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If you are interested in Spanish history, check this out

Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#1
I recently saw an article about this documentary about the silence around the Civil War, and know many people here will be interested to see it. Make sure you have some tissues handy if you watch the trailer, because it's very touching.

And if you reply to this post, please understand that even though it was over 80 years ago, the Civil War remains an extremely sensitive subject in Spain, as well as here on the Forum. It is as it is, and we cannot change that. So any ‘political’ posts whatsoever will cause the tread to be either locked or deleted altogether. For this reason, I kindly ask that you think twice or maybe three times before you hit ‘post,’ keeping the discussion cordial and ‘within bounds.’ But I do hope we can all begin to bring some light into what has been a very dark area by discussing the documentary openly and cordially.
 
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Glenshiro

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy - Burgos, Camino Frances (2012 - 2018)
#4
Between Villafranca Montes de Oca and San Juan de Ortega on the CF there is a memorial to several hundred locals who were executed by the Nationalists at the outbreak of the Civil War in 1936. It is one of many which have appeared across Spain in the last decade. For a full account of Franco's "cleansing" of Spain, read The Spanish Holocaust by Professor Paul Preston.
The war continues to cast a long, if often unspoken about, shadow.
 

Gigipro

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Coming this month - June 2018. Deciding route.
#5
I recently saw an article about this documentary about the silence around the Civil War, and know many people here will be interested to see it. Make sure you have some tissues handy if you watch the trailer, because it's very touching.

And if you reply to this post, please understand that even though it was over 80 years ago, the Civil War remains an extremely sensitive subject in Spain, as well as here on the Forum. It is as it is, and we cannot change that. So any ‘political’ posts whatsoever will cause the tread to be either locked or deleted altogether. For this reason, I kindly ask that you think twice or maybe three times before you hit ‘post,’ keeping the discussion cordial and ‘within bounds.’ But I do hope we can all begin to bring some light into what has been a very dark area by discussing the documentary openly and cordially.

Excellent that you bring this era up for discussion. I was a teen ager when I read the biography of a surgeon who helped civilians in this war and a teenager when I saw the movie To Die in Madrid, and also a teen when Fraco died. At his death, I was disturbed by the fact that I felt glad. Such a time, and may they, please, forever heed the lessons of that history. Garcia Lorca was killed by those facists. I am coming to the camino - when I decide which one, and I am going to Granada to lay a rose at the monument for Lorca.
 

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Gigipro

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Coming this month - June 2018. Deciding route.
#6
Between Villafranca Montes de Oca and San Juan de Ortega on the CF there is a memorial to several hundred locals who were executed by the Nationalists at the outbreak of the Civil War in 1936. It is one of many which have appeared across Spain in the last decade. For a full account of Franco's "cleansing" of Spain, read The Spanish Holocaust by Professor Paul Preston.
The war continues to cast a long, if often unspoken about, shadow.
Between Villafranca Montes de Oca and San Juan de Ortega on the CF there is a memorial to several hundred locals who were executed by the Nationalists at the outbreak of the Civil War in 1936. It is one of many which have appeared across Spain in the last decade. For a full account of Franco's "cleansing" of Spain, read The Spanish Holocaust by Professor Paul Preston.
The war continues to cast a long, if often unspoken about, shadow.
As. I said in my respose to another post on this subject, thank you for bringing this up. I am coming this month and still deciding which camino, I would like to see these and other monuments. I only wish the world would heed this history. I am going to visit a monument for Garcia Lorca in Grenada.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#8
The war continues to cast a long, if often unspoken about, shadow.
Like everything we suppress. Inside too.;)

I only wish the world would heed this history.
Ditto, @Gigipro ! But unfortunately that never seems to happen. Once a few generations go by...poof. We forget - and whatever it is is off the human radar screen.

Not yet on YouTube or Netflix though.
It seems to be making the rounds of film festivals.
So there is a schedule of festival screenings in Europe and the US, and once that's done I'm guessing it will be more widely available. The interesting thing is that there are no screenings in Spain.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances, 2015
#10
Once a few generations go by...poof. We forget - and whatever it is is off the human radar screen.
What's a few? (Rhetorical question.) My paternal grandfather's grandfathers fought in the American Civil War and now I see young men that could be my grandsons fighting and even killing over Civil War monuments.

Edit: Sorry @VNwalking, later thoughts caused me to see that the above comment could be seen as a challenge to yours. I meant it to show that at least for some memories are long. And it certainly was not an attempt to change the theater of war, so to speak.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
SEPT '13 CF - SJPP to Santiago
OCT '14 Porto to Santiago
#11
I recently saw an article about this documentary about the silence around the Civil War, and know many people here will be interested to see it. Make sure you have some tissues handy if you watch the trailer, because it's very touching.

And if you reply to this post, please understand that even though it was over 80 years ago, the Civil War remains an extremely sensitive subject in Spain, as well as here on the Forum. It is as it is, and we cannot change that. So any ‘political’ posts whatsoever will cause the tread to be either locked or deleted altogether. For this reason, I kindly ask that you think twice or maybe three times before you hit ‘post,’ keeping the discussion cordial and ‘within bounds.’ But I do hope we can all begin to bring some light into what has been a very dark area by discussing the documentary openly and cordially.
Very moving ....
 
Camino(s) past & future
April (2015) SJPdP to SdC; Porto to SdC April (2016)
#14
Thank you to @VNwalking for this thread and for the important caveats emphasised by @grayland about the need to take care in responses.
Some members unfamiliar with the complexities of the history and the various groups/alliances involved in the conflict (as I was) may find Helen Graham's 'The Spanish Civil War' interesting. It is in the OUP's 'A Very Short Introduction' series and runs to 176 pages. Reading the book challenged my own partisan & simplistic understanding of events during this period and made me ashamed of the (in)action of my own country, the UK.
 

kdespot

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés SJPP-SdC Sept-Oct 2016
#16
Thanks very much for posting this thread, VNwalking. The book I read along the Camino (tearing out the pages after reading them) was Hotel Florida: Truth, Love and Death in the Spanish Civil War by Amanda Vaill. It's a non-fiction account of six journalists who covered the civil war, but reads like a novel. Other good ones are Spain in our Hearts: Americans in the Spanish Civil War by Adam Hochschild, another narrative non-fiction that's a really good read, Guernica by Dave Boling, a novel that takes the reader inside the Basque culture and through the horror of the bombing of that city, and The Basque History of the World by Mark Kurlansky. I'd love to hear of any other recommendations of good books about Spanish history, especially in the areas that the Camino passes through.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#18
Regardless of motive, regardless of which "side" they were on, regardless of nationality, may they all now Rest in Peace.
Amen, Stephen. Amen.
Actually that's a good question, Rick.
I was thinking of kids I saw at Westerbork recently - and you could tell this was an unimaginable ancient history to them. And irrelevant. 70 years of peace and you get "WWII? Why should we care about that?"
I realize as I write this that Spain is different. No-one has forgotten, because there is the trying to do that.
 

stevov

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
walked the portuguese way (senda littoral). from porto, vila do conde via viana and redondela Jun 17
#20
Having gone off route out of Vigo i came across a memorial ...it moved me to post the following on my blog ...."...
We set off out of town alongside the port and without too much of a clue we accidentally find ourselves in alameda Monte da Guia, the hill side park that sits above the city and bay. I am sure we are off the Camino but this out of town route provides a more significant alternative. The park is shaded, green, quiet, with commanding views over Vigo Bay. It has a strange almost subdued atmosphere.


We follow the circular path towards the capela at the summit and then come across a
memorial to the local people ‘murdered during the fascist dictatorship’, two of whom (a wife and husband) were shot on this spot in 1937.
It’s a disturbing reminder of a dreadful recent past that resonates to this day, suffice to say it took over 70 years to institute this memorial..."
 
Camino(s) past & future
300k of camino del norte 2014
Much of CF 2017
#21
The Carlist museum in Estela has a section on the civil war and there is a wonderful museum in Guernika. Both offer discounts for pilgrims. Bielsa, where the republican army was trapped in 1938, also has a very moving museum. I am not sure which camino this is on
 

Gigipro

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Coming this month - June 2018. Deciding route.
#24
There are also many memorials along the beautiful Ruta del Ebro, remembering all those who died in the disastrous Battle of the Ebro. Regardless of motive, regardless of which "side" they were on, regardless of nationality, may they all now Rest in Peace.

View attachment 43557
I would love to be walking with people on this thread.
 

grayland

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Yes
#25
I remember where it is. When you come to the plaza (on Camino) it's placed on the left corner house about three meters high facing the plaza.
Is this the main plaza in Carrion? Next to the Santa Maria Church and albergue (with singing nuns)?
I can remember seeing the sign somewhere...but can't remember what camino or where it was.
 
Camino(s) past & future
'
#28

KinkyOne

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
I'am not perfect, but I'm always myself!!!
#29
Is this the main plaza in Carrion? Next to the Santa Maria Church and albergue (with singing nuns)?
I can remember seeing the sign somewhere...but can't remember what camino or where it was.
It's the main plaza further along the Camino through Carrion (as @Rick of Rick and Peg described) and is down on the left side of the street you are walking.

Carrión eliminará las calles franquistas para cumplir con la Memoria Histórica

The article dates from April 2016, and it's not quite clear to me with my limited Spanish whether the changes have actually been made official in the meantime.
In June 2016 it was still there but I wouldn't know after that.

Here is a streetview from July 2014. The white plaque on the corner (left of the sign Bar Carmen) is where the Franco is mentioned and the Camino goes along the street on the left: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Carrión+de+los+Condes,+Palencia,+Spain/@42.3380296,-4.6038805,3a,60y,134.39h,94.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYnfPpS8g7Wlr1Eh-5f4dKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0xd47daf89b22bc4b:0xb44f35b3bcda0462!8m2!3d42.3307302!4d-4.6140481
 
Camino(s) past & future
'
#30
The article dates from April 2016, and it's not quite clear to me with my limited Spanish whether the changes have actually been made official in the meantime.
The name of the plaza has apparently been changed to Plaza Mayor, at least that's the address that the Bar Carmen gives on their Facebook page: Plaza Mayor 08. Google still has Plaza Generalísimo, 0. Luckily, their telephone number didn't change ... Same for the address of the town hall which is now Plaza Mayor, 1 but you can still find plenty of websites that have Plaza General Franco as their address.

Google Streetview is more up to date:

Carmen Condes.jpeg
Caixa Condes.jpeg

I walked through there without seeing any of these signs, with or without inscription ...

PS: @KinkyOne, we posted at the same time!
 
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#31
Very interesting thread, VN, people have raised a lot of fascinating related historical issues. There are lots of lessons waiting for us on the Camino if we know what to look for! I have learned how important place names are to a town's residents. I was vaguely aware of this Ley de la Memoria that others have referenced, but it wasn't till I walked through San Leonardo de Yagüe on the Castellano-Aragonés that I could really feel it. This town got the added "de Yagüe" during the Franco era (Yagüe was known as the Butcher of Badajoz, relating to his role in the Civil War). He was also from this small town, and after the war, made sure that it got its first theater, its first connection to the electricity grid, its first medical center, its first library, etc etc. The law has required removal of the Yagüe but it hadn't yet happened (though my sello from the ayuntamiento said only San Leonardo). New road signs, entrance signs, etc, all said San Leonardo de Yagüe. Not surprisingly, I found three groups of people on my afternoon swing through the bars with one of @LTfit 's friends. There was a group of mainly elderly people who very fiercely wanted to keep the name in memory of this man who had done so much for this town; there was a group who very fiercely wanted to remove the name in memory of his victims and in compliance with the law; and then there were those for whom this just produced a shrug and who were more interested in going to see the performance of traditional jota dances in the theater without caring whether it was named "de Yagüe." I believe there is a nonprofit group that will bankroll the legal costs of any town willing to defy the law and keep their names, which just shows you how very high emotions run on this topic.
 

Gigipro

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Coming this month - June 2018. Deciding route.
#32
Very interesting thread, VN, people have raised a lot of fascinating related historical issues. There are lots of lessons waiting for us on the Camino if we know what to look for! I have learned how important place names are to a town's residents. I was vaguely aware of this Ley de la Memoria that others have referenced, but it wasn't till I walked through San Leonardo de Yagüe on the Castellano-Aragonés that I could really feel it. This town got the added "de Yagüe" during the Franco era (Yagüe was known as the Butcher of Badajoz, relating to his role in the Civil War). He was also from this small town, and after the war, made sure that it got its first theater, its first connection to the electricity grid, its first medical center, its first library, etc etc. The law has required removal of the Yagüe but it hadn't yet happened (though my sello from the ayuntamiento said only San Leonardo). New road signs, entrance signs, etc, all said San Leonardo de Yagüe. Not surprisingly, I found three groups of people on my afternoon swing through the bars with one of @LTfit 's friends. There was a group of mainly elderly people who very fiercely wanted to keep the name in memory of this man who had done so much for this town; there was a group who very fiercely wanted to remove the name in memory of his victims and in compliance with the law; and then there were those for whom this just produced a shrug and who were more interested in going to see the performance of traditional jota dances in the theater without caring whether it was named "de Yagüe." I believe there is a nonprofit group that will bankroll the legal costs of any town willing to defy the law and keep their names, which just shows you how very high emotions run on this topic.
This is frightening to me.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#33
Thank you for your cordial and informative posts, everyone. It's very interesting how much is there but often unnoticed.
This is frightening to me
Yes...It's pretty scary what human beings have done (and will continue to do) to each other.
But one thing that's sure is that what is hidden is much scarier than what is exposed and given light and air. So I am glad this film has been made and really hope it gets viewed in Spain, too, and not just by the rest of us.
there were those for whom this just produced a shrug and who were more interested in going to see the performance of traditional jota dances in the theater without caring whether it was named "de Yagüe."
This is heavy topic, but this part of your post made me smile, Laurie. I can so see it.
 
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Tincatinker

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Lots ;0)
#34
I lost 'family' on both sides of that tragic conflict. Politics can make fools of brothers as well as nations. My mother remembered the Basque children in the 'settlement' camp on the northern edge of Southampton scrounging cigarretes through the barbed wire. She wasn't much more than a child herself. She took sweets but apparently cigarettes were more valued currency. Walking in Spain in the late '60's the fear and the bitterness and the gloating smugness of the victors were all palpable.

We remember...
 
#35
If anyone on the forum learns about venues showing this film, PLEASE let us know. I have written to my local art theater to put in a plug, but I am not holding my breath. I assume it will be on Netflix or one of those sites, as well.
 
#36
This is frightening to me.
Hi, Gigipro,
VNwalking interpreted your post in one way, but I wonder if you are saying that it makes you afraid to walk on the camino. If that is what you are suggesting, I can only say that you should put all your fears in that regard to rest. There is no actual physical conflict going on, at least not now, it is more about hearts and minds and how to make sense of so many years of fascism in a country we now look to as an example of modern democracy.

Buen camino, Laurie
 
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#37
If anyone on the forum learns about venues showing this film, PLEASE let us know
There is a list of film festival screenings here:
https://thesilenceofothers.com/
Tomorrow and the next night in NYC, later this week in DC, and then early in July in London.
The site said it will be shown in Spain in the fall.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#39
it is more about hearts and minds and how to make sense of so many years of fascism in a country we now look to as an example of modern democracy.
Hearts and minds are the main point here - and trust.
And what becomes of hearts when what is happening cannot be freely spoken about.
I was walking a few years ago through a small village on the San Olav near Burgos, and the mayor gave me a tour of the place. At one point, he pointed up to the hills above the town and said something like "Lots of death up there...," and the look on his face spoke volumes that he did not express in words. And because my Spanish is almost non- existent, I did not have the diplomatic language to ask for the details - and anyway, I would not have understood them.
But how wonderful it would be if people could speak more openly.
 

Pxlwiz

Returning Pilgrim
Camino(s) past & future
(2017)Camino del Norte/Primativo
(2018)Camino Inglés
#40
Between Villafranca Montes de Oca and San Juan de Ortega on the CF there is a memorial to several hundred locals who were executed by the Nationalists at the outbreak of the Civil War in 1936. It is one of many which have appeared across Spain in the last decade. For a full account of Franco's "cleansing" of Spain, read The Spanish Holocaust by Professor Paul Preston.
The war continues to cast a long, if often unspoken about, shadow.
For another pilgrims take on a Camino with a fair bit of history, both ancient and more modern, read or listen to Tony Kevin's "Walking the Camino, a modern pilgrimage" . It is his account of walking the VdLP with a great deal of background material on Spain and the Camino from a retired Australian diplomat's perspective. The points he makes seem to me to be both poignant and respectful.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino France's (2016) Portuguese 2017
#41
I recently saw an article about this documentary about the silence around the Civil War, and know many people here will be interested to see it. Make sure you have some tissues handy if you watch the trailer, because it's very touching.

And if you reply to this post, please understand that even though it was over 80 years ago, the Civil War remains an extremely sensitive subject in Spain, as well as here on the Forum. It is as it is, and we cannot change that. So any ‘political’ posts whatsoever will cause the tread to be either locked or deleted altogether. For this reason, I kindly ask that you think twice or maybe three times before you hit ‘post,’ keeping the discussion cordial and ‘within bounds.’ But I do hope we can all begin to bring some light into what has been a very dark area by discussing the documentary openly and cordially.
When my wife met me for 2 days in León we stayed in the Parador. Only on the 2nd day did we discover that it had been a prison in the civil war and over 800 people had been executed by Franco’s secret police in this beautiful building. Such a dreadful time and still not really discussed openly in Spain.
 
Camino(s) past & future
2013 (Pamplona to Burgos)
2014 (Burgos to Villafranca del Bierzo)
2015 (Villafranca to Santiago)
2016 (Le Puy to Conques; SJPP To Pamplona)
#42
All around the main square of Salamanca there are "cameos" of characters from Spanish history, including Philip II, Ferdinand and Isabella, Juan Carlos and Sophia and even the Duke of Wellington. My guidebook said that Franco was there, covered in glass to prevent graffiti. I looked for this but couldn't find it.
 
Camino(s) past & future
'
#43
I happened to read about the fosas de la Sierra del Perdón today and about a memorial that was inaugurated as recently as in November 2017. This new memorial site must be quite close to the Camino Francés trail and the metal artwork on the Alto del Perdón. Just enter fosas de la Sierra del Perdón or memorial Sierra del Perdón into Google News or Google Images for more information. On a website is a list of the 93 persons, with their name, age and job, who were murdered in 1936 and 1937 in the area and to whom the memorial is dedicated.

Also quite close and very recent: http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...os-de-dos-victimas-anonimas-del-golpe-de-1936

I had been aware of the memorial right on the CF trail through the Montes de Oca and have visited the graves nearby but I had not been really aware until now that there are so many anonymous burials (if one can even call it that) just about anywhere nor that so much work is being done only now. Thank you for bringing this up, @VNwalking.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#44
Thank you for this information, @Kathar1na!
And to everyone...it's an unexpected side-effect of the thread to know about the whereabouts of many sites near various caminos, where people lost their lives in that terrible time - and not ackowledged openly until quite recently. Unknown by most but not forgotten.
 
#45
All around the main square of Salamanca there are "cameos" of characters from Spanish history, including Philip II, Ferdinand and Isabella, Juan Carlos and Sophia and even the Duke of Wellington. My guidebook said that Franco was there, covered in glass to prevent graffiti. I looked for this but couldn't find it.
When I met @Charrito in the Plaza Mayor in Salamanca, he showed me the now empty medallion where it used to be. The authorities took it down after giving up on trying to keep it safe from vandalism. It was in a corner, right near a passageway out to the street. Facing the ayuntamiento, it was near the passageway to the right.
 

Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata.
#47
We are trying to keep this thread open for purposes of information. Please do not express support for one side or the other of the conflict, or enter into an exchange of details about who did what to whom.

I think that people tend to believe what they feel, and seek out the facts that support their views. My observation is that logic does not play a part when partisanship pushes us into extremes. It is sad because objective information then gets lost.
 
Camino(s) past & future
GR11 Hondarribia - Cabo de Creus
3 X CF SJPP to Finisterre
Camino Mozarabe, VP and Sanabres
#48
http://memoriahistorica.org.es/who-are-we/

For more information associated to this thread, see the attached site. I add this URL only as a means of increasing understanding. There is no area of Spain that is not affected by the Civil War and its aftermath, even today, so it behoves us as pilgrims to be sensitive, respectful and aware.
 
Camino(s) past & future
'
#49
#50
http://memoriahistorica.org.es/who-are-we/

For more information associated to this thread, see the attached site. I add this URL only as a means of increasing understanding. There is no area of Spain that is not affected by the Civil War and its aftermath, even today, so it behoves us as pilgrims to be sensitive, respectful and aware.
Thanks so much for the link. I have walked the Invierno two or three times, and never knew that Priaranza del Bierzo figured so prominently. Does anyone who has walked the Invierno know if there is a memorial or other spot we could visit there?
 
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#51
We are trying to keep this thread open for purposes of information. Please do not express support for one side or the other of the conflict, or enter into an exchange of details about who did what to whom.
Thank you, @Kanga.

And that link is very informative, @Erik Anderson ! Thank you.
I always thought it was Winston Churchill who said “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” but no. The link corrected me. It was a Spaniard - George Santanaya.
This is insanely ironic.

And following my nose from Erik's link I found another review of the movie, with more details of the lives of some of the people it followed.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances, 2015
#52
I always thought it was Winston Churchill who said “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” but no. The link corrected me. It was a Spaniard - George Santanaya.
This is insanely ironic.
This too: Barcelona has a small plaza named in honor of George Orwell, the author of 1984, for his short period of service to the Republican army. A tour guide told us this was the spot for the city's first closed circuit surveillance TV camera.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#53
Barcelona has a small plaza named in honor of George Orwell, the author of 1984, for his short period of service to the Republican army. A tour guide told us this was the spot for the city's first closed circuit surveillance TV camera.
Truth really IS stranger than fiction.
 
Camino(s) past & future
St. Francis Route 2017
#54
Thanks to VNwalking for initiating this thread. I first travelled to Spain in 1970 after Vietnam and resigning my U.S. Marine Corps commission as a regular officer. In the intervening years since then and walking the Camino last year, I have been to Spain no less than 40 times. I can speak to the sensitivity surrounding the Spanish Civil War from all corners of Spain. In small villages, especially, and in some barrios of Madrid—even to this day—some older people glance furtively around to see who is in proximity before beginning to speak softly about anything having to do with this period. I have written about the war over the years because I felt that, in a strange way, I was caught up in it. My guide and friend was the crusty Tomás E. who was well known in England, Canada, and the USA as a field expert on the subject. I have visited most of the battlefields including Hill 666 outside Gandesa in Cataluña. I was incarcerated by the Guardia Civil there and singled out for execution in 1975. While most pilgrims on the Camino are involved, perhaps, with more spiritual thoughts on the purpose of their journey, I carried with me thoughts of the Spanish Civil War. While the Guardia Civil no longer wear the patent leather tricorn, I nevertheless shuddered whenever I saw them on the trail. I paused a long time at the Montes de Oca Memorial to the point where a couple asked me if I was okay. All the books mentioned in this thread I have in my library. Here are a couple more not as well known: Spanish Front—Writers On The Civil War, an anthology edited by Valentine Cunningham that includes works by Orwell, Hemingway, Pound, Dos Passos, Huxley, Eliot, Saint-Exupery, et.al.; and Comrades—Tales of a Brigadista in the Spanish Civil War, by Harry Fisher. My heart races as I scribble this note. I know how fortunate I am.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
#57
I think that the right name for this thread should be "If you are interested in the Spanish Civil War check out this".
(Though this name wouldn´t be precise either because there has been more than one civil war in Spain.)
 
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#59
Camino(s) past & future
GR11 Hondarribia - Cabo de Creus
3 X CF SJPP to Finisterre
Camino Mozarabe, VP and Sanabres
#60
No secret. If you access the site, there should be an option to download the document in PDF. Do let me know if this does not work.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#61
Yes, I tried that, but got the same abstract and a message that I needed to log in to get access, and it's not free.:mad:
 
Camino(s) past & future
GR11 Hondarribia - Cabo de Creus
3 X CF SJPP to Finisterre
Camino Mozarabe, VP and Sanabres
#63
I attach the file in discussion for information and hope it is of interest to a wide audience. As I intimated earlier, this is very much a contemporary issue for all of Spain and, as a foreigner, I try to show respectful interest and remain impartial. Such neutrality is easier if removed from the culture in which these matters are elemental, and perusal of modern Spanish literature may indicate just how important this aspect of Spain's modern history is to current generations.
 

Attachments

Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
St Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
#64
Erik, again...thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion.
I have just come from a very confronting afternoon at the Kaserne Dossin. And while it is about a specific time and place in history, this is essentially a museum about mass violence: how we can come to do the worst to each other, and what needs to happen to prevent that.
What this movie is about - collective silence - was described by the guide as a core element of systems that cause such massive suffering as happened in WWII to millions of innocent people. I could not help but think of Spain and what is beginning to emerge to break the silence.
May openness prevail.

Edit:
The article Erik cites is very good: about the internment/transit camp in Miranda de Ebro (a town on the Vasco Interior), which was started in the CW and was transformed into a camp for the WW, for many foreigners who were either trying to escape Nazi capture (for whatever reason), or from the other side who were trying to avoid allied capture as WWII wound down. Foreigners captured from the International Brigade ended up stuck there for years.

It makes me wonder how many of the more remote camino routes were used by people to cross the mountains into Spain from countries to the North.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
Frances, autumn/winter; 2004, 2005-2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015
#66
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Gillean

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Seven
#68
When I met @Charrito in the Plaza Mayor in Salamanca, he showed me the now empty medallion where it used to be. The authorities took it down after giving up on trying to keep it safe from vandalism. It was in a corner, right near a passageway out to the street. Facing the ayuntamiento, it was near the passageway to the right.
This was the cameo of the Duke of Wellington (2015) It was located in the corner near the Oficina de Tourisma diagonally across the plaza from Franco: IMG_1533_reduced30.JPG

And this was the cameo of Franco (egg spattered) 2015 located near the very excellent Cafe Real: IMG_1538_reduced30.JPG

Both since removed along with quite a few others.
 
Camino(s) past & future
2013 (Pamplona to Burgos)
2014 (Burgos to Villafranca del Bierzo)
2015 (Villafranca to Santiago)
2016 (Le Puy to Conques; SJPP To Pamplona)
#69
I saw Wellington this year.
 
Camino(s) past & future
2013 (Pamplona to Burgos)
2014 (Burgos to Villafranca del Bierzo)
2015 (Villafranca to Santiago)
2016 (Le Puy to Conques; SJPP To Pamplona)
#71
See my blog for 8 April! I didn't notice the astronaut, though.
 
Camino(s) past & future
'
#72
When? He was missing at the end of May. Did they relocate him?
The photo of the empty medallion in this thread is not Wellington's medallion. It's the medallion of one Manuel Godoy and it was removed in 1808 by pickax. See for example http://www.salamanca.com/dos-medallones-picados-en-la-plaza-mayor-de-salamanca/ .The removal of Franco's medallion in June 2017 was a more civilised affair, as numerous news articles testify. It's still intact and kept somewhere and they apparently haven't decided yet what to do with it. There are a few empty medaillons and apparently there are plans to fill two of them soon. I was a bit surprised to read that Wellington's medallion was created as late as 1977 ...

Wellington Salamanca.jpeg

PS: Just noticed this sentence in the article quoted above: En la actualidad, de los 88 medallones que están distribuidos en los cuatro pabellones de la Plaza Mayor, 66 están ya labrados. So only 66 of the 88 medallions contain a carved portrait?
 
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#73
Thank you to VNwalkimg for raising this topic and to all those whose humane comments I have read. Several books I would have recommended have already been suggested.
Like John Crawford Howell I am grateful. I have been fortunate in my (almost) 80 years not to have suffered violence, deportation etc. I know that throughout my lifetime others have not enjoyed such freedoms and that right now this continues. Many comments on this Forum give me hope for the future. Pilgrimage should open the mind........not just wear out the knees!
Re. Eric Blair, George Orwell, I often see Chalk Farm ( aka Animal Farm ) when walking the Downs above but have never seen pigs there!
.
 

oursonpolaire

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002, Toulouse/Aragon 2005, Cami S Jaume/Aragon 2007/9, Mont Saint Michel/Norte/Vadiniense 2011, Norte/Primitivo 2013, Norte/Primitivo 2014. Norte 2015, Cami S Jaume/Castellano-Aragonese 2016
#75
This June I noticed a small monument between Soto del Barco and Muros de Nalon, just before the bridge over the Nalon, to those who were killed on that spot.

Some years ago, stopping in Alfarras, by the Catalan-Aragonese border, I idly mentioned to a waiter at the dusty but hospitable Complex Florida café that the history of the area was interesting; an hour later an older man and three teenage girls turned up. The waiter had passed on my interest and so this history teacher came around to introduce me to his three students who had just completed an oral history project with older women in the neighbourhood. Between our decent French and a mix of broken Castellano and English with the students, I was given a walking tour of the pueblo (including the juderia, which had been closed out in 1412) to where Franco's troops had entered, and where prisoners had been detained. He was justly proud of his students, who had been able to help the older women open up about their experiences before it was too late to do so, and had prepared their testimony for other generations.

Over several Caminos I have heard stories from Spanish pilgrims and locals, which had been handed down to them by their parents and grandparents. These memories appear to permeate Spanish society, and I think still inform (or form) current politics and attitudes.

Those who are interested in the moderately obscure topic of Canadian participation in the international brigades might wish to pick up this very readable book by journalist Michael Petrou (https://quillandquire.com/review/renegades-canadians-in-the-spanish-civil-war/).
 

Gillean

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Seven
#76
The photo of the empty medallion in this thread is not Wellington's medallion. It's the medallion of one Manuel Godoy and it was removed in 1808 by pickax. See for example http://www.salamanca.com/dos-medallones-picados-en-la-plaza-mayor-de-salamanca/ .The removal of Franco's medallion in June 2017 was a more civilised affair, as numerous news articles testify. It's still intact and kept somewhere and they apparently haven't decided yet what to do with it. There are a few empty medaillons and apparently there are plans to fill two of them soon. I was a bit surprised to read that Wellington's medallion was created as late as 1977 ...

View attachment 44288

PS: Just noticed this sentence in the article quoted above: En la actualidad, de los 88 medallones que están distribuidos en los cuatro pabellones de la Plaza Mayor, 66 están ya labrados. So only 66 of the 88 medallions contain a carved portrait?
Oops! My mistake. Although when I zoom in, the profile you have circled as Wellington doesn't really resemble the figure I photographed. Are you sure that's him? In my memory he was closer to the end near where you have shown the ex-Godoy medallion. Regrettably my memory isn't terribly reliable any more.

See my blog for 8 April! I didn't notice the astronaut, though.
I got a bit off track. The astronaut is on the cathedral, not in Plaza Mayor.
 
Camino(s) past & future
'
#77
when I zoom in, the profile you have circled as Wellington doesn't really resemble the figure I photographed. Are you sure that's him?
Yes, absolutely. I researched it carefully. The image is a Google Streetview screenshot, it's not very clear and distorted, but it's the only way I could find to show all the relevant medallions in a row. Among other things, I made use of this overview Programa_iconográfico_de_la_plaza_Mayor_de_Salamanca .

Wellington is number 8, counting from the left corner of the building and not counting the empty medallions.

PS: I must have looked at nearly all the medallions at least twice. A lot of kings. :cool:
 
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Jeff Crawley

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Contemplating yet another "final" camino
Porto to SdC May 2019
#80
Forum members may not know that the CSJ London are based in the Christchurch (Southwark). When I went to the November Hospitalero workshop in 2001 the next room to the workshop was being used for a reunion of veterans of the International Brigade and I was very fortunate to meet Jack Jones (IB and Trade Union leader - it's a VERY left wing/socially aware church!) - the singing of their old songs by veterens, widows and children was very moving. They're all dead now but the memory lingers on: Memorial Trust
 
Camino(s) past & future
April (2015) SJPdP to SdC; Porto to SdC April (2016)
#81
Forum members may not know that the CSJ London are based in the Christchurch (Southwark). When I went to the November Hospitalero workshop in 2001 the next room to the workshop was being used for a reunion of veterans of the International Brigade and I was very fortunate to meet Jack Jones (IB and Trade Union leader - it's a VERY left wing/socially aware church!) - the singing of their old songs by veterens, widows and children was very moving. They're all dead now but the memory lingers on: Memorial Trust
Thank you for this @Jeff Crawley. When I lived in London I recall that a (diminishing) group of International Brigaders would meet every year on the South Bank. Here in Scotland there is a memorial to this nation's IBs, it is to the side of the National Gallery in Edinburgh, near to the steps to the Mound and overlooking Princes street Gardens. For anyone who wants to know more about the Scottish involvement in the conflict Homage to Caledonia: Scotland and the Spanish Civil War by Daniel Gray is worth reading and has an introduction by the late Tony Benn.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances, autumn/winter; 2004, 2005-2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015
Camino(s) past & future
Many, various, and continuing.
#85
An interesting read is "The Cypresses Believe in God," by Gironella, the first Spanish book of fiction set in the run-up to the Civil War permitted to be published in Spain. It's a beautifully written story of a family in Girona, Catalunia, caught up in the conflict. It brings a lot of the history to life, and you'll never view Girona the same, either, once you've read it. If you can find it... it has been out of print for a long time, but your interlibrary loan program can probably find one for you. Most fascinating is that this was a best-seller in Franco's Spain, but it gives a pretty balanced story of both sides.
 
Camino(s) past & future
GR11 Hondarribia - Cabo de Creus
3 X CF SJPP to Finisterre
Camino Mozarabe, VP and Sanabres
#87
I presume many peregrinos are familiar with Gerald Brenan's books about Spain and for those less familiar, this Hispanist wrote a book in 1943, during his enforced exile from Andalucia, which he updated in 1950. The Spanish Labyrinth is his attempt at an objective explanation (in English) of some of the background to the SCW. Despite its age, it's been reprinted many times and may be readily available from sources on the net. Latest ISBN 9780 521 091 077.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy - Burgos, Camino Frances (2012 - 2018)
#88
Thank you for this @Jeff Crawley. When I lived in London I recall that a (diminishing) group of International Brigaders would meet every year on the South Bank.
The International Brigade Memorial trust continues this tradition - it meets at the South Bank memorial (close to the London Eye) on the first Saturday of July to sing, listen to speeches, read poetry, lay flowers and then retire to the pub. Sadly no brigaders have been able to attend for several years. (The only surviving British one that is known about, Geoffrey Servante, is 98.)
 

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