Manners of Cyclists and Walkers (moved from another thread)

[Penny Kingma]

I'm sorry to say I found cyclists to be a great hazard while walking from St Jean to Santiago this summer. The speeds they zoomed by alarming. I assisted one as an ambulance was called and had to make the difficult journey to help. He flew down a hill around a blind corner almost hitting a pilgrim walking. She flew for the ditch to avoid being hit by the cyclist. I too took the ditch a few times. No ear buds in...by the time you hear them they are on you. Very dangerous combination I didn't expect.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

This looks like a job for the Knights Templar.

 

[Mike Trebert]

I'm sorry to say I found cyclists to be a great hazard while walking from St Jean to Santiago this summer. The speeds they zoomed by alarming. I assisted one as an ambulance was called and had to make the difficult journey to help. He flew down a hill around a blind corner almost hitting a pilgrim walking. She flew for the ditch to avoid being hit by the cyclist. I too took the ditch a few times. No ear buds in...by the time you hear them they are on you. Very dangerous combination I didn't expect.

How hard is it to require cyclists to use the roads instead of walking paths? Walkers can be elderly, or very young, or infirm, etc. OR, maybe they just want to smell the roses! All cyclists are pretty fit, almost by definition, and therefore at an advantage. Also, cyclists are always faster than walkers.

Maybe if we all agree to lodge personal statements of complaint regarding personal experience/incidents. Include date and location, make it sound serious, even if one doesn't have the culprit's name.

Can anyone suggest where to lodge complaints? A list of Camino-related local government offices, perhaps. A forum member might supply a Spanish/English text file so only a signature and contact info need be added.

If enough people are interested, I could organise an online petition as a first step. Such a petition needn't be affiliated with this forum. Or is that still a sufficiently political activity to be prohibited here?

Let me know and I'll do what I can.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

How hard is it to require cyclists to use the roads instead of walking paths?.

And who is going to police this? The Guardia Civil?

 

[Mike Trebert]

And who is going to police this? The Guardia Civil?

No clue. I'm suggesting an initial step and trying to be positive. If there's a strong, concerted effort (a petition) then someone might listen. I'm not going to drag my old boney xss through toxic doubt and negativity.

Mike

 

[Mark Lee]

The various entities in charge in Spain simply need to make a decision that the traditional walking path needs to be restricted to foot traffic only and signs posted along the Way stating such. That would eliminate probably 90% of the cyclists from using the path. There will always be the small percentage that blows it off, but 10% is better than 100%. No real need for the coppers to bust out the citation books for the few that ignore the law/rule. Not worth it.
The bicyclists would have to adjust and set up their own route to Santiago.
I don't think it would ever be done because so many people bicycle the Camino now and I think there would be hesitation in discouraging anyone from doing the Camino simply from and economic impact standpoint.

 

[Mike Trebert]

Sooner or later someone will be badly hurt or even killed. Not an impossibility given the very uneven usable pathway here and there. I've walked the CF only once but in future I will always avoid Sarria to SDC because of traffic density, particularly heavy bicycle traffic on that stretch. My next walk is Italy - quieter, less traffic than Spanish Caminos, but a few bicycles, I gather.

 

[trecile]

I was surprised to have a cyclist come up behind me as I walked to Hospital de Orbigo, where the trail was only wide enough for a single walker, with vegetation on each side. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a bike path.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

My memories of bad encounters with bicycles were that most were on dirt roads in the meseta, public roads that they had legal access to. Here the cyclists would go bombing down a hill to get momentum to get up the next. I'm assumming that they would aim to go around the walkers as there was usually room. However, if there was no warning from a cyclist (or a very late warning) by the time the walkers were aware of the speeding cyclist they weren't sure whether to dodge to the right or to the left or to stay where they were.

In the case of these meseta roads if the walkers stayed on the left facing the (non-existant)approaching traffic and cyclists stayed on the right there would likely be few incidents. It's my memories again but they are telling me that the times I had my scares I was in the middle of the road or on the right.

 

[Penny Kingma]

If the walking pilgrim had been hit instead of taking the ditch I'm sure she would've been seriously injured or worse. I saw the speed he flew by me and I screamed slow down.... he laughed. The person he almost hit was a doctor from Columbia....she never walked with ear buds. The cyclist 15 from Korea. The person that called for help a man from France. And me a Canadian doing what I could to offer comfort and aid. So the world of pilgrims coming together in a very different way. All just need to be encouraged to work together and forward compationatly.

 

[Bradypus]

My next walk is Italy - quieter, less traffic than Spanish Caminos, but a few bicycles, I gather.

If you are considering the Via Francigena in Italy then my experience in 2015 is that there were very few cyclists in the off-road sections. Most of the Italian cyclists were on the minor roads on racing machines with razor-thin wheels which wouldn't have survived for more than a km or two off-road. Plenty of room to pass each other safely whenever we met.

 

[Mike Trebert]

If you are considering the Via Francigena in Italy then my experience in 2015 is that there were very few cyclists in the off-road sections. Most of the Italian cyclists were on the minor roads on racing machines with razor-thin wheels which wouldn't have survived for more than a km or two off-road. Plenty of room to pass each other safely whenever we met.

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure whether I'll make it this year but it's next on my list. I've never been to Italy so walking through Tuscany and into Rome seems irresistible.

Buen Camino, - Mike

 

[Saint Mike II]

How hard is it to require cyclists to use the roads instead of walking paths? Walkers can be elderly, or very young, or infirm, etc. OR, maybe they just want to smell the roses! All cyclists are pretty fit, almost by definition, and therefore at an advantage. Also, cyclists are always faster than walkers.

In case you had not noticed the vast majority of the Camino is on public roads. And even on the walking trails these are still public lands. So until the government's, both national & regional, tell me I can no longer do this I will continue to do so!

 

[Mike Trebert]

EXCUSE Me, but who the b***dy hell are you to tell me I can ride my bike on the PUBLIC ROADS of rural Spain. Yes that's right in case you had not noticed the vast majority of the Camino is on public roads. And even on the walking trails these are still public lands. So until the government's, both national & regional, tell me I can no longer do this I will continue to do so!

If I had a bike I wouldn't ride it on walking paths. You ride your bike wherever you like.

 

[William Marques]

I ride and have cycled the CF, VdlP and VF. There is rightly an outcry against inconsiderate cyclists but there is no need to tar all cyclists with the same brush, just as some pilgrims litter and do not care about the mess they create is no reason to tar all pilgrims with the same brush.

My personal point of view is to cycle the path where easily negotiated but to avoid it in the mountains where it is often single-track.

BTW on the VF unless things have changed much of the route is on roads and tracks on which cars and lorries will consider they have priority so I would worry more about them than bikes.

 

[Kanga]

I don't think that cyclists and pedestrians are compatible, anywhere. But separating them involves building specific bike paths (because bikes and cars are not compatible either) and a whole lot of new infrastructure, and who can afford that? Apart from overdevelopment, which I don't like either. So we will just have to find ways to co-exist.

It was not a problem when there were only a few walkers and only a few cyclists. It is another issue that has arisen because of the popularity of the Camino Frances.

 

[wayfarer]

I met many cyclists on the Camino in '12 and '13. In 2012 I felt really sorry for them as the weather was pretty bad for a lot of it and they had to haul their bikes through miles of mud/clay. 99% of them were considerate and called out well in advance or rang their bells (those who had them) and we stepped out of their way as we would have done for faster walkers, but there are always a small few, as there are walkers, who are not considerate, or just plain ignorant, but you will get that in all walks of life.
The Camino is for everyone, share it with an open heart.

 

[Bradypus]

99% of them were considerate and called out well in advance or rang their bells (those who had them)

You must have been very lucky in your meetings. My experience has been that the majority do not ring bells or call out warnings. I assume this is because they believe that the mechanical noise of the bike will be sufficient advance warning. Any number of things such as a stiff breeze, the noise of falling rain, or the rustling of a rain hood can be enough to mask the sound of an approaching bike and give no opportunity to step aside. There are also occasions when the path is too narrow to allow passing and there is no safe place for the walker to move aside. I have been in such situations where cyclists have continued at speed nevertheless knocking me off the trail. On one occasion I was deliberately kicked off the edge of a path to fall several feet down a steep and rocky embankment.

@Saint Mike II As things stand at the moment I acknowledge that you and your fellow cyclists have the right to pedal the off-road sections of the Camino. I would be far happier if you did not do so.

 

[William Marques]

As things stand at the moment I acknowledge that you and your fellow cyclists have the right to pedal the off-road sections of the Camino. I would be far happier if you did not do so.

I might equally say - As things stand at the moment I acknowledge that you and your fellow walkers have the right to walk the off-road sections of the Camino. I would be far happier if you did not do so.

Let's get over this bickering and share with an open heart as wayfarer says.

 

[Bradypus]

Let's get over this bickering and share with an open heart as wayfarer says.

Toleration means accepting that others may think, speak, and act differently to ourselves. I do not think that it means that we cannot disagree within courtesy and reason. I have explicitly stated that I recognise the right of cyclists to use the Camino Frances paths. Is it necessary to pretend to be happy with the status quo?

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

Ah the vagaries of shared paths I am a walker/hiker/cyclist/dog trainer/horse-rider and use paths designated for all the aforesaid activities so can truly view the problem from every side of the argument. In my experience shared paths work for no-one because as both @wayfarer and @William Marques note consideration for our fellow travellers is the key to co-camino-ation and each group moves in its own microcosm.

• When I am walking or hiking, I want to amble along and enjoy the tranquillity of nature with my fellow walkers without fear of having a cyclist or, more common these days, a motorbike hit me.
• When I am cycling, I want to pedal along and enjoy the ride without having to dodge obstacles and ring my bell every 2 minutes.
• When I'm training dogs, I want to be able to let them run and enjoy their outing without being called back every 2 minutes or restricted to on lead for the entire walk.
• When I am riding a horse... I just don't out on paths anymore as it is too dangerous for all sorts of reasons.

As you see - totally non-conducive to shared paths but as @Kanga notes, separating them is expensive and usually impractical and doesn't solve the problem totally anyway. (I must mention Abu Dhabi that has amazingly glorious side by side paths separated by planters - had to include a photo)



Otherwise on some paths here we have the give way triad which is also often found overseas. Perhaps adding this to guidebooks and maps may help:

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Just a BTW, I don't always dodge bicyclists. On the Alto de Mostelares after Castrojerez I caught up to one to give him a a helping push for a ways on his climb up.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

Problem is, those who don't care about any other than themselves will ignore the sign , and also any laws or rules put in place. We all actually know the police cannot be everywhere at all times. I find that a hiking pole stuck out at the "wrong" angle makes bad cyclists pull up, swerve, swear etc much quicker than anything else. ( Arm out from the body at waist height with sick pointing upwards and forwards so they hit the flat of the stick rather than being impaled....) Those that swear always cause me to trip and stumble my big boots onto their spokes.

Much like, as a cyclist on roads a decent carbon fibre rod at right angles to the bike with a small flag or flashing light causes cars to give you some reasonable space, wagons on the other hand........

Unfortunately it's that 'don't care' percentage that exasperate the rest of us and are impervious to education, laws or rules. While not condoning your solution I have also used it often and to effect on steep downhill tracks when desperate measures are required to protect life and limb.

Recent changes to our road rules allowed cyclists of all ages to ride on the footpaths here at the same speed as designated for the adjacent road ie 50kph in suburbia. You can imagine how well that brilliant little idea has worked. It has been followed by a prolonged education campaign in the media on giving way to pedestrians. I just use my hiking poles when necessary as described above.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I find that a hiking pole stuck out at the "wrong" angle makes bad cyclists pull up, swerve, swear etc much quicker than anything else. ( Arm out from the body at waist height with sick pointing upwards and forwards so they hit the flat of the stick rather than being impaled....)

You could also attach a skull and crossbones flag to the pole at the middle.

 

[Penny Kingma]

I'm sure no one is complaining of the considerate cyclist. Honesty is what we need on this forum. I read of dogs dangers and bed bugs and flashers to worry about before I left for my much anticipated Camino. My greatest worry once I started and relief once I'd arrived in Santiago was getting run over by a cyclist. Not on a road...but on paths. In areas where cyclist are instructed to use roadways and don't. I am an avid cyclist at home so understand the concerns. I would never think of flying down a trail or sidewalk meant for walkers expecting them to flee for safety. At times I felt to be walking in the middle of a off trail cyclist race. The cyclist that wasn't taking in the Camino but the speed/time challenge. The bragging rights to say they cycled the rustic walking trail instead of the areas of designated cyclist trail.
Yes we need more tolerance, compassion and honesty....if safety and enjoyment is to be experienced by all pilgrims. Hugs

 

[Anemone del Camino]

If I had a bike I wouldn't ride it on walking paths. You ride your bike wherever you like.

The problem is that the Camino is not a "walking path" but a path. As annoying and dangerous as some cyclists maybe with their high speed, no warning and passing so close to people, they are on the path - the only path, the Camino.

 

[wayfarer]

The bragging rights to say they cycled the rustic walking trail instead of the areas of designated cyclist trail.

As Anemone said, there is not a walking path, but a path. Many of the cyclists you will meet aren't even pilgrims, but cyclists out for a ride on paths through their own area and who encounter pilgrims sharing the same path on their way to Santiago.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

As Anemone said, there is not a walking path, but a path. Many of the cyclists you will meet aren't even pilgrims, but cyclists out for a ride on paths through their own area and who encounter pilgrims sharing the same path on their way to Santiago.

You make an excellent point. Not only is there 1 Camino path, but it is the Camino that passes through city, villages paths using paths established well before anyone started painting arrows for pilgrims.

 

[Anniesantiago]

And who is going to police this? The Guardia Civil?

The police and the pilgrims if it were a law

 

[Anniesantiago]

The bikes are not only dangerous to walkers but they tear the heck out of the trail.

 

[Penny Kingma]

Im sorry but there are areas that cyclist are pointed to the road not the trail.

 

[Penny Kingma]

Policing shouldn't be necessary....common sense should apply

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I have never seen a walker run into a cyclist from behind, but I have seen cyclists run into walkers from behind...

 

[Saint Mike II]

The various entities in charge in Spain simply need to make a decision that the traditional walking path needs to be restricted to foot traffic only and signs posted along the Way stating such. That would eliminate probably 90% of the cyclists from using the path. There will always be the small percentage that blows it off, but 10% is better than 100%. No real need for the coppers to bust out the citation books for the few that ignore the law/rule. Not worth it.
The bicyclists would have to adjust and set up their own route to Santiago.
I don't think it would ever be done because so many people bicycle the Camino now and I think there would be hesitation in discouraging anyone from doing the Camino simply from and economic impact standpoint.

Not going to happen. Spain is, after France & Italy, one of the most "cycle mad" countries. So if the regional governments tried to ban cyclist from what are, in the vast majority public roads you would (imho) see much uproar. How many farm vehicles (small trucks/suv, tractors) do you see on these roads??
Yes when cyclists choose to ride the "walking path" sections they should ride at a speed that allows them to stop and/or avoid the walking pilgrims. Now whilst I will agree some cyclists do not show the proper respect to the walkers, the last time I looked the number of pilgrims being killed by cyclist was almost zero, cars and trucks account for the majority of deaths, and these deaths are on public roads or crossing major roads when it is definitely unsafe.

 

[Mark Lee]

The bikes are not only dangerous to walkers but they tear the heck out of the trail.

They do, do that. That section through the woods just before Roncesvalles is proof of the damage. As it ruts out more and more, the cyclists just keep expanding the mud holes as they detour around to the left or the right. Some parts are pretty bad, especially after a rain.
Like any path, anywhere, either it's a walking path or it's a wheeled path. You really cannot have both and expect good results. Bicycles are invasive to walkers. Walkers are not invasive to bicyclists.

 

[Saint Mike II]

OK Moderators - time to call a halt on this one before it becomes "to personal" . As a responsible cyclists (and also a walker) I feel greatly offended by some of these "totally out of all proportion" comments.

 

[Penny Kingma]

Saint Mike II.
As previously stated I witnessed a very close call. It's just a matter of time that someone is seriously hurt or killed. When crossing or walking on a public roadway you expect traffic of all kinds. While walking on rough, narrow, steep trails you don't anticipate a cyclist flying by. Just because someone doesn't put up a sign, make a law or physically remove them doesn't make it correct. I've raised five children and taught them right from wrong. Taught them dangers to stay away from and respect of others. The hope is that when a wrong they come across in life I haven't educated them about common sense will take over. Until then I'd suggest walking pilgrims pickup a little rear view mirror you clip to your sun glasses. I use one when I bike at home...never bike without for safety while sharing the road. Had I known of this hazard I would've packed it.
HugsMike

 

[Mark Lee]

ha ha....I think it's just a given, for the most part walkers aren't going to care much for bicycles sharing the narrow confines of the Camino walking path (I know I have quietly cussed out my share of them )...I hope that doesn't come as a surprise to anybody.

 

[Mike Trebert]

Politics. Religion. Footwear. Walking poles. Phone cameras. Bicycles.

Next I suggest cupcakes vs muffins.

 

[wayfarer]

This issue has been debated many times on the forum and will most likely be debated again in the future and it is probable that nothing will change on the Camino, the important thing to remember is not to get personal in the posts and respect the fact that others may have differing points of view.

 

[t2andreo]

I speak from direct experience in this matter. In 2013 I was forced to leap off the trail by a pair of speeding day-tripper mountain bikers hurtling down Alto de Perdon, west of Pamplona. While there is NOW a cable to protect people from falling off the trail, in 2013 there was none.

I instinctively leaped to the right, realizing at the last moment that there was nothing but air there. Here, the path drops off nearly vertically. I would have likely died, but for the last nano-second action by the second biker. He grabbed my rucksack strap just before I sailed over the edge. My next memory was being on my knees at the edge of the precipice, vomiting.

Now, after four Caminos, and turning 64 this year, my knees, ankles and hips are strongly "suggesting" to me that I consider biking my next Camino instead of walking. I have started sorting this all out.

What I can tell you is that I have no intention of using the footpaths if on a bicycle. My initial plans are to use roads the entire way. My relating research is about the best way to do this.

I am presently struggling with the costs of bringing a bike as luggage to and from the US, versus renting an appropriate hybrid style bike there. All suggestions and recommendations heartily welcomed. Feel free to PM me.

I have no fear of traffic on the N-120 or equivalent roads.

When I eventually do this, I may be dressed like a neon-colored fruit bowl, and flashing like a bevy of police replying to a break-in at their favorite donut shop, but incoming motorists WILL see me. They may still hit me from behind, but that is what my St. Christopher medal is for.

I hope this helps.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I instinctively leaped to the right,

Expanding on I said about whether to dodge to the right, left or stay put - you have no idea of whether the oncoming cyclists or from a right-hand driving country or a left-hand driving one and which way they instinctively want to go.

I am presently struggling with the costs of bringing a bike as luggage to and from the US, versus renting an appropriate hybrid style bike there. All suggestions and recommendations heartily welcomed. Feel free to PM me.

Tom, I first thought why bother with the hassle of shipping and just rent (it is fairly cheap) but then I remember you describing yourself as a big guy. It might be hard to find a rental your size. Just a thought here, fly to Amsterdam and buy a second-hand bike; the Dutch are pretty tall.

 

[Wiley Buckhorn]

I speak from direct experience in this matter. In 2013 I was forced to leap off the trail by a pair of speeding day-tripper mountain bikers hurtling down Alto de Perdon, west of Pamplona. While there is NOW a cable to protect people from falling off the trail, in 2013 there was none.

I instinctively leaped to the right, realizing at the last moment that there was nothing but air there. Here, the path drops off nearly vertically. I would have likely died, but for the last nano-second action by the second biker. He grabbed my rucksack strap just before I sailed over the edge. My next memory was being on my knees at the edge of the precipice, vomiting.

Now, after four Caminos, and turning 64 this year, my knees, ankles and hips are strongly "suggesting" to me that I consider biking my next Camino instead of walking. I have started sorting this all out.

What I can tell you is that I have no intention of using the footpaths if on a bicycle. My initial plans are to use roads the entire way. My relating research is about the best way to do this.

I am presently struggling with the costs of bringing a bike as luggage to and from the US, versus renting an appropriate hybrid style bike there. All suggestions and recommendations heartily welcomed. Feel free to PM me.

I have no fear of traffic on the N-120 or equivalent roads.

When I eventually do this, I may be dressed like a neon-colored fruit bowl, and flashing like a bevy of police replying to a break-in at their favorite donut shop, but incoming motorists WILL see me. They may still hit me from behind, but that is what my St. Christopher medal is for.

I hope this helps.

Try bikeiberia for a rental mtn bike. I rented a bike from them in June of last year and it was of good quality, with proper panniers, helmet, tools, spare tube, etc, and delivered and picked up at my start and destination. Much less expensive than bringing a bike from the US.

Yes, I saw some rude bicyclists on the Camino, and they were less friendly off the bike as well. We need to politely interact with them. Some are locals, and some just aren't aware of the problems they cause.

 

[Rioppo]

I am heartbroken. My plans to bike the Camino April/May 2017 are on hold. My feet do not permit me to hike long distances any longer, but I'm able to cycle long distances without difficulty. I had planned to cycle the Camino Frances (a shorter version) and looked forward to meeting warm, happy, like-minded cyclists and pilgrims along the way. I wondered if there is a divide between the cyclists and walkers, and I see there is. Needles to say, I am thoughtful about my impact on any trail and don't think I can handle the negative energy that may follow me.

 

[Micah26]

I am heartbroken. My plans to bike the Camino April/May 2017 are on hold. My feet do not permit me to hike long distances any longer, but I'm able to cycle long distances without difficulty. I had planned to cycle the Camino Frances (a shorter version) and looked forward to meeting warm, happy, like-minded cyclists and pilgrims along the way. I wondered if there is a divide between the cyclists and walkers, and I see there is. Needles to say, I am thoughtful about my impact on any trail and don't think I can handle the negative energy that may follow me.

Rioppo,
Please do not base your plans on a few comments made here. As with most things people have strong opinions and express them. I think if people can be aware of each other especially when it comes to issues of safety we all get along so much better. I am sure were you to make this pilgrimage you would find like minded people traveling in whatever way they can. Life is a journey not an end as is this pilgrimage. Buen Camino!

 

[Saint Mike II]

Saint Mike II.
As previously stated I witnessed a very close call. It's just a matter of time that someone is seriously hurt or killed. When crossing or walking on a public roadway you expect traffic of all kinds. While walking on rough, narrow, steep trails you don't anticipate a cyclist flying by. Just because someone doesn't put up a sign, make a law or physically remove them doesn't make it correct. ... The hope is that when a wrong they come across in life I haven't educated them about common sense will take over. Until then I'd suggest walking pilgrims pickup a little rear view mirror you clip to your sun glasses. I use one when I bike at home...never bike without for safety while sharing the road. Had I known of this hazard I would've packed it.
HugsMike

Sorry don't want your hugs. I just want you to moderate your views. Not all cyclists are like the one you "ran into". I found motor cyclists on the "old roman road" (after Fromister?) had a lot less respect for the walkers.
The one aspect I will agree on, cyclists in organised groups need educating about their interaction with walking pilgrims, break their groups into threes and fours, rather than 15 all at once.

Again I call on the moderators - lock this one!

 

[Saint Mike II]

I am heartbroken. My plans to bike the Camino April/May 2017 are on hold. My feet do not permit me to hike long distances any longer, but I'm able to cycle long distances without difficulty. I had planned to cycle the Camino Frances (a shorter version) and looked forward to meeting warm, happy, like-minded cyclists and pilgrims along the way. I wondered if there is a divide between the cyclists and walkers, and I see there is. Needles to say, I am thoughtful about my impact on any trail and don't think I can handle the negative energy that may follow me.

Hola - please don't these "anti-cycle" posters stop your plans. You will be welcomed by the vast majority of walking pilgrims. Just make sure your bike has a bell, use it when appropriate, give the walkers a wide berth. Enjoy your Camino.

 

[Tincatinker]

Oh well. Here we go again. There are few, but there are a few, topics on this forum that bring out the best and the worst in members. One of those topics is the root of this thread - the occasional conflict between hikers and bikers. Posts so far in this thread clearly demonstrate the conflict rooted in our everyday freedoms - to walk or to ride without hinderance or fear. The majority of members of this forum are hikers. The valiant few bikers try to posit their views even knowing they likely to be slapped down, derided or even derailed for their temerity in believing that they too have the right to hacer camino.

Anecdotes posted here demonstrate beyond refutation that hikers and bikers can only mix in comfort where there is mutual respect and understanding and that the absence of either of these virtues will lead to conflict, distress and harm. I know I'm guilty enough of some misanthropic (cyclanthropic?) comments on bikers. Nevertheless Camino remains as a place where we must all confront ourselves and our behaviours, our expectations and desires.

I'm reluctant to lock this thread despite @Saint Mike II 's plea mainly because so far members have remained civil in their disagreements. My own view is that much of the problematic bike traffic comes from the 'grupos deportivos / les sportifs' who will never read this forum. Members may wish to consider how we might reach out to those groups and achieve mutually beneficial changes in behaviour rather than resorting to legislation, signs and sanctions.

 

[Penny Kingma]

Sorry don't want your hugs. I just want you to moderate your views. Not all cyclists are like the one you "ran into". I found motor cyclists on the "old roman road" (after Fromister?) had a lot less respect for the walkers.
The one aspect I will agree on, cyclists in organised groups need educating about their interaction with walking pilgrims, break their groups into threes and fours, rather than 15 all at once.

Again I call on the moderators - lock this one!

Mike I don't dislike cyclists as stated I'm one myself. I just wanted to make new pilgrims heading out on their first Caminos aware. I wasn't this past summer and was startled by it. I shared stories and meals with many cyclists during my Camino as friends all making our way to Santiago.

 

[Mike Trebert]

Cyclists are in the minority so we walkers have a responsibility to be objective. That said, some cyclists' posts here seem thin-skinned. We are not out to get you, some of us simply don't like where you ride. You could be the nicest person on the planet, but on the bike you tend to become a libertarian. My definition of libertarian: a person who cares a lot about personal freedom, just not everybody's personal freedom.

The issue seems pretty simple to me. Where I live, bicycles don't ride on the sidewalk. Yes they have a difficult and dangerous time on the roads much of the time, and that's unfair. Wheels - road, walking path/sidewalk - feet. There are indeed many places on the CF where signs direct bicycles off the path onto the road. In past centuries, "they" didn't have miraculously smooth paved roads and hi-tech bicycles, if they did they'd certainly have been riding their bicycles. On the road.

I'm not a Christian so it's not difficult for me to be unchristian and not bend over backwards to accommodate "all peregrinos". If there's a problem, don't convince yourself that it doesn't exist out of so-called love and tolerance.

Read the OP again, folks. That's what we're supposed to respond to, I gather.

 

[AJ]

The issue seems pretty simple to me. Where I live, bicycles don't ride on the sidewalk.

They did when I lived in Sydney. They do where I live now.

 

[Kanga]

@AJ no longer. Driving a vehicle along a footpath is against the law in NSW. The exception is for children on bicycles under the age of 12 (and an accompanying adult), and special signposted shared pathways. Under the laws in NSW a bicycle is considered a vehicle and must obey the road rules.

I think there is confusion between roads and footpaths. The camino is a mixture.

 

[C clearly]

My plans to bike the Camino April/May 2017 are on hold... I... don't think I can handle the negative energy that may follow me.

I sure hope that your confidence in your own courtesy and good sense is not that delicate. Negative energy won't follow you if you are a warm, happy cyclist who is considerate of others.

 

[RelEngOz]

Two things for cyclists and walkers sharing the same path.
Cyclists need to give adequate audible warning that they are about to pass. A bell would be perfect as it is distinctive and travels a long distance. But many cyclists refuse to have a bell mounted on the bike because they don't regard it as "de rigueur". In Australia it is legal necessity but not enforced heavily. My advice - get a bell just for the Camino, and suck it up. Your fellow travellers would be much happier all round.

The other thing is a standard for walkers to move either left or right when a bike is approaching. We all come from different countries where either may apply. Maybe a few signs, say once every 50 km, to advertise the Spanish standard would help.?

Most cyclists during my Camino did the right thing although few had bells. Walkers who are plugged into electronic music are the cause of their own problem. It's both a legal requirement and plain sense not to walk across a road with plugs in your ears. Same should apply on a busy shared path.

 

[C clearly]

Sad that money now is a issue there also.

Where is this not the case?

The other is a standard for walkers to move either left or right when a bike is approaching. We all come from different countries where either may apply. Maybe a few signs, say once every 50 km, to advertise the Spanish standard would help.?

The problem is that "when a bike is approaching" it is approaching from the back so the walker (even without ear buds, etc.) will be startled by a sudden up-close warning. My jumping reaction is hard to control in those circumstances. I try not to jump anywhere, and need to trust the cyclist to avoid me, just as they would avoid a tree or a cow in the middle of the path. The cyclist has the full view and is presumably in control of the vehicle.

 

[Montana Jayne]

Cyclist were the greatest hazard to me on the camino. I had 5 close calls when it was only by the grace of God that I wasn't creamed. At 69 that felt like a real danger to me. I was never listening to music so no earbuds. And in my close calls they NEVER gave any warning. No bells, no yells! I totally disliked cyclists on the camino. They are so rude and self-absorbed.

 

[peregrina2000]

I think this is a debate with no resolution. On the camino, I am a walker and I lash out at bikes. At home, I ride a bike as my primary form of transportation, and I lash out at cars. The problem is simply that there are a lot of rude inconsiderate people in the world and on the Camino. On the Camino, rude walkers can't cause as much havoc as rude bikers, so we think there are more rude cyclists. But as a cyclist for 10 months a year, I can assure you that cyclists are not the rudest travelers.

 

[Marbe2]

I am a walker and have encountered this problem with cyclists everywhere...not just the Camino! My sister got scraped by a mountain bike in Zermatt on a trail! To all of you cyclists... We can share trails but please, I implore you, cycle with caution when you are on trails! You are potentially steering a weapon that can harm or kill pedestrians. All we want is ample warning so we can avoid collision? So be cautious around those curves and give us ample audio warning to get out of harms way! Safe cycling! LEt us work together!!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Some cyclists use portions of the Camino as an athletic challenge, and they are the ones who pose a danger. It is just a guess, but only 10% of the cyclists who have nearly hit me have had panniers, indicating that they are sporting cyclists, not pilgrims. I get irritated when cyclists expect me to yield and there is a suitable road about 30 meters away! A lot of the route is road and sendai, both of which are compatible with pedestrians and bicycles, with pedestrians having the right-of-way because bicycles are vehicles. Quite a number of signs prohibit motorized vehicles on the Camino footpaths, and I have never seen a violation. I hate myself for it, but I have enjoyed seeing cyclists take a tumble. I hope they enjoy it too; if danger is your business, then embrace the danger...

 

[Felipe]

I have had many pleasant talks with cyclists in albergues, and had just one bad experience with them in the Camino (with a kind of weirdo that apparently was trying to "educate" every walker in the path deliberately almost running into them, and when people shouted angrily at him, he shouted back "The Camino is for everybody!") It was the talk later in the albergue...
Since I always have walked in March or October, I wonder if the problem comes mostly with summer, when the Caminos goes really crowded, and convivence between walkers and cyclists should be more difficult -especially in the last 100 k.

 

[C clearly]

I wonder if the problem comes mostly with summer

I haven't had a dangerous encounter in March, October or November. I've been startled but the cyclists have been courteous.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Walkers, let's do our own mea culpas: walking side by side with walking buddy chatting away for one. Or walking with ear buds. But what I am particularly guilty of is switching back and forth from one side of the track to the other while juggling around stones and holes in the gound. I find myself zigzagging all day on those horrible tracks.

 

[C clearly]

Walkers, let's do our own mea culpas: walking side by side with walking buddy chatting away for one. Or walking with ear buds. But what I am particularly guilty of is switching back and forth from one side of the track to the other while juggling around stones and holes in the gound. I find myself zigzagging all day on those horrible tracks.

I don't feel at all guilty for zigzagging all day! That's why walkers need the warning, from a reasonable distance, so they can stop the erratic movements in consideration of passing cyclists.

Walkers sometimes fill the path, walking side by side and not stepping into single file so either another walker or cyclist can pass. I forgive gaggles of teenagers for this tendency, but am surprised when adults also seem oblivious to people behind them.

Also walkers often seem unaware of the rule about walking against the traffic on a road. I have often decided to follow them on the wrong side, in order to avoid the situation where cars (or bikes) need to navigate between groups of walkers on both sides of the road.

 

[Cambridge Pilgrim]

I cycled the Camino in 2014. On two occasions walkers nearly caused me injury by just walking straight out onto the ROAD I was on, without bothering to look. Much of the Frances is on public roads and many walkers seemed oblivious to the fact that there might be traffic on it.

Then there was the guy who decided to swing his walking pole round his head when we were both on the ROAD. Almost decapitated me. I think he managed a tut at me in response...

There are some very inconsiderate, thoughtless and selfish people in all walks (and cycles) of life but hey, let's just judge all cyclists the same way...

 

[Peregrino Tez]

How hard is it to require cyclists to use the roads instead of walking paths? Walkers can be elderly, or very young, or infirm, etc. OR, maybe they just want to smell the roses! All cyclists are pretty fit, almost by definition, and therefore at an advantage. Also, cyclists are always faster than walkers.

Maybe if we all agree to lodge personal statements of complaint regarding personal experience/incidents. Include date and location, make it sound serious, even if one doesn't have the culprit's name.

Can anyone suggest where to lodge complaints? A list of Camino-related local government offices, perhaps. A forum member might supply a Spanish/English text file so only a signature and contact info need be added.

If enough people are interested, I could organise an online petition as a first step. Such a petition needn't be affiliated with this forum. Or is that still a sufficiently political activity to be prohibited here?

Let me know and I'll do what I can.

Better still why not form a committee?

 

[Peregrino Tez]

Some cyclists use portions of the Camino as an athletic challenge, and they are the ones who pose a danger. It is just a guess, but only 10% of the cyclists who have nearly hit me have had panniers, indicating that they are sporting cyclists, not pilgrims. I get irritated when cyclists expect me to yield and there is a suitable road about 30 meters away! A lot of the route is road and sendai, both of which are compatible with pedestrians and bicycles, with pedestrians having the right-of-way because bicycles are vehicles. Quite a number of signs prohibit motorized vehicles on the Camino footpaths, and I have never seen a violation. I hate myself for it, but I have enjoyed seeing cyclists take a tumble. I hope they enjoy it too; if danger is your business, then embrace the danger...

As with most aspects of day to day life we should all be sympathetic to the needs of our fellow man. As both a cyclist and a walker ( I combined the two disciplines on my Camino in 2015) I am always mindful that the road/track is not there solely for my own purposes. When I was cycling and noticed walkers in front I slowed down my (already sedate) cadence in anticipation of the potential hazard ahead, rang my bell (irritating at times as it sometimes was received) and wished fellow travellers a cheery "buen camino!" as I approached, using it both as a greeting and a warning of my presence. At the end of the day it's all about respecting the fact that it is a shared experience which we should all be able to enjoy with spoiling the pilgrimage of others.

 

[GettingThere]

Some cyclists use portions of the Camino as an athletic challenge, and they are the ones who pose a danger. It is just a guess, but only 10% of the cyclists who have nearly hit me have had panniers, indicating that they are sporting cyclists, not pilgrims. I get irritated when cyclists expect me to yield and there is a suitable road about 30 meters away! A lot of the route is road and sendai, both of which are compatible with pedestrians and bicycles, with pedestrians having the right-of-way because bicycles are vehicles. Quite a number of signs prohibit motorized vehicles on the Camino footpaths, and I have never seen a violation. I hate myself for it, but I have enjoyed seeing cyclists take a tumble. I hope they enjoy it too; if danger is your business, then embrace the danger...

While walking the Camino Frances in Spring 2015, I would say the majority of cyclists we encountered were as @falcon269 describes, sporting cyclists, locals out for the day, often mountain bikers using the Camino paths for that purpose. They were (largely) the ones we saw taking risks with walkers, riding fast along winding paths with poor visibility or speeding downhill without using bells or shouting warnings. The vast majority of cycling pilgrims (or those clearly on a longer-distance ride, carrying panniers) who passed us did so carefully and slowly, and exchanged friendly "buen caminos". There were a few less considerate ones after Sarria in larger groups, but not many.

 

[wayfarer]

Some posts have been deleted and edited. Please read the rules before posting especially rule #1.

 

[Mike Trebert]

Better still why not form a committee?

I became very discouraged after this thread ran its course. Pretty hard for me not to be cynical. I first read your post as sarcastic, sorry. If you read all the way through the thread you'll see how complex the issue is. I try to suggest practical action because although I've only been posting for a year, I've seen many threads that get very complicated and very heated by some quite polarised opinion, then the thread just meanders into terminal entropy and there's no resolution. That's democracy for you. Occasionally the moderators jump in. There are rules - scroll down to the very bottom right of this page for a link. My post #3 only got 3 "likes". This makes it obvious that a petition or a committee would be dead in the water at the start line.

Edit: While I was writing this, the previous post - #70 - appeared.

Buen Camino, - Mike

 

[Deleted member 3000]

My post #3 only got 3 "likes".

Life in the Facebook era!! My self-worth is measured by "likes."

 

[Cambridge Pilgrim]

Some posts have been deleted and edited. Please read the rules before posting especially rule #1.

Just read the rules.

I see I've got away with violating rule 10!! Not a commercial avatar, however, so much as a reflection of happy memories spent looking out for the Osborne bulls during many family tours of Spain in our split-screen VW camper. All before they had to remove the brand name of course.

I think we spotted just one on the Camino. Around Logroño?

 

[Peregrino Tez]

Sarcastic? Heaven forbid!!

There are poor, inconsiderate cyclists ( freely admit that) who are obviously selfish to the needs and safety of others; don't want to come across all Nigel Farage here, but most of the "speedsters" who don't give a t@ss are the locals doing recreational rides. There are also walkers too (a minuscule number certainly) who don't take onboard that the Camino is for ALL of us and despite polite warnings regarding the imminent presence of a cyclist, refuse to acknowledge and drift from one side of the trail to the other or swing their walking pole with abandon, oblivious to the possible consequences. Just because a pilgrim rides a bike, it doesn't make them any less of a pilgrim and so long as they are considerate to others on their pilgrimage they should not be unjustly judged or vilified.

 

[Mike Trebert]

Sarcastic? Heaven forbid!!

There are poor, inconsiderate cyclists ( freely admit that) who are obviously selfish to the needs and safety of others; don't want to come across all Nigel Farage here, but most of the "speedsters" who don't give a t@ss are the locals doing recreational rides. There are also walkers too (a minuscule number certainly) who don't take onboard that the Camino is for ALL of us and despite polite warnings regarding the imminent presence of a cyclist, refuse to acknowledge and drift from one side of the trail to the other or swing their walking pole with abandon, oblivious to the possible consequences. Just because a pilgrim rides a bike, it doesn't make them any less of a pilgrim and so long as they are considerate to others on their pilgrimage they should not be unjustly judged or vilified.

Got it.

 

[wayfarer]

Just read the rules. I see I've got away with violating rule 10!!

As you don't own or promote Osborne (just guessing here) your Avatar is ok.... We are more interested in people being civil and not rude to each other.
I have a photo of the one on the Camino, must dig it up and check the location.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

refuse to acknowledge and drift from one side of the trail to the other

I have Parkinson's and hearing loss, so I do both regardless of whether there are cyclists.

Just because a pilgrim rides a bike, it doesn't make them any less of a pilgrim

And they are not less of a pilgrim if they stick to the paved road.

 

[Montana Jayne]

Just to comment that I don't believe walkers are weaving side to side for no reason. I did that when the path was difficult and I was avoiding rocks. After reading all the comments I realize that my cyclist objections are more properly directed at the local "sport" cyclists. I think this is a big issue because of the danger of serious injury. I am a greenbelt biker here at home so I am sympathetic to the cyclist issues as we have them here too. Such is life!

 

[Tracie]

Can't we just have the bikes on the right and walkers on the left. Maybe widen the path little where you can. Where there are small trails have the bikes on their own path in just those areas. I don't mind walking to the left. Everyone should be able to expierence the Camino in their own way. Buen Camino

 

[William Marques]

The idea that the path is just for walker is a very modern one no doubt it has come about because of the huge increase in the number of walker compared with the relative stability in the number of cyclists.

The first time I cycled the CF in 1998 there were 21,930 (74%) walkers and 7,737 (26%) cyclists now the figures for 2016 show 254,074 (92%) walkers and 23,357 (8%) cyclists.

Of course there was more space for everyone then.

There is no right answer to the problem just consideration between fellow pilgrims both here and on the Way.

 

[Bradypus]

The comparison of numbers of cyclists/walkers over the years is slightly complicated by a change in the nature of cycling over that time. On my first Camino Frances in 1990 I met quite a large number of cyclists but they almost all rode road touring or racing bikes - following the marked Camino along the sections of public roads, forestry roads, farm tracks and the like but taking alternatives when the yellow arrows led walkers on to sections like the rocky descent to Molinaseca. Off-road mountain bikes were a great rarity: in fact I cannot recall being passed by one at all between St Jean and Santiago. Walking again in 2002 there were more mountain bikers but the majority of cyclists were still using touring bikes. As the trend in recreational cycling has moved towards off-road bikes I think there has been a corresponding increase in the potential conflict of interests.

 

[Mike Trebert]

The comparison of numbers of cyclists/walkers over the years is slightly complicated by a change in the nature of cycling over that time. On my first Camino Frances in 1990 I met quite a large number of cyclists but they almost all rode road touring or racing bikes - following the marked Camino along the sections of public roads, forestry roads, farm tracks and the like but taking alternatives when the yellow arrows led walkers on to sections like the rocky descent to Molinaseca. Off-road mountain bikes were a great rarity: in fact I cannot recall being passed by one at all between St Jean and Santiago. Walking again in 2002 there were more mountain bikers but the majority of cyclists were still using touring bikes. As the trend in recreational cycling has moved towards off-road bikes I think there has been a corresponding increase in the potential conflict of interests.

Thanks Bradypus,

After all these posts, this one tells the full, balanced, nuanced story, it seems to me.

Mike

 

[Bradypus]

So a simple thing to remember is left shoulder to the kerb at all times when walking in France & Spain. Cyclists should then cycle with Right shoulder to the kerb at all times.

It would be nice to have such a simple absolute rule to follow. But on winding roads walkers may have to move to the "wrong" side of the road from time to time in order to see and be seen. No good trying to have a posthumous argument about blame with a driver who has just come around a tight bend and flattened you.

 

[Bradypus]

And, remember that the driver who flattened you may have come from behind you just as easily.

A couple of years ago I was a witness in a fatal accident where a walker was killed walking along a busy road after a pub visit, in rain and mist, in the dark, while wearing dark clothing and walking with his back to the traffic. I am all too aware of the risks. My comment above was intended to suggest that walking on the left or the right "at all times" is an unwise oversimplification.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

left shoulder to the kerb at all times when walking in France & Spain

After dozens of walks in Spain and France, I have not been able to discern any consistency in pedestrian conventions except for walking on the left on paved roads. Sidewalks, stores, and paths seem to be a random walk. I have been told several times by passing motorists in France to move to the left side! They are very rules oriented, and did not care about my ankles needing a different slope than the left side was offering.

 

[Tia Valeria]

While this is looking at walking habits as well as cycling - a plea to take care when the track meets the road, or crosses it. Last year we drove a section of Camino where the route continually crossed the road. For the driver there were signs to indicate that there could be pilgrims which was good. However the number who appeared from behind bushes etc and leapt into the road without looking was of real concern. Many did not look at all to see if there was any traffic coming, and some looked the 'wrong way' first. We are 'pilgrim aware' having walked, but other drivers may not be. Shared space requires thought on the road as well as on the tracks. Walking pilgrims to the left - facing oncoming traffic, wheeled traffic to the right being the 'norm', and if crossing a road look left first.

 

[Cambridge Pilgrim]

While this is looking at walking habits as well as cycling - a plea to take care when the track meets the road, or crosses it. Last year we drove a section of Camino where the route continually crossed the road. For the driver there were signs to indicate that there could be pilgrims which was good. However the number who appeared from behind bushes etc and leapt into the road without looking was of real concern. Many did not look at all to see if there was any traffic coming, and some looked the 'wrong way' first.

This absolutely does happen. I think that walkers, after a while on the Camino just get a little lulled into a false sense of security and 'forget'/don't realise they are on public highways.

If I were to cycle it again, my only other request to walkers (along with looking when crossing/entering onto roads) would be... when there are two or more of you and you hear a bell/warning from behind... don't panic(!!) and if you're going to jump out of the way, all jump in the same direction!!

We always gave loads of warning and didn't ever get close to endangering a walker apart from the occasions they stepped out in roads without looking as above... but I'm aware that some cyclists do leave their warning a little late and everyone jumping in different directions doesn't help anyone. We witnessed one occasion when a guy on the left jumped to the right (into the centre of the path), the guy on the right jumped to the left (into the centre of the path) and they head-butted each other. It was kind of funny from our viewpoint of 20 metres behind them. Of course, we were blamed for startling them with our bell. Damned if you do...

It's very difficult to set rules. We all just have to apply common sense and common courtesy to others. Remember the Camino isn't there just for YOU it's there for ALL of us.

 

[Marco Romão]

I did the Camino for the first time in a bicycle and am planing to do it again in 2017... what I liked the most was the "sharing" of experiences and the Camino it self. As I realized after 30km that I should have bough a bell (bought already for 2017) I always gave priority to walkers and tried to avoid shouting or scaring those who were enjoying some music along the way - exception made to a German lady that in a narrow path after 100m realized she was being followed closely....
Walker, we also want to make the Camino in our way, just be aware that we can come from behind and, when listening music if possible, let some free space for us to pass.
Cyclists, the bell is really important and it costs +/-1€. We are going faster and coming from behind, so care for your safety and walkers too...enjoy the Camino.
It doesn't matter the percentage, sharing the Camino must be in the mind of both types of pilgrims. Don't rush, you will not enjoy all the Camino has to ofer...

 

[Cambridge Pilgrim]

And they are not less of a pilgrim if they stick to the paved road.

No but they can be less alive!! There are some roads which track the way that are really just not safe for cycling on.

If anyone on here has ever had the willies put up them by a cyclist whizzing past, then I certainly out-did that when an enormous logger truck overtook us within 18-inches on our last day.

 

[wayfarer]

Just read the rules.

I see I've got away with violating rule 10!! Not a commercial avatar, however, so much as a reflection of happy memories spent looking out for the Osborne bulls during many family tours of Spain in our split-screen VW camper. All before they had to remove the brand name of course.

I think we spotted just one on the Camino. Around Logroño?

You are right, outside Logrono.

 

[Cambridge Pilgrim]

Thank you Wayfarer!

...and yes, you are correct, I am not the owner of the company in my avatar... more's the pity!!

Cheers!

 

[John Briscoe]

I'm sorry to say I found cyclists to be a great hazard while walking from St Jean to Santiago this summer. The speeds they zoomed by alarming. I assisted one as an ambulance was called and had to make the difficult journey to help. He flew down a hill around a blind corner almost hitting a pilgrim walking. She flew for the ditch to avoid being hit by the cyclist. I too took the ditch a few times. No ear buds in...by the time you hear them they are on you. Very dangerous combination I didn't expect.

It is in the same way that bike riders talk about car drivers. But it is custom and law in some areas and it is a requirement for a car to give way to a bike rider and they in turn give way to a walker. Ringing your bell to get you out of the way, is not giving way but at least it gives you a heads up as even if they are in the wrong, you will be the one hurt.

 

[Elizabeth-o]

I'm sorry to say I found cyclists to be a great hazard while walking from St Jean to Santiago this summer. The speeds they zoomed by alarming. I assisted one as an ambulance was called and had to make the difficult journey to help. He flew down a hill around a blind corner almost hitting a pilgrim walking. She flew for the ditch to avoid being hit by the cyclist. I too took the ditch a few times. No ear buds in...by the time you hear them they are on you. Very dangerous combination I didn't expect.

Yes, I had some near misses, too. I just don't understand why they ALL don't use a bell, as some do. It 's just plain rude to ride in such a careless manner. I got to the point where, as one zoomed by me unannounced, I would tell them in Spanish to announce themselves ("Anunciate, por favor.")...Sure, they weren't all Spanish, but...

 

[Icacos]

Bicyclists sometimes wear those little rear-view mirrors attached t0 their helmet / glasses so they could see who's coming up behind them. Perhaps walking pilgrims might have to resort to those too. Heaven forbid!