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Luggage Transfer Correos

I admit, I can't remember!

Camino(s) past & future
started in 2012, hooked ever since.
One of the many things that really impresses and depresses me is when dear members, when asked about a particular route, year, Albergue, restaurant, hospitalero have such clarity of memory!
Is there anyone like me who although has a clear memory of year, starting point and finish ( I also remember what airports I flew from and into, but please don't ask me where the airport bus is) but has a more than hazy recollection of the "bits" in between? Now I say "hazy" not due to alcohol or other similar mind meddling things -eg pain or too many cafe solos, or in my case - age perhaps. But seriously can most people ,when asked about a trip you did 5 years ago, remember every detail? If so, which I accept with a sigh as possible, I resign myself to the fact that, even with the help of a journal over the past 6 years, I still don't have a totally clear recollection of roads, fields that shouldn't be crossed, dangerous dogs (which is my experience never were), places I wouldn't stay in again, the names of those wonderful cafes/ restaurants, of those not to be forgotten Hospitaleros. In my case if the name was not written down on my little piece of paper in my purse, then no chance), where certain towns are in relation to each other. Seriously some Caminos I do only recollect the start and the finish - and with the Primitivo I had a doubt for a couple of moments, where I finished - what's that big city with a wall that I had previously been in , oh yes León, I think.
So this is a big thank you to those of you who do recollect and share the wonderful places, people and places to get the airport bus.
However there is one thing I never forget and that is even if I don't recollect the name of the town, the place, restaurant, that person's name, I will hopefully always remember the feeling of being there, the experience and that is why I will always be grateful to all you people who write the detail and make me say to myself "ah yes, I remember it well" (to quote a line of some famous song?)
 

Bradypus

Antediluvian
Camino(s) past & future
Too many and too often!
I sympathize! Sometimes I have trouble remembering the name of the town I slept in two days before :) Oddly it seems to fix itself better in memory after I have finished and recall the journey as a whole. I remember some places, events and people quite vividly like a series of snapshots rather than a long documentary film.
 

CdnDreamer

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2012, 2015 & 2018) San Salvador (2018)
You are not alone @laineylainey . You could be describing how I feel when I try to remember the towns or albergues along the Camino Frances. I have to google the town, look up where I stayed in the Brierley Guide (I circle the place each night and date it) and then read my diary from the trip. And still I might not be able to remember much about it. I remember conversations, interesting people (usually their stories but not their names) and all the help I received and good feelings I had on the journey.
 

Jeff Crawley

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Contemplating yet another "final" Camino
but 2019?
I sympathize! Sometimes I have trouble remembering the name of the town I slept in two days before :) Oddly it seems to fix itself better in memory after I have finished and recall the journey as a whole. I remember some places, events and people quite vividly like a series of snapshots rather than a long documentary film.
My friend JoJo calls it PilgrimBrain - when asked where you stayed the night before you look over your shoulder in an effort to remember.
It's a bit like the Yul Brynner/Steve McQueen scene in the the Magnificent Seven. Brynner is asked where he's come from and jerks a thumb back over his shoulder. Asked where he's headed, he points forwards . . .
 

Tincatinker

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Lots ;0)
I used to "meditate" on my every morning commute from the south coast of England to the Great Wen by following in my head paths I had previously trod. With a little effort I can follow every step, incline, decline, overhanging bush and babbling brook. I can physically go back to a place I last visited 50 years ago (and subject to the depredations of 50 years of development) follow a path and know where it leads and what to expect around the next corner. If you wanted or ever needed I could talk/walk you through the route from my old farm at Tynant to the Alternative Energy Centre at Machynlleth over Cader Idris to the point that you could walk it blindfold in a storm.

But, I'm leaning in to the screen here because I can't remember where the hell I've put my glasses. I can't always remember the names of my staff at work. It's a standing joke that I call everybody George: perhaps because that is what my father always called me and my brother because he couldn't remember our names.

And I cheat(?), I keep detailed notebooks (paper books written in with ink) of all my journeys. I don't "blog" because I always forget the passwords and user-names and pin-numbers. My notebooks are on the shelf next to me, labelled and dated. If I need to access that particular file in my brain there will be a clue in the notebooks - a meal or a wine that I enjoyed that I can taste again and put myself back in that place and time.

Isn't it marvellous that we are all so different!

Oh, and by the way, on the Primitivo that city with the wall? That was Lugo ;)
 

Jeff Crawley

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Contemplating yet another "final" Camino
but 2019?
I used to "meditate" on my every morning commute from the south coast of England to the Great Wen by following in my head paths I had previously trod. With a little effort I can follow every step, incline, decline, overhanging bush and babbling brook. I can physically go back to a place I last visited 50 years ago (and subject to the depredations of 50 years of development) follow a path and know where it leads and what to expect around the next corner. If you wanted or ever needed I could talk/walk you through the route from my old farm at Tynant to the Alternative Energy Centre at Machynlleth over Cader Idris to the point that you could walk it blindfold in a storm.

But, I'm leaning in to the screen here because I can't remember where the hell I've put my glasses. I can't always remember the names of my staff at work. It's a standing joke that I call everybody George: perhaps because that is what my father always called me and my brother because he couldn't remember our names.

And I cheat(?), I keep detailed notebooks (paper books written in with ink) of all my journeys. I don't "blog" because I always forget the passwords and user-names and pin-numbers. My notebooks are on the shelf next to me, labelled and dated. If I need to access that particular file in my brain there will be a clue in the notebooks - a meal or a wine that I enjoyed that I can taste again and put myself back in that place and time.

Isn't it marvellous that we are all so different!

Oh, and by the way, on the Primitivo that city with the wall? That was Lugo ;)
Mum used to go through the list: Charlie, Mick, Peter, Jeff, Lorraine . . . in the hope we'd respond when she reached the one she wanted.
 
Camino(s) past & future
started in 2012, hooked ever since.
I used to "meditate" on my every morning commute from the south coast of England to the Great Wen by following in my head paths I had previously trod. With a little effort I can follow every step, incline, decline, overhanging bush and babbling brook. I can physically go back to a place I last visited 50 years ago (and subject to the depredations of 50 years of development) follow a path and know where it leads and what to expect around the next corner. If you wanted or ever needed I could talk/walk you through the route from my old farm at Tynant to the Alternative Energy Centre at Machynlleth over Cader Idris to the point that you could walk it blindfold in a storm.

But, I'm leaning in to the screen here because I can't remember where the hell I've put my glasses. I can't always remember the names of my staff at work. It's a standing joke that I call everybody George: perhaps because that is what my father always called me and my brother because he couldn't remember our names.

And I cheat(?), I keep detailed notebooks (paper books written in with ink) of all my journeys. I don't "blog" because I always forget the passwords and user-names and pin-numbers. My notebooks are on the shelf next to me, labelled and dated. If I need to access that particular file in my brain there will be a clue in the notebooks - a meal or a wine that I enjoyed that I can taste again and put myself back in that place and time.

Isn't it marvellous that we are all so different!

Oh, and by the way, on the Primitivo that city with the wall? That was Lugo ;)
Yes Lugo!!! Thank you do much @Tincatinker , seriously I could have sworn it was León...and of course it never was. I will never post a Camino plan on the forum promise x
 

Tincatinker

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Lots ;0)
Yes Lugo!!! Thank you do much @Tincatinker , seriously I could have sworn it was León...and of course it never was. I will never post a Camino plan on the forum promise x
No, no ,no. Post! Post amazing adventures and incredible discoveries and treasured memories. And if your geography is a bit wobbly some pedant like me or another of the brethren will strive to gently correct ;)
 

twh

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances May/June, 2018
Porto-Muxia-Finisterre Oct (2019)
However there is one thing I never forget and that is.....the feeling of being there, the experience
I too question my lack of memory about the name of towns and their order on the camino. It has not even been a year since my CF journey and details about things and places have faded but the feelings about the experience seem to be securely anchored.

I'm like that in "real" life with people's names. I can meet someone, talk to them for an hour (while using their name) and two hours later I have no idea what their name is but I could tell you all sorts of details about the conversation and how I feel about that person. I'm like that with remembering how to get to places by car if I am not driving. As a passenger I just don't pay any attention to trying to remember the route.

I am most frustrated by not being able to place (in my head) familiar sounding towns/villages that are mentioned in these threads. Was it before or after the meseta? Was it in the 2nd quarter or the 4th quarter of the walk? Was it between this town and that town. In addition to my start and end points I have a few markers that seem to have stuck in my head along with their order and location on a map, like Pamplona, Burgos, Leon, Sarria and O'Cebreiro. I have a friend who walked in 2017 and she seems to remember every single village and the order she came upon it during her Camino. The only excuse I cling to for being so bad at this is I did not have an itinerary planned out before or during my Camino. I did not stick to the start/stop of the Brierley stages but it just worked out that I ended up in probably half of those towns. After 2-1/2 weeks of walking, just following people and yellow arrows (like being a passenger in a car) I did my first calculation based on my pace, to determine if I would reach Santiago in time for my flight home. I revisited these calculations a few more times in the next two weeks, not picking towns ahead of time to stay at but just checking to see how many days I had left before my flight and how many days of walking (in kilometers) I had yet to complete. Other than the popular destinations mentioned above, I considered overnighting options at lunch time or I just stopped walking when I felt like it.

Fortunately I have a lot of pictures and video that helps to temporarily refresh the memory and one can almost "re-walk" the Camino using street view in Google Earth.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
started in 2012, hooked ever since.
Yes, you are so right @twh
And I love the reminders from Google showing me photos from my trip with dates and locations!! 👍🤗
But still as you say the memories are preserved and even for me short passing conversations are as word perfect today as they were when they were spoken!
 
Camino(s) past & future
started in 2012, hooked ever since.
My friend JoJo calls it PilgrimBrain - when asked where you stayed the night before you look over your shoulder in an effort to remember.
It's a bit like the Yul Brynner/Steve McQueen scene in the the Magnificent Seven. Brynner is asked where he's come from and jerks a thumb back over his shoulder. Asked where he's headed, he points forwards . . .
Yes yes yes!
 

C clearly

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016). Seville-Astorga (Mar 2017). Mozarabe (Apr-May 2018)
I am also amazed by the detailed memories of some forum members. I was thrilled a few days ago when I was able to participate in some reminisences about VdlP. That was unusual. I don't know if it is memory or simply not paying attention in the first place. On the camino I have trouble remembering further back than "yesterday."
 

Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Ch. d'Arles: Oloron Ste Marie to Aragones; Frances (2016); V.d.l.P.; Sanabres (2017)
I trust that when I am on camino I will remember, or at least note at the time, those events and places which become important parts of my pilgrimage, perhaps not by name, but by what happened to me there. So long as I go in the right general direction, don't get too lost, and end up in Santiago, I have fulfilled the physical goal of my pilgrimage. What I remember is more influenced by my experiences than by the geography.
 

t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
This numbing of Camino experiences affects most of us I think. For me, I remember my first Camino as though it was yesterday, instead of in 2013. However, the intervening Caminos are remembered less vividly. It becomes a blur after a year or so.

It is the same way with my five consecutive years working as a volunteer at the Pilgrim Office. I recall the first year (2014) vividly. Subsequent years are less distinct. But I do recall singular people and stories.

That is why I take and save lots of photos in chronological format. My iPhone stamps the date, time and place on each photo.

Incidentally, we use this data in the Pilgrim Office to support or counter a pilgrim claim if there is a doubt regarding time or distance walked. You would surprised at the number of folks who do not know that their phones automatically save this data.

iPhones also stamp the GPS coordinates on each photo. I know this for a fact because I used it to drive back to a secluded place on the Camino Invierno last July to retrieve the “heart of stone” near Belesar. Long story... you will have to wait for my book of Camino stories...;)

The plan is to move all my photos to a digital photo frame and cause them to play in an immense loop of thousands of photos. Eventually, I shall be relegated to living in a care facility. We ALL go that way one day. My plan is to have these photos playing constantly, either on the frame, the largest tablet I can find, or a TV.

Hope this helps the dialog.
 
Camino(s) past & future
(2015) Frances
(2018) Portuguese
(2019) VdP Seville to Salamanca
(2020) VdP Salamanca to Santiago
Usually about mid way through a Camino walk, I start to forget where I've been and where I am becomes less relevant. It must be the walking. There is only so much detail that you can absorb and so many good experiences, meals, and conversations that it all tends to run together.

I do refer back to my credencial and find a stamp and for some reason when I see the stamp the particular location and events seem to flood back in. Strange the way the mind needs a hook to bring back memories.
 
Camino(s) past & future
started in 2012, hooked ever since.
This numbing of Camino experiences affects most of us I think. For me, I remember my first Camino as though it was yesterday, instead of in 2013. However, the intervening Caminos are remembered less vividly. It becomes a blur after a year or so.

It is the same way with my five consecutive years working as a volunteer at the Pilgrim Office. I recall the first year (2014) vividly. Subsequent years are less distinct. But I do recall singular people and stories.

That is why I take and save lots of photos in chronological format. My iPhone stamps the date, time and place on each photo.

Incidentally, we use this data in the Pilgrim Office to support or counter a pilgrim claim if there is a doubt regarding time or distance walked. You would surprised at the number of folks who do not know that their phones automatically save this data.

iPhones also stamp the GPS coordinates on each photo. I know this for a fact because I used it to drive back to a secluded place on the Camino Invierno last July to retrieve the “heart of stone” near Belesar. Long story... you will have to wait for my book of Camino stories...;)

The plan is to move all my photos to a digital photo frame and cause them to play in an immense loop of thousands of photos. Eventually, I shall be relegated to living in a care facility. We ALL go that way one day. My plan is to have these photos playing constantly, either on the frame, the largest tablet I can find, or a TV.

Hope this helps the dialog.
love that idea!!
 

t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
Usually about mid way through a Camino walk, I start to forget where I've been and where I am becomes less relevant. It must be the walking. There is only so much detail that you can absorb and so many good experiences, meals, and conversations that it all tends to run together.

I do refer back to my credencial and find a stamp and for some reason when I see the stamp the particular location and events seem to flood back in. Strange the way the mind needs a hook to bring back memories.
That is why the credencial is the BEST souvenir. Take only photos, memories, and your credencial as a memory jogger.
 

Bradypus

Antediluvian
Camino(s) past & future
Too many and too often!
Incidentally, we use this data in the Pilgrim Office to support or counter a pilgrim claim if there is a doubt regarding time or distance walked. You would surprised at the number of folks who do not know that their phones automatically save this data.
I find that statement deeply saddening. Not sure I would wish to receive a Compostela given with some hesitation after such an overt display of suspicion. I think I would probably decline the offer and find some other way of commemorating my journey.
 

t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
I understand but if in doubt we will try everything possible to support a claim. Only VERY rarely is someone tripped up by the data.
 

timr

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Several and counting...
Incidentally, we use this data in the Pilgrim Office to support or counter a pilgrim claim if there is a doubt regarding time or distance walked. You would surprised at the number of folks who do not know that their phones automatically save this data.
Really? Oh no no noooooooo.
Some of us have a leader, in a country not far from Spain, whose lasting contribution to the vocabulary of government and administration is the creation of a "hostile environment" as an official policy towards foreigners. I had hoped it would never creep anywhere else.
I know the pilgrim office is a place of love and kindness, and I am truly grateful for the sterling work of yourself and other volunteers. But it makes me sad that such a thing would be contemplated.
 
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Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Ch. d'Arles: Oloron Ste Marie to Aragones; Frances (2016); V.d.l.P.; Sanabres (2017)
Really? Oh no no noooooooo.
Some of us have a leader, in a country not far Spain, whose lasting contribution to the vocabulary of government and administration is the creation of a "hostile environment" as an official policy towards foreigners. I had hoped it would never creep anywhere else.
I know the pilgrim office is a place of love and kindness, and I am truly grateful for the sterling work of yourself and other volunteers. But it makes me sad that such a thing would be contemplated.
@timr
Please read t2andreo's last post above: "if in doubt we will try everything possible to support a claim."
 

timr

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Several and counting...
@timr
Please read t2andreo's last post above: "if in doubt we will try everything possible to support a claim."
Yes I had already read that @Albertagirl and I am happy with that bit, although I worry about the level of scrutiny, even to help someone.
It is the other bit.
I simply state my opinion that I am very very uncomfortable with contesting a pilgrim's 'claim' by looking at their phone data. If it is the policy of the pilgrim office I must accept it. But I am not happy with it. "Countering a pilgrim claim" is something I find disturbing.
It would make me quite unlikely to collect a compostela in the future.
But it will not stop me walking.
 

biarritzdon

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF11, CF12, CP13, CF14, CA15, S.Anton15, CF&CI15
Ditch Pig16, CF&CP17, CdN18, CM18, CF18, LePuy19
I can remember all the words to the Beatles’ songs but have trouble remembering what I had for breakfast.
No problem having to remember the words to John Lennon's words in "Imagine" because the lyrics are strung out on series of trash cans after Sarria. It is kind of like a bad Burma Shave dream. o_Oo_O
 

Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Ch. d'Arles: Oloron Ste Marie to Aragones; Frances (2016); V.d.l.P.; Sanabres (2017)
Yes I had already read that @Albertagirl and I am happy with that bit, although I worry about the level of scrutiny, even to help someone.
It is the other bit.
I simply state my opinion that I am very very uncomfortable with contesting a pilgrim's 'claim' by looking at their phone data. If it is the policy of the pilgrim office I must accept it. But I am not happy with it. "Countering a pilgrim claim" is something I find disturbing.
It would make me quite unlikely to collect a compostela in the future.
But it will not stop me walking.
@timr
I understand. When I volunteered recently to be a hospitalera, I was sent information which required of me, as a hospitalera, only this: that I never require a donativo from anyone. But I suppose that I feel that, if I had come in to the Pilgrim Office to pick up my compostella after my pilgrimage and found that I did not have my credential when requested or had not been getting sellos as required, I would probably be grateful if the staff suggested using the dates on my photos as alternate evidence. If I consented, of course. But I am extremely defensive of my privacy. Yesterday, I refused to fill in a detailed form at a local senior's centre where I am taking Spanish lessons. Fortunately, they will let me continue. But this issue of privacy versus information is a critical one in our on-line information age and one that only the individual can decide.
 

t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
I find that statement deeply saddening. Not sure I would wish to receive a Compostela given with some hesitation after such an overt display of suspicion. I think I would probably decline the offer and find some other way of commemorating my journey.
As a follow-on thought, you might be surprised (or not) at the level of cheating that occurs especially during the peak summer months. A well-thought out scheme usually slides by. But some of the more outrageous claims are challenged as they ought to be.

Simply cranking out Compostelas to all who ask cheapens the serious efforts made by the overwhelming majority of pilgrims. Denials are not taken lightly. They are only done in the most egregious situations and are always vetted by senior office staff, not volunteers. The paid staff has over the years, seen it all and heard it all.

Personally, I abhor cheating, in all its forms. But, that is just IMHO... One is free to disagree...
 
Camino(s) past & future
I intend to leave the UK the day Before Brexit and walkMarch -April 2019 Camino Frances
I can't remember where I stayed last night,I can't remember to where I am heading,all I know is that 2 PM we decided we will be In the town/ village by 5. So the first place we find after 17:00 is where we sleep. The following morning I am out by 7 and the cycle begins again. Coffee 10:30. Beer13:30 beer 15:30 bedspace 17:30. Follow this plan and you will soon be at the sea. Job done! Homeward bound.
 

biarritzdon

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF11, CF12, CP13, CF14, CA15, S.Anton15, CF&CI15
Ditch Pig16, CF&CP17, CdN18, CM18, CF18, LePuy19
As a follow-on thought, you might be surprised (or not) at the level of cheating that occurs especially during the peak summer months. A well-thought out scheme usually slides by. But some of the more outrageous claims are challenged as they ought to be.

Simply cranking out Compostelas to all who ask cheapens the serious efforts made by the overwhelming majority of pilgrims. Denials are not taken lightly. They are only done in the most egregious situations and are always vetted by senior office staff, not volunteers. The paid staff has over the years, seen it all and heard it all.

Personally, I abhor cheating, in all its forms. But, that is just IMHO... One is free to disagree...
In a recent post someone said they saw a tour group being awarded with Compostelas at the dining room at San Pinero. When I questioned them and suggested they were distance certificates they responded; no, that they were Compostelas and everyone else in the dining room was equally shocked. I still doubt that kind of thing can happen.
 

Bradypus

Antediluvian
Camino(s) past & future
Too many and too often!
As a follow-on thought, you might be surprised (or not) at the level of cheating that occurs especially during the peak summer months. A well-thought out scheme usually slides by. But some of the more outrageous claims are challenged as they ought to be.
It strikes me that the greater the number of rules and the more narrowly restrictive they become then the more people will try to work around them. My first Camino predated the 100km rule. When I arrived at the cathedral and asked for a Compostela I did not fill in a form. Instead I was invited to sit down with a member of the cathedral staff who asked me about my motivations for walking, my experiences along the way, my understanding of what pilgrimage to Santiago actually meant, and how I hoped to build on the experience in future. My credencial was barely glanced at. No one counted stamps. No one asked questions about the route to test me. The conversation was to find out if I had met the spiritual conditions of the Compostela: that I had indeed travelled "with an attitude of devotion or because of a vow or promise" and that I had " devotedly visited this most sacred temple with Christian sentiment". Very hard to "cheat" in a searching conversation like that with someone who clearly had a deep knowledge of pilgrimage and faith. All of which has now been boiled down to an individual's self-declaration by placing a tick in a box marked "religious" or "spiritual". Instead the pilgrim office now mainly concerns itself with a set of fairly mechanistic and impersonal regulations: a 100km minimum walking distance, on a specific route approved by the cathedral, collecting at least two stamps per day, which must be presented only on an officially approved credencial. If the stress is now placed on such trivia rather than the religious and spiritual dimension of the pilgrimage then I am saddened but not especially surprised that some think these rules can be bent, broken or disregarded altogether.
 
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t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
I agree with about everything you said. There are few rules actually:

1. Walk the last 100 km on any approved route, and,
2. Prove you walked that minimal distance with two sellos daily, using a sanctioned credencial.

That’s it.

But people seek to cheat even those basic rules. The sole alternative to enforcing these rules is anarchy. I do not like anarchy.

Hope this helps.
 
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timr

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Several and counting...
Thanks @t2andreo this is helpful, and it is where I will draw my discussion to a close. I have no problem really with anarchy. Nor do I have a problem with cheats, nor tax collectors, nor prostitutes, nor sinners. Or, at least, I am moving in the direction of having no problem. ;) I am a Catholic priest. It is an unfashionable thing to be, and many would say an indefensible thing to be.

I read a book recently which included this:

'I once heard a pastor at a conference say that he realized his church had become a safe "club" for a group of like-minded people when he saw parishioners walking around and leaving purses and handbags in the pews. He concluded that if there is no risk that someone might steal your purse in church, then we are not truly welcoming the marginalized.' (James Mallon: Divine Renovation)

Thomas Merton, a contemplative Cistercian monk said: 'Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy. That is not our business and, in fact, it is nobody's business. What we are asked to do is to love, and this love itself will render both ourselves and our neighbors worthy.'

Pope Francis, in his letter Evangelii Gaudium says


46. A Church which “goes forth” is a Church whose doors are open. Going out to others in order to reach the fringes of humanity does not mean rushing out aimlessly into the world. Often it is better simply to slow down, to put aside our eagerness in order to see and listen to others, to stop rushing from one thing to another and to remain with someone who has faltered along the way. At times we have to be like the father of the prodigal son, who always keeps his door open so that when the son returns, he can readily pass through it.

47. The Church is called to be the house of the Father, with doors always wide open. One concrete sign of such openness is that our church doors should always be open, so that if someone, moved by the Spirit, comes there looking for God, he or she will not find a closed door. There are other doors that should not be closed either. Everyone can share in some way in the life of the Church; everyone can be part of the community, nor should the doors of the sacraments be closed for simply any reason. This is especially true of the sacrament which is itself “the door”: baptism. The Eucharist, although it is the fullness of sacramental life, is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak.s These convictions have pastoral consequences that we are called to consider with prudence and boldness. Frequently, we act as arbiters of grace rather than its facilitators. But the Church is not a tollhouse; it is the house of the Father, where there is a place for everyone, with all their problems.

48, If the whole Church takes up this missionary impulse, she has to go forth to everyone without exception. But to whom should she go first? When we read the Gospel we find a clear indication: not so much our friends and wealthy neighbours, but above all the poor and the sick, those who are usually despised and overlooked, “those who cannot repay you” (Lk 14:14). There can be no room for doubt or for explanations which weaken so clear a message. Today and always, “the poor are the privileged recipients of the Gospel”, and the fact that it is freely preached to them is a sign of the kingdom that Jesus came to establish. We have to state, without mincing words, that there is an inseparable bond between our faith and the poor. May we never abandon them.

Somehow, the Pilgrim Office in Santiago is an outreach of the Catholic Church. If it feels the need to exclude the "cheats" I am sorry, but I can have no part in that. And that is painful to me. I retain total respect for those who hold different opinions.

Tim
 

t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
Thanks @t2andreo this is helpful, and it is where I will draw my discussion to a close. I have no problem really with anarchy. Nor do I have a problem with cheats, nor tax collectors, nor prostitutes, nor sinners. Or, at least, I am moving in the direction of having no problem. ;) I am a Catholic priest. It is an unfashionable thing to be, and many would say an indefensible thing to be.

I read a book recently which included this:

'I once heard a pastor at a conference say that he realized his church had become a safe "club" for a group of like-minded people when he saw parishioners walking around and leaving purses and handbags in the pews. He concluded that if there is no risk that someone might steal your purse in church, then we are not truly welcoming the marginalized.' (James Mallon: Divine Renovation)

Thomas Merton, a contemplative Cistercian monk said: 'Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy. That is not our business and, in fact, it is nobody's business. What we are asked to do is to love, and this love itself will render both ourselves and our neighbors worthy.'

Pope Francis, in his letter Evangelii Gaudium says


46. A Church which “goes forth” is a Church whose doors are open. Going out to others in order to reach the fringes of humanity does not mean rushing out aimlessly into the world. Often it is better simply to slow down, to put aside our eagerness in order to see and listen to others, to stop rushing from one thing to another and to remain with someone who has faltered along the way. At times we have to be like the father of the prodigal son, who always keeps his door open so that when the son returns, he can readily pass through it.

47. The Church is called to be the house of the Father, with doors always wide open. One concrete sign of such openness is that our church doors should always be open, so that if someone, moved by the Spirit, comes there looking for God, he or she will not find a closed door. There are other doors that should not be closed either. Everyone can share in some way in the life of the Church; everyone can be part of the community, nor should the doors of the sacraments be closed for simply any reason. This is especially true of the sacrament which is itself “the door”: baptism. The Eucharist, although it is the fullness of sacramental life, is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak.s These convictions have pastoral consequences that we are called to consider with prudence and boldness. Frequently, we act as arbiters of grace rather than its facilitators. But the Church is not a tollhouse; it is the house of the Father, where there is a place for everyone, with all their problems.

48, If the whole Church takes up this missionary impulse, she has to go forth to everyone without exception. But to whom should she go first? When we read the Gospel we find a clear indication: not so much our friends and wealthy neighbours, but above all the poor and the sick, those who are usually despised and overlooked, “those who cannot repay you” (Lk 14:14). There can be no room for doubt or for explanations which weaken so clear a message. Today and always, “the poor are the privileged recipients of the Gospel”, and the fact that it is freely preached to them is a sign of the kingdom that Jesus came to establish. We have to state, without mincing words, that there is an inseparable bond between our faith and the poor. May we never abandon them.

Somehow, the Pilgrim Office in Santiago is an outreach of the Catholic Church. If it feels the need to exclude the "cheats" I am sorry, but I can have no part in that. And that is painful to me. I retain total respect for those who hold different opinions.

Tim
Father Tim:

Sorry, but as a cradle Catholic, I am compelled to address you in that form, now that you "outed" yourself. ;) But seriously, I cannot find fault in anything you say. It is all morally correct, and in concordance with Church dogma and teaching. I accept all of it, I always have, and always try to act in accordance with it. It is the interpretation and adaptation to real life situations that is sometimes problematic.

What I will offer though, is the observation that we in the Roman Catholic Church are the beneficiaries of a 'corporate' (albeit not-for-profit, per se) hierarchy that was been promulgating both divinely inspired dogma and formal corporate 'rules' for over two thousand years. Mostly, these rules were for the advancement and protection of the Faith, and were generally beneficial to the growth and spread of western civilization.

To be sure, like any huge multinational. and highly diverse organization, over the centuries and millennia we have had our share of scandal, impropriety, corruption, schism, and sometimes simply bone-headed rules. But, and as a general statement, the existence and influence of the Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy has probably been one of the major forces for development of western civilization and western democracies in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I believe this is not opinion, but well-established historical fact.

Without the Church as patron, the Renaissance would likely never have occurred, to pull Western Europe out of the Dark Ages. As an institution, the Church surely is not perfect. But it DID get us this far in societal development, along with moral authority and balance.

This all stipulated and established, the Pilgrim Office at Santiago is indeed an arm of the Cathedral and Archbishopric administration there. In fact, only a few decades ago, a pilgrim completing their pilgrimage would present themselves at the Sacristy, or the small office around the back, on the East wall, to the left of the Holy Door, near the Southeast corner. Having a separate Pilgrim Office is a fairly recent phenomenon.

Today, that small office is still used for Cathedral administration, and to issue Compostelas on Christmas and New Year's Day. These are the only two days of the year that the Pilgrim Office is closed. One presents themselves at the Sacristy before or after Mass, and is led to that office, where some Compostela related supplies are held.

As the popularity of the Camino increased dramatically over the past 10 - 15 years, the number of routes, places to start, and the variety of individuals undertaking a pilgrimage also increased. The moral complexion of these pilgrims also changed over time, and not always for the better. Just saying... Human nature is diverse by its very nature... It takes all kinds...

Originally, pilgrims were predominantly doing a pilgrimage for religious reasons. These pilgrims were likely more observant and circumspect in their motives, conduct enroute, and compliance with any rules.

The historical record DOES tell us that many pilgrims engaged in various merriment and debauchery enroute, but remained focused on the religious purpose. One presumes that they may have assumed that they could obtain forgiveness for their sins enroute in the Sacrament of Reconciliation / Penance once they got to Santiago. Whatever...

In later years, and continuing into the future, we are seeing an increasing percentage of secular pilgrims who are doing this for any number of other than religious reasons. The range of motivation arches from devout religious persons, of virtually any faith; to persons doing a walk for sport, a holiday, to repair a bruised psyche, get away from relative, friends, or the law, whatever.

Personally, I have walked alongside Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Shintoists, and any number of Christians. It is remarkable really. I have also walked alongside people clearly trying to avoid notice somewhere by someone, as well as itinerant persons who essential live on the Camino, relying on the charity of others to exist. The diversity of pilgrims and the variety of reasons for walking are as varied as the human race. I believe that is one of the most beautiful aspects of the Camino de Santiago.

Anyway, as the years went by, more and more pilgrims started walking the minimum distance to obtain a Compostela. Indeed and more recently, the number of Forum questions about where actual 100km mojone / distance markers are located has increased. Clearly this interest is from persons seeking to cut every last corner they can, while still remaining in technical compliance.

Some would say this points out the idiocy of having distance rules at all. I counter by saying that society must have rules to establish and maintain order. In this case, the very basic rules are needed to try to maintain some semblance of respect and honor for the arduous journeys of millions upon millions of pilgrims who came before us. For the accomplishment to mean anything to anyone, it must be worthy of the effort made.

If we were to follow the no rules logic, we should have the Compostela downloadable from the internet for self service generation at one's pleasure. Alternatively, how about paid self-service ATM-type Compostela printers on every corner in Santiago?

But seriously, ideas like this have come up, and regularly do arise. Clearly, technology exists to automate some or most of the current process. But, IMHO too much automation also discounts or may cheapen the solemnity and seriousness of the accomplishment.

We, at the Pilgrim Office and in the Archbishopric, are simply trying to maintain order, tradition and the solemnity of the base effort, which is to walk to Santiago de Compostela for the purpose of venerating the Apostle Saint James relics. That is what we, and the process are there for. We are not in the business of issuing participation certificates.

BTW, and in case you wondered, the OPTIONAL Certificate of Distance was only created and offered for a donation of €3 in 2014. This occurred because the Cathedral administration informed Pilgrim Office management that they could not afford to pay the salaries of the necessary, increased Pilgrim Office staff. The Cathedral told the Pilgrim Office to find a way to generate funds for pay for salaries and operating expenses. This document or one similar to it had been requested by many pilgrims over several years, especially by the longer distance bicyclists.

So, Pilgrim Office management identified and met the need for the distance certificate, but only as a last resort. The entire Pilgrim Office operates on a non-profit basis and only raises enough funds to support its operations. As the Camino increases in popularity and more pilgrims arrive each year, it is necessary to add staff, equipment and facilities to address this need. Everyone is pulling together to get ready for the coming Holy Year in 2021.

But I digress...

Resuming the theme of cheating and rules... I have personally witnessed bus-load sized, highly organized group cheating on the final 10 km into Santiago, for a group that started all the way to the far distant west, in Sarria... I have seen groups meet at cafes near the Pilgrim Office to rehearse their stories as pre-stamped credencials are handed out to "pilgrims' in perfect make-up hair, and clean or new clothing. The variety of schemes is endless. If we see them, we challenge them.

When volunteering at the Pilgrim Office, one also sees half-hearted attempts by essentially lazy persons to claim their "participation trophy." That is not what 1,200 years of religious tradition and practice exists for. We, staff and volunteers do not actively search out Compostela cheats. But, when evidence of a fraud evidences itself during the process, we are compelled to act to enforce the Archbishop's very basic rules. I mentioned them above and will not repeat them here.

The Compostela has existed for about 900 years (IIRC). it was originally written on parchment or linen before paper was widely available. In practice, the hard copy Compostela served as proof that a pilgrim actually made it to Santiago.

A new scallop shell originally served that purpose until unscrupulous vendors began selling them all over, and not only at Santiago. That violation of the original rules for documenting a pilgrimage led to creating the Compostela, as we know it.

Back in the day, a solemn religious pilgrimage to the Apostle Saint's relics at Santiago was also used as an alternative to execution, some corporal punishment, or banishment for any number of crimes. The deal was, make this pilgrimage and return with proof, or never return. My point is that, until the last 10 years or so, pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela was very serious stuff indeed.

About 10 - 12 years ago IIRC, the Cathedral / Archbishop created and imposed minimum distance requirements to define an 'appropriate' distance to travel to be eligible for a Compostela. I was not there, and I do not have first-hand knowledge of this process, or the reasoning that went into it. I am told it was instituted to try to halt was was seen as abuse of the process for Compostela eligibility.

What resulted was a proclamation that a pilgrim on foot had to walk the final 100 km of any prescribed and accepted pilgrimage route into Santiago, and be able to document that activity on a prescribed document (the credencial). The distance for pilgrims using a bicycle was set at 200 km.

Now, we all know that no pilgrim shows up at the Pearly Gates clutching a paper Compostela. Even assuming arguendo, that our faith is correct and we will be seen and admitted by Saint Peter and the angels, one assumes that the Holy Omniscience knows who completed a proper pilgrimage and who cheated. I believe that is what we were taught in our Baltimore Catechisms... at least, that is how I internalized it.

This said, flooding the market with unearned Compostelas is a gross waste of time and very finite resources. It also detracts from the honest efforts of all legitimate pilgrims.

In this context, I find little difference between this setting of reasonable rules for accomplishing a pilgrimage, and prescribing who can and cannot receive Holy Communion, how Holy Days of Obligation are observed in what counties and in what manner, what doors are used to enter and depart from the Cathedral, and so forth... rules exist for valid reasons. Some rules preserve dogma and teachings, some simply preserve the rule of law and order. Rules are not inherently bad. In fact, they give a framework to Western Civilization and modern societies.

Personally, I hold that the arguably very basic rules for Compostela eligibility, and the means used to try to maintain order and to retain some semblance of tradition, and maintaining the value for that effort is worthwhile. Enforcement is not undertaken blithely or lightly. Also, I believe that the means we use to verify valid claims, or to debunk fraudulent claims are reasonable and consistent with history.

In the past, one could merely present a credencial with chronological stamps. Now, technology permits us to use date, time, and location stamped digital photographs to establish claims where credencials have been lost, stolen or damaged, or where insufficient manual documentation is presented to support the Compostela claim.

When we enforce the rules regarding issuing Compostelas, we are doing no different IMHO than officials do at the cathedral proper to preserve the dignity and solemnity of the Holy Mass.

I hope this explains matters more clearly. And I further hope that if, we disagree, we can agree to disagree...politely.

Anyone who wants to discuss this over a vino tinto can find me at the Pilgrim Office from 6 - 20 May. I will even spot a round...

I hope this clarifies, and aids the dialog.
 
Last edited:

Jeff Crawley

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Contemplating yet another "final" Camino
but 2019?
Father Tim:

Sorry, but as a cradle Catholic, I am compelled to address you in that form, now that you "outed" yourself. ;) But seriously, I cannot find fault in anything you say. It is all morally correct, and in concordance with Church dogma and teaching. I accept all of it, I always have, and always try to act in accordance with it. It is the interpretation and adaptation to real life situations that is sometimes problematic.

What I will offer though, is the observation that we in the Roman Catholic Church are the beneficiaries of a 'corporate' (albeit not-for-profit, per se) hierarchy that was been promulgating both divinely inspired dogma and formal corporate 'rules' for over two thousand years. Mostly, these rules were for the advancement and protection of the Faith, and were generally beneficial to the growth and spread of western civilization.

To be sure, like any huge multinational. and highly diverse organization, over the centuries and millennia we have had our share of scandal, impropriety, corruption, schism, and sometimes simply bone-headed rules. But, and as a general statement, the existence and influence of the Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy has probably been one of the major forces for development of western civilization and western democracies in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I believe this is not opinion, but well-established historical fact.

Without the Church as patron, the Renaissance would likely never have occurred, to pull Western Europe out of the Dark Ages. As an institution, the Church surely is not perfect. But it DID get us this far in societal development. along with moral authority and balance.

This all stipulated and established, the Pilgrim Office at Santiago is indeed an arm of the Cathedral and Archbishopric administration there. In fact, only a few decades ago, a pilgrim completing their pilgrimage would present themselves at the Sacristy, or the small office around the back, on the East wall, to the left of the Holy Door, near the Southeast corner. HAving a separate Pilgrim Office is a fairly recent phenomenon.

Today, that small office is still used for Cathedral administration, and to issue Compostelas on Christmas and New Year's Day. These are the only two days of the year that the Pilgrim Office is closed. One presents themselves at the Sacristy before or after Mass, and is led to that office, where some Compostela related supplies are held.

As the popularity of the Camino increased dramatically over the past 10 - 15 years, the number of routes, places to start, and the variety of individuals undertaking a pilgrimage also increased. The moral complexion of these pilgrims also changed over time, and not always for the better. Just saying... Human nature is diverse by its very nature... It takes all kinds...

Originally, pilgrims were predominantly doing a pilgrimage for religious reasons. These pilgrims were likely more observant and circumspect in their motives, conduct enroute, and compliance with any rules.

In later years, and continuing into the future, we are seeing an increasing percentage of secular pilgrims who are doing this for any number of other than religious reasons. The range of motivation arches from devout religious persons, of virtually any faith to persons doing a walk for sport, a holiday, to repair a bruised psyche, get away from relative, friends, or the law, whatever.

Personally, I have walked alongside Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Shintoists, and any number of Christians. It is remarkable really. I have also walked alongside people clearly trying to avoid notice somewhere by someone, as well as itinerant persons who essential live on the Camino, relying on the charity of others to exist. The diversity of pilgrims and the variety of reasons for walking are as varied as the human race. I believe that is one of the most beautiful aspects of the Camino de Santiago.

Anyway, as the years went by, more and more pilgrims started walking the minimum distance to obtain a Compostela. Indeed and more recently, the number of Forum questions about where actual 100km mojone / distance markers are located has increased. Clearly this interest is from persons seeking to cut every last corner they can, while still remaining in technical compliance.

Some would say this points out the idiocy of having distance rules at all. I counter by saying that society must have rules to establish and maintain order. In this case, the very basic rules are needed to try to maintain some semblance of respect and honor for the arduous journeys of millions upon millions of pilgrims who came before us. For the accomplishment to mean anything to anyone, it must be worthy of the effort made.

If we were to follow the no rules logic, we should have the Compostela downloadable from the internet for self service generation at one's pleasure. Alternatively, how about paid self-service ATM-type Compostela printers on every corner in Santiago?

But seriously, ideas like this have come up, and regularly do arise. Clearly, technology exists to automate some or most of the current process. But, IMHO too much automation also discounts or may cheapen the solemnity and seriousness of the accomplishment. We, at the Pilgrim Office and in the Archbishopric are simply trying to maintain order, tradition and the solemnity of the base effort, which is to walk to Santiago de Compostela for the purpose of venerating the Apostle Saint James relics. That is what we, and the process are there for. We are not in the business of issuing participation certificates.

BTW, and in case you wondered, the OPTIONAL Certificate of Distance was only created and offered for a donation of €3 in 2014. This occurred because the Cathedral Administration informed Pilgrim Office management that they could not afford to pay the salaries of the necessary, increased Pilgrim Office staff. The Cathedral told the Pilgrim Office to find a way to generate funds for pay for salaries and operating expenses. This document or one similar to it had been requested over several years, especially by the loinger distance bicyclists.

So, Pilgrim Office management identified and met the need for the distance certificate, but only as a last resort. The entire Pilgrim Office operates on a non-profit basis and only raises enough funds to support its operations. As the Camino increases in popularity and more pilgrims arrive each year, it is necessary to add staff, equipment and facilities to address this need. Everyone is pulling together to get ready for the coming Holy Year in 2021.

But I digress...

Resuming the theme of cheating and rules... I have personally witnessed bus-load sized, highly organized group cheating on the final 10 km into Santiago, for a group that started all the way to the far distant west, in Sarria... I have seen groups meet at cafes near the Pilgrim Office to rehearse their stories as pre-stamped credencials are handed out to "pilgrims' in perfect make-up hair, and clean or new clothing. The variety of schemes is endless. If we see them, we challenge them.

When volunteering at the Pilgrim Office, one also sees half-hearted attempts by essentially lazy persons to claim their "participation trophy." That is not what 1,200 years of religious tradition and practice exists for. We staff and volunteers do not actively search out Compostela cheats. But, when evidence of a fraud evidences itself during the process, we are compelled to act to enforce the Archbishop's very basic rules. I mentioned them above and will not repeat them here.

The Compostela has existed for about 900 years (IIRC). it was originally written on parchment or linen before paper was widely available. In practice, the hard copy Compostela served as proof that a pilgrim actually made it to Santiago.

A new scallop shell originally served that purpose until unscrupulous vendors began selling them all over, and not only at Santiago. That violation of the original rules for documenting a pilgrimage led to creating the Compostela, as we know it.

Back in the day, a solemn religious pilgrimage to the Apostle Saint's relics at Santiago was also used as an alternative to execution, some corporal punishment, or banishment for any number of crimes. The deal was, make this pilgrimage and return with proof, or never return. My point is that, until the last 10 years or so, pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela was very serious stuff indeed.

About 10 - 12 years ago IIRC, the Cathedral / Archbishop created and imposed minimum distance requirements to define an 'appropriate' distance to travel to be eligible for a Compostela. I was not there, and I do not have first-hand knowledge of this process, or the reasoning that went into it. I am told it was instituted to try to halt was was seen as abuse of the process for Compostela eligibility.

What resulted was a proclamation that a pilgrim on foot had to walk the final 100 km of any prescribed and accepted pilgrimage route into Santiago, and be able to document that activity on a prescribed document (the credencial). The distance for pilgrims using a bicycle was set at 200 km.

Know, we all know that no pilgrim shows up at the Pearly Gates clutching a paper Compostela. Even assuming arguendo, that our faith is correct and we will be seen and admitted by Saint Peter and the angels, one assumes that the Holy Omniscience knows who completed a proper pilgrimage and who cheated. I believe that is what we were taught in our Baltimore Catechisms... at least, that is how I internalized it.

This siad, flooding the market with unearned Compostelas is a gross waste of time and very finite resources. It also detracts from the honest efforts of all legitimate pilgrims.

In this context, I find little difference between this setting of reasonable rules for accomplishing a pilgrimage, and prescribing who can and cannot receive Holy Communion, how Holy Days of Obligation are observed in what counties and in what manner, what doors are used to enter and depart from the Cathedral, and so forth... rules exist for valid reasons. Some rules preserve dogma and teachings, some simply preserve the rule of law and order. Rules are not inherently bad. In fact, they give a framework to Western Civilization and modern societies.

Personally, I hold that the arguably very basic rules for Compostela eligibility, and the means used to try to maintain order and to retain some semblance of tradition, and maintaining the value for that effort is worthwhile. Enforcement is not undertaken blithely or lightly. Also, I believe that the means we use to verify valid claims, or to debunk fraudulent claims are reasonable and consistent with history.

In the past, one could merely present a credencial with chronological stamps. Now, technology permits us to use date, time, and location stamped digital photographs to establish claims where credencials have been lost, stolen or damaged, or where insufficient manual documentation is presented to support the Compostela claim.

When we enforce the rules regarding issuing Compostelas, we are doing no different IMHO than officials do at the cathedral proper to preserve the dignity and solemnity of the Holy Mass.

I hope this explains matters more clearly. And I further hope that if, we disagree, we can agree to disagree...politely.

Anyone who wants to discuss this over a vino tinto can find me at the Pilgrim Office from 6 - 20 May. I will even spot a round...

I hope this clarifies, and aids the dialog.
What he said . . . I sometimes wondered if I was overly concerned with the cheats I encountered at the Pilgrim Office but no longer - nicely put Tom.
 

t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
Thank you Jeff.

I sincerely appreciate the kind words. I sometimes get preachy (well, a lot actually), but this set me off.

As a retired federal law enforcement and intelligence officer, I very well appreciate and support the rule of law and the need to have rules to keep the wide variety of humans on the 'straight and narrow.' Rules are similar to traffic laws. They help all drivers from all backgrounds and experiences between the lines and all moving in the same manner.

Formal religious instruction, in any faith, used to be sufficient moral and integrity grounding. Learning what was right and what was wrong at an early age used to be the norm. Learning that cheating was wrong, lying was wrong, respecting others, and treating others (all others) as you would have them treat you, were foremost among the basic lessons.

I sported many a minor bruise after my father got done 'educating me' following my many childhood transgressions. However, I did learn, and fast. Of course, that was back in the day, when "sparing the rod was spoiling the child..."

I do not regret it one bit. Even when my aged and now infirm father apologized to me some years ago for having been so severe, I told him that I understood, that he was doing the best he knew how, did not do a bad job with his four children, as we all turned out to be contributing members of society and none ever have legal problems, and that I loved him unconditionally.

Over the past 40 - 50 years, that appear to have been bred out of our civilization, writ large. In any event, thanks again for the support.
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/?/Invierno ('19)
I am a Catholic priest. It is an unfashionable thing to be, and many would say an indefensible thing to be.
Unfashionable, maybe. Indefensible, not at all. Quite the contrary, IMO...

This said, flooding the market with unearned Compostelas is a gross waste of time and very finite resources. It also detracts from the honest efforts of all legitimate pilgrims.
No-one likes fake anything. And cheating is equally distasteful.
But cheaters reap their karmic fruit in due course - if you plant an apple seed, you get apple trees...and plenty of apples. If the seed is bad, so inevitably is the fruit. And if the seeds are good the fruit will be, too.

Fortunately there's no market in Compostelas - and so one person's fraudulent acquisition of a Compostela can never diminish the innate value of a legitimate one.
 

marylynn

Donating Member
Camino(s) past & future
2011-12-14-15-16-17-18-(19) CF
2013 Arles/Aragones
2015 & 2017 HærvejenDK
My plan is to have these photos playing constantly, either on the frame, the largest tablet I can find, or a TV.

I have a headstart on your tablet/TV camino photo plan - my screen saver has at least one hundred photos from my last camino - it is set to start after one minute, so sometimes I just sit and watch my Camino life roll by...and savour the memories several times a day. My computer will come with me to the old folks' home.
 

Bradypus

Antediluvian
Camino(s) past & future
Too many and too often!
Fortunately there's no market in Compostelas - and so one person's fraudulent acquisition of a Compostela can never diminish the innate value of a legitimate one.
On the Shikoku 88 temple pilgrimage the custom is to collect stamps and calligraphy at each of the temples in a special book. Several times I read a warning that as these near completion they become a valuable object which might be stolen and so need to be carefully guarded. That struck me as very odd and quite ironic - especially in a country where petty thefts and similar crimes are so much less common!
 

NualaOC

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Past: Francés, Inglés, Fisterra/Muxia, Baztan, Primitivo, Norte, Portugués. Future: Madrid (2019)
Mum used to go through the list: Charlie, Mick, Peter, Jeff, Lorraine . . . in the hope we'd respond when she reached the one she wanted.
My mother in law did that too. It was tough on the younger ones - she had 13 kids!
 

t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
Unfashionable, maybe. Indefensible, not at all. Quite the contrary, IMO...

No-one likes fake anything. And cheating is equally distasteful.
But cheaters reap their karmic fruit in due course - if you plant an apple seed, you get apple trees...and plenty of apples. If the seed is bad, so inevitably is the fruit. And if the seeds are good the fruit will be, too.

Fortunately there's no market in Compostelas - and so one person's fraudulent acquisition of a Compostela can never diminish the innate value of a legitimate one.
I agree with you especially on the karma issue. What goes around definitely comes around. But with annual pilgrim numbers increasing at a very dramatic rate, any wasted time of effort to issue unearned Compostelas is wasteful and inefficient.

This goes beyond the essential fairness issues. Waiting for karma to sort it out is not likely to please pilgrims who have to wait an additional time in a queue for staff and volunteers to perform wasted efforts.

This said, the Pimentos Padron are on me in May... I look forward to seeing you then.
 
Last edited:

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/?/Invierno ('19)
And...yes...I feel for the staff and volunteers who besr the brunt of this. We who have to stand in line? Well, when I get in that queue, I see it as one last ritual before re-entering everyday life. So who cares how long it takes?😊
This said, the Pimentos Padron are on me in May... I look forward to seeing you then.
Ditto!..and...awwwww. Gee, thanks, @t2andreo !
😋😊🖐
 

Peregrinopaul

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
VdlP(2012) Madrid(2014)Frances(2015) VdlP(2016)
VdlP(2017)Sanabres (2018) Frances reverse(2018)
I would like to express my gratitude to Fr Tim and T2andreo for sharing with us their in-depth and very enlightening views on what I think is an important issue. In a strange way I feel it would be improper to to “intrude” on their discussion.
 

t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
And...yes...I feel for the staff and volunteers who besr the brunt of this. We who have to stand in line? Well, when I get in that queue, I see it as one last ritual before re-entering everyday life. So who cares how long it takes?😊

Ditto!..and...awwwww. Gee, thanks, @t2andreo !
😋😊🖐
🙏🙏😎
 

t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
I would like to express my gratitude to Fr Tim and T2andreo for sharing with us their in-depth and very enlightening views on what I think is an important issue. In a strange way I feel it would be improper to to “intrude” on their discussion.
You are very kind. I must state that I do not disagree with what Timr (aka Father Tim) says. I respect his positions and the religious basis for everything he said in his post. Similarly, I accept the parochial authority from which he speaks. This is my religious tradition too.

I just thought, and respectfully (I hope) offered a different perspective based on my greater number of trips around the sun...;)

None of this is personal in any way. My purpose is to inform and maybe influence better behaviors. People who know me personally know that I don’t have a bad bone in my prodigious body...o_O
 

t2andreo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
Just FYI. Fr. Tim (Timr) and I took our discussions into the PM realm yesterday.

Everything is cool. It is all good...:)
 
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RumAndChupacabras

Do unto other's as you would have them do unto you
Camino(s) past & future
Jul-Sept 2019 ~Apr. 2018 Oviedo, Santo Toribio, Covadonga~May/June 2016 Portuguese
...It's a bit like the Yul Brynner/Steve McQueen scene in the the Magnificent Seven. Brynner is asked where he's come from and jerks a thumb back over his shoulder. Asked where he's headed, he points forwards . . .
HAH! luv this!
 

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