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Latin names on compostelas.

shefollowsshells

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Several alone and with children
There may be something I am missing here. In my understanding all the Cathedral wants is assurance that you have walked the 100km immediately before the tomb of the Apostle (or ridden a bicycle or horse 200km), with spiritual or religious intent. Anything aside from that is irrelevant for the purposes of the Compostela. When I staggered in with two credentials full of stamps from Montserrat up through Catalonia, Aragon etc, or from Mont Saint Michel and onward down the Camino Vadieniense, that was the same for them as the teenager with her buddies sauntering from Sarria-- labourers in the vineyard and all that (Matthew 20). So the 100km is all @miwico72 has to worry about.

As others have suggested the clerk doing the distance certificates may not have tables ready for some of the routes proposed.

To me, the stamped credentials were great souvenirs, in the etymological sense, bringing up memories of where I stayed in Abejar, or the truck stop in Candasnos, and the hilarious Slovak nurses in Tapia, or the WWII veteran from Hamburg outside Los Arcos etc. If @miwico72 is doing memorial pilgrimages for different people, perhaps then his (IMHO complex) plans are perhaps understandable. Otherwise, I just really can't figure out why he wants so many compostelas for one journey. Why not just get the recreativo certificates rather than compostelas? Or do these routes over several years, with a pilgrimage devoted to each Camino? Enjoy the company, enjoy the hospitality of the Spanish and Portuguese people, enjoy the food and wine (and orujo), and count the storks on the steeples.

a PS- I see that @t2andreo has given the technical answers-- I have followed his posts over years on this forum and it is solid info. He has much experience at the Pilgrims' Office and their doings.
I think this is important to note… I arrived to the pilgrims office with five kids in tow, youngest nine years old , second youngest eleven… their packs weighed what mine did, we slept outside almost exclusively and had walked from Le Puy, GR 10 to Norte… and arrived either in Muxia or Santiago at the three month mark exactly! There was no e tea fanfare ( we didn’t expect there to be), but even when the eleven year old had tears in her eyes that her name was spelled wrong no one seemed to recognize the importance of it ( not trashing anyone just stating a simple fact)…. I’ve long since given up the importance of getting the certificate, though we did get ours last week which is different looking ( and colorful) than my previous ones…Certificate of distance means nothing to me… we know what we did…
 
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RRat

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
Planning 2017
I think this is important to note… I arrived to the pilgrims office with five kids in tow, youngest nine years old , second youngest eleven… their packs weighed what mine did, we slept outside almost exclusively and had walked from Le Puy, GR 10 to Norte… and arrived either in Muxia or Santiago at the three month mark exactly! There was no e tea fanfare ( we didn’t expect there to be), but even when the eleven year old had tears in her eyes that her name was spelled wrong no one seemed to recognize the importance of it ( not trashing anyone just stating a simple fact)…. I’ve long since given up the importance of getting the certificate, though we did get ours last week which is different looking ( and colorful) than my previous ones…Certificate of distance means nothing to me… we know what we did…
Are you sure the name was spelled wrong? In my experience the clerks will modify the spelling of the name to meet older Spanish conventions. She now has an official Spanish name. Nothing can be more official than the Compostela certificate. Imagine bringing that up at show and tell at school.
 
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ktchnofdngr

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
September '13, June '16, July '21, And July '22
Are you sure the name was spelled wrong? In my experience the clerks will modify the spelling of the name to meet older Spanish conventions. She now has an official Spanish name. Nothing can be more official than the Compostela certificate. Imagine bringing that up at show and tell at school.
I volunteered at the pilgrims office last summer, and the names are latinized—when there is a Latin form of the name, they use that. I was looking up the Latin name on the document in my computer all day long!

so, my name is Rutham Mariam on all my compostelas(my name is Ruth Marie).
 

LindaH82

Member
Past OR future Camino
None
I volunteered at the pilgrims office last summer, and the names are latinized—when there is a Latin form of the name, they use that. I was looking up the Latin name on the document in my computer all day long!

so, my name is Rutham Mariam on all my compostelas(my name is Ruth Marie).
I was wondering why I was suddenly Lindam on my Compostela! Or at least, Linda with a little squibble at the end that nobody could really figure out what it was, haha. Cool. :)
 
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gollygolly

Active Member
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2000/13/14/15/16/17/18/19/2021
Are you sure the name was spelled wrong? In my experience the clerks will modify the spelling of the name to meet older Spanish conventions. She now has an official Spanish name. Nothing can be more official than the Compostela certificate. Imagine bringing that up at show and tell at school.
My understanding is that there are two styles of certificate that are issued at the Pilgrims Office. For those who walked with a stated purpose of religion / spiritual, the Compostela will be in Latin, and the pilgrims name will be inscribed in Latin.

For those people who walked without declaring that they walks with a religious / spiritual intent, the certificate that the Pilgrims office issues is different, and I believe that the name entered is a Spanish equivalent of the name.

I do not believe that the pilgrims Office entered a name with incorrect spelling, but with a Latin or Spanish version of the original name.
 

shefollowsshells

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Several alone and with children
Are you sure the name was spelled wrong? In my experience the clerks will modify the spelling of the name to meet older Spanish conventions. She now has an official Spanish name. Nothing can be more official than the Compostela certificate. Imagine bringing that up at show and tell at
When in doubt...they often seem to use "am". Sounds like it covers a multitude of unsurety.😅
Yes I wondered too the “ when in doubt”….I’m of the mindframe some names can’t be converted and honestly didn’t want “am” thrown in the back of our names “ just because”. My family is very diverse, names from all over the World, some names i sort of made up… so I’m willing to say they never had a latin form and don’t really want to just have them changed to Latin “ just because”, though I clearly do love tradition, I’m just not convinced throwing “am” on our names is following a tradition.
In our case my daughters name was spelled wrong, a wrong vowel was used ( or written) I think an “e” vs a “y”…. but don’t quote me…
anywho it was just a story, no complaint… just a story to share.
I giggled out loud on this Camino that we just finished, a gentleman who had never walked a camino before was lecturing others who had never Caminoed before about “ THE lady”…” who studies the stamps”…” to make sure you really walked it”… etc… “ the lady”….
His story was there is one lady who has the sole responsibility of this duty and studies our credentials.
Ummmm take a number and wait for you number to flash above and go to the window it directs you too- lol. Oh and now there’s even a QR code involved- lol
With all this said i really would like to volunteer in this office, we had a lovely young lady last week. I asked for our names to be written the way we wanted and she kindly did just that. I made sure my certificates matched this.
My father has no one to pass his name down when he is gone so all of my children have the same middle name, my last name by birth. I wanted this represented on all of our certificates.
No “am” for me….
 

shefollowsshells

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Several alone and with children
My understanding is that there are two styles of certificate that are issued at the Pilgrims Office. For those who walked with a stated purpose of religion / spiritual, the Compostela will be in Latin, and the pilgrims name will be inscribed in Latin.

For those people who walked without declaring that they walks with a religious / spiritual intent, the certificate that the Pilgrims office issues is different, and I believe that the name entered is a Spanish equivalent of the name.

I do not believe that the pilgrims Office entered a name with incorrect spelling, but with a Latin or Spanish version of the original name.
Are you saying you don’t believe in MY CASE there was an incorrect Spelling? I can assure you there was!!!!! Mistakes happen , it was a mistake… no harm done… an 11 year old cried over it, not a huge issue, a first World problem… but I can assure all those wanting to put a spin on it, it was respectfully, my accident, not maliciously spelled wrong… mistakes happen!
and we DID put a purpose for our walk …
no harm done, but no need to try to put spins on this… the story is the story….
 
Past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
I’m just not convinced throwing “am” on our names is following a tradition

@shefollowsshells, I, too, would be curious to know what kind of mistake was on your daughter's Compostela. If it is a name that ends in -am, like say Carolam or Mariam, while the pilgrim's name is Carol/Carola or Mary/Maria, then it is not a mistake. That's the way they do it and it is correct spelling in the given context.

There is some confusion about this in this thread.

Female names ending in -a need an -m in this particular Latin sentence on the Compostela. That is not tradition and not a question of "when in doubt", it is grammar of the language used in this document.

It is just like in English where names require an -s in the following sentence: This one is Maria's Compostela and this one is Thomas's Compostela.

It's just that Latin grammar is different from English grammar.

For me, the Latin text on the Compostela is a gimmick in this day and age, and Latinising pilgrims' names is even more of a gimmick in this day and age. It would be better if the text was in English or in Spanish, then people would at least know what the words say and all names would appear on the Compostela in the same form as on each pilgrim's credential and on the form that each pilgrim fills in beforehand.
 
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My given name is Christine, my compostela is written as Christinam.
 
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Well Thomas' compostela is still correct, too. It seems to be an either or situation, both are ok apparently.
A clear advantage in Latin is that such choices do not exist. Always follow Cicero!
 
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JabbaPapa

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I volunteered at the pilgrims office last summer, and the names are latinized—when there is a Latin form of the name, they use that. I was looking up the Latin name on the document in my computer all day long!

so, my name is Rutham Mariam on all my compostelas(my name is Ruth Marie).
FWIW, that's incorrect.

Vulgate, Book of Ruth :

{2:8} Et ait Booz ad Ruth: Audi filia, ne vadas in alterum agrum ad colligendum, nec recedas ab hoc loco: sed iungere puellis meis

Many names of Hebrew origin are invariable.
 

shefollowsshells

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Several alone and with children
Just to clarify this moved thread ( understandably) appears that I started a thread on this subject, and did not. My post was in response to a post re: multiple compostelas at one office visit. I just wanted to clarify that this post of mine was not intentionally a “ started thread” by me… I wouldn’t have felt a need to start a thread on the subject, though it’s a good topic for education.
 

shefollowsshells

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Several alone and with children
@shefollowsshells, I, too, would be curious to know what kind of mistake was on your daughter's Compostela. If it is a name that ends in -am, like say Carolam or Mariam, while the pilgrim's name is Carol/Carola or Mary/Maria, then it is not a mistake. That's the way they do it and it is correct spelling in the given context.

There is some confusion about this in this thread.

Female names ending in -a need an -m in this particular Latin sentence on the Compostela. That is not tradition and not a question of "when in doubt", it is grammar of the language used in this document.

It is just like in English where names require an -s in the following sentence: This one is Maria's Compostela and this one is Thomas's Compostela.

It's just that Latin grammar is different from English grammar.

For me, the Latin text on the Compostela is a gimmick in this day and age, and Latinising pilgrims' names is even more of a gimmick in this day and age. It would be better if the text was in English or in Spanish, then people would at least know what the words say and all names would appear on the Compostela in the same form as on each pilgrim's credential and on the form that each pilgrim fills in beforehand.
to me it’s a gimmick, and my daughters name was spelled wrong, it didn’t involve the “-am” etc… it was fixed and noted by the office as spelled wrong.
 

shefollowsshells

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Several alone and with children
Oh, I had not realised that they fixed the mistake! I misread your earlier post, sorry.
It wasn’t fixed easily, in fact it took a repeat visit to the office… but it was fixed. The gentlemen put the wrong vowel from what I could tell and spent a lot of time claiming it was his handwriting. I assume the several eyes on it concluded that it was in error as he re did it. It was cute… he lined himself up infront of the certificate and did some stretches as if about to do a task observed by the World- lol
But it made my daughter happy, as it was clearly wrong. I advise pilgrims to write their name very clearly, and to give some thought about how they want it written. Also to give some thought what was their purpose for their walk ( the pilgrimage could evolve that answer), but if you get different certificates based on the answer answering with true purpose might need to be evaluated some.
The certificate has changed, now it colorful even for the religious purpose.
 
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wayfarer

Moderator
Staff member
Past OR future Camino
2012
Just to clarify this moved thread ( understandably) appears that I started a thread on this subject, and did not. My post was in response to a post re: multiple compostellas at one office visit. I just wanted to clarify that this post of mine was not intentionally a “ started thread” by me… I wouldn’t have felt a need to start a thread on the subject, though it’s a good topic for education.
Sorry that it was your post that appears to have started this thread but your reference to a misspelled name brought the other moved posts down the wrong rabbit hole 😊 Hope that explains.
 

shefollowsshells

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Several alone and with children
Sorry that it was your post that appears to have started this thread but your reference to a misspelled name brought the other moved posts down the wrong rabbit hole 😊 Hope that explains.
It does, I just didn’t want it to appear that I was whining and thought it worthy of a topic! Totally understand! I think it’s a good discussion to have, as it appears so many get their certificate and don’t really notice what’s on it ( which I understand)… I think only one of mine has left it’s roll. Though I always have grand ideas of framing the one with my kiddos!
 

Jeff Crawley

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
A "Tourigrino" trip once Covid has passed, so 2023
My understanding is that there are two styles of certificate that are issued at the Pilgrims Office. For those who walked with a stated purpose of religion / spiritual, the Compostela will be in Latin, and the pilgrims name will be inscribed in Latin.

For those people who walked without declaring that they walks with a religious / spiritual intent, the certificate that the Pilgrims office issues is different, and I believe that the name entered is a Spanish equivalent of the name.

I do not believe that the pilgrims Office entered a name with incorrect spelling, but with a Latin or Spanish version of the original name.
The Compostela is in Latin and the names are latinised as is the date. Where no Latin equivalent is available on the computer you can write in whatever is on the pilgrim's credential or ID document.
For names where there are variants in the spelling you just go for the nearest equivalent - there's no Katherine but there is a Catherine = Catherinam.

The non-religious certificates and the Distancia are in Spanish. You write the name as it appears on the Credential, the date goes on in Spanish. (Very few people ask for the non-religious certificate).

I made several mistakes in writing a Latin date on Distancias and Spanish ones on Compostelas - the bins behind the clerk's desks fill up quickly!

The biggest problem I had was with Spanish pilgrims - two given names, the paternal surname (apellido paterno) and the maternal surname (apellido materno). It was easier just to ask for their DNI and copy it from that!
 
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Paladina

old woman of the roads
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Fifty years ago, at the request of the class, my classics teacher, an obese woman unkindly nicknamed plumbum, assigned a Latin name to each student. In the absence of a corresponding name, or in the presence of an infelicitous name, she offered a near-equivalent. Anticipating the inevitable hilarity of my classmates, I opted for an inoffensive translation of my surname in preference to the authentic source from which my forename derives. The name that I had spurned at school because of its unfortunate anglicised pronunciation, especially in a strong regional accent, is the one that appears on my original compostela. I console myself with the thought that it sounds more acceptable when uttered by a native Spanish speaker.
 
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The non-religious certificates and the Distancia are in Spanish
So what is this then (see below)? The person who received this certificate in 2017 wrongly identifies it as Compostela, diploma certifying that you have walked at least the last 100 km of camino.

But that is wrong, she obviously doesn't know what the text actually says.

I've not yet deciphered the whole text, and there does not seem to be a ready made translation online but of this I am certain: The text merely confirms that the holder of the certificate has visited the Cathedral and the tomb of Saint James. Nothing about walking, cycling or horseback riding.

The holder apparently did not tick the "religious" box or the "religious/cultural/spiritual" box on their application form (see her comments beneath the copy).
 

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gollygolly

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
2000/13/14/15/16/17/18/19/2021
Are you saying you don’t believe in MY CASE there was an incorrect Spelling? I can assure you there was!!!!! Mistakes happen , it was a mistake… no harm done… an 11 year old cried over it, not a huge issue, a first World problem… but I can assure all those wanting to put a spin on it, it was respectfully, my accident, not maliciously spelled wrong… mistakes happen!
and we DID put a purpose for our walk …
no harm done, but no need to try to put spins on this… the story is the story….
Apologies if my post was in any way disconcerting, as no offence or 'spins', was intended.

Totally accepting that mistakes happen. We are all human, including the incredible folk at the Pilgrims Office who volunteer their time and give so much for the Camino community.

My post was simply to state that the volunteers at the Pilgrim office who complete the Compostela or the distance certificate, are likely to be taking our ever so familiar name and that name might not be immediately recognisable in its familiar form when read from the Compostela or the distance certificate.

Pleased that the mistake was seen and there was a remedy for your 11 year old prior to your departing SdC.
 
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I made several mistakes in writing a Latin date on Distancias and Spanish ones on Compostelas - the bins behind the clerk's desks fill up quickly!
LOL, I just noticed a similar mistake in the copy posted above: Datum Compostellae die 18th mensis Maii anno Dni 2017.

Oops, that's Latinglish 🤭. It should be just the number 18 without any appendix when you write a date, such as 18 May 2017, in Latin.
 
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Jeff Crawley

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
A "Tourigrino" trip once Covid has passed, so 2023
So what is this then (see below)? The person who received this certificate in 2017 wrongly identifies it as Compostela, diploma certifying that you have walked at least the last 100 km of camino.

But that is wrong, she obviously doesn't know what the text actually says.

I've not yet deciphered the whole text, and there does not seem to be a ready made translation online but of this I am certain: The text merely confirms that the holder of the certificate has visited the Cathedral and the tomb of Saint James. Nothing about walking, cycling or horseback riding.

The holder apparently did not tick the "religious" box or the "religious/cultural/spiritual" box on their application form (see her comments beneath the copy)
"Mea culpa!" :)

Could have sworn it was in Spanish but then we did issue very few of these!

(And it was 3 years ago)



WARNING: Roads are shifted, houses burn, are abandoned or rebuilt; a round world distorts a flat map; man’s memory is fallible; expect not exactness.

(Rubric from 18th century map)
 
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JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Past OR future Camino
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So what is this then (see below)? The person who received this certificate in 2017 wrongly identifies it as Compostela, diploma certifying that you have walked at least the last 100 km of camino.

But that is wrong, she obviously doesn't know what the text actually says.

I've not yet deciphered the whole text, and there does not seem to be a ready made translation online but of this I am certain: The text merely confirms that the holder of the certificate has visited the Cathedral and the tomb of Saint James. Nothing about walking, cycling or horseback riding.

The holder apparently did not tick the "religious" box or the "religious/cultural/spiritual" box on their application form (see her comments beneath the copy).
You're right, it's not a Compostela. It's a certificate of having visited the Cathedral in the manner of a pilgrimage, and a prayer for the person receiving it for corporal and immaterial benefits from the Father through the intercession of the Apostle towards the joy of salvation.

So it's not bad !!
 

MichaelB10398

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
2022
Are you saying you don’t believe in MY CASE there was an incorrect Spelling? I can assure you there was!!!!! Mistakes happen , it was a mistake… no harm done… an 11 year old cried over it, not a huge issue, a first World problem… but I can assure all those wanting to put a spin on it, it was respectfully, my accident, not maliciously spelled wrong… mistakes happen!
and we DID put a purpose for our walk …
no harm done, but no need to try to put spins on this… the story is the story….
I think I would contact the office and kindly request a correction. Briefly explain what happened, offer to pay them for a new, corrected compostela (they will reject the offer), and I think your daughter will get a new compostela that should hopefully make it better.
A child feels deeply about these things and I would go the extra mile to make this right for her. I know those who work in the office also feel the same way.
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
I've not yet deciphered the whole text, and there does not seem to be a ready made translation online
I took that as a personal challenge. :D

LATIN
Capitulum huius Almæ Apostolicæ et Metropolitanæ Ecclesiæ Compostellanæ, omnibus hanc visitationis chartam legentibus notum facit:


hanc Basilicam et Sancti Iacobi Sepulcrum visitasse.

Ei advenienti Capitulum Metropolitanum summo gaudio salutem in Domine dicit, et officio caritatis ductum precatur ut Pater per ipsius Apostoli intercessionem ei trubuere dignetur non tantum bona humani corporis, sed etiam inmateriales peregrinationes opes.

A benedicto Iacobo benedicatur.

Datum Compostellæ die (...) mensis (...) anno Dni (...).


ENGLISH
The Chapter of this Apostolic and Metropolitan Church of Compostela, makes it known to each and every one of those who see this letter of visitation that:


visited this Basilica and the Sepulchre of Santiago.

On this occasion, the Metropolitan Chapter, with great joy, gave him the greeting of the Lord and, moved by the duty of charity, asked, through the intercession of the Apostle, that the Father would deign to grant him not only a good life, but also the immaterial benefits of the pilgrimage.

St. James bless and be blessed.

Given at Compostela, on the (...) day of (...) in the year of (...).
 
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shefollowsshells

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Several alone and with children
I think I would contact the office and kindly request a correction. Briefly explain what happened, offer to pay them for a new, corrected compostela (they will reject the offer), and I think your daughter will get a new compostela that should hopefully make it better.
A child feels deeply about these things and I would go the extra mile to make this right for her. I know those who work in the office also feel the same way.
I’m glad you “ know” that, it’s good to hear that… but I know what we experienced and we literally had to BEG for them to redo it. It was rather shocking! Infact we came back and begged more to get it changed. Honestly it’s water on the bridge and was fixed but not as easily as it should have been. I was there, said respectfully!!!!! It was fixed but not easily! and can assure you that I offered to pay just about anything…
anywho the spins of people “ knowing”… I was there with a pretty large invested interest- lol
 

MichaelB10398

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
2022
I’m glad you “ know” that, it’s good to hear that… but I know what we experienced and we literally had to BEG for them to redo it. It was rather shocking! Infact we came back and begged more to get it changed. Honestly it’s water on the bridge and was fixed but not as easily as it should have been. I was there, said respectfully!!!!! It was fixed but not easily! and can assure you that I offered to pay just about anything…
anywho the spins of people “ knowing”… I was there with a pretty large invested interest- lol
I know humans will make mistakes, but I really am stunned that so many wrong things happened to you and your family. I am sorry about it and wish that it never had happened.
I must have misunderstood you - I did not think they had corrected it and your daughter still had an incorrect document. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I am not interested in making this anymore difficult for you than it already has been. I will bow out of the conversation.
 
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JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Past OR future Camino
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On this occasion,
Upon his/her arrival,
asked, through the intercession of the Apostle, that the Father would
prayed that, through the intercession of the Apostle, the Father would
not only a good life, but also the immaterial benefits of the pilgrimage.
not only the corporeal benefits, but also the immaterial works of his/her pilgrimage.
St. James bless and be blessed.
May he/she be blessed by Saint James.
 
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Past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
the Father would deign to grant him not only a good life
not only the corporal benefits

Thank you for this correction, @JabbaPapa. The mistranslation ("good life" instead of "corporal benefits" for "bona humani corporis ...") stands out like a sore thumb.

Major rule: Does a translation make sense? Granting not only a good life but also the immaterial benefits of the pilgrimage does not make much sense. Granting not only the physical but also the immaterial benefits of the pilgrimage makes a lot more sense. Quite apart from the fact that it fits the grammar and words of the Latin text. :cool:
 
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Jeff Crawley

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
A "Tourigrino" trip once Covid has passed, so 2023
Ii
You're right, it's not a Compostela. It's a certificate of having visited the Cathedral in the manner of a pilgrimage, and a prayer for the person receiving it for corporal and immaterial benefits from the Father through the intercession of the Apostle towards the joy of salvation.

So it's not bad !!
I thought I didn't recognise it. Brain not totally atrophied then! :)

The Distancia is in Spanish and you have write in the start date and point of commencement in Spanish not Latin together with the "official" distance travelled to SdC.
 

Harland2019

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Camino Frances April/May "2019"
When I completed the Camino Frances in 2019 I was asked at the Pilgrims Office if I wanted my name to be written in Latin which I was pleased to accept notwithstanding I didn't walk it for religious reasons. My thought was that it was an ancient trail/pilgrimage and therefore my name in Latin was some recognition of this fact - was it spelled correctly, not a clue but I am proud of it and thankful for the helpers at the office.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
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was it spelled correctly
Mine usually isn't.

Initial J instead of I. And it's a Latin name !! (they don't always get it wrong, my 2014 that I have in hand right now is correct) (like putting "JabbamPapam" instead of Iabbam Papam)

Don't complain about it, and I'm happy with the J/I confusions that they can have.

Less sure about their tendency to use Indian/Arabic numerals in the date rather than the Latin ones !!

"die 30 mensis novembris anno Dni 2021" instead of die XXX mensis novembris anno Dni MMXXI.
 
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Jeff Crawley

Veteran Member
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A "Tourigrino" trip once Covid has passed, so 2023
Mine usually isn't.

Initial J instead of I. And it's a Latin name !! (they don't always get it wrong, my 2014 that I have in hand right now is correct) (like putting "JabbamPapam" instead of Iabbam Papam)

Don't complain about it, and I'm happy with the J/I confusions that they can have.

Less sure about their tendency to use Indian/Arabic numerals in the date rather than the Latin ones !!

"die 30 mensis novembris anno Dni 2021" instead of die XXX mensis novembris anno Dni MMXXI.
Don't forget the Classical Latin Alphabet was A B C D E F G H I K L M N O P Q R S T V X Y Z - no Js, Us or Ws.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
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Don't forget the Classical Latin Alphabet was A B C D E F G H I K L M N O P Q R S T V X Y Z - no Js, Us or Ws.
"Modern" (i.e. Renaissance & later) Latin script does differentiate between u & v, as does the Compostela. The j can be used too, under the understanding that it's just the long form of i. But w is right out !!

The Compostela has ejusdem, Sancti Jacobi (this actually is correct regardless, as it's a Hebrew name) ; and visitasse, inspecturis.

Even for w there are a VERY small number of exceptions. My big Latin dictionary has exactly 7 words starting with w :

wahalis (Waal river) ; walani (Alani, a Gaulish tribe) ; wandali (vandals) ; Wardo (the river Gardon near Narbonne) ; Wasco (Basque) ; Widimerus (an uncle of the Gothic King Theodoric) ; Wisegothi (Visigoths). (interesting that three of these have Camino connections)

But my own Christian name is a straightforwardly Roman one, and so it is incorrect to spell it in Latin with a J. Just saw on another of my Compostelas it was written J, then corrected to I.

As to y, it's not Latin ; but it's used in a few words derived from the Greek, as BTW is z.

The Classical Latin alphabet proper is :

A B C D E F G H I K L M N O P Q R S T V X
 

David Tallan

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
1989
FWIW, that's incorrect.

Vulgate, Book of Ruth :

{2:8} Et ait Booz ad Ruth: Audi filia, ne vadas in alterum agrum ad colligendum, nec recedas ab hoc loco: sed iungere puellis meis

Many names of Hebrew origin are invariable.
Are you trying to suggest that the translators of the Vulgate had better Latin than the officials at the Pilgrim Office who instruct the volunteers and set the practices? Clearly, our knowledge of proper Latin inflections has advanced over the centuries!
 
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Are you trying to suggest that the translators of the Vulgate had better Latin than the officials at the Pilgrim Office who instruct the volunteers and set the practices? Clearly, our knowledge of proper Latin inflections has advanced over the centuries!
☺️

Ruth may be invariable in the Latin of the Vulgate but by the Middle Ages (remember: the eight centuries from about 1100 onwards are our reference frame here :cool:) this female name had developed into a fully fledged declinable Latin word: Rutha, Ruthae, Rutham. Just google it, scholarly texts in Latin from the 16th, 17th, 18th century will turn up, like the one shown below. Whoever fed the database of Latin names at the Pilgrim Office - they had reliable sources, and Ruth Marie aka Rutha Maria (see post #3) can rest assured that everything is spelled correctly on her Compostela.

This author, btw, 1499-1564, was a university professor who specialised in the Old Testament. I think he knew his Latin(s). This is seemingly endless fun ... 😇

Ruthae.jpg
 
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JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
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Are you trying to suggest that the translators of the Vulgate had better Latin than the officials at the Pilgrim Office who instruct the volunteers and set the practices?
I know, crazy idea right ?

And see below -- I'm afraid David is invariable in Latin too ...

texts in Latin from the 16th, 17th, 18th century
... are unreliable in many ways. The Latin of the Compostela is clumsy, for instance, hence our recent threads discussing that text having some to and fro.

Though FWIW, the Latin text of the Certificate for those completing for "spiritual but not religious" reasons isn't that bad.

Latin stopped being mutually intelligible to any degree with the principle Romance languages after about the 14th Century (modern Sard is a part exception) ; so that it became a dead language from the 15th Century onward, though I usually describe it as moribund rather than dead as such. And even some 14th Century Latin is atrociously bad !!

Nevertheless, the 20th Century Nova Vulgata translation has :

2: 8 Et ait Booz ad Ruth: “ Audi, filia: ne vadas ad colligendum in alterum agrum nec recedas ab hoc loco, sed iungere puellis meis.
9 Vide et, ubi messuerint, sequere eas; mandavi enim pueris, ut nemo tibi molestus sit; sed, si sitieris, vade ad sarcinulas et bibe de aqua, quam pueri hauserint ”.


In correct Latin, Ruth, like many other Hebrew origin names, certainly NOT all, is an invariable.

(The Book of Ruth is BTW one of the loveliest Old Testament books, certainly in its Vulgate translation by Jerome)

Matthew, Nova Vulgata version, 20th Century Latin :

1 Liber generationis Iesu Christi filii David filii Abraham.
2 Abraham genuit Isaac, Isaac autem genuit Iacob, Iacob autem genuit Iudam et fratres eius,
3 Iudas autem genuit Phares et Zara de Thamar, Phares autem genuit Esrom, Esrom autem genuit Aram,
4 Aram autem genuit Aminadab, Aminadab autem genuit Naasson, Naasson autem genuit Salmon,
5 Salmon autem genuit Booz de Rahab, Booz autem genuit Obed
>> ex Ruth <<, Obed autem genuit Iesse,
6 Iesse autem genuit David regem.
David autem genuit Salomonem ex ea, quae fuit Uriae,
7 Salomon autem genuit Roboam, Roboam autem genuit Abiam, Abia autem genuit Asa,
8 Asa autem genuit Iosaphat, Iosaphat autem genuit Ioram, Ioram autem genuit Oziam,
9 Ozias autem genuit Ioatham, Ioatham autem genuit Achaz, Achaz autem genuit Ezechiam,
10 Ezechias autem genuit Manassen, Manasses autem genuit Amon, Amon autem genuit Iosiam,
11 Iosias autem genuit Iechoniam et fratres eius in transmigratione Babylonis.


Invariable proper names in bold, variable proper names underlined. A few names, notably those ending -am, -em, -es in the Nominative are not clearly invariable simply from their Accusative form being identical, and so are neither given in bold nor underlined. Also note that the woman's name Thamar, invariable here, does have a variable cognate Tamara, which should be preferred on a Compostela, as the spelling Thamar is found only in the Vulgate and nowhere else. Also take note that Jacob, James, also has a clearly established variable cognate, including in the Vulgate : Acts {1:13} Et cum introissent in cœnaculum, ascenderunt ubi manebant Petrus, et Ioannes, Iacobus, et Andreas, Philippus, et Thomas, Bartholomæus, et Matthæus, Iacobus Alphæi, et Simon Zelotes, et Iudas Iacobi. ; which should obviously be preferred (though the name Jacob, as the Patriarch, should probably be invariable on a Compostela). As to Zara, it's the men's name here, not the women's one ; which is a variable.

(Don't particularly like that Nova Vulgata translation BTW, which mistakenly imposes modern punctuation rules as semantically limiting elements, whereas one of the main reasons why the Vulgate is such a great translation is that its lack of punctuation other than its arrangement in verses allowed St Jerome and his team of translators a far better ability to preserve the double or treble meanings in the original Hebrew and Greek. Not happy either with its use of modern Grammar rules from contemporary Romance languages.)
 
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