spain, teenagers are not controlled as tightly as in other countries. Imagine anyone telling your boys: "You are underage. You have to sleep outdoors, in the rain." Not likely.

 

[Tincatinker]

Annnie, great post. I was born into the 1950's UK. A lucky generation. I would come home from school on a Friday night grab tarpaulin, blanket and frying-pan and head out into the New Forest. I was expected back in time for a bath on Sunday night. From the age of 11 I took my 8 year old brother with me (the little bugger wouldn't stay at home). We knew all about "bad stuff", being a tinker in the village was bad enough, but there where the past is another country we lived, happily, without the miasma of fear that seems to surround so many people now. Flogging a well flogged horse - the need for comfort, assurance, guarantee seem to be the current challenge of the camino when the true challenge should be the way itself.

 

[Kiwi-family]

At the risk of sounding cynical, if you have to ask, you know the answer!

Ah Falcon, I usually agree with you;-) However, your comment made me think more than the others (although others have certainly been helpful).
I reached the conclusion that I was asking because of what I don't know.
I knew children/teens were accepted in albergues from past experience, but did not know if there were rules regarding unaccompanied minors.
I had considered "emergency plans" for Spain and all scenarios I had come up with had solutions.
I was reluctant to send them on bikes (so perhaps your comment helped most in that regard), but I'm not sure my concern is founded on anything other than a fearful gut reaction.
In NZ, the boys would be free to go hiking themselves (although maybe they wouldn't take off for two months!) What would be different about Spain?
Was my sense of security on the Camino possibly misplaced?
Like some of the other commenters at their age, the boys already know how to completely run the household, so they are not clueless in that respect and their *ability* is not in question. It just seems a pity to me to have the physical capability and the practical know-how - and most likely the urge to do something grand - but still have to hold Mama's hand to cross the street!

I remain torn between thinking it is a wonderful opportunity for striking out in independence and feeling a little irresponsible at even considering it;-)

Perhaps the balance point is to let them walk alone each day, but meet up at a designated spot. They could carry Grandpa's gear for him and also take books to continue their studies each afternoon as they would have plenty of time;-) Or maybe we'll jsut send them to India like we did with last year's 16 and 16 year olds!!

 

[SYates]

Perhaps the balance point is to let them walk alone each day, but meet up at a designated spot. They could carry Grandpa's gear for him and also take books to continue their studies each afternoon as they would have plenty of time;-)

I really like that idea as it would be, in my opinion, a good balance between freedom (theirs) and freedom of responsibility (for the hospitaleros concerned)! Buen Camino! SY

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I reached the conclusion that I was asking because of what I don't know.

Child, Youth and Family Services may be able to give you a sound perspective. You could give them a call.

 

[SYates]

I am not a lawyer, nor a parent, but staying in any place of accommodation in Europe means entering a legal contract concerning said accommodation. If one of the parties, the under age pilgrim(s) is not of legal age that will pose a legal problem for the albergue owner. Buen Camino! SY

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I had considered "emergency plans" for Spain and all scenarios I had come up with had solutions.

Since you're from NZ I assume your children do not have free access to Spanish healthcare. I'm a citizen but not a resident, and I do not get access to free healthcare. So ... in case of a medical emergency ... (not life threatening), will anyone go along with their wishes to have this and that done? These boys are not of an age to enter in a legally binding contract. If they were home, they would be covered (at least in countries where health insurance is universal), but not in a foreign country. And what about them being blamed (rightly or not) for damages to an albergue etc.?

Yes, there is too much "helicopter parenting" these days, but that doesn't mean that legal responsability still applies for them, and those in contact with them (allowing them to spend the night in an algergue or offering a health treatment). LOVE the idea. And I know it would be a great way to build them up into the adults you hope they will become, but society and its laws and conditions may get in the way of this one.

 

[cher99840]

Perhaps the balance point is to let them walk alone each day, but meet up at a designated spot. They could carry Grandpa's gear for him and also take books to continue their studies each afternoon as they would have plenty of time;-) Or maybe we'll jsut send them to India like we did with last year's 16 and 16 year olds!!

I love the compromise you've come up with. The boys will be on their own all day, be helping grandpa with his burden, and have a bit of structure for the afternoons. They may not need the structure, but it certainly isn't harmful and will help allay the fears of nearby adults who might want to "contribute" to their well being.

 

[Former member 38395]

@Kiwi-family What did your kids do in India last year?

 

[tploomis]

As I have been contemplating walking another camino in spring 2017 with my father-in-law (and probably two youngest daughters who will be 11 and 13 by then), I have been wondering what to do with the boys who will be 15 and 16. As they are homeschooled we have great flexibility, and I'm rather inclined to NOT just leave them at home while we go walking!
However, we will be doing a slow camino (if we do one at all) as father-in-law/Grandpa will be 85 and plodding along with a spine now supported by rods and plates (and someone else's bone for good measure).
These four kids have walked over 2,000km in the past couple of years - I know they are capable. The boys are quite keen on doing a cycle camino - is it any more tricky than walking? If I sent them off to do their own route, would there be any advantage to being on foot rather than with bikes? (other than slowing them down!)
Would you have any qualms about sending two lads to do their own camino at 15 and 16? If so, what exactly?

I think whether this is possible and/or a good idea or not is dependent on the maturity levels of your sons. I don't know them, but I have to suspect they're pretty mature with the number of kilometers they have under their feet and growing up in a family where these kinds of activities are encouraged. I can't imagine an albergue turning away a 15 and 16 year old pilgrim. What are they going to say to them? "You're too young; go sleep in the rain.!" I've heard of heartless, but that does not sound like any albergue I ever stayed in. You might want them to carry a note from you to say they are doing this with your permission, just in case. You should probably both have cellphones, in case they need medical care or get into some kind of legal trouble, unlikely as these scenarios are. I ran into two 17 year olds bicycling across the United States to get to Boston by September in time for their Freshman classes at Harvard to start up. Exceptional kids need to be encouraged, not discouraged.

 

[Kiwi-family]

@Kiwi-family What did your kids do in India last year?

While I walked caminos with the youngest four, the 15 and 16 year olds who are interested in going into teaching spent two months volunteering with a homeschooling family and running a kids' programme at a conference. They then spent a month travelling round the country, clocking up 7,000km on trains and a few more on camels with Grandpa, who had spent his early years in India and agreed to chaperone them for the touring bit as an octogenarian!!

 

[Kiwi-family]

Since you're from NZ I assume your children do not have free access to Spanish healthcare. And what about them being blamed (rightly or not) for damages to an albergue etc.?

We always get a comprehensive medical insurance when we travel - and had the opportunity on our first camino to try it out. There were no problems and we got great medical service.
As for being blamed for damages....if anyone wants to take them on, good luck to them! They can argue the hind leg off a donkey. But I don't mean to be flippant. Actually, this was something I had not considered - I expected they would not do anything stupid (as in I would trust them to behave appropriately - and if they had an accident - perhaps broke a glass or something in the cocina, I would expect them to take responsibility for it). I had not thought about them being wrongfully accused of something greater. Question now is how much that "what if" affects the ultimate decision.

 

[tploomis]

We always get a comprehensive medical insurance when we travel - and had the opportunity on our first camino to try it out. There were no problems and we got great medical service.
As for being blamed for damages....if anyone wants to take them on, good luck to them! They can argue the hind leg off a donkey. But I don't mean to be flippant. Actually, this was something I had not considered - I expected they would not do anything stupid (as in I would trust them to behave appropriately - and if they had an accident - perhaps broke a glass or something in the cocina, I would expect them to take responsibility for it). I had not thought about them being wrongfully accused of something greater. Question now is how much that "what if" affects the ultimate decision.

Even if wrongfully accused, it will make a great story in years to come. I wouldn't worry too much about hypothetical remote possibilities. The more you describe your kids, the more I think they are up to the challenge.

 

[Walter1407]

From Wikipedia:
"Age of majority can be confused with a similar concept, the age of license, which also pertains to the threshold of adulthood but in a much broader and more abstract way. As a legal term of art, "license" means "permission", and it can implicate a legally enforceable right or privilege. Thus, an age of license is an age at which one has legal permission from government to do something. The age of majority, on the other hand, is legal recognition that one has grown into an adult."
"Age of majority should not be confused with the age of sexual consent, marriageable age, school leaving age, drinking age, driving age, voting age, smoking age, etc., which all may be independent of, and sometimes set at a different age from, the age of majority."

At 18 one is an adult in Spain, like in most European countries. The age of sexual consent is 16, alcohol can also be purchased from 16.

Underage people can of course enter into legal contracts, and not just in Spain. Nobody would stop a 15 year old buying a smart phone without parental consent, and they won't prevent teenagers sleeping in an albergue. As for liability, it is of course identical to that of adults: If you break something, you pay for it. So they should have both a travel health insurance and a liability insurance.

If you want to be absolutely sure you can always check with the Spanish embassy. I think facts are better than speculation.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

alcohol can also be purchased from 16.

Only in Asturias:

18 in most autonomous communities of Spain. Asturias remains as last autonomous communitie in Spain where the drinking age remains at 16. Although the Governing Council gave the green light to a new law banning alcohol consumption below 18, the new legislation is still pending in period, open to amendments of the parliamentary groups.

It is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, the fine being between €30,000 and €600,000. Stores are not allowed to sell alcohol between 10 p.m. and 9 a.m without a specific license, after a recent law was passed.

 

[cher99840]

Only in Asturias:

18 in most autonomous communities of Spain. Asturias remains as last autonomous communitie in Spain where the drinking age remains at 16. Although the Governing Council gave the green light to a new law banning alcohol consumption below 18, the new legislation is still pending in period, open to amendments of the parliamentary groups.

It is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, the fine being between €30,000 and €600,000. Stores are not allowed to sell alcohol between 10 p.m. and 9 a.m without a specific license, after a recent law was passed.

I still suspect you are a computer and not a real person---perhaps a warm fuzzy one, but a computer none the less. You said "bookmarks" but it would take a computer to select from the zillions of bookmarks that you must have.

 

[SYates]

I still suspect you are a computer and not a real person---perhaps a warm fuzzy one, but a computer none the less. You said "bookmarks" but it would take a computer to select from the zillions of bookmarks that you must have.

Nobody except you mentioned the word bookmark in this thread so far! So what does this say about you? SY

PS @falcon269 We might frequently disagree on this forum, but I do have NO doubt that you are a real, breathing, human person!

 

[cher99840]

@SYates, nothing about me. And I hope you didn't find my remark offensive as I have the utmost respect for anyone who has such a wealth of information at their fingertips. It's overwhelming.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I still suspect you are a computer and not a real person---perhaps a warm fuzzy one, but a computer none the less. You said "bookmarks" but it would take a computer to select from the zillions of bookmarks that you must have.

First, I check all alleged facts with snopes.com !!!!

Then the bookmarks.

 

[Walter1407]

Only in Asturias:

18 in most autonomous communities of Spain. Asturias remains as last autonomous communitie in Spain where the drinking age remains at 16. Although the Governing Council gave the green light to a new law banning alcohol consumption below 18, the new legislation is still pending in period, open to amendments of the parliamentary groups.

It is illegal to sell alcohol to people under 18, the fine being between €30,000 and €600,000. Stores are not allowed to sell alcohol between 10 p.m. and 9 a.m without a specific license, after a recent law was passed.

You are right, the age limit for alcohol consumption was raised from 16 to 18 about two years ago. And the age of consent used to be 13 in Spain!
Anyway, legalistically speaking the limit is 18 now for alcohol, but you might have noticed that rules and laws don't have all that much meaning in Spain. And if you keep your eyes open you will notice that teenagers much younger than 18 have no problems buying alcoholic drinks e.g. in supermarkets. In any case, that's not really the issue here.

 

[SYates]

@SYates, nothing about me. And I hope you didn't find my remark offensive as I have the utmost respect for anyone who has such a wealth of information at their fingertips. It's overwhelming.

No I haven't, just a wee bit confusing ;-) As for "wealth of information at their fingertips" more like my toes having a huge amount of suffering to share! Buen camino desde la profundidad de mi corazon! SY